Red99 Stimulus Plan (some constructive feedback)

[Dullah]

You know, I don't like exp being tampered with, because i love the classic feel... but, the first few levels could be sped up without ruining the experience. I remember thinking when i was level 3, oh fuk this is going to be hard.

Anyone whos trying to get into the game may be slightly encouraged if you reach that first spell and new skills level a bit faster to where you character comes into his own.

Drawback is, if you mess with exp, where do you draw the line. Once you change anything, then its not "classic". In the end I just say leave it. People will play or they wont, server will die or it wont, but it wont come from the exp rate. If anything the classic feel will generate more people than otherwise...

[Butthead]

You know, I don't like exp being tampered with, because i love the classic feel... but, the first few levels could be sped up without ruining the experience. I remember thinking when i was level 3, oh fuk this is going to be hard.

Anyone whos trying to get into the game may be slightly encouraged if you reach that first spell and new skills level a bit faster to where you character comes into his own.

Drawback is, if you mess with exp, where do you draw the line. Once you change anything, then its not "classic". In the end I just say leave it. People will play or they wont, server will die or it wont, but it wont come from the exp rate. If anything the classic feel will generate more people than otherwise...



maybe consider adding (parts?) of luclin? i know its risky business but maybe a FEW aa's would help? maybe make aa exp harder to get? idk.
Classic eq is bomb but not every1 will fully agree on that. we shud look into adding more content maybe to lure in more players?

if every1 recruited 1 person it could makea huugh difference...


we need to get onto eq1 / 2 and promote the server!
really any game that might have eq players needs to hear about this server.

how could we deww it?

il b uber disapointed ifi finally get 50 and jus quit cause theres no reason to play

[Steaks]

will take care of itself with increased xp , its the investment , people arent going to do it this day in age

its just the way it is

if it isnt increased things will work themselves out

if it is , things will also work themselves out , who knows how?

i sure do

[Dullah]

Obviously some will, and those who won't are most likely too flaky to hang around long anyway.

The main appeal of EQ is not the pvp, though its fun. Its the sum of its parts, a large one being that sense of accomplishment derived from leveling up. Then, acquiring rare items, and making friends and allies required to progress in both the pvp and pve facets of the game. All the parts making it the greatest MMO ever, are undermined by trivializing experience.

There may be those who feel that getting easy levels and, therefore, gear is enjoyable, but the player who is thus minded will be more likely playing a shiny new game thats built from the ground up on this principle.

[Shrubwise]

if it is , things will also work themselves out , who knows how?

i sure do

banned

[Hairybuttwhole]

Also.. I've contemplated buying Skyrim because of my unwillingness to LFG for an hour or so with no luck and soloing .003% a blue every 15 min and then rage logging because I wasted the minimal play time I had..

Is Skyrim worth it?

diablo III

[Vile]

diablo III

eta?

[Flipmode]

eta?

let me know

[stormlord]

Why does no one mention how disabling sof/uf client support might have hurt population too?

As a recap, here're some things I'd do to "stimulate" this server:
1) Remove both exp loss on pvp death and pvp item loot and instead add a pvp-points system that you can view on a website just like they did on live - can view pvp kills/death/points for players/guilds/etc
2) Add global chat (blue had it until population was about 600 or more)
3) Advertise in MMORPG forums (legally, you have to buy titanium, so advertising on free MMORPG forums is not what should be done in this case)
4) Move default bind points to guards so people cannot be bind camped by default
5) Remind people that classic EQ isn't about being level 50+; it's about 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, .. 50! You can pvp at any point in your level progression. Don't worry about 50. 50 is 1/50th of the fun.

A point I want to make about the nature of EQ...

The major problem is that EQ is a group-based game and it statically associates itself with population. This means that, given a low population, players will find it very difficult to get good experience rates and smooth progression. This, of course, leads to frustration and high attrition.

The fact that this is a pvp server makes it all worse.

You can increase the experience rate, but, if everytying else is equal, this will not solve the problem of players not being able to form groups (let alone balanced groups). Nor will it reduce corpse runs. Nor will it make the game feel more populated. Nor will it help you to get a bind or find someone to sow you or find someone to help you get your corpse. Nor will it stop you from being pvp'd. Nor will it help you to find a tracker or a porter.

Essentially, increasing experience rates is not the universal answer. Take someone doing a quest on a low population server, for example. You might increase the experience rates, but since EQ is still group-based then the player still must out-level the quest in order to do it. They do this because there're not enough people to group with. This changes how the quest will feel when you do it. Instead of hiding/sneaking/invising/mezzing/tracking/etc and working with others to attain the goal, you just slaughter most everything to get your prize. That's what happens when a group-based game is reduced to a solo-based game. It's very difficult to change hte nature of a game without starting fresh with a new slate. It's like trying to make an 80 year old 20 again. It's futile. It ends up being something that's not like a group-based adventure. Bottom line, increasing experience rates as the be-all/end-all answer is like hooking up a bad heart to a machine. While it works when the heart is bad, it might actually get in the way when the heart is good. (In a lot of ways, this reminds me of the warrior class. No matter how much you increase experience rates on emulated solo-based servers, if you don't fundamentally change warriors then a warrior is still a warrior. They can't hide/sneak. They can't invis. They can't backstab. No mezzing. They can't teleport. They can't gate. They can't root or snare. They can't sow. They can't heal. They can't track. The warrior has got to be the most boring class ever created. To fix a warrior, you got to do a hell of a lot more than increase the experience rate.)

Now, it's possible that players might stick around if they see their experience meter go up. If this is the case and the game actually gains population then my argument is that as the population goes up the experience rate should be lowered. In fact, a script or piece of code should be written to automatically increase or decrease experience rate dependent on the overall population. The reason it's important to do this is because if experience is too slow then progression is too grindy and if experience is too fast then progression is skipped altogether. You have to find a middle-ground for your audience wherein progression is stable and balanced with everything else. That requires a good grasp of everything. It should be automatic or easily applied.

There're a lot of things I could bring. There're very many useful posts in this thread. The problem is that separating the good posts from the background noise is too hard now. It's not consolidated. This thread is like a big pile of hay now and there's a needle in it somewhere. It's like walking up to a crowd of people and asking them how to save the country. Then they all shout at once. It's quickly forgotten.

[Nirgon]

From your sig: just fyi pok books f'd up pvp too.

[SamwiseRed]

pok destroyed eq. at least nexus had wait times.

[Rikimeru]

pok destroyed eq. at least nexus had wait times.

pop was worst expansion ever!!!

[Doors]

I liked PoP.

[Atmas]

pop was worst expansion ever!!!

PoP was awesome in general. PoK was stupid.

[stormlord]

From your sig: just fyi pok books f'd up pvp too.
You're right that instances and pok books and "safe" zones f'd up pvp - so to speak.

For your information, EQ was never a pvp-focused MMORPG. In fact, if I recall right, they never intended on adding pvp servers. They added em late in the cycle to cover all their bases. I think at first things were going ok, despite the obvious shortcomings. The pvp servers even had their own website section and pvp stats (that were updated daily). But as the population dwindled, which is a common trait amongst pvp-servers almost universally (except Eve-Online?), all of that hard work faded and they just decayed into the background.

It's hard to have a pvp-server. But it's not hard to have PvP content on a PvE server. Lessons learned. But, unfortunately, some people don't learn. This red p1999 is one example of how people are stubborn.

My comment in my sig meant to say that if population wasn't high enough then global chat and pok books make sense (to solve conversation and travel bottlenecks). Back when I added that to my sig, people would compare global chat to pok books and make the argument that they were bad because it made the game easier. They would say that since pok books were bad and global chat was similar, then global chat was bad too. That's in their own words (mostly). But it didn't make the game easier if the population wasn't sufficient. Rather, it made it bearable. That was what people were missing back then. That was why we saw so much mudflation on live. The Company was compensating for declining inputs of new players (in effect: a lower population). Sidenote: Mudflation is more complicated than I am making it out to be here. It might be a permanent "feature".

In review, they would say:
"Global chat is to conversation what pok books are to travel (easy!), therefore, global chat is bad!"
My reply:
"Your argument is void if population is too low."

[Slave]

Why does no one mention how disabling sof/uf client support might have hurt population too?

As a recap, here're some things I'd do to "stimulate" this server:
1) Remove both exp loss on pvp death and pvp item loot and instead add a pvp-points system that you can view on a website just like they did on live - can view pvp kills/death/points for players/guilds/etc
2) Add global chat (blue had it until population was about 600 or more)
3) Advertise in MMORPG forums (legally, you have to buy titanium, so advertising on free MMORPG forums is not what should be done in this case)
4) Move default bind points to guards so people cannot be bind camped by default
5) Remind people that classic EQ isn't about being level 50+; it's about 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, .. 50! You can pvp at any point in your level progression. Don't worry about 50. 50 is 1/50th of the fun.

A point I want to make about the nature of EQ...

The major problem is that EQ is a group-based game and it statically associates itself with population. This means that, given a low population, players will find it very difficult to get good experience rates and smooth progression. This, of course, leads to frustration and high attrition.

The fact that this is a pvp server makes it all worse.

You can increase the experience rate, but, if everytying else is equal, this will not solve the problem of players not being able to form groups (let alone balanced groups). Nor will it reduce corpse runs. Nor will it make the game feel more populated. Nor will it help you to get a bind or find someone to sow you or find someone to help you get your corpse. Nor will it stop you from being pvp'd. Nor will it help you to find a tracker or a porter.

Essentially, increasing experience rates is not the universal answer. Take someone doing a quest on a low population server, for example. You might increase the experience rates, but since EQ is still group-based then the player still must out-level the quest in order to do it. They do this because there're not enough people to group with. This changes how the quest will feel when you do it. Instead of hiding/sneaking/invising/mezzing/tracking/etc and working with others to attain the goal, you just slaughter most everything to get your prize. That's what happens when a group-based game is reduced to a solo-based game. It's very difficult to change hte nature of a game without starting fresh with a new slate. It's like trying to make an 80 year old 20 again. It's futile. It ends up being something that's notlike a group-based adventure. Bottom line, increasing experience rates as the be-all/end-all answer is like hooking up a bad heart to a machine. While it works when the heart is bad, it might actually get in the way when the heart is good. (In a lot of ways, this reminds me of the warrior class. No matter how much you increase experience rates on emulated solo-based servers, if you don't fundamentally change warriors then a warrior is still a warrior. They can't hide/sneak. They can't invis. They can't backstab. No mezzing. They can't teleport. They can't gate. They can't root or snare. They can't sow. They can't heal. They can't track. The warrior has got to be the most boring class ever created. To fix a warrior, you got to do a hell of a lot more than increase the experience rate.)

Now, it's possible that players might stick around if they see their experience meter go up. If this is the case and the game actually gains population then my argument is that as the population goes up the experience rate should be lowered. In fact, a script or piece of code should be written to automatically increase or decrease experience rate dependent on the overall population. The reason it's important to do this is because if experience is too slow then progression is too grindy and if experience is too fast then progression is skipped altogether. You have to find a middle-ground for your audience wherein progression is stable and balanced with everything else. That requires a good grasp of everything. It should be automatic or easily applied.

There're a lot of things I could bring. There're very many useful posts in this thread. The problem is that separating the good posts from the background noise is too hard now. It's not consolidated. This thread is like a big pile of hay now and there's a needle in it somewhere. It's like walking up to a crowd of people and asking them how to save the country. Then they all shout at once. It's quickly forgotten.

I bolded the part up near the top of your post where I said, "what the hell?" and stopped reading. It's almost as much as I can take to devote time and energy just towards people who have played on the server, let alone armchair geeks who have never once even logged in and at least attempted to see what it was all about.

[Rikimeru]

PoP was awesome in general. PoK was stupid.

safe zones, insta teleport(pok books) around the world for everyone....WORST EXPANSION EVER!!!!

[Butthead]

135 ppl on red99...
455 on blu


lol its like our economy here in america.. wer watching everything goto shit but cant do anything about it?

iv brought it up in guild chat and /ooc, and ppl seem to either say "oo everythings fine" or my favorite, "na its not low, its perfect"

blaming the holidays is ass backwards too. iv played games since i could walk, and Every year over the xmas break, Everryone is online playing games lol. after the holidays pass and the work week starts again, thats wen ppl go missing from games.

was the pvp too much for ppl so they all went back to blue?
(lol and to think i wanted no level limit in pvp like sullon zek, pffffft..)

lets all recruit atleast 1 person to play again. atleast maybe it'll help?
wats guna happen when hots and d3 come out?
and even tho every1 said ToR was guna bomb, every1 seems to like it.

my friend says its 80% clone of wow lol. yet ppl like it.

WTF ARE WE GUNA DEWWW

[HippoNipple]

135 ppl on red99...
blaming the holidays is ass backwards too. iv played games since i could walk, and Every year over the xmas break, Everryone is online playing games lol. after the holidays pass and the work week starts again, thats wen ppl go missing from games.


xmas break is for children

this game came out over 12 years ago

people that play here are old

people that are old are busy around holidays

mother no longer baking all of us cookies and bringing us toys from santa while we play video games for 3 weeks straight

[Lazortag]

135 ppl on red99...
455 on blu


lol its like our economy here in america.. wer watching everything goto shit but cant do anything about it?

iv brought it up in guild chat and /ooc, and ppl seem to either say "oo everythings fine" or my favorite, "na its not low, its perfect"

blaming the holidays is ass backwards too. iv played games since i could walk, and Every year over the xmas break, Everryone is online playing games lol. after the holidays pass and the work week starts again, thats wen ppl go missing from games.

was the pvp too much for ppl so they all went back to blue?
(lol and to think i wanted no level limit in pvp like sullon zek, pffffft..)

lets all recruit atleast 1 person to play again. atleast maybe it'll help?
wats guna happen when hots and d3 come out?
and even tho every1 said ToR was guna bomb, every1 seems to like it.

my friend says its 80% clone of wow lol. yet ppl like it.

WTF ARE WE GUNA DEWWW

Another quality post from "Butthead".

[oldfish]

Ok, im gonna try to be utterly constructive cuz i do care about the server and hope it gets better so i can play on it. Im gonna see this as if i was running the server, what would i do to bring the server back on track:

---

1 - Agree with suggestion to make 1-20 faster, and boost xp there, so settling on the server, especially for people new to EQ, doesnt feel like a hammer blow to the face. Keep the rest of the game like it is, the grind is fine if you can mix it with pvp on a regular basis. This would also let people mess around with alts when they feel bored. Maybe gradually make xp close to classic as you reach 16-17-18-19 so it doesnt feel like BAM XP WALL when you ding 20.

---

2 - Remove XP loss entirely for pvp deaths. This will foster pvp and make the server more action oriented and fun, and will let people take breaks from the big PVE grind without getting discouraged. People will still be able to decide who gets to poopsock when, it will just be an endurance test now. This will remove the overwhelming power zergs have over camps. They will still be powerful, but not as much. I think one of the reason people were able to race to 50 that fast and beg for new content a month later is because pvp didnt happen often because of xp loss. People say XP loss is a non-issue, i disagree. Bindrushing is a non-issue. Ask that guy who thought he was gonna be funny and "bindrush" over and over and a tracker found him in 5mins and now theyre making him camp by bindkilling him over and over. Bindrushing is a non-issue, invented by people who want to import poopsocking mechanics over to red. This will also make gear progression slower. It will be much harder to camp raid content without xp loss, and will make getting items all the more rewarding and cool.

After reading Humerox's reply, im gonna add: Revert the xp loss into what it was on Rallos: Respawn with low (no?) mana and health. That way you can get a drink, piss, etc and come back to game to play again. This is much better than putting people in xp debt. Ironically, you also have to be more careful about where you bind because you spawn with low status bars and you cant start moving as soon as you spawn. Maybe respawn with a bit more health and mana on a pvp death than it was on Rallos, as i remember an ~8min wait for my bars to fill on a level 12 wizard.

The only place where i could maybe agree on xp loss is raiding zones. But even then im not sure because it would make zerg guilds get content close to 100% of the times, so its debatable.

As someone best said it: "Wait, people are pushing for "Nah sorry i cant contest Trakanon i dont wanna delevel to 59" ?"

---

3 - Make some Hot zones. Added XP and money (Something like 20%). Have maybe 3 zone sets like this, one for 1-20, one for 21-40 and one for 40-50. This will bottleneck PVP. Maybe even some custom mobs event.

This would still be kept sorta classic as per the 2001 Halloween event, which to me was my best MMO experience, ever. If you have access to the no drop gear those halloween mobs dropped and to the models/graphics etc, this would be an awesome way to make some hot zone events. Like the undead dragon in rathe, spectres in EK and shit like that. I would even be down to add custom events if devs cant access the halloween shit. Fighting twinks when i started out on Rallos was so hard i almost quit. The main reason i stayed on server is i succeeded in getting 8-9 no drop gear pieces on halloween that made me be able to handle twinks more. As the server gets older, these events where noobs can get nodrop gear will give a goal to new blood entering the server and help them feel they wont have to remain twink fodder forever.

I would have the hotzones on a daily basis, and the events maybe once a week, 2 weeks or each month.

---

4 - Patch in voluntary item loss to test the waters. Let players turn in an item at an NPC, which will make them "Dark red". Dark red players can be looted by other Dark Red players, and can loot other Dark Red players.

In order for the mechanic to kick in, dark red players have to do 70%+ damage on a player to prevent 5v1 with only 1 dark red player gank squads (to be tweaked with feedback). The looter gets all the coin +1 item the wearer didnt bag before dying. Im not suggesting "dark red" players be actually identifiable (such as with level con). It would be up to players to discover whos lootable and whos not, again, fostering PVP.

This could be reversible, but on a long timer (Like you get a message saying "In a week you will be back to regular red" or something)

---

5- View opinions from people whose main fun you can tell is griefing people off the server or poopsocking with a heavy dose of grains of salt.

[Humerox]

I would agree with removing XP loss on death if casters respawned with 0 mana upon PvP death.

Item loss is fine if both players have elected it. Someone suggested turning in the Discord book.

Item loss is too harsh imo though...the lack of available gear and the cost to replace what you can get is too high. The amount of ragequitting would skyrocket, imo.

Hotzones and increased xp 1-20 I fully support.

[Vile]

hot zones plz

[funhorroryes]

i agree with everything searyx said.

People are more likely to get under 15 then any other level.

what the fuck is an extra 10 hours onto the combined totals of the hell levels

could save the server.

im not playing atm, its just too fucking hard and boring. everyones a mage

[funhorroryes]

i agree with everything searyx said.

People are more likely to get quit under 15 then any other level.

what the fuck is an extra 10 hours onto the combined totals of the hell levels

could save the server.

im not playing atm, its just too fucking hard and boring. everyones a mage

[Softcore PK]

big text

Good post, oldfish. I agree with a lot of this. Hotzones, and respawning with 0 zero mana should go in imo. And your comment about maybe including xp loss in just raid zones made me think..

Because xp loss at max level is not at all a deterrent. You're already there, and you still have to camp items and kill things with friends to progress, so you're gaining xp always and getting nothing from it. Even pve deaths at max level are usually not a big deal.

And since this server is going to be top-heavy (kinda already is lol), we could probably use some other form of pvp death penalty. As things are, bindrushers 1-49 are penalized (slightly), but max level bindrushers really aren't. Maybe at level 50, a pvp death should be the same xp loss as a pve death? Or half of that?

[Slave]

I would agree with removing XP loss on death if casters respawned with 0 mana upon PvP death.

Item loss is fine if both players have elected it. Someone suggested turning in the Discord book.

Item loss is too harsh imo though...the lack of available gear and the cost to replace what you can get is too high. The amount of ragequitting would skyrocket, imo.


Items are a lot easier to get off players than off monsters. 10 minutes of PvP vs 10 hours of a camp. The PvP will increase if item loot is added; more people will attack each other hoping for a windfall. The server will finally differentiate itself from Blue99. All good things.

Item Loot for President.

[oldfish]

And since this server is going to be top-heavy (kinda already is lol), we could probably use some other form of pvp death penalty. As things are, bindrushers 1-49 are penalized (slightly), but max level bindrushers really aren't. Maybe at level 50, a pvp death should be the same xp loss as a pve death? Or half of that?

I just dont get why you want to inflict such a harsh penalty over dying in pvp. The only reason i can think of is you want some kind of poopcamp control mechanic.

Problem with going along with that, is if you get a Zerg guild with 2X the numbers of players than the rest of any guild on the server, its basically GG for the server, they get the content, every time, no contest.

You cant attempt a 25v45 raid content contest with a heavy xp loss. People will do it a couple of times, get burned and give up (which is what you want i guess). Each time people will get burned, the harder it will be to gather enough people to try to contest raid content the next time.

With no xp loss, the 25 players will probably get their asses handed to them, but at least they get to have fun attempting to do it, and the 45 side can at least have some opposition, which is what a pvp server is supposed to be about.

Heavy xp loss is a surefire recipe to get people bored and logging off the server. This is true through all levels of the game.

[Humerox]

Items are a lot easier to get off players than off monsters. 10 minutes of PvP vs 10 hours of a camp. The PvP will increase if item loot is added; more people will attack each other hoping for a windfall. The server will finally differentiate itself from Blue99. All good things.

Item Loot for President.

But it also would effectively negate the anti-pk game...sustainability in the R99 economy isn't what is was on RZ. Item loot would be much more acceptable after the server has aged.

don't u see how item loot would be detrimental at this stage of the server?

[Doublestep]

spear of the nation would transform into PVP Trade Federation if item loot was out

[Humerox]

spear of the nation would transform into PVP Trade Federation if item loot was out

and camp what? Runnyeye?

:P

[Doublestep]

you guys would just let everyone else clear dragons then wipe em

[Doublestep]

sell them back their gear at a 100% markup from trade forum

[oldfish]

you guys would just let everyone else clear dragons then wipe em

Or you could just fuck off to SWTOR and not pollute the one thread thats useful

[Humerox]

we're talking about this stage of the server lol.

the only guilds dragon capable atm are Holo and Nihi

there's legitimacy to the item loot thing. i'm pro item loot myself. the problem is, people don't see the forest for the trees. item loot may work for Holo and Nihi atm, but everyone else would be stuck wearing cloth at the end of the day.

i don't think some people are actually trolling...i just think they dont understand all the implications item loot would have right now. for most, replacing that robe some twink alt just took off them while they were lom and blissfully medding with their group would take a month of farming to replace. and it's not like NFP is full of traders, either.

has anyone looked at what people are wearing right now? sans twinks, Holo and Nihi that is.

[Doublestep]

Or you could just fuck off to SWTOR and not pollute the one thread thats useful

wow bro calm down im allowed to browse the forums while im on lunch

[Slave]

But it also would effectively negate the anti-pk game...sustainability in the R99 economy isn't what is was on RZ. Item loot would be much more acceptable after the server has aged.

don't u see how item loot would be detrimental at this stage of the server?

Er... what?

The anti-pk game would finally be firmly established: PKs are usually those with more skill and items trying to impose their lulz on weaker players. The antis gang up, finally kill the nasty PK and get to loot an item off him like he was a boss mob. This is all good for the antis, and for the server as a whole. More reason to PvP = more PvP.

There is no reason to PvP currently other than the lulz. There is no item loot mechanic, no teams, no mana loss on death... it's exactly as if nobody on the development team ever played on a PvP server, and then ignored anyone who ever did.

This is not what it was like in The Year 2000. This is not classic Everquest PvP. THIS IS WHY the server is drastically falling in population on a noticeably daily basis.

[Doublestep]

i actually think it would be awesome if there was some big mean ass "Mountain" that beat up all the little kiddos into forming a raid to take him down and claim his sword

jk primes cant be looted

[oldfish]

There is no item loot mechanic, no teams, no mana loss on death... it's exactly as if nobody on the development team ever played on a PvP server, and then ignored anyone who ever did.

This is not what it was like in The Year 2000. This is not classic Everquest PvP.

I will agree on the no item loot, but the rest is just complaining the devs dont see things your way. No teams = not classic? LOL

Youre trolling Slave, and I think Nilbog is getting fed up with people stirring shit up for the sake of stirring shit up, i smell a ban.

[Softcore PK]

I just dont get why you want to inflict such a harsh penalty over dying in pvp. The only reason i can think of is you want some kind of poopcamp control mechanic.

Problem with going along with that, is if you get a Zerg guild with 2X the numbers of players than the rest of any guild on the server, its basically GG for the server, they get the content, every time, no contest.

You cant attempt a 25v45 raid content contest with a heavy xp loss. People will do it a couple of times, get burned and give up (which is what you want i guess). Each time people will get burned, the harder it will be to gather enough people to try to contest raid content the next time.

With no xp loss, the 25 players will probably get their asses handed to them, but at least they get to have fun attempting to do it, and the 45 side can at least have some opposition, which is what a pvp server is supposed to be about.

Heavy xp loss is a surefire recipe to get people bored and logging off the server. This is true through all levels of the game.

This is probably true, exp loss like that really would discourage pvp. I'm just trying to think of ways to deter bindrushing at max level, because judging by the rants forum it IS starting to happen a lot. Do you have any ideas?

[Humerox]

Er... what?

The anti-pk game would finally be firmly established: PKs are usually those with more skill and items trying to impose their lulz on weaker players. The antis gang up, finally kill the nasty PK and get to loot an item off him like he was a boss mob. This is all good for the antis, and for the server as a whole. More reason to PvP = more PvP.

That all sounds good bro, but it ain't gonna happen. The server would die for an ideal.

[Humerox]

This is probably true, exp loss like that really would discourage pvp. I'm just trying to think of ways to deter bindrushing at max level, because judging by the rants forum it IS starting to happen a lot. Do you have any idea?

minimal health and mana on respawn due to pvp death...suggested earlier in this thread i think...

[oldfish]

This is probably true, exp loss like that really would discourage pvp. I'm just trying to think of ways to deter bindrushing at max level, because judging by the rants forum it IS starting to happen a lot. Do you have any ideas?

If you read my big post, "bindrushing" is part of my solution to make the server fun again. That people cant dispatch opposition lower in numbers in a matter of a couple of tries and carry on poopsocking for hours.

[Softcore PK]

minimal health and mana on respawn due to pvp death...suggested earlier in this thread i think...

When I think of bindrushing, I think of someone coming back to the same fight within an hour. Guess those of us on VZ were a little spoiled :P

[oldfish]

When I think of bindrushing, I think of someone coming back to the same fight within an hour. Guess those of us on VZ were a little spoiled :P

That right there is the frequency of pvp that softcore feels is fun vs pve. One pvp fight per hour. A what, 5/60 ratio? This is a blubie talking.

[Slave]

minimal health and mana on respawn due to pvp death...suggested earlier in this thread i think...

You know, like it used to be In The Year 2000.

That all sounds good bro, but it ain't gonna happen. The server would die for an ideal.

Servers die because they don't go far enough. The most Classic server we have now is Blue99 and see all the success it's had. I have no idea how we think a PvP server with Play Nice Policy is going to thrive. That's just totally counterintuitive. It's like prison, where you have other inmates trying to kill you and the GMs as the wardens telling you what you can and can't do to defend yourself.

From what I hear, prison isn't very fun.

[Softcore PK]

If you read my big post, "bindrushing" is part of my solution to make the server fun again. That people cant dispatch opposition lower in numbers in a matter of a couple of tries and carry on poopsocking for hours.

That doesn't make any sense at all to me, because it works both ways. When the outnumbered players DO win, their enemies will then bindrush and take the camp back anyway. Not bindrushing should be common decency imo :/

[Softcore PK]

That right there is the frequency of pvp that softcore feels is fun vs pve. One pvp fight per hour. A what, 5/60 ratio? This is a blubie talking.

One fight between the same two parties per hour. Winner wins, loser loses and doesn't act childish about it.

[Humerox]

Servers die because they don't go far enough. The most Classic server we have now is Blue99 and see all the success it's had. I have no idea how we think a PvP server with Play Nice Policy is going to thrive. That's just totally counterintuitive. It's like prison, where you have other inmates trying to kill you and the GMs as the wardens telling you what you can and can't do to defend yourself.

From what I hear, prison isn't very fun.

The problem with item loot right now is replacement. I'll quote myself cuz it's already buried.

we're talking about this stage of the server lol.

the only guilds dragon capable atm are Holo and Nihi

there's legitimacy to the item loot thing. i'm pro item loot myself. the problem is, people don't see the forest for the trees. item loot may work for Holo and Nihi atm, but everyone else would be stuck wearing cloth at the end of the day.

i don't think some people are actually trolling...i just think they dont understand all the implications item loot would have right now. for most, replacing that robe some twink alt just took off them while they were lom and blissfully medding with their group would take a month of farming to replace. and it's not like NFP is full of traders, either.

[Slave]

One fight between the same two parties per hour. Winner wins, loser loses and doesn't act childish about it.

Or at least with mana loss on death, the victors can cement their victory and live the good life for 10-20 minutes after what is usually 10+ minutes of combat.

[Slave]

The problem with item loot right now is replacement. I'll quote myself cuz it's already buried.

It's not as if the item disappears; it goes to another player. So you see, it's still on the server, ready to be PK'd and won by anyone with enough organization and balls to ambush just 1 guy.

Even more importantly, it's FUN.

[oldfish]

That doesn't make any sense at all to me, because it works both ways. When the outnumbered players DO win, their enemies will then bindrush and take the camp back anyway. Not bindrushing should be common decency imo :/

This is how i see it:

Scenario 1: XP pvp loss that stings.

Guy attempts 1v3 because its late and nothings going on. He gets killed a couple of times, looks at his xp bar, says fuck this shit and logs off. The group keeps poopsocking.

Scenario 2: No XP pvp loss.

Guy attempts 1v3 because its late and nothings going on. He has fun for a couple of hours, the attacked group has to either stop leveling to deal with the guy (which can be fun), carry on leveling with a player add (which can be fun and challenging) or move somewhere else (low chance of this happening since they got the upper hand).

Everybody has fun for an hour or 2 (im taking a really wild guess here and assume that people playing on a PVP server enjoy PVP and arent just blues looking for a way to control camps that doesnt involve effort and GMs) and the bored guy can resume PVE the next day at the same point he was before he started to pvp.

[Humerox]

It's not as if the item disappears; it goes to another player. So you see, it's still on the server, ready to be PK'd and won by anyone with enough organization and balls to ambush just 1 guy.

right...now think about what goes on from the lower to mid-levels. most low-enders can't even find groups, let alone organize against a twink that just rotfl curb-stomped them.

how is item loot going to keep them playing, especially when it becomes necessary topk for loot instead of grouping to get loot. and since no one pve's anymore, where will the new stuff come from?

pvp demands pve

[Cast]

dude STOP WITH XP LOSS FROM PVP.. NO ONE CARES BUT YOU

[Slave]

right...now think about what goes on from the lower to mid-levels. most low-enders can't even find groups, let alone organize against a twink that just rotfl curb-stomped them.

And yet this is exactly what most of the server did with most of their time on Rallos Zek. We had a ton of fun while doing it too, spawning a whole generation of gamers who loved the Item Loot paradigm that we saw in games like Shadowbane and Darkfall.

[oldfish]

dude STOP WITH XP LOSS FROM PVP.. NO ONE CARES BUT YOU

If you wanna troll me, keep it to rants and flames or Off topic. No one cares about your trolling, that im pretty sure, especially not in a constructive thread about feedback in which your only input is "No one cares but you".

I read this today:

Everytime I engage in PVP all I think about is, wow it's really going to suck grinding this EXP back later. Even with the 25% bonus exp was still too slow. This is coming from an embarrassed diaperquester who has spent way too much time on this server trying to get to 50 and is now finally a level away. God help me had I rolled a hybrid or a troll. I got literally 0% movement in 45 killing dark blue mobs solo. It took 2 mobs to get a tick.

Now fuck off elsewhere please.

[Humerox]

And yet this is exactly what most of the server did with most of their time on Rallos Zek. We had a ton of fun while doing it too, spawning a whole generation of gamers who loved the Item Loot paradigm that we saw in games like Shadowbane and Darkfall.

Rallos started with a different mind-set. Most starting here want to PK for loot if item looting is in. The percentage of griefers was much lower back in early RZ. People banded together because EQ was still fresh at the time, and the mentality that dominates here did not dominate there.

see the difference?

[Slave]

Rallos started with a different mind-set. Most starting here want to PK for loot if item looting is in. The percentage of griefers was much lower back in early RZ. People banded together because EQ was still fresh at the time, and the mentality that dominates here did not dominate there.

see the difference?

I see that you are trying to qualify your statements and 'win' the discussion! :P

The important thing is for everyone to win by having a sustained, high population engaging in fun activities. This includes adding a more entertaining model for PvP such as Item Loot, Teams, and removing the Play Nice Policy so creative individuals can compete with larger groups.

[Softcore PK]

I kinda like to think of pvp in a rp sense.. and when people die, I feel they should be dead and not bother us. Oldfish, you and I are both just wanting what we had on live lol. VZ = everyone always LnSed, except people who were known griefers and were never allowed in any guilds or xp groups. RZ I guess = everyone bindrushed.

xp loss as it is now, is i guess a compromise.

People still bindrush, but they are penalized for it.

[HippoNipple]

Rallos started with a different mind-set. Most starting here want to PK for loot if item looting is in. The percentage of griefers was much lower back in early RZ. People banded together because EQ was still fresh at the time, and the mentality that dominates here did not dominate there.

see the difference?

Yeah, when you have someone that is willing to level up as a "spy" in another guild it is clear that people will not stop until they are assured they have ruined someone else's time. It could take these people 30 hours to grief someone out of 30 minutes and it would be worth it to them - that is tough to get around with item loot rules while keeping a population. Item loot was the best PvP experience for me on EQ but it takes an abundance of normal people to pull it off. I'm the only normal person on this server.

[Slave]

I'm the only normal person on this server.

I feel strange quoting a guy named HippoNipple on this. lol

[Clownface]

Im not gonna read through 56 pages.

Did anything come of this thread?

Did a GM ever reply? Is low end xp going up?

If so, i might put more time into this server.

[SearyxTZ]

Im not gonna read through 56 pages.

Did anything come of this thread?

Did a GM ever reply? Is low end xp going up?

No + it got derailed hard.

http://i.imgur.com/HUzdF.gif

[Nirgon]

such a harsh penalty over dying in pvp


Oh brother.

[LizardNecro]

For what it's worth I just wanted to say that the teams experience was a very fundamental part of the draw and immersion for me in Sullon Zek.

I had previously considered a zek server, but I didn't like the cross teaming in TZ/VZ and the out of range healing problem of RZ (and others).

When I started on SZ, I had strong incentives to help and group with other people on my team. I went out of my way to help people CR, help them camp, and other EQ grouping activities. The reason was, I knew that one day I might be in trouble, and I would really need their help. I also liked the idea that my enemies were enemies. I didn't have to worry about pissing off a player that might end up being in my guild one day. People on my team were friends, all others were enemies. It really contributed to my investment, and the friendships I made on SZ were much more powerful than the associations I had on blue servers. My SZ teammates were people that had gone through hell to help me, and I had gone through hell to help them too.

I think having three teams was a great idea, but on a private emu server, it should be two. I think teams would really help at low levels. It sounds paradoxical -- aren't you dividing the population in two? Yes, but now there is a fundamental reason to group within that population. You need these people!

Anyways, just wanted to jump in and give that perspective.

[Nirgon]

I rolled all the way up to 52 there don't get me wrong. But when there was just less people for me to kill, I was quickly turned off.

Correction: to have the OPTION to kill. And sometimes I really wanted that option. Bad.

[LizardNecro]

Yes Nirgon, part of why I left was that after a while, it just became impossible to find people to kill. I think a big reason for that was just that the world became so big after a while, the population was distributed over too large an area. I think this started becoming a big problem in Luclin. And then of course, when PoP came out, the books make PvP impossible in the old world.

I don't want to derail the thread into a misty eyed reminiscence of SZ, I just wanted to say that I think teams would truly draw people together. Oh, and I also agree with making xp less onerous at lower levels. I think at high levels it was fun to have pvp xp loss, as it kept people "honest" (you couldn't just rush someone over and over again, that would be a lot of xp loss. But a couple of deaths were np, if you had a cleric! )

[Nirgon]

Too late to do teams bud.

Not to mention who wants to be the team without Ogres or SKs? Or most of the shaman races? Or the best monk race in Kunark? Hint: these are all on the same team.

[heartbrand]

This server needs yellow text bad. I really don't get why this isn't implemented already.

[Emoteen]

I played on SZ on the good team. We were 10% of the population.

No Ogres.
No Trolls.
No Iksar.
No Necro or SK.


Most fun I've ever had.

[Tombom]

I played on SZ on the good team. We were 10% of the population.

No Ogres.
No Trolls.
No Iksar.
No Necro or SK.


Most fun I've ever had.

this man has the sullonzek spirit in him!

[Slave]

Too late to do teams bud.

Not to mention who wants to be the team without Ogres or SKs? Or most of the shaman races? Or the best monk race in Kunark? Hint: these are all on the same team.

You just balance the teams ------->

-Teams:
Ogre/Wood Elf/High Elves/Dark Elves VS
Humans/Barbarians/Erudites/Dwarves VS
Trolls/Gnomes/Halflings/Half-Elves

OR

Ogre, Wood Elf, High Elf, Dark Elf, Half-Elf, Dwarf VS
Troll, Barbarian, Erudite, Human, Gnome, Halfling.

[Nirgon]

Oh ya most fun you ever had.

[Nulak]

Yeah lets do team when its already a pain in the ass to find a grp...

[Softcore PK]

I think good teams could be like SZ, but neutral and good combined together.

[Rikimeru]

This server needs yellow text bad. I really don't get why this isn't implemented already.

other that its totally unnecessary waste of time? haha like people are going to be like "omg red99 has yellow text lets join!!!!" it will just be worthless crap spamming up my windows.

[gloinz]

I think good teams could be like SZ, but neutral and good combined together.

pfft newts dont need goodies as dead weight

[ZEROSUM]

fat loots no noots hoot hoots

[Slave]

Whichever mode for teams - the SZ-style with the thematic "Evil sv Good" or the "Balanced for PvP" style, either should serve to revive the server, as long as we can implement this system for players to become more invested in the world.

[Rikimeru]

Whichever mode for teams - the SZ-style with the thematic "Evil sv Good" or the "Balanced for PvP" style, either should serve to revive the server, as long as we can implement this system for players to become more invested in the world.

teams ftw!!!

[Danien]

I've always been a strong advocate of teams

[xblade724]

Too late for teams, underpopulated for teams, get it out of your mind ;p

[oldfish]

Ok, im gonna try to be utterly constructive cuz i do care about the server and hope it gets better so i can play on it. Im gonna see this as if i was running the server, what would i do to bring the server back on track:

---

1 - Agree with suggestion to make 1-20 faster, and boost xp there, so settling on the server, especially for people new to EQ, doesnt feel like a hammer blow to the face. Keep the rest of the game like it is, the grind is fine if you can mix it with pvp on a regular basis. This would also let people mess around with alts when they feel bored. Maybe gradually make xp close to classic as you reach 16-17-18-19 so it doesnt feel like BAM XP WALL when you ding 20.

---

2 - Remove XP loss entirely for pvp deaths. This will foster pvp and make the server more action oriented and fun, and will let people take breaks from the big PVE grind without getting discouraged. People will still be able to decide who gets to poopsock when, it will just be an endurance test now. This will remove the overwhelming power zergs have over camps. They will still be powerful, but not as much. I think one of the reason people were able to race to 50 that fast and beg for new content a month later is because pvp didnt happen often because of xp loss. People say XP loss is a non-issue, i disagree. Bindrushing is a non-issue. Ask that guy who thought he was gonna be funny and "bindrush" over and over and a tracker found him in 5mins and now theyre making him camp by bindkilling him over and over. Bindrushing is a non-issue, invented by people who want to import poopsocking mechanics over to red. This will also make gear progression slower. It will be much harder to camp raid content without xp loss, and will make getting items all the more rewarding and cool.

After reading Humerox's reply, im gonna add: Revert the xp loss into what it was on Rallos: Respawn with low (no?) mana and health. That way you can get a drink, piss, etc and come back to game to play again. This is much better than putting people in xp debt. Ironically, you also have to be more careful about where you bind because you spawn with low status bars and you cant start moving as soon as you spawn. Maybe respawn with a bit more health and mana on a pvp death than it was on Rallos, as i remember an ~8min wait for my bars to fill on a level 12 wizard.

The only place where i could maybe agree on xp loss is raiding zones. But even then im not sure because it would make zerg guilds get content close to 100% of the times, so its debatable.

As someone best said it: "Wait, people are pushing for "Nah sorry i cant contest Trakanon i dont wanna delevel to 59" ?"

---

3 - Make some Hot zones. Added XP and money (Something like 20%). Have maybe 3 zone sets like this, one for 1-20, one for 21-40 and one for 40-50. This will bottleneck PVP. Maybe even some custom mobs event.

This would still be kept sorta classic as per the 2001 Halloween event, which to me was my best MMO experience, ever. If you have access to the no drop gear those halloween mobs dropped and to the models/graphics etc, this would be an awesome way to make some hot zone events. Like the undead dragon in rathe, spectres in EK and shit like that. I would even be down to add custom events if devs cant access the halloween shit. Fighting twinks when i started out on Rallos was so hard i almost quit. The main reason i stayed on server is i succeeded in getting 8-9 no drop gear pieces on halloween that made me be able to handle twinks more. As the server gets older, these events where noobs can get nodrop gear will give a goal to new blood entering the server and help them feel they wont have to remain twink fodder forever.

I would have the hotzones on a daily basis, and the events maybe once a week, 2 weeks or each month.

---

4 - Patch in voluntary item loss to test the waters. Let players turn in an item at an NPC, which will make them "Dark red". Dark red players can be looted by other Dark Red players, and can loot other Dark Red players.

In order for the mechanic to kick in, dark red players have to do 70%+ damage on a player to prevent 5v1 with only 1 dark red player gank squads (to be tweaked with feedback). The looter gets all the coin +1 item the wearer didnt bag before dying. Im not suggesting "dark red" players be actually identifiable (such as with level con). It would be up to players to discover whos lootable and whos not, again, fostering PVP.

This could be reversible, but on a long timer (Like you get a message saying "In a week you will be back to regular red" or something)

---

5- View opinions from people whose main fun you can tell is griefing people off the server or poopsocking with a heavy dose of grains of salt.

So... how 'bout it? If xp loss was removed id make an alt right today :/

[Steaks]

stop bumping this no one cares

[Humerox]

Yah we do.

:)

[Butthead]

Whichever mode for teams - the SZ-style with the thematic "Evil sv Good" or the "Balanced for PvP" style, either should serve to revive the server, as long as we can implement this system for players to become more invested in the world.



that woulda been beyond boss lol. they even coulda had zone control like sz. you could actually see on a map which side controlled which terriority.
god those days wer so fucking good.


it woulda been Amazing if they had put it in at LAUNCH!!!
every1s alrdy came n went lol. theres like 20% left on server... =\

i doubt many would agree with Another change tho. seems like they put zero thought into this server lol.
i dont wna b disrespectful to the people who are tryin to bring back eq1 but ffs man. i thought ther was a small dev team and a handful of gms?

wat ru guys doing everryday? did they all go back to blue too?!


that first week wen red99 launched was beyond amazing. i Thought eq1 pvp was actually guna become alive again. 64 people killin in nektulos lol <3
Floppppp.

annd then there wer none.

[HarrisonIsStillPosting]

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