And I raaaaaan, I raaaan so far awaaaayyyy

[Happyfeet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Pq0xYr3L4

[Alarti0001]

Lol was this from ct today?

[Thana8088]

Oww! That's going to leave a mark.

[Alarti0001]

http://www.thelonelyisland.com/video/iran-so-far

[quido]

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[Alarti0001]

Well Flawless Entry's raid strategy is revealed! Tag something and wait for TMO to kill it. You guys are truly L33T.

[Harazzer]

Yea apparently effective today FTE + a raid force in zone is no longer sufficient to get a mob, now apparently at the discretion of Ephi, you must also make a valid attempt to kill the mob as defined by the GM. Can someone go rewrite the server rules please. And gratz on the ct loot :P.

[Paumad]

At least you ran to him Sominus, for that we salute you.

[Alarti0001]

Yea apparently effective today FTE + a raid force in zone is no longer sufficient to get a mob, now apparently at the discretion of Ephi, you must also make a valid attempt to kill the mob as defined by the GM. Can someone go rewrite the server rules please. And gratz on the ct loot :P.

Dude 0 damage from an FE member on the mob? Are you trying to convince us you planned to engage CT?

[Heebo]

Yea apparently effective today FTE + a raid force in zone is no longer sufficient to get a mob, now apparently at the discretion of Ephi, you must also make a valid attempt to kill the mob as defined by the GM. Can someone go rewrite the server rules please. And gratz on the ct loot :P.

Wasn't this the reason you guys got VS, the only raid target FE has killed to date, even though BDA had FTE?

[Alarti0001]

Wasn't this the reason you guys got VS, the only raid target FE has killed to date, even though BDA had FTE?

Lets give them their fair due... Didn't they get a Sev or something?

[Harazzer]

Dude 0 damage from an FE member on the mob? Are you trying to convince us you planned to engage CT?

I took the DT and TMO sharked my pull. At the very least its raid interference.

Wasn't this the reason you guys got VS, the only raid target FE has killed to date, even though BDA had FTE?

Actually on that one we killed it with 9 people while 45 TMO stood around holding their dicks watching. And we have gotten many raid targets my son, maybe do the required reading before vomiting bullshit into the thread.

[Alarti0001]

I took the DT and TMO sharked my pull. At the very least its raid interference.



Actually on that one we killed it with 9 people while 45 TMO stood around holding their dicks watching. And we have gotten many raid targets my son, maybe do the required reading before vomiting bullshit into the thread.

http://i.imgur.com/k2JSy.jpg

[Alarti0001]

I caught me a live one !

Also, you were Pulling CT?

About, that required reading lol

[Paumad]

CT pull haha. You trully are the best, wizard, ever...At raging.

[Heebo]

I took the DT and TMO sharked my pull. At the very least its raid interference.



Actually on that one we killed it with 9 people while 45 TMO stood around holding their dicks watching. And we have gotten many raid targets my son, maybe do the required reading before vomiting bullshit into the thread.

Receiving loot is not the same as killing raid targets. And yeah, I already gave you credit for the VS. But back to my point - it's not like this is something new. No need to cry GM favoritism towards TMO when FE has benefited from the same ruling.

[Loly Taa]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y224/DuncDaMonk/Silly/MonocleCat.jpg

I ran to him

[Alarti0001]

CT pull haha. You trully are the best, wizard, ever...At raging.

Best at wizarding too!

[Allizia]

There was 0 effort put in by FE.

TMO broke in, killed Draco, cleared area around CT, got trained twice and still charged/killed CT.

FE sat back holding their dicks and attempted snipe with 1 person, do you really feel that you have any claim here?

[SamwiseRed]

Just take a look, its in a book...

http://justshortofcrazy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/reading-rainbow-2.jpg

[Happyfeet]

I took the DT and TMO sharked my pull. At the very least its raid interference.


Can't tell if serious... you took the 2nd DT... brain melting...

[Harazzer]

There was 0 effort put in by FE.

TMO broke in, killed Draco, cleared area around CT, got trained twice and still charged/killed CT.

FE sat back holding their dicks and attempted snipe with 1 person, do you really feel that you have any claim here?

TMO has literally done it dozens of times lol.

[doraf]

Wasn't this the reason you guys got VS, the only raid target FE has killed to date, even though BDA had FTE?

You're way behind on your current events.

[Harazzer]

CT pull haha. You trully are the best, wizard, ever...At raging.

You boys seem like the upset ones, especially all the hate tells i got from TMO ragers before you whined enough to get the GM to hand you loot. Just unfortunate that Ephi got carried downstream in the river of tears.

[Alarti0001]

TMO has literally done it dozens of times lol.

Prove it ! Literally prove it.

[Eccezan]

You boys seem like the upset ones, especially all the hate tells i got from TMO ragers before you whined enough to get the GM to hand you loot. Just unfortunate that Ephi got carried downstream in the river of tears.

http://dinakelberman.com/simpsons%20gifs/running.gif

[Heebo]

You're way behind on your current events.

Haha, I think I've got a pretty good grasp of current events. :)
it's only fair when things go their way.

[Sun Nov 04 09:17:02 2012] Doraf says, 'lol imagine that gms give tmo the loot once again '
[Sun Nov 04 09:17:14 2012] Sirken shouts 'DORAF'
[Sun Nov 04 09:17:22 2012] Dudeisbeast says, 'Hail, Doraf's corpse'

[Alarti0001]

Haha, I think I've got a pretty good grasp of current events. :)

Doraf has been on the raid scene for about 3 minutes and thinks he has it figured out!

[doraf]

Doraf has been on the raid scene for about 3 minutes and thinks he has it figured out!

I've been on your momma for three years and I still cant figure that fat bitch out.

[Alarti0001]

I've been on your momma for three years and I still cant figure that fat bitch out.

Really? ...........

[Ephi]

The ruling was fair.

I've had a lot of people ask me a lot of different questions and propose a lot of different scenarios.

The spirit of the FTE rule is to award the kill to those who were the first to attempt it. Yes, guilds have gotten away with FTE sniping in the past. Yes, there's a chance they'll get away with it in the future.

It's our job as staff to make the best ruling based on our judgement of the situation, and the facts at hand. I was watching the engage. TMO did not "interfere" with a pull, because the entire raid force was running toward CT. In fact, Drui of TMO took a DT before Scorchin did, and the rest of the force was right behind him.

[Mon Nov 12 11:05:19 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'Denizens of Fear, your master commands you to come forth to his aid!!
[Mon Nov 12 11:05:19 2012] Cazic Thule says 'DRUI'
-- Authors note: Reset somewhere in here --
[Mon Nov 12 11:05:24 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'Denizens of Fear, your master commands you to come forth to his aid!!
[Mon Nov 12 11:05:28 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'SCORCHIN'


TMOs entire raid force was under CT when Scorchin was DTd. No other FE were anywhere near him. The encounter logs support that statement.

Like I said, the FTE rules are there to provide the best level playing ground for the server and all guilds who want to participate. These are not hard and fast, 100% FTE always wins rules. It certainly wins when there are no other facts at the table. But saying FTE is the only thing that matters is like saying you can tag FTE while simultaneously training the other raid... there would be other facts there that inform the decision.

I was in the zone and watched the encounter. I ruled for awarding to TMO and Sirken agrees with my ruling given the facts made available to us (namely, my eyes and the encounter log).

This DOES NOT mean that FTE should become FTD (First to Damage) or some such nonsense that I saw mentioned in OOC or a tell (can't remember which now). FTE is valid as long as the guild is making an attempt at killing the raid mob, and no other factors are present.

And for those of you asking when FTE shout will be implemented -- CT technically does this already. The combination of 'Denizens of fear...' + a DT shout is equivalent to an FTE shout.

[Harazzer]

The ruling was fair.

I've had a lot of people ask me a lot of different questions and propose a lot of different scenarios.

The spirit of the FTE rule is to award the kill to those who were the first to attempt it. Yes, guilds have gotten away with FTE sniping in the past. Yes, there's a chance they'll get away with it in the future.

It's our job as staff to make the best ruling based on our judgement of the situation, and the facts at hand. I was watching the engage. TMO did not "interfere" with a pull, because the entire raid force was running toward CT. In fact, Drui of TMO took a DT before Scorchin did, and the rest of the force was right behind him.




TMOs entire raid force was under CT when Scorchin was DTd. No other FE were anywhere near him. The encounter logs support with that statement.

Like I said, the FTE rules are there to provide the best level playing ground for the server and all guilds who want to participate. These are not hard and fast, 100% FTE always wins rules. It certainly wins when there are no other facts at the table. But saying FTE is the only thing that matters is like saying you can tag FTE while simultaneously training the other raid... there would be other facts there that inform the decision.

I was in the zone and watched the encounter. I ruled for awarding to TMO and Sirken agrees with my ruling given the facts made available to us (namely, my eyes and the encounter log).

This DOES NOT mean that FTE should become FTD (First to Damage) or some such nonsense that I saw mentioned in OOC or a tell (can't remember which now). FTE is valid as long as the guild is making an attempt at killing the raid mob, and no other factors are present.

And for those of you asking when FTE shout will be implemented -- CT technically does this already. The combination of 'Denizens of fear...' + a DT shout is equivalent to an FTE shout.

So in summation there is no question i had FTE, but you feel that TMO deserves the loot instead.

[hatelore]

I've been on your momma for three years and I still cant figure that fat bitch out.
This gave me a good chuckle, I dont chuckle much on Monday, but when I do... I chuckle good! So to you I say... Cheers for the chuckle!

[doraf]

Too far bro. His mother is a classy lady.

Damn it! You found her G spot before me?? See, the P1999 raid scene is way easier in comparrison.

Sit back, let TMO get fat and then come in with enough numbers to make them cry. Seems to be working well. This board is filled with crybabies now. ;)

[Ele]

And for those of you asking when FTE shout will be implemented -- CT technically does this already. The combination of 'Denizens of fear...' + a DT shout is equivalent to an FTE shout.

So Death Touch = FTE now? What about Innoruuk?

[Alarti0001]

So in summation there is no question i had FTE, but you feel that TMO deserves the loot instead.

In summation Drui got FTE.

/Thread

[hatelore]

The fte rule in its current form ( I thinks it's been changed,bended,re-wrote) whatever, is one of the number one reasons that raiding on p1999 sucks hairy donkey nuts... and why alot of players have said f this and quit outright. Fte shouts etc can't come quick enough. And ephi, without ct saying the players name or what have you, no one but gm's know exactly which guild has fte, one of the main reasons why fte shout is needed. So the other guild can back off.

So by your logic or interpretation of the rule, as long as you get fte then throw your 7 man raid force at the raid target, you're in the clear? That doesn't seem right...

[Alarti0001]

Damn it! You found her G spot before me?? See, the P1999 raid scene is way easier in comparrison.

Sit back, let TMO get fat and then come in with enough numbers to make them cry. Seems to be working well. This board is filled with crybabies now. ;)

Poor kid is still looking for the G-spot. Its roughly an inch and a half in man, ventral wall. Its usually non responsive if the girl isn't excited, maybe that is the problem? You can't excite a woman?

[doraf]

Poor kid is still looking for the G-spot. Its roughly an inch and a half in man, ventral wall. Its usually non responsive if the girl isn't excited, maybe that is the problem? You can't excite a woman?

Dude! I think I'm stuck under her armpit flab. Anyone got a map and compass I can barrow?

[hatelore]

Poor kid is still looking for the G-spot. Its roughly an inch and a half in man, ventral wall. Its usually non responsive if the girl isn't excited, maybe that is the problem? You can't excite a woman?
you do realize you are talking about your mom right? That just isn't right man...

[Alarti0001]

Dude! I think I'm stuck under her armpit flab. Anyone got a map and compass I can barrow?

She gets WIFI in there?

[Alarti0001]

you do realize you are talking about your mom right? That just isn't right man...

Why my mom deserves lovin, even if from an inept lover.

[hatelore]

Why my mom deserves lovin, even if from an inept lover.

You just brought sad... To a whole new level.

[Ephi]

So by your logic or interpretation of the rule, as long as you get fte then throw your 7 man raid force at the raid target, you're in the clear? That doesn't seem right...

Not at all what I'm saying.

Every situation is judged by its unique circumstances. Hence the reason FE was awarded a VS kill even though they did not technically get FTE in the encounter log.

We do what we can to eliminate all the different variables that could merit a kill to someone who perhaps does not deserve it. But we also make mistakes from time to time. I saw no attempt by FE to actually kill CT. In a 34 second fight, not one other person outside of Scorchin got onto the aggro list.

I made the best call I could, but like I said in fear, if anyone has evidence that speaks against my ruling, Sirken and I would both be happy to review it. You know where to find us.

And if some think I favor one guild or another, you are sorely mistaken. I really have no dog in this fight. Just a volunteer trying to keep the playing grounds as fair as possible. Put another way: I could give a shit about guild XYZ over guild ABC.

[Alarti0001]

You just brought sad... To a whole new level.

Oooo explain how !

[hatelore]

But enough of the de-rail... So the new rule is, have fte and be sure to run your 4 or 5 men to the mob and braveheart it? Clarification humbly requested .

[doraf]

She gets WIFI in there?

I taped my USB modem and minifridge to her head before I went in. Altari was nice enough to get an IP Exemption so that I can play EQ too.

[hatelore]

Sorry just saw your post ephi. I wasn't there nor am I trying to be an ass . Was just curious. Thanks for the clarification...

[Rovas]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y224/DuncDaMonk/Silly/MonocleCat.jpg

I ran to him

1/10

kill yourself

[Lazortag]

Is this thread about Iran?

[doraf]

You guys should never let Altari and I post in the same threads. We are the masters of derail.

What if we did some type of random roll between the guilds. The winning guild stays and fights the mob w/o interruption assuming they can kill within a reasonable time. The other guild looks for something else. There is no more summoning a GM into every single raid encounter and loot stays on the guild that killed it.

[Harazzer]

Not at all what I'm saying.

Every situation is judged by its unique circumstances. Hence the reason FE was awarded a VS kill even though they did not technically get FTE in the encounter log.

We do what we can to eliminate all the different variables that could merit a kill to someone who perhaps does not deserve it. But we also make mistakes from time to time. I saw no attempt by FE to actually kill CT. In a 34 second fight, not one other person outside of Scorchin got onto the aggro list.

I made the best call I could, but like I said in fear, if anyone has evidence that speaks against my ruling, Sirken and I would both be happy to review it. You know where to find us.

And if some think I favor one guild or another, you are sorely mistaken. I really have no dog in this fight. Just a volunteer trying to keep the playing grounds as fair as possible. Put another way: I could give a shit about guild XYZ over guild ABC.

VS was an entirely different situation. Nothing about that applies here.

In this situation we had a raid force, I got FTE, then TMO Jumped on the mob and killed it. When can you say FTE snipe is any different than initiating a pull and what they did is any different from them KSing it? FTE is supposed to take all of the GM discretion out of a given situation, make it so it is not a call based on favoritism but one of hard evidence. Every other time the FTE situation has come up its "soandso got fte, congrats guild of soandso!" but this time we are all about "the Spirit of FTE" whatever the fuck that is.

And yea, you and every GM in history is an unbiased bastion of blind justice. Never heard that before either.

I don't care about the mob, or the loot which was shitty as i understand it... What i care about is the idea that the precedents and rules of the server can be whimsically overturned by a new GM that can clearly be influenced by cryspam of TMO.

[hatelore]

That sounds great, until you realize your raid force was in the zone first, and then the slackers who got there after you win the roll.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Dude 0 damage from an FE member on the mob? Are you trying to convince us you planned to engage CT?

right, but if you are unsure of FTE you are not supposed to engage the mob. this will be fixed when fte shout comes in, just a poor call against precedent for now, though each GM has interpreted the raid rules at their own discretion so far.

[Alarti0001]

VS was an entirely different situation. Nothing about that applies here.

In this situation we had a raid force, I got FTE, then TMO Jumped on the mob and killed it. When can you say FTE snipe is any different than initiating a pull and what they did is any different from them KSing it? FTE is supposed to take all of the GM discretion out of a given situation, make it so it is not a call based on favoritism but one of hard evidence. Every other time the FTE situation has come up its "soandso got fte, congrats guild of soandso!" but this time we are all about "the Spirit of FTE" whatever the fuck that is.

And yea, you and every GM in history is an unbiased bastion of blind justice. Never heard that before either.

I don't care about the mob, or the loot which was shitty as i understand it... What i care about is the idea that the precedents and rules of the server can be whimsically overturned by a new GM that can clearly be influenced by cryspam of TMO.

Reread his last post. Drui got FTE =)

[Tasslehofp99]

Damn I had high hopes for this thread.

[Harazzer]

Reread his last post. Drui got FTE =)

Yea you said that before, and in classic alarti fashion I couldn't tell if you were trolling or just that fucking retarded. Apparently its the latter. Clearly he was hit by the zonewide random dt since my name was first on the encounter log. Otherwise it he would have been on the aggro list.

[Tasslehofp99]

Reread his last post. Drui got FTE =)

Then that directly contradicts what was originally stated, as shown in the screenshot posted in the original post of this thread.

[Rovas]

Damn I had high hopes for this thread.

Never have hopes or feelings in RnF, you will only end up hurting yourself.

[Alarti0001]

Then that directly contradicts what was originally stated, as shown in the screenshot posted in the original post of this thread.

Just like sending one man in to FTE while your guild does nothing contradicts a kill attempt.

[Alarti0001]

Yea you said that before, and in classic alarti fashion I couldn't tell if you were trolling or just that fucking retarded. Apparently its the latter. Clearly he was hit by the zonewide random dt since my name was first on the encounter log. Otherwise it he would have been on the aggro list.

Man you are easy. TROLLOLOLOL

http://i.imgur.com/LHpaw.jpg

[Ephi]

VS was an entirely different situation. Nothing about that applies here.

In this situation we had a raid force, I got FTE, then TMO Jumped on the mob and killed it. When can you say FTE snipe is any different than initiating a pull and what they did is any different from them KSing it? FTE is supposed to take all of the GM discretion out of a given situation, make it so it is not a call based on favoritism but one of hard evidence. Every other time the FTE situation has come up its "soandso got fte, congrats guild of soandso!" but this time we are all about "the Spirit of FTE" whatever the fuck that is.

And yea, you and every GM in history is an unbiased bastion of blind justice. Never heard that before either.

I don't care about the mob, or the loot which was shitty as i understand it... What i care about is the idea that the precedents and rules of the server can be whimsically overturned by a new GM that can clearly be influenced by cryspam of TMO.

Yes, you're right, it's a different situation, although the ruling was based on similar grounds.

And for the record, I received zero tells from any members of TMO before making the ruling. Nor was I watching OOC/Shout. I also helped rule for you guys on the VS kill.

If you think I favor TMO, take it up with Rogean please.

[Happyfeet]

I think you favor halflings. COME AT ME, TRY TO REFUTE THAT!

[Ephi]

I think you favor halflings. COME AT ME, TRY TO REFUTE THAT!

This I cannot deny.

Stepping out of this thread for good now. Take care guys.

[Eccezan]

But enough of the de-rail... So the new rule is, have fte and be sure to run your 4 or 5 men to the mob and braveheart it? Clarification humbly requested .

How bout.............do what it takes to make a legitimate CT engage?

Legitimate = CC fear adds and engage with the amount of people necessary to actually kill him?

Not sure what there is to argue about when there was a GM WATCHING your bullshit during the raid. In another time...gm's watching what you guys did today might rule raid interference and you might be suspended for it.

Lucky for you they've gotten compassionate from the pathetic attempts your leadership calls competition.

[Diggles]

I think you favor halflings. COME AT ME, TRY TO REFUTE THAT!

Heallun is more of a halfling than anyone on this server can hope to be.

Ephi might be close.

[Alarti0001]

Not sure what there is to argue about when there was a GM WATCHING your bullshit during the raid. In another time...gm's watching what you guys did today might rule raid interference and you might be suspended for it.



I'm so glad those 2 are gone!

[hatelore]

This I cannot deny.

Stepping out of this thread for good now. Take care guys.

still waiting on the dark elf illusion!!@$%

[Tarathiel]

this all sounds like soooo much fun

[Splorf22]

Yes, you're right, it's a different situation, although the ruling was based on similar grounds.

And for the record, I received zero tells from any members of TMO before making the ruling. Nor was I watching OOC/Shout. I also helped rule for you guys on the VS kill.

If you think I favor TMO, take it up with Rogean please.

The question is whether its better to have simple, well-defined rules which are sometimes unfair or to have flexible, more ambiguous rules that attempt to cover more situations correctly. It seems that FE was basically trying to exploit the FTE rules, this offended you, and so you awarded the loot to TMO. I agree that one guild charging a raid mob with another guy sneaking in and trying to FTE snipe is silly. But when you break your own rules you lose credibility.

What this should tell you is that you need to fix the system. There are lots of ways, for example: after a person from guild x gets FTE, the mob enters in to a 'guild seek and destroy mode' where players from other guilds cannot damage the mob or enter its hate list for ~20 seconds. This gives the non-FTE guild time to back off and let the sniper wipe. Or you could ditch FTE and add up damage by guild.

The point is you need something consistent without too much potential for exploitation.

[Tasslehofp99]

The question is whether its better to have simple, well-defined rules which are sometimes unfair or to have flexible, more ambiguous rules that attempt to cover more situations correctly. It seems that FE was basically trying to exploit the FTE rules, this offended you, and so you awarded the loot to TMO. I agree that one guild charging a raid mob with another guy sneaking in and trying to FTE snipe is silly. But when you break your own rules you lose credibility.

What this should tell you is that you need to fix the system. There are lots of ways, for example: after a person from guild x gets FTE, the mob enters in to a 'guild seek and destroy mode' where players from other guilds cannot damage the mob or enter its hate list for ~20 seconds. This gives the non-FTE guild time to back off and let the sniper wipe. Or you could ditch FTE and add up damage by guild.

The point is you need something consistent without too much potential for exploitation.

This.

[doraf]

OK, this thread is boring again. I got the GPS coordinates for Altari's mom and anybody needs them! Let's keep a good woman happy. :)

[Diggles]

OK, this thread is boring again. I got the GPS coordinates for Altari's mom and anybody needs them! Let's keep a good woman happy. :)
who is altari?????

[doraf]

who is altari?????

Alarti. "and" also = "if" if we're correcting my posts.

[Tasslehofp99]

Alarti. "and" also = "if" if we're correcting my posts.

God doraf, post your rants and flames with precise grammatical acuity or gtfo. :mad:

[radditsu]

But enough of the de-rail... So the new rule is, have fte and be sure to run your 4 or 5 men to the mob and braveheart it? Clarification humbly requested .

http://i.imgur.com/H5QVZ.jpg

This is my face on every engage from now on.

[Karafa]

Alarti talking about exciting a woman, yet his RL photo on the TMO threads from back in the day is beyond embarrassing

[Hailto]

So it only took a few weeks before FE and TMO started to shit all over eachother. I gotta hand it to you guys though i thought it would take less time before we started to see threads like this.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti talking about exciting a woman, yet his RL photo on the TMO threads from back in the day is beyond embarrassing

LOL oh really?

[Paumad]

The question is whether its better to have simple, well-defined rules which are sometimes unfair or to have flexible, more ambiguous rules that attempt to cover more situations correctly. It seems that FE was basically trying to exploit the FTE rules, this offended you, and so you awarded the loot to TMO. I agree that one guild charging a raid mob with another guy sneaking in and trying to FTE snipe is silly. But when you break your own rules you lose credibility.

What this should tell you is that you need to fix the system. There are lots of ways, for example: after a person from guild x gets FTE, the mob enters in to a 'guild seek and destroy mode' where players from other guilds cannot damage the mob or enter its hate list for ~20 seconds. This gives the non-FTE guild time to back off and let the sniper wipe. Or you could ditch FTE and add up damage by guild.

The point is you need something consistent without too much potential for exploitation.

I pretty much agree Loraen. But the FTE rule was never implemented to let a couple people snipe an encounter. The latter is a loophole exploited by players, not a GM misinterpretation, hence the case by case ruling needed sadly. I always understood the FTE thing with a tacit "must at least attempt at killing the target" part. The snipes are just rule lawyering, and you'll always have that as long as you have rules and competing guilds I'm afraid.
I'm all for clearer rules,as you are, but I think GM rulings will always be necessary, especially when they're present at said encounters.

[Hailto]

Alarti talking about exciting a woman, yet his RL photo on the TMO threads from back in the day is beyond embarrassing

You mean thats not him in his avatar?

[stormlord]

YOU"VE GOT TO SEE THIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54IN3URGuM8

[Alarti0001]

You mean thats not him in his avatar?

No my hair isn't grey.

[Eccezan]

It's true, most of TMO is made up of the actual actors who were in Oceans 11.

[radditsu]

So it only took a few weeks before FE and TMO started to shit all over eachother. I gotta hand it to you guys though i thought it would take less time before we started to see threads like this.


We took the first week off after forming to get organized. So yeah.

[Autotune]

Not at all what I'm saying.

Every situation is judged by its unique circumstances. Hence the reason FE was awarded a VS kill even though they did not technically get FTE in the encounter log.

We do what we can to eliminate all the different variables that could merit a kill to someone who perhaps does not deserve it. But we also make mistakes from time to time. I saw no attempt by FE to actually kill CT. In a 34 second fight, not one other person outside of Scorchin got onto the aggro list.

I made the best call I could, but like I said in fear, if anyone has evidence that speaks against my ruling, Sirken and I would both be happy to review it. You know where to find us.

And if some think I favor one guild or another, you are sorely mistaken. I really have no dog in this fight. Just a volunteer trying to keep the playing grounds as fair as possible. Put another way: I could give a shit about guild XYZ over guild ABC.

how much is a guild looking at paying to make you give a shit about them.

[Autotune]

Also, how do you get on the kill encounter log being the first DT'd?

I've never seen that one before, I thought the first person to take a DT would appear on their own encounter log.

That is how snipes have happened in the past.

Wait for a guild to send in their DT squad and be the first to aggro immediately after. That way you are on the encounter log with the kill.

This is new to me.

[Hasbinlulz]

It's true, most of TMO is made up of the actual actors who were in Oceans 11.
Shitty remake actors. Nothing like the originals.

[Hasbinlulz]

(Yes, it is true that the old school members of IB are also the actual Rat Pack.)

[radditsu]

Also, how do you get on the kill encounter log being the first DT'd?

I've never seen that one before, I thought the first person to take a DT would appear on their own encounter log.

That is how snipes have happened in the past.

Wait for a guild to send in their DT squad and be the first to aggro immediately after. That way you are on the encounter log with the kill.

This is new to me.

I'm Pretty sure it was a timing thing, he took the DT as they were aggroing, before the server registered the mob to reset.

I want my barb hammer guys.

[Autotune]

I'm Pretty sure it was a timing thing, he took the DT as they were aggroing, before the server registered the mob to reset.

I want my barb hammer guys.

so you mean to say, someone managed to hit CT between the time that Sorchin aggro'd and got immediately DT'd?

That is fucking,















amazing.

[radditsu]

so you mean to say, someone managed to hit CT between the time that Sorchin aggro'd and got immediately DT'd?

That is fucking,















amazing.


Well you have that and the server latency before he resets, but yeah it looks like that happened.

[Hasbinlulz]

amazing.
lol

[Hasbinlulz]

Well you have that and the server latency before he resets, but yeah it looks like that happened.
lol

[radditsu]

lol

[Hasbinlulz]

lol

[Autotune]

Well you have that and the server latency before he resets, but yeah it looks like that happened.

From all the times this stuff was brought up before. I remember it working like this.


Person grabs aggro, gets fucking DT - 1st encounter log.

CT is in seek mode for Xsecs.

2nd Person aggros (FTE) BossMerb - 2nd encounter log (kill log).


He'd never reset.

For what has been said in this thread, it would look like this.

Person A grabs aggro, Person B hits target, Person A gets DT'd. Basically Person A and Person B would somehow have to hit CT at the exact same time.

Still, guess that it could be possible? Still thinking it's not tho.

[radditsu]

From all the times this stuff was brought up before. I remember it working like this.


Person grabs aggro, gets fucking DT - 1st encounter log.

CT is in seek mode for Xsecs.

2nd Person aggros (FTE) BossMerb - 2nd encounter log (kill log).


He'd never reset.

For what has been said in this thread, it would look like this.

Person A grabs aggro, Person B hits target, Person A gets DT'd. Basically Person A and Person B would somehow have to hit CT at the exact same time.

Still, guess that it could be possible? Still thinking it's not tho.

I'm just going by what the gm said. Zero idea how it happened. I am speculating that it would have to be lag at some point. For example, Spiroc lords do not DT instantly, sometimes you can run a good long way before he does. I assume all DT mobs work the same way. It's dependent on the lag , range to mob, etc etc.

[Autotune]

I'm just going by what the gm said. Zero idea how it happened. I am speculating that it would have to be lag at some point. For example, Spiroc lords do not DT instantly, sometimes you can run a good long way before he does. I assume all DT mobs work the same way. It's dependent on the lag , range to mob, etc etc.

Never seen CT lag his any lol, but I suppose that's possible.

I mean, he is known for double DTing.

[radditsu]

Never seen CT lag his any lol, but I suppose that's possible.

I mean, he is known for double DTing.

Fear is the buggiest zone in the game with more than like...a dozen people in it. Anything is possible with it.

[Ele]

CT, in a normal state, DTs the first person to aggro and goes into seek mode/resets, and starts the zone wide DT timer.

CT then has a second DT (more like super-HT) that he does not always immediate use upon a second person engaging him. CT can melee 1-3 people to death before using this DT.

What can happen:

Person A aggros.
CT DT#1 Person A -> Seek mode
Person B aggros.
Person C aggros.
Person D aggros.
CT DT#2 -> Kills top of aggro list, but two other people are also on the aggro list so he never resets and goes for one of them.

[Raavak]

Yea apparently you must also make a valid attempt to kill the mob as defined by the GM.
Wot? Actually try to kill a mob in order to be elligible for its loot? Whodathunk.

[Tanthallas]

The fact of the matter is that there is nothing stopping CT from being pulled to a raid force - if that is what Sominus said he was doing, anyone's opinion of the cost/benefit of pulling CT is irrelevant. There was a legitimate raid force waiting...it is of zero consequence that TMO engaged it while Sominus was pulling it.

Any rule implemented will have downsides to it. A rule is maintained because it is deemed (by whoever is in authority as such) that the UPSIDES outweigh the DOWNSIDES. The upsides and the downsides coexist. You can place parameters on the rule, such as defining what 'kiting' or 'delaying' is relative to 'engaging, but I fail to see how in this case there was any such parameter put in place other than Ephi's personal opinion about how to interpret what is and is not a 'legitimate' FTE. This is not a parameter, this is a complete reinterpretation of the rule. FTE is first on agro list, given a 'raid force' ready to engage - PERIOD. If another guild ends up killing it, it simply doesn't matter. There have been countless instances of this.

All you are doing is setting the stage for the next conflict, you are not fixing anything. Next time the raid force will just charge TMO instead of trying to pull him, because apparently that is the only relevant factor in this decision.

[Tanthallas]

Next time the raid force will just charge TMO instead of trying to pull him

fail. I think everyone but Alarti understands the point, however...

[Alarti0001]

The fact of the matter is that there is nothing stopping CT from being pulled to a raid force - if that is what Sominus said he was doing, anyone's opinion of the cost/benefit of pulling CT is irrelevant. There was a legitimate raid force waiting...it is of zero consequence that TMO engaged it while Sominus was pulling it.

Any rule implemented will have downsides to it. A rule is maintained because it is deemed (by whoever is in authority as such) that the UPSIDES outweigh the DOWNSIDES. The upsides and the downsides coexist. You can place parameters on the rule, such as defining what 'kiting' or 'delaying' is relative to 'engaging, but I fail to see how in this case there was any such parameter put in place other than Ephi's personal opinion about how to interpret what is and is not a 'legitimate' FTE. This is not a parameter, this is a complete reinterpretation of the rule. FTE is first on agro list, given a 'raid force' ready to engage - PERIOD. If another guild ends up killing it, it simply doesn't matter. There have been countless instances of this.

All you are doing is setting the stage for the next conflict, you are not fixing anything. Next time the raid force will just charge TMO instead of trying to pull him, because apparently that is the only relevant factor in this decision.

LOL pathetic lawyer.

ITT FE MAD that they can't kill raid targets without TMO DPS.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Question: Assume TMO was not near CT when Scorchin was DT'd. Was it more likely than not that CT would have reset before any puller could have gotten on the aggro list after Scorchin's DT?

In short, had TMO waited ~two more seconds to engage, would Scorchin's aggro have been erased from the kill due to mob reset?

[Hasbinlulz]

Why does tmo still need CT?

[Autotune]

The fact of the matter is that there is nothing stopping CT from being pulled to a raid force - if that is what Sominus said he was doing, anyone's opinion of the cost/benefit of pulling CT is irrelevant. There was a legitimate raid force waiting...it is of zero consequence that TMO engaged it while Sominus was pulling it.

Any rule implemented will have downsides to it. A rule is maintained because it is deemed (by whoever is in authority as such) that the UPSIDES outweigh the DOWNSIDES. The upsides and the downsides coexist. You can place parameters on the rule, such as defining what 'kiting' or 'delaying' is relative to 'engaging, but I fail to see how in this case there was any such parameter put in place other than Ephi's personal opinion about how to interpret what is and is not a 'legitimate' FTE. This is not a parameter, this is a complete reinterpretation of the rule. FTE is first on agro list, given a 'raid force' ready to engage - PERIOD. If another guild ends up killing it, it simply doesn't matter. There have been countless instances of this.

All you are doing is setting the stage for the next conflict, you are not fixing anything. Next time the raid force will just charge TMO instead of trying to pull him, because apparently that is the only relevant factor in this decision.

Please, explain the method he was using to pull CT to your raid.

Seems he got FUCKING DT'd, thus wasn't pulling shit to anything.

[radditsu]

Question: Assume TMO was not near CT when Scorchin was DT'd. Was it more likely than not that CT would have reset before any puller could have gotten on the aggro list after Scorchin's DT?

In short, had TMO waited ~two more seconds to engage, would Scorchin's aggro have been erased from the kill due to mob reset?


In theory, yes. However from what I heard in vent during you guys were already in aggro range, and we had a guy ready for the pickup, but didn't due to all of you guys there. We got fte and had no chance for an attempt due to this. I personally do not care about the loot, but fte rulings that can be counted on would be nice. Is there now a caveat about fte? I thought sirken made it abundantly clear fte is the end all and be all of engaging.

[Autotune]

"BRB GUYS! GONNA GO SOLO PULL CT TO OUR CAMP!"

[radditsu]

"BRB GUYS! GONNA GO SOLO PULL CT TO OUR CAMP!"

Like i said, we had someone ready to pick it up after the DT.

[Autotune]

Like i said, we had someone ready to pick it up after the DT.

really? cause he never even attempted it.

So either you weren't pulling and going for an FTE snipe

or

Your "ready to pick it up guy" was asleep.

[Alarti0001]

Why does tmo still need CT?

AoN's duh!

[Autotune]

I'm guessing that your guild wasn't ready and just tried for a snipe and there was no other person (or that person was horrible).

Any pull crew should be on point, calling the DT/FTE coordination and getting shit done.

Basically.

If Sominus was taking a DT for the mystery person to tag, the mystery person should be on the encounter log.

[Eccezan]

Please, explain the method he was using to pull CT to your raid.

Seems he got FUCKING DT'd, thus wasn't pulling shit to anything.

this.

Tanthallas, There have been countless rulings where DT removes person from FTE list, why it left the DT'd person on the FTE list here is the real question.

Your argument might be given more validity if there was ANY other FE on the aggro list at all to support any claim to engage/pull to anywhere in the zone.

Unfortunately, you are left with nothing but a poor attempt at an FTE snipe ending up in a DT in full view of a GM. Lets see some more rules lawyer attempts tho!

http://www.kcconfidential.com/userfiles/joe-pesci-my-cousin-vinny.jpg

[Tanthallas]

Question: Assume TMO was not near CT when Scorchin was DT'd. Was it more likely than not that CT would have reset before any puller could have gotten on the aggro list after Scorchin's DT?

In short, had TMO waited ~two more seconds to engage, would Scorchin's aggro have been erased from the kill due to mob reset?

This is irrelevant. The point of FTE is not to speculate on how seconds would have matter to change things, because in most instances FTE comes down to a matter of seconds.

[Tanthallas]

this.

Tanthallas, There have been countless rulings where DT removes person from FTE list, why it left the DT'd person on the FTE list here is the real question.

Your argument might be given more validity if there was ANY other FE on the aggro list at all to support any claim to engage/pull to anywhere in the zone.

Unfortunately, you are left with nothing but a poor attempt at an FTE snipe ending up in a DT in full view of a GM. Lets see some more rules lawyer attempts tho!

http://www.kcconfidential.com/userfiles/joe-pesci-my-cousin-vinny.jpg

How fucking moronic can you get.

DT removes person from FTE list if the mob resets, of course. The entire basis of this conversation is that the LOGS traditionally used show that CT was NOT reset between when Scorchin pulled and when TMO engaged. This is not an instance of kiting or delaying an engage. Hence Scorchin has FTE - given a raid force which was present - and TMO simply bum rushed CT and killed him regardless.

IF FTE shout was in place, this would be a CLEAR CUT FTE and TMO WOULD NOT HAVE engaged. That is the problem here.

[Autotune]

This is irrelevant. The point of FTE is not to speculate on how seconds would have matter to change things, because in most instances FTE comes down to a matter of seconds.

i want to see this encounter log with #1 being someone DT'd.

[Ele]

this.

Tanthallas, There have been countless rulings where DT removes person from FTE list, why it left the DT'd person on the FTE list here is the real question.



CT, in a normal state, DTs the first person to aggro and goes into seek mode/resets, and starts the zone wide DT timer.

CT then has a second DT (more like super-HT) that he does not always immediate use upon a second person engaging him. CT can melee 1-3 people to death before using this DT.

What can happen:

Person A aggros.
CT DT#1 Person A -> Seek mode
Person B aggros.
Person C aggros.
Person D aggros.
CT DT#2 -> Kills top of aggro list, but two other people are also on the aggro list so he never resets and goes for one of them.

[Tanthallas]

So lets implement FTE shout and watch it do nothing if rulings like this will stand when FTE should is implemented.

[Autotune]

i want to see this encounter log with #1 being someone DT'd.

[Tanthallas]

Eli - Drui was on his DT in which he reset. This has already been stated. Drui was not on the FTE logs because of this.

Person B in this case is Scorchin.

Thanks for the support.

[Eccezan]

I am pro FTE shout! FE will be able to know that they lost the mob while we are killing it and not have to wait til a GM tells them after the case.

[Alarti0001]

Please, explain the method he was using to pull CT to your raid.

Seems he got FUCKING DT'd, thus wasn't pulling shit to anything.

This..... little lesson for you guys. If you want to pull a DTing mobs its better to use multiple pullers.

[Ele]

Eli - Drui was on his DT in which he reset. This has already been stated. Drui was not on the FTE logs because of this.

Person B in this case is Scorchin.

Thanks for the support.

I just want to see consistent rules enforcement which ever way it shakes out. What has happened today is not a good precedent.

[Tanthallas]

This..... little lesson for you guys. If you want to pull a DTing mobs its better to use multiple pullers.

Why
Are
You
So
Fucking
Stupid

[Tanthallas]

IF FTE shout was in place, this would be a CLEAR CUT FTE and TMO WOULD NOT HAVE engaged. That is the problem here.

Bottom line. Go jack off in the corner Alarti.

[Eccezan]

Why
Are
You
So
Fucking
Stupid

Why
Are
You
So
Fucking
Bad

[Alarti0001]

Bottom line. Go jack off in the corner Alarti.

Why
Do
You
Want
Me
To
Jack off
In
A
Corner
.
.
.
Weirdo!

[Tanthallas]

I just want to see consistent rules enforcement which ever way it shakes out. What has happened today is not a good precedent.

Pretty much. It isn't possible to compete in these conditions without the rules and the limitations of those rules being known by both parties. Sniping FTE is a completely legitimate tactic given a raid force being present. Regardless of this, it would not even be accurate to say that this was a snipe and not an attempt to grab FTE to bring the mob to the raid force.

[Tanthallas]

Why
Do
You
Want
Me
To
Jack off
In
A
Corner
.
.
.
Weirdo!

Because your mental masturbation on these forums is no longer necessary.

[Versus]

What a bunch of nonsense. I literally can't believe you're trying to convince people this was anything more than a FTE snipe.

[Eccezan]

Pretty much. It isn't possible to compete in these conditions without the rules and the limitations of those rules being known by both parties. Sniping FTE is a completely legitimate tactic given a raid force being present. Regardless of this, it would not even be accurate to say that this was a snipe and not an attempt to grab FTE to bring the mob to the raid force.

Throwing 1 person at a DT mob with no attempt at having a secondary puller "pull" your CT to your raid is not a valid pull.(lol)

Furthermore, not having anyone on aggro list as doing any damage to the mob does not constitute deserving loot in these circumstances.

FE Fail CT = FE Fail CT

Sloan, Shinko, Somninus, Learn2Everquest pls. PLEASE.

[Alarti0001]

Pretty much. It isn't possible to compete in these conditions without actually engaging a raid target.

[Frieza_Prexus]

This is irrelevant. The point of FTE is not to speculate on how seconds would have matter to change things, because in most instances FTE comes down to a matter of seconds.

I disagree. The inquiry itself is relevant, even if it ultimately bears no impact. The point is that the inquiry might produce results. As you said, most instances come down to seconds, but what if it does not? That bears investigation.

We must remember that rules themselves do not define fairness. They promote fairness. This a key distinction. Both the rules and GM rulings are made in the spirit of fairness and equity, not a slavish devotion to the letter of the law.

I believe my question is relevant here because what if the FE puller was 15 seconds away? What if the situation was such that, had TMO not been present, that CT would have indisputably reset his aggro list before the puller could reach the target?

As I see it, this creates two scenarios that bear thought. It's a policy question. Do we stick to strict FTE rules where sniping is encouraged by the rules? Or, do we allow arbitrators to examine a situation to assess intent and apply the principles of fairness?

In this case, if CT would have reset before the puller could reach the target, it seems within the notion of fairness that TMO engaged in good faith (After all, they did have the 1st DT/engage) and that FE engaged in an effort to snipe. FTE is a tool. It is an objective standard, but it is prone to uncertainty at times as this scenario so aptly illustrates.

Clearly, there is a need for a subjective review from time to time. Rules serve fairness. Equity is not a slave to black letter law.

[hatelore]

Question: Assume TMO was not near CT when Scorchin was DT'd. Was it more likely than not that CT would have reset before any puller could have gotten on the aggro list after Scorchin's DT?

In short, had TMO waited ~two more seconds to engage, would Scorchin's aggro have been erased from the kill due to mob reset?

If he fully reset, and went back to banging his scratching post, then yes. Since the first encounter list ends after he is dt'ed and not re-aggroed.

[Tanthallas]

If it was an FTE snipe, it really doesn't matter anyway. FTE snipes are completely within the rules given a raid force being present.

There were more than enough people there to constitute a raid force hands down. What is the difference? That TMO was closer to CT? Lol - I cant believe you are this sure of something which is clearly more nuanced.

[Eccezan]

I disagree. The inquiry itself is relevant, even if it ultimately bears no impact. The point is that the inquiry might produce results. As you said, most instances come down to seconds, but what if it does not? That bears investigation.

We must remember that rules themselves do not define fairness. They promote fairness. This a key distinction. Both the rules and GM rulings are made in the spirit of fairness and equity, not a slavish devotion to the letter of the law.

I believe my question is relevant here because what if the FE puller was 15 seconds away? What if the situation was such that, had TMO not been present, that CT would have indisputably reset his aggro list before the puller could reach the target?

As I see it, this creates two scenarios that bear thought. It's a policy question. Do we stick to strict FTE rules where sniping is encouraged by the rules? Or, do we allow arbitrators to examine a situation to assess intent and apply the principles of fairness?

In this case, if CT would have reset before the puller could reach the target, it seems within the notion of fairness that TMO engaged in good faith (After all, they did have the 1st DT/engage) and that FE engaged in an effort to snipe. FTE is a tool. It is an objective standard, but it is prone to uncertainty at times as this scenario so aptly illustrates.

Clearly, there is a need for a subjective review from time to time. Rules serve fairness. Equity is not a slave to black letter law.

I agree with this and would like to the following diagram to prove my point:
http://i.imgur.com/LvbY3.jpg

[Alarti0001]

If he fully reset, and went back to banging his scratching post, then yes. Since the first encounter list ends after he is dt'ed and not re-aggroed.

Derp, so we engage a mob take the first dt and you honestly think Scorchin thought he had a chance to pull it? The wool is over your eyes friend. There is nothing honest about this pull. It was clearly an FTE snipe attempt there was 0 chance of a pull.

[hatelore]

this.

Tanthallas, There have been countless rulings where DT removes person from FTE list, why it left the DT'd person on the FTE list here is the real question.

Your argument might be given more validity if there was ANY other FE on the aggro list at all to support any claim to engage/pull to anywhere in the zone.

Unfortunately, you are left with nothing but a poor attempt at an FTE snipe ending up in a DT in full view of a GM. Lets see some more rules lawyer attempts tho!

http://www.kcconfidential.com/userfiles/joe-pesci-my-cousin-vinny.jpg

You see, this is where you failed. You should have used the image of his wife explaining how the car had a rear differential axel!@^%11one .

[Tanthallas]

I agree with this and would like to the following diagram to prove my point:
http://i.imgur.com/LvbY3.jpg

You guys keep getting the hair wrong.

[hatelore]

Derp, so we engage a mob take the first dt and you honestly think Scorchin thought he had a chance to pull it? The wool is over your eyes friend. There is nothing honest about this pull. It was clearly an FTE snipe attempt there was 0 chance of a pull.

Hey momo, go back to the corner haha. I am not taking sides, I was just answering her question from my understanding of the game mechanics... Not taking any side here

And read my previous posts, did I not say in a different way that , fte then bravehearting the mob with 2-3-4-5-6-7 however many if it isn't enough to kill ct, is gay???

You find arguments where they don't even exist, you never cease to amaze me.

[Tanthallas]

Derp, so we engage a mob take the first dt and you honestly think Scorchin thought he had a chance to pull it? The wool is over your eyes friend. There is nothing honest about this pull. It was clearly an FTE snipe attempt there was 0 chance of a pull.

Once again for all mentally challenged people like Alarti.

You took the zonewide DT, which does not constitute being put on the agro list. Hence you were not on the agro list.

Scorchin took the DT from CT which is a result of being on the agro list. TMO engaged inbetween Scorchin being on the agro list and Scorchin dieing.

Hence, FTE SHOUT would have called SCORCHIN. Hence FTE would have been SCORCHIN'S if you engaged before he was off the agro list.

Go back to school.

[Eccezan]

Once again for all mentally challenged people like Alarti.

You took the zonewide DT, which does not constitute being put on the agro list. Hence you were not on the agro list.

Scorchin took the DT from CT which is a result of being on the agro list. TMO engaged inbetween Scorchin being on the agro list and Scorchin dieing.

Hence, FTE SHOUT would have called SCORCHIN. Hence FTE would have been SCORCHIN'S if you engaged before he was off the agro list.

Go back to school.

Oh how foolish are we to designate DT'ers to take the first two DT's, and how lucky are we that the first person to aggro him is always lucky enough to take the "ZONEWIDE" DT.

[MooseTX82]

What a bunch of nonsense. I literally can't believe you're trying to convince people this was anything more than a FTE snipe.

pretty much

[Alarti0001]

Once again for all mentally challenged people like Alarti.

You took the zonewide DT, which does not constitute being put on the agro list. Hence you were not on the agro list.

Scorchin took the DT from CT which is a result of being on the agro list. TMO engaged inbetween Scorchin being on the agro list and Scorchin dieing.

Hence, FTE SHOUT would have called SCORCHIN. Hence FTE would have been SCORCHIN'S if you engaged before he was off the agro list.

Go back to school.

And then when he died he would have reset?

You took EQ rule lawyering in school? I never saw that course offering.
How do you put that on your resume'?

[Ele]

[Mon Nov 12 10:05:21 2012] Cazic Thule says 'DRUI'
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:24 2012] Taelara says, 'Hail, Cazic Thule'
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:26 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'Denizens of Fear, your master commands you to come forth to his aid!!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:29 2012] Kaltion tries to pierce Cazic Thule, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:29 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'SCORCHIN'
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:30 2012] Cazic Thule crushes Kaltion for 381 points of damage.
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:30 2012] Cazic Thule tries to crush Kaltion, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:30 2012] Cazic Thule bashes Kaltion for 230 points of damage.
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Biggslick tries to slash Cazic Thule pet, but Cazic Thule pet's magical skin absorbs the blow!


[Mon Nov 12 10:06:00 2012] Your faction standing with DenizensofFear could not possibly get any worse.
[Mon Nov 12 10:06:00 2012] Your faction standing with CazicThule could not possibly get any worse.


[Mon Nov 12 10:07:49 2012] Ephi says out of character, 'FTE -> Scorchin, Kaltion, Biggslick'

[Alarti0001]

The ruling was fair.

It's our job as staff to make the best ruling based on our judgement of the situation, and the facts at hand. I was watching the engage. TMO did not "interfere" with a pull, because the entire raid force was running toward CT. In fact, Drui of TMO took a DT before Scorchin did, and the rest of the force was right behind him.


TMOs entire raid force was under CT when Scorchin was DTd. No other FE were anywhere near him. The encounter logs support that statement.

Like I said, the FTE rules are there to provide the best level playing ground for the server and all guilds who want to participate. These are not hard and fast, 100% FTE always wins rules. It certainly wins when there are no other facts at the table. But saying FTE is the only thing that matters is like saying you can tag FTE while simultaneously training the other raid... there would be other facts there that inform the decision.

.

For tanth since he seems incapable of reasoned thought. Rageon!

[Loke]

ITT a bunch of TMO people agree with each other and call other people names. Nice to see so much has changed since the IB days.

[Eccezan]

ITT a bunch of TMO people agree with each other and call other people names. Nice to see so much has changed since the IB days.

cheater cheater pumpkin eater

[Tanthallas]

And then when he died he would have reset?

You took EQ rule lawyering in school? I never saw that course offering.
How do you put that on your resume'?

There is no course, the only assumption is that you learned to understand arguments and hold rational discussions. You seem to have missed this part of early to mid adolescence and remained at the stage where you cry when mommy doesnt buy you candy.

[Vadd]

This Oddjob guy....

Needs to go outside.

[Alarti0001]

There is no course, the only assumption is that you learned to understand arguments and hold rational discussions. You seem to have missed this part of early to mid adolescence and remained at the stage where you cry when mommy doesnt buy you candy.

Haha..... this whole thread is FE crying.... not the other way around. Get out of the bubble you live in. Its hard to get real facts when the only data you analyze is the data you create. Ask Fox News about this.

[Frieza_Prexus]

You took the zonewide DT, which does not constitute being put on the agro list. Hence you were not on the agro list.

Scorchin took the DT from CT which is a result of being on the agro list. TMO engaged inbetween Scorchin being on the agro list and Scorchin dieing.

Hence, FTE SHOUT would have called SCORCHIN. Hence FTE would have been SCORCHIN'S if you engaged before he was off the agro list.

As you said yourself, this comes down to a matter of seconds. In this case, undoubtedly, fractions of a second.

The question is simply this: Should the rules allow for a decision maker to make rulings so as to promote fairness as much as possible, or should we operate strictly by the letter of the laws without deviation?

Clearly, we know what the rules are. The question is, what is fair?

Do you believe it would be fair if FE were in TMO's position instead? Would it be fair if the "sniping guild" were in the SE corner of the zone with the "puller" near the engaging raid? Do you believe that there exists any set of circumstances where the guild that is merited FTE by the encounter logs should not be merited the kill?

I believe that fairness demands flexibility and occasional subjective decision making. Perhaps you do not. Both are valid view points, the question is, which do we pursue for the health of the server?

I submit that slavish devotion to the current rules produces inequity and unfairness.

[Autotune]

[Mon Nov 12 10:05:21 2012] Cazic Thule says 'DRUI'
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:24 2012] Taelara says, 'Hail, Cazic Thule'
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:26 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'Denizens of Fear, your master commands you to come forth to his aid!!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:29 2012] Kaltion tries to pierce Cazic Thule, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:29 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'SCORCHIN'
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:30 2012] Cazic Thule crushes Kaltion for 381 points of damage.
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:30 2012] Cazic Thule tries to crush Kaltion, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:30 2012] Cazic Thule bashes Kaltion for 230 points of damage.
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Biggslick tries to slash Cazic Thule pet, but Cazic Thule pet's magical skin absorbs the blow!


[Mon Nov 12 10:06:00 2012] Your faction standing with DenizensofFear could not possibly get any worse.
[Mon Nov 12 10:06:00 2012] Your faction standing with CazicThule could not possibly get any worse.


[Mon Nov 12 10:07:49 2012] Ephi says out of character, 'FTE -> Scorchin, Kaltion, Biggslick'

I still want to see the encounter log.

Afaik Ephi wouldn't have access to it.

[Tanthallas]

As you said yourself, this comes down to a matter of seconds. In this case, undoubtedly, fractions of a second.

The question is simply this: Should the rules allow for a decision maker to make rulings so as to promote fairness as much as possible, or should we operate strictly by the letter of the laws without deviation?

Clearly, we know what the rules are. The question is, what is fair?

Do you believe it would be fair if FE were in TMO's position instead? Would it be fair if the "sniping guild" were in the SE corner of the zone with the "puller" near the engaging raid? Do you believe that there exists any set of circumstances where the guild that is merited FTE by the encounter logs should not be merited the kill?

I believe that fairness demands flexibility and occasional subjective decision making. Perhaps you do not. Both are valid view points, the question is, which do we pursue for the health of the server?

I submit that slavish devotion to the current rules produces inequity and unfairness.

Fairness is a function of the rules in place. If the rules themselves are skewed or exhibit favoritism, or if the rules are redefined such that the parties involved were not aware of the 'new' rules before they engaged in their actions, this is what defines unfairness.

FE was formed to compete under these existing rules. We agree that they are fucked up and would like a different set of rules. If FE was in the position TMO was, we would work for a different set of rules. This does not change the fact that we decided to play the game that YOU have been playing for a very long time under the shitty system the current rules give us. Do not turn this around on everyone else now that people are actually trying to play the FTE game with you - if TMO did not like this, THEY could have changed this.

We all know the rules. We all know the limits of the rules. This case does not break the limitations of FTE. Just because TMO was 'under CT' does not matter even one fucking bit. Even FTE shouts would have to be overturned in the case of this ruling.

[Alarti0001]

Fairness is a function of the rules in place. If the rules themselves are skewed or exhibit favoritism, or if the rules are redefined such that the parties involved were not aware of the 'new' rules before they engaged in their actions, this is what defines unfairness.

FE was formed to compete under these existing rules. We agree that they are fucked up and would like a different set of rules. If FE was in the position TMO was, we would work for a different set of rules. This does not change the fact that we decided to play the game that YOU have been playing for a very long time under the shitty system the current rules give us. Do not turn this around on everyone else now that people are actually trying to play the FTE game with you - if TMO did not like this, THEY could have changed this.

We all know the rules. We all know the limits of the rules. This case does not break the limitations of FTE. Just because TMO was 'under CT' does not matter even one fucking bit. Even FTE shouts would have to be overturned in the case of this ruling.

Wanna trade CT loots for VS loots?

[Lostprophets]

<object width="640" height="480"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/J3-BnVngMis?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/J3-BnVngMis?version=3&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="640" height="480" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

[Eccezan]

QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ QQ

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/chief_cry.gif

[hatelore]

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Used to be pro with Blanka!! Good game right thereeeeee.

[Loke]

this whole thread is FE crying

From an outside perspective this whole thread looks like a TMO gloating about getting a mob that the rules say they shouldn't have gotten. TMO started the thread and 75% of the posts in this thread are TMO members.

This exact situation happened with a Trakanon if I remember correctly. IB did all the killing but 1 person from TMO had FTE and we had to fork the loot over. Sure is interesting, albeit unsurprising to see how certain people in TMO act when the shoe is on the other foot.

[Eccezan]

From an outside perspective this whole thread looks like a TMO gloating about getting a mob that the rules say they shouldn't have gotten. TMO started the thread and 75% of the posts in this thread are TMO members.

This exact situation happened with a Trakanon if I remember correctly. IB did all the killing but 1 person from TMO had FTE and we had to fork the loot over. Sure is interesting, albeit unsurprising to see how certain people in TMO act when the shoe is on the other foot.

Never happened.

[Alarti0001]

From an outside perspective this whole thread looks like a TMO gloating about getting a mob that the rules say they shouldn't have gotten. TMO started the thread and 75% of the posts in this thread are TMO members.

This exact situation happened with a Trakanon if I remember correctly. IB did all the killing but 1 person from TMO had FTE and we had to fork the loot over. Sure is interesting, albeit unsurprising to see how certain people in TMO act when the shoe is on the other foot.

Cheater says what?

[Autotune]

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/remove-marijuana-federal-controlled-substance-act-and-allow-states-decide-how-they-want-regulate-it/lzSd9fcG

[Autotune]

I petitioned the white house to solve this problem, awaiting response now.

[Eccezan]

I petitioned the white house to solve this problem, awaiting response now.

no point, republicans will block it from passing

[radditsu]

From an outside perspective this whole thread looks like a TMO gloating about getting a mob that the rules say they shouldn't have gotten. TMO started the thread and 75% of the posts in this thread are TMO members.

This exact situation happened with a Trakanon if I remember correctly. IB did all the killing but 1 person from TMO had FTE and we had to fork the loot over. Sure is interesting, albeit unsurprising to see how certain people in TMO act when the shoe is on the other foot.

Thats what they do, thats who they are. We are here to play by the rules that are in place. I am not here to win a personality contest anymore, BDA can do that. Rules are that fte is everything (according to sirken). We will get fte in the exact same ways that they do. We can rule lawyer with the same enthusiasm that they do. Let em come to the boards and cry and gnash their teeth. We got fte according to the gm, we beat them at their own game, and they can't handle it.

Guess what?

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JVw23WyIQdI?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JVw23WyIQdI?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

[Eccezan]

Thats what they do, thats who they are. We are here to play by the rules that are in place. I am not here to win a personality contest anymore, BDA can do that. Rules are that fte is everything (according to sirken). We will get fte in the exact same ways that they do. We can rule lawyer with the same enthusiasm that they do. Let em come to the boards and cry and gnash their teeth. We got fte according to the gm, we beat them at their own game, and they can't handle it.

Guess what?



Yes, Guess what? FTE isn't everything as shown by two rulings (one on VS where you benefitted from it) It may work for you when people aren't around to either view your terrible attempts, or someone isnt around to fraps.

HOWEVER, With existence of a GM that is watching the encounter in real time, Fairness trumps FTE, that is the rule. Get with the program or GTFO.

[Hasbinlulz]

"Fairness."

Laughing.

My.

Fucking.

Ass.

Off.

No, a TMO member did NOT just laud "TMO getting more loot" as "Fairness."

No they fucking didn't.

Oh hell no.

[Hasbinlulz]

Like, regardless of how this situation went down, you're a fucking idiot, Eccezan.

[Autotune]

it's fair i get all the fucking pie, because it's my fucking pie.

[Eccezan]

it's fair i get all the fucking pie, because it's my fucking pie.

[Eccezan]

"Fairness."

Laughing.

My.

Fucking.

Ass.

Off.

No, a TMO member did NOT just laud "TMO getting more loot" as "Fairness."

No they fucking didn't.

Oh hell no.

You are too stupid to respond to. Not going to.

[Autotune]

Honestly tho, I'm glad that FTE is now First to Engage (as a guild) and not First To Engage (single).

I hope this becomes the norm, it has had plenty of raiding guilds in the past wanting it.

If this is some kind of 1 time bullshit, then shame on you staff and learn to actually make positive changes.


Goodbye FTE, hello F6TE

[Hasbinlulz]

You are too stupid to respond to. Not going to.
You already did.

Who's stupid now?

[Eccezan]

You already did.

Who's stupid now?

still you?

[Rovas]

You are too stupid to respond to. Not going to.

But you did.... you even quoted him....;)

[Eccezan]

But you did.... you even quoted him....;)

quote isn't a response to his statement tho...amirite? a response stating no response is no response due to stupidity.

[Rovas]

Honestly tho, I'm glad that FTE is now First to Engage (as a guild) and not First To Engage (single).

I hope this becomes the norm, it has had plenty of raiding guilds in the past wanting it.

If this is some kind of 1 time bullshit, then shame on you staff and learn to actually make positive changes.


Goodbye FTE, hello F6TE

This won't become the norm, because GM's aren't always in zone watching the encounter to make a call like this, most the time, they come in after the kill is made and tell you fte log. Which is another reason this is a bad call imho, because the precedent cannot be maintained.

[Frogie305]

My druid be Famous !!!!!!!!!!!
http://i.imgur.com/U4cMG.gif[/quote]

[Rovas]

quote isn't a response to his statement tho...amirite? a response stating no response is no response due to stupidity.

http://i.imgur.com/PWPyi.jpg

[Eccezan]

http://i.imgur.com/PWPyi.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mde7drTHjT1qz581wo1_500.gif

[Autotune]

This won't become the norm, because GM's aren't always in zone watching the encounter to make a call like this, most the time, they come in after the kill is made and tell you fte log. Which is another reason this is a bad call imho, because the precedent cannot be maintained.

the only other option

XP=Loot

Easily able to solve that problem without needing GMs and their silly rules.

[Rovas]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mde7drTHjT1qz581wo1_500.gif

http://i.imgur.com/cpwpq.jpg

[Rovas]

the only other option

XP=Loot

Easily able to solve that problem without needing GMs and their silly rules.

Thats fine, but thats not the rule atm. :(

[Eccezan]

http://i.imgur.com/cpwpq.jpg

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/gallery/dance-party/swag_dance.gif

[Hasbinlulz]

the only other option

XP=Loot

Easily able to solve that problem without needing GMs and their silly rules.
This should have always been the rule everywhere.

[Rovas]

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/gallery/dance-party/swag_dance.gif

http://i.imgur.com/krHFo.jpg

[Eccezan]

http://i.imgur.com/krHFo.jpg

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4783/okaywtfreaction.gif

[Halfelfbard]

U think i was kiting a large chunk of the zone with my homie <Fistpound> for our health?

Learn to raid or get outa the way for people that know what there doing. Sick of holding down syndrome raiders hands.

Least BDA tries a raid. FE is just sad.

[Autotune]

if the staff won't enforce it, the top guilds should hold a meeting and go with it.


honestly, stop leaving the decisions in outsiders hands.


That way, each guild can still fight for FTE if some other guild shows up (which will discourage the other guilds for showing up if they have to get FTE) and then if it's only the top end guilds anyhow, they can follow their own rules.

FUCK THE G-MEN AND THEIR LAWS.

[Hasbinlulz]

Eccezan is the popular girl who acts sarcastically dismissive towards anything that makes him uncomfortable.

I have an easy time understanding this.

[Eccezan]

Eccezan is the popular girl who acts sarcastically dismissive towards anything that makes him uncomfortable.

I have an easy time understanding this.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6uqqtlxJ9sw/UB007EhYUyI/AAAAAAAACEM/AklTdmSs1v0/s1600/gina-carano.gif

[Autotune]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=88457

Vote for XP

Vote for Freedom.

[Rovas]

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/4783/okaywtfreaction.gif

http://i.imgur.com/87lYL.gif

[Autotune]

http://i.imgur.com/87lYL.gif

at the very least, don't recycle recently posted gifs.

[Rovas]

at the very least, don't recycle recently posted gifs.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/gallery/dance-party/swag_dance.gif

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/015/orly.jpg

[Eccezan]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/015/orly.jpg

Original memes only
http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2008/8/5/128624566317403139.jpg

[Phatso]

quote isn't a response to his statement tho...amirite? a response stating no response is no response due to stupidity.

******** width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/de4ot18QS4A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

incase embed doesnt work http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de4ot18QS4A

[Autotune]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/015/orly.jpg

idk when the last time that was posted, but i know that hairspray thing was posted like an hour ago.

either way, regardless of who you guys are, don't do it.

[Rovas]

Original memes only
http://i.chzbgr.com/completestore/2008/8/5/128624566317403139.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/2vLMN.gif

[Autotune]

******** width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/de4ot18QS4A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

incase embed doesnt work http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de4ot18QS4A

it works, you just suck.

<object width="420" height="315"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/de4ot18QS4A?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/de4ot18QS4A?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="420" height="315" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

[Eccezan]

******** width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/de4ot18QS4A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

incase embed doesnt work http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de4ot18QS4A

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/king-watch.gif

[Frieza_Prexus]

Fairness is a function of the rules in place. If the rules themselves are skewed or exhibit favoritism, or if the rules are redefined such that the parties involved were not aware of the 'new' rules before they engaged in their actions, this is what defines unfairness.

FE was formed to compete under these existing rules. We agree that they are fucked up and would like a different set of rules. If FE was in the position TMO was, we would work for a different set of rules. This does not change the fact that we decided to play the game that YOU have been playing for a very long time under the shitty system the current rules give us. Do not turn this around on everyone else now that people are actually trying to play the FTE game with you - if TMO did not like this, THEY could have changed this.

We all know the rules. We all know the limits of the rules. This case does not break the limitations of FTE. Just because TMO was 'under CT' does not matter even one fucking bit. Even FTE shouts would have to be overturned in the case of this ruling.

Yes, FTE shouts are potentially able to be overturned. Sniping was a concern of Sirken (with CT as the example too), and the suggested solution is to make them informative but non-binding.

If you want to argue that the "rules" need to be followed by the letter, it is a demonstrable fact that P99 uses a form of common law. Rogean, Amelinda, Uthgaard, and now Ephi have all issued rulings and interpretations on the spot or on the forums that modified or impacted written rules. To claim that written that the "P99 Code of Laws" stands alone isn't entirely true. GM Formed interpretation and common law also controls and shapes it.

I agree that FTE sniping is stupid, but I disagree that GM's have no interpretive leeway. I do agree that it is good policy to codify everything, as much as possible, before hand, but I disagree that the codified rules are immune to GM interpretation and good-faith situational modification.

[Daldolma]

Yes, FTE shouts are potentially able to be overturned. Sniping was a concern of Sirken (with CT as the example too), and the suggested solution is to make them informative but non-binding.

If you want to argue that the "rules" need to be followed by the letter, it is a demonstrable fact that P99 uses a form of common law. Rogean, Amelinda, Uthgaard, and now Ephi have all issued rulings and interpretations on the spot or on the forums that modified or impacted written rules. To claim that written that the "P99 Code of Laws" stands alone isn't entirely true. GM Formed interpretation and common law also controls and shapes it.

I agree that FTE sniping is stupid, but I disagree that GM's have no interpretive leeway. I do agree that it is good policy to codify everything, as much as possible, before hand, but I disagree that the codified rules are immune to GM interpretation and good-faith situational modification.

Law school?

[Shinko]

guys, i was sleeping next to my girl when ct spawned what happen?

[Hasbinlulz]

what happen?
One idiot cried about something another idiot did.

[quido]

Man I wish I could have been there =(

[radditsu]

******** width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/de4ot18QS4A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

incase embed doesnt work http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de4ot18QS4A

gotta use the old embed code =\

[Frieza_Prexus]

I also think it's relevant to point out that the "rule" has been First to Engage. This does not necessarily mean that being first on the aggro log is that you are first to engage.

Yes, the aggro logs and FTE have been treated very synonymously, but there is still argument that a distinction exists. Perhaps, the aggro logs are simply one informative facet as to who got FTE, though they have been indisputably convenient in making determinations when no GMs are present.

Perhaps an encounter such as CT already DOES have a mechanism to determine who has FTE. Under this theory, TMO's raid engaged the mob first. Even though the logs were clean at the time of Scorchin's DT, it is indisputable that TMO engaged with the first DT. There is no other reasonable explanation for the guild's activities in taking the first DT and charging the mob OTHER than intent to engage.

In short, first to engage is not necessarily synonymous with being first on any particular instance of the encounter logs. Perhaps the rules were followed to the letter here. Perhaps first to engage is a broad concept that can, from time to time, require a factual inquiry into the situation.

[hatelore]

These meme's seriously got me rolling on the floor laughing, thats about the only good thing about this thread. haha

[Grahm]

I've been on your momma for three years and I still cant figure that fat bitch out.

i literally havent laughed that hard from this forum in a long time.

4/10 on the joke
20/10 on timing&delivery

[Grahm]

Shud be a new rule.........who ever calls out a raid mob with the LEAST amount of players gets dibs, but HAS to kill the mob with that amount of players.

TMO calls trak with 15....BDA can call it with 14 players...tmo can then lower there number to 13...etc etc

Shows the most skill IMO and lowers poop socking. Can track for 2 days for trak, have 40 man raid....as long as 10+ opposing guild shows up and call they want to go at it with 10-39 players and then first guild can either barter to there 38 players or let BDA try it with 10 and if they wipe first guild gets free raid mob. If they kill mob, then props to them for having the balls to do it with so little.

Should should be the "players rotation" instead of them actually agreeing on rotation for actual free mobs. cause no matter what fuck GM forced raid rules. (clearly other than KSing / training etc etc.)

[Tanthallas]

I also think it's relevant to point out that the "rule" has been First to Engage. This does not necessarily mean that being first on the aggro log is that you are first to engage.

Yes, the aggro logs and FTE have been treated very synonymously, but there is still argument that a distinction exists. Perhaps, the aggro logs are simply one informative facet as to who got FTE, though they have been indisputably convenient in making determinations when no GMs are present.

Perhaps an encounter such as CT already DOES have a mechanism to determine who has FTE. Under this theory, TMO's raid engaged the mob first. Even though the logs were clean at the time of Scorchin's DT, it is indisputable that TMO engaged with the first DT. There is no other reasonable explanation for the guild's activities in taking the first DT and charging the mob OTHER than intent to engage.

In short, first to engage is not necessarily synonymous with being first on any particular instance of the encounter logs. Perhaps the rules were followed to the letter here. Perhaps first to engage is a broad concept that can, from time to time, require a factual inquiry into the situation.

This is simply wrong. FTE is defined as first on the aggro list of the mob given that the mob is killed without resetting. That's it.

[Alarti0001]

This is simply wrong. FTE is defined as first on the aggro list of the mob given that the mob is killed without resetting. That's it.

Find me this definition as it applies to CT !

[Tanthallas]

Why are you so fucking stupid?

[Alarti0001]

Why are you so fucking stupid?

Why can you never provide a single shred of evidence and immediately resort to personal attacks?

[Tanthallas]

Because you are incomprehensibly stupid. I am still trying to figure out if you really are this dumb, or if you just pretend to be this dumb.

[Alarti0001]

Because you are incomprehensibly stupid. I am still trying to figure out if you really are this dumb, or if you just pretend to be this dumb.

More evidence less personal attacks.... come one you can do it? Can't you?

Want to know what is stupid? Thinking people would believe you were trying to solo pull CT to your raid....DERP!

[Tanthallas]

What is or is not a tactical failure in fighting anything is outside the boundaries of the rules of what determines who has claim to a mob.

Also, you are an idiot.

[Alarti0001]

What is or is not a tactical failure in fighting anything is outside the boundaries of the rules of what determines who has claim to a mob.

Also, you are an idiot.

backpedal more. haha
Here is what makes you mad.... your guild acts douchey and a gm publicly calls you out on that. This is bad for your because your guild is founded on the premise that TMO is douchey and you are some righteous warriors coming to take us down.
Sorry your pride is hurt, stop being a douche and start......engaging mobs and you might get some kills.
But if Faydedar is any indication maybe you should talk to BDA about a potential merger.

[Autotune]

backpedal more. haha
Here is what makes you mad.... your guild acts douchey and a gm publicly calls you out on that. This is bad for your because your guild is founded on the premise that TMO is douchey and you are some righteous warriors coming to take us down.
Sorry your pride is hurt, stop being a douche and start......engaging mobs and you might get some kills.
But if Faydedar is any indication maybe you should talk to BDA about a potential merger.

BDA seems happier without them.


LEAVE BDA ALONE!!!!!memethingy.jpg

[Tanthallas]

backpedal more. haha
Here is what makes you mad.... your guild acts douchey and a gm publicly calls you out on that. This is bad for your because your guild is founded on the premise that TMO is douchey and you are some righteous warriors coming to take us down.
Sorry your pride is hurt, stop being a douche and start......engaging mobs and you might get some kills.
But if Faydedar is any indication maybe you should talk to BDA about a potential merger.

Unfortunately for your thesis, we do not give two shits about TMO being douchey or not. We are here to take your precious loots, not win a popularity contest. To do so, we need to act under rules which are clearly understood by both parties. This means that, to an extent, we will both push the limits of these rules. When these limits are pushed and the rules are not upheld but instead undermined under the auspice of 'fairness', well, there is a problem. If you wanted fairness to be the name of the game, you would have done so long before you had actual competition.

[Tanthallas]

BDA seems happier without them.


LEAVE BDA ALONE!!!!!memethingy.jpg

It is ironic that BDA has kicked it up a notch in response to us leaving to do the exact same thing.

I am happy they are. It is just sad that they had this potential and more the whole time.

[Eccezan]

Tanthallas plans on pushing the limits of fail to heights previously unthinkable.
Go get em Sloan.
http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/gallery/funniest-home-failures/boogie-board-faceplant.gif

[Tanthallas]

Thanks for the trak teeth.

<3

[hatelore]

i literally havent laughed that hard from this forum in a long time.

4/10 on the joke
20/10 on timing&delivery

Haha I agree, the timing was about as perfect as it gets, even if it's a worn out joke.
I think I'm going to have to start calling him "punching bag", the poor guy takes a beating everyday and just keeps on ticking. Lol

[hatelore]

But please, more vids and meme's , the shit had me rolling! Hah

[arsenalpow]

It is ironic that BDA has kicked it up a notch in response to us leaving to do the exact same thing.

I am happy they are. It is just sad that they had this potential and more the whole time.

No notches have been kicked up.

Carry on.

[Susano]

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd228/sussypoo/alarti.jpg

[Nerosys]

Prove it ! Literally prove it.

Okhow about Trakanon while we were in BDA you had one FD monk under trak because you guys had wiped and were not about to repull... you guys did 0 damage and we were told should have let the mob reset.


Its easy to say there is no favoritism when you guys are the ones getting favored. If they are going to change the rules it should be done in advance. and there is a little difference between grabbing FTE.. and running VS around for 5 mins FD flopping as was seen in the video.

[Alarti0001]

Okhow about Trakanon while we were in BDA you had one FD monk under trak because you guys had wiped and were not about to repull... you guys did 0 damage and we were told should have let the mob reset.


Its easy to say there is no favoritism when you guys are the ones getting favored. If they are going to change the rules it should be done in advance. and there is a little difference between grabbing FTE.. and running VS around for 5 mins FD flopping as was seen in the video.

No you are confused... I said prove it.

[Alarti0001]

Haha I agree, the timing was about as perfect as it gets, even if it's a worn out joke.
I think I'm going to have to start calling him "punching bag", the poor guy takes a beating everyday and just keeps on ticking. Lol

Ya really, your momma jokes are severe beatings to me lol.
Such a fool.

[Jacquouille]

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd228/sussypoo/alarti.jpg

This guy is famous.

Alarti isn't and has no life.

Tsk tsk post accurate images plz~

[hatelore]

Ya really, your momma jokes are severe beatings to me lol.
Such a fool.

I never made your-mamma jokes about you :/

[radditsu]

This guy is famous.

Alarti isn't and has no life.

Tsk tsk post accurate images plz~

This guy helped indiana jones out. Also, was a guy in the sliders show. Do not sully him.

Plus isn't he dead? Alarti isnt dead.

[radditsu]

No notches have been kicked up.

Carry on.
Lies,

If you kicked it up a month ago like you are now, I am almost positive there wouldn't even be a guild named after breaking and entering and taking what we want.


Plus making bigazz a raid leader? Really?

[Frieza_Prexus]

This is simply wrong. FTE is defined as first on the aggro list of the mob given that the mob is killed without resetting. That's it.

I'm not so sure. Looking at the posted rules here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14667

The rules of engagement for raid bosses on Project 1999 are First to Engage (FTE) in any situation that is not covered below.

FAQ

Q: What classifies a mob as "Engaged"?
A: A mob is classified as engaged as long as it has aggro on at least one player.


It doesn't talk about the Aggro Logs. It talks simply about the first group to "engage" a mob. Perhaps, it is allowable that a distinction exists that FTE as a term is actually more inclusive than just what the logs show.

We need to remember that the logs exist to serve the GMs and the players. Not the other way around. Perhaps the mechanics of CT are such that it is more prudent to apply an intent based standard (which group "engaged" the mob first, in good faith) as opposed to simply checking the logs.

Using this broader definition, TMO indisputably engaged first, but the logs do not indicate that. This creates a situation where a group must technically (per the logs) engage a mob TWICE to kill it. This seems a bit excessive. Perhaps, the rules as they currently are already reflect this by imposing a standard that looks not only to the logs, but also to situational facts.

Even if this above is not true, GMs are allowed to make interpretations and rulings giving P99 a form of common law. Essentially, this new standard of parsing the situation (as opposed to simply checking the logs) is now a valid rule until overturned.

Yes, it's always best to spell things out beforehand, but I believe that it is undeniable that GMs can, and have, altered the written rules via ruling and arbitration. Sometimes an absurd result happens when you have a rote application of the written rules, and that's why the GM's are there. To preserve the spirit and intent of the rules upholding the notion of fairness and equity as they see it.

[Raavak]

This guy helped indiana jones out. Also, was a guy in the sliders show. Do not sully him.

Plus isn't he dead? Alarti isnt dead.

Jesus H Christ, it's Gimli, Son of Gloin.

[radditsu]

Jesus H Christ, it's Gimli, Son of Gloin.

Holy shit he was.

[Tanthallas]

Well I will say I appreciate the tone of your responses.

First:

A: A mob is classified as engaged as long as it has aggro on at least one player.

First to 'engage' is defined as aggro on at least one player - not a group of players or raid. The parameter on this is that a sufficient raid force must be present. This has nothing to do with the tactics employed in pulling the mob, etc.

Second:

If an engaged mob has aggro on atleast one player, then an 'unengaged' mob has aggro on no players. When CT DT's someone as a result of his zone-wide DT, that person enters and simultaneously exists the criteria of engagement. However, when someone is on the aggro list and CT DT's that person, that person is engaged from the time he or she is on the aggro list to the time he or she is DTed.

Third:

Engaging in 'good faith' can mean many things. Attempting to aggro CT before another raid-force and pull him to your raid force may be tactically unsound, however based on the rules and the competition for FTE that they create it is a completely legitimate 'good faith' attempt to get on the aggro list before the other raid. IF there was not a raid force present, then this would obviously not be in 'good faith'...

You must see that, given Scorchin's being first on the aggro list, if all of the raid-force present simply rushed CT after he was DTed then this ruling would have gone differently. And that is the problem. FTE is not based upon proximity of the raid to the mob - if this is now the case, well, expect people to start forming their raids closer to mobs rather than at otherwise chosen locations and simply throw their force at the mob the second they see a puller from another guild tag them.

[Ele]

http://i.imgur.com/aGrdT.jpg

[Alarti0001]

Well I will say I appreciate the tone of your responses.

First:

A: A mob is classified as engaged as long as it has aggro on at least one player.

First to 'engage' is defined as aggro on at least one player - not a group of players or raid. The parameter on this is that a sufficient raid force must be present. This has nothing to do with the tactics employed in pulling the mob, etc.

Second:

If an engaged mob has aggro on atleast one player, then an 'unengaged' mob has aggro on no players. When CT DT's someone as a result of his zone-wide DT, that person enters and simultaneously exists the criteria of engagement. However, when someone is on the aggro list and CT DT's that person, that person is engaged from the time he or she is on the aggro list to the time he or she is DTed.

Third:

Engaging in 'good faith' can mean many things. Attempting to aggro CT before another raid-force and pull him to your raid force may be tactically unsound, however based on the rules and the competition for FTE that they create it is a completely legitimate 'good faith' attempt to get on the aggro list before the other raid. IF there was not a raid force present, then this would obviously not be in 'good faith'...

You must see that, given Scorchin's being first on the aggro list, if all of the raid-force present simply rushed CT after he was DTed then this ruling would have gone differently. And that is the problem. FTE is not based upon proximity of the raid to the mob - if this is now the case, well, expect people to start forming their raids closer to mobs rather than at otherwise chosen locations and simply throw their force at the mob the second they see a puller from another guild tag them.

Jesus just too many for me to point out individualy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy
Refresh yourself

Your points contradict themselves in the same paragraph. You claim FTE is individualistic and not guild based and then based on your assumption you prove TMO deserves the mob. If CT was FE's on an FTE basis, when Scorchin died he lost all rights to the mob. Trying to pull CT thru an engaged "raid force' was tactically unsound. If your guild engaged FE likely would have gotten the kill(If TMO stayed engaged, because you would have definitely wiped). However, based on your assumptions, FE lost fte by dying and by not having another member with aggro.

Tactics always have something to do with loot awards. If VS is FTE'd but trained to the zone in that guild loses rights to the mob. Just another example of tactics mattering.

[Tanthallas]

One more time: Scorchin did not lose FTE rights because TMO engaged before he died.

If I pretend you are a child, it makes this so much easier.

[Alarti0001]

One more time: Scorchin did not lose FTE rights because TMO engaged before he died.

If I pretend you are a child, it makes this so much easier.

Or from another viewpoint Scorchin tried to pull CT and his train through TMO. Clearly raid interference.

[Alarti0001]

also, post fraps of scorchin actually pulling =))

<insert insult here>

[Tanthallas]

Or from another viewpoint Scorchin tried to pull CT and his train through TMO. Clearly raid interference.

That is probably the first thing you have said that I can see as being a claim. But then again, if that were the ruling, it would set a pretty shaky foundation for pulling raid mobs in general.

[Ephi]

Now that we've all had some time to cool off (maybe)... a few notes for you all:

1. Despite this post existing in RnF, I think there have been some solid discussions and viewpoints from both sides of the ruling yesterday. I hope you all can continue to debate the merits of my decision yesterday. It's nothing but healthy for the server, the raiding guilds involved, and the GM staff.

2. As long as there is more than 1 guild raiding, there will be staff judgements made regarding certain scenarios which play out but perhaps enter a gray area in the server raiding rules. This will never go away. Staff intervention will almost always be required, regardless of the ruleset. To a certain extent, it's why we exist on the server. If this was not true, I'm sure Rogean would just patch some code in to transfer the loot to whoever appeared first on the aggro list for each encounter. Problem solved, right?

3. Some have suggested that this is completely unprecedented, and it's certainly not. Nor will this incident stand alone in the history of decisions going forward. As mentioned in point #2, GM staff is here to weigh in on encounters and make decisions to the best of their abilities. The rules help inform staff decisions on awarding loot. Period. I would challenge anyone to come up with a set of rules that can determine who is awarded a kill by themselves, without a human touch, for all possible scenarios. That said, we certainly seek to work toward that goal more and more.

To those of you who strongly disagree with my decision yesterday, please note that I'm sorry you got the short end of this one, and that I've been in similar situations myself (both on live, and here). It sucks to be robbed of loot, no matter how good or bad it might be. But from my view point, the correct decision was made based on a very many number of variables in this particular encounter.

While we'd love to be present for every encounter to make sure things don't happen, we obviously cannot. In situations where we are not present, the rules and guidelines set forth provide the best information toward our decisions. But when we can, we'll be present and interpret the rules as we see fit, collectively. I emphasize that because although there is some interpretation, it is certainly not an individual effort. We constantly look for feedback internally and continually improve not only our judgement of rules, but the rules themselves. No decision is made in a vacuum.

[Eccezan]

One more time: Scorchin did not lose FTE rights because TMO engaged before he died.

If I pretend you are a child, it makes this so much easier.

Lol...scorchin was DT'd, no one else from FE was on aggro list. Are you really this stupid? In EQ Mobs can not be aggrod on dead people thus regardless what the logs say FE is a shitty guild with no class and bad rule lawyers. For Sloan's next trick, he will engage a mob without zoning into the same zone as it. Wheres his loot?

Forceful Entry: A fail guild with a different name is still a fail guild.

[Alarti0001]

That is probably the first thing you have said that I can see as being a claim. But then again, if that were the ruling, it would set a pretty shaky foundation for pulling raid mobs in general.

The only claim I made is that your attempt to "pull" CT was tactically unsound and no sane person would have thought it would work. I am claiming that you were trying to FTE snipe without a credible attempt at CT. Your "pulling" thing is a made up story to try to lawyer your claim. It is frankly unbelievable and pathetic.

Its not very shaky CT is an individual encounter and acts differently that any other raid mob.