Rules clarification

[Frieza_Prexus]

Unfortunately it did set a precedent where it's probably going to be a common thing now unless Nilbog's new rules prove to be a good fix for everyone

This has, for better or for worse, been a long established precedent. Whenever a highly contested mob enters late into its window, both raids will show up in force. 15 manning a spawn is a very risky maneuver. It tires out your raiders, it's boring, and you might be unprepared when the mob does spawn. Generally, when a mob is 15 manned there are less than 4 hours on the window OR it is simply a tactic to log the other guild off.

In the case at hand, it seems the latter purpose was accomplished.

There's really no good solution for what happens when a window begins to close. That said, IB and TMO reached an agreement where 15 manning was illegal and both guilds abided by it. Perhaps that could be explored here.

[norova]

This has, for better or for worse, been a long established precedent. Whenever a highly contested mob enters late into its window, both raids will show up in force. 15 manning a spawn is a very risky maneuver. It tires out your raiders, it's boring, and you might be unprepared when the mob does spawn. Generally, when a mob is 15 manned there are less than 4 hours on the window OR it is simply a tactic to log the other guild off.

In the case at hand, it seems the latter purpose was accomplished.

There's really no good solution for what happens when a window begins to close. That said, IB and TMO reached an agreement where 15 manning was illegal and both guilds abided by it. Perhaps that could be explored here.

Take your logic and get out of here!

[Rais]

The only thing I got out of this is that some former dude named Neicht is cybering someone who is almost 40 years older than him. What is the story here Morning Glory?

Anything else I miss in this?

[lilyanna]

The only thing I got out of this is that some former dude named Neicht is cybering someone who is almost 40 years older than him. What is the story here Morning Glory?

Anything else I miss in this?

Lol !

[Ravager]

Raiding what for 7 or 8 months? TMO cleaned house the months after IB and VD left. I was still around Dec-Feb, TMO had little to no competition the following few months and gave free mobs for people to kill for 2-3weeks somewhere around then. Looks like it started getting used again when people started socking against each other.

So yeah, It might not have been used because there was no need for it to be used. No one was socking against TMO, who 15mans for no reason?

You new guys are annoying as hell and literally know nothing.

2 of those months was socking Trak against TMO in VD. I didn't see the 15 man rule used there. Don't remember seeing you there either (I might not remember right though).

[jpeute]

omg 265 replys to say TMO got the last Trak?? wtb non-crying competition...

[bylbob]

omg 265 replys to say TMO got the last Trak?? wtb non-crying competition...

Weren't you banned for going full retard?

[Xanthias]

2 of those months was socking Trak against TMO in VD. I didn't see the 15 man rule used there. Don't remember seeing you there either (I might not remember right though).

The reason it wasn't used Ravager was, VD/IB/TR/TMO all camped out at ledge, therefore we had to log in before engage.

We didn't sit 40+ people at Tola waiting for him to pop.

That's the issue, if BDA had camped chars out, would have been fine, TMO would have stayed out and would have been fun time to see who got organized and engaged first.

However, when you see a raid kill force sitting there logged in (late in window), something doesn't seem right and matters need to be addressed.

Was what was done legal? Yep.
Was it annoying? Oh hell yes.
Did TMO want to do it? Not really.

If a guild wants to sock a mob, they need to do it on the spawn.
Why you ask?
Because there has to be an inherent danger to the guild in order to make them really think about if they want to do it.

Personally I'd like to see an arrangement worked out where both sides can be moderately pleased with the agreement.

But hey I remember EQ is a game and games are supposed to be fun.

[jpeute]

i dont know, who banned me? u can see tortue in game (/all vesshan) all the day

[jpeute]

The only thing I got out of this is that some former dude named Neicht is cybering someone who is almost 40 years older than him. What is the story here Morning Glory?

Anything else I miss in this?

i'm also trying to cyber lily, but lily makes too much cup of tea for me...wtb moooooooooore :p

[lilyanna]

i'm also trying to cyber lily, but lily makes too much cup of tea for me...wtb moooooooooore :p

He didn't mean me !! Lol and I'm not in my 60's thanks Tortue !!

[Ravager]

The reason it wasn't used Ravager was, VD/IB/TR/TMO all camped out at ledge, therefore we had to log in before engage.

We didn't sit 40+ people at Tola waiting for him to pop.

That's the issue, if BDA had camped chars out, would have been fine, TMO would have stayed out and would have been fun time to see who got organized and engaged first.

However, when you see a raid kill force sitting there logged in (late in window), something doesn't seem right and matters need to be addressed.

Was what was done legal? Yep.
Was it annoying? Oh hell yes.
Did TMO want to do it? Not really.

If a guild wants to sock a mob, they need to do it on the spawn.
Why you ask?
Because there has to be an inherent danger to the guild in order to make them really think about if they want to do it.

Personally I'd like to see an arrangement worked out where both sides can be moderately pleased with the agreement.

But hey I remember EQ is a game and games are supposed to be fun.

I do appreciate the thoughtful and respectful reply.

[apio]

do yourselves a favor and join us on EQMac, let the TMO Tards rule over an empty server just like the Nihilum Tards do on Red99

[Rais]

i'm also trying to cyber lily, but lily makes too much cup of tea for me...wtb moooooooooore :p

I can confirm she doesn't have the body parts of a retiree, so it's not her I'm speaking of.

[lilyanna]

I can confirm she doesn't have the body parts of a retiree, so it's not her I'm speaking of.

Oh funny !

[Loke]

pretty dumb rule if you ask me, i doubt 15 of even the best geared people could kill trak

The 15 person part of the rule is just the minimum they will consider a raid. While no one is killing Trak with 15, putting an actual number on how many it would take is impossible (if you can do it with "X" raiders, you can probably do it with "X-1" as you get more efficient). So not only is it hard to define how many people would constitute a sufficient force to begin with, but that number also changes over time as guilds get better at encounters.

As for the rule itself, I thought it was kind of dumb too. They originally made it because back when DA and IB were going at it, at first it was just a race to mobs. For some reason there was some sort of server outcry for a reform of the raiding scene, I don't think either IB or DA were really pushing any agenda, I think it was more non-raiders trying to open up the raiding scene a bit. Anyway, it resulted in a claim system where the first raid of 15 in zone had claim. Because IB out mobilized DA, DA started just afking their raid force in zones with mobs due. IB started doing the same and crying about it a lot (honestly, it wasn't that bad - hell, DA gave DKP bonuses for just AFKing in a zone, it was kind of sweet actually). That resulted in the 15 players within aggro range - which was ironic considering IB's goal was to end poopsocking and that rule made it 10x worse.

Basically what I'm trying to get at with my p99 history lesson is that the rules now were created in response to specific issues that arose in the past. There is a good chance people who actually care about getting mobs these days might benefit from taking another look at how the rules are working for the server now.

[ElanoraBryght]

Weren't you banned for going full retard?

There are no true bans on P99, just forced vacations of varied lengths.

[quido]

That's not really true.

[Harazzer]

That's not really true.

Truth is relative and everchanging, especially in this thread. Originally BDA just walked away from a contested spawn, as of 2 pages ago it had warped into BDA crying to GM's to save them from valid tactics, and autotune denouncing people for only raiding for the last 8 months when he probably hasn't raided in a year.

Such is RNF.

[Autotune]

Truth is relative and everchanging, especially in this thread. Originally BDA just walked away from a contested spawn, as of 2 pages ago it had warped into BDA crying to GM's to save them from valid tactics, and autotune denouncing people for only raiding for the last 8 months when he probably hasn't raided in a year.

Such is RNF.

I haven't raided in 3years.

[Harazzer]

Point being some people actually read the bullshit you spew and believe it comes from somewhere distantly related to truth or fact. At least until they read a few posts i guess.

[Autotune]

Point being some people actually read the bullshit you spew and believe it comes from somewhere distantly related to truth or fact. At least until they read a few posts i guess.

lol, you so dumb.

[Eccezan]

I resent this only because Divinity clearly holds that title.

As for the socking of Trak, I hardly see how this is meritocratic or conducive to healthy competition at all. This isn't a TMO or a BDA thing, all the guilds at the top have done it before, I'm just amazed no one sees the futility of it at this point. This is what new players to this server have to look forward to when they reach raid level.


According to my illustration, you are correct.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2zqt17k.jpg

[quido]

Hey I'm nice!

[Xanthias]

Hey I'm nice!

uh huh...

[Danyelle]

uh huh...

Xanthias confirmed nicer than Jeremy!

[Lazortag]

According to my illustration, you are correct.

http://i46.tinypic.com/2zqt17k.jpg

Whatever, I'm just happy to be on the graph.

[Cecily]

Xanthias confirmed nicer than Jeremy!
+1

[Daliant17447]

IB dot is misplaced, should be way lower on niceness and way higher on loot

[Grahm]

Shud be a new rule.........who ever calls out a raid mob with the LEAST amount of players gets dibs, but HAS to kill the mob with that amount of players.

TMO calls trak with 15....BDA can call it with 14 players...tmo can then lower there number to 13...etc etc

Shows the most skill IMO and lowers poop socking. Can track for 2 days for trak, have 40 man raid....as long as 10+ opposing guild shows up and call they want to go at it with 10-39 players and then first guild can either barter to there 38 players or let BDA try it with 10 and if they wipe first guild gets free raid mob. If they kill mob, then props to them for having the balls to do it with so little.

Should should be the "players rotation" instead of them actually agreeing on rotation for actual free mobs. cause no matter what fuck GM forced raid rules. (clearly other than KSing / training etc etc.)

[Xanthias]

Shud be a new rule.........who ever calls out a raid mob with the LEAST amount of players gets dibs, but HAS to kill the mob with that amount of players.

TMO calls trak with 15....BDA can call it with 14 players...tmo can then lower there number to 13...etc etc



Name that tune, raid mob style?

[Ravager]

This is kind of a fun idea. Maybe do the bidding like this but if guild 1 wipes, guild 2 has to attempt with their lowest bid.

[Ravager]

Probably not reasonable all the time, but might be a fun event.

[KentalCowtipper]

I agree this does sounds like it would actually be fun. Would only work if the lowest bidding #s guild wiped and the 2nd guild was forced to try with their lowest bid. If they wipe the 1st guild could try with +1 more than the last guild attempted with and so forth.

Although I don't see this happening as it most certainly favors TMO due to the overall gear discrepancy between our two guilds. I can see us downing Trak with 18 people of the right combination - 4 clerics, 2 tanks, 3 Bards, ranger to take trak touch first and 8 DPS - mbe 5 Melee dps and 3 nukers . I'd say its reasonable possible if there was a bard in every group we'd be able to resist 95% of the Aoes over time and down him with that many people.
(This is all me guessing.. the lowest I can remember doing him with is 25 or 26; I don't have the time to go through our attendance logs atm though).

Does anyone see BDA being able to down trak with 19?

Nonetheless it would be fun to try on a different mob other than the most contested mob in game (Trak). Maybe name that tune Tal or Sev style.

[Alarti0001]

I agree this does sounds like it would actually be fun. Would only work if the lowest bidding #s guild wiped and the 2nd guild was forced to try with their lowest bid. If they wipe the 1st guild could try with +1 more than the last guild attempted with and so forth.

Although I don't see this happening as it most certainly favors TMO due to the overall gear discrepancy between our two guilds. I can see us downing Trak with 18 people of the right combination - 4 clerics, 2 tanks, 3 Bards, ranger to take trak touch first and 8 DPS - mbe 5 Melee dps and 3 nukers . I'd say its reasonable possible if there was a bard in every group we'd be able to resist 95% of the Aoes over time and down him with that many people.
(This is all me guessing.. the lowest I can remember doing him with is 25 or 26; I don't have the time to go through our attendance logs atm though).

Does anyone see BDA being able to down trak with 19?

Nonetheless it would be fun to try on a different mob other than the most contested mob in game (Trak). Maybe name that tune Tal or Sev style.

We did him with like 21 pre epics and VP we could very likely do it with 15 now. Would be fun for the 15 who got to play and lame for the other 20 who had to sit out

[Frieza_Prexus]

The trick would be that any buffs must come from within the 15 man crew.

[Silentone]

The trick would be that any buffs must come from within the 15 man crew.

i like where this is going. would be worth messing with on any mob to be honest, seems fun.

[Verenity]

I agree this does sounds like it would actually be fun. Would only work if the lowest bidding #s guild wiped and the 2nd guild was forced to try with their lowest bid. If they wipe the 1st guild could try with +1 more than the last guild attempted with and so forth.

Although I don't see this happening as it most certainly favors TMO due to the overall gear discrepancy between our two guilds. I can see us downing Trak with 18 people of the right combination - 4 clerics, 2 tanks, 3 Bards, ranger to take trak touch first and 8 DPS - mbe 5 Melee dps and 3 nukers . I'd say its reasonable possible if there was a bard in every group we'd be able to resist 95% of the Aoes over time and down him with that many people.
(This is all me guessing.. the lowest I can remember doing him with is 25 or 26; I don't have the time to go through our attendance logs atm though).

Does anyone see BDA being able to down trak with 19?

Nonetheless it would be fun to try on a different mob other than the most contested mob in game (Trak). Maybe name that tune Tal or Sev style.

I'd venture to say that our core of most active raiders is better geared than you might think. The trick would be what Xasten suggested and having only buffs from those participating I'd say we -might- be able to take him with 18 given a similar raid composition you suggested: 4 clerics, 2 warriors, 3 bards, necro instead of ranger to take the first aoe and shroom + to DMF, shaman, 7 DPS including a mage. It would be pretty awesome to try out for sure.

[Supaskillz]

I like the concept of making the content the challenge rather than poopsocking, batphoning, or rules manipulation however I think large chunks of the guilds involved would feel very left out as they were not allowed to participate in the raid b/c they are not one of the top 18 geared players in their guild.

I agree with ravager that it would be fun if a gm wanted to take a raid mob a week to do this as an event rather than the status quo. For that matter a gm doesn't actually have to be involved. Guild leaders could perhaps agree to try this once a week on a mob mutually agreed upon.

I personally would want to modify the rules so that if the lowest bid wipes the next guild can add +2(or maybe 3) players to attempt. This adds a slightly greater punishment for over estimating your delta squad.

One could imagine other such challenges guilds could create with one another depending on the target. Could bid time to clear to fear and engage CT for example (obviously more detailed rules would be required, perhaps just require that CT is only mob left when engage). This is really a 1 shot game so you would want to be really careful to not bid less than you can handle. Could do silly things like each guild tries to get the most spiroc lords in 15 minutes they can and winner gets dojo. Obviously none of these things could be the status quo, but if guild leaders wanted to arrange such events I think they would be a blast.

[Xanthias]

I agree with ravager that it would be fun if a gm wanted to take a raid mob a week to do this as an event rather than the status quo. For that matter a gm doesn't actually have to be involved.

Might be fun to just have a GM spawn the mob with NO LOOT, that way would be pure bragging rights.
Could possible ease the feelings of those not chosen.

[Supaskillz]

Might be fun to just have a GM spawn the mob with NO LOOT, that way would be pure bragging rights.
Could possible ease the feelings of those not chosen.

still sounds awsome

[Frieza_Prexus]

Might be fun to just have a GM spawn the mob with NO LOOT, that way would be pure bragging rights.
Could possible ease the feelings of those not chosen.

I suggested something VERY similar to this last year (actually, exactly one year ago, hah) here:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=41874

Community outcry prevented this development.

[azeth]

I'm gonna honest, looking at you Alarti:

You're not starved for loot, that's for sure. Why aren't you currently attempting stuff like this? What better way to dispell the bullshit TMO hate mongering than to drop Trak etc with 15 people?

[azeth]

I AM GOING TO BE HONEST

[Supaskillz]

I still say these events could happen without gm involvement

[Xanthias]

I still say these events could happen without gm involvement

Only issue I see is this:
You want to do a BotB type event with your best players right?
Mob pops at 2:30am are your best going to be immediately on?

This way can think it through and go with what works.

[Gwence]

The # of people TMO needs to kill Trak just happens to be the same # of pancakes that Alarti inhales every morning..

56


coincidence? or something more..

[quido]

Extremely funny and poignant.

[Safon]

The # of people TMO needs to kill Trak just happens to be the same # of pancakes that Alarti inhales every morning..

56


coincidence? or something more..

Ugh, tell me you can do better

[Fountree]

Gwence remember that time VD/IB wiped to CT with 74 twice? Even after being GM rezzed? And then we steamrolled him with 36 and he dropped the server first wiz and necro epic? And then your raid leader ninja looted one of the pieces? And your guild dissolved in shame? Remember that? awesome times.

[Safon]

Gwence remember that time VD/IB wiped to CT with 74 twice? Even after being GM rezzed? And then we steamrolled him with 36 and he dropped the server first wiz and necro epic? And then your raid leader ninja looted one of the pieces? And your guild dissolved in shame? Remember that? awesome times.

Is this honestly 100 percent what happened. I doubt a guild would dissolve in shame after an incident like this

[Fountree]

100% what happened.

[Gwence]

sorry fountree I was busy playing my favorite MMO - Diablo 2... when all that took place.

[Silentone]

100% what happened.

[Safon]

Damn, that's quite shameful then. No wonder IB/VD fled to Eq Mac

[Gwence]

no what happen was Al'Kabor called out to us like a wet sorority chick at a frat party.

people left behind keep hoping that the less informed will eat up there pitiful stories, but all anyone need do is visit the server first thread

sorry bros, can only kill all the raid mobs so many times before its time to move on. In our case, most mobs were somewhere in the 200+ range lol.

[Gwence]

Damn, that's quite shameful then. No wonder IB/VD fled to Eq Mac

oh troll attempt going on, SAFON IS MAD HOW WILL WE EVER BE ABLE TO GO ON


aka go fuck yourself idiot troll

[quido]

It's funny how after SO MUCH TIME killing all this content, IB only lost interest once they started losing encounters. They used to be SO proud when they were the only credible force around claiming they were the only people capable of killing stuff. IB's pride was its undoing - if they'd learned to accept defeat with a little bit of grace, they might have been able to adapt and overcome.

For so long these guys claimed they were in it for the thrill of competition - not killing old content - but when some real competition arrived, they bailed.

[Relapse1]

you mean when TMO desynced the zone using known exploits causing CT to warp into walls zone loosing connection and crashing twice? TMO deliberately doing that for the past few CT encounters that the GM's even took notice? I do not blame Perun at all for what he did, i actually laughed about it and if i had to do that entire shit over again i would do it again. TMO used known exploits to wipe/ grief two guilds when they were beaten to the encounter TWICE. Fountree you are retarded if you think that you or your retarded fucking guild had ANYTHING to do with us moving to Eqmac.

[Fountree]

sorry bros, can only kill all the raid mobs so many times before its time to move on. In our case, most mobs were somewhere in the 200+ range lol.

Agree with u there for sure. BDA is hungry at the ledge atm...and I'm goin on a year campin out there lol :\

[Hagglebaron]

oh troll attempt going on, SAFON IS MAD HOW WILL WE EVER BE ABLE TO GO ON


aka go fuck yourself idiot troll

Holy fuck this guy is mad

[Gwence]

It's funny how after SO MUCH TIME killing all this content, IB only lost interest once they started losing encounters. They used to be SO proud when they were the only credible force around claiming they were the only people capable of killing stuff. IB's pride was its undoing - if they'd learned to accept defeat with a little bit of grace, they might have been able to adapt and overcome.

For so long these guys claimed they were in it for the thrill of competition - not killing old content - but when some real competition arrived, they bailed.

ya it's funny that's eqmac wasnt F2P until only recently.. it's like you don't put any coherant thought into your posts at all, otherwise you could've explained your own post here without ever having to post it.

[quido]

Relapsee demonstrates his ignorance once again! Yeah, we know Relapsee: any situation where your guild loses, it's someone else's fault.

Zone desync affected everybody negatively. We got lucky to not get screwed by it too badly that day. But heaven forbid that TMO get more server first epics than IB!! zomgz, let's rage ninjaloot

[Relapse1]

BDA is hungry at the ledge atm...and I'm goin on a year campin out there lol :\

LULZ

[Speedling]

Gwence remember that time VD/IB wiped to CT with 74 twice? Even after being GM rezzed? And then we steamrolled him with 36 and he dropped the server first wiz and necro epic? And then your raid leader ninja looted one of the pieces? And your guild dissolved in shame? Remember that? awesome times.

Hi Fountree, remember that time when you failed at pulling fay?

[quido]

Hi Fountree, remember that time when you failed at pulling fay?

Shit happens; I've failed at it too. At least our guild still exists and managed to swallow up all your belongings for a pittance of platinum.

[Relapse1]

http://theresistanceguild.com/?page_id=176

[quido]

Did you guys name yourselves after the Muse album? I sure hope not.

[h0tr0d (shaere)]

Stress without distress.

[Fazlazen]

Hi Fountree, remember that time when you failed at pulling fay?

Remember when TMO drove you off the server ?

[Fazlazen]

you mean when TMO desynced the zone using known exploits causing CT to warp into walls zone loosing connection and crashing twice? TMO deliberately doing that for the past few CT encounters that the GM's even took notice? I do not blame Perun at all for what he did, i actually laughed about it and if i had to do that entire shit over again i would do it again. TMO used known exploits to wipe/ grief two guilds when they were beaten to the encounter TWICE. Fountree you are retarded if you think that you or your retarded fucking guild had ANYTHING to do with us moving to Eqmac.

Quoted for the lulz...

[Relapse1]

welcome back Faglazen thought you were still suspended from the forums for so much rage

[Paumad]

I think we need a rnf sub section for p99 retirees and Eqmac persons with special needs.
A place where you all can "remember" and circle jerk happily without anyone looking or mocking the misfits.
We haven't forgotten you guys, but it's time to move on now...

[Greeedy]

Just dont lose those pixels Fauss....Wont have much of a guild then, will you.

[Autotune]

Only people that worry about pixels are the ones not getting them.

TMO gonna TMOwn

[Speedling]

Remember when TMO drove you off the server ?

TMO didn't drive me off the server.

D3 All day.

[Tiggles]

TMO didn't drive me off the server.

D3 All day.

....nah you got griefed off the server.

[apio]

do yourselves a favor and join us on EQMac, let the TMO Tards rule over an empty server just like the Nihilum Tards do on Red99

[ElanoraBryght]

Stress without distress.

/wave Shaere
Was great talking to you on EQMac last night.

[Maze513]

If only Active player could post on P99 forums.... this place would be so LAME lol Gonna put more links on D3 forums so we can get some REAL gamers in here

[Xanthias]

If only Active player could post on P99 forums.... this place would be so LAME lol Gonna put more links on D3 forums so we can get some REAL gamers in here

Would be interesting wouldn't it...