FTE is Fing stupid

[Llabak]

As a preface, I'm posting this up here in the hopes that it won't go into R&F. First, once it goes there BDA steps out of the discussion, second I'd like people to see it who have opted out of R&F. I'd appreciate it if people would not muck up the post. Or if they do, for the moderators to trim the crap and let the discussion continue.

Ok, so it seems to me that the whole FTE thing is stupid. I can't imagine how anyone thinks it's fun to kill a boss and have a GM step in and say, "Oh, well bob landed the first blow, and even though you did 90% of the damage, his guild gets the loot."

This has presented itself in a number of cases. BDA has done it to TMO, TMO has done it to BDA, and honestly if any of the smaller guilds were on the ball they'd be doing it to both of us. Recently, there were close to 100 people sitting on their asses in Trak's lair for hours waiting for him to pop, with the loot going not to which guild actually managed the kill but the guild to which whoever of the 100 people happened to get on the hate list first belonged (as it happens, the server farted and TMO recovered faster and got the kill. Grats to them). But it has also shown up with TMO losing VS to BDA on a FTE snipe and BDA losing Trak to TMO on a FTE snipe (more than once that I was present for).

Now in my overinflated sense of importance and my thought that the ragefire rotation came out of my post http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=61082&highlight=Llabak . In that light, I would like to propose another solution in the hopes that people can get behind this and make the end game experience more fun for everyone.

So I propose a similar system to what we had for ragefire for other endgame mobs. Ideally it would be for all epic-item-yielding mobs, but at least for the ones that cause the greatest headache. Perhaps just VS, Trak, and Inny

Rotation:
TMO
BDA
Open race

rinse/repeat. Should there come to be a time where a third guild is competing for endgame mobs, fit them in.

The catch for this would be a 20 minute engage time (or 20 minute head start for Hate/Fear). This will mean that the "on" guild doesn't get free mobs. It means that guilds will continue to need to track. It means that guilds will need to mobilize effectively to engage and bring the target down efficiently, and if they can't, another guild will get the kill

The benefits are several:

1) The end of the poopsock. If there's no FTE snipe, there's no need to park people on spawn point to get the kill. It was stupid to have half a dozen or more clerics clicking the wall hoping to get the turnin and spawn ragefire. It's even more stupid to have 10 times as many people just sitting there.

2) The end of the FTE snipe. I've found it extremely frustrating to outnumber TMO 40 to 18 on Trak and yet have them win the loot because of FTE. I'm sure they feel the same way about VS.

3) Continued end-game "competition." A 20 minute window means that guilds are going to need to move and engage quickly, perhaps wiping, leaving the mob up for the next guild to show. Also, for the 3rd, it would be an open race. Ideally the guild leaders could work out a non-poopsock agreement along the lines of no one other than trackers being in VS or Trak lairs until pop. I can't speak for all BDA, but I'm pretty sure that most of them wouldn't even dream of socking if they knew we had a 20 minute window on 1 in 3, so it would be a pure mobilization race.

4) For both guilds this will increase kills on a prime mob. BDA will likely get more Traks, TMO will get more VSs. As I understand it, TMO has a month and a half VS drought. In that 6 week window they would have had 2 guaranteeds and possibly 2 more.

5) For TMO, this really isn't going to impact them terribly in terms of pixels. Considering the number of endgame mobs that spawn outside normal BDA windows, there will be a goodly number of 20-minute windows that BDA just won't be able to get, and if that's our turn, that's our turn and move on to the next on the list.

6) Long term server health. I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but there has been a massive influx of people to the server lately. I was in a PU group in OT the other day with someone from Flawless Victory (I think...mighta been Full Circle) who was sharing his excitement over his guild's first Shammy epic kill in COM. If we want those people to stick around, it would be nice for them to see an end-game free of douchebaggery to look forward to.

There are, of course going to be objections:

1) Freee merrrrrbs! and "You don't deserve it." Well 6 Venrils suggest that BDA can compete for raid mobs and are consistently taking them away from TMO.

2) "No one will agree to it." Well, take a look at the link I posted up there regarding my ragefire solution. The 4th reply is from a TMO officer saying it will never happen, and yet not long after http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65906&highlight=ragefire happened. Most people on the server are rational, despite what it appears in R&F.

3) "You guys do it to us, why shouldn't we do it to you?" Well you already do it to us, and we do it to you back. At some point the circle has to end and simply expecting one guild to stop without agreement by the other guild is unrealistic.


So there's my proposal. I'm not an officer of BDA, but I can pretty well guarantee that if TMO is willing, BDA is willing. I would strongly encourage the rank and file of both guilds to tell their officers that they want that sort of a system, and would encourage the officers of TMO to not poo-poo this proposal out of hand. C'mon folks. Let's work something out that gets rid of some of the headache.

[JayDee]

shut up

[Thatguy05]

Oh, just another one of these threads...

[Sprokets]

IB and VD went through the same thing. There was one streak of VD even taking several trak kills. Gonna take alot more than 6 VS kills to make TMO nervous. I may be wrong, just my take on it.

[Nizzarr]

We need people on red sir, no FTE bullshit here!

[Itap]

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/366/316/aac.gif

[Splorf22]

The solution is linked repops on server resets, which moves TMO and BDA and 'other' guilds into different zones for most of the raid mob frenzy.

[suptoofs]

i dont know why you have to dis' the OP, he is just trying to create less drama/douchebaggery, grow the fuck up kids.

[Daliant17447]

So when competing normally (camping out buffed, batphone, log in, group up and engage faster than other guild) didn't work out, you move on to simply trying to snipe FTE without even camping out a raid force (I think you guys had 9 or 10 in zone today when we engaged, and we took our sweet ass time), and now since that route didn't work out you ask for a rotation? lol

I do like your idea of TMO giving BDA 10-20 minutes head start on raid targets though, and if it were up to me I would implement this rule on all spawns just to keep you guys in the game. Raiding the same shit week after week without a 2nd guild putting up some form of competition = boring. And no, FTE sniping and hoping we kill the mob for you does not qualify as competing.


Also, this thread is going to RnF (but you already knew that)

[Llabak]

So when competing normally (camping out buffed, batphone, log in, group up and engage faster than other guild) didn't work out, you move on to simply trying to snipe FTE without even camping out a raid force (I think you guys had 9 or 10 in zone today when we engaged, and we took our sweet ass time), and now since that route didn't work out you ask for a rotation? lol

Goes both way. Last week (or was it the week before?) TMO wiped on Trak and sniped FTE with a skeleton crew of people, half of whom were still rez-effected. Regardless of who is doing it, it sucks.

FWIW, I've said as much to my guild. FTE sniping is stupid.

[Lazortag]

This has presented itself in a number of cases. BDA has done it to TMO, TMO has done it to BDA, and honestly if any of the smaller guilds were on the ball they'd be doing it to both of us.

I'll stop you there. Not to nitpick, but we don't not FTE snipe because we're not "on the ball", it's because we think it's incredibly lame, futile, and anti-competitive. We've never considered it, we never will, because it's idiotic beyond words. I only speak for my guild but I'm sure Acyrid and other small guilds would say the same.

[Daliant17447]

FTE sniping is real easy to avoid or overcome. If you move in to engage and another guild snipes FTE, you back out, camp and let that guild wipe. FTE sniping is never really an issue if you have someone in position to take FTE at a moments notice when your guild is ready to engage.

Trak for example, have a necro FD under trak, when you guys are ready, have that person stand and immediately DA. Or have a monk FD within jav range and when you are ready to engage have that person stand and throw a jav. Anyone attempting to steal your FTE won't be able to react fast enough to do so.

I think the FTE rules on this server are fine and allow for healthy competition. An FTE "shout" would be nice though. The only time the FTE rule is stupid is when you have 2 guilds logged in sitting on top of a spawn point. Then it just comes down to who gets lucky with RNG and its a waste of everyone's time. In these situations it would be better if it was just a straight up dps contest and the guild with the best KS group wins.

[Tarathiel]

So when competing normally (camping out buffed, batphone, log in, group up and engage faster than other guild)

i think this is the dumbest form of competition imagined, not flaming you or anyone. its just that it doesnt seem like much fun. we at BDA have been doing this on and off for various spawns we wish to "compete" against and many of us are already burnt out on it. its not fun(at least not for me, or alot of the people i play with). where is the real challenge? the only people that are really being challenged are our poor trackers who have to sit in these zones for obscene amounts of hours each day just for the hopes that their batphone will get our quicker than the next guys. and once that batphone goes out said raid target is dead within 30 seconds to a fully buffed zerg force. it just seems like that time could be better spent. then to top it off everytime a raid mob spawns a GM has to be called in to check logs just to make sure that the guild with the raid force in zone got the first hit? basically, the rules fully encourage and condone what would classically be referred to as "kill stealing." there has to be a better way for us to do this.

[quido]

I thought it was pretty fun when you sniped FTE earlier and we never went in. If you managed to do the same to us, you'd probably think it was fun too.

Next time we wipe you might get your chance! Don't fuck it up.

[Daliant17447]

i think this is the dumbest form of competition imagined, not flaming you or anyone. its just that it doesnt seem like much fun. we at BDA have been doing this on and off for various spawns we wish to "compete" against and many of us are already burnt out on it. its not fun(at least not for me, or alot of the people i play with). where is the real challenge? the only people that are really being challenged are our poor trackers who have to sit in these zones for obscene amounts of hours each day just for the hopes that their batphone will get our quicker than the next guys. and once that batphone goes out said raid target is dead within 30 seconds to a fully buffed zerg force. it just seems like that time could be better spent. then to top it off everytime a raid mob spawns a GM has to be called in to check logs just to make sure that the guild with the raid force in zone got the first hit? basically, the rules fully encourage and condone what would classically be referred to as "kill stealing." there has to be a better way for us to do this.

So what exactly would you call "good competition" if not racing to engage a mob before another guild does? I agree that 4 day spawn windows are too long, but having the spawns be static 7 day would just result in 100 people sitting on the spawn point ready to beat the mob down the second it spawned.

You weren't around to experience the days of TR vs TMO on Trakanon but it was a rush. Getting a trak batphone and logging in knowing that you would be engaging pretty much the second you got in zone, sometimes having only 20 people or less when engaging, scrambling to form groups, knowing that if you rushed the engage too much you would wipe and the other guild would get a free kill, but it if you weren't fast enough you would also lose - that shit was fun.

[Tarathiel]

So what exactly would you call "good competition" if not racing to engage a mob before another guild does? I agree that 4 day spawn windows are too long, but having the spawns be static 7 day would just result in 100 people sitting on the spawn point ready to beat the mob down the second it spawned.

You weren't around to experience the days of TR vs TMO on Trakanon but it was a rush. Getting a trak batphone and logging in knowing that you would be engaging pretty much the second you got in zone, sometimes having only 20 people or less when engaging, scrambling to form groups, knowing that if you rushed the engage too much you would wipe and the other guild would get a free kill, but it if you weren't fast enough you would also lose - that shit was fun.

while i can see where that could have its fun moments unfortunately thats just not how it really goes down anymore. i like the idea of a rotation with a 20 min to engage stipulation, and then to spice things up even more we have a "no poopsocking" clause. all this means is that instead of parking our mains 50ft. from traks lair on poop mountain we park them in trakanon's teeth, we then have 20 min from the time trak spawns to batphone, move a down a raid force, buff and engage. it would open up the playing field a bit and give us room to develop different strategies besides "buff, camp, batphone, kill" obviously this isnt a perfect solution and may still lead some perceived leapfrogging incidents or fte snipes, but it just seems a bit more challenging and alot more fun than the current situation

[YendorLootmonkey]

FTE sniping is real easy to avoid or overcome. If you move in to engage and another guild snipes FTE, you back out, camp and let that guild wipe. FTE sniping is never really an issue if you have someone in position to take FTE at a moments notice when your guild is ready to engage.


If you can tell who actually got FTE, yes. However, don't sit here and tell me you can, when there have been multiple instances of GMs having to go back through encounter logs to determine FTE and re-awarding loot.

Don't tell me the mantra isn't "turn in your epic items ASAP so the GMs can't take them away" on a questionable FTE.

Having raid mobs shout/indicate FTE is the only way to go to prevent the FTE drama. Then, the guild without FTE can do what you said above. Unfortunately, I've been told Velious is the priority vs. implementing anything that would lessen GM involvement in the raid scene. Right now, since FTE is questionable, the only option is to stay and finish the kill and ask for a review of the encounter logs... which is stupid.

[Splorf22]

Or you could have simultaneous repops, and the thrill of trying to take down targets as fast as possible in the hope of getting more than your fair share. I'm sure no one has suggested this before.

[Tarathiel]

Or you could have simultaneous repops, and the thrill of trying to take down targets as fast as possible in the hope of getting more than your fair share. I'm sure no one has suggested this before.

this would require coding and dev involvement which like yendor has stated is not a priority right now(thankfully!!!! yay velious!!!) what the OP has suggested requires neither GM nor Dev involvement just a little bit of respect and honor among players.

[Kraftwerk]

Unfortunately, I've been told Velious is the priority vs. implementing anything that would lessen GM involvement in the raid scene.

As an aside, the other way of looking at that is when Velious comes out there are tons more raid targets and things to do, so while we're all occupied with non poopsocking endeavors they can come up with good plans to stop the FTE madness.

Also I was there during that 110 people in OS shitfest last Sunday. If the lag hadn't spiked everyone out Trak would've died in like 5 seconds and then GM petition for FTE. Doesn't TMO want us in VP, then they can train us for legit and kill us. I like your idea Berty, even if I don't raid much so my opinion is far from mattering.

[Naerron]

Someone took an adderall and logged onto the forums!!

[Daliant17447]

If you can tell who actually got FTE, yes. However, don't sit here and tell me you can, when there have been multiple instances of GMs having to go back through encounter logs to determine FTE and re-awarding loot.


The cases where GMs have to check encounter logs are the situations where you have 2 guilds sitting on a spawn point and the mob spawns and goes into "seek mode". Its impossible to tell who got FTE in these situations without a GM checking encounter logs. OR situations where idiots "think" they got FTE and petition for a GM to come confirm that they are idiots (today for example).

For situations where a mob is just chilling un-engaged (like Trakanon), its pretty simple really - don't send your guild in unless you are 100% that you engaged first.

[Xanthias]

The cases where GMs have to check encounter logs are the situations where you have 2 guilds sitting on a spawn point and the mob spawns and goes into "seek mode". Its impossible to tell who got FTE in these situations without a GM checking encounter logs.

For situations where a mob is just chilling un-engaged (like Trakanon), its pretty simple really - don't send your guild in unless you are 100% that you engaged first.

The only FTE change I'd like to see is First to ENGAGE, not first to be beat on by a mob...
Seek mode FTE is dumb imo.

[Portsche]

BDA's little FTE Snipe attempt today on Trak with 8-9 people was pretty stupid. We've been through this in the past with TMO/TR. TR beat us, got the FTE...but they only had 12-15 or so people in the zone. No way were they killing Trak with that. Rogean showed up, noticed their numbers, and for lack of a better wording, told them to piss off and awarded the kill/loots to TMO.

The idiots in BDA that are feeding the rest of their guild all the crap need to get their info straight. Learn the rules, learn what has happened in various situations in the past, and work with it. Whining gets you nowhere, haven't you figured that out yet?

The only way you're getting a rotation out of TMO is by consistently beating us with the rules the way they are now. Same way we did it to TR/IB.
Well 6 Venrils suggest that BDA can compete for raid mobs and are consistently taking them away from TMO.
And VS can be one-grouped, so your logic is flawed on that.

[Cippofra]

I seem to remember even with Fires of Heaven on veeshan people simply set up rotations. Dont understand what reasoning there could possibly be for fte. If you dont have a present force capable of handling the encounter, you deserve a wipe and nothing else. The childish games are ridiculous for a server of this caliber

[falkun]

BDA's little FTE Snipe attempt today on Trak with 8-9 people was pretty stupid. We've been through this in the past with TMO/TR. TR beat us, got the FTE...but they only had 12-15 or so people in the zone. No way were they killing Trak with that. Rogean showed up, noticed their numbers, and for lack of a better wording, told them to piss off and awarded the kill/loots to TMO.

Or more recently TMO FTE sniped Trak with 17 in zone, but was still awarded loot. Your low numbers argument is not valid with recent decisions. Sirken, for better or worse, has stuck strictly to FTE, almost to the point of disregarding his own statement in Server chat.

I'm still a fan of the FTE shout, but I've heard that can be abused. I don't understand how FTE shout can be abused any more than FTE though, since the shout is built off the same mechanic as the actual event. If you can't abuse the event, how can you abuse the recording of said event?

[quido]

It's not too ridiculous to ask for a rotation. There's no harm in asking. Go ahead and ask! BDA doesn't show up to contest most raids these days, and maybe some of you don't remember VD asking from a much more firm bargaining position, and maybe you don't remember the response, but you've got nothing to lose, right? I can appreciate this.

What I do find to be pretty ludicrous, however, is your proposed rotation's allotment! Defaulting 1/3 of mobs and half of non-open mobs to BDA. Don't you think that's pretty generous? If VD had come to us and suggested them getting one slot to us getting say three, it might have actually been considered for showing surprising realism (though ultimately declined because rotations are stupid - I never advocated one even when I was trying really hard with my guild and not killing anything). You come and ask for an even split when your camp is looking pretty sparse? Ok.

My honest and friendly advice to you is to keep doing what you're doing. Come sit on a couple of the targets that you actually want, and maybe someday if you again wield some interest in being a real competitive raid guild again, come at us with the same sort of discretion in mind. I have always respected BDA's ability to choose their battles mostly wisely; don't spread yourselves thin. And don't pour your heart into a lost cause like asking for a rotation. We're against it, the staff is against it - it's not going to happen.

<object width="960" height="720"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MPnudujlBZI?version=3&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MPnudujlBZI?version=3&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="960" height="720" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

[Barkingturtle]

It's no wonder Jesse Jackson's kid grew up crazy.

The streets are no place for a boy.

[suptoofs]

Before anything, I am not flaming anyone in TMO

But seriously, how many of these Kubark raid bosses could you possibly still need? Aside from VP and possible a few epic piece kills? Your alts alts alt alt has to be fully equipped by now.

[quido]

My main isn't fully equipped.

[kbnexus]

Goes both way. Last week (or was it the week before?) TMO wiped on Trak and sniped FTE with a skeleton crew of people, half of whom were still rez-effected. Regardless of who is doing it, it sucks.

FWIW, I've said as much to my guild. FTE sniping is stupid.

.... except our skeleton crew was 26 VP geared raiders.....way more than enough to kill Trak.

So really..... it doesnt go both ways, as much as BDA likes to delude itself.

[kbnexus]

IB and VD went through the same thing. There was one streak of VD even taking several trak kills. Gonna take alot more than 6 VS kills to make TMO nervous. I may be wrong, just my take on it.

They only got 5, and not in a row.

[toyodafenninro]

Before anything, I am not flaming anyone in TMO

But seriously, how many of these Kubark raid bosses could you possibly still need? Aside from VP and possible a few epic piece kills? Your alts alts alt alt has to be fully equipped by now.


This question seems to come up in nearly every discussion I witness on the topic of endgame raid mob distribution. TMO does not raid to gear mains, alts, alts of alts - etc. We raid to kill mobs. We raid to compete. The loot, whoever we award it to, is a by-product of our efforts, not the goal. If TMO ever stops raiding and throws in the towel, which I don't see happening any time soon, it will be because we no longer want to kill raid mobs and compete - never because we don't "need" the loot.

--Upbeat

[suptoofs]

This question seems to come up in nearly every discussion I witness on the topic of endgame raid mob distribution. TMO does not raid to gear mains, alts, alts of alts - etc. We raid to kill mobs. We raid to compete. The loot, whoever we award it to, is a by-product of our efforts, not the goal. If TMO ever stops raiding and throws in the towel, which I don't see happening any time soon, it will be because we no longer want to kill raid mobs and compete - never because we don't "need" the loot.

--Upbeat

What are you competing against? It seems that most guilds are casual raiding, and even then, by the time a smaller guild mobilizes the boss is already down. :p

[kbnexus]

.



Rotation:
TMO
BDA

4) For both guilds this will increase kills on a prime mob. BDA will likely get more Traks, TMO will get more VSs. As I understand it, TMO has a month and a half VS drought. In that 6 week window they would have had 2 guaranteeds and possibly 2 more.

5) For TMO, this really isn't going to impact them terribly in terms of pixels. Considering the number of endgame mobs that spawn outside normal BDA windows, there will be a goodly number of 20-minute windows that BDA just won't be able to get, and if that's our turn, that's our turn and move on to the next on the list.



Here is my proposed rotation

VS:
TMO

Trakanon:
TMO

Other shit
TMO
TMO
BDA
Open

4)You are misinformed we got this vs and one two spawns ago.
5)We don't raid for pixels. We are a raiding guild who raids too.....RAID derp. If we stop raiding TMO has no purpose here. We are trying to maintain interest by gearing alts and continuing to gear mains and new players while we wait... FOREVER for Velious.
So no we aren't going to stop doing what we are doing for... you?

[toyodafenninro]

What are you competing against? It seems that most guilds are casual raiding, and even then, by the time a smaller guild mobilizes the boss is already down. :p

No offense, but this question seems a bit odd considering the nature of the OP's post, but I'll bite. We are competing against other guilds. At the moment the main competitor is BDA. I suspect, although I cannot prove it, that other competition will manifest itself with the approach of velious and the attainment of level 60 by many of the new players mentioned in earlier replies.

We also compete against ourselves. We discuss how well, or poorly, we did on any particular encounter or mobilization. If we wipe, we talk about it.

Competition doesn't necessarily mean a near-tie 100% of the time.

[suptoofs]

No offense, but this question seems a bit odd considering the nature of the OP's post, but I'll bite. We are competing against other guilds. At the moment the main competitor is BDA. I suspect, although I cannot prove it, that other competition will manifest itself with the approach of velious and the attainment of level 60 by many of the new players mentioned in earlier replies.

We also compete against ourselves. We discuss how well, or poorly, we did on any particular encounter or mobilization. If we wipe, we talk about it.

Competition doesn't necessarily mean a near-tie 100% of the time.

There aren't any guilds really competing against you, BDA barely manages to and you call them your main competitor. rofl. When velious pops the playing field will be more level only because there will be a decent increase in raid targets.

[Ravager]

The only way you're getting a rotation out of TMO is by consistently beating us with the rules the way they are now. Same way we did it to TR/IB.

And VS can be one-grouped, so your logic is flawed on that.

With this attitude and the way TMO approaches other guilds on this server, if any other guild present or future consistently beats TMO to mobs, I'd say good luck getting a rotation.

[toyodafenninro]

There aren't any guilds really competing against you, BDA barely manages to and you call them your main competitor. rofl. When velious pops the playing field will be more level only because there will be a decent increase in raid targets.

If everyone else is doing a poor job mobilizing, and BDA manages to be the best of those who try - yea, they are our main competitor. "rofl."

When Velious pops, I assure you we will be doing everything in our power to kill as many of the available raid targets, regardless of how well the closest competition is doing or how much loot we need. Will that be more difficult to do, and thus "level" the playing field? Maybe, but I wouldn't count on it. There's easily 40-50 inactive TMO players who will be returning when Winter is REALLY coming. We also have our alts, which can be leveled to 60 to provide more coverage. Maybe we'll raid on two factions! Maybe we'll go to Disneyland...

I just wouldn't assume that suddenly there will be opportunity to casually saunter to raid targets and easily get loots, just because more of said targets exist.

[suptoofs]

If everyone else is doing a poor job mobilizing, and BDA manages to be the best of those who try - yea, they are our main competitor. "rofl."

When Velious pops, I assure you we will be doing everything in our power to kill as many of the available raid targets, regardless of how well the closest competition is doing or how much loot we need. Will that be more difficult to do, and thus "level" the playing field? Maybe, but I wouldn't count on it. There's easily 40-50 inactive TMO players who will be returning when Winter is REALLY coming. We also have our alts, which can be leveled to 60 to provide more coverage. Maybe we'll raid on two factions! Maybe we'll go to Disneyland...

I just wouldn't assume that suddenly there will be opportunity to casually saunter to raid targets and easily get loots, just because more of said targets exist.

Every other guild on this server is too casual right now to present any real competition.

[toyodafenninro]

With this attitude and the way TMO approaches other guilds on this server, if any other guild present or future consistently beats TMO to mobs, I'd say good luck getting a rotation.

If TMO was being consistently beaten, we wouldn't ask for a rotation. We would recruit more active players and step up our game. We'd do our best to make life hell for the other guild by contesting as many spawns as we could. A rotation would happen only if both guilds became mutually tired of the standstill. That's not the current case for the majority of raid mobs on the server.

[toyodafenninro]

Every other guild on this server is too casual right now to present any real competition.

Then let's hope they step up their game. Until then, lucky us.

[Splorf22]

Your game consists of sitting there for hours hitting the track button and being willing to jump up from the dinner table to log on at a moments notice.

I suppose winning is winning, but I just don't see how you can be so proud of this.

[Ravager]

We'd do our best to make life hell for the other guild by contesting as many spawns as we could.

Competition sure would be more appealing to the rest of the server if it didn't come down to making life hell. This is a game after all. If TMO actually wanted to compete, they'd be more open to playing with suggestions like the OP has posted. If it's truly competition you wanted, you'd also look at the pop and realize that all the hard cores are in your own guild and the majority of the server is casual. Of course there will be no competition in those circumstances. I don't think TMO wants to compete, I think TMO wants to control.

[Arrisard]

If OP was serious about wanting to negotiate the terms of a rotation, he would have contacted an officer/Zeelot ingame or PM here/TMO boards.

But that isn't nearly as fun, is it?

No, instead we get a post in Server Chat/RNF with some outright ridiculous terms "for the good of the server" with completely altruistic intentions.

Get real :rolleyes:

[Adrieth]

If OP was serious about wanting to negotiate the terms of a rotation, he would have contacted an officer/Zeelot ingame or PM here/TMO boards.

But that isn't nearly as fun, is it?

No, instead we get a post in Server Chat/RNF with some outright ridiculous terms "for the good of the server" with completely altruistic intentions.

Get real :rolleyes:

We've been down the road of trying to contact your leadership -- a pointless exercise IMO (even for stupid little things like sharing Cazic Skins with each other). Berty was putting this in a public forum for a good discussion, which it seems we're actually having! Keep it up! ;)

[Arrisard]

Oh, I never said anything would come of it.

But that's the point. You're not getting a rotation anytime soon. I know it, you know it, OP knows it. This thread has nothing to do with the actual expectation of coming to an agreement. It's all fluff and circle jerking.

[suptoofs]

Oh, I never said anything would come of it.

But that's the point. You're not getting a rotation anytime soon. I know it, you know it, OP knows it. This thread has nothing to do with the actual expectation of coming to an agreement. It's all fluff and circle jerking.

Then why suggest trying that, contradiction much?

[Adrieth]

Oh, I never said anything would come of it.

But that's the point. You're not getting a rotation anytime soon. I know it, you know it, OP knows it. This thread has nothing to do with the actual expectation of coming to an agreement. It's all fluff and circle jerking.

I don't think that's entirely true, honestly. I think in the right forum, with the right input from all sides, we can figure something out.

My personal take: This is a 13 year old game, and most of the people playing here have hardcore raiding experience from live. Frankly, I don't want a repeat of it. The days of waking up at 3am to log in for a kill are over for me. We're doing really stupid things for really old, boxy pixels. I'm willing to give some of mine up to have fun with others, and to let others have fun. I have to believe that many members of TMO would agree to this, despite their public remarks (you really like logging in that early for something that will end up being deleted in the end?).

However, as long as there is a guild out there who is taking this just as seriously as they did 10 years ago, no truce will be had. That much I can agree with.

[Arrisard]

Like Jeremy said, you can always try. I could be wrong. I would expect BDA leadership/members to do whatever they felt was right to try and do the best by their guild.

The thread, however, is still bullshit.

[falkun]

If OP was serious about wanting to negotiate the terms of a rotation, he would have contacted an officer/Zeelot ingame or PM here/TMO boards.

Either form of contact yields identical results. Can ask Coldblooded or Sanluen how well direct, discrete negotiation attempts work with TMO officers.

Upbeat, you're ignoring Loraen's point: The rest of the server is more casual, there isn't a hardcore playerbase for non-TMO to draw from. I doubt even your latest acquisition, Enraptured, is that hardcore.

I do understand the wanting to compete, and I have no issues with it. The issue comes when TMO utilizes underhanded tactics, but then complains when underhanded tactics are used against them. This statement is equally true for BDA. BDA aggroes VS with 3 in zone and gets the kill, TMO aggroes Trak with 15 in the zone and gets the kill. But, like nuclear disarmament, neither side really makes any progress towards bettering the atmosphere, its just an arms race towards FTE.

[Tarathiel]

We're against it, the staff is against it - it's not going to happen.


is this really the case? or is the staff just against a GM monitored rotation. ive seen them chime in on these thread before and while they do allude to the fact that they do not want to be the moderators of said rotation. As far as i can see they would have to be extremely masochistic to not encourage the players to get along with as minimal gm involvement that is possible. obviously the OP's rotation idea isnt perfect, but thats why its here for open discussion. its not about wanting free mobs or free loot, its about wanting to be able to experience some of the content that many of us may have missed back in the day. but because some elite group of "hardcore"(lol i laugh at this statement, nothing about sitting on your ass for hours a day playing video games is "hardcore") raiders has decided that every mob on this server belongs to them, the rest of us "casuals" are ass out

i would hope a staff member who deals with these situations on a regular basis would be all for anything that would lessen his work load

::::edit::::

so far im only seeing BDA and TMO posting in this thread, id like to hear more from the other guilds, how do you guys feel about the current raid scene? how do you feel about an open slot on a rotation? i cant speak for all of BDA but i know many of us probably wouldnt even mobilize if we thought one of the smaller guilds had a shot at a target they otherwise wouldnt have had.

[falkun]

The GMs do not want to enforce a rotation, but Nilbog has bluntly stated leapfrogging is stupid. Sirken also agrees FTE is a flawed metric, but its all the GM staff have to go by.

I'm sure the GM staff would be just as happy to not have to respond to petitions at 3AM as well.

[Adrieth]

so far im only seeing BDA and TMO posting in this thread, id like to hear more from the other guilds, how do you guys feel about the current raid scene? how do you feel about an open slot on a rotation? i cant speak for all of BDA but i know many of us probably wouldnt even mobilize if we thought one of the smaller guilds had a shot at a target they otherwise wouldnt have had.

This. I would love to see some other guilds enter the raid scene, but only if it gave them a chance to actually compete without having to resort to everything we've had to in the past (which we're obviously tired of).

[Itap]

So what I've gathered from this thread is, from TMO members' point of view, if you have a full time job, kids, wife, family, ect., you will not really have a chance to experience the end game. Shouldn't everyone have a chance to experience it, no matter how casual/hardcore?

I can dedicate a fair share of time to EQ on certain days, but theres no way in hell i can log on in the middle of the day to kill a raid mob.

Don't take this question the wrong way, this isn't a sob story, just a legitimate question

[Adrieth]

So, here's a proposal I'd like feedback on from TMO and other guilds. Similar to Berty's suggestion, but laid out plain and simple.

For regular Kunark and Planar raid mobs, the following should be considered:

Each guild willing to participate in the rotation takes 1 turn (20 minute head start/engage rule), alternated with an open race. This applies to: Venril Sathir, Trakanon, Cazic Thule, Inny, Maestro, Gore, Sev, Tal. So, a simulated rotation would be:

1. TMO
2. Open Race
3. BDA
4. Open Race
5. Divinity
etc.

Once the 20 minutes are up, it becomes a race/FTE situation. It's no secret TMO will likely continue to win most races, so you get all the shiny pixels you can handle. This schedule allows for better server involvement, more competition for TMO/BDA (which we all claim to want), and still enforces all guilds to keep track of spawn timers and trackers in zone.

Draco remains a fully contested spawn, VP remains fully contested with existing rules.

What's wrong with it? Go.

[quido]

Lol, it never ends.

[Adrieth]

Lol, it never ends.

Good comeback.

[Daliant17447]

Heres what I would propose for a rotation

Trakanon:
Open race
BDA gets 10 minute head start
Any guild but TMO/BDA get a 20 minute head start
-repeat-

VS:
Open race
Open race
Any guild but TMO/BDA get a 20 minute head start
-repeat-

Cazic Thule:
Open race
BDA gets 15 minute head start
Any guild but TMO/BDA get a 30 minute head start
-repeat-

Innoruuk
Open race
BDA gets 10 minute head start
Any guild but TMO/BDA get a 20 minute head start

All other targets are open race every spawn

[suptoofs]

Lol, it never ends.

Why can't you ever say something constructive? You're retorts are always douchey

[quido]

Don't be dense. You know the reasons why not as well as I do.

[Tarathiel]

Lol, it never ends.

what never ends? please tell us more about how TMO owns every mob on the server and how us spoiled little casuals just want free shit, please TMO unless you have something constructive to add to the conversation lets not muck it up. if you guys have no interest in a rotation then back out of this thread and let us continue the conversation with people that do

[suptoofs]

Don't be dense. You know the reasons why not as well as I do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6NNGVHrqho

[quido]

Hey say what you will, I just think you guys are really dumb to press for a rotation, especially a rotation that includes the highest priority targets where you think you deserve as many freebies as us.

That is why I say it never ends - because such blindness doesn't end.

If you'd actually thought about this you'd try to press for an outdoor dragon rotation or something more reasonable. But no, you want free Trakanons and VSs, so who gives a fuck if what we propose is ludicrous?! WE WANT THEM.

[Adrieth]

Heres what I would propose for a rotation

Trakanon:
Open race
BDA gets 10 minute head start
Any guild but TMO/BDA get a 20 minute head start
-repeat-

VS:
Open race
Open race
Any guild but TMO/BDA get a 20 minute head start
-repeat-

Cazic Thule:
Open race
BDA gets 15 minute head start
Any guild but TMO/BDA get a 30 minute head start
-repeat-

Innoruuk
Open race
BDA gets 10 minute head start
Any guild but TMO/BDA get a 20 minute head start

All other targets are open race every spawn

I'm okay with this, but in the interest of fairness, I would like to see things carved out specifically for TMO as well. You all should get some easy kills (ya ya, they're all easy, blah blah. I'm just saying: let's make it fair to all parties). Also, the head start timer should be flat for all guilds. That would encourage progression of each guild with an even expectation for all.

[quido]

lol I'm sorry, this is too much

[Adrieth]

Hey say what you will, I just think you guys are really dumb to press for a rotation, especially a rotation that includes the highest priority targets where you think you deserve as many freebies as us.

That is why I say it never ends - because such blindness doesn't end.

If you'd actually thought about this you'd try to press for an outdoor dragon rotation or something more reasonable. But no, you want free Trakanons and VSs, so who gives a fuck if what we propose is ludicrous?! WE WANT THEM.

I have to be honest here, no one is saying we want free loot. What we are saying is we want everyone to have a chance to experience content that was so much fun in the past. This is why when TMO has been suspended or prohibited from engaging raid mobs we (BDA) have immediately stepped up and opened the spawn to the server. Yes, we shot ourselves in the foot with the last Draco thing. Our bad for trying to improve the community.

We can start with outdoor dragons, let's do a beta run to see how the server feels about it.

[Tarathiel]

Hey say what you will, I just think you guys are really dumb to press for a rotation, especially a rotation that includes the highest priority targets where you think you deserve as many freebies as us.



the problem with this is that TMO will never have the "competition" it desires from the current guilds on the server. if there was another IB or TR on the server then yes i would probably agree with you guys. but as it stands TMO can claim 90% of the "hardcore" raiders as their own. all the casuals are asking for is a shot at few mobs without the constant fear of being trained, leapfrogged, fte sniped or rules lawyered out of the kill. at the end of the day this is a PVE server, the majority of the people that are joining are "casual" players who have no desire to do anything besides compete against PVE content, not hardcore elitist's. dont you guys realize you would still get the majority of targets? seriously, if trakanon spawns at 2am PST you can be pretty well assured you will still get the kill regardless of who's turn it is

[Rizher]

Non TMO are not seeing the point here. End game is VP, do you think TMO wants to deal with trains in VP over and over again? They don't kill Trak for loot. It's a cockblock, and I agree with a top guild doing that.


Sure share you access to the end zone, create more issues down the road... wtf we all gonna sing comb boy ya?

Chaching

[suptoofs]

the problem with this is that TMO will never have the "competition" it desires from the current guilds on the server. if there was another IB or TR on the server then yes i would probably agree with you guys. but as it stands TMO can claim 90% of the "hardcore" raiders as their own. all the casuals are asking for is a shot at few mobs without the constant fear of being trained, leapfrogged, fte sniped or rules lawyered out of the kill. at the end of the day this is a PVE server, the majority of the people that are joining are "casual" players who have no desire to do anything besides compete against PVE content, not hardcore elitist's. dont you guys realize you would still get the majority of targets? seriously, if trakanon spawns at 2am PST you can be pretty well assured you will still get the kill regardless of who's turn it is

TMO doesn't let the server even get to the point where it could compete with them. Bitch about freebies all you want jeremy but all honesty TMO is basically getting freebies on every kill rofl

[Knightt]

Guys Let em have it man if they honestly still get enjoyment out of killing mobs in 30 sec that is all that matters now if they are doing it just to despite everyone its another thing. either get your guild up there and compete or just drop it . i would love for everyone to get a piece of everything but honestly its not gonna happen. So lets sit around contest what we can and hope that TMO gets bored before velious and starts letting people have some spawns . no sense in stressing about this shit SO PLZ LET IT GO. love your what your trying to do BDA but honestly they must still enjoy zerging and poopsocking and what not so let it be because thats what it is all about sorry i didnt have time to spell check or fix it up for the trolls but late night group in efreeti keeps me down this morning

[toyodafenninro]

All of the references to waking up at 2am...4am...whatever the time may be, and the difficulties of raiding w/ a wife/kids/dog/ostrich/lizard are silly. If all of TMO raided from the same global time zone this point would have merit. We don't, though. We have members from many varied time zones and locations. We have players in Seattle, Boston, New York...we have players in Spain, and France. We have Canadians from both coasts, Brits and people who log in from Asia. Additionally, we have shift workers like Police, Fire, and Security who routinely work night shifts and for whom logging in at 4am is the equiv of a nice afternoon raid. Most of us have significant others, many are married and many have children. We actively prioritize recruiting based on our timezone needs as well. It really isn't that amazing of a feat for such a group of players to kill merbs at all hours of the day, especially when said kill involves logging in a parked character for 10-30 mins.

[Adrieth]

Guys Let em have it man if they honestly still get enjoyment out of killing mobs in 30 sec that is all that matters now if they are doing it just to despite everyone its another thing. either get your guild up there and compete or just drop it . i would love for everyone to get a piece of everything but honestly its not gonna happen. So lets sit around contest what we can and hope that TMO gets bored before velious and starts letting people have some spawns . no sense in stressing about this shit SO PLZ LET IT GO. love your what your trying to do BDA but honestly they must still enjoy zerging and poopsocking and what not so let it be because thats what it is all about sorry i didnt have time to spell check or fix it up for the trolls but late night group in efreeti keeps me down this morning

I have to believe this is not true. I have to believe TMO is burning people out (why are they absorbing other guilds?). I have to believe they actually want to promote competition, but also want to have fun and promote a good community to keep this game running.

The casuals will burn out/get bored before TMO does. I think that's safe to say. I believe doing something like this would be great for the P99 server.

[Llabak]

Wow, 8 pages and not to R&F yet. Kudos to the forum.

Honest questions: Is Jeremy TMO officer? Have any TMO officers replied? I'm not a BDA officer, so sending a tell to a TMO officer wouldn't be appropriate. Also, the point of this was to solicit the opinion not just of TMO's leadership (who might just say no out of hand) but to appeal to the rank and file of TMO as well. If enough of them agree that a change is in order, it's more likely the officers will be willing to negotiate.

Also, Knix and Nietche, wru? You guys quit BDA because you thought the atmosphere was bad. I'm trying to clean it up. Surely there are some members of TMO who would be willing to set up something to make the raid scene less toxic?

Also, FWIW, the proposed raid order I put up was just a suggestion, and in truth because of time zone issues, I'd expect TMO to still get 5/6 - both of theirs, both open, and probably one of BDA's. Shrug. Are TMO's members really happy with losing mobs to an FTE arms race? Isn't that why the Ragefire rotation went into place?

[Knightt]

i would love a rotation as much as the next casual guy but im not gonna stoop low and beg for it . ive done what they have done man when i was 13 and i enjoyed the hell out of it . white crosses and no doze for the 25 hrs raids and poop socks we was doing super hard core back in the day . now i cant do it me and my guild is honesly gonna be happen with a little hate , fear, sky and epic fights . BDA has the numbers to do what TMO is doing but not the skill or balls to pull the trigger quit accepting lvl 30s into your guild and focus on what you got like TMO has done you might be able to compete . and again like i said im all for rotation but not gonna stress over not getting it i just hope TMO comes to the sense that they need to do whats good for the server instead for the pixels and alt pixels cause i have countless TMO alts come to me askin to join my guild because they are so sick of what TMO is doing they are so Bored and drawn out and not enjoying the game no more they make alts and hide and join other guilds just to do casual raiding . pathetic imo but they are top dog man just bow down and face it

[Servellious]

TMO doesn't let the server even get to the point where it could compete with them. Bitch about freebies all you want jeremy but all honesty TMO is basically getting freebies on every kill rofl


They have EARNED it others have not. Lets all go to vp and train each other to earn something.

Or just enjoy Life and play eq less.

[toyodafenninro]

Your game consists of sitting there for hours hitting the track button and being willing to jump up from the dinner table to log on at a moments notice.

I suppose winning is winning, but I just don't see how you can be so proud of this.

It has nothing to do with pride. Read my above reply: It is not hard at all to kill mobs on p1999. It's not that we're proud of ourselves as much as it is that we're amused with people complaining about an apparent inability to step up and succeed.

Yes, EQ involves trackers. It did on live, and it does now. Having a dedicated team of 20 (in a guild of 60-70 people) or so trackers who can hand off tracking mobs in small time increments is not some special advantage, it is part of the raid scene in eq. We're a raid guild. We award trackers with DKP. Trackers are staying, now and through Velious.

Does this disadvantage small, casual guilds with 10-12 members? Sure does. This isn't WoW, and we don't have 12 man raids to cater to people who aren't willing or able to build a larger force. I've never had an issue with this, which contributes to my continued enjoyment of EQ. The people who hated this sort of game play on live either learned to live with it, apped to raiding guilds, or left for other games more friendly to casuals.

I don't feel the least bit bad that an emulated server has ended up the same way the live servers did. I do empathize with the casuals in that there's not another "casual server" they can reroll on, like there were on live - servers where the playerbase agreed on rotations and there was such a thing as a 3 month list for dragons to make sure even the smallest presence has a shot. I wish there was a second p1999 for those people, but there isn't.

[JenJen]

lulz

[Adrieth]

It has nothing to do with pride. Read my above reply: It is not hard at all to kill mobs on p1999. It's not that we're proud of ourselves as much as it is that we're amused with people complaining about an apparent inability to step up and succeed.

Yes, EQ involves trackers. It did on live, and it does now. Having a dedicated team of 20 (in a guild of 60-70 people) or so trackers who can hand off tracking mobs in small time increments is not some special advantage, it is part of the raid scene in eq. We're a raid guild. We award trackers with DKP. Trackers are staying, now and through Velious.

Does this disadvantage small, casual guilds with 10-12 members? Sure does. This isn't WoW, and we don't have 12 man raids to cater to people who aren't willing or able to build a larger force. I've never had an issue with this, which contributes to my continued enjoyment of EQ. The people who hated this sort of game play on live either learned to live with it, apped to raiding guilds, or left for other games more friendly to casuals.

I don't feel the least bit bad that an emulated server has ended up the same way the live servers did. I do empathize with the casuals in that there's not another "casual server" they can reroll on, like there were on live - servers where the playerbase agreed on rotations and there was such a thing as a 3 month list for dragons to make sure even the smallest presence has a shot. I wish there was a second p1999 for those people, but there isn't.

Surely we can work out all your concerns. My proposal earlier would still involve active tracking and races of skill/balls. We need to set a bar of entry, and need a test to see if guilds who want to be involved can meet that bar (maybe win 3 races or something to that effect).

Let's not throw it all away just because of skepticism or assumption.

[suptoofs]

End game is VP, do you think TMO wants to deal with trains in VP over and over again? They don't kill Trak for loot. It's a cockblock, and I agree with a top guild doing that.



This is the real reason, no matter how you look at it.

[quido]

You're right, it's a lot easier these days. And sometimes it's really nice to be on cruise control and not worry about it. But at the same time, the purest of us miss how it was a year ago.

I think it's really pathetic how little credit you people give everyone. Yes, we set the bar high, but our game is pretty loose these days really (depending on the day). It is so much easier NOW to make a move on the top dog. When we first started making a move on TR, do you know how many people in our force had dragon haste? Very very few! There was no Ixiblat, there was no Ragefire feeding CoFs to people day after day after day. Anyone with the right class makeup and some balls can goto sky with a couple groups and clear the entire zone. So to say that you're being held down from progressing is absurd. You can get 36+% haste, you can get sky haste, you can get a shitload of resist gear. People managed to kill shit before there were epics and VP, in case you didn't know. You don't need a fucking necro epic or a crown of rile to go kill Talendor.

If you're some up-and-coming guild and you want a shot at Sev or whatever, get there before us and show us that you're serious about trying. Do this and we'll probably cut you a break and give you an engage (I know I'm in favor of such a prospect) before trying to tag it ourselves. It's not fucking rocket science. You just need a plan and a little bit of willpower. Don't just bumble around and expect chance to converge upon your wishes. If you want something... TAKE IT! You don't have to commit your life to it. Do what you can with what you have, and if you remain persistant, I guarantee you that fortune will eventually smile upon you. You have to give yourself a fucking chance to succeed. You might be surprised what you're capable of.

BDA has the means. They have the right strategy (choosing battles). Where you lack is not beyond your control - it is a simple choice. You lack in mojo. Mojo is a zero sum resource, bros. The more you demonstrate, the less we have. Let's see some fucking mojo and see if momentum can carry you like it did us. I really thought this summer would (once again) be when we saw a real contender step up and challenge the #1. Oh well, maybe next year =P

[Galelor]

So what I've gathered from this thread is, from TMO members' point of view, if you have a full time job, kids, wife, family, ect., you will not really have a chance to experience the end game. Shouldn't everyone have a chance to experience it, no matter how casual/hardcore?

I can dedicate a fair share of time to EQ on certain days, but theres no way in hell i can log on in the middle of the day to kill a raid mob.

Don't take this question the wrong way, this isn't a sob story, just a legitimate question

Honestly, I stopped playing because of time constraints and because poopsocking is no longer my idea of fun. That said, Pre-PoP EQ was never a communal environment where everyone got a little bit. The strong took what they want, and this is how the game is set up to play out. Once instancing started, and guilds realized they didn't have to cockblock PoI, PoE, and PoW guilds got along a lot better.

I would like to add that nothing is going to change when Velious comes out. There are more mobs, but attitudes will not change. What happens when TMO splits factions... The fun will be over for all other guilds that want raid mobs. Good luck even getting VP mobs. Since open training is OK, I doubt anyone other than TMO is going to want to even try raiding there.

I hate to say it, but if you want a casual environment where everyone is sharing mobs, you need to find a server with instance raiding. P99 raid scene is shot for casual players.

[Tarathiel]

This is the real reason, no matter how you look at it.

so which is it then? do they or do they not want "competition?" if they truly did want it then they would be open to letting other guilds get a shot at trakanon, so far as it stands they are getting to enjoy a relatively competition free VP.

[Knightt]

so which is it then? do they or do they not want "competition?" if they truly did want it then they would be open to letting other guilds get a shot at trakanon, so far as it stands they are getting to enjoy a relatively competition free VP.

how is letting us get trak gonna give them comp ? its not

[Tarathiel]

If you're some up-and-coming guild and you want a shot at Sev or whatever, get there before us and show us that you're serious about trying. Do this and we'll probably cut you a break and give you an engage (I know I'm in favor of such a prospect) before trying to tag it ourselves.

i dont know if this is a sarcastic joke or if you are just straight up trying to spread mis-information but you guys consistently leap-frog the smaller guilds on even the smallest of targets such as draco and maestro.

[Lazortag]

so far im only seeing BDA and TMO posting in this thread, id like to hear more from the other guilds, how do you guys feel about the current raid scene? how do you feel about an open slot on a rotation?

I already posted here but I'll post again. I don't support rotations because they aren't competitive, however I think they're better than the current ruleset (which is also anti-competitive, but requires people to either invest unreasonable amounts of time in to the game, or join a zerg guild). I'm sure some middle ground is possible, like simultaneous repops, or something like that.

i cant speak for all of BDA but i know many of us probably wouldnt even mobilize if we thought one of the smaller guilds had a shot at a target they otherwise wouldnt have had

We both know this is clearly untrue, but I don't blame you for it, you guys have to get every mob you can.


If you're some up-and-coming guild and you want a shot at Sev or whatever, get there before us and show us that you're serious about trying. Do this and we'll probably cut you a break and give you an engage (I know I'm in favor of such a prospect) before trying to tag it ourselves.

This is also untrue. But again, there's nothing wrong with that.

[Tarathiel]

how is letting us get trak gonna give them comp ? its not

derp trakanon is the choke point on getting into vp derp

[Tarathiel]

We both know this is clearly untrue, but I don't blame you for it, you guys have to get every mob you can.

oh so when TMO was on raid suspension and you guys wiped to trakanon we didnt come in and joint raid with you guys instead of just taking it for ourselves? we didnt initiate the first ever server rotation on mobs outside of ragefire? if you know of an incident where BDA has leap frogged a smaller guild that was obviously going to engage a mob please let it be known

[quido]

I heard you trained Taken once or twice! Confirmed bad people.

[Lazortag]

oh so when TMO was on raid suspension and you guys wiped to trakanon we didnt come in and joint raid with you guys instead of just taking it for ourselves? we didnt initiate the first ever server rotation on mobs outside of ragefire? if you know of an incident where BDA has leap frogged a smaller guild that was obviously going to engage a mob please let it be known

The situations you mentioned are completely different, though I'm grateful. You said:

i know many of us probably wouldnt even mobilize if we thought one of the smaller guilds had a shot at a target they otherwise wouldnt have had

In situations where TMO wasn't suspended, yes you've mobilized on targets that we had a shot at. There's nothing wrong with that. Maybe you misunderstood me. You guys are great to work with and you offered us (and other small guilds) mobs you didn't have to, but the post I quoted wasn't entirely accurate.

[kbnexus]

We've been down the road of trying to contact your leadership -- a pointless exercise IMO (even for stupid little things like sharing Cazic Skins with each other). Berty was putting this in a public forum for a good discussion, which it seems we're actually having! Keep it up! ;)

Lol you burnt your cazic skin, and you offered to share one of yours(which you dont have, and even your guild leader says you cant compete with TMO on CT)
So basically you wanted free loots for nothing.

Typical BDA

[Adrieth]

Lol you burnt your cazic skin, and you offered to share one of yours(which you dont have, and even your guild leader says you cant compete with TMO on CT)
So basically you wanted free loots for nothing.

Typical BDA

Hi welcome back to flaming my posts :)

In all seriousness, and I've told several TMO wizards this: If/When we get reimbursed, we'll be offering TMO a chance to piggy back. I see no reason not to.

[kbnexus]

what never ends? please tell us more about how TMO owns every mob on the server and how us spoiled little casuals just want free shit, please TMO unless you have something constructive to add to the conversation lets not muck it up. if you guys have no interest in a rotation then back out of this thread and let us continue the conversation with people that do

So BDA can decide a rotation on the server, when the only guild on the server getting the kills cant have input?

Derp

[Tarathiel]

but the post I quoted wasn't entirely accurate.

i see what youre saying, and yes obviously we will mobilize and try to get all that we can with the current status of the raid scene. what i said was with the assumption that some sort of agreement can be reached. even if its not a full blown rotation but just an agreement to lay off the shady shit like fte sniping and leap frogging. even if it cant tho, it is not in BDA's interest to "own" every mob on the server. but when we are fighting for the scraps just like everyone else of course we will take what we can get.

So BDA can decide a rotation on the server, when the only guild on the server getting the kills cant have input?

Derp

we are not deciding anything, we are merely opening up a conversation for the rest of the server to take part in

[Ambrotos]

Let's keep the personal attacks out of it. Can discuss the pros and cons of this till your fingers fall off, just don't attack or troll.

[Xanthias]

my 2cp

BDA wants a rotation? Fine.
Compete on ALL raid mobs, not just the two you have chosen.

Show you care about raiding, rotations are a reward for going after mobs repeatedly.
Yes that means you have to go after Gore, Tal, Sev, Noble, Fay, VS, Trak and WIN consistently.

All BDA seems to be doing right now is going after the top two, if you want to be taken seriously, ya need to do the hard work of going after the not so desirable targets as well.

[Tarathiel]

Let's keep the personal attacks out of it. Can discuss the pros and cons of this till your fingers fall off, just don't attack or troll.

<3

[kbnexus]

so which is it then? do they or do they not want "competition?" if they truly did want it then they would be open to letting other guilds get a shot at trakanon, so far as it stands they are getting to enjoy a relatively competition free VP.

Giving someone raid mobs isnt competition. You will just become dependent on our charity, we tried that many times in the past. Everytime it failed. If you want to compete then compete. TMO can not give you drive.

[kbnexus]

i dont know if this is a sarcastic joke or if you are just straight up trying to spread mis-information but you guys consistently leap-frog the smaller guilds on even the smallest of targets such as draco and maestro.

Draco has a BIS item which we NEVER get to drop.
Surprised you didn't know that.
Also, there was a draco kill in recent history we didnt bother going for cause div was headed there.
Maestro has the cockblock piece for warrior epics... how are those small target? Tal and Sev are fairly small targets. VS is not Trak is not. We are still awarding BP's and teeth.

[Haul]

More rules = more bull shit, just free for all everything people need to stop being pussys. What happens, happens. Real talk and I don't even raid anymore-

[quido]

Hey just because we're not handing Sev engages to BDA and Divinity (guilds that have killed him) doesn't mean we wouldn't for someone like Full Circle or whoever. Recently at a draco we saw Full Circle was in a clear PoF and instead of sending our bards to go tag the thing, we gave them 5 or 10 minutes to get an attempt. I'm not promising anyone anything, but if you're some guild that hasn't killed one of these lower priority targets before, I think most people would be behind giving you an attempt. When you demonstrate that you can kill it, though, is when we cease with the leeway. I think that's fair enough.

[Knightt]

Hey just because we're not handing Sev engages to BDA and Divinity (guilds that have killed him) doesn't mean we wouldn't for someone like Full Circle or whoever. Recently at a draco we saw Full Circle was in a clear PoF and instead of sending our bards to go tag the thing, we gave them 5 or 10 minutes to get an attempt. I'm not promising anyone anything, but if you're some guild that hasn't killed one of these lower priority targets before, I think most people would be behind giving you an attempt. When you demonstrate that you can kill it, though, is when we cease with the leeway. I think that's fair enough.


i dont see anything wrong with this at all hopefully we get that 5 or 10 min window from you guys one day

[canker]

So what I've gathered from this thread is, from TMO members' point of view, if you have a full time job, kids, wife, family, ect., you will not really have a chance to experience the end game. Shouldn't everyone have a chance to experience it, no matter how casual/hardcore?

I can dedicate a fair share of time to EQ on certain days, but theres no way in hell i can log on in the middle of the day to kill a raid mob.

Don't take this question the wrong way, this isn't a sob story, just a legitimate question

I hate this argument. most TMO members have full time jobs or significant others/families to care about, just like everyone else. we do have some members that have slightly less responsibilities than the rest, but it's a large minority compared to the guild as a whole.

where we are different from most casual players/non-raiders is that we're able to balance our time in real life and in everquest to create a healthy compromise between the two. it's not a particularly easy thing to do, and some people just can't figure it out even with time. but to say that just because you or others have real life responsibilities that prevent people from experiencing end game content is just a weak and flimsy excuse. everyone does. it's about achieving balance between the things in your life.

as others have said, we also have players from all over the world. our majority are north american or european time based players, but we have players with different schedules and playtimes to ensure our guilds presence at all times of the day.

[Sirken]

rotations are stupid.

i will not support, suggest, or enforce rotations.

[Llabak]

Awesome feedback! thanks Sirken!

[Tarathiel]

rotations are stupid.

i will not support, suggest, or enforce rotations.

and having 100 people sit on a spawn point to have FTE decided randomly, or even worse a group of 5-7 people sniping FTE from a legitimate raid force is better? not flaming or questioning any previous rulings, i just think there has to be a better way to do things, what the op and others have suggested would require very little GM involvement if the players were respectful to one another. of course there would still be instances of douchebaggery but i think they would dramatically decrease. and fwiw a rotation does not have to be suggested, supported, or enforced by gms, they werent on Live and yet many servers had them.

[Knightt]

dont think anyone had this problem on live so you cant say that

[toyodafenninro]

...and fwiw a rotation does not have to be suggested, supported, or enforced by gms, they werent on Live and yet many servers had them.

Many servers did have them. Like mentioned before, on some of those servers a guild or group would need to post on a forum and be placed into a line, sometimes weeks or months behind others, to get a shot at a raid target. You might think this won't happen on p1999, but it's important to realize the system contributed to the wait time in that as soon as people realized they'd get a guaranteed shot at a mob, they would form many tiny guilds/friends groups instead of band together to form larger guilds. I don't think anyone wants to see p1999 go that direction.

Secondly, everyone on those Live Rotation servers will remember that it only takes 1 raid guild to ignore the rotation for the entire system to crash and burn. It is a 100% compliance or nothing system. Our GM's have stated they will not endorse or enforce rotations. TMO has no interest in a rotation, and I promise you if TMO didn't exist, there would be at least one guild/force/group on the server who would also prefer to fight for spawns rather than stand in the breadline.

As Jeremy said, we've given lots of shots to those who show some moxie.

[Sirken]

and fwiw a rotation does not have to be suggested, supported, or enforced by gms, they werent on Live and yet many servers had them.

thats 100% correct. players are more than welcome to set up any kind of arrangements that they want. and as long as both(all) guilds respect it, it will work fine.


but as i said, i will not suggest, support, or enforce it from my end.

[kbnexus]

i suggest velious, i would also support it ! could you enforce it?

[Ravager]

I hate this argument. most TMO members have full time jobs or significant others/families to care about, just like everyone else. we do have some members that have slightly less responsibilities than the rest, but it's a large minority compared to the guild as a whole.

where we are different from most casual players/non-raiders is that we're able to balance our time in real life and in everquest to create a healthy compromise between the two. it's not a particularly easy thing to do, and some people just can't figure it out even with time. but to say that just because you or others have real life responsibilities that prevent people from experiencing end game content is just a weak and flimsy excuse. everyone does. it's about achieving balance between the things in your life.

as others have said, we also have players from all over the world. our majority are north american or european time based players, but we have players with different schedules and playtimes to ensure our guilds presence at all times of the day.

Kind of sounds like TMO is more casual than casual guilds. This is the problem of the raid scene right here. TMO has players in all time zones able to log on at a moment's notice with the numbers to kill a mob. With those numbers over those time zones, you can also pass around the tracking responsibilities in a way that folks aren't tracking for hours at a time through the night. With those numbers, you've been able to acquire the wealth you need to buy toons (something else I think this server should not allow) to park at raid mobs negating any need to mobilize.

Now, the server is in a situation where if you want pixels you 1.) Join TMO where you don't have to fight TMO to get them, or 2.) Join another guild and work 10x harder than anyone in TMO does to try and beat the zerg that can log on with the numbers at any time of day. At any rate, this isn't good for the server on both sides. On TMO's end, once you have your pixels and Velious isn't out yet, what do you do? You get bored and leave, unless you like farming plat and gearing 10 alts. On every other guild's end, you get burned out and frustrated trying to fight the Borg for pixels. Any kind of rotation, even a 1 to 7 rotation where folks could show up without worrying about wasting umpteen hours of their time would keep folks from quitting the server entirely.

And sans rotation, some limits on guild size would level the playing field considerably.

[Savok]

As Jeremy said, we've given lots of shots to those who show some moxie.

Does having a monk stand up and get FTE without a raid count as giving people shots? Guilds have proven that they can kill said mob (not just BDA but others too) with the right force in place.

I have no issue racing a guild for a mob and backing out when you know you have been beaten but to do crappy things like the above will just turn people away from raiding, period. You will just end up with all of the mobs to farm yourselves because nobody else will want to bother.

Like someone said above it just becomes a cockblock rather than playing for fun.

[Teppler]

BDA shouldn't be kicking their higher level active members who want to raid then start complaining about their raiding situation.

[toyodafenninro]

Does having a monk stand up and get FTE without a raid count as giving people shots? Guilds have proven that they can kill said mob (not just BDA but others too) with the right force in place.

I have no issue racing a guild for a mob and backing out when you know you have been beaten but to do crappy things like the above will just turn people away from raiding, period. You will just end up with all of the mobs to farm yourselves because nobody else will want to bother.

Like someone said above it just becomes a cockblock rather than playing for fun.

I'm not addressing any particular incident of FTE arguing that's happened between BDA and TMO. Those will continue to happen as long as FTE is the metric used. Your first question does not require an answer - it's obvious. Having said this - the ability to kill a mob with the right force in place doesn't entitle someone to a mob, either. As has been beaten to death, GM's understand FTE is a flawed metric but it is the closest thing to a data based decision that can be used at the current time. The staff isn't stupid.
<p>
As far as "doing crappy things," (?) - I chalk FTE arguments/other crappy stuff and a bit of lawyering to be par for the course when it comes to raid guild relations. It doesn't bother me. What Jeremy and I were referring to was clearly stated: up and coming guilds who want to test their mettle against targets for the first time. This was the case in his example of Full Circle in PoF, and I have seen numerous similar occasions. When it's obvious that, as you said, the guild can take the target with a reasonable expectation of success, the gloves are off. We will compete and may the best guild win.

[toyodafenninro]

And sans rotation, some limits on guild size would level the playing field considerably.

Not only would a move like this be unprecedented, it would be unenforceable. Groups of people who want to play together will do so, regardless of how guilds are required to be divided. There would be no way for GM's to realistically enforce something like this when players would simply split larger guilds into two smaller forces on paper, and work together to kill mobs. Senario: "TMO Adam Squad assisted TMO Boy Squad on Trakanon this morning." Both squads had 30 people.

[Lazortag]

I hate this argument. most TMO members have full time jobs or significant others/families to care about, just like everyone else. we do have some members that have slightly less responsibilities than the rest, but it's a large minority compared to the guild as a whole.

where we are different from most casual players/non-raiders is that we're able to balance our time in real life and in everquest to create a healthy compromise between the two. it's not a particularly easy thing to do, and some people just can't figure it out even with time. but to say that just because you or others have real life responsibilities that prevent people from experiencing end game content is just a weak and flimsy excuse. everyone does. it's about achieving balance between the things in your life.

as others have said, we also have players from all over the world. our majority are north american or european time based players, but we have players with different schedules and playtimes to ensure our guilds presence at all times of the day.

I don't know everyone in TMO, and I have no reason to suggest that most of them don't have lives outside of the game. But like another poster said, it's the fact that TMO (and BDA) are so large that allows them to not spend that much time on the game. It's the fact that raiding on this server (unlike on Live) demands so much time that necessitates TMO and BDA having such large raid forces. Most of the smaller guilds are lucky to get 20-25 people a night, how can they regularly compete against a raid force that's three times their size? If you have three times as many people, you will probably mobilize three times as fast. By the time we have a group up in hate for Inny, you guys have an entire raid force.

Now that isn't TMO or BDA's fault. I'm not suggesting you guys split up or cut down on your numbers, or bring less people to raids. But I'm just giving you some perspective as to why casual guilds can't compete at the same level - if we did, we would have to spend all our time tracking and neglect our RL responsibilities, because we don't have enough people to pass tracking responsibilities around to. This has probably been the #1 reason why the raid scene has always been dominated by 1 or 2 guilds on p99, while on Live content was spread more evenly.

Add to that the fact that casual guilds tend to have stricter recruiting requirements. Add to that the fact that mobs often spawn at ridiculous times like 3 or 4 AM eastern, when almost no one is awake. I've tracked mobs for days only to have it spawn early in the morning - a small guild can't have an enormous european contingent that logs in immediately once a mob spawns. So people get discouraged, they stop tracking, they miss a few TOD's, and you get what we have now: a raid scene where for the most part, only 2 guilds bother to compete over raid mobs.

The solution isn't for everyone to rotate mobs, or for everyone to play nicer, or for TMO to give us handouts, it's for the system to be changed so that I don't have to spend up to 96 hours straight pressing "track" just for a chance at pixels. I know very few people who would waste that much time for a guarantee at pixels, how many do you think will do it for a ~33% chance at it?

2 and a half months ago Nilbog said he had a proposal to fix all this. What happened to that?: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=666636&postcount=72

[quido]

I want to go trick-or-treating at the age of 18 without so much as donning a costume.

[Knightt]

I want to go trick-or-treating at the age of 18 without so much as donning a costume.

hey i done this LMAO rolled a phat one wanted some candy and grabbed a pillowcase

[Tarathiel]

The solution isn't for everyone to rotate mobs, or for everyone to play nicer, or for TMO to give us handouts, it's for the system to be changed so that I don't have to spend up to 96 hours straight pressing "track" just for a chance at pixels. I know very few people who would waste that much time for a guarantee at pixels, how many do you think will do it for a ~33% chance at it?

2 and a half months ago Nilbog said he had a proposal to fix all this. What happened to that?: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=666636&postcount=72

this is pretty spot on, more available targets over-all would go a long way to appease the masses

[Tarathiel]

I want to go trick-or-treating at the age of 18 without so much as donning a costume.

stop trolling this thread, damn

[quido]

Hey, just because I make my point in a clever and disparaging manner doesn't mean it's necessarily a troll!

[Itap]

I hate this argument. most TMO members have full time jobs or significant others/families to care about, just like everyone else. we do have some members that have slightly less responsibilities than the rest, but it's a large minority compared to the guild as a whole.

where we are different from most casual players/non-raiders is that we're able to balance our time in real life and in everquest to create a healthy compromise between the two. it's not a particularly easy thing to do, and some people just can't figure it out even with time. but to say that just because you or others have real life responsibilities that prevent people from experiencing end game content is just a weak and flimsy excuse. everyone does. it's about achieving balance between the things in your life.

as others have said, we also have players from all over the world. our majority are north american or european time based players, but we have players with different schedules and playtimes to ensure our guilds presence at all times of the day.

This post wasn't insinuating that TMO members "have no lives", it was more of a "how is it done". I'm well aware of balancing EQ and RL, I just wanted insight on how 1 guild controls an entire raid scene. Thanks for the info

[quido]

This post wasn't insinuating that TMO members "have no lives"

BDA has their sanctimonious recruitment thread for that.


Is Bregan D’Aerth For You?
Do you have a job?
Do you have a family?
Do you have a social life?
Did you answer yes to any or all of these questions? Congratulations, Bregan D’Aerth could be the guild for you!


Grats on your lives, guys

[Tarathiel]

Hey, just because I make my point in a clever and disparaging manner doesn't mean it's necessarily a troll!


I want to sit in front of the same house for 96 hour's in costume with the hopes that another trick or treater doesnt jump out of the bushes ring the door bell first and get awarded all the candy

[quido]

That's a little thin!

[Knightt]

stop trolling this thread, damn

[quido]

I think it's kind of funny people put such a thread in Server Chat. The "you suck" in this is part of the argument from our side, part of our legitimate stance. You can't really blame us for sort of saying it in response to the proposition. I think the fact that I/we are avoiding being outright inflammatory is about all you can ask for on a touchy subject such as this.

[Acillatem]

Speaking strictly from the point of view of someone who has handled Rotation discussions in the past:

In order for a rotation to be warranted, 3 things need to happen:

* The rotation is fair for all parties involved.
* "Not having to poopsock" outweighs, or at least evens out the "loss of mobs" for the Guild(s) in primary control. In this case, Trak/VS, but also the ability to mobilize on OTHER mobs while camped out/socking.
* Does not eliminate "the thrill of the chase".

Look at past rotations that worked on P99 (Ragefire, VP, Trak). They met all 3 conditions and that is why they were successful. Enter BDA. Inconsistent competition outside of VS/Trak, and as far as competition on VS/Trak, unless I miscounted our DKP logs, you're shooting at roughly 20%.

*What you ask for is NOT fair to TMO at this point.

*A 1:4 win ratio on Trak/VS is not enough to put TMO in a position where a rotation is a better solution to camping at ledge or socking

*What you ask for eliminates too much of the chase (if limiting to Trak/VS then I would consider that acceptable - however I'm not in a position to make that decision)

*And tbh, BDA isn't to the point where TMO having a raid force camped out is detrimental to our performance on other mobs

Fix those 4 things, and then you at least put yourself in a position to suggest a rotation without so much backlash.

Velious is the big stink right now. On Live, if you were in a semi-casual guild - you knew that you had to wait your turn for content. You knew this going in and it wasn't a big deal. Kunark dropped and you got a little taste of Vanilla. Velious dropped and you got a taste of Kunark etc. It was never a huge issue becuz by the time a new expansion dropped, casuals were barely reaching max level etc of the previous expansion anyways so rarely was there this much "head butting" going on.

With this server maxing at Level 60, and Velious waaaaaaay behind schedule, and with us knowing ZEMs, and where to level, and PLs and twinkage etc....even casuals can be sitting at 60 (with an alt lol) and getting frustrated with the simple lack of something to do.

Compound that with the fact TMO still needs mobs like Draco and Maestro. We've had ONE BCG drop in the past TWO MONTHS - So it's not just for alts and shit like everyone "assumes".....these mobs still have items (in some cases BIS items) needed by MANY mains (not just a few people here and there).

[godbox]

^ best tag ever. i really hope you made that from scratch with ms paint or somethin =)

[Sprokets]

They only got 5, and not in a row.

Little details =P
Point is in February VD had taken most or alot of the trak kills and TMO still wouldn't consider a rotation. 6 VS kills ain't gonna break those cats.

[kbnexus]

stop trolling this thread, damn

Every BDA post in here is a rant and/or flame.

[Ravager]

Not only would a move like this be unprecedented, it would be unenforceable. Groups of people who want to play together will do so, regardless of how guilds are required to be divided. There would be no way for GM's to realistically enforce something like this when players would simply split larger guilds into two smaller forces on paper, and work together to kill mobs. Senario: "TMO Adam Squad assisted TMO Boy Squad on Trakanon this morning." Both squads had 30 people.

I am pretty certain if you split one large force into two smaller forces they'd compete. Especially if TMO claims to want the competition they do, it seems like just the medicine.

[Tarathiel]

Every BDA post in here is a rant and/or flame.

i actually think this has been a rather constructive and drama free thread, and im actually surprised that it didnt devolve into a straight up shit storm and end up in rnf like most threads of this nature. so lets review:

Rotation Pro's:
less time spent tracking for everyone
eliminates poop socking
promotes fair play
less gm involvement in raid scene
smaller guilds may be more inclined to participate in chasing big targets

Rotation Cons:
eliminates what many perceive to be competition
less kills over all for the top guild
can be an utter failure if one guild decides to break the rotation
unsupported by server staff
is probably a pain in the ass to manage(who would call the shots on who gets in the rotation?)

thats all ive got so far, but i think one thing we can all agree on is that something needs to be done with the current FTE ruleset(either by instituting shouts or just saying to hell with it all and going FFA). Also i think its time to take a look at raid mob spawn variance and possible simultaneous repops(where u at nilbog?? dont leave us hangin!)

EDIT: post 420... /grin

[Ravager]

i actually think this has been a rather constructive and drama free thread, and im actually surprised that it didnt devolve into a straight up shit storm and end up in rnf like most threads of this nature. so lets review:

Rotation Pro's:
less time spent tracking for everyone
eliminates poop socking
promotes fair play
less gm involvement in raid scene
smaller guilds may be more inclined to participate in chasing big targets

Rotation Cons:
eliminates what many perceive to be competition
less kills over all for the top guild
can be an utter failure if one guild decides to break the rotation
unsupported by server staff

thats all ive got so far, but i think one thing we can all agree on is that something needs to be done with the current FTE ruleset(either by instituting shouts or just saying to hell with it all and going FFA). Also i think its time to take a look at raid mob spawn variance and possible simultaneous repops(where u at nilbog?? dont leave us hangin!)

The big con is right here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_goods_game

Without GM's enforcing rotations, everyone who wants to raid would lose. It's just a matter of convincing the staff that rotations are in the best interest of the server.

[quido]

Let's go play some Counterstrike. We have a kill rotation set up on my server so we can all get a turn enjoying the game. Unlike how it would be here, the headshot rotation IS enforced on my server. Come play.

[Daliant17447]

It's just a matter of convincing the staff that rotations are in the best interest of the server.

rotations are stupid.

i will not support, suggest, or enforce rotations.

good luck with that

[Ravager]

Let's go play some Counterstrike. We have a kill rotation set up on my server so we can all get a turn enjoying the game. Unlike how it would be here, the headshot rotation IS enforced on my server. Come play.

I still think you should change your avatar since you lost your surname.

[Knightt]

I still think you should change your avatar since you lost your surname.

did he really?

[Ravager]

did he really?

You don't speak for Jeremy.

[kbnexus]

Little details =P
Point is in February VD had taken most or alot of the trak kills and TMO still wouldn't consider a rotation. 6 VS kills ain't gonna break those cats.

This would be better if your "point" was also fact.

[quido]

I still have my surname - look at my sig. That's how I appear in game.

[Ravager]

I have images off, so maybe I'm missing out :(

[quido]

My sig is text only, except for a smiley. It actually used to have four smileys in it, but they don't allow that anymore =(

[Ravager]

For some reason I'm not seeing it, maybe I turned off sigs too.

[Vandy]

Another big problem here is that accounts are free there is no subscription so the buying/selling of accounts is widespread. People buy up massive numbers of accounts and then you can have a toon parked at every raid mob you want and ready to go while you play your others. Not having to pay $10/month per account. I would assume that a majority of people who are casual don't have 5+ level 55+ accounts that they can just park everywhere and be ready to go when a raid mob spawns.

[Pringles]

Another big problem here is that accounts are free there is no subscription so the buying/selling of accounts is widespread. People buy up massive numbers of accounts and then you can have a toon parked at every raid mob you want and ready to go while you play your others. Not having to pay $10/month per account. I would assume that a majority of people who are casual don't have 5+ level 55+ accounts that they can just park everywhere and be ready to go when a raid mob spawns.

I suspect that certain guilds collectively own many of these characters to park at said spawns to login at a moments notice. Its easy to pay for a well geared character with just one mob drop. This way you need only a handful of mains to be there to loot up what they have been waiting for, while the rest of the "expendable" accounts login to help with the kill... and since anyone can log them in at any time..... easy work, and poopsocking is null and void.

[Tarathiel]

I suspect that certain guilds collectively own many of these characters to park at said spawns to login at a moments notice. Its easy to pay for a well geared character with just one mob drop. This way you need only a handful of mains to be there to loot up what they have been waiting for, while the rest of the "expendable" accounts login to help with the kill... and since anyone can log them in at any time..... easy work, and poopsocking is null and void.

your suspicions are pretty accurate

[quido]

I sure wish I'd had a bunch of plat during The Great Exoduses =P

[Camulet]

I havent had much experience with raiding on P99 - but I played on Veeshan in Circle of Eternity (arguable 2nd best guild on the server) and I remember FoH setting up a rotation on mobs and being fairly reasonable. Never experienced this kind of behaviour and from an outside perspective some of these posts sound pretty immature.

OP seems to be a reasonable solution to a problem. Yes maybe not a TMO problem but I for one want to raid when I get to the appropriate level and if I cant do my epic or get items I want because one guild has it all on lock down - ill probably call it quits which I presume happens to alot of people if they cant achieve their goals.

So for server health a more mature attitude would be beneficial.

FYI I have grouped with TMO and BDA people and found them all to be nice so I presume the immature attitudes are a select few and limited to the raid scene.

Zar /wink

[Xanthias]

Speaking strictly from the point of view of someone who has handled Rotation discussions in the past:

In order for a rotation to be warranted, 3 things need to happen:

* The rotation is fair for all parties involved.
* "Not having to poopsock" outweighs, or at least evens out the "loss of mobs" for the Guild(s) in primary control. In this case, Trak/VS, but also the ability to mobilize on OTHER mobs while camped out/socking.
* Does not eliminate "the thrill of the chase".

Look at past rotations that worked on P99 (Ragefire, VP, Trak). They met all 3 conditions and that is why they were successful. Enter BDA. Inconsistent competition outside of VS/Trak, and as far as competition on VS/Trak, unless I miscounted our DKP logs, you're shooting at roughly 20%.

*What you ask for is NOT fair to TMO at this point.

*A 1:4 win ratio on Trak/VS is not enough to put TMO in a position where a rotation is a better solution to camping at ledge or socking

*What you ask for eliminates too much of the chase (if limiting to Trak/VS then I would consider that acceptable - however I'm not in a position to make that decision)

*And tbh, BDA isn't to the point where TMO having a raid force camped out is detrimental to our performance on other mobs

Fix those 4 things, and then you at least put yourself in a position to suggest a rotation without so much backlash.

Velious is the big stink right now. On Live, if you were in a semi-casual guild - you knew that you had to wait your turn for content. You knew this going in and it wasn't a big deal. Kunark dropped and you got a little taste of Vanilla. Velious dropped and you got a taste of Kunark etc. It was never a huge issue becuz by the time a new expansion dropped, casuals were barely reaching max level etc of the previous expansion anyways so rarely was there this much "head butting" going on.

With this server maxing at Level 60, and Velious waaaaaaay behind schedule, and with us knowing ZEMs, and where to level, and PLs and twinkage etc....even casuals can be sitting at 60 (with an alt lol) and getting frustrated with the simple lack of something to do.

Compound that with the fact TMO still needs mobs like Draco and Maestro. We've had ONE BCG drop in the past TWO MONTHS - So it's not just for alts and shit like everyone "assumes".....these mobs still have items (in some cases BIS items) needed by MANY mains (not just a few people here and there).

[Harazzer]

There is no solution.

BDA has neither the interest or ability to compete for raid mobs. That is a simple fact. While BDA may be numerically similar to TMO at a given time, the difference is only a fraction of the guild are raiders, a much smaller percentage are 60. Moreover due to the rolling spawn window situation, TMO has the capacity to camp out entire raid forces at multiple mobs near the end of window and play alts or whatever. I'm not complaining about these things... its ofcourse the best way to guarantee winning them. But calling it "competition" is a laughable misnomer. Its like saying "BDA you get this stick, now go fight TMO's sherman tank." Oh look the competition is over and TMO won. BDA gets mobs if its in window during prime time and we sock them for a few hours and get lucky. The other 99.7% of the time TMO gets them.

That being said, the truly surprising comments on this thread are from the GMs, who essentially have said we don't give a fuck about how this situation impacts the server. Rotations will never work in reality, it requires too much give on TMO's end and there is simply no reason for them to give away loot when they are a guild founded on loot acquisition. I don't expect TMO to act in any way other than their own self interest, even if it is detrimental to the server because this is human nature. But the staff should be somewhat more far-seeing than this and attempt some sort of a compromised solution.

Essentially as long as Sirken has decreed that this archaic and retarded concept of the first person on the aggro list has loot rights the raid scene will continue to be a shitstormy mess.

[Eccezan]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the P99 end raid scene.

http://gifs.gifbin.com/122010/1292331191_dwight-as-everybody.gif

[Arkanjil]

The P99 raid scene is pretty much how it went on Fennin Ro, where TMO was founded. This is nothing new for us.

[Anesthia]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the P99 end raid scene.

Except for the part where people take 13-year old pixels seriously.

[falkun]

they [TMO] are a guild founded on loot acquisition.

No, TMO is a guild founded on server domination. They have acquired the pixels and endless stream of characters that elevates the entry requirements into the raid scene arena. They're like the Yankees, except their salary cap is even higher than that of the Yankee's and their competition is all sitting around the $100mil mark.

Honestly, they've busted their collective asses and now they are sitting high atop the mountain with their laurels. They expect, arguably rightfully so, for any competition to usurp them as they usurped their predecessors. However, the fortress they've built is larger than the fortress they defeated, which is an honest defense technique, but makes their claims for competition hollow.

My only gripe is with the "new guard" of TMO, who didn't put in the collective work that the old guard did and yet still feels the right to look down upon the rest of the server. Both parties know who they are.

[Tecmos Deception]

No, TMO is a guild founded on server domination.

Would TMO continue raiding if there were no pixels?

[Maze513]

My only gripe is with the "new guard" of TMO, who didn't put in the collective work that the old guard did and yet still feels the right to look down upon the rest of the server. Both parties know who they are.
This man sees the forest threw the trees

[falkun]

Would TMO continue raiding if there were no pixels?

I'm not a member, but in my experience raiding against them, they'd do it just for the lolz of denying the kill to others. They want the competition, it keeps them sharp and focused. Gives them the "thrill of the hunt." But they never said anything about "fair" or "even" competition.

[Tecmos Deception]

I'm not a member, but in my experience raiding against them, they'd do it just for the lolz of denying the kill to others. They want the competition, it keeps them sharp and focused. Gives them the "thrill of the hunt." But they never said anything about "fair" or "even" competition.

So you think TMO would continue to raid even if they had BIS gear for every main and alt, or alternatively that they'd continue to raid even if mobs dropped no loot at all?

I guess you're entitled to believe that the guild just exists just to spite other people who want epic loot while not having to work as hard for it as the TMO members are willing to, but I find it pretty unlikely that they would raid "just for the lolz."

[falkun]

Outside of resist gear, Guts for epic, and SS legs, I have very little to look forward to in the raiding game. I still make every raid target I can and enjoy pulling Kunark dragons, kiting/training Fear for Draco/CT, etc. I'll stop attempting to speak on TMO's behalf lest I misrepresent them as a non member, but even if I were fully geared, I'd still raid, probably as the bard (and not gear up more than 1 alt) because bards are super important to the raid scene and they have tons of skills to master (not in-game abilities, but the ability to play the class well).

How is that so difficult to comprehend? Raiding is fun, fair competition is fun. But when you know you are beat, but you still lawyer for the win, that's where I run into issues.

[Tecmos Deception]

How is that so difficult to comprehend? Raiding is fun, fair competition is fun. But when you know you are beat, but you still lawyer for the win, that's where I run into issues.

Oh, no no no. Don't get all "How is this so hard for you to understand?" with me.

YOU are the one who said that TMO would raid JUST because they want to block everyone else from raiding. I questioned that a couple of times because it sounded like little more than a vengeful comment from someone who's on the losing end of things.

And now you are switching tunes to "I raid cause it's fun in and of itself" and acting like I'm dense for not understanding that raiding sans pixels/spite can be fun, when that is actually just redirecting the conversation to something else after you decided you don't want to claim to know what is on TMO's collective minds anymore.

PLUS you're throwing more vengeful comments at TMO even though there is no place in this immediate discussion for accusations of rule lawyering.


Just admit that you're blinded by your hatred for TMO and that they aren't actually out to get you (well except that they might actually be out to get YOU), but that they raid for the same reasons everyone else does: raiding, winning at raiding, and getting loot from raiding. They just seem to be more interested in those 3 things than anyone else on the server, so they end up with the vast majority of the raiding, wins, and loot.

[Toodles]

Why is this so difficult?

Have each top (or contending /capable) guilds message Nilbog or Sirken the days and times during the week they'd like to raid - with a maximum allowance set by the server GMs at their discretion.

Then when they are in the zone, the boss is spawned and the GMs hang around(or come back) when it's over to make sure there's no loot bugs, zone crashes etc.

Additionally you're allowed as many wipes or attempts as you want, providing no other guild has reserved a slot anytime soon after yours(all registrations to be minimum three or five hours apart etc)

Everyone gets a shot, everyone gets some loot if successful and no more camping, training, interfering etc.


Otherwise, quit fighting over something completely unimportant. And guild leaders, quite guilt tripping your players into going to 'help the guild' by farming for items to 'help raid' and then end up sitting around for hours doing nothing just so you can settle a score with another guild.

People are more important than your ego. /realitycheck

[Toehammer]

itt:
1) A BDA member proposes a rotation. BDA wants a more friendly server, but they really can't "compete". By compete I mean recruit players from across the world to curbstomp 13 year old AI and track 24/7.
2) TMO does not want a rotation; this will never change. When they are losing they just get mad, and then get even... usually by rules lawyering, sometimes legit though! They love to "win". By win I mean kill the same stuff over and over to gear up whomever is cycling through their guild.
3) X pages of TMO trolling (thanks quido!) trying to get it moved to RnF.
4) BDA and other people trying to salvage something constructive from something broken. (This is the overall metaphor for the entire raid scene, not just this thread)

It is good to see that the server is as healthy as always. I love Blue99, but don't forget, you can play both Blue and Red at the same time... and none of this drama exists on Red.

Doesn't the cycle ever get tiring? From both sides?

[quido]

You're welcome, dumbass.

[falkun]

Oh, no no no. Don't get all "How is this so hard for you to understand?" with me.

YOU are the one who said that TMO would raid JUST because they want to block everyone else from raiding. I questioned that a couple of times because it sounded like little more than a vengeful comment from someone who's on the losing end of things.
I know you want to focus on "just", but let me highlight the true emphasis of the relevant post:
I'm not a member, but in my experience raiding against them, they'd do it just for the lolz of denying the kill to others. They want the competition, it keeps them sharp and focused. Gives them the "thrill of the hunt." But they never said anything about "fair" or "even" competition.
And now you are switching tunes to "I raid cause it's fun in and of itself" and acting like I'm dense for not understanding that raiding sans pixels/spite can be fun, when that is actually just redirecting the conversation to something else after you decided you don't want to claim to know what is on TMO's collective minds anymore.
I apparently need to remind you that Everquest is a game. I would hope anyone playing it, TMO, myself, yourself, and R. A. Salvatore, are all playing it for fun, "sans pixels and spite." If the only reason I logged on was to train TMO, I'd walk away from the game. I also don't know whats on TMO's collective minds, I prefaced every post stating I was not a member. But, in my experience raiding against them, and believing some of the things their members post (even Alarti for whatever that's worth), I believe they don't raid for pixels. As one of their members stated, the pixels are a byproduct of their efforts.
PLUS you're throwing more vengeful comments at TMO even though there is no place in this immediate discussion for accusations of rule lawyering.
Yup, I've added extra remarks that are vitriolic in nature and do not forward the OP. Pot > kettle > black.

By the way, when I hit "quote" for your latest post, you had apparently edited this out but it was recovered by the server for me to read:
Just admit that you're blinded by your hatred for TMO and that they aren't actually out to get you (well except that they might actually be out to get YOU), but that they raid for the same reasons everyone else does: raiding, winning at raiding, and getting loot from raiding. They just seem to be more interested in those 3 things than anyone else on the server, so they end up with the vast majority of the raiding, wins, and loot.
I honestly don't care if you believe me one way or the other, but there are many people who still play on this server, and quite a few that have left, that have a more seething fury against TMO than I. If I had a blind hatred for TMO, do you think I'd post this:
No, TMO is a guild founded on server domination. They have acquired the pixels and endless stream of characters that elevates the entry requirements into the raid scene arena. They're like the Yankees, except their salary cap is even higher than that of the Yankee's and their competition is all sitting around the $100mil mark.

Honestly, they've busted their collective asses and now they are sitting high atop the mountain with their laurels. They expect, arguably rightfully so, for any competition to usurp them as they usurped their predecessors. However, the fortress they've built is larger than the fortress they defeated, which is an honest defense technique, but makes their claims for competition hollow.

My only gripe is with the "new guard" of TMO, who didn't put in the collective work that the old guard did and yet still feels the right to look down upon the rest of the server. Both parties know who they are.
Personally, it sounds like I have respect for the old guard of TMO. If you don't see it that way, that is your prerogative.

[Tecmos Deception]

Why is this so difficult?

Have each top (or contending /capable) guilds message Nilbog or Sirken the days and times during the week they'd like to raid - with a maximum allowance set by the server GMs at their discretion.

Then when they are in the zone, the boss is spawned and the GMs hang around(or come back) when it's over to make sure there's no loot bugs, zone crashes etc.

Additionally you're allowed as many wipes or attempts as you want, providing no other guild has reserved a slot anytime soon after yours(all registrations to be minimum three or five hours apart etc)

Everyone gets a shot, everyone gets some loot if successful and no more camping, training, interfering etc.

So you want the GMs to spend a ton of manhours to effective create a simulacrum of instancing on a server that's intended to recreate the classic, EQ experience? K.


Otherwise, quit fighting over something completely unimportant.

. . .

People are more important than your ego. /realitycheck

Look at you! The Big Man, logging onto p99 forums to tell all of us nolifers about the meaning of life.

[Toodles]

So you want the GMs to spend a ton of manhours to effective create a simulacrum of instancing on a server that's intended to recreate the classic, EQ experience? K.



Is it that hard? They spend more time dealing with the drama, nonsense and log studying (because of players' exploitations), than they would if they had some organized system in place.

And fu** the 'classic' experience at this point, there's so much NON classic here it's useless. They could at least salvage some of the morale of the server by bringing some order to the table.

Just because it's classic doesn't mean it's good.

The real reason we can't come to any resolution with this issue?; is because the players in power /control actually don't want it and the GMs don't give a crap either way.




Look at you! The Big Man, logging onto p99 forums to tell all of us nolifers about the meaning of life.

Clearly your attitude makes my point about any resolution.
It's no skin off my back - if you don't want to make progress fine...continue being a nolifer as you call yourself.

What is it you kids say 'you mad bro?'

[suptoofs]

Oh, no no no. Don't get all "How is this so hard for you to understand?" with me.

YOU are the one who said that TMO would raid JUST because they want to block everyone else from raiding. I questioned that a couple of times because it sounded like little more than a vengeful comment from someone who's on the losing end of things.

And now you are switching tunes to "I raid cause it's fun in and of itself" and acting like I'm dense for not understanding that raiding sans pixels/spite can be fun, when that is actually just redirecting the conversation to something else after you decided you don't want to claim to know what is on TMO's collective minds anymore.

PLUS you're throwing more vengeful comments at TMO even though there is no place in this immediate discussion for accusations of rule lawyering.


Just admit that you're blinded by your hatred for TMO and that they aren't actually out to get you (well except that they might actually be out to get YOU), but that they raid for the same reasons everyone else does: raiding, winning at raiding, and getting loot from raiding. They just seem to be more interested in those 3 things than anyone else on the server, so they end up with the vast majority of the raiding, wins, and loot.

You are either blatantly ignorant, or didn't read correctly.

[kbnexus]

I also don't know whats on TMO's collective minds, I prefaced every post stating I was not a member.


Oh I get it, its like when someone preface's a statement with "no offense" and then say something highly offensive.

No offense, but you are an idiot.

[suptoofs]

Oh I get it, its like when someone preface's a statement with "no offense" and then say something highly offensive.

No offense, but you are an idiot.

Why do you speak? You literally have nothing ever constructive to say.

[Tecmos Deception]

Oh I get it, its like when someone preface's a statement with "no offense" and then say something highly offensive.

No offense, but you are an idiot.

I wanted to say something along these lines, but couldn't think of a good statement to use!

Also, I remembered that I'm a retard for wasting so much time on the forums and tried to leave the thread alone. Heh.

[kbnexus]

Why do you speak? You literally have nothing ever constructive to say.

This thread has nothing constructive in it. Fitting, no?

Also, look at your previous post.

[quido]

You guys are trolling about trolling and about being constructive.

Take it to RnF and stop shitting up this super serious thread.

[Dantes]

Sounds to me like a rotation would actually mean less mobs for both TMO and BDA, because other guilds would step up and want to claim their own spot in the rotations as well. Ultimately this is a sacrifice both guilds would have to make for the betterment of the server, but it doesn't sound like anybody wants to do that.

It's understandable, it sort of goes against the very nature of this game. If we wanted it easy, we'd play an instanced game. But still... on a server with a third of the population of an average live server, comprised of mostly adults, you'd think everybody would be able to experience the high end raiding part of the game.

Competition is classic. But owning several "guild account" characters camped at every raid mob is not that classic. Being able to dominate a server with only 500 online during peak times, also not that classic. Winning at this competition is like winning a boxing match against a guy with 1 arm. Not really worth bragging about. Even if we did let every guild with 30 raid-ready members join the rotation, with that low population, how bad could it get if we had to share with the other children?

[kbnexus]

Sounds to me like a rotation would actually mean less mobs for both TMO and BDA, because other guilds would step up and want to claim their own spot in the rotations as well. Ultimately this is a sacrifice both guilds would have to make for the betterment of the server, but it doesn't sound like anybody wants to do that.

It's understandable, it sort of goes against the very nature of this game. If we wanted it easy, we'd play an instanced game. But still... on a server with a third of the population of an average live server, comprised of mostly adults, you'd think everybody would be able to experience the high end raiding part of the game.

Competition is classic. But owning several "guild account" characters camped at every raid mob is not that classic. Being able to dominate a server with only 500 online during peak times, also not that classic. Winning at this competition is like winning a boxing match against a guy with 1 arm. Not really worth bragging about. Even if we did let every guild with 30 raid-ready members join the rotation, with that low population, how bad could it get if we had to share with the other children?

Well according to a "classic timeline" we should be in Luclin now. This is the real problem.

[falkun]

Sounds to me like a rotation would actually mean less mobs for both TMO and BDA, because other guilds would step up and want to claim their own spot in the rotations as well. Ultimately this is a sacrifice both guilds would have to make for the betterment of the server, but it doesn't sound like anybody wants to do that.

Speaking for none other than myself, I'd do this in a heartbeat, regardless of guild I am ever affiliated with.

[Tecmos Deception]

But still... on a server with a third of the population of an average live server, comprised of mostly adults, you'd think everybody would be able to experience the high end raiding part of the game.

Why would you think this?

Yes, server pop is much smaller than live servers were in the classic era. But even with a peak server population of only 600-700, you're looking at 200+ level 50+ characters. And there are only ~16 real raid boss spawns per week (outside of VP and sky) on p99. And when you consider that some raid mobs can be killed by as few as 2-3 60s, and no raid mob really needs more than 4 groups...

You'd have to spread those raid boss kills very thin in order to get all of those players (and those are just players, not characters) in on the party. Even if you tried to split them up just amongst TMO, BDA, Acyrid, Taken, and Divinity, that's only 3 kills per guild per week. And that leaves out a few other guilds that could also kill a number of the less difficulty targets like maestro and fay and such.

The relatively large number of hardcore raiders on this server compared to live would not be content killing only a few bosses per week, so they mostly have ended up in the same place and they proceed to kill most of the bosses.


[O]wning several "guild account" characters camped at every raid mob is not that classic.

I seriously doubt this is the case. It's probably more like "most of TMO has a geared 60 main and 1 vox/naggy alt" and "a little bit of TMO has 1-2 other relatively geared 55+ characters." There's no way TMO has several characters accessible to the guild at large at every raid mob. That'd be like 50+ characters.



The raid scene/endgame isn't that bad here, imo.

TMO dominates 90% of the gods and dragons, and BDA gets 9%, and everyone else occasionally stumbles upon a maestro or kills a dragon or two when TMO is raidbanned.

But SEVERAL different guilds besides teh big 2 (Taken, Divinity, Acyrid, Asgard, Full Circle?, Europa?) regularly clear hate and fear, complete all of the epics that don't require god kills, spend some time in sky, and have mini-raids in chardok and hole.


As far as I can tell, everyone would like to get in on killing gods and dragons, but no one except TMO is willing to go to the "extremes" that are necessary to win those kills away from others. Smaller guilds don't want to merge to improve their chances, most players are too casual to be willing to spend time tracking or getting out of bed for a batphone, and lots of players talk about washing their hands of the whole scene because they just don't like the way it works.

That's fine! But don't complain on the forums that you want to raid gods and dragons!

[Tecmos Deception]

I'm kind of curious about something though.

I know that on live in the kunark and velious eras, I was a pretty casual player (mindset wise, at least. I was online as much as a high schooler playing sports possibly could be). I was in awe of the gear that Trak and such dropped. I didn't even know what VP was. I had no aspirations of ever completing my epic. The most "exciting" things I ever did back then were pickup raids of vox and naggy or spending time with a single group at a cash camp somewhere (although back then I spent more time at something like warlord in KC than at crypt or HS south or whatever).

Was I just THAT much more casual than the majority of this server's 50+, that I was content drooling over drops from seb instead of demanding that my guild be given a rotation for attempting stuff like Trak and VS? Or is it the ubiquitous MMO entitlement thing? Or what?


I guess it seems likely that I was just blissful in my ignorance? I don't know.

[Lazortag]

As far as I can tell, everyone would like to get in on killing gods and dragons, but no one except TMO is willing to go to the "extremes" that are necessary to win those kills away from others. Smaller guilds don't want to merge to improve their chances, most players are too casual to be willing to spend time tracking or getting out of bed for a batphone, and lots of players talk about washing their hands of the whole scene because they just don't like the way it works.

Guilds shouldn't have to merge to compete. On Live you didn't need to have 50+ players online every night to be able to get a shot at raid content. Merging implies lowering recruiting standards because you'll be accepting large numbers of people without putting them through a formal app process. Smaller guilds are probably unwilling to spend time tracking because they have less people to spread tracking responsibilities to, and it's an un-classic waste of time.

Moreover, the time investment isn't worth the small chance at content. Just to give an example, a while ago I tracked maestro and we had a force up in Hate soon after he spawned, as did BDA and TMO. We arrived at about the same time and all three guilds had a realistic shot at getting the mob, but only one guild prevailed in the end. This means there was a ~33% chance of each guild getting the mob. When you consider that you spend an average of 24 hours per cycle tracking 3 day spawns, that they can spawn when most of the server won't be awake, and that the chance of getting them even if they spawn at the perfect time is very low, this discourages competition from smaller guilds - in ANY situation where they're competing against BDA and TMO for a raid mob, because spawns don't happen simultaneously, their chances of getting the mob are 33% at best (and realistically they're much lower than that for small guilds). Even spending 24 hours for one mob per week is way too much of an investment compared to what was required in classic.

Again, I reiterate what I said before that I don't consider this TMO's fault or BDA's fault or whatever. So long as they abide by the rules they shouldn't be expected to change their behaviour or do anything that's not in their best interests. By that same token, I'd appreciate that people don't make little suggestions to smaller guilds about what they should do to be more "on the ball", especially when most of those suggestions (poopsocking, merging, etc.) are totally unacceptable to us.

[Tecmos Deception]

I want to say I remember reading somewhere that the majority of TMO tracking is done by only a handful of the guild's players. Lord knows I'm not going to be able to find the post, but I'll try.

Assuming I did actually read that though, it just seems to reinforce the whole "the players who are willing to invest the most time/energy into raiding are all in TMO, and that's why TMO gets most all of the raid mobs" rather than the "small guilds have fewer people to share the load, that's why we don't get kills."

[Tecmos Deception]

Guilds shouldn't have to merge to compete. On Live you didn't need to have 50+ players online every night to be able to get a shot at raid content.

As cliche as it is, this isn't live and this isn't classic and this isn't the turn of the millenium. We're just trying to recreate the classic feeling, and I think the biggest reason why we just have a classic feeling instead of classic itself is because of the changes in us and our third-party doodads in the last deacde.

And I don't think guilds DO need to merge to compete. But if a guild wants to remain small, I also don't think they will have much raiding success without making up for their size in other ways. It's competitive, after all. You can't be small and casual and unwilling to use the tactics that work and still expect to win out more than once in a blue moon.


Moreover, the time investment isn't worth the small chance at content.

I agree! And I think most people agree that 24 hours spent for a 33% chance at winning a fight that only lasts a minute anyways and only yields loot for a player or two isn't worth it either. And I think that's why most of the players on p99 who are the most focused on killing raid mobs are congregated into a large guild together... to help make sure that the time they invest yields a high chance at content instead of a small chance.



By that same token, I'd appreciate that people don't make little suggestions to smaller guilds about what they should do to be more "on the ball", especially when most of those suggestions (poopsocking, merging, etc.) are totally unacceptable to us.

I hope this wasn't directed at me! I not only did not tell anyone what to do, but I specifically acknowledged that a lot of people don't want to be in zergrecruiting megaguilds that require certain raid attendance amounts, and that a lot of people simply want nothing to do with those strategies. I just mention merging and whatnot because it seems like the only way to have success in p99's current raid environment.

[Tulvinous]

First off... LOL. Second off, WTF?

I stopped reading this after page 7, I really couldn't go any further trying to understand other people’s ideal logic of what is fair and what isn't.

So you brought up timers, head starts, and such. Please tell me who's going to manage, verify, and track logs for every single encounter of each guild? That's asking a lot for every target, every week, for the remaining life of the server when competition comes into play. But while we're at it lets release Velious and add another 10+ high priority targets people might be competing against and put them GM's to work micro managing even more filters to search who wins what, I'm sure they'll love that.

You want a rotation system and for all intents and purposes one clearly and cleverly thought out system might work. But there could be zero loop holes, forcing some intense clarity on the current raid scene so that there isn't any "grey space". The only other problem and it's a personal stance on rotations, and mind you I haven’t be online in about a month because content is stale and competition is lacking. But is that once you add several "open race" spots, or start adding a 3rd or 4th guild rotation spot top guild a and top guild b won’t be very satisfied any longer. You begin to thin out their potential pixels and spread out the scheduled raiding days passively making people grow bored and tired.

Most people enjoy having alts and I'm sure almost everyone has at least 1-2, but at the same time I'm sure quite a few people don't have any. For those who don't have any they enjoy focusing all their time and effort into one character. When you implement these ideas it effects not just the raid scene as a guild perspective but an individual’s perspective of if and when I log in, is there going to be crap for me to do online? This is amplified with variance.

If you want rotation, don't come to the table with an argument so weakly identifiable. You're instantly losing your footing on an argument when you bring up unequal situations that have spanned over the three years of the server with different guilds, server rules that have migrated over time, and GM's(a select few GM's in the past have included their personalities that have shown deliberate attempts to provoke conflict). So don’t come to the table with bias, instead come to table with a decent proposal to start and expand on it with down to earth expectations.

Peace.

[arsenalpow]

no, FTE is fun. Let's have each of our guilds sit 5-10 trackers in the middle of the ocean in TD and tag Fay ~1sec after he spawns

that was a very enjoyable encounter

[quido]

Maybe if you never went and parked on spawns, we wouldn't either. Maybe! Maybe not.

[arsenalpow]

Maybe if you never went and parked on spawns, we wouldn't either. Maybe! Maybe not.

but the competition!

[quido]

You're doing it wrong.

[kbnexus]

You're doing it wrong.

[Xanthias]

I want to say I remember reading somewhere that the majority of TMO tracking is done by only a handful of the guild's players. Lord knows I'm not going to be able to find the post, but I'll try.

Assuming I did actually read that though, it just seems to reinforce the whole "the players who are willing to invest the most time/energy into raiding are all in TMO, and that's why TMO gets most all of the raid mobs" rather than the "small guilds have fewer people to share the load, that's why we don't get kills."

Confirmed.

[Sadad]

A rotation isn't feasible right now, but the way our two guilds behave when a mob is low in window is silly. That's where we should work something out. If you guys ever decide you want to talk, I am willing to listen.

If you think that an agreement to avoid poopsocking the last 10-20% of a window is tantamount to a rotation, then I don't really know what to tell you.

[Galelor]

Well according to a "classic timeline" we should be in Luclin now. This is the real problem.

+1

[Daliant17447]

the way our two guilds behave when a mob is low in window is silly. That's where we should work something out. If you guys ever decide you want to talk, I am willing to listen.

When 2 guilds are sitting on a spawn point in a late window situation, the guild that gets the kill (experience) wins. Its better than leaving it up to RNG "seek-mode fte" nonsense. Also no GM involvement needed.

[Harazzer]

Still sorta RNG but still 100x better than the current situation.

[Tulvinous]

If an NPC doesn't spawns within the last 3 hours of a window TMO and BDA are not allowed to kill it within the next 36 hours! OMG! I almost solved the whole poopsock idea... just wait for it! But what about FTE you ask?! I KNOW, ME TO!! All of TMO and BDA must be perm soul bound in the middle of the arena! Every time they login, they zone into this zone regardless of where they camped out (DONT GO LD). Each guild gets 3 keys to open the door (make it perm locked otherwise) and must PVP their way out while collecting their gear!

Ok... so we solved opening up the window to other guilds during the same window they have to contest normally but now even with an edge afterwards. Both top contending guilds are forced to mobilize upon logging in. Everyone gets an excellent crash course in on how to PVP in EQ.

Totally classic and would be a barrel of laughter, I mean slaughter!















Now back to Gallaga!

[Acillatem]

My only gripe is with the "new guard" of TMO, who didn't put in the collective work that the old guard did and yet still feels the right to look down upon the rest of the server. Both parties know who they are.

Well, my only gripe with BDA is with the "new guard" of VDA who in my eyes are using BDA as an ends to a mean when they didn't give 2 shits about them a couple of months prior.

When TMO was raid suspended and BDA did this "goodwill" rotation back in June, I laughed a little on the inside. Becuz when IB/TMO were suspended in February (and I was still an officer in VD), I brought up doing a rotation with other guilds, or helping with epics, or just general good will, and the reactions of ALL the other VD Officers were "fuck that", "not a chance in hell", "I'm not tracking so other people can get epics", "fuk Ninik", and "this is our chance for loot". (those are exact quotes btw - I'm not just making shit up). A very "anti-server" attitude - and was honestly when I first started to grow a bit disgruntled with VD.

And the irony of it was a day later Stealin started pushing for Ninik's epic. And a week later TMO started the Endangered Species (ie a rotation of sorts). It made me sit and wonder "who's the bad guy here". I'm supposed to be in a guild who since inception has been a pinnacle of good will and fair play etc, yet the "bad guys" are taking a more "server friendly stance" than VD?

So as a member of the "New Guard, Inc.", I guess we feel the same way about each other :)

[Rais]

You're already in TMO, you don't need to make up stuff to make it look better for you to join Ace. You pretty much have no idea what you're talking about and full of shit when it comes to anything VD. You weren't part of the guild nor the officer corp but only in name. Coldblooded wouldn't remove you even when _every_single_officer wanted you removed due to your inability at anything, much-less members of the guild asking who this Ace guy was.

The fact you even bring up Niniks epic is laughable. TMO and IB had the cleric epic on lockdown and had the only epics. Heaven forbid VD even get one, and it wasn't until TMO was raid suspended, did they say " oh let Ninik get her epic before VD people, I will kill ragefire if VD tries to get it etc etc. If you logged on at all you might have known what was going on, but you ran your mouth not knowing and people told you to shut up. We wanted 1 epic, and were more than happy to let Ninik have the 2nd one. So yea, also lets forget about the server repop when we left Trakanon, all Kunark dragons up and the Gods, and only killed vs for 24 hours for the other guilds. I'm sure that slipped your mind while headbanging away in your Trans Am with your mullet getting caught on your alligator clip earrings.


You brought up rotations with other guilds when you had no idea in the first place what was even taking place on this server since you never logged on. We even called you out on it on VD boards asking you wtf, since you clearly had no idea what was going on and you even went back and edited your post because of how stupid you looked. How the fact you can claim you were an officer, when all you did was relate to back the pvp days of Knights of the Rose, and never logged on to do anything but complain you were passed over for loot by people who attended more raids in the 2 weeks they were in the guild than the year+ you were in VD.


As for rotations :

Some people wanted a rotation, others didn't. It worked out for Trak for a while before it died off and I would almost say all 3 guilds we're prolly happy it did happen since it allowed people to do other things than camp out for Trakanon for 2 days. The problem came when a good handful of people wanted to go enter VP for VD. That's when the issues came up.

This server would be better off working together than pulling stupid shit like FTE. Hell make a open pact to not enter VP for a long period of time to get a Trakanon rotation. Yet I'm sure the only way you can win a rotation is to starve the person who has been feasting on him the past few months. Then they will give in. Otherwise you'll just play in to their own game of trying to get FTE rights by throwing something, exploiting training jugs over the water and on to the other guild, or FD to stand up as your guild engages. That's not competition, that's resorting to bullshit rule lawyering when you lose especially when the GMs will do anything about it, even on fraps.

I personally don't feel a FTE should would work, it's too manipulative just like FTE with a FD person. So when Yendor or a handful of other people stomp their feet saying it would be the end of all the raid evil, wait till that lvl 20 agros Trakanon with a SBI and kites him around while 40 people log in.

[Daliant17447]

Can't believe this is still in server chat

[Daliant17447]

oh hi rnf

[mitic]

ez solution, go play instanced live eq if u can't handle open world encounters.

ya know, it's just because of subjects like this one why soe ruined the game.

[lilyanna]

Well, my only gripe with BDA is with the "new guard" of VDA who in my eyes are using BDA as an ends to a mean when they didn't give 2 shits about them a couple of months prior.

When TMO was raid suspended and BDA did this "goodwill" rotation back in June, I laughed a little on the inside. Becuz when IB/TMO were suspended in February (and I was still an officer in VD), I brought up doing a rotation with other guilds, or helping with epics, or just general good will, and the reactions of ALL the other VD Officers were "fuck that", "not a chance in hell", "I'm not tracking so other people can get epics", "fuk Ninik", and "this is our chance for loot". (those are exact quotes btw - I'm not just making shit up). A very "anti-server" attitude - and was honestly when I first started to grow a bit disgruntled with VD.

And the irony of it was a day later Stealin started pushing for Ninik's epic. And a week later TMO started the Endangered Species (ie a rotation of sorts). It made me sit and wonder "who's the bad guy here". I'm supposed to be in a guild who since inception has been a pinnacle of good will and fair play etc, yet the "bad guys" are taking a more "server friendly stance" than VD?

So as a member of the "New Guard, Inc.", I guess we feel the same way about each other :)

Lol seriously I am amazed you can sit here and write these bare faced lies.. pretty funny Ace.

[Maze513]

A rotation isn't feasible right now, but the way our two guilds behave when a mob is low in window is silly. That's where we should work something out. If you guys ever decide you want to talk, I am willing to listen.

If you think that an agreement to avoid poopsocking the last 10-20% of a window is tantamount to a rotation, then I don't really know what to tell you.


But what about them classic "Jugg raids" lol Trak under 5 hrs left in window usaly about 45-60 BDA show up to "Raid Juggs" ualy all standing around Tola spawn with a few in Trak agro range if not sitting on spawn... So even with the best of planning, things like this just set a standard. and Yes we DO expect you to live up to the conditions youve help to create.

[Savok]

ez solution, go play instanced live eq if u can't handle open world encounters.

ya know, it's just because of subjects like this one why soe ruined the game.

I'm not asking for EZ mode, I'm asking that the way FTE is applied on this server needs to be evaluated. Having one person under the spawn and throwing a spear to get agro while the other guild kills it with 20, 30, 50, 100, 30000 people is stupid.

Basically don't engage unless you know you can kill it.

[quido]

Maybe people should just get better at realizing that some snipe team stole their precious FTE - that's what we did! When Emong (gotta be shinko) tried to snipe Trak FTE not long ago, our raid was told to stay put and not engage. But when TMO has FTE on Trak by a full 12 seconds, BDA still rushes in and engages the dragon. Why? You tell me.

Of course it is a different situation when both guilds are parked on the spawn, but when it's a situation of a fast engage, I think it's reasonable that people be punished for shitty awareness.

[kbnexus]

You're already in TMO, you don't need to make up stuff to make it look better for you to join Ace. You pretty much have no idea what you're talking about and full of shit when it comes to anything VD. You weren't part of the guild nor the officer corp but only in name. Coldblooded wouldn't remove you even when _every_single_officer wanted you removed due to your inability at anything, much-less members of the guild asking who this Ace guy was.

The fact you even bring up Niniks epic is laughable. TMO and IB had the cleric epic on lockdown and had the only epics. Heaven forbid VD even get one, and it wasn't until TMO was raid suspended, did they say " oh let Ninik get her epic before VD people, I will kill ragefire if VD tries to get it etc etc. If you logged on at all you might have known what was going on, but you ran your mouth not knowing and people told you to shut up. We wanted 1 epic, and were more than happy to let Ninik have the 2nd one. So yea, also lets forget about the server repop when we left Trakanon, all Kunark dragons up and the Gods, and only killed vs for 24 hours for the other guilds. I'm sure that slipped your mind while headbanging away in your Trans Am with your mullet getting caught on your alligator clip earrings.


You brought up rotations with other guilds when you had no idea in the first place what was even taking place on this server since you never logged on. We even called you out on it on VD boards asking you wtf, since you clearly had no idea what was going on and you even went back and edited your post because of how stupid you looked. How the fact you can claim you were an officer, when all you did was relate to back the pvp days of Knights of the Rose, and never logged on to do anything but complain you were passed over for loot by people who attended more raids in the 2 weeks they were in the guild than the year+ you were in VD.


As for rotations :

Some people wanted a rotation, others didn't. It worked out for Trak for a while before it died off and I would almost say all 3 guilds we're prolly happy it did happen since it allowed people to do other things than camp out for Trakanon for 2 days. The problem came when a good handful of people wanted to go enter VP for VD. That's when the issues came up.

This server would be better off working together than pulling stupid shit like FTE. Hell make a open pact to not enter VP for a long period of time to get a Trakanon rotation. Yet I'm sure the only way you can win a rotation is to starve the person who has been feasting on him the past few months. Then they will give in. Otherwise you'll just play in to their own game of trying to get FTE rights by throwing something, exploiting training jugs over the water and on to the other guild, or FD to stand up as your guild engages. That's not competition, that's resorting to bullshit rule lawyering when you lose especially when the GMs will do anything about it, even on fraps.

I personally don't feel a FTE should would work, it's too manipulative just like FTE with a FD person. So when Yendor or a handful of other people stomp their feet saying it would be the end of all the raid evil, wait till that lvl 20 agros Trakanon with a SBI and kites him around while 40 people log in.




Who to believe Ace who has been trustworthy throughout his career even when VD and TMO were at each others throats, or Rais a known liar, and shady bastard who has spun more lies and conspiracies than almost anyone on the forums.

Ez choice here.

[Tanthallas]

Your FTE was a cleric who ran in and DA'ed right after our necro who we sent in to get shroomed. Our necro died...we waited and i sent another person in, however it seems that your cleric snagged the next spot on the agro list before him.

The first person to engage 12 seconds after your cleric ran in was me. TMO had a total of 14 people engaged on trak during the first half of the fight, topping off at an impressive 21 people at the end I believe. By the time TMO's initial force had all engaged, there were over 30 BDA engaged as well.

The real question would be: if it was a battle of 'fast' engage and awareness was the issue, i.e., if TMO had any intention of killing trak with 14 people, why did it take 12 seconds for 14 TMO to run in; and why did they just happened to run in after the BDA force over over 30 people?

The 12 seconds delay in BDA's engage after your cleric followed our necro shows the opposite of a race to engage by two guilds ready to kill a mob - it shows that the game was one of trying to sneak through and be the first on Trak's agro list while hoping that BDA did not notice and went in to kill it.

And thats fine; whatever mine or anyone else's opinions about this type of play are, this shit has been going on for quite a long time and we are all pretty familiar with it. But atleast call it what it is and do not try to dress it up as something it was not.

[Thana8088]

But, but, but your puller took a wrong turn and ran right past our caammmmppppp.

[Zeelot]

Your necro went in first, set off an aoe and died. I Went in on that cleric after the fact, it takes about 12 seconds for trak to fire off a second aoe so I waited for that. That day we rushed for another go and actually had our small force fully buffed and ready already. The CR took about 20min so there was plenty of buff time. I even said in raid vent "it is now or never if we want another go, bda is moving up"

You guys just suck and arent aware when trak is aggro on someone. Learn to pay attention!

But yeah, TMO is evil

[Artah]

Rotation:
TMO
BDA
Divinity
Asgard
Full Circle
Acyrid
Taken
Flawless Victory



Shouldn't the rotation look like this for something like VS?

[Tanthallas]

Your necro went in first, set off an aoe and died. I Went in on that cleric after the fact, it takes about 12 seconds for trak to fire off a second aoe so I waited for that. That day we rushed for another go and actually had our small force fully buffed and ready already. The CR took about 20min so there was plenty of buff time. I even said in raid vent "it is now or never if we want another go, bda is moving up"

You guys just suck and arent aware when trak is aggro on someone. Learn to pay attention!

But yeah, TMO is evil

Will you have my baby?

[Shinko]

(gotta be shinko) tried

Deny 100% not me

[quido]

Confirmed 100% Possible

[Daliant17447]

Emong confirmed young Perun

[JenJen]

lol wow when did ace turn into a complete penis

[lilyanna]

Emong confirmed young Perun

Emong confirmed 52.. wow perun is real old :p

[Knightt]

Hey Lilyanna *wave

[Taelara]

Crying > Trying

I like how VDA has sniped FTE more than any guild, yet you are bitching because people aren't falling for your minuteman recruitment style. You track 1 target 5% of the time and expect everything to fall into your hands when you can't even weed out the trolls in your guild that ruin your reputation? Give me a fucking break.

[Tanthallas]

Bomb any vent's lately, or was that a one time thing?

Careful.

[Tanthallas]

I like how VDA has sniped FTE more than any guild

BDA and VD combined do not have as many FTE snipes as TMO for the sheer fact that TMO has been doing it many many times longer.

Luckily for you, TMO does not care about the trolls in their guild that ruin their reputation.

[KentalCowtipper]

BDA and VD combined do not have as many FTE snipes as TMO for the sheer fact that TMO has been doing it many many times longer.

Luckily for you, TMO does not care about the trolls in their guild that ruin their reputation.

BDA is up to 10 days in a row with no raid mobs kills now eh? Not a single Maestro, Draco or Fay even.

Looks like you guys wanted to play the FTE snipe game (starting with having 5 in zone and sniping VS) but it turns out you're even worse at that game than you are at EQ in general.

10 days n counting. Whats the Over/underline at 13? 15? Before you guys manage to snipe a single raid target.

[KentalCowtipper]

Your necro went in first, set off an aoe and died. I Went in on that cleric after the fact, it takes about 12 seconds for trak to fire off a second aoe so I waited for that. That day we rushed for another go and actually had our small force fully buffed and ready already. The CR took about 20min so there was plenty of buff time. I even said in raid vent "it is now or never if we want another go, bda is moving up"

You guys just suck and arent aware when trak is aggro on someone. Learn to pay attention!

But yeah, TMO is evil

Damn Zee.. stop posting logic and facts in RnF. You're going to confuse all the trolls.

[kbnexus]

BDA and VD combined do not have as many FTE snipes as TMO for the sheer fact that TMO has been doing it many many times longer.

Luckily for you, TMO does not care about the trolls in their guild that ruin their reputation.

We are the top guild on the server rere our reputation will be shit just due to the fact that we are on top. Look at EQ history or any non instanced MMO. Every top guild on every server got labeled as assholes/dicks not because they actually were, but because they won, meaning there were sore butt hurt bitches who lost. Plus no one remembers the good things people do, people focus on the negative.

Also, remove that tinfoil hat before it becomes part of your anatomy. No one is going into your vent to disrupt your raids. Bush didnt knock down the towers. TMO didn't pay off Amelinda. Barack Obama isnt a secret Kenyan Muslim.

Get over it.

[hatelore]

There is a big difference between the top guild's on live and Tmo. Tmo are full of a bunch of asshat dickheads who like to do nothing more then grief,train,fte lawyer, whatever it takes to win.
You guys don't have skill or class, you will step on anyone's toes to get the phat lewts, and the entire server pretty much knows this. You guys are just too stupid or elitist to realize this entire server minus your gay ass guild hates you.

[Tanthallas]

No one is going into your vent to disrupt your raids. Bush didnt knock down the towers. TMO didn't pay off Amelinda. Barack Obama isnt a secret Kenyan Muslim.

First, noone claimed TMO was paying off Amelinda. The fact, not the claim, was that your guildmember was fucking her. Hi Tiggles.

Second, we have the record and the IP address that the vent bombing is associated with. You would think that it is too nice in Fort Lauderdale to waste time vent bombing, but apparently some people dont go outside.

Third, I agree with the other two statements.

[Autotune]

Ragefire rotation is all thanks to me and a few other people, but mostly me, definitely had nothing to do with a post on the p99 forums from some random that no one knows.

[Autotune]

You're already in TMO, you don't need to make up stuff to make it look better for you to join Ace. You pretty much have no idea what you're talking about and full of shit when it comes to anything VD. You weren't part of the guild nor the officer corp but only in name. Coldblooded wouldn't remove you even when _every_single_officer wanted you removed due to your inability at anything, much-less members of the guild asking who this Ace guy was.

The fact you even bring up Niniks epic is laughable. TMO and IB had the cleric epic on lockdown and had the only epics. Heaven forbid VD even get one, and it wasn't until TMO was raid suspended, did they say " oh let Ninik get her epic before VD people, I will kill ragefire if VD tries to get it etc etc. If you logged on at all you might have known what was going on, but you ran your mouth not knowing and people told you to shut up. We wanted 1 epic, and were more than happy to let Ninik have the 2nd one. So yea, also lets forget about the server repop when we left Trakanon, all Kunark dragons up and the Gods, and only killed vs for 24 hours for the other guilds. I'm sure that slipped your mind while headbanging away in your Trans Am with your mullet getting caught on your alligator clip earrings.


You brought up rotations with other guilds when you had no idea in the first place what was even taking place on this server since you never logged on. We even called you out on it on VD boards asking you wtf, since you clearly had no idea what was going on and you even went back and edited your post because of how stupid you looked. How the fact you can claim you were an officer, when all you did was relate to back the pvp days of Knights of the Rose, and never logged on to do anything but complain you were passed over for loot by people who attended more raids in the 2 weeks they were in the guild than the year+ you were in VD.


As for rotations :

Some people wanted a rotation, others didn't. It worked out for Trak for a while before it died off and I would almost say all 3 guilds we're prolly happy it did happen since it allowed people to do other things than camp out for Trakanon for 2 days. The problem came when a good handful of people wanted to go enter VP for VD. That's when the issues came up.

This server would be better off working together than pulling stupid shit like FTE. Hell make a open pact to not enter VP for a long period of time to get a Trakanon rotation. Yet I'm sure the only way you can win a rotation is to starve the person who has been feasting on him the past few months. Then they will give in. Otherwise you'll just play in to their own game of trying to get FTE rights by throwing something, exploiting training jugs over the water and on to the other guild, or FD to stand up as your guild engages. That's not competition, that's resorting to bullshit rule lawyering when you lose especially when the GMs will do anything about it, even on fraps.

I personally don't feel a FTE should would work, it's too manipulative just like FTE with a FD person. So when Yendor or a handful of other people stomp their feet saying it would be the end of all the raid evil, wait till that lvl 20 agros Trakanon with a SBI and kites him around while 40 people log in.

Oh on this part, I knew what was going to play out, VD didn't have a clue (as usual). VD members were only concerned in getting "more" cleric epics than TMO. They didn't care about the rotation because they could cock block all the other guilds with TMO/IB out of the way. If VD had agreed to the rotation they would have gotten the exact same amount of cleric epics, they were just being greedy (go look up the tell logs between me and lilyanna that i posted on some random RnF thread awhile back, it's all there) which ended with TMO getting off suspension early and ruining VD's greed.

If it wasn't for some people disagreeing with TMO's plan to destroy VD for being dicks and say fuck the rotation, TMO would have cockblocked with IB on Ragefire for months. Hell, you guys (everyone not in TMO/IB) might not even have fucking cleric epics atm if it wasn't for those few people.

[kbnexus]

First, noone claimed TMO was paying off Amelinda. The fact, not the claim, was that your guildmember was fucking her. Hi Tiggles.

Second, we have the record and the IP address that the vent bombing is associated with. You would think that it is too nice in Fort Lauderdale to waste time vent bombing, but apparently some people dont go outside.

Third, I agree with the other two statements.

1st, plenty of BDA and VD members think we paid amelinda. Tiggles was a "guild member" who never played, and they lived many states away from each other so fucking is in questions

2nd So only TMO players live in Fort Lauderdale?

derp

[Tanthallas]

I am sure many people live in Fort Lauderdale. However, not many people share the same IP address as the person in Fort Lauderdale that vent bombed BDA.

derp?

[Sirken]

so many tears.


there have been 3 FTE related incidents since i've been GM.

FTE works fine.

Common Sense works better.

<3

[Diggles]

you ladies need to man up

we need killing blow = loot belongs to the killer

THAT would be awesome.

[Diggles]

Last edited by Sirken; Today at 01:45 AM..

SIRKEN QUIT BREAKING THE RULES

[Acrux Bcrux]

We are the top guild on the server rere our reputation will be shit just due to the fact that we are on top. Look at EQ history or any non instanced MMO. Every top guild on every server got labeled as assholes/dicks not because they actually were, but because they won, meaning there were sore butt hurt bitches who lost.

I dont give 2 fux about the raid scene but TMOs cleric telling me she/he wont rez me because "she/he is not that type of cleric" when standing there doing nothing with a click stick in their hand. Yall aint dickheads, for sure.

RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHTTT

[kbnexus]

There is a big difference between the top guild's on live and Tmo. Tmo are full of a bunch of asshat dickheads who like to do nothing more then grief,train,fte lawyer, whatever it takes to win.
You guys don't have skill or class, you will step on anyone's toes to get the phat lewts, and the entire server pretty much knows this. You guys are just too stupid or elitist to realize this entire server minus your gay ass guild hates you.

Did you even play live? A large majority of every server thought their uber guilders were dicks.

You are too stupid to realize most of this server actually likes us. Anecdotes are fun!

[Harazzer]

We are the top guild on the server rere our reputation will be shit just due to the fact that we are on top. Look at EQ history or any non instanced MMO. Every top guild on every server got labeled as assholes/dicks not because they actually were, but because they won, meaning there were sore butt hurt bitches who lost. Plus no one remembers the good things people do, people focus on the negative.

Also, remove that tinfoil hat before it becomes part of your anatomy. No one is going into your vent to disrupt your raids. Bush didnt knock down the towers. TMO didn't pay off Amelinda. Barack Obama isnt a secret Kenyan Muslim.

Get over it.

A lot of us were in the "top guild" back when it actually mattered and meant something. This is a nostalgia server, pushing every situation to ad nauseum extremes just makes you look like desperate losers. And Amelinda was in your pocket. Any question of this can easily be answered by the VP incident where adriana and getsome had the entire TMO raid trained into oblivion for 5 fucking hours and she just appears and bans them in a no rules zone so you could CR. Not the only incident, just the most blatant one.

And yes, I know the individual in TMO that initiated a digital attack on our ventrilo server. Given its crude and amateur nature it has been overlooked this one time. If any future digital attacks happen, expect retribution. This is the only comment/warning that will occur on the topic.

so many tears.


there have been 3 FTE related incidents since i've been GM.

FTE works fine.

Common Sense works better.

<3

Nice response bro. Do me a favor and look up reductive reasoning on the internet. FTE is fucking stupid, just like the title of this thread states. It makes raid mob engagements even more tied to rule lawyering and stupid bullshit than 15 on spawn did, and even that rule was not good.

I realize being a GM on a server with so many awful people probably gives you a pretty jaded outlook but honestly, just because it is minimal effort on your part doesn't mean it is a good policy for the long term. Sad truth is this server is a big deal to a lot of people. I think some serious reform is needed in the amount of GM's, their general policies, and the rulesets as a whole that the server abides by. How many have quit due to these "works fine" rulings that have been used to screw people over so many times?

[Tanthallas]

God could you possibly fucking nerd rage any harder? Do you realize how much of a little bitch you sound like? "Expect retribution!!!"

I'M GONNA TELL MY MOMMY IF IT HAPPENS AGAIN, YOU JUST WAIT!!

No wonder you are the ones getting stomped on in competition.

I am pretty sure all he is saying is that TMO can behave like cockbags inside game and win at it because, well, there are very few people who will go to the lengths that TMO will go for pixels and in-game notoriety. TMO will not win, however, if they take this behavior outside of the game because its success relies to a large extent on the fact that people are not willing to put in such effort or go to such lengths in-game; outside of game dynamics are quite different - many people take real life far more seriously, and the repercussions for acting like TMO are far more serious as well.

'Expect retribution' is a warning to not take it to this level. You guys can be the rulers of the emu-server all you want - you are not and you will never be anywhere close to this in real life. If Taelara or anyone else does this shit again, expect that it is returned tenfold not just on the individual but the guild as a whole. It has nothing to do with anyone's ability to compete in-game, and you have to be a fucking moron to interpret it this way.

[quido]

So great, nobody's vent/website will work =P

[Enygma]

LoL... sad noob... sorry go play on EQmac with the rest of them.

[mitic]

u dont like FTE? well, i have the solution. (last word in my sig)

[Xanthias]

Common Sense works better.


but Sirken... Common sense ain't common, it's an ultra rare drop

[Diggles]

u dont like FTE? well, i have the solution. (last word in my sig)

kill yourself

[Nirgon]

Common Sense works better.


I've been literally told that "common sense doesn't apply to these situations" by some of the people here.

I'd mail them a toaster if I was confident they'd jump in a tub with it.

[Nirgon]

paid amelinda.

Well I can tell you that no one was paying Uthgaard when he was in power and there was TONS more whining... so..

[Diggles]

a cock is more payment than any form of money

[Autotune]

I'd mail them a toaster if I was confident they'd jump in a tub with it.

n1

[kphooper33]

I havent had much experience with raiding on P99 - but I played on Veeshan in Circle of Eternity (arguable 2nd best guild on the server) and I remember FoH setting up a rotation on mobs and being fairly reasonable. Never experienced this kind of behaviour and from an outside perspective some of these posts sound pretty immature.

OP seems to be a reasonable solution to a problem. Yes maybe not a TMO problem but I for one want to raid when I get to the appropriate level and if I cant do my epic or get items I want because one guild has it all on lock down - ill probably call it quits which I presume happens to alot of people if they cant achieve their goals.

So for server health a more mature attitude would be beneficial.

FYI I have grouped with TMO and BDA people and found them all to be nice so I presume the immature attitudes are a select few and limited to the raid scene.

Zar /wink

Don't try to reason with them. They can play more than you therefore they are cooler, just ask them. Welcome to the raid world of P99. They don't care what worked for FoH and kept live servers working smoothly. A rotation? Please! Building a community instead of spreading animosity/resentment throughout the server? Pahlease! But I might not be able to loot my 9,000th trak tooth or 37th Tolan's BP, are you crazy! This is the logic you are arguing against. Just give up, it isn't changing. Just wait for Velious to come out and then maybe there will be enough content that the gaming heros of P99 will not be able to keep it all down. As has been written in previous posts, loot is not the reason, it's because they can. My IRL buddy the other day was just talking to me about how excited he was to do cleric epic, and how he needed to find a guild to do it with. I laughed at him and explained that his best bet was to pay for his epic because he wasn't getting it otherwise. Ya that's the Everquest i remember. Oh and before the reponse, let me save you some time: I am a newbie, loser, whiner, QQer, pussy, lazy POS who wants everything without working for it, never played endgame before anyways so shouldn't have an opinion, oh and I probably have slept with all my female relatives.

[Sirken]

Nice response bro. Do me a favor and look up reductive reasoning on the internet. FTE is fucking stupid, just like the title of this thread states. It makes raid mob engagements even more tied to rule lawyering and stupid bullshit than 15 on spawn did, and even that rule was not good.
do u even know what reductive reasoning means? yes, i'm guilty of trying to keep things simple. you think FTE is stupid? well i think rotations and 15 on a spawn is stupid. you clearly aren't involved in raid disputes, because you'd know that in the last couple months there have only been 3 situations where i was asked to check FTE. and only 2 of those situations resulted in staff having to remove items from one guild in order to give to the proper guild. as i have said a million times, FTE is not perfect, however, it is the best system in terms of what staff can verify, and what players can adhere to. when we have a better way of doing things, we will change the way they are done. until that time, this is a more than fair way of doing things (newsflash before you QQ at me, Fair does not mean Balanced).
Competition > Balance

I realize being a GM on a server with so many awful people probably gives you a pretty jaded outlook but honestly, just because it is minimal effort on your part doesn't mean it is a good policy for the long term. Sad truth is this server is a big deal to a lot of people. I think some serious reform is needed in the amount of GM's, their general policies, and the rulesets as a whole that the server abides by. How many have quit due to these "works fine" rulings that have been used to screw people over so many times?
i realize that you think you know absolutely everything that's going on, and that you feel you could do a better job than every staff member, past, present, and future. but the sad truth is that without knowing what tools and restrictions that exist and are available on our end, you really have no grounds to simply assume things are the way they are because i only want "minimal effort" on my part (as u so rudely implied without any proof to such a claim). if you think the staff can make everybody happy, then you have never tried to please a large group of people. we do what we can to please the majority, and we feel this works for the majority.


but Sirken... Common sense ain't common, it's an ultra rare drop
touche

[Tanthallas]

we do what we can to please the majority, and we feel this works for the majority.

You must have a strange definition of majority. The MAJORITY of the server does not even get to see end game content because shit dies within five minutes of its spawn.

[Frieza_Prexus]

FTE shouts/reset shout would still be incredibly convenient. You can get around the whole notion of abusing it by simply giving it NO authoritative weight whatsoever.

It'd simply be an informational mechanism and best case scenario, it helps the players solve their own problems. Worst case, the players still petition the same way they would have otherwise.

[India]

You must have a strange definition of majority. The MAJORITY of the server does not even get to see end game content because shit dies within five minutes of its spawn.

The MAJORITY of the server doesn't see end game content because they can't or don't want to compete. If they did, they would

[India]

It's the majority that do compete in end game content that I believe Sirken is referring to

[Asher]

It's the majority that do compete in end game content that I believe Sirken is referring to

and to be clear, by compete we mean:

Growing a guild to a zerg size, camping out at a raid target, having people track spawns, and then being on call for EQ to login when a target spawns?

That endgame EQ doesn't sound like fun to me.

With the GMs having no interest in changing anything to make the environment better for everyone we should all just get used to playing in TMOs sandbox, form your own zerg guild that does the above, or even easier, just join TMO.

Asher

[India]

... or even easier, just join TMO.

Asher


And that's the problem. People, in general, want easy. They don't want to have to put in any effort.

So cry, blame the GM's for not doing things to better the environment "for everyone", blame whomever the top guild is at the time,,, but for gods sake do not take any responsibility for your own actions, or lack thereof.