Trakanon Rotation

[ElanoraBryght]

Vesica Dei has been attempting for a week to begin talks towards re-establishing a Trakanon Rotation.

The proposed rotation would be a 3 spot rotation :
TMO
VD
Open

During the "open" spot, anyone besides TMO and VD would have whatever time window TMO and VD get for their own spots in the rotation (previously it's been 6 hours) to attempt a kill without needing to poopsock / race against us. Guilds could work together, or try alone, or an open raid could form for it.

While it's no secret that I'm also attempting to get another VP rotation established, the Trak rotation would not be tied to VP, Ragefire, or anything else. I just sincerely believe the current "competition" is being taken to ridiculous levels.

Zeelot has so far refused to have any discussion about it at all. I'm still open to talk to him of course, and hope he will eventually change his mind. And since he's determined to keep the door of private communication shut, I'm making the offer publicly.

Non-troll feedback and suggestions are welcome.

[Lanuven]

Vesica Dei has been attempting for a week to begin talks towards re-establishing a Trakanon Rotation.

The proposed rotation would be a 3 spot rotation :
TMO
VD
Open

During the "open" spot, anyone besides TMO and VD would have whatever time window TMO and VD get for their own spots in the rotation (previously it's been 6 hours) to attempt a kill without needing to poopsock / race against us. Guilds could work together, or try alone, or an open raid could form for it.

While it's no secret that I'm also attempting to get another VP rotation established, the Trak rotation would not be tied to VP, Ragefire, or anything else. I just sincerely believe the current "competition" is being taken to ridiculous levels.

Zeelot has so far refused to have any discussion about it at all. I'm still open to talk to him of course, and hope he will eventually change his mind. And since he's determined to keep the door of private communication shut, I'm making the offer publicly.

Non-troll feedback and suggestions are welcome.

bump, for people hopefully coming together to make this server fun again.

[Fountree]

I can't speak for Zee or our leadership, but frankly your guild's actions in the past week have most likely destroyed any chance of good relations with us, let alone a rotation.

[Lazortag]

I can smell my epic already.

[ElanoraBryght]

It was asked in another thread if there had been sincere attempts made by VD to discuss a VP rotation.

To my knowledge, VD did not approach TMO in a serious diplomatic fashion to discuss VP.


I've reached out to him several times.

[Sun Feb 26 18:42:44 2012] You told zeelot, 'would you like to discuss a rotation for Trak / VP tonight?'
[Sun Feb 26 18:43:04 2012] Zeelot tells you, 'No thanks'

[Tue Feb 28 00:31:56 2012] You told zeelot, 'would you like to talk about a rotation tonight?'
[Tue Feb 28 00:32:27 2012] Zeelot tells you, 'Well we're currently not interested in a rotation. We want to see how things play out for now'

[Wed Feb 29 03:04:41 2012] You told zeelot, 'hi :) would you like to talk about a Trak / VP rotaion tonight?'
(no answer)

[falkun]

Sadly Giegue, guts aren't dropping yet, or they haven't yet in all the trak's since the Epic patch.

Actually, at this point- TMO is more willing to rotate VP with Taken/BDA/Divinity than VD

Loly = TMO Officer; if TMO wants to do what their leadership says they want to do, they should agree to this.

It sucks that VD has had to get down in the mud with TMO to allow the rest of the server to get onto a rotation system, but if that's what it takes, then I'm glad we did it.

Let's get Taken/BDA/Divinity some trak's teeth so that they may join you in a rotation in VP!

And before you start thinking you can exclude VD from a rotation agreement, think about how a Trak rotation would go if VD made it alone with Taken/BDA/Divinity. Would TMO honestly not interfere?

[Raavak]

Making a private discussion public is the wrong way to go about it. You're asking for non-troll feedback, but that's really what you're asking for. Only the TMO guildleader can give you the feedback you are asking for.

And like Fountree said, blatant organized exploitation by your guild is not working in your favor.

[falkun]

Making a private discussion public is the wrong way to go about it. You're asking for non-troll feedback, but that's really what you're asking for. Only the TMO guildleader can give you the feedback you are asking for.

TMO rank and file has publicly stated they do not think VD has tried a diplomatic approach:

To my knowledge, VD did not approach TMO in a serious diplomatic fashion to discuss VP.

The only way to prove that we have is to make it public.

[Fazlazen]

where is the thrill in rotations ? Why do you play everquest ?

/yawn

[Fountree]

Lol at pinning this on us Deajay. Everyone knows who created this situation. Do you really think we were adverse to creating a better environment after IB left? Your actions need to change, not ours, in order to create the rotation system you want. Many people, including me, are impressed with VD lately and your ability to mobilize and kill dragons. But you guys are moving wayyyy too fast and then when you aren't getting an instant response that you want to hear you employ questionable tactics thinking you're going to terrorize us into coming to an agreement with you. That's the reality here, the whole server knows it, and spinning it any other way is just sad.

[Rusl]

Memblurring dragons = blatant organized exploitation? Then what do you call training another guild for hours on end in VP while your raid suspended and not allowed to engage those dragons anyway?

Payback is a bitch.

[Raavak]

where is the thrill in rotations ? Why do you play everquest ?/yawn
And this^

Its a game. A game without competition is as fun as a soccer match without a score.

[Fountree]

Lol @ rusl like we had no intention of killing those dragons when we got back. Apples and oranges my friend.

[falkun]

Do you really think we were adverse to creating a better environment after IB left?

Your version of a better environment:
http://i.imgur.com/1U1zM.jpg

I suppose it could be just a bunch of TMO clerics with absolutely nothing better to do than to troll VD. Nothing surprises me about TMO anymore, really.

^^ Note that is AFTER the Ragefire agreement was in place.

Now answer the question of the OP: Will TMO agree to a Trak rotation?

[Frieza_Prexus]

Rotations are generally created when it is in the rotating guild’s interests to do so. Very rarely, if ever, are they fully motivated by altruism. Each guild will zealously look out for its own interests as it should. TMO needs a lot of teeth still, and this is probably the biggest reason we’re not currently overly interested in a rotation. Notice that TMO only began rotating with IB when it was getting roughly half or slightly more of the Traks.

It’s decision theory. That said, eventually TMO would probably agree to a rotation when it appears in the guild’s interests. TMO is, overall, interested in being a reasonable and valuable portion of the community. But, the first responsibility is to the membership. While I appreciate the idea of an open slot on the rotation, accepting that when so many members still need teeth and other drops, would violate the duty the guild owes its members.

In regards to the quotes of Zeelot from Coldblooded, I meant to say in my original post that “I don’t think VD reached out BEFORE the training and such began a week or two ago.” I used the idea of “good faith” negotiation in my post. Please try to understand that, from TMO’s perspective, trying to negotiate right now in light of the VP activities is probably not going to feel like good faith. To TMO at least. That said, I’ll relegate that discussion to that thread.

EDIT: Ragefire was agreed to and respected. Yes, we had people in the lair. There was significant and heated debate within the guild, and the efforts to persuade others to respect the Ragefire rotation were immense and contentious. Please don't bring that us here as it will add nothing. TMO has decided to respect that. Please don't undo the difficult work it took to ensure that. Thank you.

To both TMO and VD in this thread, whatever we might feel is true and justified, or the right thing to say, let's use a bit of judgment before we say anything we KNOW will provoke the other side. Right or wrong, this is not the place to hash out our grievances.

[Swish]

Sharing is caring...easy to shoot the idea down.

[YendorLootmonkey]

If TMO are truly the self-proclaimed "good guys" of the server, then they would agree to a rotation on Trak that allows for BDA, Taken, and/or Divinity to have a shot at Trak, to improve the raid scene on the server for all. They would agree to a VP rotation so they could peacefully share the zone with the other guild capable of doing it.

Instead, they're goading us into trying a VP dragon so they can train the crap out of us. Bully tactics were responded to with force, and will continue to be responded to in force. Our goal is not to kill a VP dragon. Our goal is to deny you your precious pixels and force you to waste time poopsocking Trak until you finally concede that these mobs aren't yours to distribute rights to as you see fit as the bullies of the server. Until then, you're getting your own medicine force-fed back to you until you realize sharing is a more effective use of everyone's time.

There's still plenty of competition on the other mobs to float your boat. But Taken/Div/BDA deserve a shot at Trak, too.

[quido]

VD thinks they can drop a couple of mobs when they have some good momentum and pressure us into a rotation. Nope.

The blatant fact of the matter is you still haven't really proven yourself in the raid game. You're proving this at a faster rate outside of that silly 3-way rotation we had, but overall, you haven't really perpetuated stiff competition long enough to be considered for easy rotation slots.

How do you know when you've proven yourself enduring and competent enough in the raid game to justify a rotation? You've proven this when we agree it is kind of pointless to continue to compete against you, when it's really just like a roll of the dice - no sooner. Right now most of us are thrilled to compete =) because you kinda suck

Let's see if you can perpetuate victory over a number of months, not a number of days or a single day. Then we'll maybe talk about it.

If anyone's getting mob welfare it's gonna be Taken and BDA, not VD. You may as well stop with the annoying transparent pressure - it is not going to happen.

[Fountree]

Clarifying Yendor's definition of "responded to in force" = CHing other guilds dragons with memblur for 6+ hours a night, every night for a week. With no intention of killing said dragon.

I don't think our "bully tactics" involved exploits. Actually we were just protecting dragons that we would later kill (any guild would do this). Bullying seems much more pertinent to VD's actions at the present.

[Metallikus]

Rotations are generally created when it is in the rotating guild’s interests to do so. Very rarely, if ever, are they fully motivated by altruism. Each guild will zealously look out for its own interests as it should. TMO needs a lot of teeth still, and this is probably the biggest reason we’re not currently overly interested in a rotation. Notice that TMO only began rotating with IB when it was getting roughly half or slightly more of the Traks.

It’s decision theory. That said, eventually TMO would probably agree to a rotation when it appears in the guild’s interests. TMO is, overall, interested in being a reasonable and valuable portion of the community. But, the first responsibility is to the membership. While I appreciate the idea of an open slot on the rotation, accepting that when so many members still need teeth and other drops, would violate the duty the guild owes its members.

In regards to the quotes of Zeelot from Coldblooded, I meant to say in my original post that “I don’t think VD reached out BEFORE the training and such began a week or two ago.” I used the idea of “good faith” negotiation in my post. Please try to understand that, from TMO’s perspective, trying to negotiate right now in light of the VP activities is probably not going to feel like good faith. To TMO at least. That said, I’ll relegate that discussion to that thread.

EDIT: Ragefire was agreed to and respected. Yes, we had people in the lair. There was significant and heated debate within the guild, and the efforts to persuade others to respect the Ragefire rotation were immense and contentious. Please don't bring that us here as it will add nothing. TMO has decided to respect that. Please don't undo the difficult work it took to ensure that. Thank you.

To both TMO and VD in this thread, whatever we might feel is true and justified, or the right thing to say, let's use a bit of judgment before we say anything we KNOW will provoke the other side. Right or wrong, this is not the place to hash out our grievances.

Good post. For the record, Zeelot has been approached by Coldblooded prior to their suspension and everyday since it was lifted concerning talking about a rotation.

It took IB / TMO a few hours of griefing each other to come to rotation agreement.

VD entered VP while TMO was suspended. They had secret knowledge their suspension was going to be lifted early. They raid interfered us out as it is allowed in VP. We have only returned the favor by raid interfering with them.
Trains became memblurs overtime because of its simplicity. To say one raid interference is better than another is absurd.

Raid interference is raid interference.

[falkun]

But Taken/Div/BDA deserve a shot at Trak, too.

It honestly sounds like some of TMO's leadership would like to provide them that opportunity but some other within their leadership would not.

Actually, at this point- TMO is more willing to rotate VP with Taken/BDA/Divinity than VD

Do you really think we were adverse to creating a better environment after IB left?

I hope the "good guys" of the server will live up to their name.

[Fountree]

Metallikus...you're telling us that in your mind, you equate training to protect dragons we would later kill with CHing another guilds dragons for no reason other than to grief? On multiple different occasions? If you are, then seriously LOL

Trains can be dealt with, Hoshkar being CH'd cannot. They are very different forms of raid interference. One is exploiting a broken mechanic, the other is not.

[falkun]

Stuff

Stay on topic. Will you (and your guild) "create a better environment now that IB left"?

[Splorf22]

I have to kinda laugh at TMO bitching about the memblur thing. As Metallikus says, it's simply more efficient to memblur the mobs than to send in 20 people with trains - raid interference is raid interference. I spent a LONG time arguing on the VD forums that we shouldn't randomly train you guys in VP, and I was really irritated at Bisch when he took it upon himself to do that. But when we went into VP while you guys were raid suspended and the first thing you guys do is start up the trains, talk a lot of trash about how you were going to enjoy corpse camping us, and in general be incredibly nasty . . . I just find it kind of hard to feel much sympathy here. If you guys had done something rational, like "since we're raid suspended, we'll let you guys have the 6 dragons that spawn that week in exchange for you letting us have 6 Trakanons after the week is over" I'm sure Coldblooded would have agreed and we would be on the road to good relations. The guild as a whole would never have supported training you guys in VP if you hadn't done that to us first. Basically I agree with Yendor: with IB gone you guys thought you could just bully the rest of the server, and instead you got punched in the mouth.

But my bigger problem with all this is I don't even feel like raiding any more. I just can't fathom guys like Jeremy and Fazlazen who enjoy the current raiding scene. I mean if we had simulated repops and the goal was to kill stuff the fastest and get the most targets I could understand. If we had PVP I could understand. But right now to "win" on P1999 you have to spend the most time tracking / at your computer ready to log in / having retarded FTE tactics like eye of zomm / making KS groups / training the other guild in plausibly deniable ways / etc. I guess it takes its own kind of skill, but I just don't find it enjoyable.

[Lanuven]

Sad thing is this rotation will never even be considered seriously as long as VD is pulling their crap membluring dragons that have already been engaged. FTE is FTE. Leave it alone if someone else is fighting it.

As far as that goes, why hasnt a GM intervened in this exploit ? This is clearly not classic and is still being used to grief other guilds ?

[Raavak]

Trains became memblurs overtime because of its simplicity.
I really can't believe people are openly supporting a game exploit in the server forum.

[Fazlazen]

I have to kinda laugh at TMO bitching about the memblur thing. As Metallikus says, it's simply more efficient to memblur the mobs than to send in 20 people with trains - raid interference is raid interference. I spent a LONG time arguing on the VD forums that we shouldn't randomly train you guys in VP, and I was really irritated at Bisch when he took it upon himself to do that. But when we went into VP while you guys were raid suspended and the first thing you guys do is start up the trains, talk a lot of trash about how you were going to enjoy corpse camping us, and in general be incredibly nasty . . . I just find it kind of hard to feel much sympathy here. If you guys had done something rational, like "since we're raid suspended, we'll let you guys have the 6 dragons that spawn that week in exchange for you letting us have 6 Trakanons after the week is over" I'm sure Coldblooded would have agreed and we would be on the road to good relations. The guild as a whole would never have supported training you guys in VP if you hadn't done that to us first. Basically I agree with Yendor: with IB gone you guys thought you could just bully the rest of the server, and instead you got punched in the mouth.

But my bigger problem with all this is I don't even feel like raiding any more. I just can't fathom guys like Jeremy and Fazlazen who enjoy the current raiding scene. I mean if we had simulated repops and the goal was to kill stuff the fastest and get the most targets I could understand. If we had PVP I could understand. But right now to "win" on P1999 you have to spend the most time tracking / at your computer ready to log in / having retarded FTE tactics like eye of zomm / making KS groups / training the other guild in plausibly deniable ways / etc. I guess it takes its own kind of skill, but I just don't find it enjoyable.

I enjoy the competitive nature of the game, I don't enjoy KSing/FTE bullshit, etc. I don't enjoy training either. I don't support rotations because I get no thrill from that.

I like straight up "legit" competing, no bullshit.

[Wotsirb401]

Metallikus...you're telling us that in your mind, you equate training to protect dragons we would later kill with CHing another guilds dragons for no reason other than to grief? On multiple different occasions? If you are, then seriously LOL

Trains can be dealt with, Hoshkar being CH'd cannot. They are very different forms of raid interference. One is exploiting a broken mechanic, the other is not.

The word "exploit" does not exist in VP. Haven't you read the many posts about there not being any rules in that zone. If there are no rules then anything is allowed.

If we took speed limits away, people would drive 150mph in school zones , I know I would

[YendorLootmonkey]

Sad thing is this rotation will never even be considered seriously as long as VD is pulling their crap membluring dragons that have already been engaged. FTE is FTE. Leave it alone if someone else is fighting it.

As far as that goes, why hasnt a GM intervened in this exploit ? This is clearly not classic and is still being used to grief other guilds ?

It could stop TODAY if TMO could stop playing server bully and agree to a rotation to make this server a better place to play for all. But, since you're greedy and want all the pixels to yourself, here we are.

Trak rotation: TMO, VD, open.

Or continue to be the bullies of the server and take what you've got coming to you.

[quido]

I scoff at the notion that VD is memblurring simply because it is easier than training. VD caught on to the fact that we are way better at preventing and derailing their pathetic trains than they are at creating them.

I'm not crying about the memblur for the most part, unlike most people, because we will give VD what's coming to them. But trying to claim "we COULD be training you instead" is ridiculous considering any time you actually concert a serious effort upon this task, you pretty much get run out of the zone.

I personally am in favor of giving VD a disruption-free hour or two to attempt Hoshkar. You'd have a much better chance at us considering a rotation if you pressed for something like that.

[Fazlazen]

Sad thing is this rotation will never even be considered seriously as long as VD is pulling their crap membluring dragons that have already been engaged. FTE is FTE. Leave it alone if someone else is fighting it.

As far as that goes, why hasnt a GM intervened in this exploit ? This is clearly not classic and is still being used to grief other guilds ?

What's sad about FTE is you have a guild engaging a mob, then the other one throws a javelin, or throws an arrow before the other guild has, the other guild kills the mob than the first guild and claims the mob. It's bullshit, it's the way IB/TR was doing things to bully the rest of the server for a long time when they had no real competition. It's the style of raiding IB has forced onto the server from the getgo.

I'd like the raiding scene to get away from that, but I still want to compete.

[quido]

I also think it's funny that you think we really mind not killing VP when you don't even attempt it. We'll get those dragons dead eventually =) I don't think you can do the same with the situation reversed.

Strategy: lock in a rotation before people realize how casual we really are.

Come prove that you are actually worthy. Cockblocking us in a single zone proves nothing except that you are crybabies. You want that which you don't deserve. Think you do deserve it? Prove it. And not just over a 3-day period or whatever.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I also think it's funny that you think we really mind not killing VP when you don't even attempt it. We'll get those dragons dead eventually =) I don't think you can do the same with the situation reversed.

Strategy: lock in a rotation before people realize how casual we really are.

Come prove that you are actually worthy. Cockblocking us in a single zone proves nothing except that you are crybabies. You want that which you don't deserve. Think you do deserve it? Prove it. And not just over a 3-day period or whatever.

Who gave TMO the authority to decide who deserves what?

We're punching a bully in the mouth. The crybabies are the ones that got punched in the mouth and ran to RNF to cry about it.

[falkun]

Come prove that you are actually worthy. Cockblocking us in a single zone proves nothing except that you are crybabies. You want that which you don't deserve. Think you do deserve it? Prove it. And not just over a 3-day period or whatever.

We are working on it. But its kind of difficult to prove something over the longer period you desire when that time hasn't elapsed yet. When you discover time travel, let me know.

As for the topic at hand, you've admitted you don't mind the current raid interference. If that works for you, then you will do fine without a rotation. (you = Jeremy)

To your members crying in RNF, the solution has been presented in this post. You also have members that have stated they want to better the server. If those truly are the goals of TMO, then you will agree to the rotation. If your first duties are to your members, then stop talking out of both sides of your mouth stating that you want to be a better role model for the server while also stating you are anti-rotation. The double speak is obvious. (you = TMO)

[quido]

Who gave TMO the authority to decide who deserves what?

We're punching a bully in the mouth. The crybabies are the ones that got punched in the mouth and ran to RNF to cry about it.

Let's see how you feel in a month when you've killed a pittance of targets overall. Then let's see how you feel two months after that, if you're even still competing then. That is the soonest I can see us even considering such a rotation.

We're not anti-rotation; we're anti VD's entitlement rotation. Know your place or prove that we are wrong. I don't think you have what it takes.

Seriously, you guys shouldn't even ask for a few months. It's pretty clear you just want to secure easy loot cruise control while you think you have a bargaining position, a bargaining position that will soon disappear.

[Maze513]

The word "exploit" does not exist in VP...

And for this reason alone I have been Duping Plats in VP, Im still working on the coding for Trak BPs... but soon my child soon, your looting are coming

[rordell]

Let's see how you feel in a month when you've killed a pittance of targets overall. Then let's see how you feel two months after that, if you're even still competing then. That is the soonest I can see us even considering such a rotation.

We're not anti-rotation; we're anti VD's entitlement rotation. Know your place or prove that we are wrong. I don't think you have what it takes.

Seriously, you guys shouldn't even ask for a few months. It's pretty clear you just want to secure easy loot cruise control while you think you have a bargaining position, a bargaining position that will soon disappear.

that's the part they...
1- don't understand
2- won't admit

[Splorf22]

What's sad about FTE is you have a guild engaging a mob, then the other one throws a javelin, or throws an arrow before the other guild has, the other guild kills the mob than the first guild and claims the mob. It's bullshit, it's the way IB/TR was doing things to bully the rest of the server for a long time when they had no real competition. It's the style of raiding IB has forced onto the server from the getgo.

I'd like the raiding scene to get away from that, but I still want to compete.

Compete how? Are you simultaneously winning a polesitting competition while you play everquest? :D Perhaps you could also set a record for longest consecutive time on a Ferris wheel with a wireless connection. Again, if you read Jeremy's posts it seems that he enjoys this stuff.

I just don't think EQ the game was designed to have two groups of players in the same dungeon trying to kill the same boss at the same time.

[Splorf22]

that's the part they...
1- don't understand
2- won't admit

The part I don't understand is how you guys can care this much about a video game.

[Sirken]

heh, rotations.

i generally don't comment on blue server issues. but i have a question for you guys;

EQ is a competitive mmo based around the downing of mobs. downing the mob provides a sense of accomplishment provided only because of the competition from other guilds for those same contested mobs. i seriously doubt any of you feel like you did big things by downing a mob that is 12 years old, and has "how to kill" strats posted everywhere on the web, all the while there is absolutely no competition for the mob it self.

and so my question is this; if u remove the competition to downing a mob, what sense of accomplishment does killing the mob give you?

[Fazlazen]

heh, rotations.

i generally don't comment on blue server issues. but i have a question for you guys;

EQ is a competitive mmo based around the downing of mobs. downing the mob provides a sense of accomplishment provided only because of the competition from other guilds for those same contested mobs. i seriously doubt any of you feel like you did big things by downing a mob that is 12 years old, and has "how to kill" strats posted everywhere on the web, all the while there is absolutely no competition for the mob it self.

and so my question is this; if u remove the competition to downing a mob, what sense of accomplishment does killing the mob give you?

AMEN, my point exactly.

[iNteg]

Blah blah blah.

[Metallikus]

Trakanon scorecard for February:

VD: 5
IB: 3
TMO: 3

TMO has 1 legit VP kill contested from what they say (IB was there to thwart, VD stayed out of VP because of respect that we did not have enough keyed to compete back then.)

TMO VP dragon kills besides that one have been completely uncontested.

VD entered VP to kill a dragon while IB and TMO were serving suspensions. TMO entered VP to grief while suspended. VD left, no big deal. The next day we find out TMO had been secretly unsuspended and that you killed VP dragons uncontested. IB says enough BS is enough and splits. VD has prevented TMO from accomplishing anything in VP since then.

The fact is, when contested, its hard for anyone to kill a dragon in a non CSR zone.

Uncontested, VD can kill every dragon in VP. Contested, none.
Uncontested, TMO can kill every dragon in VP. Contested by IB, one. Contested by VD, none.

[Splorf22]

One last thing so I can complete the dreaded triple post. I'm a pretty casual guy. I feel less and less like even logging in to the raid scene right now. But in general Vesica Dei has morphed into a serious raid guild. I'm just eyeballing our raid attendance tracker, but we have ~45 people in the black, i.e. 35% raid attendance, and we just got about 10 more people from IB. We have over 50 people with Veeshan's Peak keys now. For better or worse, VD is not a casual raid guild any more.

[Ele]

Sad thing is this rotation will never even be considered seriously as long as VD is pulling their crap membluring dragons that have already been engaged. FTE is FTE. Leave it alone if someone else is fighting it.

As far as that goes, why hasnt a GM intervened in this exploit ? This is clearly not classic and is still being used to grief other guilds ?

.

I'm impressed with the capability that VD has shown, as a raid force, in the last few months on their own, but suddenly becoming the #2 guild on the server due to a departure of one of the top raiding guilds does not automatically entitle a guild to a rotation. I understand that VD has accomplished all of the raids outside of VP on their own and from being aligned with TR/IB, as a joint raid force. I do not doubt VD would be #2 now even without the prior alliance. VD has legitimately gathered forces faster and beaten TMO to several targets or happened to be in the right place at the right time, just like TMO and IB in the past, when multiple targets pop in quick succession. Such is raiding life on a non-instanced, variance-timer server.

Rotations come about when two guilds legitimately are capable of engaging and downing a raid target/zone and the time/energy investment becomes too much to keep the heightened state of competition sustained indefinitely, ala camping at Trakanon ledge every 3 days.

Without proving to the server or themselves that VD is capable of killing a dragon in VP through legitimate competition or even simply asking "hey we have x number of keys and we would like to try a VP dragon please give us one shot uncontested to see if we can stand up to it and maybe we can talk later about a rotation". From the previous posts above, VD essentially demands(ed) a VP rotation be installed with no grounds on which to base their ability to handle such a target besides having acquired x number of VP keys. When met with the lack of the response VD desired, VD set forth and implemented a plan to massively grief and bully the opposing guild into accepting a rotation by way of using at best a disreputable tactic, or most likely what will be deemed an exploit/broken game mechanic. (I'm not commenting one way or the other about the Talendor incident, I was not at that particular raid and only know that the GMs have since said that all past raid petitions that were unanswered were dismissed and everyone to move forward and start fresh.)

There are several VD members in this thread that have asked what TMO will do to make the server a better place, when they should be asking that question of themselves before asking anyone else.

VD had a chance to set a new tone for the raid scene of P99 with the upsetting of the end game balance by the departure of IB, but instead has resorted to "if I beat you up enough, then you'll like me attitude". Two weeks ago when the top two guilds at the time were on vacation, VD instead of sharing dragons and bosses, like they now request, went and claimed all of them for themselves and in the process upsetting the other 3 raiding guilds through potentially questionable raid situations.

If you want respect, you first need to give respect.

[falkun]

heh, rotations.

i generally don't comment on blue server issues. but i have a question for you guys;

EQ is a competitive mmo based around the downing of mobs. downing the mob provides a sense of accomplishment provided only because of the competition from other guilds for those same contested mobs. i seriously doubt any of you feel like you did big things by downing a mob that is 12 years old, and has "how to kill" strats posted everywhere on the web, all the while there is absolutely no competition for the mob it self.

and so my question is this; if u remove the competition to downing a mob, what sense of accomplishment does killing the mob give you?

For me, its the fact that I didn't do it on Live. If I wanted a PVP game, I wouldn't come back to a notoriously PVE game.

With that said, the competition is fun, especially on some mobs. I thoroughly enjoy fighting TMO for CT when the zone fully repops. Gore last week was also enjoyable. However, VP is an entirely different animal. The training that is prevented in other zones by server rules are freely allowed in VP. If VP was managed with the same PVE rules that exist for the rest of the server, I'd be fine with competition. But griefing and competition are not the same in my opinion. If you grief, expect to be griefed, but I'll respond to competition with competition.

[Frieza_Prexus]

To your members crying in RNF, the solution has been presented in this post. You also have members that have stated they want to better the server. If those truly are the goals of TMO, then you will agree to the rotation. If your first duties are to your members, then stop talking out of both sides of your mouth stating that you want to be a better role model for the server while also stating you are anti-rotation.

Rotations work in some instances. Others, not so much. Otherwise, everything would be on rotation. I came from a server that had this exact situation, and it ended poorly to say the least (if anyone here is from Prexus I'd be happy to discuss this via PM if you really feel the need, but not here. I've made my point). Somethings are morally commendable, but not morally obligatory. It seems to me that some are insinuating that we have an affirmative duty to rotate. Ragefire is on rotation for obvious reasons. It is a clickfest nightmare. VP was rotated for obvious reasons. Trak, the same.

All 3 rotated targets were done because the guilds involved felt it was worth a rotation to save the headache and time involved in socking/downing those targets. Make no mistake, these targets are mostly rotated because it is economically efficient for it to be done. Sure, being "good guys" can play into it. However, a guild's first duty is to its members. Most players enjoy fair competition, and rotations deny that to an extent. Some enjoy rotated content. It looks like we're at an impasse. How to proceed? That's a difficult question, but I suspect the answer lies in what the majority on the raid scene want, and that appears to be fair and open competition.

I suspect that if VD came out and said, OK no blurring mobs, (maybe) no training, we just want a chance to fight for the mobs in VP FTE, that TMO would respect that. Note, I did not say, TMO would give UP the mobs, but we'd respect that I think.

Once it becomes apparent that VD is capable of downing VP dragons with roughly 50% regularity, I suspect a rotation would be established in fairly short order. I suspect most players on BOTH sides would be completely willing to just set everything aside and say: here are some good rules, let's work it out.

VD obviously wants a rotation right now because it's better than what they have. TMO does not, because it is worse than what they have. Right or wrong, justified or not, TMO obviously sees the blurring as flat out malicious. I'm sure VD, in turn, sees some of TMO's actions in the same light.

When people are super pissed off at each other, logical & efficient negotiations tend to (spoiler): not happen.

TMO and VD both have duties to their members. Those duties come first. Instead of forcing the square peg into a round hole, let's make the duties of both guilds align. Let's compete fairly (according to whatever rules are established between us) and when VD takes the dragons with regular frequency, I'm sure TMO would be more than willing to sit down.

[Maze513]

I dont always use Macro Quest
But when I do
I use it in VP
http://www.eurorscg4d.com/images/news/most_interesting_man_sml.jpg

[Ele]

Who gave TMO the authority to decide who deserves what?

We're punching a bully in the mouth. The crybabies are the ones that got punched in the mouth and ran to RNF to cry about it.

What gave VD the right to demand a rotation on dragons they haven't even attempted, much less killed? I don't doubt your abilities, but the means you are using to go about securing a rotation are dubious and unjustified.

[Alkorin]

What gave VD the right to demand a rotation on dragons they haven't even attempted, much less killed? I don't doubt your abilities, but the means you are using to go about securing a rotation are dubious and unjustified.

They say above that they can kill every dragon in VP if uncontested. Why not give them the chance?

Let them put their money where their mouths are. If they fail to clear VP within some time frame, they should agree to leave you all alone while you do so, until they are capable of competing.

[Maze513]

ok VD its easy... 2 dragon are up TMO engages one.... VD kills other... OMG new found respect.. Hay Juu guys wanna share? lol Ta fucking Da.. and Next time CB make this post in the Raiding Guild forums.... makes a lil more sense if U wanna be a raiding guild

[Fazlazen]

For me, its the fact that I didn't do it on Live. If I wanted a PVP game, I wouldn't come back to a notoriously PVE game.

With that said, the competition is fun, especially on some mobs. I thoroughly enjoy fighting TMO for CT when the zone fully repops. Gore last week was also enjoyable. However, VP is an entirely different animal. The training that is prevented in other zones by server rules are freely allowed in VP. If VP was managed with the same PVE rules that exist for the rest of the server, I'd be fine with competition. But griefing and competition are not the same in my opinion. If you grief, expect to be griefed, but I'll respond to competition with competition.

Whats to say VP can't be "TRAIN FREE" ?

[Metallikus]

They say above that they can kill every dragon in VP if uncontested. Why not give them the chance?

Let them put their money where their mouths are. If they fail to clear VP within some time frame, they should agree to leave you all alone while you do so, until they are capable of competing.

TMO / IB did not compete for their first VP dragon kills. GM intervention gave them 3 dragons each on release. They fought for a min after that, but then decided to rotate instead. What gives TMO the right to deny VD a chance at the same pie? Instead they chose to compete by raid interfering while on suspension, so VD returns the favor by competing with raid interference now. All of a sudden they can't kill mobs in VP, so raid interference shouldn't be allowed.

[Sirken]

For me, its the fact that I didn't do it on Live. If I wanted a PVP game, I wouldn't come back to a notoriously PVE game.

With that said, the competition is fun, especially on some mobs. I thoroughly enjoy fighting TMO for CT when the zone fully repops. Gore last week was also enjoyable. However, VP is an entirely different animal. The training that is prevented in other zones by server rules are freely allowed in VP. If VP was managed with the same PVE rules that exist for the rest of the server, I'd be fine with competition. But griefing and competition are not the same in my opinion. If you grief, expect to be griefed, but I'll respond to competition with competition.

a notoriously COMPETITIVE pve game. you are right in that VP is an entirely different animal insofar as that training and griefing were allowed, and as such, VP is not an acceptable zone to use as an example of comparison, because as u said, the rule set is unique in that single zone. but in the rest of the world, the rules still apply. and i never once suggested pvp, so i dunno where that comment of yours originated from.

but lets stick to Trak as the thread is titled, you say you will answer grief with grief and competition with competition. but in regards to trak, it sounds like (at least to me) some people want to respond to competition by not competing and instead just having mobs handed to them.

and my point is that there's no challenge in the actual killing of mobs. it's the other rival guilds that make the encounter challenging.

<3

[Ele]

The word "exploit" does not exist in VP. Haven't you read the many posts about there not being any rules in that zone. If there are no rules then anything is allowed.

100% wrong.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=489619&postcount=1

Let's take a look at that again.

Quote:
Zones deemed Non-Disputable will have no CSR interaction on raid disputes. We will not respond to or take any action on raid disputes involving these zones. Currently the only zone that this applies to is Veeshan's Peak.

Quote:
no CSR interaction on raid disputes. We will not respond to or take any action on raid disputes involving these zones.

Quote:
raid disputes
Ninja looting is not a raid dispute. It is an individual basis. If a mob is killed in a non-disputable zone, the group (and thus raid/guild) that is merited the kill has rights to the loot. If they don't grant you permission to loot the corpse, you are violating an individual server rule by ninja looting.

Pathetic honestly that you are resorting to that after losing a kill and crying about it.

If you have any more questions about this you can send me a PM.



If we took speed limits away, people would drive 150mph in school zones , I know I would

Then you are a reckless person that only cares about your self and ignores the well being of others.

[falkun]

O this is going to be fun!

Rotations come about when two guilds legitimately are capable of engaging and downing a raid target/zone and the time/energy investment becomes too much to keep the heightened state of competition sustained indefinitely, ala camping at Trakanon ledge every 3 days.

Like TMO is forcing VD to do right now (and vice versa?) The OP directly addresses this.

Without proving to the server or themselves that VD is capable of killing a dragon in VP through legitimate competition or even simply asking "hey we have x number of keys and we would like to try a VP dragon please give us one shot uncontested to see if we can stand up to it and maybe we can talk later about a rotation".

Cold has been asking for a VP rotation for some time. Zeelot has been stonewalling her. If she would get a better response by asking for a single shot, I'm sure we will take that avenue to "prove" ourselves as many of your members insist.


There are several VD members in this thread that have asked what TMO will do to make the server a better place, when they should be asking that question of themselves before asking anyone else.

VD forced an open Ragefire agreement that TMO nearly ignored (after agreeing to it). TMO wanted a rotation when they were suspended, but then dropped the topic immediately after their raid suspension was dropped early. VD even submitted an updated Ragefire bug report when the bug fix was found to not be implemented the way it should have been.


VD had a chance to set a new tone for the raid scene of P99 with the upsetting of the end game balance by the departure of IB, but instead has resorted to "if I beat you up enough, then you'll like me attitude".

While you were raid suspended, TMO could have stayed out of VP. However, they griefed VD in VP even when they were not allowed to kill the dragons themselves. If you wanted to change the tone of the raid scene, you would have not interfered when you could not have gained anything from the interference anyways. You griefed VD purely out of hatred.


Two weeks ago when the top two guilds at the time were on vacation, VD instead of sharing dragons and bosses, like they now request, went and claimed all of them for themselves and in the process upsetting the other 3 raiding guilds through potentially questionable raid situations.

VD zoned their Gorenaire puller when it appeared a question of FTE might arise. Taken was in Skyfire for an hour and a half before VD showed up to compete against them for Talendor. Even after we showed up, VD did not pull Talendor until after Taken had wiped. VD also watched as TMO mages CoH'ed Taken/BDA/Divinity (I can't remember which guild(s)) down into the lair to compete against us for Trak. Please point me to any examples of raid disputes that arose from VD during the week TMO/IB were not competition.

If you want respect, you first need to give respect.

Pot, meet kettle.

[quido]

I personally think full rotations are boring.

I'd have a lot more support for a system that was 50% FFA and 50% rotation, especially if the rotation portion somehow included the other guilds looking to get some action. But even such a possibility is a ways off.

Vesica Dei, I invite you to put yourself in our shoes; we were once in yours. Try to take an honest account of the situation, and bear that account in mind when you come making requests and proposals. We are far from pushovers.

In the words of the great Maultriss - "I will not be a doormat!"

[falkun]

a notoriously COMPETITIVE pve game.

but lets stick to Trak as the thread is titled, you say you will answer grief with grief and competition with competition. but in regards to trak, it sounds like (at least to me) some people want to respond to competition by not competing and instead just having mobs handed to them.

and my point is that there's no challenge in the actual killing of mobs. it's the other rival guilds that make the encounter challenging.

If that's what TMO decides, then VD will be on poop mountain as they have been since the Trak agreement excluded them at the beginning of January. We have been competing against them for Trak and are on the upper hand of that fight, looking at Metallikus' numbers. I'd prefer not to have to camp out there, but if that's what it takes, I'll be there.

[Fountree]

Just admit that you want to be casual and rotate because you want loot but you can't or don't want to put the effort in to prove it to us legitimately.

[Nizzarr]

lol blue server
oh dang, this isnt in rnf already. my bad

[Fazlazen]

I suspect that if VD came out and said, OK no blurring mobs, (maybe) no training, we just want a chance to fight for the mobs in VP FTE, that TMO would respect that. Note, I did not say, TMO would give UP the mobs, but we'd respect that I think.

Once it becomes apparent that VD is capable of downing VP dragons with roughly 50% regularity, I suspect a rotation would be established in fairly short order. I suspect most players on BOTH sides would be completely willing to just set everything aside and say: here are some good rules, let's work it out.



Sums it up, no freebie.

Metallikus, you've said it yourself, you've competed well in the last month getting more Trakanon than any other guild on the server.

Everquest is a highly competitive game, there is no fun in just steamrolling mobs, the fun is in actually beating your competition to the mob.

I invite you guys to come and compete with TMO in VP, no trains, FTE rules. Whoever gets the pull gets the mob.

[Fazlazen]

lol blue server
oh dang, this isnt in rnf already. my bad

How about you PL my god damn monk !!

[Maze513]

I invite you guys to come and compete with TMO in VP, no trains, FTE rules. Whoever gets the pull gets the mob.

VD too thick headed for this...

[falkun]

Just admit that you want to be casual and rotate because you want loot but you can't or don't want to put the effort in to prove it to us legitimately.

I'm a bard. I have a selo's drum, I couldn't care less about loot. What is a Selo's BP going to give me that I wouldn't want a Sarnak Emblazoned Tabard for? I just want to see the game that I missed when I played Live.

But please, keep saying I am doing this for the loot. That Claw of Phara Dar is going to help my DPS immensely!

[quido]

I invite you guys to come and compete with TMO in VP, no trains, FTE rules. Whoever gets the pull gets the mob.

This is the most worthwhile suggestion I've heard from anyone so far.

[Extunarian]

heh, rotations.

i generally don't comment on blue server issues. but i have a question for you guys;

EQ is a competitive mmo based around the downing of mobs. downing the mob provides a sense of accomplishment provided only because of the competition from other guilds for those same contested mobs. i seriously doubt any of you feel like you did big things by downing a mob that is 12 years old, and has "how to kill" strats posted everywhere on the web, all the while there is absolutely no competition for the mob it self.

and so my question is this; if u remove the competition to downing a mob, what sense of accomplishment does killing the mob give you?

I like the races to the kunark outdoor dragons, draco, CT, vox and naggy. They aren't poopsocked for the most part. I agree with you that I wouldn't want those rotated.

I hate when VS, Trak or Inny are late in window because they are poopsocked to all hell. As a casual player who doesn't have the luxury of logging in whenever I feel like it, I dread when these mobs are late in their windows because it means when I get a chance to log in I either sit at a spawn, do something else and feel guilty that I'm not supporting the guild that has supported me, or just don't log in at all.

Anyway, I make it a point not to participate in these discussions and I'm trying to sound guild-neutral. I just wanted to point out that your assumptions about racing and accomplishment being better than rotating breaks down when the actual racing is removed from the equation. At least for me.

[Ele]

I invite you guys to come and compete with TMO in VP, no trains, no memblurs, FTE rules. Whoever gets the pull gets the mob.

FTFY

[Alkorin]

TMO / IB did not compete for their first VP dragon kills. GM intervention gave them 3 dragons each on release. They fought for a min after that, but then decided to rotate instead. What gives TMO the right to deny VD a chance at the same pie? Instead they chose to compete by raid interfering while on suspension, so VD returns the favor by competing with raid interference now. All of a sudden they can't kill mobs in VP, so raid interference shouldn't be allowed.

Can you read?

I'm suggesting that TMO give VD a chance to fully clear VP within a certain time frame. If you guys can't do the job without interference, what right do you have to even be in there ruining it for others?

Be reasonable?

[Silentone]

Dont worry since VP is now a exploit free dungeon, we are dupping characters and dragons, no more issue's with memblur...drive thru..

[Lanuven]

a notoriously COMPETITIVE pve game. you are right in that VP is an entirely different animal insofar as that training and griefing were allowed, and as such, VP is not an acceptable zone to use as an example of comparison, because as u said, the rule set is unique in that single zone. but in the rest of the world, the rules still apply. and i never once suggested pvp, so i dunno where that comment of yours originated from.

but lets stick to Trak as the thread is titled, you say you will answer grief with grief and competition with competition. but in regards to trak, it sounds like (at least to me) some people want to respond to competition by not competing and instead just having mobs handed to them.

and my point is that there's no challenge in the actual killing of mobs. it's the other rival guilds that make the encounter challenging.

<3

Being handed a mob is very different from being allowed to have a chance to kill it. This game is old and allot of people here have already done this before on live. id say other than VD and TMO , all the other guilds on teh server do not want to, or will not poopsock trak. How are guilds that could possibly be able to kill him, that dont want to sit on ledge for 3 days just to get involved in the FTE, gm log reading, handing out loot based on her decision, ever gonna get a shot ? Why not let those guilds have a chance when its their turn and if they fail, they fail.

No ones asking for handouts, just a legitimate attempt. We are not our former 13 year old eqlive versions of ourselfs and have jobs and families to take care of now, rather than be on dragon watch for 24 hours a day. Those guilds who already have and are killing said targets should not be so greedy and make the server as a whole, fun for everyone.

[Metallikus]

Sums it up, no freebie.

Metallikus, you've said it yourself, you've competed well in the last month getting more Trakanon than any other guild on the server.

Everquest is a highly competitive game, there is no fun in just steamrolling mobs, the fun is in actually beating your competition to the mob.

I invite you guys to come and compete with TMO in VP, no trains, FTE rules. Whoever gets the pull gets the mob.

The fact is we would easily agree to this with an honorable guild. TMO simply cannot be trusted to uphold an honor agreement not to train.

Most recently they sent an untagged alt named Painfull to eye pull guardian wurms on a group of VD outside of VP in skyfire.
They camped a raid and started a DT cycle in fear to grief/slow down our raid in progress and then trained us directly after to grief/slow down our raid.
They think they can get away with that BS because they have a GM in place that will not respond to petitions and deletes them months later. Thats why IB left the server.
I would be willing to set my disgust about all that aside if TMO were willing to act honorably in competitive raiding going forward. Can they?

[Metallikus]

Can you read?

I'm suggseting that TMO give VD a chance to fully clear VP within a certain time frame. If you guys can't do the job without interference, what right do you have to even be in there ruining it for others?

Be reasonable?

VD has no problem with this. Set it up.

[Alkorin]

I don't play anymore. Don't look at me. It's just a suggestion that I think would be interesting to watch.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Most recently they sent an untagged alt named Painfull to eye pull guardian wurms on a group of VD outside of VP in skyfire.

That was him acting on his own. He's paid for that. It was wrong on every level, and a number of us told him not to do it. Myself included.

They think they can get away with that BS because they have a GM in place that will not respond to petitions and deletes them months later. Thats why IB left the server.

Why don't we lay off both guides? yes, the GM staff has obviously made mistakes, but overall I find them fair and mostly evenhanded when I consider the facts at their disposal from their point of view. Amelinda used her judgement in response to our submitted brief regarding our suspension. The same way the Ambrotos effectively said in the bug forum that it's not really his call to create a new rule regarding the blurring unless he's given new marching orders.

Yeah, they're going to screw up and should be accountable, but let's tone down the hyperbole leveled at them. I assure you, neither guild has sat down and thought "I'll just get the GM to rule for me even though I know I'm acting in the wrong."

[Xanthias]

I find it amusing this thread comes after TMO beat VD to Trak last night...
I wonder if it would have been made had they won.

[username1337]

If one has no other sense of achievement then pixels on an 13 year old emulated game start looking mighty fine. People in TMO need that sense of achievement and they'll do anything it takes to secure it.

[Alkorin]

In before RnF, since that's where this seems to be going. I still think my suggestion's a good one, though.

What say you, TMO?

[Raavak]

It's only a game if you win but if you lose it's a stinking waste of time.

-Al Bundy

[Fazlazen]

The fact is we would easily agree to this with an honorable guild. TMO simply cannot be trusted to uphold an honor agreement not to train.

Most recently they sent an untagged alt named Painfull to eye pull guardian wurms on a group of VD outside of VP in skyfire.
They camped a raid and started a DT cycle in fear to grief/slow down our raid in progress and then trained us directly after to grief/slow down our raid.
They think they can get away with that BS because they have a GM in place that will not respond to petitions and deletes them months later. Thats why IB left the server.
I would be willing to set my disgust about all that aside if TMO were willing to act honorably in competitive raiding going forward. Can they?

Painfull acted on his own behalf, noone had a clue he was doing this in the guild. He has been suspended for it for 1 week by the server GMs, on his main character as well as on his alt. He deserved it.

If you are talking about yesterday on CT, we did not start any DT cycle when you were engaging CT. As a matter of fact, you can't start a DT cycle when CT is engaged, the golems and Draco don't DT once a DT cycle is already started. Only CT DTs on engage, the 4 other mobs only start a cycle, which can't be restarted once already active. I'm not sure what you are talking about as I was leading the TMO raid and no DT were set off.

No trains were done on TMO's part last night in Plane of fear. There are trains that come left and right in this zone because of the huge aggro range, it is more often than not unintentional and has been for the whole raid last night. Both guilds train in those circumstances, without any malicious intent. You had your fair shot at CT, you wiped. Move on.

I come back to my previous statement:

I invite you guys to come and compete with TMO in VP, no trains, no memblur, FTE rules. Whoever gets the pull gets the mob.

[Gringo]

First it was IB, now its VD's fault. Starting to think the real shit bags here are TMO.

THIS!

[Sirken]

Being handed a mob is very different from being allowed to have a chance to kill it.
with all due respect, if killing the mob is not a sure thing, meaning that there is only a chance that a guild can actually down the mob, then that guild doesn't deserve or warrant a rotation for that mob.

How are guilds that could possibly be able to kill him, that dont want to sit on ledge for 3 days just to get involved in the FTE, gm log reading, handing out loot based on her decision, ever gonna get a shot ? Why not let those guilds have a chance when its their turn and if they fail, they fail.
those guilds get a shot the same way that TMO got a shot when IB was running the end game scene. you get a bunch of determined members and you just do it a couple times. you will get some, they will get some. and thats it. Every guild DOES have a chance, but having a chance doesn't mean getting the mob handed to u on a silver platter.

No ones asking for handouts, just a legitimate attempt. We are not our former 13 year old eqlive versions of ourselfs and have jobs and families to take care of now, rather than be on dragon watch for 24 hours a day. Those guilds who already have and are killing said targets should not be so greedy and make the server as a whole, fun for everyone.
you have to EARN your legitimate attempt, or its a handout, regardless of how u sugar coat it. nobody here is their former 13 year ago self, and yet dragons and gods still get downed and have been getting downed for quite some time.
Some players will always have more free time than other players, and EQ has always rewarded players that put in the most time/work on their character. i feel the entire rotation argument to be from the same trash arguments that ruined mmos with instanced zones, safe zones, easy travel etc.

just my 2cp

[Xanthias]

those guilds get a shot the same way that TMO got a shot when IB was running the end game scene. you get a bunch of determined members and you just do it a couple times. you will get some, they will get some. and thats it. Every guild DOES have a chance, but having a chance doesn't mean getting the mob handed to u on a silver platter.


^^^^^^

Careful Sirken you might be accused of being a TMO member, you are making sense and saying what we've said in the past

[CallnOutTheNubs]

End game raid scene on p99 blue is so childish no wonder this servers losing people.

Abunch of whiny bitches crying about 12year old content get a fucking life.

[Sirken]

^^^^^^

Careful Sirken you might be accused of being a TMO member, you are making sense and saying what we've said in the past

meh. i've been called worse things ;)

[Harrison]

First it was IB, now its VD's fault. Starting to think the real shit bags here are TMO.

You think I just fabricate things to hate on guilds about?

For being such a douchebag Doors, we agree on a lot.

[Raavak]

i feel the entire rotation argument to be from the same trash arguments that ruined mmos with instanced zones, safe zones, easy travel etc.

just my 2cp
A man after my own heart!

Competition in EQ puts the "C" in "Classic".

[Maze513]

come and compete with TMO in VP, no trains, no memblur, FTE rules. Whoever gets the pull gets the mob.

[Cyrano]

those guilds get a shot the same way that TMO got a shot when IB was running the end game scene. you get a bunch of determined members and you just do it a couple times. you will get some, they will get some. and thats it. Every guild DOES have a chance, but having a chance doesn't mean getting the mob handed to u on a silver platter.

You mean use the old first 15 on spawn get camp rule? Or do you mean the one where you have an SK FD near the mob with a pet sitting on spawn point and then claim FTE?

IB is certainly guilty of escalating matters in the raid scene but DA/TMO are the OGs when it comes to rule lawyering. If that's your definition of determined I guess we have little to talk about.

[Gringo]

TMO wants to keep the faggotry up and VD wants to stop it that's my take on this.

[Alkorin]

Seems to me that people from both guilds want this to stop escalating, but the usual peanut gallery is intent on seeing it continue to blow up.

[Flunklesnarkin]

I like the idea of rotation... I just don't see it happening tho


nobody to keep a rotation enforced lol

[Metallikus]

I like the idea of rotation... I just don't see it happening tho


nobody to keep a rotation enforced lol

It is like when TMO agreed to a ragefire rotation. They got off suspension and couldn't wait to get into the lair and start crapping all over the rotation that your officer agreed to. If you can't enforce agreements in your own guild, how can you cooperate with the rest of the server?

[Fazlazen]

It is like when TMO agreed to a ragefire rotation. They got off suspension and couldn't wait to get into the lair and start crapping all over the rotation that your officer agreed to. If you can't enforce agreements in your own guild, how can you cooperate with the rest of the server?

was the rotation agreement violated ?

[Metallikus]

was the rotation agreement violated ?

I'll agree that things were set straight eventually.

[Metallikus]

Painfull acted on his own behalf, noone had a clue he was doing this in the guild. He has been suspended for it for 1 week by the server GMs, on his main character as well as on his alt. He deserved it.

If you are talking about yesterday on CT, we did not start any DT cycle when you were engaging CT. As a matter of fact, you can't start a DT cycle when CT is engaged, the golems and Draco don't DT once a DT cycle is already started. Only CT DTs on engage, the 4 other mobs only start a cycle, which can't be restarted once already active. I'm not sure what you are talking about as I was leading the TMO raid and no DT were set off.

No trains were done on TMO's part last night in Plane of fear. There are trains that come left and right in this zone because of the huge aggro range, it is more often than not unintentional and has been for the whole raid last night. Both guilds train in those circumstances, without any malicious intent. You had your fair shot at CT, you wiped. Move on.

I come back to my previous statement:

I invite you guys to come and compete with TMO in VP, no trains, no memblur, FTE rules. Whoever gets the pull gets the mob.

TMO camped at north wall, a TMO monk then tagged draco to start the DT cycle on us while we were fighting mobs. TMO did not log back in to engage anything, which would violate the recent Amelinda ruling that starting a DT cycle with no intention to engage a raid mob but only to grief another guild is a suspension worthy infraction.

About the trains, I'll agree with you that it is possible it wasnt done with malicious intent.

[Writ3r]

You TMO guys are IDIOTS... you say you love these tactics and love competition yet are trying to change the subject on an agreement that would give you MORE COMPETITION if a Trak rotation were to be put in place. If you want to agree of (what sense of accomplishment is felt if said mobs aren't being contested) then why in the world are you not giving guilds trakanon to be able to "compete/contest" in VP?

For some reason this Trak ordeal turned into a VP argument so that is where i put the above focus. However, you all (whoever thinks they are of power in here) out there crying a river flooding the moat of Karnor's up in this thread are pathetic at best trying to act like you run/dictate this server. There are people out there who love the game and want nostalgia or see their friends get phat loots by downing these targets together. To try and define "satisfaction" of playing this game only how you see it is ludicrous and shows how self serving this environment has gotten and just how virtually the same you all are as the people in the past were. Who cares who you blame for creating this so called raid scene when now it lies in your hands to be able to change it you'd rather keep it as is instead... pretty much screams complete idiocy and as a cop out.

It is a surprise why anyone would want to even enter the end game just to come into contact with this type of elevated stupidity and ignorance. Also, whoever wants to quote this or comment on it... give me and other readers something intelligent otherwise you just prove my point by giving a troll response/snark comment that you indeed aren't worth wasting time on working with in-game or out for all of those involved in this game/thread.

[YendorLootmonkey]

come and compete with TMO in VP, no trains, no memblur, FTE rules. Whoever gets the pull gets the mob.

Once we see it in writing from Zeelot, we'll believe it. But this thread was about setting up a Trak rotation between TMO, VD, and BDA/Div/Taken. Hell, even if you wanted to do TMO and BDA/Div/Taken, and VD competes against TMO on their turn.

[Frieza_Prexus]

It is like when TMO agreed to a ragefire rotation. They got off suspension and couldn't wait to get into the lair and start crapping all over the rotation that your officer agreed to. If you can't enforce agreements in your own guild, how can you cooperate with the rest of the server?

TMO Agreed and abided by the rotation. Please do not stoke this fire. Yes, there were those who did not agree with it, and thankfully they put aside their reservations out of respect for the deal that was struck.

I ask again, please respect the fact that there was no violation, and do not undermine the efforts taken to ensure that the agreement stood.

[Raavak]

TMO did not log back in to engage anything, which would violate the recent Amelinda ruling that starting a DT cycle with no intention to engage a raid mob but only to grief another guild is a suspension worthy infraction.
It's pretty easy to get a DT cycle going off. Even just pulling junk seems like it eventually gets one going, through chain aggro or something. I never understood it. But then again, I was never the greatest puller :o

[lilyanna]

was the rotation agreement violated ?

The fallout from that was what caused Ninik to quit. She and I were sat there when TMO arrived and basically sat right in the faces of the VD cleric there and any other VD clerics that came across. TMO players consistently tried to open trade windows to prevent the pearl being handed in, standing in front of players and setting pets up also directly in front of the cleric next in the rotation. Im thankful this was not the actions of all TMO players and I certainly never tar anyone based on the actions of their guildies, however, those people there know how shitty their actions were and other guilds involved in the rotation also saw this.

That being said, the thread isnt about this, its about a fair rotation on Trak, one that includes not only TMO, VD but also other guilds. Lets get this sorted.

[quido]

Lets get this sorted.

No. It's too soon, sweetie.

[Loly Taa]

First off Cold, this thread is pathetic;

Why hasn't anyone mentioned this yet...

This VP training shit started BEFORE we were raid suspended and IB left the server. We were in VP one night and a crack team of VD showed up unannounced to attempt to prevent us from killing Silverwing.

There was no, "Hey, we want a rotation", fuck, IB and VD were still raiding together at that time. They did it just to be dicks. They had been "planning" on training their way into a rotation since the very beginning of February. They never had any intent of doing it diplomatically from the start, until we started to tell them to fuck off.

So you can spin it any way you want Cold, why didn't you train IB for a spot in the VP rotation? Why only us? Why the hell didn't you ask the guild you raided EVERYTHING with just to let you in to VP to collect some rots? Obviously the guild you were allied with didn't deem you worthy enough for VP loot, why would we without some proof?

It's because you were IB's puppet until they left the server, now you're the broodmother of the IB leftovers.

Letting members of a guild in without apping = absorbing that guild, you absorbed IB. If you think you can compete like they did then please do, but shove this holier than thou rotation shit right the fuck up your ass.

I feel bad for all the VD members that don't realize their "casual" raiding guild is right now being turned into the new IB, and if you wanna be the new IB? You'd damn better be able to compete like them.

[Fountree]

Oh shit ^ Loly just laid some serious smack down.

[Metallikus]

This VP training shit started BEFORE we were raid suspended and IB left the server. We were in VP one night and a crack team of VD showed up unannounced to attempt to prevent us from killing Silverwing.

a crack team: 1 person who entered the zone and did nothing?

[Tpand]

Just admit that you want to be casual and rotate because you want loot but you can't or don't want to put the effort in to prove it to us legitimately.

We do not have to prove anything to you.

[Loly Taa]

a crack team: 1 person who entered the zone and did nothing?

No, Bisch definitely attempted to train us that day but we killed Silverwing anyways, and you know just as well as I do that 1 VD in zone = 3+ outside buffing and providing rez boxes.

VD, can you not see what you've become? Are the pixels that shiny that you're blinded by them?

[Maultriss]

VD, can you not see what you've become? Are the pixels that shiny that you're blinded by them?

I could ask the same exact question of TMO.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Letting members of a guild in without apping = absorbing that guild, you absorbed IB. If you think you can compete like they did then please do, but shove this holier than thou rotation shit right the fuck up your ass

You guys have been CRYING about why IB and VD weren't merging. Now, for all intents and purposes, you FINALLY get what you were shedding tears about.

But somehow now that we're a merged guild, we don't take IB's place in the Trak rotation or the VP rotation. Quit moving the goal posts.

Let it be shown that TMO, the self-proclaimed "good guys" of the server are the ones that want to keep the raid scene shitty. We are proposing a Trak rotation that includes the casual guilds having a shot at Trak. Then you can have all the competition you want in VP, right? Because you love competition, I keep hearing.

Oh wait, you only like competition when its heavily skewed in your favor. Anything else makes you rage.

[Loly Taa]

I could ask the same exact question of TMO.

TMO became exactly what I intended it to be. A hardcore raiding guild.

The hypocrisy displayed not only by your members but your guild leader itself is staggering.

You did this to yourselves VD- you are currently the only guild on the server we dislike, and it will probably remain that way until you wake the fuck up.

I wish I woulda kept the screenshots of the tells I got from Miley when the Macroquest bans went down, complaining about how hard VD got hit and how many officers were suspended. Where have they been by the way? Did they leave the game when you were suspended for 3rd party programs Yendor? Again the hypocrisy is just fucking staggering. Bang up job keeping that secret too.

[Silentone]

You guys have been CRYING about why IB and VD weren't merging. Now, for all intents and purposes, you FINALLY get what you were shedding tears about.

But somehow now that we're a merged guild, we don't take IB's place in the Trak rotation or the VP rotation. Quit moving the goal posts.

Let it be shown that TMO, the self-proclaimed "good guys" of the server are the ones that want to keep the raid scene shitty. We are proposing a Trak rotation that includes the casual guilds having a shot at Trak. Then you can have all the competition you want in VP, right? Because you love competition, I keep hearing.

Oh wait, you only like competition when its heavily skewed in your favor. Anything else makes you rage.

Change the guild name to IB and we will consider a rotation. deal?

[rordell]

But somehow now that we're a merged guild, we don't take IB's place in the Trak rotation or the VP rotation. Quit moving the goal posts.

LOL!! 90% of what IB had that played consistently is gone, VD has scooped up a few of those that stayed, not even all of them, and you think adding those few to your clusterfuck ratpack of sub-60 fucktards puts you on our level and makes you equal to what old IB + VD was? You need to step having meth for breakfast son. This would be no different than VD coming out 3 months ago and say "but we added all of Reclamations' noobs, we're big boys now!! We deserve a spot in the rotation!!"

VD has not shown the ability to consistently compete FOR ANYTHING on their own while not swinging from IB's nutsack. Until you do just that, STFU and take what you're lucky to get that spawns in our off hours or while we're at another mob already in progress!!

[Metallikus]

TMO doesn't like their competition, breaking news at 5!

[Maultriss]

TMO became exactly what I intended it to be. A hardcore raiding guild.

The hypocrisy displayed not only by your members but your guild leader itself is staggering.

You did this to yourselves VD- you are currently the only guild on the server we dislike, and it will probably remain that way until you wake the fuck up.

We're wide awake. Even at 3am when you try to kill Hoshkar. We're awake. Training the pants off of you.

[quido]

Yendor, I'd be curious to hear from BDA and Taken what they think about your guild after last week.

ITT: Transparent self-serving generosity

[Banditfist]

Fountree: Previous MMO experience: Diablo 2

[Loly Taa]

We're wide awake. Even at 3am when you try to kill Hoshkar. We're awake. Training the pants off of you.

Maultriss, you never enter the zone except to rez the fallen- then you box right back out.

No wonder you don't realize that there hasn't been a single train the last god knows how many attempts because we simply outplayed you and took away anything that could be trained.

When memblur is fixed, your one little trick to prevent us from killing anything will be gone. When that happens we'll show you how well spent your time is at 3am attempting to "train" us.

That's why I can't forsee a rotation with VD. It's hard to negotiate with a bunch of arrogant asshats tied together with a thread of leadership. Half of you don't even know what the other half is doing.

[Autotune]

TMO > Taken/div > BDA

[username1337]

If TMO are truly the self-proclaimed "good guys" of the server, then they would agree to a rotation on Trak that allows for BDA, Taken, and/or Divinity to have a shot at Trak, to improve the raid scene on the server for all. They would agree to a VP rotation so they could peacefully share the zone with the other guild capable of doing it.

Instead, they're goading us into trying a VP dragon so they can train the crap out of us. Bully tactics were responded to with force, and will continue to be responded to in force. Our goal is not to kill a VP dragon. Our goal is to deny you your precious pixels and force you to waste time poopsocking Trak until you finally concede that these mobs aren't yours to distribute rights to as you see fit as the bullies of the server. Until then, you're getting your own medicine force-fed back to you until you realize sharing is a more effective use of everyone's time.

There's still plenty of competition on the other mobs to float your boat. But Taken/Div/BDA deserve a shot at Trak, too.

http://cdn.styleforum.net/5/5d/5dcbd53f_clap.gif

[Metallikus]

Yendor, I'd be curious to hear from BDA and Taken what they think about your guild after last week.

BDA and Taken have a chance to compete every day for dragons and gods. What made last week different than this week? TMO hasn't backed away from any raid targets to BDA/Taken after IB quit have they?

[username1337]

More TMO QQ please. I really like to see these nerds cry.

[quido]

BDA and Taken have a chance to compete every day for dragons and gods. What made last week different than this week? TMO hasn't backed away from any raid targets to BDA/Taken after IB quit have they?

I'll tell you what, I sure as hell wouldn't steamroll a BDA draco raid with trains just to get more Widdershins. These guilds have done nothing to earn any ill will and consequently, they would be shown by us the utmost respect with regards to the rules.

I'm pretty sure Taken and BDA fear you tagging their pulls more than us. Someone should start a poll.

[Loly Taa]

BDA and Taken have a chance to compete every day for dragons and gods. What made last week different than this week? TMO hasn't backed away from any raid targets to BDA/Taken after IB quit have they?

Why would be back away from a raid target you're just going to take from them anyway?

As if we just walked away from a target to let Taken/BDA have it you'd stand down?

Please Vesica Dei, keep sending your officers and members here to play up how you want to "help the server" when you've just become the most arrogant self-serving assholes since IB.

You're not fooling anyone, and this silly public relations campaign you're trying to run is just making you look more like the manipulative shitbags that just left this server for EQMac.

The longer you keep this up the more foolish you'll look.

[username1337]

Why would be back away from a raid target you're just going to take from them anyway?

As if we just walked away from a target to let Taken/BDA have it you'd stand down?

Please Vesica Dei, keep sending your officers and members here to play up how you want to "help the server" when you've just become the most arrogant self-serving assholes since IB.

You're not fooling anyone, and this silly public relations campaign you're trying to run is just making you look more like the manipulative shitbags that just left this server for EQMac.

The longer you keep this up the more foolish you'll look.

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lfwrj4ggqv1qa02x4o1_400.jpg

[Autotune]

It's clear to me that VD hasn't spent much time doing anything but worrying about themselves.

As for Taken/Div and BDA, they already know that TMO is willing to work with them. So everyone in VD barking up a storm, you're about 3-5 weeks behind the times.

[Loly Taa]

I have a 65 iksar monk + shaman on SOD if anybody is interested in trading stuff here for them.

username1337 confirmed retard.

[Joroz]

looked like a promising topic, but as usual it has been shit up by the same people as everything else on this server.

[username1337]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Or2SeZWh2O4/TwSivGpMZsI/AAAAAAAAEDs/d2v5j-GmXtM/s1600/Matt-Damon-Hot-Pictures-5.jpg
Loly Taa confirmed gay.

[Splorf22]

This VP training shit started BEFORE we were raid suspended and IB left the server. We were in VP one night and a crack team of VD showed up unannounced to attempt to prevent us from killing Silverwing.

FWIW, I agree this was a dick move by Bisch and I spent a lot of time on the VD forums arguing for him not to do it.

But again, where were all these invitations to go play in VP with no trains and FTE a week ago? We did to go VP, and despite being raid banned with no possibility of killing the dragons yourself, you trained the hell out of us. And you enjoyed doing it too: our members got all sorts of tells about how you guys were gonna have fun corpse camping us off the server.

[Versus]

I personally love camping @ Trak ledge and doing 3 minute engages. See ya there.

Also, once Mem blur is fixed, whatcha gonna do?

[CallnOutTheNubs]

I'll tell you what, I sure as hell wouldn't steamroll a BDA draco raid with trains just to get more Widdershins. These guilds have done nothing to earn any ill will and consequently, they would be shown by us the utmost respect with regards to the rules.

I'm pretty sure Taken and BDA fear you tagging their pulls more than us. Someone should start a poll.

I call utter bullshit on this i recall a thread were san even called you out for training his guild you fucking idoit

anything jeremy says = i picture a steamin pile of shit

[Silentone]

FWIW, I agree this was a dick move by Bisch and I spent a lot of time on the VD forums arguing for him not to do it.

But again, where were all these invitations to go play in VP with no trains and FTE a week ago? We did to go VP, and despite being raid banned with no possibility of killing the dragons yourself, you trained the hell out of us. And you enjoyed doing it too: our members got all sorts of tells about how you guys were gonna have fun corpse camping us off the server.

well you have to remember you guys created this issue when you made a trak rotation that was clearly unfair. IB/VD raided together on every mob yet when it came to trakanon you wanted 1 TMO 2 IB/VD, and you were trying to do the same thing in VP. Had you guys Merged back then and just admited to being one guild negotiations could have been taken seriously. The fact that VD was not banned with IB was already a crime of its own. Then when IB/VD's lower class decided to enter VP it seemed you were twisting words and rules to take our dragons. Personaly you should have ate the ban with IB, you raid the target together but dont share in its consequences? explain..

[quido]

I call utter bullshit on this i recall a thread were san even called you out for training his guild you fucking idoit

98% of my problem with BDA disappeared with Wampy.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Where have they been by the way? Did they leave the game when you were suspended for 3rd party programs Yendor? Again the hypocrisy is just fucking staggering. Bang up job keeping that secret too.

Now, see, Loly... this is why everyone on the server hates TMO. There you go again with your manipulative lying and distortion of the facts in order to try to spin others in a negative light to re-direct attention away from your guild shitting up the server.

Time to see how much faith you place in the info that your mole in our forums passes you.

If a GM/Dev can confirm I have ever been suspended or banned in my P99 history, I will delete my character and never post on the P99 forums again. However, if they confirm that I have never been suspended or banned, then you delete your character and never post on these forums again.

Willing to take that bet, good sir?

[Silentone]

I call utter bullshit on this i recall a thread were san even called you out for training his guild you fucking idoit

anything jeremy says = i picture a steamin pile of shit

i know your on a troll account and dont care, but you do understand this isnt RNF right?

[Loly Taa]

Now, see, Loly... this is why everyone on the server hates TMO. There you go again with your manipulative lying and distortion of the facts in order to try to spin others in a negative light to re-direct attention away from your guild shitting up the server.

Time to see how much faith you place in the info that your mole in our forums passes you.

If a GM/Dev can confirm I have ever been suspended or banned in my P99 history, I will delete my character and never post on the P99 forums again. However, if they confirm that I have never been suspended or banned, then you delete your character and never post on these forums again.

Willing to take that bet, good sir?

It's your guild shitting up the server, and you'll leave p99 without me having to take your bet- trust me ;)

[Splorf22]

well you have to remember you guys created this issue when you made a trak rotation that was clearly unfair. IB/VD raided together on every mob yet when it came to trakanon you wanted 1 TMO 2 IB/VD, and you were trying to do the same thing in VP. Had you guys Merged back then and just admited to being one guild negotiations could have been taken seriously. The fact that VD was not banned with IB was already a crime of its own. Then when IB/VD's lower class decided to enter VP it seemed you were twisting words and rules to take our dragons. Personaly you should have ate the ban with IB, you raid the target together but dont share in its consequences? explain..

Wait, so in your mind VD are assholes for not voluntarily refusing to kill raid mobs despite not being raid suspended? And it never occurred to you that IB got suspended because Perun ninjalooted an epic item, while VD did not get suspended because none of our members ninja looted an epic piece?

Simply put as an actual member of VD I can tell you that IB/VD were never one guild the way you guys are making it out to be. We worked together when we needed each other, did not when we did not, made some friends and had fun but there was definitely some friction too.

[Alkorin]

I give up. You guys are so bound and determined to drag yourselves through the mud from now until kingdom come... so be it.

[Loly Taa]

Wait, so in your mind VD are assholes for not voluntarily refusing to kill raid mobs despite not being raid suspended? And it never occurred to you that IB got suspended because Perun ninjalooted an epic item, while VD did not get suspended because none of our members ninja looted an epic piece?

Simply put as an actual member of VD I can tell you that IB/VD were never one guild the way you guys are making it out to be. We worked together when we needed each other, did not when we did not, made some friends and had fun but there was definitely some friction too.

So if your guild has nothing to do with Perun's bullshit why does he help you out in VP?

That's because you're working together, and in the real world we call this conspiracy. Generally speaking, if ninjalooting was a real-world offense and you were working with the person that did it- you would be involved in the conspiracy and would be just as culpable.

This isn't the real world obviously but I think you guys lack a general understanding of the responsibility you take on when you work with someone else. Just because you weren't appropriately punished for being a part of the whole scenario doesn't make you innocent.

[Visual]

I personally love camping @ Trak ledge and doing 3 minute engages. See ya there.

Also, once Mem blur is fixed, whatcha gonna do?

[Silentone]

Wait, so in your mind VD are assholes for not voluntarily refusing to kill raid mobs despite not being raid suspended? And it never occurred to you that IB got suspended because Perun ninjalooted an epic item, while VD did not get suspended because none of our members ninja looted an epic piece?

Simply put as an actual member of VD I can tell you that IB/VD were never one guild the way you guys are making it out to be. We worked together when we needed each other, did not when we did not, made some friends and had fun but there was definitely some friction too.

Spin it however you want you were 1 guild, and you were doing anything to gain an advantage over us, you wanted rotation on trakanon yet alone VD/IB couldnt compete with us. And yes you were raiding together as one, so if someone trained us from IB, ninja looted, KS'd you all should be banned, there is no doubt in my mind that you got away due to technicality. thats like TMO making 3 guild tags and asking to be in a rotation with VD. next trak rotation TMO1, TMO2, TMO3, Vd, TMO4, deal? Oh and they can each individualy train you, ks you, grief you and nothing happens to the rotation with the others. im sure you would be ok with that

[Ele]

Wait, so in your mind VD are assholes for not voluntarily refusing to kill raid mobs despite not being raid suspended? And it never occurred to you that IB got suspended because Perun ninjalooted an epic item, while VD did not get suspended because none of our members ninja looted an epic piece?

Simply put as an actual member of VD I can tell you that IB/VD were never one guild the way you guys are making it out to be. We worked together when we needed each other, did not when we did not, made some friends and had fun but there was definitely some friction too.

I think the point is he trying to make is that using a joint raid force means each guild that is jointly raiding together should be held accountable for the actions of the other guild during the raid even if they don't share the same guild tag. Keep mind of the company you keep.

[Ele]

So if your guild has nothing to do with Perun's bullshit why does he help you out in VP?

That's because you're working together, and in the real world we call this conspiracy. Generally speaking, if ninjalooting was a real-world offense and you were working with the person that did it- you would be involved in the conspiracy and would be just as culpable.

This isn't the real world obviously but I think you guys lack a general understanding of the responsibility you take on when you work with someone else. Just because you weren't appropriately punished for being a part of the whole scenario doesn't make you innocent.

It wouldn't be so much of a conspiracy as it appears that the act took place in the heat of the moment and conspiracy would require both parties to pre-form an intent and agreement to commit the ninja looting. However, Perun may have gone in there with the intent to do it all along without warning or asking anyone else.

I think accessory is the better term here.

[Metallikus]

I think the point is he trying to make is that using a joint raid force means each guild that is jointly raiding together should be held accountable for the actions of the other guild during the raid even if they don't share the same guild tag. Keep mind of the company you keep.

That's what I say everytime someone says "Not every member in TMO is a complete utter shitbag, there are a couple of nice people there."

We jointly raided with IB on some targets and divided the loot. We never considered combining guilds because we had such different values. Divinity and Taken and maybe even BDA have raided together before, that does not mean that they should combine guilds. It also means that if some guy in Taken is caught for hacking the server that Divinity isn't guilty and should also be suspended when they had no knowledge of the hacker in the other guild. How can VD be responsible for perun taking it upon himself to hold loot ransom. We did not condone his behavior or make him an officer of our guild.

[Silentone]

correct but the only way you could compete on kills was teaming up so why should you each get an individual spot? we gave a spot IB chose to take it as their own and exclude you. we pointed that out but you were happy with the pixles u were getting so you turned your hate on us. IE bisch training us in VP

[YendorLootmonkey]

Now, see, Loly... this is why everyone on the server hates TMO. There you go again with your manipulative lying and distortion of the facts in order to try to spin others in a negative light to re-direct attention away from your guild shitting up the server.

Time to see how much faith you place in the info that your mole in our forums passes you.

If a GM/Dev can confirm I have ever been suspended or banned in my P99 history, I will delete my character and never post on the P99 forums again. However, if they confirm that I have never been suspended or banned, then you delete your character and never post on these forums again.

Willing to take that bet, good sir?

I'm waiting, Loly. Take the bet or your credibility is zero.

[Rais]

lol

I'll quit playing if VP goes FTE no trains no other bullshit, Trak goes on a Rotation with 1 hr window between TMO, VD, and a 3rd slot. Once the one hour window opens, its FFA,and if it was that guilds trak they lost out on, they lose out.

Confirmed Bisch will retire if the above or damn near close to those demands are met.

[Cars]

It's these threads that make me come back and check in from time to time. I wish Goth Circle was still around, they would fit in PERFECT these days...

[Ravager]

lol

I'll quit playing if VP goes FTE no trains no other bullshit, Trak goes on a Rotation with 1 hr window between TMO, VD, and a 3rd slot. Once the one hour window opens, its FFA,and if it was that guilds trak they lost out on, they lose out.

Confirmed Bisch will retire if the above or damn near close to those demands are met.

Bisch, you should have left yourself an out. Now you're damned to play this server forever.

[Estrang]

talk shit about tmo and train them until it's clear you won't be winning anymore raid content?

too little too late imo

[Silentone]

I feel like dragons tonight, dragons tonight ...

[Estrang]

you made your own bed time to lay in it

[Ele]

How can VD be responsible for perun taking it upon himself to hold loot ransom. We did not condone his behavior or make him an officer of our guild.

If you read the responses to the suspensions of several weeks ago, you will find that quite a few people from TMO believe Perun's actions should have resulted in an individual perma-ban and not a guild raid suspension. If that had been the punishment meted out, no one would expect that to apply to the co-raiding guild; however, the punishment dealt was raid suspensions, which logically should apply to any co-raiding guilds.

That's neither here nor there. What happened, happened. Time to move on.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I will say that Xasten and Ele have been very well-spoken and rational in this thread, and I respect that.

[lilyanna]

No. It's too soon, sweetie.

Sweetie !! ... it's really not.. it's just a case of people realising that a rotation needs to be sorted for the benefit of the server. You know once IB left I realised VD would be the next target, I wasn't wrong... if VD wasnt here I guess it would be BDA, Taken or another guild would catch the flack.

Show me I'm wrong, TMO leaders step forward let's get this sorted. You know full well Cold has been trying to sort this and for some time.

[Cars]

Please share the loots...please?

[Versus]

http://i.imgur.com/urKVg.jpg

[Daldaen]

I loled at TMO crying and saying they won't come to the table and agree on a rotation because the other guild that wants them to exploited something.

Lolllll double standard much? Its fine for you to exploit all different kinds of stuff, but when a guild ruins one of your pixelkills with a different exploit you become the ultimate authority on what exploits are allowable and what aren't. /thumbs up!

[Silentone]

Sweetie !! ... it's really not.. it's just a case of people realising that a rotation needs to be sorted for the benefit of the server. You know once IB left I realised VD would be the next target, I wasn't wrong... if VD wasnt here I guess it would be BDA, Taken or another guild would catch the flack.

Show me I'm wrong, TMO leaders step forward let's get this sorted. You know full well Cold has been trying to sort this and for some time.

Show us you can compete and not just grief and we will show you what you want.

[quido]

You know full well Cold has been trying to sort this and for some time.

Yeah that sounds like a great idea: let's sit down at the negotiation tables with Coldblooded again and listen to her demands and complete unwillingness to actually negotiate. (see ragefire rotation)

Nope. You guys don't deserve the same slice we do at this point, and until you actually do or you accept this reality, a rotation agreement is never going to get anywhere.

[Metallikus]

Show us you can compete and not just grief and we will show you what you want.


VP: there is no competition here. It has always been rotated since it was released. what VP dragons have you competed for?

Trakanon: we have competed and beat TMO. No griefing.
This thread is for a Trakanon rotation. We have competed, where is the rotation?

[Splorf22]

Show us you can compete and not just grief and we will show you what you want.

I hate this word compete. Somehow this has become a euphemism for "sitting at your computer for 24 hours a day".

I also think a raid suspension for all of IB was wrong and it should have been a permaban for Perun, especially after he was caught using macroquest. Amelinda is still learning there perhaps.

Anyway, back to the point. Do you guys not see the inconsistency between
"IB/VD are one guild" and "VD just takes IB's leftovers, doesn't get invited to VP, etc". The reality is that we worked with them when we needed each other, and nothing more. We built some friendships and both parties benefited, but this was not some unified anti-TMO front. Do you not see the inconsistency between training the hell out of VD during your raid suspension and lolling about corpse camping our members and "oh lets just do FTE in VP, no trains"?

[quido]

Trakanon: we have competed and beat TMO

Twice. Both were flukes, though nice job. I really do respect you bringing some competition. That being said, the battle is far from over. These victories don't entitle you to an even-keel rotation with us. Let's see how many Trakanons you get in the next three months, VD.

And go ahead and condescend to Taken and BDA some more, you transparent manipulators.

I am in favor of establishing a server-wide rotation on Gorenaire.

[Velion]

Yeah that sounds like a great idea: let's sit down at the negotiation tables with Coldblooded again and listen to her demands and complete unwillingness to actually negotiate. (see ragefire rotation)

Nope. You guys don't deserve the same slice we do at this point, and until you actually do or you accept this reality, a rotation agreement is never going to get anywhere.

No matter how many targets VD gets there will always be an ever-moving bar of what you consider competition. From what I understand, in the 6 Trakanons this past month that were poop-socked/contested, VD ended up with 3 and TMO 3 (I'm not counting the 2 during the suspensions obviously since that wasn't contested).

Of course you will say "that's only one month" or "that's a fluke", so throw some fucking numbers out there. Does 50% over two months mean anything or will that still be considered a fluke? I'm asking seriously here. Two months ago we didn't live up to a rotation because we had never competed against you and won a Trakanon. That is obviously not the case anymore.

[quido]

The Trakanon you sandbagged right after we (TMO and IB) threw you out of the previous agreement doesn't count. The way I see it is VD and TMO have only competed on 5 Trakanons - we've gotten 3, you've gotten 2. Do you really think you can hold 50% over several months against us? I invite you to try. I wouldn't consider that a fluke.

[Velion]

The Trakanon you sandbagged right after we (TMO and IB) threw you out of the previous agreement doesn't count. The way I see it is VD and TMO have only competed on 5 Trakanons - we've gotten 3, you've gotten 2. Do you really think you can hold 50% over several months against us? I invite you to try. I wouldn't consider that a fluke.

And how many of those will you come up with excuses for? You've already made an excuse for one of those. I'm not going to sit here and get in a pissing contest and say "you suck, we can get 80% of them over 6 months!!1!". The truth is, no one knows how many we'd get over the course of several months. Obviously our mobilization has grown exponentially over just the past 2 months so who knows.

If you don't want a rotation because you just truly like the "competition" (aka seeing who can get 30 logged in fastest at any time of day) then that's fine, but at least be honest. I actually do like the competition that takes place for the rest of the mobs (kunark dragons, CT, draco, Maestro, Inny) since there is actual mobilization and complicated pulls required. I just don't like having to keep my main camped out 50% of the time at Trakanon and I think many people feel the same way.

[Silentone]

I hate this word compete. Somehow this has become a euphemism for "sitting at your computer for 24 hours a day".

I also think a raid suspension for all of IB was wrong and it should have been a permaban for Perun, especially after he was caught using macroquest. Amelinda is still learning there perhaps.

Anyway, back to the point. Do you guys not see the inconsistency between
"IB/VD are one guild" and "VD just takes IB's leftovers, doesn't get invited to VP, etc". The reality is that we worked with them when we needed each other, and nothing more. We built some friendships and both parties benefited, but this was not some unified anti-TMO front. Do you not see the inconsistency between training the hell out of VD during your raid suspension and lolling about corpse camping our members and "oh lets just do FTE in VP, no trains"?

the point is alone you could not compete against TMO, this was obvious. If it was not then you would have not teamed up to kill said mobs. However when it came time to Rotation you each wanted your own spot, this is why you got upset and started training us in VP when it was our turn, but would not train IB when it was their turn. Same deal with Trakanon, basicaly IB used you to get a rotation, then dumped you when they got their Trakanon rotation and Vp rotation. Let me ask you a question, How could we come up with a rotation, unless two sides agreed. IB agreed to a rotation w/o you, Ill say it again because you want to point fingers and make us look bad. You got used in order for us to come to a agreement with IB, you were never included in a rotation then you turned and took your anger out on TMO. When you should have been mad at your partner , IB (who left you out).

[Versus]

VP: there is no competition here. It has always been rotated since it was released. what VP dragons have you competed for?

The ones when IB broke the rotation agreement.

Trakanon: we have competed and beat TMO. No griefing.

Not for nothing, but we had to compete with IB on that ledge for months before an agreement was decided upon. Be patient and earn it, its only been a small handfull of Trak's.

[quido]

I am being completely honest and forthcoming. There are no real excuses on my end. I accept my defeats as well as my victories. But we both know the competition didn't really begin until IB left.

I respect VD's tenacity in their efforts, and I will respect them a lot more if it actually lasts.

So show us what you got! But stop with this rotation nonsense - it is going nowhere right now. I promise. We're pretty hungry too, you know.

[lilyanna]

Show us you can compete and not just grief and we will show you what you want.

When it comes to griefing TMO win hands down. Ask eccezbannnn or whatever his name is, sending me tells as soon as I log in of a morning giving me grief, seriously I'm not interested.:rolleyes:

[Teddie1056]

Point is, we could if we tried. We just really don't want to. This is why you guys are being unreasonable. We are asking for a share, not all of it, a share, without this annoying socking. You guys are demanding all of it unless we can prove that we are capable of taking half of it. We have taken half of it (or 2/5 of it according to Jeremy). This is at least enough to prove that we are fully capable of taking Trak. Fact is, this rotation would be the only way that Taken/Div/BDA could get a shot at Trak without direct VD/TMO assistance. That, and all of a sudden poopsocking is out the window. And that is something that the whole server can agree sucks. Now if we can just get over our petty differences and stop raging at each other maybe we can get something like Cold suggested done.

[Gringo]

18 pages of TMO saying they just want to crap up the server, thanks guys.

[quido]

Point is, we could if we tried. We just really don't want to. This is why you guys are being unreasonable. We are asking for a share, not all of it, a share, without this annoying socking. You guys are demanding all of it unless we can prove that we are capable of taking half of it. We have taken half of it (or 2/5 of it according to Jeremy). This is at least enough to prove that we are fully capable of taking Trak. Fact is, this rotation would be the only way that Taken/Div/BDA could get a shot at Trak without direct VD/TMO assistance. That, and all of a sudden poopsocking is out the window. And that is something that the whole server can agree sucks. Now if we can just get over our petty differences and stop raging at each other maybe we can get something like Cold suggested done.

We all know that 5 pops is not a large enough sample size to make a claim one way or another! How about 45?

And also, we are not demanding everything :) If you came at us saying we could have two or three kills to your one in a system that is 50% rotation, or something, we'd probably actually consider it. This is a far cry from the currently proposed nonsense. Trying to bargain with Coldblooded is futile. You people act like a bunch of entitled wussies.

When it just comes down to a difference of opinion (I dispute that you deserve as equal a slice as we do right now), it becomes time to hash it out on the battlefield. I invite you to engage in open, fair, and sportsmanlike competition over an extended period of time.

Yes, whoever said it, part of my aversion to a full rotation is the lack of exciting competition. But I personally am open to a reasonable partial rotation.

[Silentone]

to gringo

I dont see it that way, we just asked to be treated fairly. Im betting you didnt even read anything and just decided to troll the post, that in my opinion has been relative. I have read everything that has been posted and considered both sides of the issue. Sure my view is bias to my position, but i promiss you so is VD's, and we are trying to communicate if you dont like it, Doors that way >>>>

[Daldolma]

ITT: TMO explains that they will treat other guilds the way IB treated them, after spending 8 months complaining about the way they were treated by IB.

[Gumm]

it's brutally clear that members of VD have posted this in an attempt to win public support by placing all blame on the lack of a rotation on TMO.

instead of trying to sway public opinion and outrage onto your side, why not outright win trakanon's? if you care so much about the good of the server, invite those other guilds that don't currently engage trakanon such as taken, divinity, BDA etc and have them raid with you.

you can't play only one side in this discussion.

[quido]

ITT: TMO explains that they will treat other guilds the way IB treated them, after spending 8 months complaining about the way they were treated by IB.

Nobody in a long time has complained about getting legitimately beaten. We complained mostly because you're a bunch of cheating sketchballs who have no scruples, as a guild anyways.

[AenarieFenninRo]

-DISCLAIMER- I am not an officer of TMO and cannot make any sort of agreements to rotations. I am going to be as impartial as I can, but I am a member of TMO and will be called out as having a bias and lying etc etc. I'm going to post it anyway though, and if I make a mistake, it is not for the intent of showing one guild above another, and please let me know so I can adjust the numbers accordingly.

I love the math here, VD has 5 Trak, IB 3, TMO 3... I believe that was the statement above, i'm not going back to search for it to quote.

2 of those VD killed Traks were killed during the TMO / IB raid suspension... so your competition was BDA and TAKEN I believe. I hold no animosity toward anyone when i say this, but I think most people would agree that the competition level between VD and TMO versus the competition level between VD / TAKEN / BDA are NOT the same.

This leaves 3 "uncontested by TMO / IB" for which VD can lay claim to in their recorded numbers from above

The rotation:
3 IB traks - uncompeted for by VD
3 TMO traks - VD tries to compete for and lost (this is a simple assumption made from the fact that it was stated that TMO got 3 and VD was there every single time but maybe they were just there to watch how we killed it)

3 TMO vs 3 VD = an even split since at this point IB is gone, and will no longer factor into the numbers.

One of VD's kills counted above in which TMO was off killing Talendor, Trak was killed 15 mins after it spawned, i'm not taking the number away, just making a statement here for time of life, and assume that VD would have gotten it regardless of TMO not being present.

last night - TMO took out trak... from spawn to death in 3min 45 seconds.

Now i'm no rocket scientist, but I put that count now at 4 TMO vs 3 VD... still a very respectable split, I think it works out like 57% / 43% in TMO's favor. Nothing to scoff at from either guild, and not a statistically wide enough margin to validate an even split since the sample size is so small.

so, if we go with a relatively even split, lets concentrate on the only other outstanding factor, kill time.

~15 mins vs ~4min

Conclusions:
1) If VD can consistently kill Trak in ~4 mins EVERY TIME it pops and the %'s stay in the 50/50 range of VD vs TMO kills, I am guessing some form of rotation will be adopted.

2) IF it continues to take VD ~15 minutes from spawn to kill of Trak, then there will never be a rotation, because TMO will be getting every kill.

[Newguy]

First it was IB, now its VD's fault. Starting to think the real shit bags here are TMO.

[Teddie1056]

To echo Aenarie, I am not an officer of Vesica Dei, so I can't agree to anything either.

But what about a rotation of

1. TMO
2. Open
3. VD
4. Open (Minus TMO/VD).

This makes it so that TMO and VD do still compete, everyone else gets a shot, and we get some stability.

[Rais]

I take my offer back. This will be too much fun. Sooner or later it'll sink in this is stupid all around and everyone works something out.

Till then, I'm with stupid.

[Daldolma]

Nobody in a long time has complained about getting legitimately beaten. We complained mostly because you're a bunch of cheating sketchballs who have no scruples, as a guild anyways.

I'm not IB. I just appreciate the irony.

Until recently, IB refused to accept any rotation or agreement that didn't greatly favor them because they felt they would win a disproportionate amount of the open competitions. TMO complained and accused them of being greedy, conniving pixelnerds that would stop at nothing (read: rule lawyering, poopsocking, training, ninja-looting) to squeeze out every last pixel.

The day finally came when TMO overtook IB, and IB stomped off the server. Now as top dog, TMO has done all of the above that they were so infuriated with IB for having done.

Also, the "legitimately beaten" thing is a straw man. If we ask the defeated, nobody has ever been legitimately beaten. When VD beats you on Trak, it's -- and I quote -- "a fluke". When you beat VD, it's because you're socking and/or training. Etc, etc, forever and ever.

TMO is inarguably #1 right now. After so many months of complaining about IB, it'd be nice if you didn't follow so closely in their footsteps.

[heartbrand]

Everything in this thread is why contested spawns without PVP is retarded, happy to be on red.

[Ravager]

Conclusions:
1) If VD can consistently kill Trak in ~4 mins EVERY TIME it pops and the %'s stay in the 50/50 range of VD vs TMO kills, I am guessing some form of rotation will be adopted.

2) IF it continues to take VD ~15 minutes from spawn to kill of Trak, then there will never be a rotation, because TMO will be getting every kill.

True for now. But don't forget the fact that you won't get any Traks if you're not actively socking it, regardless of how long it takes us to kill it.

[Cyrano]

to gringo

I dont see it that way, we just asked to be treated fairly. Im betting you didnt even read anything and just decided to troll the post, that in my opinion has been relative. I have read everything that has been posted and considered both sides of the issue. Sure my view is bias to my position, but i promiss you so is VD's, and we are trying to communicate if you dont like it, Doors that way >>>>

I have no dog in this fight. I don't play on P99 anymore nor do I plan to if Velious ever comes out. With that said Silent you're the best troll in TMO because you act like you honestly believe the BS that comes out of your mouth. Be treated fairly? By who? The ball is in your court. You guys are far and away the strongest and most organized guild on P99 now that IB is gone and it's not even close.

You guys are singlehandedly the dirtiest guild I've ever encountered in any game and you do it blatantly while feigning innocence and building these ridiculous forum campaigns to smear any competition. If the GMs secretly formed a guild, followed every rule in the book, and beat you TMO would be screaming about cheating, inside information, and begin the general bullshit you guys use to push guilds with less members around.

The one thing I can tell you about TMO is that you guys hate IB more than you like yourselves and with direction of your ire removed it was only a matter of time before you guys turned towards another guild. You act like you have good relations with all guilds besides VD but I have yet to see someone outside of TMO come and defend you guys. You say that VD should be working this out behind the scenes but your guild leader refuses to come to the table (something we always made public in IB is that you guys refused to negotiate until the last possible second). Somehow you've turned Cold into the bad guy for trying to better P99.

With all of that said, this will fall on deaf ears because the P99 forums have become TMO's playground.

[Newguy]

i bet IB makes it to VP on Eqmac b4 you guys work out a rotation

[Gwence]

TMO still shitting up the place I see, if anyone is suprised by this they should have there head checked.

I never really dealt with TMO other than watching there continued idiocy on the forums from like half there guild lol, if I had to guess I would estimate there guild is made up for people between the ages of 14-18 that live at home still... because holy shit if they are actually adults in society I can't even begin to comment on the seriousness of that problem.

All it takes is one sensible person though, hopefully you guys (vd and rest of server) can find that 1 person (in tmo) and work things out for the good of the server, because right now I can't imagine Nilbog is bothering to do anything in terms of server progression, why would he be?

[quido]

If we ask the defeated, nobody has ever been legitimately beaten.

That's not really true and an unfair generalization. I'm not in denial about sometimes losing; it happens.

And I'm not trying to disparage the two Trak kills VD did get. Good for them for getting them, but in general, we won't be wiping to him, nor will we be leaving the lair for Talendor.

I am all for sharing, but know your place. VD proposing that they deserve as much as we do is an affront to our honor! Such claims must be met with fierce competition.

I'll tell you what I would be in favor of: Neither TMO nor VD competing on like one out of four mobs. At this point we have no interest in a rotation agreement with VD, but I'd still like to provide whoever's interested with a shot to try these encounters.

[Cyrano]

I'm not IB. I just appreciate the irony.

Until recently, IB refused to accept any rotation or agreement that didn't greatly favor them because they felt they would win a disproportionate amount of the open competitions. TMO complained and accused them of being greedy, conniving pixelnerds that would stop at nothing (read: rule lawyering, poopsocking, training, ninja-looting) to squeeze out every last pixel.

The day finally came when TMO overtook IB, and IB stomped off the server. Now as top dog, TMO has done all of the above that they were so infuriated with IB for having done.

Also, the "legitimately beaten" thing is a straw man. If we ask the defeated, nobody has ever been legitimately beaten. When VD beats you on Trak, it's -- and I quote -- "a fluke". When you beat VD, it's because you're socking and/or training. Etc, etc, forever and ever.

TMO is inarguably #1 right now. After so many months of complaining about IB, it'd be nice if you didn't follow so closely in their footsteps.

That's complete horseshit, TMO never came to the table to discuss rotations. It was IB that pushed for the original Trak rotation and it was Rogean that forced TMO/IB to develop a rotation for VP.

For the record IB is by no means clean here, we did our fair share of shitty stuff to TMO just like they did to us. But people (and I know you call them out later in your post) need to stop acting like TMO was ever a victim of IB.

[Zapatos]

Ok. Then just do:

Slot 1: TMO and VD compete.
Slot 2: Open to the rest of the server minus tmo/vd.

Play nice now tmo?

[quido]

Ok. Then just do:

Slot 1: TMO and VD compete.
Slot 2: Open to the rest of the server minus tmo/vd.

Play nice now tmo?

Now that's asking a little much, don't you think?

Cmon, Vesica Dei.... how would you feel about 75% competition and 25% give to the server? This sounds pretty awesome to me!

[Daldolma]

That's not really true and an unfair generalization. I'm not in denial about sometimes losing; it happens.

And I'm not trying to disparage the two Trak kills VD did get. Good for them for getting them, but in general, we won't be wiping to him, nor will we be leaving the lair for Talendor.

I am all for sharing, but know your place. VD proposing that they deserve as much as we do is an affront to our honor! Such claims must be met with fierce competition.

I'll tell you what I would be in favor of: Neither TMO nor VD competing on like one out of four mobs. At this point we have no interest in a rotation agreement with VD, but I'd still like to provide whoever's interested with a shot to try these encounters.

I actually believe you when you say this, but you do not speak for your guild on the subject.

Unless the logs are falsified, Coldblooded has tried to work out a rotation of some sort with Zeelot no less than three times and Zeelot has not even entertained the possibility. That doesn't sound like a guild leader ready to compromise. Granted, he likely didn't expect a rotation agreement to the effect of 3 open competitions for TMO/VD, then 1 for the rest of the server. But I have to believe that that type of deal would at least be entertained by Coldblooded, with a few possible tweaks. I have no confidence that Zeelot would even consider it.

I'd be glad to be wrong, but I don't think I am. It seems to me as though IB and TMO are more or less interchangeable in the top dog role.

[YendorLootmonkey]

instead of trying to sway public opinion and outrage onto your side, why not outright win trakanon's?

We have, and we will continue to do so.

if you care so much about the good of the server, invite those other guilds that don't currently engage trakanon such as taken, divinity, BDA etc and have them raid with you.

And the rhetoric from TMO will be "The only reason you won that one is because you had help with Taken/BDA/Div", etc, etc... the same crap we heard when we were raiding with IB. Those guilds deserve a shot at Trak on their own, without TMO calling them our zerglings and cry for a merge or however they'd spin it.

I wouldn't mind a Trak rotation like Zapatos proposed:

1) TMO vs VD
2) open (non-TMO and VD) for X number of hours, then FFA

Gives TMO the competition they crave, and gives the other guilds on the server a shot on their own.

[quido]

You're right, I don't speak for TMO. But I mean what I say. I'd be willing to wager that I could get enough people behind it. Maybe not though.

It seems pretty reasonable to me. My hostility towards meting out a deal only extends as far as Vesica Dei.

[Daldolma]

Well, we've got an officer from TMO saying he'd be in favor of:

Open
Open
Open
Non-TMO/VD

and we've got an officer from VD saying he'd be in favor of:

Open
Non-TMO/VD

Seems like it's in the guild leaders' courts. As far as I'm concerned, either of the above would be a unique, promising, and altogether unexpected advance in the end-game relations on P99. Will be interesting to see if it happens, and if not, who shoots it down.

[Autotune]

You're right, I don't speak for TMO. But I mean what I say. I'd be willing to wager that I could get enough people behind it. Maybe not though.

It seems pretty reasonable to me. My hostility towards meting out a deal only extends as far as Vesica Dei.

that rotation has already been thought up believe it or not lol. I'm glad VD brought it up too now. :D

[quido]

Yendor, that's asking too much and you know it. That is an agreement which is tailored to suit your inferiority. Try to come up with something more reasonable.

How about my proposal? No agreement except to give one in four mobs to whoever wants them outside of TMO/VD, for 24 hours or something. I think this would be a great place to start! It's not like it has to last forever.

And honestly I think the obvious "meeting in the middle" of 2 open 1 non-TMO/VD is asking too much. I don't see myself getting behind anything more generous than relinquishing one in four, currently.

[Teddie1056]

What do you think of my rotation?
1/4 VD, 1/4 TMO, 1/4 Competition, 1/4 Everyone else.

[quido]

What do you think of my rotation?
1/4 VD, 1/4 TMO, 1/4 Competition, 1/4 Everyone else.

I think your rotation sucks.

I cannot get behind a rotation that defaults the same amount for free to VD as it does to us. Not until they put the hurt on us for an extended period of time, anyways.

[Daldolma]

Yendor, that's asking too much and you know it. That is an agreement which is tailored to suit your inferiority. Try to come up with something more reasonable.

How about my proposal? No agreement except to give one in four mobs to whoever wants them outside of TMO/VD, for 24 hours or something. I think this would be a great place to start! It's not like it has to last forever.

And honestly I think the obvious "meeting in the middle" of 2 open 1 non-TMO/VD is asking too much. I don't see myself getting behind anything more generous than relinquishing one in four, currently.

Honestly, as an objective observer, I think Jeremy is right. 1 in 4 is plenty fair. Less than that is a fake concession -- more than that benefits the weaker of the two competitors (whoever you believe that to be). One in four would be appropriate.

[quido]

Thanks for your polite and conscientious input, Daldolma. I apologize for mistaking you for some IB caster.

[Daldolma]

No worries, shit happens. I get why you'd be on edge.

[Banbarian]

Any time you see Perun, Kins, Loke, etc in VP you can rest assured we are not working with VD. We are simply there to ruin your day.

Nobody in a long time has complained about getting legitimately beaten. We complained mostly because you're a bunch of cheating sketchballs who have no scruples, as a guild anyways.

Yeah, I got yelled at a lot when I used to play 1.6 for using an aimbot too, except I wasn't

Nothing has changed

Stay strong VD, they are crumbling.

[Zapatos]

"1/4 VD, 1/4 TMO, 1/4 Competition, 1/4 Everyone else."

This is actually fine too, though it's not nearly as generous to the rest of the server as the 3 slot rotation that coldblooded proposed. You guys really need to think of the larger picture though; this isn't just about hoarding loots, this is about maintaining a healthy server.

edit: before anyone scrutinizes the 'everyone else' slot, realize that just means tmo and vd would back off, that there's nothing stopping the rest of the server from competing for every single trak anyways on the other slots

[Teddie1056]

Why are we crumbling? What evidence do you have of this?

What is wrong with my rotation? It lets you prove you are better than us. You could possibly double the amount of traks VD has.

[Metallikus]

Reasonable compromise:

Trakanon rotation: TMO, VD, OPEN (TMO/VD won't touch it for 2 hours to give others a shot, after that its FTE)

VP rotation:
week 1: TMO takes 5 dragons, VD attempts one dragon
week 2: VD attempts a different dragon
week 3: VD attempts a different dragon
ect.

6 hours was the previous agreement on time to kill your VP dragon, after that it was FTE.
If VD kills their dragon for the week, we rotate it.
If VD cannot kill the dragon they are attempting that week, it won't be on rotation.

[quido]

Metallikus, that is not a reasonable compromise from my point of view. How many times do I have to say it? You don't deserve that much for free.

If you are serious about bettering the server for these people who aren't in my guild or yours, though, you should consider my genuine and earnest proposal to relinquish one in four mobs to whoever. It would be a great start and would be really fun for a lot of people.

Or maybe you can come at us with another self-serving counteroffer.

[quido]

Furthermore, VD would have the chance to build street cred a lot faster when they're competing on 3 out of 4 and not 1 out of 3 or 4 mobs. Going and pooping a 36 hour window once every other week doesn't earn you a lot of points in my book.

I'd consider competition on a scale less than this to not really be indicative of true performance when considering a possibly rotation in the future.

I'm sorry, VD, but you're just going to have to actually earn what it is you want handed to you.

[Newguy]

Reasonable compromise:

Trakanon rotation: TMO, VD, OPEN (TMO/VD won't touch it for 2 hours to give others a shot, after that its FTE)

VP rotation:
week 1: TMO takes 5 dragons, VD attempts one dragon
week 2: VD attempts a different dragon
week 3: VD attempts a different dragon
ect.

6 hours was the previous agreement on time to kill your VP dragon, after that it was FTE.
If VD kills their dragon for the week, we rotate it.
If VD cannot kill the dragon they are attempting that week, it won't be on rotation.

Now that is a GREAT plan

[Nirgon]

If you don't think sharing mobs and giving other people a shot is good for this (blue) server's community? You're off your fucking rocker.

This is about loot, nothing more and nothing less. They aren't willing to compromise.

[Metallikus]

Furthermore, VD would have the chance to build street cred a lot faster when they're competing on 3 out of 4 and not 1 out of 3 or 4 mobs. Going and pooping a 36 hour window once every other week doesn't earn you a lot of points in my book.

pooping 36 hour windows 3 times a week earns Jeremy's street cred?

[quido]

Yes Metallikus, and you'll soon see what I'm talking about if you actually want to take it to the mattresses. This shitshow is just getting rolling, if that's how you want it to be.

VD is afraid to actually compete. They are desperate for an entitlement rotation.

Let's see what you punks actually got - come at me, bruise.

[AenarieFenninRo]

I love how someone has gone from a suggestion of how to break up TRAK spawns has tried to now say that VP is also going to be part of this same thread... Coldblooded herself has talked about this being about TRAK not VP.

quit trying to steamroll one into another, and there is zero agreement at this point, there is VD trying to say this is the way to do it, and Jeremy saying "thats an interesting argument" that does not conceed to any agreement, its an observation

[Newguy]

First it was IB, now its VD's fault. Starting to think the real shit bags here are TMO.

[quido]

I love how someone has gone from a suggestion of how to break up TRAK spawns has tried to now say that VP is also going to be part of this same thread... Coldblooded herself has talked about this being about TRAK not VP.

quit trying to steamroll one into another, and there is zero agreement at this point, there is VD trying to say this is the way to do it, and Jeremy saying "thats an interesting argument" that does not conceed to any agreement, its an observation

You have terrible verbal skills.

VD has always been of the "my way or the highway mentality." I put a real proposal on the table that will provide some action to the guilds who haven't seen as much as they would like, and all VD can do is try to get a little more out of it for themselves.

TMO will not enter a rotation agreement with VD on Trakanon at this point. Don't waste your time and effort in resistance to this cold(blooded) and hard fact.

You could be spending that effort to get people behind relinquishing 1/4 of all raid targets, for two months or something, to people who aren't in VD or TMO. Why don't you? I think it's a fucking brilliant proposal. If you people even expressed the slightest interest in such a thing, I would similarly being trying to get my people behind it. Cmon, take a little nibble at my juicy worm! ;)

[YendorLootmonkey]

1) TMO vs VD
2) open (non-TMO and VD) for X number of hours, then FFA


If you want to make sure VD doesn't get more than your version of "fair share of mobs", then beat us to them. Try and make sure VD gets zero. In this scenario, VD only gets as many Traks as they earn by beating you.

[Zapatos]

TMO will not enter a rotation agreement with VD on Trakanon at this point.

Then at least rotate with the rest of the server, as one of you said you be more willing to do. Continue to compete with VD but allow for a slot where tmo and vd back off after a pop. Can you even do that?

TMO vs VD
TMO vs VD
OPEN - tmo and vd 6 hours then ffa

Or are you going to say that the rest of the server doesn't deserve a chance either and it isn't just VD you hate? Your argument falls apart at some point.

[tekniq]

Jeremy you prove valid points in your arguments, simultaneously VD also supports some valid points in their arguments though Jeremy you are right, they haven't killed a dragon yet using the normal training rules I'll give you that. But honestly, looking from the outside in, your reps are acting pretty childish. There's no need to troll on server forums.

I'm positively sure you two can reach some sort of mutual agreement, with the right representatives. Your offers are not taken seriously by anyone due to the unneeded troll comments. We're all adults here, can we negotiate like one? The way you two guilds are handling issues are detrimental to the whole server. There is no chivalry or respect left on this server. I also hope that as a guild, your hate towards each other isn't towards everyone in the opposing guild. Both guilds have cool people, so it's unnecessary to make enemies out of people who don't really hate each other.

Before you two even negotiate any kind of rotation or mutual agreement of any sort, you guys need to learn how to RESPECT each other and learn to LIVE with each other. Without that, nothing will be achieved. Xasten posted some great insight in the RnF thread, I suggest both of you guys take the time to read it and soak it in.

Though you two guilds might be fighting for mobs, the server does not revolve around you and both your actions are making GM's hate this server.

Love, not hate.

[Awwalike]

who cares about shitty blue server with shitty 150 man guild. focus on red.

[AenarieFenninRo]

My statement was actually directed at VD trying to say "this is how its going to be". They then try to use your "observation" to say its TMO agreeing to it.

I have seen VD people do this in other threads several times. Its how they get their wiggle room to try to say "we did this in good faith" when the original proposal was completely aligned in their favor and against the other party.

They will then try to turn this into the TMO hates the server, and everyone should be against them argument.

Dont fall into their trap Jeremy!

[sedrie.bellamie]

VD has become the zerg they hated

VD probably cannot control all of their players -- with Bisch accessing other players characters and then those players having to change their passwords b/c they dont want to de-level like Bisch is doing over and over in VP

VD is all surprised TMO doesn't want to deal with them when basically VD cut TMO in the back a few months ago siding with IB

TMO is an organized raiding guild that doesn't control the top end content but is just able to clear that content faster than most

VD is a family guild that is trying to force a rotation so they can go back to casual and stop having to chase every mob with TMO

[AenarieFenninRo]

They will then try to turn this into the TMO hates the server, and everyone should be against them argument.

Dont fall into their trap Jeremy!

Its already started even in the time it took me to post my comment!

[Teddie1056]

Thanks for that insightful post sed.

[quido]

If you want to make sure VD doesn't get more than your version of "fair share of mobs", then beat us to them. Try and make sure VD gets zero. In this scenario, VD only gets as many Traks as they earn by beating you.

Such a proposal is out of the question. As I stated before, competition when it is only half of the time isn't real competition, in my opinion. It is a tailor-made handicap that benefits you and hinders us. It is not going to happen.

Furthermore I think having 50% of the mobs being open to competition after a set period of time is a further handicap since we generally crush you on the fast mobilize. Those two hours or whatever you have to prepare for that FFA is a relative advantage to you. I don't like it.

Vesica Dei, you are not going to get what you want in an agreement with us; all your proposals unfairly handicap our superiority that we wish to embrace. You are going to have to prove it, I think. But we can at least offer up one out of four mobs in the interest of the server here, can't we? Cmon guys, wouldn't it be awesome to pique the interest of a bunch of people and have that much more dynamic of an endgame raiding scene?

It is clear that we are at odds with regards to how much of a handicap you deserve. Surely, though, we can agree that it would be really fucking awesome to give our pals not in our guilds a chance even just to try out some of this content.

Cmon sluts, let's see it happen for 2 months. Let's see it happen for even just a month!

[Frieza_Prexus]

it was Rogean that forced TMO/IB to develop a rotation for VP.

As far as I am aware, this is untrue. While the first cycle on opening night was rotated, the subsequent rotation was voluntarily assented to by both sides. I remember quite a vigorous debate within TMO's ranks over whether or not to accept a rotation.

[Teddie1056]

We can hold our own over a month or 2. We can do it. We don't want to. And I can only hope that you don't want to. You'd be crazy to enjoy poopsocking.

How about
1. TMO
2. Open
3. Vd
4. Open
5. Open (minus VD/TMO)

This gives even more competition. Renew it on a monthly basis, if we can't get anything out of the open slots, then kill the rotation.

If you truly are as dominant as you say, you will get 3 a rotation to our 1.

[Autotune]

3/4 traks competed against with TMO vs VD

the 4th trak going to the server (excluding TMO and VD) regardless. If not killed within a certain time frame, they joint raid it and roll on the drops.


This gives the server other than TMO and VD a chance at a Bard epic no matter what.

[quido]

We can hold our own over a month or 2. We can do it. We don't want to. And I can only hope that you don't want to. You'd be crazy to enjoy poopsocking.

How about
1. TMO
2. Open
3. Vd
4. Open
5. Open (minus VD/TMO)

This gives even more competition. Renew it on a monthly basis, if we can't get anything out of the open slots, then kill the rotation.

If you truly are as dominant as you say, you will get 3 a rotation to our 1.

Poopsocking is fun! I prefer to call it an "alt advancement opportunity."

I don't like your rotation, though, for reasons I have already stated above. It yields too much.

[Kika Maslyaka]

A point of view from indifferent observer:

IMHO, this discussion has hit a dead end.

The TMO CLEARLY believes they are stronger (and probably with a good reason), and will not agree to any rotation that would diminish their potential raid opportunities, other than out of occasional charity.

VD on other hand simply need to muster up a force to race TMO to targets couple dozen times and actually win those fights, before TMO agrees to listen to anything VD has to say.

I sympathize with VD plight, but competition is competition ;)

[deneauth]

Yeah basically once they start losing, bring on the rotation. Its all i could get out of this thread.

[quido]

This thread has strayed so far, there's not much point.

But I'll say this: the 2 times I dragged a train to a TMO raid both worked. One was while you were prepping, and one was on a Hoshkar attempt. Mem blur is certainly not necessary, just easier.

Myuharin, how many times would you have done this if you hadn't gotten killed by us (and yourself) a bunch of times?

[quido]

Yeah basically once they start losing, bring on the rotation. Its all i could get out of this thread.

I didn't think you even raided. Have you heard anything other than "bring it" from us? We accept the possible consequences of our confidence.

[Teddie1056]

If you were to design a rotation in which VD was guaranteed at least one trak, what would it look like?

[deneauth]

I dont raid but this is an RNF thread now jeremy. Nothing will be accomplished here it will all be done in PMs and in game.

[bizzum]

Im pretty happy that I started reading this in server chat, and then when I got back I saw the newest post to the thread was in RNF =P

[Teddie1056]

Why'd they put it in RnF, this seemed like a semi-civil debate at least.

[Alkorin]

Goddamn, stop ruining my post count by RnFing every thread I post in, you rat bastards.

[deneauth]

I also understand where you are coming from with the " bring it" mentality Jeremy, but I feel like too many bridges have been burned between VD and TMO. We would have to consistantly beat you guys to mobs for a long time in order to earn "respect" which it would seem a lot of people dont want to invest that much time in doing. It would be an enormous time sink that a lot of people dont want to be involved in.

[Alarti0001]

If TMO are truly the self-proclaimed "good guys" of the server, then they would agree to a rotation on Trak that allows for BDA, Taken, and/or Divinity to have a shot at Trak, to improve the raid scene on the server for all. They would agree to a VP rotation so they could peacefully share the zone with the other guild capable of doing it.

Instead, they're goading us into trying a VP dragon so they can train the crap out of us. Bully tactics were responded to with force, and will continue to be responded to in force. Our goal is not to kill a VP dragon. Our goal is to deny you your precious pixels and force you to waste time poopsocking Trak until you finally concede that these mobs aren't yours to distribute rights to as you see fit as the bullies of the server. Until then, you're getting your own medicine force-fed back to you until you realize sharing is a more effective use of everyone's time.

There's still plenty of competition on the other mobs to float your boat. But Taken/Div/BDA deserve a shot at Trak, too.

I'd agree to a trak rotation that went like this.

1. Tmo
2. Open to all but VD

[deneauth]

Jeremy i also understand your bring it mentality but he way i see it is time sink = skill and if you cant invest the time then you suck at eq. Thats pretty much why i dont raid because i suck at it.

[deneauth]

Shit sorry for double post on the smartphone again.

[Teddie1056]

What I see here is a double standard for VD. We are not powerful enough to get an exclusive rotation spot, but we are too powerful to be given a spot away from TMO to compete with the rest of the server.

Honestly, it should either be

1. TMO
2. VD
3. Everyone Else

or

1. TMO
2. Everyone else

or even

1. TMO
2. Everyone else
3. Everyone but TMO or VD

If you really consider us the family guild you say we are, then we deserve a chance to duke it out with the rest of the server unhindered. If we are too strong for that, give us a fair rotation.

[quido]

Teddie you don't make much sense to me.

[ibso]

How about the cool people from TMO and VD (I'm sure there are many in each) unite & form one guild... call it TMD or VDO. They can kill dragons and be happy. Then, all the pissy RnF morons left over can form their own guild/guilds (doesn't matter) and continue to complain about each other and everything.

[ibso]

Also, I've been wondering: Why do you people keep playing the '12 year old' card against each other. As if the age of the game has anything to do with anything. The game is fun and that's why you play it. If it's twelve years old and fun, it's the same as if its six months old and fun. It seems like a cheap & easy way for people to demean others without addressing any real argument. 'Haha umad over 12 y.o. game lawlz!1'.

Oh wait, this is RnF.

[Teddie1056]

Agree to disagree Jeremy.

And problem is Ibso, there are cool people in both guilds who don't like each other just due to tag. Most of us assume that the other guild is full of mass murderers who cheat and steal. CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG! Kumbaya

[Abacab PvP Prophet]

The server took the wrong action by banning Abacab; at least I kept guilds in check! Now that I've lost my ability to regulate the raid situation these guilds have grown too large and now threaten the stability of the server with all of their partisan infighting.

VOTE YES on unbanning Abacab to fix this inflation of egos

[Teddie1056]

Pfff. Abacab...

Bring back Fourthmeal

[quido]

How about Zeelot plays Coldblooded in beer pong and the winner gets to dictate the terms?

[deneauth]

Haha omg jeremy you gave me a lol fit at work with that one

[Visual]

Unlike my brother, I have had a pleasant experience with VD for the most part. With that being said, this just seems like a pathetic plea at getting a piece of the pie.

You disguise this as a motion to share, but in reality you got the prior two traks out of our temporary complacency and seemed to be content but once you realized that we are indeed faster and generally more skilled players (which can admittingly change over time) who can outmobilize you at the drop of a hat, you changed your tune.

While you say this is an attempt at distributing the wealth, in actuality it's just a well formulated ploy to get a share of the traks since you know in reality you will get none (1/3 is better than 0 amirite) if our guild so chooses.

disclaimer: this is just my opinion and I am in no way claiming this represents the consensus nor opinions of officers in my guild)

Thank you