FTE is Fing stupid

[Zeelot]

Sorry, all apps are closed. :(

[Asher]

And that's the problem. People, in general, want easy. They don't want to have to put in any effort.

So cry, blame the GM's for not doing things to better the environment "for everyone", blame whomever the top guild is at the time,,, but for gods sake do not take any responsibility for your own actions, or lack thereof.

The thing you don't understand is that most people are not interested in your idea of competition. That is not fun to us.

We do not want to compete against other players, want we want compete against the environment.

I do take responsibility for my actions. I used to be in TMO and I left when EQ started to become my other job instead of something I did in my spare time.

There is nothing wrong with the population of the server letting the GMs and Devs know what they think of the current environment. They owe us nothing but I am sure they value feedback. I am willing to bet that for every person that complains there are another 10 that feel the same way.

I know I am leaving as soon as EQClassic is here assuming it ever makes it.

Asher

[Harazzer]

do u even know what reductive reasoning means? yes, i'm guilty of trying to keep things simple. you think FTE is stupid? well i think rotations and 15 on a spawn is stupid. you clearly aren't involved in raid disputes, because you'd know that in the last couple months there have only been 3 situations where i was asked to check FTE. and only 2 of those situations resulted in staff having to remove items from one guild in order to give to the proper guild. as i have said a million times, FTE is not perfect, however, it is the best system in terms of what staff can verify, and what players can adhere to. when we have a better way of doing things, we will change the way they are done. until that time, this is a more than fair way of doing things (newsflash before you QQ at me, Fair does not mean Balanced).
Competition > Balance

Yea actually I know exactly what it means, which is why I used it in my post. When you make blanket statements like "only 3 FTE Disputes ever" the implication is that since there are so few, it must be a good rule. Choosing to jump to a simplistic conclusion based on limited data. When in fact, since apparently this has to be spelled out, there are no more FTE petitions because no one else on the server wants to reduce themselves to the shitbag level of TMO. It may be the easiest solution, and yes, I do mostly believe this was chosen because of its high level of simplicity to the server staff as well as irrefutable "absolute" solution to any situation. That does not make it a good solution.

i realize that you think you know absolutely everything that's going on, and that you feel you could do a better job than every staff member, past, present, and future. but the sad truth is that without knowing what tools and restrictions that exist and are available on our end, you really have no grounds to simply assume things are the way they are because i only want "minimal effort" on my part (as u so rudely implied without any proof to such a claim). if you think the staff can make everybody happy, then you have never tried to please a large group of people. we do what we can to please the majority, and we feel this works for the majority.

I never said I know better than everyone, but your implication that I know nothing and you have already had every possible idea that I could ever have and dismiss me out of hand. All anyone not TMO in this thread has said is that FTE sucks, and every response you have is full of seething condescension and self-importance, like how dare these plebs question me?! Frankly I know you are an unpaid customer service rep.. but you do know that ultimately all your "power" here is bestowed in effort to help the server and encourage its growth and success. I don't think you can fix all the problems, however, the entire "not-TMO" population of the server thinks there needs to be some reform, and the staff and TMO forumtards are the only ones that argue against it. India, whoever the fuck that is, in a few responses here kinda implied that the "majority" was only applicable to "the raiding majority" in that case you could posture that TMO is like 90% of "the majority" and hence, this solution is a great one since they are fat happy loot babies. But by everyone else's standards it blows.

Honestly if you are going to say that you have no interest in bringing something more equitable than the current rule set to the server than you might as well take the gloves off and open up training and everything else and let a true competition begin. Everyone talks a good game about competition, let guerilla tactics enter the fray so the underdogs at least have a fighting chance of leveling the playing field. TMO has created a situation that makes competition nearly impossible and is supported by a rule system that perpetuates their grip on power and a staff that tells anyone that even asks about changing it to go fuck themselves.

[Nirgon]

I think Sirken made a great post and a bunch of people are aware of and really frustrated about the father son talk they just received.

[Heebo]

Yea actually I know exactly what it means, which is why I used it in my post. When you make blanket statements like "only 3 FTE Disputes ever" the implication is that since there are so few, it must be a good rule. Choosing to jump to a simplistic conclusion based on limited data. When in fact, since apparently this has to be spelled out, there are no more FTE petitions because no one else on the server wants to reduce themselves to the shitbag level of TMO. It may be the easiest solution, and yes, I do mostly believe this was chosen because of its high level of simplicity to the server staff as well as irrefutable "absolute" solution to any situation. That does not make it a good solution.



I never said I know better than everyone, but your implication that I know nothing and you have already had every possible idea that I could ever have and dismiss me out of hand. All anyone not TMO in this thread has said is that FTE sucks, and every response you have is full of seething condescension and self-importance, like how dare these plebs question me?! Frankly I know you are an unpaid customer service rep.. but you do know that ultimately all your "power" here is bestowed in effort to help the server and encourage its growth and success. I don't think you can fix all the problems, however, the entire "not-TMO" population of the server thinks there needs to be some reform, and the staff and TMO forumtards are the only ones that argue against it. India, whoever the fuck that is, in a few responses here kinda implied that the "majority" was only applicable to "the raiding majority" in that case you could posture that TMO is like 90% of "the majority" and hence, this solution is a great one since they are fat happy loot babies. But by everyone else's standards it blows.

Honestly if you are going to say that you have no interest in bringing something more equitable than the current rule set to the server than you might as well take the gloves off and open up training and everything else and let a true competition begin. Everyone talks a good game about competition, let guerilla tactics enter the fray so the underdogs at least have a fighting chance of leveling the playing field. TMO has created a situation that makes competition nearly impossible and is supported by a rule system that perpetuates their grip on power and a staff that tells anyone that even asks about changing it to go fuck themselves.
Your solution is to introduce training into the raid scene? You are so fucking dumb, not that it wouldn't be fun to blow up your 100 man juggs raids.

[arsenalpow]

i don't think training will fix anything (see: peak, veeshan's), but sominus sums up how a lot of people feel about the current situation

[India]

We do not want to compete against other players, want we want compete against the environment.



aka instancing

[YendorLootmonkey]

wait till that lvl 20 agros Trakanon with a SBI and kites him around while 40 people log in.

And how is that any different than the tricky stuff that already happens? It's not.

At least with the FTE shout, we'd know for sure that the FD monk behind the rock in Trak's lair stood up and got prox aggro with only 5 other guildmates in the zone before the other guild rushed in, and the non-FTE guild can back off and let them deal with it. If the monk clicks an SBI, so be it. The non-FTE guild had the opportunity to do the same thing.

Instead, what happens now, is the non-FTE raid force thinks they got FTE and kills the mob for the raid force that probably would have wiped due to early engage. That's the thing I would like to cut out of the equation by having the FTE shout - the ambiguity as to who should be applying DPS to the raid target.

It lets us know in advance what the GMs are going to see in the encounter logs later... I don't see how that can be abused.

[Heebo]

And how is that any different than the tricky stuff that already happens? It's not.

At least with the FTE shout, we'd know for sure that the FD monk behind the rock in Trak's lair stood up and got prox aggro with only 5 other guildmates in the zone before the other guild rushed in, and the non-FTE guild can back off and let them deal with it. If the monk clicks an SBI, so be it. The non-FTE guild had the opportunity to do the same thing.

Instead, what happens now, is the non-FTE raid force thinks they got FTE and kills the mob for the raid force that probably would have wiped due to early engage. That's the thing I would like to cut out of the equation by having the FTE shout - the ambiguity as to who should be applying DPS to the raid target.

It lets us know in advance what the GMs are going to see in the encounter logs later... I don't see how that can be abused.
The situations you describe wouldn't really change (if you can't see a dragon attacking a cleric for 10 seconds, you're probably not perceptive enough to see a FTE shout anyway) but for situations like VS where two guilds have forces on the spawn point, I absolutely agree. It would be better than GMs digging through logs to see who the mob thought about attacking first.

[Harazzer]

Your solution is to introduce training into the raid scene? You are so fucking dumb, not that it wouldn't be fun to blow up your 100 man juggs raids.

Yea i clearly said that was my solution. Reading comprehension ftw. My point, for the mildly retarded out there, was that if there is no interest in changing the rules to a rotation or a better rule set, there might as well be no rules because it just becomes one more thing that TMO uses to their advantage.

[quido]

I don't see why it's so hard to take some targets from us. Our game is pretty loose quite often now.

[Autotune]

I don't see why it's so hard to take some targets from us. Our game is pretty loose quite often now.

it's not free.

[Harazzer]

it's not free.

Tmo gets every mob uncontested, is that free?

[Autotune]

Tmo gets every mob uncontested, is that free?

Yeah and with recruitment closed, other guilds now have to pay the toll. Should have put in the time/effort that TMO (the old TMO) did to get where they are.

Luckily, you still can!

[jeffd]

We need people on red sir, no FTE bullshit here!

[kbnexus]

and to be clear, by compete we mean:

Growing a guild to a zerg size, camping out at a raid target, having people track spawns, and then being on call for EQ to login when a target spawns?

That endgame EQ doesn't sound like fun to me.



Asher

ok

[kbnexus]

Tmo gets every mob uncontested, is that free?

Trakanon was left up for about 3 hrs today. where were you?

[kbnexus]

Yea actually I know exactly what it means, which is why I used it in my post. When you make blanket statements like "only 3 FTE Disputes ever" the implication is that since there are so few, it must be a good rule. Choosing to jump to a simplistic conclusion based on limited data. When in fact, since apparently this has to be spelled out, there are no more FTE petitions because no one else on the server wants to reduce themselves to the shitbag level of TMO. It may be the easiest solution, and yes, I do mostly believe this was chosen because of its high level of simplicity to the server staff as well as irrefutable "absolute" solution to any situation. That does not make it a good solution.



I never said I know better than everyone, but your implication that I know nothing and you have already had every possible idea that I could ever have and dismiss me out of hand. All anyone not TMO in this thread has said is that FTE sucks, and every response you have is full of seething condescension and self-importance, like how dare these plebs question me?! Frankly I know you are an unpaid customer service rep.. but you do know that ultimately all your "power" here is bestowed in effort to help the server and encourage its growth and success. I don't think you can fix all the problems, however, the entire "not-TMO" population of the server thinks there needs to be some reform, and the staff and TMO forumtards are the only ones that argue against it. India, whoever the fuck that is, in a few responses here kinda implied that the "majority" was only applicable to "the raiding majority" in that case you could posture that TMO is like 90% of "the majority" and hence, this solution is a great one since they are fat happy loot babies. But by everyone else's standards it blows.

Honestly if you are going to say that you have no interest in bringing something more equitable than the current rule set to the server than you might as well take the gloves off and open up training and everything else and let a true competition begin. Everyone talks a good game about competition, let guerilla tactics enter the fray so the underdogs at least have a fighting chance of leveling the playing field. TMO has created a situation that makes competition nearly impossible and is supported by a rule system that perpetuates their grip on power and a staff that tells anyone that even asks about changing it to go fuck themselves.

It doesn't matter what system they put in TMO will still win, and you will still complain.

If you are talking equality. TMO gets kills equal to their effort. This is a very fair system you guys are just too lazy, and to dependent on hand outs.

[Tanthallas]

It doesn't matter what system they put in TMO will still win, and you will still complain.

If you are talking equality. TMO gets kills equal to their effort. This is a very fair system you guys are just too lazy, and to dependent on hand outs.

....

[Thatguy05]

It doesn't matter what system they put in TMO will still win, and you will still complain.

If you are talking equality. TMO gets kills equal to their effort. This is a very fair system you guys are just too lazy, and to dependent on hand outs.

No lie, no lie, no lieeee. Real *****s say word, ye aint ever told kno lie. I jus doit for the *****s tryna kill a mil dragonz b4 they die. Wattup.

[Zenlina]

Comon Velious, patch it in already...

Still probably be the same with TMO tagging all the bosses, but at least you can farm tier (SS,Kael,Thur,Pog) armor and gems outside of boss targets.

[Tarathiel]

variance is the real problem here, not saying to remove it completely but what about altering it a bit in the favor of mobs spawning more frequently instead of less. i can understand its value as it stands when classic naggy/vox and inny/ct were the only real raid targets, but now it seems like overkill. the server is very top heavy, more raid targets seems like a better solution than less.

more target opportunities = more fun for everyone

[Daliant17447]

Implement instanced raid content so that everyone can have fun and not just TMO!

http://www.project1999.org/forums/image.php?u=14343&dateline=1346110663http://www.project1999.org/forums/image.php?u=14343&dateline=1346110663http://www.project1999.org/forums/image.php?u=14343&dateline=1346110663http://www.project1999.org/forums/image.php?u=14343&dateline=1346110663http://www.project1999.org/forums/image.php?u=14343&dateline=1346110663http://www.project1999.org/forums/image.php?u=14343&dateline=1346110663http://www.project1999.org/forums/image.php?u=14343&dateline=1346110663http://www.project1999.org/forums/image.php?u=14343&dateline=1346110663

[Autotune]

variance is the real problem here, not saying to remove it completely but what about altering it a bit in the favor of mobs spawning more frequently instead of less. i can understand its value as it stands when classic naggy/vox and inny/ct were the only real raid targets, but now it seems like overkill. the server is very top heavy, more raid targets seems like a better solution than less.

more target opportunities = more fun for everyone

Just need to get rid of non-classic variance, it's not needed anymore.

[Asher]

aka instancing

This might be surprising to you but there were servers that shared spawns prior to instancing being in EQ and their community got along just fine.

Instancing was probably implemented because of guilds like TMO.

Asher

[Autotune]

This might be surprising to you but there were servers that shared spawns prior to instancing being in EQ and their community got along just fine.

Instancing was probably implemented because of guilds like TMO.

Asher

no, instancing was implemented because of guilds like VD, BDA, and so forth. I seriously doubt guilds like TMO cared about or wanted instancing.

Guilds like TMO, after all, would just fight for spawns, not sit and cry on forum boards about not getting the same rewards as other guilds without putting forth even half the effort.

[Nirgon]

Just need to get rid of non-classic variance, it's not needed anymore.

[quido]

I'd like to see the windows cut in half at least.

[Daldolma]

It doesn't matter what system they put in TMO will still win, and you will still complain.

If you are talking equality. TMO gets kills equal to their effort. This is a very fair system you guys are just too lazy, and to dependent on hand outs.

A different system might disincentivize the massive zerg force that TMO currently possesses. Don't take it as an insult -- that's what the current rules dictate. Under the current system of ridiculous variance, having a massive guild that can guarantee 25 able bodies at any time of any day is far more important than things like skill or mobility. TMO has adjusted accordingly.

If the server were to return to classic variances, TMO might find it far less valuable to accept every willing applicant with a pulse. In other words, it might make more sense to have a smaller raid force with an easier path to loot. That could a) cause TMO to split, or b) simply stagnate their recruitment. Either way, it would open the door to other guilds seeking to compete.

I hope you're honest enough with yourself to understand that the current raid system has nothing to do with game-play. TMO isn't the top dog because they've got the best players or raiders. They might, but that's not why they're dominating the end-game. They dominate end-game because they're the only guild with a) enough "dedicated" members to track the major raid targets 24/7, and b) enough "dedicated" members to log in at any hour of any day. That's it and that's all, and that is NOT classic.

Anyway, the point is that assuming a different system would still result in TMO domination is silly. Almost any other system would decrease TMO's level of domination, since TMO is built to thrive in the current system and is doing it at peak level. A classic system, for instance, would badly damage TMO's dominance. They'd still be #1, but they'd end up losing a lot more mobs.

[Autotune]

A different system might disincentivize the massive zerg force that TMO currently possesses. Don't take it as an insult -- that's what the current rules dictate. Under the current system of ridiculous variance, having a massive guild that can guarantee 25 able bodies at any time of any day is far more important than things like skill or mobility. TMO has adjusted accordingly.

If the server were to return to classic variances, TMO might find it far less valuable to accept every willing applicant with a pulse. In other words, it might make more sense to have a smaller raid force with an easier path to loot. That could a) cause TMO to split, or b) simply stagnate their recruitment. Either way, it would open the door to other guilds seeking to compete.

I hope you're honest enough with yourself to understand that the current raid system has nothing to do with game-play. TMO isn't the top dog because they've got the best players or raiders. They might, but that's not why they're dominating the end-game. They dominate end-game because they're the only guild with a) enough "dedicated" members to track the major raid targets 24/7, and b) enough "dedicated" members to log in at any hour of any day. That's it and that's all, and that is NOT classic.

Anyway, the point is that assuming a different system would still result in TMO domination is silly. Almost any other system would decrease TMO's level of domination, since TMO is built to thrive in the current system and is doing it at peak level. A classic system, for instance, would badly damage TMO's dominance. They'd still be #1, but they'd end up losing a lot more mobs.

TMO closed recruiting already, soooo.... yeah.

Also, having a large guild (zerg) with no variance (more classic system) is still an advantage. Ever seen TMO mobilize and kill 2-3 raid targets at once? I have (even while other guilds mobilized)

Unless you're referring to a rotation (classic system) then you can't very well lose mobs can you? because they're all given to you freely.

[Daldolma]

TMO closed recruiting already, soooo.... yeah.

Also, having a large guild (zerg) with no variance (more classic system) is still an advantage. Ever seen TMO mobilize and kill 2-3 raid targets at once? I have (even while other guilds mobilized)

Unless you're referring to a rotation (classic system) then you can't very well lose mobs can you? because they're all given to you freely.

TMO closing recruiting at present doesn't mean anything. They already have the numbers; as soon as they don't need them or competition hikes up, they'll open recruiting. The point is that with a different system, they may be enticed to close recruiting and not re-open even despite competition.

And yes, having a large guild with no variance would still be an advantage in some respects. But having a large guild with no variance means you're left hoping for FTE with 3 other guilds. Sure, with more people, your odds might be marginally better of getting FTE. But you also have to share loot with a lot more people. I also don't think multiple targets at once is going to be an issue big enough to warrant massive guild size. That will be an exception, not the rule. In a system like that, smaller numbers make a lot more sense.

I mean ultimately, absorbing and merging into a mega-guild that can dominate everything makes sense until you can't get everything. The fix for P99 is a system that ensures one guild can't get enough to make it worth it.

I doubt even TMO likes being alone at the top. The server would be a lot better off with a competitive system that ensures parity.

[kbnexus]

TMO closing recruiting at present doesn't mean anything. They already have the numbers; as soon as they don't need them or competition hikes up, they'll open recruiting. The point is that with a different system, they may be enticed to close recruiting and not re-open even despite competition.

And yes, having a large guild with no variance would still be an advantage in some respects. But having a large guild with no variance means you're left hoping for FTE with 3 other guilds. Sure, with more people, your odds might be marginally better of getting FTE. But you also have to share loot with a lot more people. I also don't think multiple targets at once is going to be an issue big enough to warrant massive guild size. That will be an exception, not the rule. In a system like that, smaller numbers make a lot more sense.

I mean ultimately, absorbing and merging into a mega-guild that can dominate everything makes sense until you can't get everything. The fix for P99 is a system that ensures one guild can't get enough to make it worth it.

I doubt even TMO likes being alone at the top. The server would be a lot better off with a competitive system that ensures parity.

Obviously we would just split into another guild and compete with ourselves, since we are the only ones qualified or capable anyways.

[Heebo]

Just need to get rid of non-classic variance, it's not needed anymore.

[Nirgon]

TMO
TMO TMO TMO

TMO TMO's TMO

TMO's

[sulious]

Just need to get rid of non-classic variance, it's not needed anymore.

I like this or at least cuting variance way- way down. I am sure trackers would welcome it.

[Diggles]

http://i.imgur.com/tyUEK.png

LEGIT PVP LETS GO

[Daldolma]

Obviously we would just split into another guild and compete with ourselves, since we are the only ones qualified or capable anyways.

Weak troll but playing along, if that were the case, that would be good for the server overall. At least there'd be competition.