And I raaaaaan, I raaaan so far awaaaayyyy

[Tanthallas]

You are not the judge of sanity or insanity, fortunately for everyone here.

You have no idea what was going on with the other raid forces, what they may or may not have done, in what context that pull was attempted, etc. Instead you choose to speculate, and you conveniently settle on the conclusions most suitable to your arguments.

The bottom line is that rules are set in place not to try to figure out what is in peoples heads or why they are doing things, but instead to set up a framework within which people can act such that they get rewarded or punished. The discussion with everyone else is about this framework. Seeing as you continually shit up the thread with vague and subjective bases for what you think happened or what you think the rules are, this concept seems to have eluded you.

[Autotune]

Now that we've all had some time to cool off (maybe)... a few notes for you all:

1. Despite this post existing in RnF, I think there have been some solid discussions and viewpoints from both sides of the ruling yesterday. I hope you all can continue to debate the merits of my decision yesterday. It's nothing but healthy for the server, the raiding guilds involved, and the GM staff.

2. As long as there is more than 1 guild raiding, there will be staff judgements made regarding certain scenarios which play out but perhaps enter a gray area in the server raiding rules. This will never go away. Staff intervention will almost always be required, regardless of the ruleset. To a certain extent, it's why we exist on the server. If this was not true, I'm sure Rogean would just patch some code in to transfer the loot to whoever appeared first on the aggro list for each encounter. Problem solved, right?

3. Some have suggested that this is completely unprecedented, and it's certainly not. Nor will this incident stand alone in the history of decisions going forward. As mentioned in point #2, GM staff is here to weigh in on encounters and make decisions to the best of their abilities. The rules help inform staff decisions on awarding loot. Period. I would challenge anyone to come up with a set of rules that can determine who is awarded a kill by themselves, without a human touch, for all possible scenarios. That said, we certainly seek to work toward that goal more and more.

To those of you who strongly disagree with my decision yesterday, please note that I'm sorry you got the short end of this one, and that I've been in similar situations myself (both on live, and here). It sucks to be robbed of loot, no matter how good or bad it might be. But from my view point, the correct decision was made based on a very many number of variables in this particular encounter.

While we'd love to be present for every encounter to make sure things don't happen, we obviously cannot. In situations where we are not present, the rules and guidelines set forth provide the best information toward our decisions. But when we can, we'll be present and interpret the rules as we see fit, collectively. I emphasize that because although there is some interpretation, it is certainly not an individual effort. We constantly look for feedback internally and continually improve not only our judgement of rules, but the rules themselves. No decision is made in a vacuum.

#2 Should show you all that this problem will never be solved. Now Red really is looking better.

[snow_man]

Easy feedback...I understand the point that FE never put damage on the mob... Goes back to, well that's considered raid interference. The rules on this server need to be cleaned up badly.

Implement Guild Raids on the server and let the exp do the talking... No need to have GM interventions.

Yea I know, that wasn't til POPower, but until then, it's pretty much just letting the GM's roll the dice on who gets the loot...

[Autotune]

GMs don't understand.


Less GM involvement in raid guilds and their rules = more Guild involvement in raiding rules.

Stop trying to be the Federal Government of Raid Mobs INC.

[Tanthallas]

Lol...scorchin was DT'd, no one else from FE was on aggro list. Are you really this stupid? In EQ Mobs can not be aggrod on dead people thus regardless what the logs say FE is a shitty guild with no class and bad rule lawyers. For Sloan's next trick, he will engage a mob without zoning into the same zone as it. Wheres his loot?

Forceful Entry: A fail guild with a different name is still a fail guild.

Aggro on a mob is determined based on who is on the aggro list of that mob without ir resting given that it is killed.

People die when they fight shit. That does not erase them from the aggro list unless the mob resets.

As an officer of TMO, are you seriously trying to tell me that you have no fucking clue what determines who is on the aggro list of a mob and who is not? Does daddy Zeelot take care of all the important shit or something?

TMO: A mentally challenged guild with lots of loot is still a mentally challenged guild.

[Alarti0001]

You are not the judge of sanity or insanity, fortunately for everyone here.

You have no idea what was going on with the other raid forces, what they may or may not have done, in what context that pull was attempted, etc. Instead you choose to speculate, and you conveniently settle on the conclusions most suitable to your arguments.

The bottom line is that rules are set in place not to try to figure out what is in peoples heads or why they are doing things, but instead to set up a framework within which people can act such that they get rewarded or punished. The discussion with everyone else is about this framework. Seeing as you continually shit up the thread with vague and subjective bases for what you think happened or what you think the rules are, this concept seems to have eluded you.

Lol I'm vague? Please post your fraps evidence, and take your post to heart. It describes you perfectly.

Here is my evidence, you had 1 puller on a DTing mob, no other FE engaged. Case closed

[Wrei]

Seems to me these "GM discretion calls" will only result in more threads from whoever is butt hurt on the outcome. Rules may promote the spirit of fairness but they are there to maintain consistency not "trying to do the right thing". From time to time, some will genuinely get shafted over something but that's when the rules can get modified to accommodate such eventualities. Not changed on the fly (however merited) by a GM. If you maintain the stance that "we'll always have to come in and make you crybabies play nice it will only lead to more drama.

GM's should deal with all other issues bugs/scams etc... anything BUT the raid loot scene (unless the boss bugs loot). People are all inherently greedy, if you open things to interpretations, they will only try to twist it to their advantage and spin it here by playing the victim card. Instead of trying to decide who is right and wrong in this instance it may be time to take a serious look at the rules themselves. Make it more black and white so little drama queens will have a harder time trying to spin it. There's plenty of options, perhaps a thread on the server board by a GM to ask the masses what the new rules should reflect will be more productive than two guilds pissing each other here.

As for this particular instance, it all boils down to how many people FE had in zone. "Raidforce" is really a tricky business, I mean it's obvious TMO feels FE was just trolling with the snipe as they didn't have enough to down CT (What is that number btw TMO? Is it like less than 40 = GTFO? Sorry :D). Cause if FE Did have legit numbers to down him then yeah from their perspective it would be a straight ks fest after they felt they got the tag. It could also be argued FE even with the bare minimum was not "Ready" to engage and just tagged early in the hopes TMO kills CT for them and they could sketch out the loot like true pro raiders (ok I'll stop :P).

See where I'm going with this? Everyone will have a different opinion and even if it were frapsed, everyone would have a different interpretation of it. Not claiming Ephi did the wrong decision, just saying the fact he had to make a "gut call" is what makes the whole rule situation silly and open to debate.

Either hard code FTE with a clear shout, if opposing guilds do more dmg than FTE guild then ban their accounts for 6months. Force rotations between raid ready guild (I'm sure the mass of casuals will all jizz over this idea). KS group determines Loot rights. Allow everything to go, training, ks'ing... and start a Darwinian process of retards until they realize cooperation is better than ass munching. W/e it is, decide on something other than "We'll decide on a case by case basis if the rules apply here".

PS: Still would like to know how many FE had in zone ready when CT got aggroed, and would still like to hear what a "raid force" is under the TMO standards.

[Ele]

Now that we've all had some time to cool off (maybe)... a few notes for you all:

1. Despite this post existing in RnF, I think there have been some solid discussions and viewpoints from both sides of the ruling yesterday. I hope you all can continue to debate the merits of my decision yesterday. It's nothing but healthy for the server, the raiding guilds involved, and the GM staff.

2. As long as there is more than 1 guild raiding, there will be staff judgements made regarding certain scenarios which play out but perhaps enter a gray area in the server raiding rules. This will never go away. Staff intervention will almost always be required, regardless of the ruleset. To a certain extent, it's why we exist on the server. If this was not true, I'm sure Rogean would just patch some code in to transfer the loot to whoever appeared first on the aggro list for each encounter. Problem solved, right?

3. Some have suggested that this is completely unprecedented, and it's certainly not. Nor will this incident stand alone in the history of decisions going forward. As mentioned in point #2, GM staff is here to weigh in on encounters and make decisions to the best of their abilities. The rules help inform staff decisions on awarding loot. Period. I would challenge anyone to come up with a set of rules that can determine who is awarded a kill by themselves, without a human touch, for all possible scenarios. That said, we certainly seek to work toward that goal more and more.

To those of you who strongly disagree with my decision yesterday, please note that I'm sorry you got the short end of this one, and that I've been in similar situations myself (both on live, and here). It sucks to be robbed of loot, no matter how good or bad it might be. But from my view point, the correct decision was made based on a very many number of variables in this particular encounter.

While we'd love to be present for every encounter to make sure things don't happen, we obviously cannot. In situations where we are not present, the rules and guidelines set forth provide the best information toward our decisions. But when we can, we'll be present and interpret the rules as we see fit, collectively. I emphasize that because although there is some interpretation, it is certainly not an individual effort. We constantly look for feedback internally and continually improve not only our judgement of rules, but the rules themselves. No decision is made in a vacuum.

So to clarify, if no GM/Guide is present to witness nor fraps/log evidence is presented, a simple FTE in the encounter log will rule the day?

If a GM/Guide is present they will subjectively analyze the situation to judge whether or not a "sufficient raid force" is present and/or a "sufficient attempt" was made?

FTE will not count if a "raid" only has one person on the encounter log?

At this point, the thread stating the raiding rules needs to be updated to account for the individual rulings and nuances in the multitude of threads that have occurred since it was last revised.

[Ele]

Doing a subjective analysis of FTE + "sufficient raid force" in zone at the time of engagement raises serious questions where a mob such as an outdoor dragon can be engaged or pulled with a small force and reinforcement can stream in to complete the kill. There have been a number of times on this server where Talendor, Fay, and Sev have been pulled / engaged with only 1-2 people of the tagging guild in the zone, but by the time the dragon is near or at the camp the raid has arrived or at least enough people to engage and hold until more reinforcements arrive.

[Tanthallas]

I will barrage you with oversimplified claims until the end of time. Case closed

[snow_man]

For those wondering on the numbers, it was FE + BDA. I think about 30 total.

Still in favor of a /raid and let the exp from the highest DPS /raid take the phats. No room for interpretation, no crying foul about FTE, just straight up damage vs. damage.

Single group exp won't work. 6 wizards/rogues/high dps grouped up vs. a guild of multiple groups, the pure dps group will take the exp and the other challenger just ends up tanking for the opposing dps group. That's why I go for a /raid... if you have 40 your likely to outdps the 6 wizards...

[Autotune]

For those wondering on the numbers, it was FE + BDA. I think about 30 total.

Still in favor of a /raid and let the exp from the highest DPS /raid take the phats. No room for interpretation, no crying foul about FTE, just straight up damage vs. damage.

Single group exp won't work. 6 wizards/rogues/high dps grouped up vs. a guild of multiple groups, the pure dps group will take the exp and the other challenger just ends up tanking for the opposing dps group. That's why I go for a /raid... if you have 40 your likely to outdps the 6 wizards...

wouldn't work. Any guild can field 6 strong DPS.

Not all guilds can compete with the larger guilds.

[snow_man]

wouldn't work. Any guild can field 6 strong DPS.

Not all guilds can compete with the larger guilds.

That's why I say create a /raid system. Unlimited ammount of groups all /raided together. In the case of yesterday it would have meant if both guilds charged in at the same time, whoever layed down the DPS would have one between the two groups.

And the same for future encounters. No more FTE, just a straight up dps fight. If two guilds charge the mob at the same time, whichever guild/raid (not group) puts in the most DPS gets the exp and gets the loot.

[Autotune]

That's why I say create a /raid system. Unlimited ammount of groups all /raided together. In the case of yesterday it would have meant if both guilds charged in at the same time, whoever layed down the DPS would have one between the two groups.

And the same for future encounters. No more FTE, just a straight up dps fight. If two guilds charge the mob at the same time, whichever guild/raid (not group) puts in the most DPS gets the exp and gets the loot.

so, in your system, you are saying that

TMO with 125 wouldn't have an advantage with dps over Divinity with 35?

[Ephi]

So to clarify, if no GM/Guide is present to witness nor fraps/log evidence is presented, a simple FTE in the encounter log will rule the day?

If a GM/Guide is present they will subjectively analyze the situation to judge whether or not a "sufficient raid force" is present and/or a "sufficient attempt" was made?

FTE will not count if a "raid" only has one person on the encounter log?

At this point, the thread stating the raiding rules needs to be updated to account for the individual rulings and nuances in the multitude of threads that have occurred since it was last revised.

This is not in any way an accurate depiction. You cannot narrow down complex decisions and scenarios to 3 bullet points.

GMs will make decisions to the best of their abilities with the information made available to them, whether server logs of player fraps or whatever.

It has always been this way. Absolutely nothing has changed.

[snow_man]

If Divinity waits for 125 TMO to show up, that's their issue, but most of the time the fight is 2 monks tag teaming to keep FTE until that 125 shows up. If the two tmo monks are tag teaming the FTE and divinity shows up with 20 charges in gets the mob to 45% then tmo's 50 show up and finish off the mob, Divinity would end up getting the exp and loots. Wouldn't matter that someone kited a dragon around.

Vice versa, Divinity would be hard pressed to run in and charge the mob with their 35, because it would take a while to get 125 TMOs formed up into 6 man groups then manually raid invite each of the 21 group leaders and wait for confirmation.

In the end though, it would leave nothing to interpretation from a GM. GM's then have no worries about someone yelling "Bias" everytime a mob dies because they have to pick the loot winnder.

Also, it would remove the confusion of, "Do we have FTE? Should we continue killing this mob for the competiting guild?" Instead it would become a we engaged put the DPS down ASAP.

[Alarti0001]

Seems to me these "GM discretion calls" will only result in more threads from whoever is butt hurt on the outcome. Rules may promote the spirit of fairness but they are there to maintain consistency not "trying to do the right thing". From time to time, some will genuinely get shafted over something but that's when the rules can get modified to accommodate such eventualities. Not changed on the fly (however merited) by a GM. If you maintain the stance that "we'll always have to come in and make you crybabies play nice it will only lead to more drama.

GM's should deal with all other issues bugs/scams etc... anything BUT the raid loot scene (unless the boss bugs loot). People are all inherently greedy, if you open things to interpretations, they will only try to twist it to their advantage and spin it here by playing the victim card. Instead of trying to decide who is right and wrong in this instance it may be time to take a serious look at the rules themselves. Make it more black and white so little drama queens will have a harder time trying to spin it. There's plenty of options, perhaps a thread on the server board by a GM to ask the masses what the new rules should reflect will be more productive than two guilds pissing each other here.

As for this particular instance, it all boils down to how many people FE had in zone. "Raidforce" is really a tricky business, I mean it's obvious TMO feels FE was just trolling with the snipe as they didn't have enough to down CT (What is that number btw TMO? Is it like less than 40 = GTFO? Sorry :D). Cause if FE Did have legit numbers to down him then yeah from their perspective it would be a straight ks fest after they felt they got the tag. It could also be argued FE even with the bare minimum was not "Ready" to engage and just tagged early in the hopes TMO kills CT for them and they could sketch out the loot like true pro raiders (ok I'll stop :P).

See where I'm going with this? Everyone will have a different opinion and even if it were frapsed, everyone would have a different interpretation of it. Not claiming Ephi did the wrong decision, just saying the fact he had to make a "gut call" is what makes the whole rule situation silly and open to debate.

Either hard code FTE with a clear shout, if opposing guilds do more dmg than FTE guild then ban their accounts for 6months. Force rotations between raid ready guild (I'm sure the mass of casuals will all jizz over this idea). KS group determines Loot rights. Allow everything to go, training, ks'ing... and start a Darwinian process of retards until they realize cooperation is better than ass munching. W/e it is, decide on something other than "We'll decide on a case by case basis if the rules apply here".

PS: Still would like to know how many FE had in zone ready when CT got aggroed, and would still like to hear what a "raid force" is under the TMO standards.

Its not about numbers, its about the fact they "claim" they were trying to pull CT. With Fear at full pop numbers just help you down CT before the train wipes you. "Pulling" CT just allows the train to catch up faster and more DT's to go out.

Pulling CT is a fail tactic even for 40 people.

[Alarti0001]

This is not in any way an accurate depiction. You cannot narrow down complex decisions and scenarios to 3 bullet points.

GMs will make decisions to the best of their abilities with the information made available to them, whether server logs of player fraps or whatever.

It has always been this way. Absolutely nothing has changed.

I agree completely, GM's have always made judgment calls when they are at raids. When they aren't there obviously they have to go off logs or fraps.

Logs or fraps hardly ever explain the full situation so my preferable situations would be to have a GM watch every raid, or to have no staff involvement in raid disputes and allow us to run wild.
Preferably, the second option.

[Tanthallas]

Its not about numbers, its about the fact they "claim" they were trying to pull CT. With Fear at full pop numbers just help you down CT before the train wipes you. "Pulling" CT just allows the train to catch up faster and more DT's to go out.

Pulling CT is a fail tactic even for 40 people.

Make Alarti GM of loot decisions IMO. His arguments are so arbitrary that it would probably be the most equitable way of distributing loot.

[snow_man]

Its not about numbers, its about the fact they "claim" they were trying to pull CT. With Fear at full pop numbers just help you down CT before the train wipes you. "Pulling" CT just allows the train to catch up faster and more DT's to go out.

Pulling CT is a fail tactic even for 40 people.

I don't think its about the numbers, or the pull. It's the fact that every time a raid mob dies on this server, it comes down to GM interpretation. That interpretation varies each time, depending on if the GM was there or not, depending on if guild a interfered with guild b, depending on if guild a wasted too much time with their FTE pulling so guild b got default... There's too much gray space and it turns into a lawyer match after every boss dies. Time for a system that removes the impression of favoritism, the yelling of bias, and the room for discretionary calls.

[Autotune]

Absolutely nothing has changed.

Obviously.

[Alarti0001]

I will constantly lie about situations, make claims and provide 0 evidence.

[Alarti0001]

Make Alarti GM of loot decisions IMO. His arguments are so arbitrary that it would probably be the most equitable way of distributing loot.

This is a good idea. If I was GM of loot decisions this server would emulate Fennin Ro. Trust me you guys would love it. Chaos and mayhem, training unpunished!. Having 10 people or so assigned to train defense is fun!

[Tanthallas]

Time for a system that removes the impression of favoritism, the yelling of bias, and the room for discretionary calls.

[Ele]

This is not in any way an accurate depiction. You cannot narrow down complex decisions and scenarios to 3 bullet points.

GMs will make decisions to the best of their abilities with the information made available to them, whether server logs of player fraps or whatever.

It has always been this way, it is this way, and it always will be this way. There's no getting around it.

Basically, players can't read the rules and enter a raid zone and know what the result is going to be. Players will have to take each encounter on a case-by-case basis and hope it works out in their favor after the fact.

Even with FTE shouts, based on the recent rulings it will still cause different outcomes after the fact.

[Tanthallas]

This is a good idea. If I was GM of loot decisions this server would emulate Fennin Ro. Trust me you guys would love it. Chaos and mayhem, training unpunished!. Having 10 people or so assigned to train defense is fun!

I seriously agree with you on this. I would vote yes.

[Tanthallas]

Even with FTE shouts, based on the recent rulings it will still cause different outcomes after the fact.

This.

[Happyfeet]

This is a good idea. If I was GM of loot decisions this server would emulate Fennin Ro. Trust me you guys would love it. Chaos and mayhem, training unpunished!. Having 10 people or so assigned to train defense is fun!

I miss the Fennin insanity, a lot of people on here have never experienced anything like it and that's what makes them such carebear wieners.

[Alarti0001]

I seriously agree with you on this. I would vote yes.

About time.

Any time a GM gets involved in a loot decision BIAS will be yelled. In this particular instance I think there was obviously no bias. Let us manage ourselves. I dont know Ephi and Sirken is cool but in the past we have had a long line of GM's who seem to be power-trippers, who want to enforce rules for the power and to enhance their guilds. See Cyrius(IB), Amelinda(Unafilliated), Ambrotos(VD/BDA). ETC ETC.

We can manage ourselves, and staff can just develop. We don't need unpaid gm's running things other than camp disputes, cheating/boxxing, etc. It won't affect your server population the people who are still here... will stay here. Stop carebearing us and get that velious out. Velious is the best thing you can do for the population and the raid scene.

[Autotune]

This is a good idea. If I was GM of loot decisions this server would emulate Fennin Ro. Trust me you guys would love it. Chaos and mayhem, training unpunished!. Having 10 people or so assigned to train defense is fun!

sounds like

XP = Loot to me.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I think everyone would be better off if we had a set of unified raid rules. We just want the ambiguity of calls removed. Lawyers influence decisions, but only based on a set of laws, while open to interpretation, are available to all.

[Autotune]

The first rule of P99 raid rules are, there are no fucking rules.

[Alarti0001]

sounds like

XP = Loot to me.

Its XP = loot + Training :)

[Alarti0001]

I miss the Fennin insanity, a lot of people on here have never experienced anything like it and that's what makes them such carebear wieners.

Ya so much fun! Best part is we didn't take it to seriously as TMO on P99 is composed of old TMO and then our old arch enemies DoA, NoA, Severed, SR lolz

[Zeelot]

I think FTE + common sense is a good way to look at it if you want to predict which way the GMs will rule. If you look at the last CT for example, a FE member tagged and took CT death touch and claimed he was 'pulling'. There are a few common sense problems here: the 'puller' got death touched and there was no FE to back him up(thus, pull would not have occurred) and the FE raidforce was not even near CT to back him up. This doesnt even include the fact that CT has never been 'pulled' on any p99 raid I have ever been on (a weaker argument, but true regardless). You can argue that TMO engaged before CT reset the FTE but the fact remains that the CT pull ended the moment the sole puller took that DT and there was no one to back him up.

Awarding to FE in this circumstance would not make any sense. CT would have not made it to their camp because the puller died instantly. The FE/BDA alliance would not have even gotten to engage CT even if TMO waited a few more seconds.

[Autotune]

Its XP = loot + Training :)

Let's forget about FTE shouts and silly rules.

XP = loot

Any guild can field a strong dps group of 6.

That's what I said lol.

And there are people from Fennin that voted no... ?????

Like you and zeelot.

[Tanthallas]

Its XP = loot + Training :)

XP = loot + training

Loot = Nude pics

which implies,

no XP + training = no loot = no nude pics

Pretty consistent imo.

[Alarti0001]

That's what I said lol.

And there are people from Fennin that voted no... ?????

Like you and zeelot.

I didn't see training mentioned in your post

[Autotune]

I didn't see training mentioned in your post

it's a silly rule, obviously.

[Alarti0001]

it's a silly rule, obviously.

You must define all rules before I vote for it!

[Zeelot]

Fennin ro had no set ruleset. It depended on what GM you got. Some said exp wins, some said FTE in different words, and others just didn't want to deal with it and made guilds /random 100 for first attempt prior to engage. The rules here currently are much more consistant than any experience I had on live.

[Autotune]

You must define all rules before I vote for it!

the only rule is XP = loot.

why is that so hard to understand lol.

[Autotune]

take that entire Raiding rules page bullshit and delete it.

Replace all that text with.


XP = Loot.

[Alarti0001]

Fennin ro had no set ruleset. It depended on what GM you got. Some said exp wins, some said FTE in different words, and others just didn't want to deal with it and made guilds /random 100 for first attempt prior to engage. The rules here currently are much more consistant than any experience I had on live.

During the life of the server for sure. But Velious/Luclin was alot more xp based, in my memory. I didn't really raid much in early Kunark. Also, trains were almost never enforced as fraps wasnt around and GM's took forever to show up at a raid dispute.

[Zeelot]

Xp = loot is a very bad idea and should not be allowed unless every zone is FFA like VP so I can train your KS group.

[Alarti0001]

the only rule is XP = loot.

why is that so hard to understand lol.

Understand it now. Not before when it sad no silly rules, what defines a silly rule. For better reading comprehension post No rules other than XP = Loot

[Autotune]

Xp = loot is a very bad idea and should not be allowed unless every zone is FFA like VP so I can train your KS group.

exactly. training is on the raid page, so there would be no training rule in raiding.


Leave raiding and politics up to the guilds involved, not overseers.

[Autotune]

Raid Rules / FAQ



Q: If we feel another guild/party is breaking raid rules what actions may we take?
A: xp = loot

Q: What classifies a mob as "Engaged"?
A: xp = loot

Q: Can we camp raid mobs?
A: xp = loot
Q: Both raids got here simultaneously. What do we do?
A: xp = loot

Q: What rules pertain to raid mobs that are triggered spawns?
A: xp = loot

Q: What about raid mobs that are spawned by a combination of other mobs?
A: xp = loot

Q: What about a raid mob being indefinitely kited or occupied?
A: xp = loot

Q: Will the planes be open to everyone?
A: xp = loot

Q: What if our raid is disrupted? What if our raid interferes with another raid?
A: xp = loot

Q: How do we report another raid training or KSing?
A: xp = loot
Q: Why is there a spawn variance? This isn't classic!
A: xp = loot

Q: Where can I deposit my tears?
A: xp = loot

Venril Sathir
xp = loot
Non-Disputable Zones
Zones deemed Non-Disputable will have no CSR interaction on raid disputes. We will not respond to or take any action on raid disputes involving these zones. xp = loot

[Hasbinlulz]

Xp = loot is a very bad idea and should not be allowed unless every zone is FFA like VP so I can train your KS group.
Hard to train that which mobs cannot see.

ROGUE FORCE FIVE
(w/ druid healer)
ACTIVATE!!

[HeallunRumblebelly]

During the life of the server for sure. But Velious/Luclin was alot more xp based, in my memory. I didn't really raid much in early Kunark. Also, trains were almost never enforced as fraps wasnt around and GM's took forever to show up at a raid dispute.

You're probably right on this one. Velious will fix this particular aspect. Who's tank engaged it first? Who's chain of clerics kept him up? The mobs having considerable amounts of hp won't make them 5 second shitshows of dragon slapfights. New problems will arrive, however.

Pullers will be consistently fucking other pullers. Tormax / statue come to mind on this one especially. Sontalak /klandicar will also cause problems if they are pulled similar to what we see with outdoor dragons now.

Leapfrogging should be back in full effect and have new issues. Who clears the trash before vulak if it means they won't be prepared to engage vulak immediately with a guild on their ass?

These seem to be already covered, however, in the don't steal pulls and don't be a dick method of ruling, which GMs can do fairly well. I just wish we didn't have to be some kinda photojournalism faggots with fraps constantly to get things taken care of.

[Alarti0001]

You're probably right on this one. Velious will fix this particular aspect. Who's tank engaged it first? Who's chain of clerics kept him up? The mobs having considerable amounts of hp won't make them 5 second shitshows of dragon slapfights. New problems will arrive, however.

Pullers will be consistently fucking other pullers. Tormax / statue come to mind on this one especially. Sontalak /klandicar will also cause problems if they are pulled similar to what we see with outdoor dragons now.

Leapfrogging should be back in full effect and have new issues. Who clears the trash before vulak if it means they won't be prepared to engage vulak immediately with a guild on their ass?

These seem to be already covered, however, in the don't steal pulls and don't be a dick method of ruling, which GMs can do fairly well. I just wish we didn't have to be some kinda photojournalism faggots with fraps constantly to get things taken care of.

Its easy guilds work between themselves. If guild A is in HoT farming and guild B opens the door to grief them. Guild B will have to deal with a bunch of pissed of Guild A griefers.
It promotes cooperation due to the possibility of interference and mutual destruction.

[Ele]

Fennin Ro rules, or lack thereof, are supposed to help bring new people to the server?

[Hasbinlulz]

Fennin Ro rules, or lack thereof, are supposed to help bring new people to the server?
This server peaked long ago.

[Autotune]

Fennin Ro rules, or lack thereof, are supposed to help bring new people to the server?

just think, an entire guild left due to GM rulings.

[Ele]

Its easy guilds work between themselves. If guild A is in HoT farming and guild B opens the door to grief them. Guild B will have to deal with a bunch of pissed of Guild A griefers.
It promotes cooperation due to the possibility of interference and mutual destruction.

Not everyone likes spending their weekends being griefed or griefing in retaliation. Some people want to play to have fun in the PvE world and not deal with other people's entitlement issues.

Red99 is wide open.

[Alarti0001]

Fennin Ro rules, or lack thereof, are supposed to help bring new people to the server?

We never had a population problem on fennin ro. In fact we had to split multiple times.

[Alarti0001]

Not everyone likes spending their weekends being griefed or griefing in retaliation. Some people want to play to have fun in the PvE world and not deal with other people's entitlement issues.

Red99 is wide open.

PVP is not the same thing. Some people are entitled to their opinions. Some others would disagree with them.

[Autotune]

Not everyone likes spending their weekends being griefed or griefing in retaliation. Some people want to play to have fun in the PvE world and not deal with other people's entitlement issues.

Red99 is wide open.

If guilds didn't have GMs to go running back to for every little problem, shit would get worked out like it did for VP.

[Alarti0001]

If guilds didn't have GMs to go running back to for every little problem, shit would get worked out like it did for VP.

Exactly Players are the best police. Empower the players not some "force for good" who might be there one raid and not for the next 15, which forces us to compile evidence and go to trial court to play a game.

[Allizia]

Would rather see F10E

First guild with 10 people engaged: Number is low enough to take into account some raid mobs being killable with low numbers, high enough to require some coordination and support instead of just spamming Javs or bard tagging.

[Calabee]

shit like this makes me happy i quit raiding on p99.
and whoever the fuck posted the cat punt, die :(

[Hasbinlulz]

Shut the fuck up Jimllizia Jones, and take your damned Kool Aid this time!

[Ele]

Exactly Players are the best police. Empower the players not some "force for good" who might be there one raid and not for the next 15, which forces us to compile evidence and go to trial court to play a game.

What exactly is preventing those same players from policing themselves at this very moment? The server having GMs and a rule set?

Each person in this thread could look beyond the rules that are in effect and reach out to each other and form a new code on top of the server rules, but it seems far too many enjoy the RnF drama to achieve anything without a babysitter.

[Autotune]

What exactly is preventing those same players from policing themselves at this very moment? The server having GMs and a rule set?

Each person in this thread could look beyond the rules that are in effect and reach out to each other and form a new code on top of the server rules, but it seems far too many enjoy the RnF drama to achieve anything without a babysitter.

Basically, as long as GMs enable guilds to look to them to solve their problems, people will look to the "higher power" to solve their problems.

[Tasslehofp99]

What exactly is preventing those same players from policing themselves at this very moment? The server having GMs and a rule set?

Each person in this thread could look beyond the rules that are in effect and reach out to each other and form a new code on top of the server rules, but it seems far too many enjoy the RnF drama to achieve anything without a babysitter.

Yep.

[Ele]

We never had a population problem on fennin ro. In fact we had to split multiple times.

People also had dozens of servers to choose from, all of which had the same content (save for the PvP and special rule set servers). P99blue has 1 server, which incorporates people from all over the Everquest spectrum, PvE, PvP, old school, new school, never before played. Not everyone played on Fennin Ro, while a lot of the old school TMO did, and apparently enjoyed the lack of rules. Other servers had many different methods of arbitrating raid disputes or barely had any due to player made rotations or calendars or common courtesy.

The lack of server choice for the same content (avoiding the blue/red distinction) means that people need to have some consensus on what rules to put in place. But the lack of civil discussion on the matter requires continual GM enforcement.

[Ele]

Basically, as long as GMs enable guilds to look to them to solve their problems, people will look to the "higher power" to solve their problems.

They look to GMs because no real attempt at a player made code of raid conduct can ever get off the ground due to RnF and trolls invading the conversation.

It is almost as if certain players want organized chaos, as long as it is in their favor.

[Alarti0001]

Basically, as long as GMs enable guilds to look to them to solve their problems, people will look to the "higher power" to solve their problems.

This is just basic human nature.

[Alarti0001]

They look to GMs because no real attempt at a player made code of raid conduct can ever get off the ground due to RnF and trolls invading the conversation.

It is almost as if certain players want organized chaos, as long as it is in their favor.

Saying RnF and trolls have somehow prevented guilds from cooperating is asinine and beneath you.

No guilds can come together because every guild wants to much for their share of the pie. Guild will play by the rules until someone gets upset and one guy decided to play by "server rules" for the betterment of the guild.

When a "higher power" is around people can always claim just playin by server rules. Without them the guilds need to enforce the rules. Members who break truces become liabilities and they are booted from those guilds.

[Ele]

Saying RnF and trolls have somehow prevented guilds from cooperating is asinine and beneath you.

No guilds can come together because every guild wants to much for their share of the pie. Guild will play by the rules until someone gets upset and one guy decided to play by "server rules" for the betterment of the guild.

When a "higher power" is around people can always claim just playin by server rules. Without them the guilds need to enforce the rules. Members who break truces become liabilities and they are booted from those guilds.

Hurts hearing the truth sometimes.

[Hasbinlulz]

This is just basic human nature.
Humans are not subservient in their natural state. That is a product of societal pressures valuing compliance and submission to authority.

It would be much more valid to say:

"This is just basic human nurture."

[Alarti0001]

Hurts hearing the truth sometimes.

It doesn't make it true because you say it. No troll or RnF thread is stopping guild leaders coming together to talk about raiding.

Your claim is baseless. Its almost as if you want a scapegoat for the deficiencies you percieve about the raid scence. Like all things there are multiple variables. You tried tho

[Autotune]

Ele, you of all people should know that RnF trolls have little to do with talks that get made in-game with guilds.

Just remember how Ragefire could have turned out.

[Alarti0001]

Humans are not subservient in their natural state. That is a product of societal pressures valuing compliance and submission to authority.

It would be much more valid to say:

"This is just basic human nurture."

Humans are not on the internet in their natural state either.

[Hasbinlulz]

It doesn't make it true because you say it. No troll or RnF thread is stopping guild leaders coming together to talk about raiding.

Your claim is baseless. Its almost as if you want a scapegoat for the deficiencies you percieve about the raid scence. Like all things there are multiple variables. You tried tho
Agreed. IB didn't leave because of forum trolls, nor even the competition level TMO's zerg brought.

They left because, in their hearts, they are cowards.

[Hasbinlulz]

Humans are not on the internet in their natural state either.
I never said they were. Now I am confused.

You're usually either an asshole or wrong or both, but at least I can usually understand you.................

[Frieza_Prexus]

Ele, you of all people should know that RnF trolls have little to do with talks that get made in-game with guilds.

Just remember how Ragefire could have turned out.

You mean the Ragefire where multiple people cited RnF as a primary motivating reason to disregard the public rotation? You mean the one where several longstanding TMO members had to negotiate, beg, plead, and ultimately threaten to leave the guild to make their point?

[Alarti0001]

You mean the Ragefire where multiple people cited RnF as a primary motivating reason to disregard the public rotation? You mean the one where several longstanding TMO members had to negotiate, beg, plead, and ultimately threaten to leave the guild to make their point?

Wait so... it didn't get done? Im confused? Cause I thought it did get done.

[Autotune]

You mean the Ragefire where multiple people cited RnF as a primary motivating reason to disregard the public rotation? You mean the one where several longstanding TMO members had to negotiate, beg, plead, and ultimately threaten to leave the guild to make their point?

Multiple people cited wrong sources then.

Zeelot didn't like how the situation was handled and as far as I know he isn't considered a RnF troll.

Several TMO members? It was very few of us that I remember.

I can tell you now, RnF trolls had absolutely nothing to do with influencing Zeelot's decision, either time.

He gives 0fucks about RnF trolls outside of the occasional laugh.

[Splorf22]

Not everyone likes spending their weekends being griefed or griefing in retaliation. Some people want to play to have fun in the PvE world and not deal with other people's entitlement issues.

Red99 is wide open.

Exhibit A: TMO has a monopoly on VP based mostly because 99% of us don't want to deal with it.

Anyway Ephi, with all due respect I don't think you are fully appreciating the negative impact of GM decisions. I realize that laws and judges are a lot more random than people think, but IMO you should look at every nontrivial GM decision on the raiding scene as a failure of the raid rules.

[Hasbinlulz]

Multiple people cited wrong sources then.

Zeelot didn't like how the situation was handled and as far as I know he isn't considered a RnF troll.

Several TMO members? It was very few of us that I remember.

I can tell you now, RnF trolls had absolutely nothing to do with influencing Zeelot's decision, either time.

He gives 0fucks about RnF trolls outside of the occasional laugh.
Stealin, herald of Zeelot.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Wait so... it didn't get done? Im confused? Cause I thought it did get done.

Don't play hide the ball. Again. The statement was made that RnF has no meaningful impact upon inter-guild relationships. I cited the example I did because I believe it clearly illustrates that it does.

The RF rotation being honored does not preclude that it was difficult to honor it because of RnF.

Multiple people cited wrong sources then.

I don't understand the point of this statement. What does this even mean? People directly stated that RnF was one reason they felt the rotation should be dishonored. Are you telling me that you know the real motivations of those individuals better than they themselves did?

I can tell you now, RnF trolls had absolutely nothing to do with influencing Zeelot's decision, either time

But it absolutely did influence the decisions of others. Those, in turn, do influence the leadership. Surely, you're not arguing that every leadership decision in TMO is utterly unilateral?

[Splorf22]

No guilds can come together because [b]TMO[b/] wants to much for their share of the pie. Guild will play by the rules until someone gets upset and one guy decided to play by "server rules" for the betterment of the guild.

FTFY Alarti. When IB left all the players who really wanted raid loot joined TMO. Our current system gives 100% of raid loot to the players who put in the time rather than those who have skill (yes, I am aware those traits are not mutually exclusive).

I'm not judging here, just saying thats the reality. The only guild standing in the way of a rotation is TMO (and maybe FE I suppose). You also happen to have all the RnF trolls :P

[Harazzer]

Everyone stopped fighting with TMO 10 pages ago so they just fight with each other. If only you wanted competition in game like you do on forumquest.

[Hasbinlulz]

You also happen to have all the RnF trolls :P
http://i.imgur.com/KNsAm.png

[Alarti0001]

FTFY Alarti. When IB left all the players who really wanted raid loot joined TMO. Our current system gives 100% of raid loot to the players who put in the time rather than those who have skill (yes, I am aware those traits are not mutually exclusive).

I'm not judging here, just saying thats the reality. The only guild standing in the way of a rotation is TMO (and maybe FE I suppose). You also happen to have all the RnF trolls :P

Your facts, arent facts. BDA and FE have their share of trolls, not to mention all the trolls who don't play here.

And you seem to be alluding abouta rotation, I was talking about competitive raid rules. Rotations are just boring

[Frieza_Prexus]

Exhibit A: TMO has a monopoly on VP based mostly because 99% of us don't want to deal with it.

Anyway Ephi, with all due respect I don't think you are fully appreciating the negative impact of GM decisions. I realize that laws and judges are a lot more random than people think, but IMO you should look at every nontrivial GM decision on the raiding scene as a failure of the raid rules.

I think this is a fair point. I think a lesson here, if we pick up nothing else, is that perhaps CT should be modified as an encounter to somehow record who took the first DT, say if and only if, the raid that took the DT engages within 5 seconds. This could then prevent this exact situation.

Even with FTE shouts, CT is still a fight that once you're committed you will wipe if you pull back. You lose your kite, you've got a DT cycle, etc. Otherwise, you risk a rival guild sniping the 2nd DT as it happened here forcing the first to pull back almost inevitably wiping.

[Hasbinlulz]

Wait.. Did they buff CT? I haven't played in years.....

Why are people talking about wiping to CT?

[Hasbinlulz]

Is that a thing that actually happens still?

[Zeelot]

I haven't seen a CT wipe in ages. Only when there's 100+ people in the zone and everything desyncs.

[Hasbinlulz]

Ah.

[Frieza_Prexus]

My example goes more or less like this:

Guild A engages
Guild B Snipes 2nd Dt getting to be 1st on the aggro list
Guild A has aggro on CT but MUST pull back or Guild B is merited the kill
Guild A tries to camp to clear aggro and reset the encounter, but within those 30 seconds the train hits them.

This can be used by guild B to give themselves an uncontested shot at the mob or as a delaying tactic if they themselves are not fully prepared for an engage. It forces guild A to pull back with the entire zone hot on their tails and it removes A's ability to engage CT without giving B a free kill.

[Eccezan]

My example goes more or less like this:

Guild A engages
Guild B Snipes 2nd Dt getting to be 1st on the aggro list
Guild A has aggro on CT but MUST pull back or Guild B is merited the kill
Guild A tries to camp to clear aggro and reset the encounter, but within those 30 seconds the train hits them.

This can be used by guild B to give themselves an uncontested shot at the mob or as a delaying tactic if they themselves are not fully prepared for an engage. It forces guild A to pull back with the entire zone hot on their tails and it removes A's ability to engage CT without giving B a free kill.

Raid Interference = Raid Suspension offense

Oh btw, what was this I heard about Forceful Entry trying to KS a severilous last night? Getting so mad you are forgetting the rules to the server....tsk tsk

[Autotune]

Don't play hide the ball. Again. The statement was made that RnF has no meaningful impact upon inter-guild relationships. I cited the example I did because I believe it clearly illustrates that it does.

The RF rotation being honored does not preclude that it was difficult to honor it because of RnF.



I don't understand the point of this statement. What does this even mean? People directly stated that RnF was one reason they felt the rotation should be dishonored. Are you telling me that you know the real motivations of those individuals better than they themselves did?
Who, who said that RnF trolls directly impacted their decision on what to do with the Ragefire situation?
Are you implying that people in TMO, who have voices and can influence Zeelot, actually cited RnF as a reason to dissolve the agreement?

I remember talking to Zeelot and he never once, mentioned his actions having anything to do with anyone in RnF.


But it absolutely did influence the decisions of others. Those, in turn, do influence the leadership. Surely, you're not arguing that every leadership decision in TMO is utterly unilateral?

If anyone, and I mean anyone, actually believes and is influenced by anything anyone says in RnF, they are a moron.

Leadership in TMO isn't unilateral, if it was Ragefire agreement wouldn't have stood, but it's not so easily influenced by mindless rambling on a P99 Rants and Flames forum section.

[Eccezan]

Raid Interference = Raid Suspension offense

Oh btw, what was this I heard about Forceful Entry trying to KS a severilous last night? Getting so mad you are forgetting the rules to the server....tsk tsk

I would like to state that you can only play dumb about "thinking you have FTE" so many times, last nights severilous, a previous faydedar where TMO had FTE 1 minute and 36 seconds before your fail attempt. I don't believe your leadership can be this stupid, and I think there is a point where your fail attempts (or even successful attempts to KS) are malicious.

[Harazzer]

I would like to state that you can only play dumb about "thinking you have FTE" so many times, last nights severilous, a previous faydedar where TMO had FTE 1 minute and 36 seconds before your fail attempt. I don't believe your leadership can be this stupid, and I think there is a point where your fail attempts (or even successful attempts to KS) are malicious.

Why do you care, you got your loot? Dont tell me how to play brew.

[Ele]

If anyone, and I mean anyone, actually believes and is influenced by anything anyone says in RnF, they are a moron.


The RnF warriors keep saying things like this to absolve themselves, in their own mind, from acknowledging the vitriol they spew and encourage in RnF is digested and used in game and on the forums to breed hatred and animosity amongst the raiding population creating a vicious cycle.

[Frieza_Prexus]

If anyone, and I mean anyone, actually believes and is influenced by anything anyone says in RnF, they are a moron.

I disagree utterly. I absolutely take note of what people people say and do here. This forum is not license to lose one's sense of civility. There is much to be learned here, and this knowledge very much guides how I interact with those people.

The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good.

[radditsu]

Raid Interference = Raid Suspension offense

Oh btw, what was this I heard about Forceful Entry trying to KS a severilous last night? Getting so mad you are forgetting the rules to the server....tsk tsk

We just wanted to get some damage in encase your eye puller got charmed on the way in and we jumped to the top of fte. We didn't want another CT where our raid didn't do any damage and got our hard earned FTE and loot taken away.

[Autotune]

The RnF warriors keep saying things like this to absolve themselves, in their own mind, from acknowledging the vitriol they spew and encourage in RnF is digested and used in game and on the forums to breed hatred and animosity amongst the raiding population creating a vicious cycle.

I disagree utterly. I absolutely take note of what people people say and do here. This forum is not license to lose one's sense of civility. There is much to be learned here, and this knowledge very much guides how I interact with those people.

The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good.


So you both think Zeelot's actions were influenced by the RnF trolls? You think I influenced Zeelot? Or hell, you think any actions of IB were influenced by trolls here? The only guild I can think of that has been influenced by the retarded shit posted here was VD, I'll give you one guess why that leadership was influenced too.

From everything I've seen, being an RnF troll and talking to guild leaders and officers (from many guilds) the only people that are directly influenced and buy into this forum section are morons.

It seems to me, that you want to believe that people are actively influenced by this drama section. Giving you a false since that those people don't actually want to think they way they are thinking. I hate to break it to you, but the majority of people who actually control what their guilds do, control it to how they see fit and don't care what is posted here.

[Alarti0001]

The RnF warriors keep saying things like this to absolve themselves, in their own mind, from acknowledging the vitriol they spew and encourage in RnF is digested and used in game and on the forums to breed hatred and animosity amongst the raiding population creating a vicious cycle.

Explain live servers then? There wasnt an RnF forum there, yet the majority of top guilds on any server was hated on by select factions of the server anyways.

People will always hate the people on top. You are attributing too much power into RnF's hands. I bet a majority of the BDA and FE hate me. I also bet that they dont transcribe my actions or words to represent all of TMO.

Stop acting like everyone on this server is stupid.

[Happyfeet]

Explain live servers then? There wasnt an RnF forum there, yet the majority of top guilds on any server was hated on by select factions of the server anyways.

People will always hate the people on top. You are attributing too much power into RnF's hands. I bet a majority of the BDA and FE hate me. I also bet that they dont transcribe my actions or words to represent all of TMO.

Stop acting like everyone on this server is stupid.

Actually the RNF was the TMO website on Fennin lol. Eat a Bag of Hell, still one of the greatest forum names ever.

[Alarti0001]

Actually the RNF was the TMO website on Fennin lol. Eat a Bag of Hell, still one of the greatest forum names ever.

Ya All the uber guilds had a rants depository. But it was just people trying to insane things to make the front page update

[Frieza_Prexus]

Stop acting like everyone on this server is stupid.

No one's saying that everyone here is stupid. Do not presume to put words into his mouth.

The point Elethia and I share is, and always has been,that RnF activity is a negative externality upon the server. In lay terms, every instance of thoughtless and trollesque activity has the potential to foment resentment and conflict, while simultaneously possessing no redemptive qualities whatsoever.

Again, we find it telling how quickly the most vociferous and active RnF participants move to defend their activities as harmless.

Even if RnF is ultimately harmless, the Ring of Gyges has yet again been donned, and Plato's fears proven well founded.

[Autotune]

FE = Doesn't like TMO, will never like TMO, can't like TMO.

TMO = Doesn't like FE, will never like FE, can't like FE.

BDA = Doesn't really care about FE or TMO, will never really care about FE or TMO, can't really ever care about FE or TMO.


Why are things this way?

1) TMO and FE want to be Top Dogs, there is only one Top Dog space. You can't like your competition.

2) BDA doesn't care about being Top Dogs. However, they don't want to lose people to the guilds fighting for Top Dog spot and they want to keep their dogs fed.

Thus, you get animosity. People naturally start hating people that aren't with them (If you're not with me, you're against me) and naturally conflicts arise.

I've never played the game the same way I've played the forums. Most people know that, most people that played the forums also played the same way in-game as I did. Only ones I remember that were the same on the forums as they were in game (hostility wise) were VD members and 1, maybe 2, IB guys (not counting some of our own).

You can't be Top Dog and best buds with your rival and still have competition. It's not going to happen. Sooner or later, that best bud is going to get tired of losing.

[Ele]

Explain live servers then? There wasnt an RnF forum there, yet the majority of top guilds on any server was hated on by select factions of the server anyways.

People will always hate the people on top. You are attributing too much power into RnF's hands.

Are you serious?

Most servers had their own public forum run by the community, some had two or more competing forums. Many of those forums includes RnF sections and top end guilds included RnF drama sections, so what are you talking about?

I don't disagree that people vilify the person or object they want to overcome, but to purposefully fuel that fire when you are that person or object is not productive in reaching a solution to our current server's issues.

I bet a majority of the BDA and FE hate me. I also bet that they dont transcribe my actions or words to represent all of TMO.

You can believe all you want that your conduct on RnF doesn't translate or shape to people's impressions of your guild and guildmates, but it does.

Stop acting like everyone on this server is stupid.

Please point out where I said or implied this, or is this just something you wanted to throw in there? You should know better with all those logic books you read.

[Alarti0001]

No one's saying that everyone here is stupid. Do not presume to put words into his mouth.

The point Elethia and I share is, and always has been,that RnF activity is a negative externality upon the server. In lay terms, every instance of thoughtless and trollesque activity has the potential to foment resentment and conflict, while simultaneously possessing no redemptive qualities whatsoever.

Again, we find it telling how quickly the most vociferous and active RnF participants move to defend their activities as harmless.

Even if RnF is ultimately harmless, the Ring of Gyges has yet again been donned, and Plato's fears proven well founded.

So you are saying that if you attack and I defend it proves your point? This isn't logical at all.

[Autotune]

People are going to hate each other, with or without RnF.


I imagine you've all seen those passive aggressive /ooc or /shout comments that guilds love to post (some of the RnF haters have even participated in).

Without RnF, it would just be worse in-game.

[Ele]

So you are saying that if you attack and I defend it proves your point? This isn't logical at all.

He didn't say that. You have really got to stop twisting people's words to suit the argument you want to rebut. You have a nasty habit of doing that.

You assuming you can say what you want without consequences because this is RnF is illogical.

[Alarti0001]

Are you serious?

Most servers had their own public forum run by the community, some had two or more competing forums. Many of those forums includes RnF sections and top end guilds included RnF drama sections, so what are you talking about?

I don't disagree that people vilify the person or object they want to overcome, but to purposefully fuel that fire when you are that person or object is not productive in reaching a solution to our current server's issues.



You can believe all you want that your conduct on RnF doesn't translate or shape to people's impressions of your guild and guildmates, but it does.



Please point out where I said or implied this, or is this just something you wanted to throw in there? You should know better with all those logic books you read.

And a marginal porportion of the server population participated in them. RnF is not here to be a solution to server issues. If you have a solution don't post it here?

You can believe all you want that my conduct on RnF doesn't translate or shape people's impressions of your guild and guildmates, but it doesn't.

You implied that people take RnF as fact. Anyone who would believe that would have to be stupid.

[Alarti0001]

He didn't say that. You have really got to stop twisting people's words to suit the argument you want to rebut. You have a nasty habit of doing that.

You assuming you can say what you want without consequences because this is RnF is illogical.

Actually he did.....go read it.

[Autotune]

I liked it more when IB was here, least then I could talk to them in-game and laugh it up with them about what people were posting in RnF.

Hell, I think even Tanthallas has reached out to me in PMs and we were pretty civil. I seriously doubt he gets all bent out of shape at what is posted here and allows it to influence him much at all, if any.



Instead of guessing what the other side is feeling, ask them directly. See if they hate you because of what is posted back-and-forth between the guilds on RnF or if it's because of shit that happens in-game.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Actually he did.....go read it.

If you defend in a thoughtless and trollesque manner, yes. Such an activity is non-productive.

As always, we find the callous disregard that the average RnF poster has for other people to be quite harmful.

[Eccezan]

If you defend in a thoughtless and trollesque manner, yes. Such an activity is non-productive.

As always, we find the callous disregard that the average RnF poster has for other people to be quite harmful.

http://data.whicdn.com/images/16420341/Some%2520Men%2520Bubblegum%2520Bite_large.png

[Autotune]

If you defend in a thoughtless and trollesque manner, yes. Such an activity is non-productive.

As always, we find the callous disregard that the average RnF poster has for other people to be quite harmful.

yeah, I callously disregarded the other people so much, that I went to Ragefire with Relapsee to start forcing VD and other guilds to discuss the Rotation that was supposed to start.

I callously disregarded it even more when our guild was thinking about disregarding the rotation agreement that was made and told them I'd just guild remove myself if they went through with it.

I callously disregarded the other people when I tried to get their guilds into the raid scene back when it was just TMO, IB and VD. I disregarded them so much that I reached out to Divinity, BDA, and Taken and actually had some disregarding progress going on before too much went down to continue.

I callously disregarded the people in IB. I often talked to them the exact same way I did in-game, they all returned in kinds. They all hated me in-game exactly as they expressed on the forums.

I also callously disregarded VD. I never once reached out to their leadership to try and resolve our differences in-game. Not once, or twice, or even three times.

I always disregarded people in-game like I did on the forums. My RnF style was exactly like my in-game style.... exactly.

[Ele]

You implied that people take RnF as fact. Anyone who would believe that would have to be stupid.

Really? Major logic fail man.

First, you state as my position that people take RnF as fact.

Second, you assert that people who read and give any credence to what occurs in RnF are stupid. (If that is what you are actually saying, your response could also be construed as people believing the statement "You implied that people take RnF as fact" as being stupid.)

Third, you take your position that people giving credence to RnF are stupid and assign it to me, thus presenting me as calling everyone on the server stupid, which I do not adopt.

[Jarnauga]

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lols30rUm71qeiwtao1_500.gif

[Frieza_Prexus]

yeah, I callously disregarded the other people so much, that I went to Ragefire with Relapsee to start forcing VD and other guilds to discuss the Rotation that was supposed to start.

I callously disregarded it even more when our guild was thinking about disregarding the rotation agreement that was made and told them I'd just guild remove myself if they went through with it.

I callously disregarded the other people when I tried to get their guilds into the raid scene back when it was just TMO, IB and VD. I disregarded them so much that I reached out to Divinity, BDA, and Taken and actually had some disregarding progress going on before too much went down to continue.

I callously disregarded the people in IB. I often talked to them the exact same way I did in-game, they all returned in kinds. They all hated me in-game exactly as they expressed on the forums.

I also callously disregarded VD. I never once reached out to their leadership to try and resolve our differences in-game. Not once, or twice, or even three times.

I always disregarded people in-game like I did on the forums. My RnF style was exactly like my in-game style.... exactly.

Not that I've pointed a finger at you specifically, but I'll bite. My question is if the two are so different, what's the point of your general RnF mannerisms? Do you believe that it helps you in game? Does it somehow give you more credibility? Despite your supposed in-game successes, I submit that such an attitude did not assist you.

Suppose your forum persona were exactly mirrored to the in-game person you have presented. Do you believe that it is more likely than not that it might have made things easier? Or does a hostile forum persona somehow make in-game engagements more productive? If so, I'd love to hear the explanation.

[radditsu]

And a marginal porportion of the server population participated in them. RnF is not here to be a solution to server issues. If you have a solution don't post it here?

You can believe all you want that my conduct on RnF doesn't translate or shape people's impressions of your guild and guildmates, but it doesn't.

You implied that people take RnF as fact. Anyone who would believe that would have to be stupid.

I have never once even bothered to look you up in game. I have never spoken to you unless you were on some alt somewhere. The only thing I have ever seen you do is spout drivel on these forums. And with 100% certainty I can say that what you say here certainly does reflect how you are perceived.

But that's OK. I understand. I know exactly what makes you tick. Overall you know what you are doing here. We all know what you are doing here. It's how you want to play this game. I honestly could care less about you. But when I see your name on a post, spewing your nonsensical tripe, I see everything wrong with this box. I would absolutely respect TMO more if you were not in that guild. That means, to me, that's the game every single one of you wants to play.


Just sayin!

PS. IRL I think jeremy would be so much more fun to hang out with than you.

[Autotune]

Not that I've pointed a finger at you specifically, but I'll bite. My question is if the two are so different, what's the point of your general RnF mannerisms? Do you believe that it helps you in game? Does it somehow give you more credibility? Despite your supposed in-game successes, I submit that such an attitude did not assist you.

Suppose your forum persona were exactly mirrored to the in-game person you have presented. Do you believe that it is more likely than not that it might have made things easier? Or does a hostile forum persona somehow make in-game engagements more productive? If so, I'd love to hear the explanation.

Oh, I know that you guys aren't directly pointing fingers at me. However, I can't say that I know the experiences of other RnF trolls.

what's the point of your general RnF mannerisms? Entertainment. Mostly for myself, but some others (some in the guild, some in other guilds and some I don't even know who they are/were) have reached out to me in-game and on the forums with PMs to say they enjoy the mindless posts.

Do you believe that it helps you in game? Helps? no. Most often it didn't have an effect on me in-game. The only thing it did was keep people from harassing me because they thought I was an asshole (which kinda helped, because I don't overly enjoy talking to random people). When I first reached out some people were wary, but not for long.

Does it somehow give you more credibility? Actions speak louder than words. I needed no credibility gains from RnF.

Suppose your forum persona were exactly mirrored to the in-game person you have presented. Do you believe that it is more likely than not that it might have made things easier? Easier, no. Nothing was ever difficult to get across. People often were more cautious from my guild tag than my forum persona.


Or does a hostile forum persona somehow make in-game engagements more productive? In some ways it helped, mostly had no effect (very few people read RnF). The only negative it had was with VD, they couldn't get past the "omg he's acting different than he does on RnF, the truth forum". I say VD, but only in terms of the majority of it's leadership, some of the other members figured it out easily enough.


As for the supposed in-game remarks I made, you can ask any of the leaders (not sure if the BDA guys are still around) about talks with them. I know I talked to Glitterati a few times and I think Sadad from BDA, each of those had an Officer I talked to as well. I've helped those 2 guilds in other ways as well, but I'll never say how.

[Splorf22]

Alarti, are you seriously claiming that people don't alter their opinion of you based on what you say and do? That just because a post happens to be in a subforum called RnF the social circuits in the human brain shut down?

Sure some people don't take things so seriously period - I'm one of them. And I have the soul of a troll myself, I kind of like to stir the pot :D So I love to sneak little semi-ad hominems in my posts - it's what makes debates on the internet fun! But a lot of people don't feel that way.

[hatelore]

I have never once even bothered to look you up in game. I have never spoken to you unless you were on some alt somewhere. The only thing I have ever seen you do is spout drivel on these forums. And with 100% certainty I can say that what you say here certainly does reflect how you are perceived.

But that's OK. I understand. I know exactly what makes you tick. Overall you know what you are doing here. We all know what you are doing here. It's how you want to play this game. I honestly could care less about you. But when I see your name on a post, spewing your nonsensical tripe, I see everything wrong with this box. I would absolutely respect TMO more if you were not in that guild. That means, to me, that's the game every single one of you wants to play.


Just sayin!


PS. IRL I think jeremy would be so much more fun to hang out with than you.

/agree

[hatelore]

Alarti and autotune spend everyday of their waking lives arguing on these forums. I think they paint a very clear picture of their personalities irl.

[Autotune]

Alarti and autotune spend everyday of their waking lives arguing on these forums. I think they paint a very clear picture of their personalities irl.

exactly.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti, are you seriously claiming that people don't alter their opinion of you based on what you say and do? That just because a post happens to be in a subforum called RnF the social circuits in the human brain shut down?

Sure some people don't take things so seriously period - I'm one of them. And I have the soul of a troll myself, I kind of like to stir the pot :D So I love to sneak little semi-ad hominems in my posts - it's what makes debates on the internet fun! But a lot of people don't feel that way.

No am absolutely saying it affects people opinions of me... as an individual.

[Alarti0001]

No one's saying that everyone here is stupid. Do not presume to put words into his mouth.

The point Elethia and I share is, and always has been,that RnF activity is a negative externality upon the server. In lay terms, every instance of thoughtless and trollesque activity has the potential to foment resentment and conflict, while simultaneously possessing no redemptive qualities whatsoever.

Again, we find it telling how quickly the most vociferous and active RnF participants move to defend their activities as harmless.

Even if RnF is ultimately harmless, the Ring of Gyges has yet again been donned, and Plato's fears proven well founded.

Point 1: TO both you and ELE vice versa, Ele even persumes to put thought processes in my head.

Point 2: Every instance of competition foments resentment and conflict too. It is the nature of the game.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Point 2: Every instance of competition foments resentment and conflict too. It is the nature of the game.

An undesirable event occurring naturally is not license to artificially exacerbate it. That is nothing more than justification of an otherwise indefensible practice.

[Alarti0001]

An undesirable event occurring naturally is not license to artificially exacerbate it. That is nothing more than justification of an otherwise indefensible practice.

What is indefensible? This is competitive raiding. Undesirable to who?

[Frieza_Prexus]

What is indefensible? This is competitive raiding. Undesirable to who?

The context of this discussion is whether or not a trollish or conflict-oriented attitude in RnF is detrimental to the health of the server.

You stated that conflict occurs naturally as part of the game. This seems to be you justifying a negative RnF as acceptable because people are already experiencing resentment.

Adding fuel to an undesirable fire is indefensible. It's nothing more than opportunistic bullying and playground insults. It does nothing productive, and it actively harms the organizations you're associated with.

[Ele]

Ele even persumes to put thought processes in my head.

Please point out where I did this.

[Alarti0001]

The context of this discussion is whether or not a trollish or conflict-oriented attitude in RnF is detrimental to the health of the server.

You stated that conflict occurs naturally as part of the game. This seems to be you justifying a negative RnF as acceptable because people are already experiencing resentment.

Adding fuel to an undesirable fire is indefensible. It's nothing more than opportunistic bullying and playground insults. It does nothing productive, and it actively harms the organizations you're associated with.

RnF is a vent for that fire. If you notice I have created 1 RnF thread ever and it wasnt against a guild or organization. If people weren't using RnF for this reason I wouldn't even be posting here. I only respond to false claims or outright lies. RnF exists because Competitive Raiding exists. I have no problem with people venting in RnF, its healthy, but if they lie or don't cover the whole story I will respond.

I would like you to support your final claims with evidence other than opinion.
The way I see it if you let a lie stand people will tend to believe those lies the more they are repeated. Likely, some will believe it anyways but there are a few that are capable of objectivity.
Many people also want to believe information without evidence because it supports their ideology or belief structure. See the tea party, religion, politics, etc etc etc.
These people will never be affected by RnF as their opinions are already formed.
For those with fresh opinions (do any exist on this server still) would be wise to use their own evidence as proof instead of RnF sniping.

I could honestly care less if someone who is incapable of formulating their own opinions hates me because I am "mean". I don't curse at people or demean races, or classes of people. Just liars, shady tactics, and cheaters.

The only thing negative about RnF is dishonesty, deception, and belief.

[Alarti0001]

The RnF warriors keep saying things like this to absolve themselves, in their own mind, from acknowledging the vitriol they spew and encourage in RnF is digested and used in game and on the forums to breed hatred and animosity amongst the raiding population creating a vicious cycle.

Here ya go Ele

[Frieza_Prexus]

RnF clearly has a legitimate place, if for no other reason that to serve as a collection bucket for otherwise inappropriate threads.

I have not once stated that RnF should not exist. I stated that I find many RnF participants to be unnecessarily confrontational and hostile in a way that does not serve any sense of resolution or construction.

I would like you to support your final claims with evidence other than opinion.

Statements like this tell me that you're missing the point. I'm not trying make some kind of statement that needs a factual inquiry. How is your beloved evidentiary standard even relevant here? I am explaining that I believe a problem exists. I then am explaining why I feel it is a problem and why I feel the problem is made worse by certain attitudes. I am explaining a belief. You want some kind of evidence of how I feel? Would you like for me to write down my feelings and post a picture? How about some interpretive dance or maybe macaroni art?

I could honestly care less if someone who is incapable of formulating their own opinions hates me because I am "mean".

What you seem to not understand, or at least you refuse to acknowledge, is that your attitudes and actions carry ramifications beyond your own personal environment. The only thing negative about RnF is when people bludgeon others with no hope of a productive outcome. Conflict and resentment occur, but efforts should be taken to defuse them.

Promoting resentment only displays an immaturity of the highest order.

[Autotune]

RnF clearly has a legitimate place, if for no other reason that to serve as a collection bucket for otherwise inappropriate threads.

I have not once stated that RnF should not exist. I stated that I find many RnF participants to be unnecessarily confrontational and hostile in a way that does not serve any sense of resolution or construction.



Statements like this tell me that you're missing the point. I'm not trying make some kind of statement that needs a factual inquiry. How is your beloved evidentiary standard even relevant here? I am explaining that I believe a problem exists. I then am explaining why I feel it is a problem and why I feel the problem is made worse by certain attitudes. I am explaining a belief. You want some kind of evidence of how I feel? Would you like for me to write down my feelings and post a picture? How about some interpretive dance or maybe macaroni art?



What you seem to not understand, or at least you refuse to acknowledge, is that your attitudes and actions carry ramifications beyond your own personal environment. The only thing negative about RnF is when people bludgeon others with no hope of a productive outcome. Conflict and resentment occur, but efforts should be taken to defuse them.

Promoting resentment only displays an immaturity of the highest order.

Someone is succumbing to the dark side.

[Alarti0001]

RnF clearly has a legitimate place, if for no other reason that to serve as a collection bucket for otherwise inappropriate threads.

I have not once stated that RnF should not exist. I stated that I find many RnF participants to be unnecessarily confrontational and hostile in a way that does not serve any sense of resolution or construction.

Statements like this tell me that you're missing the point. I'm not trying make some kind of statement that needs a factual inquiry. How is your beloved evidentiary standard even relevant here? I am explaining that I believe a problem exists. I then am explaining why I feel it is a problem and why I feel the problem is made worse by certain attitudes. I am explaining a belief. You want some kind of evidence of how I feel? Would you like for me to write down my feelings and post a picture? How about some interpretive dance or maybe macaroni art?

What you seem to not understand, or at least you refuse to acknowledge, is that your attitudes and actions carry ramifications beyond your own personal environment. The only thing negative about RnF is when people bludgeon others with no hope of a productive outcome. Conflict and resentment occur, but efforts should be taken to defuse them.

Promoting resentment only displays an immaturity of the highest order.



Would you like for me to write down my feelings and post a picture? How about some interpretive dance or maybe macaroni art?
Promoting resentment only displays an immaturity of the highest order.
(You mean like this) ?


There is always hope of a productive outcome. It may not happen but it occasionally does.

Evidence is always required. If you believe something for no other reason than "to believe" your claim holds no merit.

Many in RnF believe TMO is an evil organization of RMT'ers and KS'ers without merit. They believe it to be true so they act on this. This is why belief is the true villian of RnF.
Belief without evidence is real immaturity. Only a child believes what they can substantiate. If a mother told her little child that the english word for a banana was "Apple" the child would believe it. An adult would back that up with evidence.

[Alarti0001]

Someone is succumbing to the dark side.

Yep caught that too

[Splorf22]

No am absolutely saying it affects people opinions of me... as an individual.

How about ingame?

[Splorf22]

Someone is succumbing to the dark side.

See, thats my definition of a great flame. Its 90% content, but with a zinger thrown in. It's so much more fun to read than the 'u mad bro?' crap that dominates this forum.

[Alarti0001]

How about ingame?

Well considering maybe only 8 people even know me in real life. I'm sure it affects their "ingame" opinion of me.

[Ele]

Well considering maybe only 8 people even know me in real life. I'm sure it affects their "ingame" opinion of me.

Should get outside more. :p

[Autotune]

I like Elethia and Xasten, I just don't agree with them on this.


Aside from the impact that RnF has on an individual, I don't see it having a negative influence on things that happen in-game on the raid level (aside from what happened with VD).

[Splorf22]

Well considering maybe only 8 people even know me in real life. I'm sure it affects their "ingame" opinion of me.

What i meant was: you claim that your posts in RnF affect people's opinions of you, but not TMO. Do you think the same thing goes for your conduct in game: that it affects people's opinions of you, but not TMO.

[Alarti0001]

Should get outside more. :p

Lol 8 EQ people... Effective troll though.

[Autotune]

VD had some kool-aid drinkers and got trolled by both TMO and IB (in different ways).

They had it abnormally rough.

[Alarti0001]

I like Elethia and Xasten, I just don't agree with them on this.


Aside from the impact that RnF has on an individual, I don't see it having a negative influence on things that happen in-game on the raid level (aside from what happened with VD).

Dittto your first

And VD was the product of belief they drank too much of the koolaid

[Alarti0001]

What i meant was: you claim that your posts in RnF affect people's opinions of you, but not TMO. Do you think the same thing goes for your conduct in game: that it affects people's opinions of you, but not TMO.

I don't cheat or break any rules in game. So I don't have any conduct really in game.

[Autotune]

Lol 8 EQ people... Effective troll though.

It was a pretty good catch.

[Alarti0001]

It was a pretty good catch.

Ele has a strong future in trolling methinks

[Splorf22]

I don't cheat or break any rules in game. So I don't have any conduct really in game.

But you do talk in OOC and shout.

[Alarti0001]

But you do talk in OOC and shout.

Again only in response, and very rarely.

[Frieza_Prexus]

There is always hope of a productive outcome. It may not happen but it occasionally does.

Evidence is always required. If you believe something for no other reason than "to believe" your claim holds no merit.

Many in RnF believe TMO is an evil organization of RMT'ers and KS'ers without merit. They believe it to be true so they act on this. This is why belief is the true villian of RnF.
Belief without evidence is real immaturity. Only a child believes what they can substantiate. If a mother told her little child that the english word for a banana was "Apple" the child would believe it. An adult would back that up with evidence.

I used the examples I did, (macaroni art, et al.) because they were absurd, not because I'm trying to be hostile or unproductive. I'm sorry to disappoint, but there's no dark side there. My point was this: I stated a belief and explained why I held that belief. I knew the evidentiary inquisition was going to pop its head, so I cut it off by asking what I could provide to further substantiate my argument. Absurd examples were simply to illustrate that.

My point was, and still is, that hostile attitudes in RnF resolve nothing and add to the server's problems and that their natural occurrence is not license to fan the flames. If you truly needed evidence that individual actions can color how other people see our guild then you need look no further than several pages back. (I believe hatelore was one of several posted who expressed a lesser respect for TMO but for several individual posters).

And finally, in our society and in formal debate we accept that some issues are within the sphere of common knowledge/sense. I suspect that my point (actions of the individual can harm the whole) falls easily within the common domain. If you needed me to spell it out further, I'm not really sure how to do it.

Though I do have some extra macaroni lying around.

[hatelore]

Lets get a magnifying glass and look at what you really posted here Alarti, judging from your responses and posts on the rnf forum.

/magnifying glass

RnF is a vent for that fire. If you notice I have created 1 RnF thread ever and it wasnt against a guild or organization. If people weren't using RnF for this reason I wouldn't even be posting here. I only respond to false claims or outright lies.

Judging from the magnifying glass, this means: I post here to protect my guild name , even if what I say is wrong,incriminates me or my guild, or is an outright lie.


RnF exists because Competitive Raiding exists. I have no problem with people venting in RnF, its healthy, but if they lie or don't cover the whole story I will respond.
I would like you to support your final claims with evidence other than opinion.

Judging from the magnifying glass, this means: I say this in every single thread, usually for no other reason then to thwart an attack away from me. Even when evidence is presented, I will just bullshit and crawfish my way out of it.

The way I see it if you let a lie stand people will tend to believe those lies the more they are repeated. Likely, some will believe it anyways but there are a few that are capable of objectivity.
Judging from the magnifying glass, this means: This is where i am really full of shit at, usually most of all in every single thread. What I really mean to say is, if I bend a lie enough and work and twist that fucking lie until it is like a pretzel, maybe enough sheep will believe it. Which makes me profoundly happy inside.

Many people also want to believe information without evidence because it supports their ideology or belief structure. See the tea party, religion, politics, etc etc etc.
Judging from the magnifying glass, this means: I like to say this, just to show my joy that my beloved dear leader will continue to destroy my country, and I will turn a blind eye, Maybe because I am dumb, or maybe because I was raised wrong , who knows?
Naww just kidding, that just sounded fun in my head, He probably seriously believes, somehow , that barack is doing a good job.


These people will never be affected by RnF as their opinions are already formed.
For those with fresh opinions (do any exist on this server still) would be wise to use their own evidence as proof instead of RnF sniping.
I could honestly care less if someone who is incapable of formulating their own opinions hates me because I am "mean". I don't curse at people or demean races, or classes of people. Just liars, shady tactics, and cheaters.
The only thing negative about RnF is dishonesty, deception, and belief.

So In a nutshell, what we have here is nothing more then a heaping pile of steaming dog shit, all wrapped up in a Alarti bun..

[Alarti0001]

I used the examples I did, (macaroni art, et al.) because they were absurd, not because I'm trying to be hostile or unproductive. I'm sorry to disappoint, but there's no dark side there. My point was this: I stated a belief and explained why I held that belief. I knew the evidentiary inquisition was going to pop its head, so I cut it off by asking what I could provide to further substantiate my argument. Absurd examples were simply to illustrate that.

My point was, and still is, that hostile attitudes in RnF resolve nothing and add to the server's problems and that their natural occurrence is not license to fan the flames. If you truly needed evidence that individual actions can color how other people see our guild then you need look no further than several pages back. (I believe hatelore was one of several posted who expressed a lesser respect for TMO but for several individual posters).

And finally, in our society and in formal debate we accept that some issues are within the sphere of common knowledge/sense. I suspect that my point (actions of the individual can harm the whole) falls easily within the common domain. If you needed me to spell it out further, I'm not really sure how to do it.

Though I do have some extra macaroni lying around.

I used absurd examples also, and often, how does this differ? Because you did it?

If you are using hatelores as an example you are proving my point, The guy is an object of faith he believes Obama is actively trying to destory this country. Hatelores sent me hate pm's and within a week was telling me how I was intelligent and he doesnt take RnF seriously, and then within 1 more week he was flipping out again. Please add someone who is rational and stable to your theory. Also, in his quest to discredit me he could be adding in that statement to harm me in some way. Its expected response theory in reverse.

Actions of an individual can harm the whole obviously. However, your point was not this. your point was that RnF warriors will harm TMO. That requires evidence to prove. Actions harming a whole is not a blanket statement.

[Alarti0001]

Lets get a magnifying glass and look at what you really posted here Alarti, judging from your responses and posts on the rnf forum.

/magnifying glass



So In a nutshell, what we have here is nothing more then a heaping pile of steaming dog shit, all wrapped up in a Alarti bun..

Case in point~

[hatelore]

Again only in response, and very rarely.

This is more bs, You are usually the most vocal in OOC when a raid target is up and anyone but your guild is in the zone haha. So ummm, yeahhhh...

[Alarti0001]

This is more bs, You are usually the most vocal in OOC when a raid target is up and anyone but your guild is in the zone haha. So ummm, yeahhhh...

Prove it? Also,


PM
Your a peice of shit fuckin spin doctor. Dude your just as shitty in game as on this forum. We were sitting at camp for like 5 min, with zero mobs, your dumbass trainer pulls through our camp. after the mobs didnt attack us, the motherfucker pulled back through the camp again then died and we got the train, we have evidence of this. Your guilds tactics and shitbags like you are why this server raid scene suck. I truely hope they ban and disband tmo for all the bullshit you cause this server. You think our fuckin pullers are stupid enough to pull directly through or fuckin camp twice? Fuck you dude and get bent.

Response
Well you seem.... mad.... This is understandable because you have bad information. I have seen mgellans fraps and there is nothing but Xerxes training your own guild by running thru the fire wall. He even admitted to me in tell he was just doing what he was told and he thought by using a gather shadows ring he wouldnt aggro temple.

You wipe was cause by your guilds lack of understanding about this game and poor leadership. Put your anger where it is deserved.... at yourselves and get better. You can blame me and TMO for all your misfortunes all you want.... but it will never make you better. Just a lame fucker looking for a scapegoat.

[Autotune]

I used the examples I did, (macaroni art, et al.) because they were absurd, not because I'm trying to be hostile or unproductive. I'm sorry to disappoint, but there's no dark side there. My point was this: I stated a belief and explained why I held that belief. I knew the evidentiary inquisition was going to pop its head, so I cut it off by asking what I could provide to further substantiate my argument. Absurd examples were simply to illustrate that.

My point was, and still is, that hostile attitudes in RnF resolve nothing and add to the server's problems and that their natural occurrence is not license to fan the flames. If you truly needed evidence that individual actions can color how other people see our guild then you need look no further than several pages back. (I believe hatelore was one of several posted who expressed a lesser respect for TMO but for several individual posters).

And finally, in our society and in formal debate we accept that some issues are within the sphere of common knowledge/sense. I suspect that my point (actions of the individual can harm the whole) falls easily within the common domain. If you needed me to spell it out further, I'm not really sure how to do it.

Though I do have some extra macaroni lying around.

Don't deny it, embrace the darkside!

[Eccezan]

this thread got really fucking boring.

[Alarti0001]

this thread got really fucking boring.

Post your Hitler video that one is always good for a laugh

[Frieza_Prexus]

I used absurd examples also, and often, how does this differ? Because you did it?

I never claimed that absurd example have no place. That, would be putting words in my mouth. We both use adjectives, nouns, and the word "the" a lot. Are we going to start parsing those too?

Please add someone who is rational and stable to your theory.

I have no need to do so. I am confident that my points stand clearly and soundly just as they are. I stand by my assertions that many RnF participants are harmful to both their own guild's reputation and to the server's health. I submit that all proper and necessary burdens of evidence and persuasion have been met to properly make my point.

And finally, I submit that the following statement is self evident and particularly relevant to this thread.

The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good.

[Alarti0001]

I never claimed that absurd example have no place. That, would be putting words in my mouth. We both use adjectives, nouns, and the word "the" a lot. Are we going to start parsing those too?

I have no need to do so. I am confident that my points stand clearly and soundly just as they are. I stand by my assertions that many RnF participants are harmful to both their own guild's reputation and to the server's health. I submit that all proper and necessary burdens of evidence and persuasion have been met to properly make my point.

And finally, I submit that the following statement is self evident and particularly relevant to this thread.

The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good.

Then you have no claim. Unless you are the arbiter of what claims have a place and when.

Ok have faith in your claim. I can't stop the faithful.

[Eccezan]

Q: What classifies a mob as "Engaged"?
A: A mob is classified as engaged as long as you are running at him.

http://www.picgifs.com/sport-graphics/sport-graphics/running/sport-graphics-running-881880.gif

[Eccezan]

I would like to submit the following fraps of the last CT clearly showing Hurley & Scorchin engaging CT:

http://gifsoup.com/view6/2154886/gay-run-o.gif

[Autotune]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7sz7kBVSz1rol9bi.gif

[Autotune]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7qruxBUn31rrmvgko1_500.gif

[Eccezan]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7sz7kBVSz1rol9bi.gif

awesome

[Autotune]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7sujeg9f01r6gj3v.gif
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7sujeg9f01r6gj3v.gif

[Alarti0001]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7sujeg9f01r6gj3v.gif
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7sujeg9f01r6gj3v.gif

Hahahaha this thread is improving.

[Yajirobe Yajipants]

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7sujeg9f01r6gj3v.gif
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7sujeg9f01r6gj3v.gif

I'm angry at you for picking on my boyfriend, Hurley, but this made me lol.

[canker]

fe engage!


http://hugelol.org/i/6100.gif

[Alawen]

I think FTE + common sense is a good way to look at it if you want to predict which way the GMs will rule. If you look at the last CT for example, a FE member tagged and took CT death touch and claimed he was 'pulling'. There are a few common sense problems here: the 'puller' got death touched and there was no FE to back him up(thus, pull would not have occurred) and the FE raidforce was not even near CT to back him up. This doesnt even include the fact that CT has never been 'pulled' on any p99 raid I have ever been on (a weaker argument, but true regardless). You can argue that TMO engaged before CT reset the FTE but the fact remains that the CT pull ended the moment the sole puller took that DT and there was no one to back him up.

Awarding to FE in this circumstance would not make any sense. CT would have not made it to their camp because the puller died instantly. The FE/BDA alliance would not have even gotten to engage CT even if TMO waited a few more seconds.

We always pulled CT over by a wall outside the temple. Then again, we cleared the zone, too.

[Bubbles]

http://web-images.chacha.com/raw/21d7db07-7148-455f-9ba0-8e4f53e50c35.gif

http://keytoann.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/a-pitfall.gif?w=450

[radditsu]

We always pulled CT over by a wall outside the temple. Then again, we cleared the zone, too.

ditto. No reason he can't be pulled with a bard kite goin, the smart thing would have been to after we got fte is to drop the kite and let everything come own us and start it all up again. Just because TMO does things a certain way does not make it the only way. We had 2 guilds together (30+ people), we had a chance to pull it, we pulled it, and got fte. They rushed in and our bow tagger did not take a shot due to it. From now on if there is even the slightest question on FTE we will absolutely do damage to it.


Put in the Hard Cazic Thule imo. He only has 277k HPs. Itemize the golems so that epics wont be cockblocked, and lets see if TMO can kite an entire zone while fighting him for that long. I wonder if due to velious being pushed back so long they will have this done at its launch. VS remains and Undead bard would be pretty cool as well. It would make stupidly impossible epics toned down to warrior /chanter level difficulty.

[Alarti0001]

ditto. No reason he can't be pulled with a bard kite goin, the smart thing would have been to after we got fte is to drop the kite and let everything come own us and start it all up again. Just because TMO does things a certain way does not make it the only way. We had 2 guilds together (30+ people), we had a chance to pull it, we pulled it, and got fte. They rushed in and our bow tagger did not take a shot due to it. From now on if there is even the slightest question on FTE we will absolutely do damage to it.


Put in the Hard Cazic Thule imo. He only has 277k HPs. Itemize the golems so that epics wont be cockblocked, and lets see if TMO can kite an entire zone while fighting him for that long. I wonder if due to velious being pushed back so long they will have this done at its launch. VS remains and Undead bard would be pretty cool as well. It would make stupidly impossible epics toned down to warrior /chanter level difficulty.


I think you don't understand what you think you do. Alawen said he cleared the zone.

[radditsu]

I think you don't understand what you think you do. Alawen said he cleared the zone.

I know what he said. I am extrapolating and fucking saying it would be possible to pull him with a bard kite going. The big IF would be getting the temple in the kite, and all those nice harm touches, or get them stunned/feared before they wreck you. I always cleared it on live. I am just using my 13ish years of eq experience to say it would be POSSIBLE to bard kite and pull CT to the zone wall. Now we will never know because you rushed in and stole our attempt we had fte on.

Thanks for the troll though!

[Versus]

We had 2 guilds together (30+ people), we had a chance to pull it, we pulled it, and got fte. They rushed in and our bow tagger did not take a shot due to it.



Your brainwashed bro. You didn't pull it, nor were close to pulling it. Your entire raid remained on the North Wall while a single character ran in while TMO streamed eastward towards a CT engage and he happened to take the 2nd DT/FTE. If you did pull it, you would have taken the first DT as well.

[quido]

Your "attempt" was pathetic and stupid.

[radditsu]

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

[arsenalpow]

New thread please. This one is old and boring now.

[Alarti0001]

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

^^^^

[Allizia]

Just because TMO does things a certain way does not make it the only way. We had 2 guilds together (30+ people), we had a chance to pull it, we pulled it, and got fte. They rushed in and our bow tagger did not take a shot due to it. From now on if there is even the slightest question on FTE we will absolutely do damage to it.

If it was so legit, why did one of the guilds in your force denounce loot rights and duck out, as this was not the way they do things?

[Tanthallas]

If you did pull it, you would have taken the first DT as well.

The first DT has nothing to do with pulling or not pulling CT. Did you take Alartis drugs?

[Autotune]

The first DT has nothing to do with pulling or not pulling CT. Did you take Alartis drugs?

if you were pulling it, your puller would have been on the encounter log.

[Autotune]

if you were pulling it, your puller would have been on the encounter log.

doesn't matter.

DTs have been ruled against as being FTE many times, not sure why anyone would have thought that it would have been this time either.


Sochin went for FTE snipe, got DT'd and you guys thought he failed, some how guide says he got FTE with a DT, your guild immediately goes... oh, we were pulling it... soandso was running to it... we had mysterious bowman on the grassy hill, but he sucks at coordinating dt/pull tactics that everyone in the raiding scene knows how to properly do.


yea, I'm gonna drinking this kool-aid.

[Tanthallas]

If it was so legit, why did one of the guilds in your force denounce loot rights and duck out, as this was not the way they do things?

If one guild chooses to abandon a claim on loot based on FTE because 'it is not the way they do things', it is of no consequence to how FTE is itself determined and whether FTE was indeed attained.

[Shinko]

stealin can i have some

[Autotune]

stealin can i have some

You guys need me to help you lawyer.

Pay me $150/month and I'll help you win all these silly disputes.

[Tanthallas]

doesn't matter.

DTs have been ruled against as being FTE many times, not sure why anyone would have thought that it would have been this time either.


Sochin went for FTE snipe, got DT'd and you guys thought he failed, some how guide says he got FTE with a DT, your guild immediately goes... oh, we were pulling it... soandso was running to it... we had mysterious bowman on the grassy hill, but he sucks at coordinating dt/pull tactics that everyone in the raiding scene knows how to properly do.


yea, I'm gonna drinking this kool-aid.

The DT is not what determined FTE. The DT has no bearing on FTE unless aggro is gained before it occurs. People get killed all the time fighting raid mobs - the way they are killed is completely irrelevant to their position on the aggro list generated by that mobs death. The order of things are thus:

1. Scorchin was first on CT's aggro list - that is, he got FTE based upon Rogean's definition.

2. TMO engages CT.

3. Scorchin is DTed.

[Autotune]

The DT is not what determined FTE. The DT has no bearing on FTE unless aggro is gained before it occurs. People get killed all the time fighting raid mobs - the way they are killed is completely irrelevant to their position on the aggro list generated by that mobs death. The order of things are thus:

1. Scorchin was first on CT's aggro list - that is, he got FTE based upon Rogean's definition.

2. TMO engages CT.

3. Scorchin is DTed.

No one knew that until after it was announced.

[Alarti0001]

1. Drui gets DT'd

2. Scorchin gets DT'd

3. TMO engages

4. FE sits on thumbs

FTFY

[Tanthallas]

No one knew that until after it was announced.

So what? This has always been a criticism of FTE - that in many cases it is not clear who got it until the mob is dead and the logs are looked at. This is why 'FTE shout' became a purported remedy to begin with.

[Tanthallas]

1. Drui gets DT'd

2. Scorchin gets DT'd

3. TMO engages

4. FE sits on thumbs

FTFY

1. Drui gets DT'd. CT resets. The aggro log gets wiped because CT has not been killed on this encounter. Hence Drui is not on the encounter log which spreads from the first to be on the aggro list of CT in the same encounter as he is killed.

2. Scorchin aggro's CT, and thus a new encounter log forms the second that Scorchin aggro's CT.

3. TMO engages CT.

4. Scorchin dies.

5. TMO kills CT.

6. The encounter logs show Scorchin as having FTE because he was the first on the aggro list of the particular encounter in which CT was killed.

7. Alarti attempts to reduce the thread about the interpretation of these facts to a shit throwing contest by consistently posing them in a confused and nonsensical manner.

8. Zeelot gives Alarti top shelf dog food to reward a job well done.

[Ele]

doesn't matter.

DTs have been ruled against as being FTE many times, not sure why anyone would have thought that it would have been this time either.


Sochin went for FTE snipe, got DT'd and you guys thought he failed, some how guide says he got FTE with a DT, your guild immediately goes... oh, we were pulling it... soandso was running to it... we had mysterious bowman on the grassy hill, but he sucks at coordinating dt/pull tactics that everyone in the raiding scene knows how to properly do.


yea, I'm gonna drinking this kool-aid.

CT's DTv.2(SuperHarmTouch), not the zone wide DTv.1, can take a while to activate, which is what occurred to Scorchin. Drui took DTv.1, starting zone wide timer. Scorchin aggro'd first after that, then people jumped on the aggro list after him, causing the mob to stay engaged after Scorchin got DTv.2 which registered him as FTE on the encounter log.

[Mon Nov 12 10:05:21 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'Denizens of Fear, your master commands you to come forth to his aid!!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:21 2012] Cazic Thule says 'DRUI'
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:24 2012] Taelara says, 'Hail, Cazic Thule'
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:26 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'Denizens of Fear, your master commands you to come forth to his aid!!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:29 2012] Kaltion tries to pierce Cazic Thule, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:29 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'SCORCHIN'
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:30 2012] Cazic Thule crushes Kaltion for 381 points of damage.
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:30 2012] Cazic Thule tries to crush Kaltion, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:30 2012] Cazic Thule bashes Kaltion for 230 points of damage.
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Biggslick tries to slash Cazic Thule pet, but Cazic Thule pet's magical skin absorbs the blow!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to hit Biggslick, but Biggslick ripostes!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to bash Biggslick, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to hit Biggslick, but Biggslick ripostes!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet hits Biggslick for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to kick Biggslick, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to hit Biggslick, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to hit Biggslick, but Biggslick parries!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to bash Biggslick, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:32 2012] Biggslick slashes Cazic Thule for 19 points of damage.

Thus resulting in the encounter log have places 1, 2, and 3.
[Mon Nov 12 10:07:49 2012] Ephi says out of character, 'FTE -> Scorchin, Kaltion, Biggslick'

This isn't difficult to deduce.

You may continue to comment about their version of the story.

[Alarti0001]

1. Drui gets DT'd. CT resets. The aggro log gets wiped because CT has not been killed on this encounter. Hence Drui is not on the encounter log which spreads from the first to be on the aggro list of CT in the same encounter as he is killed.

2. Scorchin aggro's CT, and thus a new encounter log forms the second that Scorchin aggro's CT.

2.00000000000001. TMO engages CT.

2.00000000000002. Scorchin dies.

3. TMO kills CT.

4. The encounter logs show Scorchin as having FTE because he was the first on the aggro list of the particular encounter in which CT was killed.

5. Sorchin clearly wasn't trying to engage CT

6. No other member of FE was on the aggro log or anywhere near CT

Just helping you clear up information

[iNteg]

http://hahgay.com/

[Autotune]

So what? This has always been a criticism of FTE - that in many cases it is not clear who got it until the mob is dead and the logs are looked at. This is why 'FTE shout' became a purported remedy to begin with.

So what? I just told you.

IF your guild was going to actually pull, there would have been a second FE member on that log right after Sochin or not very far behind. HE was never there. If you call for an engage, two people will hit the target in quick succession on a raid target that DTs. One to eat the DT, one to gain FTE and pull.

Your guild didn't have any of the second part, just a single person that ate a DT, which oddly enough, is something that happens on failed FTE snipes.

Basically, your guild didn't decide that they were pulling until after they found out that the person who ate a DT managed to also have FTE.

[Autotune]

CT's DTv.2(SuperHarmTouch), not the zone wide DTv.1, can take a while to activate, which is what occurred to Scorchin. Drui took DTv.1, starting zone wide timer. Scorchin aggro'd first after that, then people jumped on the aggro list after him, causing the mob to stay engaged after Scorchin got DTv.2 which registered him as FTE on the encounter log.

[Mon Nov 12 10:05:21 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'Denizens of Fear, your master commands you to come forth to his aid!!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:21 2012] Cazic Thule says 'DRUI'
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:24 2012] Taelara says, 'Hail, Cazic Thule'
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:26 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'Denizens of Fear, your master commands you to come forth to his aid!!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:29 2012] Kaltion tries to pierce Cazic Thule, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:29 2012] Cazic Thule shouts 'SCORCHIN'
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:30 2012] Cazic Thule crushes Kaltion for 381 points of damage.
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:30 2012] Cazic Thule tries to crush Kaltion, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:30 2012] Cazic Thule bashes Kaltion for 230 points of damage.
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Biggslick tries to slash Cazic Thule pet, but Cazic Thule pet's magical skin absorbs the blow!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to hit Biggslick, but Biggslick ripostes!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to bash Biggslick, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to hit Biggslick, but Biggslick ripostes!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet hits Biggslick for 19 points of damage.
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to kick Biggslick, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to hit Biggslick, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to hit Biggslick, but Biggslick parries!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:31 2012] Cazic Thule pet tries to bash Biggslick, but misses!
[Mon Nov 12 10:05:32 2012] Biggslick slashes Cazic Thule for 19 points of damage.

Thus resulting in the encounter log have places 1, 2, and 3.
[Mon Nov 12 10:07:49 2012] Ephi says out of character, 'FTE -> Scorchin, Kaltion, Biggslick'

This isn't difficult to deduce.

You may continue to comment about their version of the story.

Normal DTs are in shouts.

CT has his Zonewide DT list that starts on aggro and then he has his shout (like Innys). It's not a harm touch, it's a DT, like every other mob that DTs.

AKA, you have Cazic's touch list and then you have his death touch shouts. They both do the same basic thing.

Sochin went to pull, even if it took him a second to get DT'd, his pull partner should have been on the aggro list as well (if they were actually trying to pull)

Sochin is the only person on the aggro list from the other guild.

AKA. failed FTE snipe, they thought they didn't have FTE and made up the Pull story afterwards.

Please, by all means, tell me how they were pulling if what I'm saying is incorrect.

[Autotune]

Normal DTs are in shouts.

CT has his Zonewide DT list that starts on aggro and then he has his shout (like Innys). It's not a harm touch, it's a DT, like every other mob that DTs.

AKA, you have Cazic's touch list and then you have his death touch shouts. They both do the same basic thing.

Sochin went to pull, even if it took him a second to get DT'd, his pull partner should have been on the aggro list as well (if they were actually trying to pull)

Sochin is the only person on the aggro list from the other guild.

AKA. failed FTE snipe, they thought they didn't have FTE and made up the Pull story afterwards.

Please, by all means, tell me how they were pulling if what I'm saying is incorrect.

I say failed, but he didn't actually fail, it just had all the appearances of a fail.

[Heebo]

Normal DTs are in shouts.

CT has his Zonewide DT list that starts on aggro and then he has his shout (like Innys). It's not a harm touch, it's a DT, like every other mob that DTs.

AKA, you have Cazic's touch list and then you have his death touch shouts. They both do the same basic thing.

Sochin went to pull, even if it took him a second to get DT'd, his pull partner should have been on the aggro list as well (if they were actually trying to pull)

Sochin is the only person on the aggro list from the other guild.

AKA. failed FTE snipe, they thought they didn't have FTE and made up the Pull story afterwards.

Please, by all means, tell me how they were pulling if what I'm saying is incorrect.
The only FE members either 1. Know they were trying to FTE snipe or 2. Are incapable of understanding a CT encounter. There's no need to keep saying the same thing 100 different ways.

[Autotune]

The only FE members either 1. Know they were trying to FTE snipe or 2. Are incapable of understanding a CT encounter. There's no need to keep saying the same thing 100 different ways.

[Alarti0001]

Your guild didn't have any of the second part, just a single person that ate a DT, which oddly enough, is something that happens on failed FTE snipes.

Basically, your guild didn't decide that they were pulling until after they found out that the person who ate a DT managed to also have FTE.

Pretty much sums up the whole situation haha

[Ele]

Normal DTs are in shouts.

CT has his Zonewide DT list that starts on aggro and then he has his shout (like Innys). It's not a harm touch, it's a DT, like every other mob that DTs.

AKA, you have Cazic's touch list and then you have his death touch shouts. They both do the same basic thing.

Sochin went to pull, even if it took him a second to get DT'd, his pull partner should have been on the aggro list as well (if they were actually trying to pull)

Sochin is the only person on the aggro list from the other guild.

AKA. failed FTE snipe, they thought they didn't have FTE and made up the Pull story afterwards.

Please, by all means, tell me how they were pulling if what I'm saying is incorrect.

He (or his guild) can make up whatever story they want about their plans. It still does not change the fact Scorchin had FTE on the encounter log because CT never reset. Whether Scorchin died by a some variant of DT or melee damage or another mob killing him is immaterial to him being the first on the encounter log and thus having FTE as defined by the server rules.

Now, if you want to get into further discussion about GMs applying a subjective analysis or additional requirements on top of the stated FTE rule in the raid rules thread, that is a whole other issue.

[Autotune]

The only FE members either 1. Know they were trying to FTE snipe or 2. Are incapable of understanding a CT encounter. There's no need to keep saying the same thing 100 different ways.

[Sunnyvale]

http://hahgay.com/

I like you ;)

[radditsu]

To be honest I would love to see the entire ten thousand account per guild system to be completely destroyed and have a bunch of nimble smaller guilds competing with each other for content. Imagine if FE TMO BDA VD IB Divinity and the fucking A team were all 30ish max teams trying to get content from each other. If repops happened it would be amazing to see the racing and fighting to each target.
Instead TMO VS and Trak Squad log in at the same time, then evacing to try to snake sev/tal(which is just cash loot for them). Then they go for hate/fear and FTE snipe a guild that broke in the zone and cleared the way for the pull.

Instead we:
A) Get smaller, but more nimble, guilds absorbed into the TMO /BDA maw (VD, Enraptured) for pure numbers for 2 am batphones.
B) Having people buying quitters accounts (plat or $$$), and parking them all over the place. (Old IB)
C) Have the people with the least amount of social skills make all the rules while the administration turns a blind eye. These people grew up on a steady diet of 4 chan, Cat Memes, and Mountain Dew/Monster Energy Drinks. Instead of dismissing these people outright, they are given pats on the head by the stewards of fair play on this server. (GMs). Citing arbitrary rules to suit making a decision easy on them.

The worst part is when a group of people come together and fight this. As BDA attempted, as FE is doing. They are the ones who get the finger wagged at them, for doing the same exact things that the other guilds did to get on top in the first place. (FTE sniping and general raid douchebaggery).


You mother fuckers could have a Karanas, or Povar, or a dozen of other relatively peaceful and competitive servers. The people on this server settle for a fucking Fennin Ro or a Zek without the pvp.

[Autotune]

To be honest I would love to see the entire ten thousand account per guild system to be completely destroyed and have a bunch of nimble smaller guilds competing with each other for content. Imagine if FE TMO BDA VD IB Divinity and the fucking A team were all 30ish max teams trying to get content from each other. If repops happened it would be amazing to see the racing and fighting to each target.
Instead TMO VS and Trak Squad log in at the same time, then evacing to try to snake sev/tal(which is just cash loot for them). Then they go for hate/fear and FTE snipe a guild that broke in the zone and cleared the way for the pull.

Instead we:
A) Get smaller, but more nimble, guilds absorbed into the TMO /BDA maw (VD, Enraptured) for pure numbers for 2 am batphones.
B) Having people buying quitters accounts (plat or $$$), and parking them all over the place. (Old IB)
C) Have the people with the least amount of social skills make all the rules while the administration turns a blind eye. These people grew up on a steady diet of 4 chan, Cat Memes, and Mountain Dew/Monster Energy Drinks. Instead of dismissing these people outright, they are given pats on the head by the stewards of fair play on this server. (GMs). Citing arbitrary rules to suit making a decision easy on them.

The worst part is when a group of people come together and fight this. As BDA attempted, as FE is doing. They are the ones who get the finger wagged at them, for doing the same exact things that the other guilds did to get on top in the first place. (FTE sniping and general raid douchebaggery).


You mother fuckers could have a Karanas, or Povar, or a dozen of other relatively peaceful and competitive servers. The people on this server settle for a fucking Fennin Ro or a Zek without the pvp.

Smaller guild sizes would just breed large alliances.

[Ilakje]

To be honest I would love to see the entire ten thousand account per guild system to be completely destroyed and have a bunch of nimble smaller guilds competing with each other for content. Imagine if FE TMO BDA VD IB Divinity and the fucking A team were all 30ish max teams trying to get content from each other. If repops happened it would be amazing to see the racing and fighting to each target.
Instead TMO VS and Trak Squad log in at the same time, then evacing to try to snake sev/tal(which is just cash loot for them). Then they go for hate/fear and FTE snipe a guild that broke in the zone and cleared the way for the pull.

Instead we:
A) Get smaller, but more nimble, guilds absorbed into the TMO /BDA maw (VD, Enraptured) for pure numbers for 2 am batphones.
B) Having people buying quitters accounts (plat or $$$), and parking them all over the place. (Old IB)
C) Have the people with the least amount of social skills make all the rules while the administration turns a blind eye. These people grew up on a steady diet of 4 chan, Cat Memes, and Mountain Dew/Monster Energy Drinks. Instead of dismissing these people outright, they are given pats on the head by the stewards of fair play on this server. (GMs). Citing arbitrary rules to suit making a decision easy on them.

The worst part is when a group of people come together and fight this. As BDA attempted, as FE is doing. They are the ones who get the finger wagged at them, for doing the same exact things that the other guilds did to get on top in the first place. (FTE sniping and general raid douchebaggery).


You mother fuckers could have a Karanas, or Povar, or a dozen of other relatively peaceful and competitive servers. The people on this server settle for a fucking Fennin Ro or a Zek without the pvp.
What makes you think smaller guilds are more nimble? There's plenty of small guilds right now that can't beat TMO in a race. If you're upset because TMO can split forces and still get all the dragons, just assume we have different guild names and your 30 member max scenario has already played out. In summation - you might be retarded.

[radditsu]

What makes you think smaller guilds are more nimble? There's plenty of small guilds right now that can't beat TMO in a race. If you're upset because TMO can split forces and still get all the dragons, just assume we have different guild names and your 30 member max scenario has already played out. In summation - you might be retarded.

You are more nimble due to reason B) RMTing old IB people and sitting them in places for an engage. Nice try tho.

[Allizia]

TMO is organized and focused within, sharing the same goals. Other guilds can rage or claim they will bust into the raid scene and dominate all they want, but no one is going to be able to compete unless they stop worrying about others(TMO) and focus within to get everyone up to speed on resist gear, motivation, organization etc.

FE for example should spend the time helping and getting everyone 60 and as much resist gear as possible, do a few fake mobilizations to find and correct issues (call an Inny raid and find who is not grouped buffed and ready to port up within 5 minutes), before the ruin moral by spending 2 days on trackers (then sleeping through VS spawn) or throwing 18 ungrouped people at trakanon.

Half of the rage in the thread is just penis envy based on lack of ability, it doesn't take that much commitment to be a good raider here (exception for poopsocking). If you want things to change, stop sucking and help each other towards a mutual goal before bragging and throwing yourself under the buss.

[Autotune]

You are more nimble due to reason B) RMTing old IB people and sitting them in places for an engage. Nice try tho.

old IB were bought with plat, IB RMT'd that plat.


Learn to P99

[Alarti0001]

To be honest I would love to see the entire ten thousand account per guild system to be completely destroyed and have a bunch of nimble smaller guilds competing with each other for content. Imagine if FE TMO BDA VD IB Divinity and the fucking A team were all 30ish max teams trying to get content from each other. If repops happened it would be amazing to see the racing and fighting to each target.
Instead TMO VS and Trak Squad log in at the same time, then evacing to try to snake sev/tal(which is just cash loot for them). Then they go for hate/fear and FTE snipe a guild that broke in the zone and cleared the way for the pull.

Instead we:
A) Get smaller, but more nimble, guilds absorbed into the TMO /BDA maw (VD, Enraptured) for pure numbers for 2 am batphones.
B) Having people buying quitters accounts (plat or $$$), and parking them all over the place. (Old IB)
C) Have the people with the least amount of social skills make all the rules while the administration turns a blind eye. These people grew up on a steady diet of 4 chan, Cat Memes, and Mountain Dew/Monster Energy Drinks. Instead of dismissing these people outright, they are given pats on the head by the stewards of fair play on this server. (GMs). Citing arbitrary rules to suit making a decision easy on them.

The worst part is when a group of people come together and fight this. As BDA attempted, as FE is doing. They are the ones who get the finger wagged at them, for doing the same exact things that the other guilds did to get on top in the first place. (FTE sniping and general raid douchebaggery).


You mother fuckers could have a Karanas, or Povar, or a dozen of other relatively peaceful and competitive servers. The people on this server settle for a fucking Fennin Ro or a Zek without the pvp.



If you are smaller why do you bring 40+ on raids?

[Alarti0001]

You are more nimble due to reason B) RMTing old IB people and sitting them in places for an engage. Nice try tho.

You really are out of your depth, before we bought accounts or leveled alts we were more nimble, and to this day we still are.

Camping a toon on a spot just allows us to do other things with out other accounts.

We have consistently outmobilized out competition be it IB, VD, BDA or FE. This was due to bind spot/camp out rules and good porter communication. I generally can port 3 groups to destinations before our competition gets one group there. On server repops we can usually kill 3 mobs before any competitors even attempts one.
We even slow down mobilization to allow smaller guilds attempts on targets like Inny and Fay.

TMO has always been the king of mobilization.

[radditsu]

TMO is organized and focused within, sharing the same goals. Other guilds can rage or claim they will bust into the raid scene and dominate all they want, but no one is going to be able to compete unless they stop worrying about others(TMO) and focus within to get everyone up to speed on resist gear, motivation, organization etc.

FE for example should spend the time helping and getting everyone 60 and as much resist gear as possible, do a few fake mobilizations to find and correct issues (call an Inny raid and find who is not grouped buffed and ready to port up within 5 minutes), before the ruin moral by spending 2 days on trackers (then sleeping through VS spawn) or throwing 18 ungrouped people at trakanon.

Half of the rage in the thread is just penis envy based on lack of ability, it doesn't take that much commitment to be a good raider here (exception for poopsocking). If you want things to change, stop sucking and help each other towards a mutual goal before bragging and throwing yourself under the buss.

I agree with the first and second paragraph.

[Hasbinlulz]

You really are out of your depth, before we bought accounts or leveled alts we were more nimble, and to this day we still are.

Camping a toon on a spot just allows us to do other things with out other accounts.

We have consistently outmobilized out competition be it IB, VD, BDA or FE. This was due to bind spot/camp out rules and good porter communication. I generally can port 3 groups to destinations before our competition gets one group there. On server repops we can usually kill 3 mobs before any competitors even attempts one.
We even slow down mobilization to allow smaller guilds attempts on targets like Inny and Fay.

TMO has always been the king of mobilization.
The only reason you ever outmobilized IB was numbers and you know it.

[Alarti0001]

The only reason you ever outmobilized IB was numbers and you know it.

Thisis 100% incorrect especially since many times you had numbers on us. Especially when you allied with VD and when you were TR.

We had superior porters.

[Hasbinlulz]

lol ok

[Alawen]

You really are out of your depth, before we bought accounts or leveled alts we were more nimble, and to this day we still are.

Camping a toon on a spot just allows us to do other things with out other accounts.

We have consistently outmobilized out competition be it IB, VD, BDA or FE. This was due to bind spot/camp out rules and good porter communication. I generally can port 3 groups to destinations before our competition gets one group there. On server repops we can usually kill 3 mobs before any competitors even attempts one.
We even slow down mobilization to allow smaller guilds attempts on targets like Inny and Fay.

TMO has always been the king of mobilization.

I obviously wasn't there during the time frame that you're talking about, but I wouldn't doubt that this is true. IB started bulking up in the late spring and early summer of 2010 and the new recruits were poor at mobilization. I focused on that point during a guild meeting. I think I recall Jete and Wrei also being very concerned about the trend. We even had plans for practicing mobilization. Gwence, who would soon after become an officer, said that things were "good enough." Our concerns and ideas were subsequently ignored during the era of Ektar, which led to endless spawn camping. When I left and joined DA, DA was faster at mobilization than IB; that had previously been one of DA's difficulties and IB's strong points.

[Eccezan]

http://i.imgur.com/f78Zu.jpg

[Frogie305]

Bump ! Never Forget.----------------- Drui

[Frogie305]

Bump ! Never Forget.----------------- Drui

Let us Never Forget!!!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Pq0xYr3L4