Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[MossyG]

Hey Shamans,

I'm looking at making an iksar shaman because I think they look cool, but wanted to get some experienced solo shamans takes first.
Is missing out on JBB going to hinder me on any solo challenges or is it mostly just for powerleveling yourself?

Cheers Nerds!

[Toxigen]

lack of JBB wont hinder any solo challenges its not needed for anything at 60 w/ a full spell kit

its great for leveling but you're better off finding a geared monk or warrior to duo with and not ever clicking it anyway

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As Toxigen said, JBB isn't necessary for any endgame content.

I still use mine at 60, JBB isn't just for powerleveling. Saving spell slots is always very nice on a Shaman.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - An example of using JBB on Cliff Golems. I did 5000ish damage with JBB, which is 1/6th of it's life.

[MossyG]

Thanks for the info guys! Not worried about missing out on the convenience. I just didnt want to be hindered end game :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks for the info guys! Not worried about missing out on the convenience. I just didnt want to be hindered end game :)

No problem! Good luck with your new Shaman. They are a ton of fun.

[Troxx]

I had a JBB and was a race that could click it.

I sold my JBB because, at 60, it wasn’t worth it.

You aren’t missing out.

It’s a cheese tool for levels 45-51. After that … who cares.

you're better off finding a geared monk or warrior to duo with and not ever clicking it anyway

This.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s a cheese tool for levels 45-51. After that … who cares.


It isn't. JBB will level you from 45-60 easily if you can't afford an Epic. It's still useful at 60, I use it quite a bit. This is a common misconception from people who haven't played their Shaman's enough, or just never had a JBB.

[Tann]

I had a JBB and was a race that could click it.

I sold my JBB because, at 60, it wasn’t worth it.

You aren’t missing out.

It’s a cheese tool for levels 45-51. After that … who cares.

As an Iksar shaman (fashion > JBB), I approve this message.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As an Iksar shaman (fashion > JBB), I approve this message.

It is fine to prefer fashion over function. Nothing wrong with that!

Saying JBB is only useful from levels 45-51 is simply false though. If you don't have Epic, JBB is going to level you faster than root rotting from 45-60. It just saves you so much mana when leveling, which reduces downtime so you can kill more things per hour. Once you hit 60 it is still useful too. You can finish off mobs that are almost dead instead of wasting mana on a fresh DoT. You can add damage to a long fight like WW Dragons when all of your DoTs/Debuffs are already applied and you have nothing else to cast at the time. It is great for killing lower level mobs if you are doing something like farming Droga for Salts/Skins.

[Snaggles]

Usually between understating and overstating the middle has some truth. If you have an epic, fungi, and especially at 60 with torp it has limited appeal. Until then to kill a 4.5k hp solo with bane it’s going to take your pet and two casts, maybe an ebolt finisher. Thats like 1200 mana with root. Otherwise 30 mana roots and it’s 17 clicks. Which is annoying but likely more efficient.

I bought and sold mine a few times. I pushed to 60 on a single spawn every 7 mins. Dots work fine. A melee partner is even better. A JBB is a handy tool. If you add a melee most the shaman tricks aren’t quite as necessary. If you can slow it and can keep up with heals it doesn’t matter what your other gear is, if you have an epic, or a JBB. The thing is gonna die.

Ultimately play what you like the most. Whether the look of the char or knowing you have some intrinsic perks. Either way you are content with the char and that’s what matters. You have to slog through the levels after all :)

[Naethyn]

https://wiki.project1999.com/images/Iksar_spirit_weaver.png

[Toxigen]

iksar shaman best shaman

[zelld52]

idk barbarian has pretty neat fashion, too.

but no tail, so loser ultimately

[Xano]

Get the two fear click necks from Paineel
Fear undead @2 sec cast is more valuble then a JBB
Fear kite for full dot damage and no JBB can save your life. Undead train? Fear fear fear gate
Never regret being the best shaman.

Iksar



XANTHRO

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Get the two fear click necks from Paineel
Fear undead @2 sec cast is more valuble then a JBB
Fear kite for full dot damage and no JBB can save your life. Undead train? Fear fear fear gate
Never regret being the best shaman.

Iksar



XANTHRO

There aren't enough notable Animal/Undead mobs for the fear clickies to be worth it sadly. If you want to fear kite, you can get a bio orb, and that works on mobs over 55+. There aren't enough notable Animal/Undead casters for the interrupt to be to useful either.

The fear clickies would be a lot better if one of them was just a normal fear. JBB is better than the fear clickies because the fear clickies are heavily restricted.

[Xano]

There aren't enough notable Animal/Undead mobs for the fear clickies to be worth it sadly. If you want to fear kite, you can get a bio orb, and that works on mobs over 55+. There aren't enough notable Animal/Undead casters for the interrupt to be to useful either.

The fear clickies would be a lot better if one of them was just a normal fear. JBB is better than the fear clickies because the fear clickies are heavily restricted.



Umm there are plenty of both to level on, and umm Charsis ? Western wastes? Undead in Hate ?? yes clicky works on all of them

XANTHRO

lol not enough undead

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Umm there are plenty of both to level on, and umm Charsis ? Western wastes? Undead in Hate ?? yes clicky works on all of them

XANTHRO

lol not enough undead

I said not enough noteable undead/animals, as in named mobs worth killng for loot. When leveling, mobs are already easy enough. You don't need fear to kill trash mobs.

You aren't going to be fearing mobs in Hate. Leveling there is very dangeous too. Not worth it. If your root breaks while fear is still active you are going to have a bad time.

WW Dragons are generally immune to fear, there's only one or two that aren't, and they don't drop the good armor pieces. Killing trash in WW like the wolves isn't efficient for a Shaman.

For Howling Stones you aren't going to want to use fear on a Shaman. Only Oblations are casters in North/Basement, and they are easy enough to resist. You don't have FD like a Necro/SK, so getting adds from a bad fear is just going to slow down your leveling process.

In all of those zones it would be faster to just JBB spam a mob down while leveling if you don't have the money for epic.

[Tann]

Root + fear means those annoying undead casters won't cast if no one is in melee range right?

Would make HS basement or stuff in seb easier I bet.

[Xano]

I said not enough noteable undead/animals, as in named mobs worth killng for loot. When leveling, mobs are already easy enough. You don't need fear to kill trash mobs.

You aren't going to be fearing mobs in Hate. Leveling there is very dangeous too. Not worth it. If your root breaks while fear is still active you are going to have a bad time.

WW Dragons are generally immune to fear, there's only one or two that aren't, and they don't drop the good armor pieces. Killing trash in WW like the wolves isn't efficient for a Shaman.

For Howling Stones you aren't going to want to use fear on a Shaman. Only Oblations are casters in North/Basement, and they are easy enough to resist. You don't have FD like a Necro/SK, so getting adds from a bad fear is just going to slow down your leveling process.

In all of those zones it would be faster to just JBB spam a mob down while leveling if you don't have the money for epic.

This thread was about JBB vs not as in Iksar -
Having the fear clickies over the characters life is way more useful as an OUT of CLASS spell line-
The fact you listed the BIO orb as a counter is moronic at best and put of reach for most players. The quests for the Cazic symbols are not.

Like I said Fear in hate?? Yes to fear fear fear gate -
No amount of JBB clicks will save you from an undead mob train - spook undead @ 2 sec unlimited CAN and WILL.

Your limited (zero) experience with them shows how unimaginatively you play the game.

Like I have said JBB makes weak shaman


XANTHRO

[Duik]

Rah Roh

[Tann]

I can hear the 500wpm counter post from across the planet

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This thread was about JBB vs not as in Iksar -
Having the fear clickies over the characters life is way more useful as an OUT of CLASS spell line-
The fact you listed the BIO orb as a counter is moronic at best and put of reach for most players. The quests for the Cazic symbols are not.

Like I said Fear in hate?? Yes to fear fear fear gate -
No amount of JBB clicks will save you from an undead mob train - spook undead @ 2 sec unlimited CAN and WILL.

Your limited (zero) experience with them shows how unimaginatively you play the game.

Like I have said JBB makes weak shaman


XANTHRO

The amount of Shamans who have a bio orb is probably greater than the amount of Shamans who actually solo in Hate on a regular basis. It is a very strange argument to complain about the cost of bio orb, while seemingly claiming that soloing in Hate is something a normal Shaman does, especially one who can't afford a bio orb.

An out of class spell line is irrelevant if it doesn't help you in a significant way. Please name an undead/animal mob you think needs to be feared to kill on a Shaman.

You can also root/camp mobs just fine. I get that you think the fast cast time of the clickies helps you here, but you forget that a fleeing mob can bring more friends. I am not saying this strategy can never work, but having a bunch of feared mobs running around a place like hate is a gamble too lol. I have used the fear line of spells a lot, as I have a 60 SK. I understand the idea of using fear to help you survive.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

One more note on Hate. It is a raid zone, so fearing mobs in a panic to save yourself can lead to accidentally killing a raid force or tracker. You may not notice players coming into the zone. If you are guilded this is going to be a problem for your whole guild, not just yourself. Most people are guilded.

This is one major reason why fearing to save yourself isn't always a great strategy. This game is an MMO, which means you need to be considerate of other players.

[Vivitron]

If a 60 shaman found a use for blinding luminance they would probably just cast it instead of buying a bio orb, right? I know the spell slot hurts, but so does the orb's cast time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If a 60 shaman found a use for blinding luminance they would probably just cast it instead of buying a bio orb, right? I know the spell slot hurts, but so does the orb's cast time.

Yes, you can certainly cast the spell youself. I killed sirens for the Shawl Quest this way when I was level 51 or so. Great way to prevent them from casting their Enchanter spells. On trash mobs it usually doesn't get resisted.

If you want to keep a higher level mob like a Cliff Golem constantly blinded to prevent it from summoning you, that requires a lot of casting. You get resists more often, for example. That is when bio orb would be useful. Saves a spell slot and reduces how often you need to Torpor/Cannibalize.

[Troxx]

iksar shaman best shaman

In the words of John Pinette ... "Oh nay nay!" :p

Troll shaman is best shaman so sayeth me. If not troll shaman then yes iksar shaman is best shaman.

FSI is overrated.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

FSI is overrated.

It isn't. It's quite easy to math out why FSI is better than Troll/Iksar Regen once you are at level 60 with Torpor. The guide in my signature does as much!

Before 60 Regen is better, so it just depends what you prefer. A better early game with a worse end game, or a better end game with a worse early game.

If you plan on Min/Maxing and getting to the end game, FSI wins handily.

[Troxx]

Oh nay nay!

Regen is just flatly superior at all levels of gameplay.

[fortior]

As far as I know the most accomplished shaman solo artist was a barbarian. So going from evidence, barbarians are the best solo shaman race.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Regen is just flatly superior at all levels of gameplay.

This is factually false at 60 with Torpor.

Regen is very easy to calculate how much you get. Trolls/Iksars get +8 standing Regen over other races. 8 x 10 x 60 = 4800 HP per hour. That's the equivalent of 3-4 Torpors per hour, assuming you are never at 100% HP, which a Torpor Shaman often is.

3-4 Torpors per hour is not really significant on a Torpor Shaman. At best it saves you 2 minutes per hour on recovery, but in reality it's probably half that (or less) due to being at full HP/Mana often.

FSI increases your chance of survival before the initial slow on any difficult fight, which can actually be the difference between success and failure. This is the most dangerous part of a fight. Increasing your chances of surviving a difficult fight will always trump a small boost in recovery time on a class that can already do a full recovery in 3 minutes or less https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc .

[Troxx]

You are factually false.

Oh nay nay!

Regen is just flatly superior at all levels of gameplay.

This is factually true.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are factually false.


Thank you for admitting you are wrong via trolling, as per usual.

As mentioned in my previous post https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3669718&postcount=30 , FSI is factually better than Troll/Iksar Regen at 60 with Torpor.

[Duik]

Does factually in this instance just shorthand "Fucking Actually"?
It's hard to tell sometimes.
FYI, people who use their sig to "prove" stuff fail to realise others may or may not choose to display sigs.
So, the proof is not there so factually there is no proof!
Ergo Shpergo!

[Troxx]

Bears.

Beets.

Battlestar gallactica

[Tann]

Thank you for admitting you are wrong via trolling, as per usual.

As mentioned in my previous post https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3669718&postcount=30 , FSI is factually better than Troll/Iksar Regen at 60 with Torpor.

I get where posts like that are coming from but... This kinda talk always assumes the shaman or ______ is 60 and has epic and has this spell and that spell. There are dozens of us casual players out there who probably will never even hit 60, let alone get Torpor, so regen will always be king.

My enchanter is getting close, 20% into 59 and it's taken me years.. will never see epic and struggling to raise the plat to afford key spells like bedlam, forlorn deeds, and dictate. Not everyone has deep pockets and 5-8 lv60's geared to the teeth.

TLDR: for my endlessly leveling iksar shaman, regen will always be king.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There are dozens of us casual players out there who probably will never even hit 60, let alone get Torpor, so regen will always be king.


I agree Troll/Iksar Regen is better if you never plan on reaching level 60. I say as much in my guide, and I mentioned it earlier in this thread:


Before 60 Regen is better, so it just depends what you prefer. A better early game with a worse end game, or a better end game with a worse early game.

If you plan on Min/Maxing and getting to the end game, FSI wins handily.

I generally advise against assuming you will never reach level 60, however. This is because on P99 you play a character for years. People often change their minds about characters over time. You may end up regretting a character creation decision you made in haste early on.

It seems like you are finally going to reach 60 as well, even though it took you a long time (early grats!):


My enchanter is getting close, 20% into 59 and it's taken me years.. will never see epic and struggling to raise the plat to afford key spells like bedlam, forlorn deeds, and dictate. Not everyone has deep pockets and 5-8 lv60's geared to the teeth.


For a while I didn't want to level my Shaman past 55, because levels 55-60 are generally much grindier on any class. You have less choices in terms of good XP camps too. I also like the playstyle of a Shaman with Fungi Tunic/Fungi Staff/JBB and no Torpor. I wasn't planning on doing much raiding either. I honestly didn't think I was even going to get a Tear for my Epic. But I ended up pushing to 60, getting Torpor, getting Epic, and getting a bunch of raid gear. My ideas on what I wanted to do with my character changed over time.

[Toxigen]

FACTUALLY

[Troxx]

https://media.tenor.com/CZfwxqCNgpUAAAAM/jim-halpert-dwight-schrute.gif

[Snaggles]

All Regen is FT if you canni. There is an argument in casting regrowth, using a fungi staff, wearing a fungi tunic, or even rolling a regen class. I just don’t know if it’s worth 30+ more pages to debate ad nauseam.

As for dotting and fearing animals and undead without snare…goodness. No, thus is not “as good as a JBB”. It would also take a mountain of factioning or level 55 (bear form) to even be viable.

Play the race/class you want to and spend less time justifying it to nerds. This is an EQ sim not a high school one.

[Toxigen]

yeah ill take regen any day

too bad my shaman is barb, but polar bear was what i wanted so here we are

[DeathsSilkyMist]

All Regen is FT if you canni.

Indeed. But when you have Torpor (+300 Regen), +8 Regen is only a 2.66% improvement in your Cannibalization efforts. Less if you are using Regrowth and Fungi Tunic.

This is why FSI wins once you have Torpor. Increasing your survivability during the first minute of a fight (before a mob is slowed) will be better than a small boost to your Mana/HP regeneration on a class that can already fully recover in 3 minutes or less. Troll/Iksar HP regeneration is giving you +80 HP in that first minute, which isn't even 1 hit from a difficult mob. Slowing a mob earlier due to FSI preventing an interrupt will save a lot more than 80 HP.

It's the same reason why Vindi BP is generally better than Fungi Tunic on a Torpor Shaman. You want to reduce spikes in damage, those are what kill a Torpor Shaman. Vindi BP gives you more AC, HP, and Resists to do just that. Once a mob is slowed you can already control your HP/Mana very well with Torpor and Cannibalize.


Play the race/class you want to and spend less time justifying it to nerds. This is an EQ sim not a high school one.

Agreed. Nobody is forcing anybody to play a race/class they do not like. Nobody is making fun of people who play X Race or X Class. All I am doing is providing the correct information on the game, so people can make their own decisions. There is nothing wrong with playing a non-Ogre Shaman, you can do all of the same content. Some people like to know what the Min/Max options are though, and there is no reason why we should obfuscate this information. If people like playing Min/Max, there is nothing wrong with that either.

Take these two statements: "FSI is provably better than Troll/Iksar Regen when a Shaman has Torpor", and "ToV Weapons are provably better than Rusty Weapons". I am not sure why the former gets so much pushback, and the latter does not. Both are proven via math and data, and are quite easy to prove.

[Snaggles]

Do you have regrowth on? If not, and no fungi, and not a troll, that’s approx 1.5 the effect of C2.

Do you have at least soft capped Wisdom? (Not you, but figuratively others). If not, bring say 60 wisdom under cap is about three casts of Turgurs or Torp.

There are a lot of trope statements about shaman gearing and most should have an asterisk. Fact is most players spend more time buffing, debuffing, and healing. Iksars have the most starting Wis. They don’t need bear or shrink to navigate a lot of places. It’s a helluva hill solo without an epic or JBB but they also don’t die from getting stuck in stairs, ladders, or doorways. That is is a frequent memory of leveling my troll shaman. More so than the bash-spell interrupts that resulted in a death.

If I could wave a wand and change my sham into another race it would prob be an iksar. Those wands don’t exist tho.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Do you have regrowth on? If not, and no fungi, and not a troll, that’s approx 1.5 the effect of C2.

Do you have at least soft capped Wisdom? (Not you, but figuratively others). If not, bring say 60 wisdom under cap is about three casts of Turgurs or Torp.

There are a lot of trope statements about shaman gearing and most should have an asterisk. Fact is most players spend more time buffing, debuffing, and healing. Iksars have the most starting Wis. They don’t need bear or shrink to navigate a lot of places. It’s a helluva hill solo without an epic or JBB but they also don’t die from getting stuck in stairs, ladders, or doorways. That is is a frequent memory of leveling my troll shaman. More so than the bash-spell interrupts that resulted in a death.

If I could wave a wand and change my sham into another race it would prob be an iksar. Those wands don’t exist tho.

Troll/Iksar Regeneration gives you 4800 HP per hour over Barbarians/Ogres at level 60, assuming you are never at 100% HP. That's all it is doing.

4800 HP per hour is the equivalent of 3-4 Torpors per hour, depending on if your Torpor ticks 4 times or 5. This is 540-720 Mana per hour with Alteration Specialization.

If you want to compare Troll/Iksar Regeneration to a mana buff, it is basically the equivalent of Flowing Thought I on a Torpor Shaman. Realistically it is less than that, because a Torpor Shaman played efficiently is going to be at 100% HP and Mana when they are out of combat. I assume you want to play your character efficiently if you are worried about which racial is best.

All HP/Mana Regeneration is helpful. Nobody is denying that. FSI is simply more helpful, because surviving the pre-slow phase of a hard fight is more beneficial than saving 1.5-2 minutes (realistically less) on recovery per hour. Unfortunately Troll/Iksar Regeneration is too slow to typically be useful in terms of surviving a tough fight at level 60. Troll/Iksar HP Regeneration gives you a non-zero percent increase in survivability, but so does FSI, and FSI's non-zero percent increase in survivability is higher. That's why FSI is better on Shamans with Torpor. It's really that simple.

When it comes to size issues, Shamans can make Shrink Pots, which work both indoors and outdoors. They can also cast Shrink indoors. Iksars have a small benefit on a few raid targets by being naturally smaller, but normally size issues are easy to fix on a Shaman if they are a problem for you. Zone knowledge also helps. The longer you play a big race, typically the better you get at knowing where the problem areas are.

[Toxigen]

Troll/Iksar Regeneration gives you 4800 HP per hour over Barbarians/Ogres at level 60, assuming you are never at 100% HP. That's all it is doing.

4800 HP per hour is the equivalent of 3-4 Torpors per hour, depending on if your Torpor ticks 4 times or 5. This is 540-720 Mana per hour with Alteration Specialization.

If you want to compare Troll/Iksar Regeneration to a mana buff, it is basically the equivalent of Flowing Thought I on a Torpor Shaman. Realistically it is less than that, because a Torpor Shaman played efficiently is going to be at 100% HP and Mana when they are out of combat. I assume you want to play your character efficiently if you are worried about which racial is best.

All HP/Mana Regeneration is helpful. Nobody is denying that. FSI is simply more helpful, because surviving the pre-slow phase of a hard fight is more beneficial than saving 1.5-2 minutes (realistically less) on recovery per hour. Unfortunately Troll/Iksar Regeneration is too slow to typically be useful in terms of surviving a tough fight. It gives you a non-zero percent increase in survivability, but so does FSI, and that non-zero percent is higher. That's why FSI is better on Shamans with Torpor. It's really that simple.



fact is most players will benefit from regen...not everyone is a torpor solo artist

[DeathsSilkyMist]

fact is most players will benefit from regen...not everyone is a torpor solo artist

Agreed. I said as much in my guide, and earlier in this thread (multiple times). If you think you'll never reach level 60 or get Torpor, Troll/Iksar Regeneration is better than FSI.

But I caution against assuming you will never reach level 60, because P99 is a long game. When you play a character for years, your ideas on what your character will do may change.

Picking the Min/Max option on character creation (assuming you will reach level 60 with Torpor, Epic, Raid Gear, etc.) is the safest bet for anybody who isn't sure what their character will look like in a year or two.

Anybody who is confident enough in their character creation already is not making threads here about it:)

Obviously you do not think Troll/Iksar Regeneration is required to have a good time while leveling. You have a Barbarian Shaman yourself. As an Ogre Shaman myself I agree. You can level a Barbarian/Ogre Shaman just fine, and have fun doing so.

[Toxigen]

i just wanted to be a polar bear

[DeathsSilkyMist]

i just wanted to be a polar bear

They do look good! If you prefer fashion over function, then you already know what race you are going to play. It's whichever race looks the best in your opinion.

You aren't the type of player who would ask what is the Min/Max setup for Shamans. There is nothing wrong with that.

Some players prefer to Min/Max, and may not care as much about fashion. Let's give those players the correct information, so they can decide which race is best for them.

[Snaggles]

Toxigen will have to clarify what he said but I didnt assume he meant only pre-60 since he didn’t say that.

Yea innate regen is only 8hp/tick. Most “serious shamans” once they get torp drop the Fungi tunic and stop casting regrowth. So as mentioned, it’s about FT15-18. Without canni if not always full health it’s 22,800hps an hour, or roughly 40% of that in mana. If you still cast regrowth and have a fungi then it’s quite a bit less.

IMHO for most stuff, a fungi tunic and staff would be ideal kit pieces for any shaman. Torp or not. Innate regen is something. Especially if sitting down for quick afks on occasion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Toxigen will have to clarify what he said but I didnt assume he meant only pre-60 since he didn’t say that.

Yea innate regen is only 8hp/tick. Most “serious shamans” once they get torp drop the Fungi tunic and stop casting regrowth. So as mentioned, it’s about FT15-18. Without canni if not always full health it’s 22,800hps an hour, or roughly 40% of that in mana. If you still cast regrowth and have a fungi then it’s quite a bit less.

IMHO for most stuff, a fungi tunic and staff would be ideal kit pieces for any shaman. Torp or not. Innate regen is something. Especially if sitting down for quick afks on occasion.

I agree with you that Fungi Staff is still nice on a Torpor Shaman. I have one bagged myself. Fungi Tunic isn't as great because Vindi BP is generally better on a Torpor Shaman. Vindi BP is better at reducing damage spikes. Fungi Staff is a clickie, so you can wear your weapons and use Fungi Staff simultaneously. Unfortunately you cannot wear Fungi Tunic and Vindi BP at the same time. You have to pick one.

I am not sure why you keep mentioning Fungi Tunic and Fungi Staff. They aren't relevant to the racial discussion because all Shaman races can use both. I already outlined how much benefit you get from Iksar/Troll Regeneration specifically on a Torpor Shaman. Iksar/Troll Regeneration is basically the equivalent of FT1 on a Torpor Shaman if you want to compare it to Flowing Thought.

Your Flowing Thought calculations are off for a Torpor Shaman specially. Your FT15-18 idea comes from a Pre-Torpor Shaman who is never at 100% HP.

Fungi Tunic + Fungi Staff is +30 HP Regeneration. That is 30 x 10 x 60 = 18000 HP per hour, assuming you are never at 100%. 18000 HP / 1200 HP (Torpor) = 15 casts of Torpor per hour to get the same amount of HP. If you get 1500 HP Torpors, that is 12 casts of Torpor per hour.

12-15 casts of Torpor with Alteration Specialization = 2160-2700 Mana spent per hour on a Torpor Shaman. 2160 / 600 (Mana gained per hour from FT1) = 3.6, and 2700 / 600 (Mana gained per hour from FT1) = 4.5. Fungi Staff is also FT2 in terms of saving the mana you need to cast on Regrowth. That means Fungi Tunic + Fungi Staff is somewhere between FT5.6 and FT6.5 on a Torpor Shaman, depending on your Torpor Ticks. Realistically it is lower since a Torpor Shaman is at 100% HP and Mana out of combat. Fungi Tunic + Fungi Staff is probably more like FT4 on average for a Torpor Shaman.

[fortior]

None of that is based on real world evidence though, which still proves that Barbarians are the best shaman race, followed by trolls, with everyone else in a shared third place, following the Solo Artist Challenge Hall of Fame (https://wiki.project1999.com/Solo_Artist_Challenge_Hall_of_Fame). Everything else is just theory.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

None of that is based on real world evidence though, which still proves that Barbarians are the best shaman race, followed by trolls, with everyone else in a shared third place, following the Solo Artist Challenge Hall of Fame (https://wiki.project1999.com/Solo_Artist_Challenge_Hall_of_Fame). Everything else is just theory.

Player skill is not comparable to which racial is best. It's an apples to oranges comparison. Racial bonuses have no relation to player skill.

And yes, real world math/data/evidence is what I am using. You can double check everything I said yourself by playing a Torpor Shaman.

I am at least a Solo Grandmaster according to the solo challenge wiki. I even have video proof of me killing Tranix, Ionat (Solo God Mode) and a Cliff Golem to back it up.

Under your own logic Ogre cannot be in third place. They are at least tied for second with Trolls. But you know there is nothing innate about a Barbarian that makes them better at solo challenges than other races. It is just the skill of the player who is using the Shaman.

[fortior]

I don't know about that, because I don't see any proof on the wiki. The current leaderboards conclusively show barbarian > troll > everything else. There are likely some variables you're missing in your calculations, because your results do not correspond with reality (i.e. the real leaderboards).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't know about that, because I don't see any proof on the wiki. The current leaderboards conclusively show barbarian > troll > everything else. There are likely some variables you're missing in your calculations, because your results do not correspond with reality (i.e. the real leaderboards).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rzw3wLWEsM - Tranix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - Cliff Golem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 - Ionat

This is real evidence. You are clearly trolling at this point by presuming what is currently on the wiki is the only proof that matters. There's no real reason for anybody to believe you are being sincere, nor do you have any evidence to back up your claims about which racial bonuses are the best.

[Tann]

None of that is based on real world evidence though, which still proves that Barbarians are the best shaman race, followed by trolls, with everyone else in a shared third place, following the Solo Artist Challenge Hall of Fame (https://wiki.project1999.com/Solo_Artist_Challenge_Hall_of_Fame). Everything else is just theory.

And not a single FSI shaman on the list, it's almost as if racial bonuses don't matter and it's all about the player. Ty for the link

[DeathsSilkyMist]

it's almost as if racial bonuses don't matter and it's all about the player. Ty for the link

Nobody said otherwise. That isn't relevant to the discussion of which racial bonus is best.

It is factually true that specific Shaman racial bonuses are not required to do content.

It is also factually true that FSI is the best racial bonus for Torpor Shamans.

I am not sure why you think these two facts are in conflict at all.

[bcbrown]

It is also factually true that FSI is the best racial bonus for Torpor Shamans.

As far as I can tell your "proof" is an opinion.

Take these two statements: "FSI is provably better than Troll/Iksar Regen when a Shaman has Torpor", and "ToV Weapons are provably better than Rusty Weapons". I am not sure why the former gets so much pushback, and the latter does not. Both are proven via math and data, and are quite easy to prove.

Please show me the proof. And yes, I've read your guide. I saw a lot of opinions, a couple calculations, but no proof.

Until I see a proper formal proof, I'm gonna side with this guy:

It just depends what you prefer.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As far as I can tell your "proof" is an opinion.

Please show me the proof. And yes, I've read your guide. I saw a lot of opinions, a couple calculations, but no proof.


What is your definition of proof? It clearly isn't the normal definition.

I have provided math using the actual formulas and values from the game. You can double check these formulas and values both on the wiki and in the game. You can double check the math as well.

I have provided video evidence with logs showing how the game works, as well as various fights. You can reproduce these videos yourself to double check my methods.

You have provided nothing to counter any of my points. The only person who is simply posting their opinion is yourself. A completely unfounded opinion.

If you believe I am wrong, please post something to counter my points. Your opinion that all of my evidence is an opinion has no merit as it currently stands.

I suggest you read my guide again, and watch my youtube videos.

[bcbrown]

What is your definition of proof? It clearly isn't the normal definition.

A mathematical proof is a deductive argument for a mathematical statement, showing that the stated assumptions logically guarantee the conclusion.

A chain of statements or formulas leading logically from axioms and theorems previously established to the theorem which is the conclusion of the demonstation.

I showed you mine, now show me yours. What's your definition.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What's your definition.

Clearly what you posted isn't your definition, as my guide and youtube videos meet what you posted. Why did you claim otherwise?

[bcbrown]

Jesus Christ. Here's a proof that there is no highest prime number, or equivalently that the the sequence of prime numbers is unbounded. Note, this is a proof by contradiction.

Assume that there is a highest prime number, P_max. Thus the sequence of primes runs P_0, P_1, P_2 ... P_max. Compute the number sum(P_0, P_1, P_2 ... P_max) + 1. This number is not divisible by any number in the sequence of primes and is larger than P_max. This contradicts the assumption there is a highest prime number. QED.

I ask again, what is your definition, and what is your proof? You said it was easily provable.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Jesus Christ. Here's a proof that there is no highest prime number, or equivalently that the the sequence of prime numbers is unbounded. Note, this is a proof by contradiction.

Assume that there is a highest prime number, P_max. Thus the sequence of primes runs P_0, P_1, P_2 ... P_max. Compute the number sum(P_0, P_1, P_2 ... P_max) + 1. This number is not divisible by any number in the sequence of primes, is not divisible by any of them, and is larger than P_max. This contradicts the assumption there is a highest prime number. QED.

I ask again, what is your definition, and what is your proof? You said it was easily provable.

Did you not read my guide? I provided the math in it quite clearly. If you are simply going to quibble over the specifics in how I wrote out the math, then you have already lost the argument.

I'll ask again: What part(s) of my arguments do you feel are incorrect?

[bcbrown]

I think your argument supporting your opinion is fairly convincing. It is not a proof.

As you are unwilling to provide a proof, allow me to attempt to summarize your argument:

Trolls/Iksars get +8 standing Regen over other races. 8 x 10 x 60 = 4800 HP per hour. That's the equivalent of 3-4 Torpors per hour. 3-4 Torpors per hour is not really significant on a Torpor Shaman. FSI increases your chance of survival before the initial slow on any difficult fight, which can actually be the difference between success and failure. Increasing your survivability during the first minute of a fight (before a mob is slowed) will be better than a small boost to your Mana/HP regeneration on a class that can already fully recover in 3 minutes or less.

Your argument is that the increased survivability of no stuns before a slow during a solo fight is a subjectively better than the (quantifiable) benefit of 4800 HP/hour.

Show me the proof or stop claiming it's provable.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think your argument supporting your opinion is fairly convincing. It is not a proof.

As you are unwilling to provide a proof, allow me to attempt to summarize your argument:

Trolls/Iksars get +8 standing Regen over other races. 8 x 10 x 60 = 4800 HP per hour. That's the equivalent of 3-4 Torpors per hour. 3-4 Torpors per hour is not really significant on a Torpor Shaman. FSI increases your chance of survival before the initial slow on any difficult fight, which can actually be the difference between success and failure. Increasing your survivability during the first minute of a fight (before a mob is slowed) will be better than a small boost to your Mana/HP regeneration on a class that can already fully recover in 3 minutes or less.

Your argument is that the increased survivability of no stuns before a slow during a solo fight is a subjectively better than the (quantifiable) benefit of 4800 HP/hour.

Show me the proof or stop claiming it's provable.

Let's approach this from a different direction. You seem to want me to write out what I have said in a very specific format: a mathematical proof in this case.

Please write out the mathematical proof for why a ToV Weapon is better than a Rusty Weapon. Then I can use that template to rewrite what I have said in the way you wish to read it.

You keep refusing to explain why you think I am incorrect. Your baseless opinion that my evidence has no merit is simply nonsense until you can back it up.

[bcbrown]

You keep refusing to explain why you think I am incorrect. Your baseless opinion that my evidence has no merit is simply nonsense until you can back it up.

Man, I try to do my best to avoid personal insults and engage forcefully but respectfully on the merits, but you make it harder when you throw in inflammatory language like this.

I'm working on that proof for you, but I'm also playing EQ, so it'll take a couple hours.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Man, I try to do my best to avoid personal insults and engage forcefully but respectfully on the merits, but you make it harder when you throw in inflammatory language like this.

I'm working on that proof for you, but I'm also playing EQ, so it'll take a couple hours.

Your opinion is baseless in it's current state. Me saying that isn't inflammatory when it is true. Take a look at your first post:

As far as I can tell your "proof" is an opinion.

Please show me the proof. And yes, I've read your guide. I saw a lot of opinions, a couple calculations, but no proof.


There is nothing here that supports your claim. This is a baseless opinion, which you refuse to explain further.

[bcbrown]

Sure thing! Note, I do not know the details of how damage is calculated, so there will be a couple places in this proof where details are elided.

Axiom: The hit rate (miss vs damage dealt) is independent of weapon using the same skill.

Axiom: If a weapon hits, the damage done is drawn from 20 possible values, equally possible. I don't know the details of the maximum and minimum values, but they are a function of the "damage" attribute of the weapon.

Axiom: The expected value of a weapon swing equals the average value.

Axiom: The average value of a weapon swing equals (2 * Weapon_Base) + Bonus_Modifier + STR Modifier, which we can simplify (in notation) to 2 * X + Y

Axiom: The number of swings per minute of a weapon is inversely proportional to the "delay" attribute of the weapon.

Axiom: A weapon with a delay of 60 will swing once per minute. Note: I don't know the exact calculation here, but this will not affect the proof.

Definition: The expected damage per minute for a weapon equals the expected damage per swing multiplied by the swings per minute.

Proposition to prove: a 15/20 weapon is expected to do more damage than a 5/35 weapon. In formula: EV(15/20) > EV(5/35) where EV is the Expected Value. Note: I don't know what ratio a NTOV weapon should be, so here I'm plugging in some arbitrary numbers.

Other axioms:

There's no procs
hate generation (due to procs) is irrelevant
the target is not immune to non-magical weapons


This proof is of the form direct proof (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_proof#Methods_of_proof)

Step 1: The expected damage per minute of the rusty weapon is average damage times number of swings per minute, or (2 * 5 + Y) * 60/35

Step 2: The expected damage of the NTOV weapon is (2 * 15 + Y) * 60/20

Proof:
(2 * 15 + Y) * 60/20 > (2 * 5 + Y) * 60/35
(30 + Y) *35 > (10 + Y) * 20
1050 * Y > 200 * Y
1050 > 200
QED

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sure thing! Note, I do not know the details of how damage is calculated, so there will be a couple places in this proof where details are elided.

Axiom: The hit rate (miss vs damage dealt) is independent of weapon using the same skill.

Axiom: If a weapon hits, the damage done is drawn from 20 possible values, equally possible. I don't know the details of the maximum and minimum values, but they are a function of the "damage" attribute of the weapon.

Axiom: The expected value of a weapon swing equals the average value.

Axiom: The average value of a weapon swing equals (2 * Weapon_Base) + Bonus_Modifier + STR Modifier, which we can simplify (in notation) to 2 * X + Y

Axiom: The number of swings per minute of a weapon is inversely proportional to the "delay" attribute of the weapon.

Axiom: A weapon with a delay of 60 will swing once per minute. Note: I don't know the exact calculation here, but this will not affect the proof.

Definition: The expected damage per minute for a weapon equals the expected damage per swing multiplied by the swings per minute.

Proposition to prove: a 15/20 weapon is expected to do more damage than a 5/35 weapon. In formula: EV(15/20) > EV(5/35) where EV is the Expected Value. Note: I don't know what ratio a NTOV weapon should be, so here I'm plugging in some arbitrary numbers.

Other axioms:

There's no procs
hate generation (due to procs) is irrelevant
the target is not immune to non-magical weapons


This proof is of the form direct proof (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_proof#Methods_of_proof)

Step 1: The expected damage per minute of the rusty weapon is average damage times number of swings per minute, or (2 * 5 + Y) * 60/35

Step 2: The expected damage of the NTOV weapon is (2 * 15 + Y) * 60/20

Proof:
(2 * 15 + Y) * 60/20 > (2 * 5 + Y) * 60/35
(30 + Y) *35 > (10 + Y) * 20
1050 * Y > 200 * Y
1050 > 200
QED

As you can see, there is no information in this format that is different from the information I have already provided. You can find all of the mathematical formulas and axioms in my guide already. You can also take a look at my posts in this thread.

You haven't shown why restructuring my argument into this format will provide any new insight.

Hopefully you will answer my question this time:

Where do you believe I am incorrect with regards to FSI vs. Regeneration on a Shaman, and where is your counter-evidence supporting your claims?

[bcbrown]

You haven't shown why restructuring my argument into this format will provide any new insight.

You cannot restructure your argument into this format, because you have no falsifiable proposition.

I keep asking you for your proof, and you keep declining to provide one. As far as I can tell, your argument is that FSI provides higher survivability in solo fights, while regen provides a real & quantifiable but negligible benefit. This does not prove that "FSI is better than regen". All it supports is:

It just depends what you prefer.

Here's a falsifiable proposition: In a solo fight against a WW dragon, FSI enhances the odds of a successful outcome more-so than regen does.

I'd attempt to prove that using Markov chains, where each tick is a state transition, and the state variables would be hp&mana for PC&NPC&pet, plus all buff/debuffs, and who is in melee range of whom. I'd use Monte Carlo Markov Chain analysis to generate a probabilistic proof.

But let's be real. I haven't seen you provide any evidence of enough mathematical sophistication to prove that 2 is even, so I'm pretty confident that MCMC analysis is far beyond your remit.

Where do you believe I am incorrect with regards to FSI vs. Regeneration on a Shaman, and where is your counter-evidence supporting your claims?

I believe your argument is persuasive. I do not believe it is provable as formulated, and I do not believe you could prove it, even if you could formulate a falsifiable proposition.

If you're happy to concede that this is an opinion, I have no objections. As long as you maintain that this is provable and proven, I shall continue to ask for the proof.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you're happy to concede that this is an opinion, I have no objections.

I keep asking you for your proof, and you keep declining to provide one.


I am not sure why I should concede. I have provided plenty of evidence to back up my claims. You can read my guide/watch my youtube videos and come up with questions/concerns. Or better yet, provide counter-evidence showing why I am wrong!


But let's be real. I haven't seen you provide any evidence of enough mathematical sophistication to prove that 2 is even, so I'm pretty confident that MCMC analysis is far beyond your remit.


Your argument that a mathematical equation must be sophisticated to prove a point is laughable at best. You don't see sophisticated mathematics wrapped in a proof showing why a ToV Weapon is better than a Rusty Weapon, because the mathematics are already quite simple for why this is the case. People do not need to write a master thesis on why 2 + 2 = 4 to understand why 2 + 2 = 4. In practical computer programming terms, the computer does not care why 2 + 2 = 4. The hardware is built to do this calculation, and does so.


As long as you maintain that this is provable and proven, I shall continue to ask for the proof.

The only person who has provided zero evidence for their claims is yourself. You refuse to explain why you think my guide or youtube videos are incorrect in any way. I am sorry, but debates do not work this way. Simply saying "You are wrong and I don't have to prove it!", will get you nowhere.

You can keep asking me to re-format my entire guide/youtube channel into a random format as a diversion tactic if you wish, but it isn't a valid argument.

Hopefully one day you will actually provide something other than nonsense. Thus far you have completely admitted defeat by refusing to explain your position.

[fortior]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rzw3wLWEsM - Tranix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - Cliff Golem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 - Ionat

This is real evidence. You are clearly trolling at this point by presuming what is currently on the wiki is the only proof that matters. There's no real reason for anybody to believe you are being sincere, nor do you have any evidence to back up your claims about which racial bonuses are the best.

https://i.imgur.com/n9VWb9f.png

Counts as duo master

The other 2 look legit though. Congrats! Not sure your videos are completely usable since most people submitting them do things like showing which buffs they have, but I'm not such a hardass. Once you have submitted yours, I think you're on your way to proving ogres are just as good as trolls and potentially even barbarians. However, it does say 'any 5', so you have a few more kills to go :)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/n9VWb9f.png

Counts as duo master


I did the whole Tranix Fight solo. I didn't ask them to help, nor did they help in any relevant way. There is nothing in the video showing I would have lost without them. They just showed up to watch, because they were planning on killing Tranix if I didn't win the fight.


However, it does say 'any 5', so you have a few more kills to go :)

I've done at least 6 on the Solo Grandmaster list, I just don't have videos for them all. Nor do I care enough to make videos. Honestly some of them are strange picks anyway. I've killed Warlord Skarlon for example, and he is easier than Tranix in my estimation.

I simply disproved your idea that Barbarians > Trolls > Ogre/Iksar via using the solo challenge hall of fame as "proof". You are back to square one, because you can no longer use the solo challenge hall of fame as evidence.

But I am confident that you already know that racial bonuses have nothing to do with player skill. This is a pretty obvious troll.

[Xano]

Hey Shamans,

I'm looking at making an iksar shaman because I think they look cool, but wanted to get some experienced solo shamans takes first.
Is missing out on JBB going to hinder me on any solo challenges or is it mostly just for powerleveling yourself?

Cheers Nerds!


SO like i said ~ the iksar regen ac and fear clickies will be far more useful over the character's play vs JBB.

Address this not *WhO AM SolO BoSSSSSSSS vs the list of panty wetting*

FROM the ONLY SHAMAN to break into a GM room AND get the GM Medris killed.

No barby troll or Ogre shaman

AN IKSAR

ME

XANTHRO

google it p99 first gm room break in ~ sega made the thread
oh snap it wasn't solo it doesn't count !!!!!

IKSAR BEST

[Jimjam]

Indeed. But when you have Torpor (+300 Regen), +8 Regen is only a 2.66% improvement in your Cannibalization efforts. Less if you are using Regrowth and Fungi Tunic.

This is why FSI wins once you have Torpor. Increasing your survivability during the first minute of a fight (before a mob is slowed) will be better than a small boost to your Mana/HP regeneration on a class that can already fully recover in 3 minutes or less. Troll/Iksar HP regeneration is giving you +80 HP in that first minute, which isn't even 1 hit from a difficult mob. Slowing a mob earlier due to FSI preventing an interrupt will save a lot more than 80 HP.

It's the same reason why Vindi BP is generally better than Fungi Tunic on a Torpor Shaman. You want to reduce spikes in damage, those are what kill a Torpor Shaman. Vindi BP gives you more AC, HP, and Resists to do just that. Once a mob is slowed you can already control your HP/Mana very well with Torpor and Cannibalize.



Agreed. Nobody is forcing anybody to play a race/class they do not like. Nobody is making fun of people who play X Race or X Class. All I am doing is providing the correct information on the game, so people can make their own decisions. There is nothing wrong with playing a non-Ogre Shaman, you can do all of the same content. Some people like to know what the Min/Max options are though, and there is no reason why we should obfuscate this information. If people like playing Min/Max, there is nothing wrong with that either.

Take these two statements: "FSI is provably better than Troll/Iksar Regen when a Shaman has Torpor", and "ToV Weapons are provably better than Rusty Weapons". I am not sure why the former gets so much pushback, and the latter does not. Both are proven via math and data, and are quite easy to prove.

Rusty 2hander better than tov weapons for bowquest. Sorry you’re wrong.

[Infectious]

Dsm proof is in his youtube videos. If you can't extract his mathematical equations from there, then where the fuck did you go to public school?

[Troxx]

If you're happy to concede that this is an opinion, I have no objections. As long as you maintain that this is provable and proven, I shall continue to ask for the proof.

Oh snap!

[Tann]

Hey Shamans,

I'm looking at making an iksar shaman because I think they look cool, but wanted to get some experienced solo shamans takes first.
Is missing out on JBB going to hinder me on any solo challenges or is it mostly just for powerleveling yourself?

Cheers Nerds!

just a reminder, OP's question.

[Toxigen]

battle of the spergs last night i see

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh snap!

I am not sure why you think that was an "oh snap" moment. Bcbrown has yet to counter even one of my points, or provide any counter evidence. Converting what I've said into a mathematical proof will not change the simple fact that Bcbrown has nothing to counter said mathematical proof anyway.

Bcbrown is simply employing a classic trolling technique. They want me to admit everything I say is simply an opinion, because then what I am saying is equal to everybody else's opinion. It's an underhanded method to throw out all of the facts, math, logic, and evidence I have provided.

Bcbrown can't actually win the debate fairly with facts, math, logic, and evidence of their own, so they must resort to this trolling technique instead. It is sad, but hopefully one day they will actually provide something that can counter what I have been saying. It would be great to learn something new. As it stands, Bcbrown is apparently going to just keep asking people to convert what they have been saying into mathematical proofs for unknown reasons.

[fortior]

I did the whole Tranix Fight solo. I didn't ask them to help, nor did they help in any relevant way. There is nothing in the video showing I would have lost without them.

Hmm I'm not sure about that. We would need the video of their viewpoint for this to hold up to scrutiny I think. The hall of fame is very serious! Until you provide proof I don't think we can just let this pass, so you'd be at 2 points, which still places ogres higher than iksars for example, but barbarians still show a better real-world performance.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Hmm I'm not sure about that. We would need the video of their viewpoint for this to hold up to scrutiny I think. The hall of fame is very serious! Until you provide proof I don't think we can just let this pass, so you'd be at 2 points, which still places ogres higher than iksars for example, but barbarians still show a better real-world performance.

You can keep this troll up if you wish. It isn't hurting me or helping you. It just shows you cannot provide any evidence to back up your claims about which racials are the best.

[Toxigen]

"relevant"

[Ripqozko]

Another DSM thread, like clockwork

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Another DSM thread, like clockwork

It is like clockwork. I respond to a topic, trolls come in and derail the thread after they see me post, and then you post "Another DSM thread". There are no "DSM threads", just threads being trolled by the usual suspects. It's very easy to see this pattern. I never start this.

[Danth]

Leave it to EQ players to fight like alleycats over something that is so minor that it doesn't affect overall capability to any significant degree. A barbarian isn't the top solo artist because barbarians are better but because the racials are insignificant enough that the difference between "best" and "worst" is not enough to alter final capability.

I waffle between favoring trolls and ogres as "best" but ultimately the player should pick the one he likes the graphic of. Players overthink stats and racial perks in this game to a maddening degree. In EQ, muchmoreso than in a lot of other MMOG's, player determination, knowledge, and skill will matter for far more. Pciking the "best" of something at creation matters primarily to folks who need to feel like they picked the best and for whom the choice will gnaw at them if they feel like they didn't. Otherwise, in actual practice they're all going to do the same content anyway.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Leave it to EQ players to fight like alleycats over something that is so minor that it doesn't affect overall capability to any significant degree.

Agreed. I never understood why people are so vitriolic when looking at certain gameplay mechanics.

If you show people that Weapon A is better than Weapon B, there is no problem.

If you show people that Racial A is better than Racial B, they start trolling threads to a hardcore degree in an attempt to claim that their preferred racial is better.

[fortior]

I think there are some very powerful classes in classic EQ which would be incredibly strong with any racials, or no racials at all. I don't think racials matter for enchanters, necromancers, or shamans, like, at all. You could not have any racials and have a stronger toolkit than lots of other classes. This thread was the OP asking a question which got solved with the first post, the rest is just people having fun jabbing at each other.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think there are some very powerful classes in classic EQ which would be incredibly strong with any racials, or no racials at all. I don't think racials matter for enchanters, necromancers, or shamans, like, at all. You could not have any racials and have a stronger toolkit than lots of other classes.

You are correct that no racial is required to do content on a Shaman. Everybody in this thread has already agreed on this point.

Some racials are better than others, however, and people want to know which ones are the best. There are players who enjoy Min/Maxing, and there is nothing wrong with that.

There is no reason to derail conversations on which racials are best, or obfuscate the information. Give players the correct information and let them decide how to use it.

[Toxigen]

idk man

new / low budget players that have no intention to ever solo artist with their shaman but rather will focus on grouping and getting to 60 will benefit a lot more from regen than FSI

[DeathsSilkyMist]

idk man

new / low budget players that have no intention to ever solo artist with their shaman but rather will focus on grouping and getting to 60 will benefit a lot more from regen than FSI

I've already agreed with you that Regen is better while leveling, both in in my guide and in this thread. I don't think anybody disagrees here. But plenty of Ogre/Barbarian Shamans have leveled to 60 just fine.

FSI is the Min/Max option because the point of leveling is to get to 60 and play the endgame. Once you get to level 60, faster leveling is irrelevant. Plently of people play their level 60 characters for years.

FSI is better than Troll/Iksar regen once you have Torpor. Shamans can tank well in groups, so it isn't like FSI provides no benefit for a player who prefers to group.

[Snaggles]

Not every thread has to be a holy war for your one thing. To date, the thousands of posts hasn’t produced enough “proof” to hang a hat on. Because nobody has bash-interupt on GINA and has documented every death in WW for the last decade.

Sometimes when a new player asks a question just answer the question. In this case, they already want to play a race (a very common thing) and are justifying if it’s too much of a struggle. We acknowledged it is more a struggle than the other races because a JBB is like 1/10ths price of a turnkey epic. Also that an uphill battle doesn’t mean one that can’t be climbed. Iksars make the best monks and necros, people still opt not to make them all the time…the shaman racial perks outside the JBB access are almost indistinguishable.

If someone really wants to “just get to endgame” the choice is very obvious…get a barb epic’ed and enjoy the 5% penalty instead of the 15% or 20% one. I’d rant more about that but again, not what the OP wanted to know. They don’t want to justify playing a barbarian.

[Toxigen]

bUt muH MiN mAX !!!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not every thread has to be a holy war for your one thing.


Not every threads needs to be trolled by nonsense posting like this. I am im no holy war, nor did I start this topic in this thread. You don't read theads and make false assumptions. Please stop making up nonsense like this.


To date, the thousands of posts hasn’t produced enough “proof” to hang a hat on. Because nobody has bash-interupt on GINA and has documented every death in WW for the last decade.


Incorrect. I have provided plenty of math and evidence already. You do not simply get to handwave it all away because you are too lazy to provide counter evidence and logic of your own to rebut what I have presented.

If you think this level of proof is required, then you also need to provide a decade of regeneration data to prove how often people are even under 100% HP to prove your position.


Sometimes when a new player asks a question just answer the question. In this case, they already want to play a race (a very common thing) and are justifying if it’s too much of a struggle. We acknowledged it is more a struggle than the other races because a JBB is like 1/10ths price of a turnkey epic. Also that an uphill battle doesn’t mean one that can’t be climbed. Iksars make the best monks and necros, people still opt not to make them all the time…the shaman racial perks outside the JBB access are almost indistinguishable.


I did just answer the question. I didn't change the topic. You really need to talk to the trolls and people who consistently derail threads, not me. You keep avoiding the real problem.


If someone really wants to “just get to endgame” the choice is very obvious…get a barb epic’ed and enjoy the 5% penalty instead of the 15% or 20% one. I’d rant more about that but again, not what the OP wanted to know. They don’t want to justify playing a barbarian.

Getting to 60 faster is not Min/Max, but you are correct a Barbarian can level faster if someone wants to do that.

[Jimjam]

OP, if you’re still reading please remember that the point isn’t to hit 60 - that is just when the levels stop (at this point in the time line). The point is to enjoy the process, have fun, make friends (or at least enjoy hanging out).

Honestly I think you’ll have more fun not zombiebraining wrist spam!

[fortior]

everyone always says that xp penalties don't matter at 60 but they conveniently forget that time at 60 is infinitely more profitable than time getting to 60, since you have way more raid oppts and cash camps available. doubly so for shamans who get torpor.

this means that if you take 2 months longer to level to 60 as an ogre than as a barbarian, and at 60 you can do the same camps as either race, you're forever 2 months behind in plat/dkp as the ogre until you reach BiS

[DeathsSilkyMist]

everyone always says that xp penalties don't matter at 60 but they conveniently forget that time at 60 is infinitely more profitable than time getting to 60, since you have way more raid oppts and cash camps available. doubly so for shamans who get torpor.

this means that if you take 2 months longer to level to 60 as an ogre than as a barbarian, and at 60 you can do the same camps as either race, you're forever 2 months behind in plat/dkp as the ogre until you reach BiS

If someone is really worried about leveling to 60 asap, the answer isn't picking which race has the best XP bonus. The answer is having a good leveling strategy and playing with a static group. That will get you to 60 faster than anything else.

Min/Max is looking at which race/class combination is the most powerful at level 60 with Torpor, Epic, Raid Gear, etc. This is because Min/Max looks at the end result, not how to get to the end result. The answer to what is Min/Max for a Shaman is Ogre due to FSI.

[Troxx]

idk man

new / low budget players that have no intention to ever solo artist with their shaman but rather will focus on grouping and getting to 60 will benefit a lot more from regen than FSI

Yeah … regen is just better for the full scope of a shaman’s life.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yeah … regen is just better for the full scope of a shaman’s life.

Still incorrect, FSI is better in the endgame. Ogre is the Min/Max option. You still haven't provided anything to back up this claim regarding regeneration, nor have you disproven anything I have said.

[Toxigen]

jesus christ lmao

[DeathsSilkyMist]

jesus christ lmao

Agreed. It doesn't make sense why people keep posting information that they cannot back up, but insist are true. It's like someone constantly posting "Rusty Weapons are better in melee than ToV Weapons, and I don't need to back this point up with any evidence". It's quite easy to disprove this.

[Troxx]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ef/2c/13/ef2c133e8c8d257ca8e0d91652d5c491.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ef/2c/13/ef2c133e8c8d257ca8e0d91652d5c491.gif

Agreed. Your idea that you can simply state something is true without anything to back it up is a joke. Unfortunately trolling isn't valid evidence either, even though that is a common tactic of yours.

[Tann]

jesus christ lmao

Page 11.. a reminder for the topic:

Hey Shamans,

I'm looking at making an iksar shaman because I think they look cool, but wanted to get some experienced solo shamans takes first.
Is missing out on JBB going to hinder me on any solo challenges or is it mostly just for powerleveling yourself?

Cheers Nerds!

[Troxx]

11 pages? This is nothing. We got us another DSM thread!

Key take home points:

-JBB is, at best, marginally useful other than PLing the late 40s and early 50s
-Racial regen > FSI
-the best solo artist shaman was a barbarian
-iksar shaman will do great

[DeathsSilkyMist]

11 pages? This is nothing. We got us another DSM thread!

Key take home points:

-JBB is, at best, marginally useful other than PLing the late 40s and early 50s
-Racial regen > FSI


Please stop lying. Trolling and lying helps nobody. These two statements are trivial to disprove. Why are you so destructive?

[bcbrown]

These two statements are trivial to disprove.

Given that we're at something of an impasse regarding the latter statement, I'd be very interested in seeing you disprove the former statement. And I'm not talking about mathematical notation; any format will do. For what target is JBB necessary?

[Jimjam]

Please stop lying. Trolling and lying helps nobody. These two statements are trivial to disprove. Why are you so destructive?

Examples of there being situations where FSI may be more useful than regen is certainly evidence for the case, but it doesn't disprove regen being being better than FSI.

Saying FSI helps you solo dragons at 60 better than regen may be true, but so is the fact that a rusty halberd helps bowquest better than any ToV melee weapon (due to how damage bonus works). I think we can agree just because we have an example of rusty halberd being better than tov weapons doesn't disprove the assertion that ToV weapons are better than rusty halberds.

[Duik]

Caaant. Beèeeee. Wronnnnng. Angerr. Risinng.

StressBall: ahhhhh yo lucky sucker, this stress ball just saved your life.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Examples of there being situations where FSI may be more useful than regen is certainly evidence for the case, but it doesn't disprove regen being being better than FSI.

Saying FSI helps you solo dragons at 60 better than regen may be true, but so is the fact that a rusty halberd helps bowquest better than any ToV melee weapon (due to how damage bonus works). I think we can agree just because we have an example of rusty halberd being better than tov weapons doesn't disprove the assertion that ToV weapons are better than rusty halberds.

The issue is you haven't proven Regen is better than FSI to begin with. You cannot simply assume this is the case for whatever reason.

Thus far I have provided a lot more evidence showing FSI is the Min/Max option than the opposition. It is easy to rebut the claims put forth so far from the opposition with math and evidence too.

This is the problem, you are claiming Regen has already been proven to be better than FSI without merit, and this makes no sense. Nobody has actually done this.

[Toxigen]

https://i.imgur.com/e5yN1G1.jpg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Given that we're at something of an impasse regarding the latter statement, I'd be very interested in seeing you disprove the former statement. And I'm not talking about mathematical notation; any format will do. For what target is JBB necessary?

I didn't say JBB was necessary to kill mobs. That doesn't make it useless. No Shaman racial item gives you the ability to kill a specific mob that you normally couldn't. This means you simply need to look at which racial item gives you the most use comparatively.

When it comes to leveling, JBB can take you from 45-60 if you don't have Epic. Claiming it is only good from 45-51 is nonsensical.

Spamming a manaless clickie nuke like JBB is more efficient than using your mana DoTs to kill mobs. It's the same reason why Epic is a good leveling tool.

Spamming JBB is 32 DPS, and a hasted level 55 pet is roughly 17 DPS. Epic DoT is almost 16 DPS. Pet + JBB spam is the equivalent of Epic DoTing 3 mobs at a time. Just like using Epic to DoT mobs, this strategy is manaless in terms of the DPS.

Without Epic, root rotting three mobs at a time takes a minimum of 300 mana for roots, and 320 mana x 6 = 1920 mana for Dots. That is 2220 mana per 3 mobs.

JBB spam + pet + slow + face tanking costs 250 mana per mob, and some damage taken per mob. That is 750 mana total, and some damage.

If Troxx wants to show JBB becomes useless 51+, they need to show a more efficient strategy in terms of DPS vs. mana/hp spent for leveling. As per usual, Troxx is unwilling and probably unable to do this.

When you hit level 60, JBB is still a good tool. It saves you mana when clearing trash mobs in lower level dungeons. It is a good way to finish a mob at 2 or 3 percent instead of wasting the mana on a fresh DoT. It provides free damage in long fights when all debuffs and dots have been applied.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/e5yN1G1.jpg

Again, I am not sure why you keep bringing up leveling. Everybody already agrees Regen is better while leveling, including myself. Min/Max is not about the fastest way to level. Claiming FSI provides no bonus while leveling is also silly. It isn't like FSI turns on at 60 lol.

I am talking about the best Min/Max racial, which looks at which racial is best at level 60 with Torpor and good gear. FSI is the best racial trait in this scenario. Thus far you haven't shown anything that disproves this.

[Jimjam]

The issue is you haven't proven Regen is better than FSI to begin with. You cannot simply assume this is the case for whatever reason.

Thus far I have provided a lot more evidence showing FSI is the Min/Max option than the opposition. It is easy to rebut the claims put forth so far from the opposition with math and evidence too.

This is the problem, you are claiming Regen has already been proven to be better than FSI without merit, and this makes no sense. Nobody has actually done this.

I'm not assuming regen is better - my position is the assumptions / value judgements / aims / motivations of each player will result in different answers for which racial is best.

The only way to get a one-size-fits-all 'best' is to be too reductionist in assumptions.

[Toxigen]

only dsm would take a meme and argue against it

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not assuming regen is better - my position is the assumptions / value judgements / aims / motivations of each player will result in different answers for which racial is best.

The only way to get a one-size-fits-all 'best' is to be too reductionist in assumptions.

In a video game, there are fixed rules and maths you cannot change. This naturally means some things are factually better than others. This is not reductionism, it is simply the truth. ToV weapons will always be better than rusty weapons in melee, regardless of what a player's preferences are.

I am not forcing people to take the Min/Max option. I am simply providing the factual truth of what the Min/Max option is.

Knowledge is power. Let people know the facts so they can decide how they want to play.

Regret comes from not knowing something and making a mistake because of it. If someone picks Troll because they think it is Min/Max, they will regret this later. Ogre is Min/Max. If they pick troll because they prefer Regen, not because it is Min/Max, then they won't regret it. They were able to make an informed decision with all the facts.

[Jimjam]

In a video game, there are fixed rules and maths you cannot change. This naturally means some things are factually better than others. This is not reductionism, it is simply the truth.

There are fixed rules and maths, I've acknowledged that. That was literally part of my argument. However, what you either fail or refuse to realise - despite it having been clearly spelt out - is there unquantifiable extraneous factors can't simply be ignored.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There are fixed rules and maths, I've acknowledged that. That was literally part of my argument. However, what you either fail or refuse to realise - despite it having been clearly spelt out - is there unquantifiable extraneous factors can't simply be ignored.

Like what? Player preference does not change the fact that FSI is quantifiably better than Regen at level 60 with Torpor.

If you think Regen is quantifiably better than FSI at level 60 with Torpor, you need to bring facts and evidence to support it.

This is a factual discussion, not a player preference discussion. One racial is better than the other, regardless of your preference.

[Jimjam]

This is a factual discussion, not a values discussion. Then the fact is this discussion has no value.

[Toxigen]

Then the fact is this discussion has no value.

boom! headshot

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Then the fact is this discussion has no value.

The benefit of the discussion is dispeling false information about Shaman racials. Unfortunately when people cannot bring logic and evidence to support their positions, they resort to trolling instead. This hurts all the players trying to get answers to basic questions about the game.

I am not sure why people want to hurt others by providing bad information and trolling.

[7thGate]

everyone always says that xp penalties don't matter at 60 but they conveniently forget that time at 60 is infinitely more profitable than time getting to 60, since you have way more raid oppts and cash camps available. doubly so for shamans who get torpor.

this means that if you take 2 months longer to level to 60 as an ogre than as a barbarian, and at 60 you can do the same camps as either race, you're forever 2 months behind in plat/dkp as the ogre until you reach BiS

I am fully convinced by this argument, and now believe Barbarian has the best racial.

Realistically, you get the best gear by raiding. The most effective raiding setup is to actually be raiding, which requires being high level, which requires getting to high level. Being at raid level for a longer period of time is therefore a stronger boost to character performance than any of the other racials.

None of the other racials have a meaningful impact outside soloing, but soloing is generally not a mix-max approach vs. raiding anyway. Its fine for FSI to be better at soloing, though that hasn't been proven (especially vs. Iksar, with both AC and regen benefits potentially increasing the steady-state damage taken). But that's not a min-max setup even if it is due to lack of contribution to small group content and raiding situations.

Even solo, you have to have enough cases over the course of your career where FSI saves you in a solo camp situation to make up for the additional time spent being able to solo camp by being at 60 with Torpor earlier. I am extremely skeptical this is the case for anyone, especially anyone who does not play 40+ hours/week.

If FSI causes your success rate on killing Ayllish to go from 78%->81% or similar level of impact, but Barb XP bonus let you hit 60 and camp 25 extra Ayllishes before you would have as an Ogre, you have to do 833 Ayllishes before you pull ahead on the Ogre. At that point you're starting to get into "CHA is optimal warrior starting stats bc DI" levels of Min-Maxery that, while technically true, don't apply to anyone who isn't playing for tens of thousands of hours.

You have to quantify somehow how much this is helping before being able to confidently assert you're actually ahead vs. the Barb XP bonus on a given amount of time invested playing, you can't just say that its better so is obviously superior.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thanks for the reply!


Realistically, you get the best gear by raiding. The most effective raiding setup is to actually be raiding, which requires being high level, which requires getting to high level. Being at raid level for a longer period of time is therefore a stronger boost to character performance than any of the other racials.


The time you need to spend on raiding is more based on luck than on leveling efficiency. Drop rate and your guild's ability to consistently kill the targets you want is the biggest factor. You could cheat at the game and get a level 60 instantly, and still spend more time in total getting full BiS gear than another player who took 6 months to level to 60.


None of the other racials have a meaningful impact outside soloing, but soloing is generally not a mix-max approach vs. raiding anyway. Its fine for FSI to be better at soloing, though that hasn't been proven (especially vs. Iksar, with both AC and regen benefits potentially increasing the steady-state damage taken). But that's not a min-max setup even if it is due to lack of contribution to small group content and raiding situations.


So far I have provided a lot more evidence to support FSI is better than Regen at level 60 with Torpor than the opposition. Whether you are soloing, grouping, or raiding, racial regeneration provides little benefit to a Torpor Shaman.

Racials do indeed matter the most when soloing. Shamans are one of the classes that can solo, group, and raid equally well. Many people pick classes like Shaman or Enchanter specifically because they can solo with their character when groups/raids are not available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k - Here is an example of a simulated raid buffing session buffing 10 people. Racial Regeneration would save a Shaman 30 seconds at best for recovery time, which is not going to help the raid in any meaningful way. No competent raid is Shaman buffing 10 people 30 seconds before a big fight.

You can extrapolate these raid results to group play as well. Can you think of a time where you spent this much mana in a 12 minute period in a group? If not, then you would realize that you probably aren't even getting 30 seconds of improved recovery time per hour in a group, as you are more likely to be at full mana and hp. The nice thing about groups is they split the duties.


Even solo, you have to have enough cases over the course of your career where FSI saves you in a solo camp situation to make up for the additional time spent being able to solo camp by being at 60 with Torpor earlier. I am extremely skeptical this is the case for anyone, especially anyone who does not play 40+ hours/week.

If FSI causes your success rate on killing Ayllish to go from 78%->81% or similar level of impact, but Barb XP bonus let you hit 60 and camp 25 extra Ayllishes before you would have as an Ogre, you have to do 833 Ayllishes before you pull ahead on the Ogre. At that point you're starting to get into "CHA is optimal warrior starting stats bc DI" levels of Min-Maxery that, while technically true, don't apply to anyone who isn't playing for tens of thousands of hours.

You have to quantify somehow how much this is helping before being able to confidently assert you're actually ahead vs. the Barb XP bonus on a given amount of time invested playing, you can't just say that its better so is obviously superior.

Min/Max is not about how quickly it takes to level. It is about how effective your character is in the endgame. This is because leveling speed is mostly a factor of how you play, rather than what racial bonuses you have. Ogre/Troll/Iksar Shamans have leveled faster than Barbarians due to twinking, play time, effective leveling strategies, etc. If you really want to level to 60 ASAP, there are better ways than simply picking Barbarian when you create your new Shaman.

If you are a casual player who only plays a few hours a day, you are playing the game inefficiently anyway. There is no way you can "Min/Max leveling" by doing this. It doesn't really make sense to say "Barbarians are the Min/Max race for leveling inefficiently". At that point you could make a "Min/Max" for every possible thing a player could do. This would completely destroy the normal definition of "Min/Max", because nobody knows what you are trying to "Min/Max". By default Min/Max means the best possible character you could create, assuming you got to level 60, have the best gear, and have all your spells. Ogre is the best Min/Max Shaman due to FSI.

[7thGate]

Min/Max is not about how quickly it takes to level. It is about how effective your character is in the endgame. This is because leveling speed is mostly a factor of how you play, rather than what racial bonuses you have. Ogre/Troll/Iksar Shamans have leveled faster than Barbarians due to twinking, play time, effective leveling strategies, etc. If you really want to level to 60 ASAP, there are better ways than simply picking Barbarian when you create your new Shaman.

Whatever you do to XP though, and there are different methods that will vary in speed, you do it 20% faster on a Barbarian. Its much more debateable how much regen improves things vs. FSI, but the Barb should definitely be much ahead of the Ogre.

Almost nobody reaches actual end game everquest, where you're BIS and have no more progression. End Game for most people is raiding with some mix of high end/BIS pieces, or farming items. You're going to be ahead by some noticeable amount on both of these goals if you're using a Barbarian vs. an Ogre, and it will likely take a very substantial amount of time for the Ogre to catch up.

They will never catch up in a raiding context until you reach BIS, you will always be a fixed amount of DKP ahead on the Barbarian until you run out of things to spend DKP on. If there is a quantifiable difference in farming speed or success rate with having FSI they will eventually catch up with the Barbarian's head start, but it needs to be quantified to see whether it is actually reasonable for that to happen.

As a more concrete example of what I'm talking about, if you ask the question "which race lets me farm the most stuff by 2030 on this new shaman I'm making", the answer is probably Barbarian. I'm really skeptical that the other racials do enough to make up for having potentially weeks of additional time with Torpor.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Whatever you do to XP though, and there are different methods that will vary in speed, you do it 20% faster on a Barbarian. Its much more debateable how much regen improves things vs. FSI, but the Barb should definitely be much ahead of the Ogre.

Almost nobody reaches actual end game everquest, where you're BIS and have no more progression. End Game for most people is raiding with some mix of high end/BIS pieces, or farming items. You're going to be ahead by some noticeable amount on both of these goals if you're using a Barbarian vs. an Ogre, and it will likely take a very substantial amount of time for the Ogre to catch up.

They will never catch up in a raiding context until you reach BIS, you will always be a fixed amount of DKP ahead on the Barbarian until you run out of things to spend DKP on. If there is a quantifiable difference in farming speed or success rate with having FSI they will eventually catch up with the Barbarian's head start, but it needs to be quantified to see whether it is actually reasonable for that to happen.

As a more concrete example of what I'm talking about, if you ask the question "which race lets me farm the most stuff by 2030 on this new shaman I'm making", the answer is probably Barbarian. I'm really skeptical that the other racials do enough to make up for having potentially weeks of additional time with Torpor.

Again, Min/Max is not about leveling speed. That isn't the normal definition for any item based game like Everquest where you get to max level and then play the endgame. In a game like Everquest plenty of people play the endgame longer than the leveling game.

Changing the definition of Min/Max to "who can level the fastest" is not the correct way to approach this debate.

[7thGate]

Again, Min/Max is not about leveling speed. That isn't the normal definition for any item based game like Everquest where you get to max level and then play the endgame. In a game like Everquest plenty of people play the endgame longer than the leveling game.

Changing the definition of Min/Max to "who can level the fastest" is not the correct way to approach this debate.

The part that seems to be disconnecting here is that "who can get the most done in the endgame" is a reasonable metric for Min/Max. The amount you accomplish in the endgame is a function of the amount of time you spend in the endgame and the rate at which you accomplish stuff.

Several of the racials theoretically help you accomplish stuff better in the end game, like FSI. The XP penalty reduction gives you more time in the end game by getting you there faster. When you're measuring the amount of stuff you're actually going to accomplish in the end game because of your racial, its a solid contender because of the additional time you get.

If making a choice causes you to accomplish less for a character, that's not the min-max choice. Targeting for optimal theoretical end game where you have everything is almost always a bad idea.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The part that seems to be disconnecting here is that "who can get the most done in the endgame" is a reasonable metric for Min/Max.

I disagree. One of the main reasons why this isn't a valid metric is because games like Everquest are based more on luck than skill.

If your definition of Min/Max is "who can get full BiS the fastest", there is no strategy you can employ to guarantee being the first person to full BiS gear. This is because it is 100% possible that the item you need to complete full BiS only drops when an opposing guild kills the mob. Someone in the opposing guild, who spent 2 more months leveling than you did, could get BiS gear faster than yourself, even though they took longer to start raiding.

Even if your guild is monopolizing a specific target, that doesn't mean the item will drop when you are there, unless you can make it to every single kill. You also need to consider the possibility you lose the item to someone else bidding more DKP. There are plenty of factors completely out of your control that slow down your progress.

Targeting for optimal theoretical end game where you have everything

This is the normal definition of Min/Max for games like Everquest. The reason for this is simple: The goal of Everquest is to complete your character. Get them to max level, get all of their spells, and get the best items. Of course many players never accomplish this goal, but the goal is still there. Unfortunately the luck based nature of games like Everquest make it impossible to build a strategy that guarantees you will reach this goal in a specific amount of time. That is why things like leveling speed aren't really a big factor, unless you level so slowly you never reach level 60 to begin with. If you are dedicated enough to reach level 60 and start raiding, you could reach full BiS gear faster than a person who has been raiding longer than you have.

[7thGate]

I disagree. One of the main reasons why this isn't a valid metric is because games like Everquest are based more on luck than skill.

If your definition of Min/Max is "who can get full BiS the fastest", there is no strategy you can employ to guarantee being the first person to full BiS gear. This is because it is 100% possible that the item you need to complete full BiS only drops when an opposing guild kills the mob. Someone in the opposing guild, who spent 2 more months leveling than you did, could get BiS gear faster than yourself, even though they took longer to start raiding.

Making decisions that decrease your chances of success is still bad, even if there's enough luck involved in the game to win or lose regardless. You can die more with FSI than without it because you just got unlucky on slows relative to the other shaman, that doesn't make it worse at soloing things.

You accomplish more faster by being 60 faster, which makes the choice that gets you to 60 faster a strong end game benefit even though it doesn't do anything once you reach 60.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Making decisions that decrease your chances of success is still bad, even if there's enough luck involved in the game to win or lose regardless. You can die more with FSI than without it because you just got unlucky on slows relative to the other shaman, that doesn't make it worse at soloing things.

You accomplish more faster by being 60 faster, which makes the choice that gets you to 60 faster a strong end game benefit even though it doesn't do anything once you reach 60.

You are overestimating how much benefit you are getting from the xp bonus.

Lets assume you are playing as efficiently as possible with plenty of twink gear.

In PoM rat maze I was getting 1 level per 20 hours or so. That means going from 56-60 takes 100 hours.

Leveling from 1-50 with heavy twinkage is something like 1 hour per level, which means 50 hours.

200ish hours to get from 1-60 on a twinked character seems reasonable.

A Barbarian gets 40 extra hours of endgame at best, assuming you think FSI and Regen provide no increase in leveling speed.

40 hours is like 5 Ayillish kills due to her respawn timer, assuming you got every kill. That is something like 25kpp over an Ogre, or a bit more DKP.

There is no evidence to suggest 40 extra hours of raiding over a characters total lifespan is enough to guarantee full BiS gear earlier than another player. The game just doesn't work like that.

[7thGate]

There is no evidence to suggest 40 extra hours of raiding over a characters total lifespan is enough to guarantee full BiS gear earlier than another player. The game just doesn't work like that.

It very obviously increases your chances of getting to full BIS faster to have earned more DKP or plat, in the same way that FSI very obviously increases your chances of successfully soloing something. While you're correct that its not nearly significant enough to guarantee you get ahead of another shaman with less time, the same thing can be said for FSI; there's no guarantee having it actually results in you succeeding more than a shaman that doesn't have it, it just gives you better odds.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It very obviously increases your chances of getting to full BIS faster to have earned more DKP or plat, in the same way that FSI very obviously increases your chances of successfully soloing something. While you're correct that its not nearly significant enough to guarantee you get ahead of another shaman with less time, the same thing can be said for FSI; there's no guarantee having it actually results in you succeeding more than a shaman that doesn't have it, it just gives you better odds.

If you have played in a serious raiding guild, you would know that 40 hours is very little time. This is because most of it may be spent waiting for mobs to pop. Remember that the 40 hours is not "40 hours of killing raid targets when they are spawned and your guild got FTE", it is "40 hours of raiding, including waiting for mobs to spawn, including losing a mob to other guilds, etc."

Realistically speaking you have no evidence to suggest the 40 hours (at best) of extra endgame will end up being better than having FSI for your character's entire playtime.

You have no evidence to support your position, and you are changing the normal definition of Min/Max. I don't see any victory for you here in this debate so far.

[Jimjam]

… you’re the one who is defining a very narrow category of dragons in an mmo as min max.

It’s a mmo - solo has nothing to do with min max.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

… you’re the one who is defining a very narrow category of dragons in an mmo as min max.

It’s a mmo - solo has nothing to do with min max.

Incorrect. You have nothing to back up this claim either. I never said Min/Max is about killing WW Dragons.

I did not create the definition of Min/Max for games primarily focused on acquiring items and playing an endgame to acquire endgame items.

There are people who are changing the definition of Min/Max to fit their own arguments for sure. Please go and talk to them if you think it's a problem. I am using the correct and normal definition of Min/Max already. This definition is which race/class combination is the strongest in the endgame. In the case of Shamans, Ogre Shamans are the Min/Max option.

[Toxigen]

godamn DSM just got pimp slapped by a real G

[DeathsSilkyMist]

godamn DSM just got pimp slapped by a real G

Simply saying random things is not an argument. Sorry you don't got.

[Jimjam]

I enjoy reading your posts and even viewing some of your videos.

I must ask, if soloing ww dragons isn’t to do with minmax then why have you spent thousands of hours between videos of soloing ww dragons, maths and general forum posting to support your arguments that fsi is min max?

[bcbrown]

If you are a casual player who only plays a few hours a day, you are playing the game inefficiently anyway. There is no way you can "Min/Max leveling" by doing this.

What's the most efficient number of hours per day to spend playing EQ?

[Jimjam]

What's the most efficient number of hours per day to spend playing EQ?

72 - play a toon on all 3 p99 servers concurrently.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I enjoy reading your posts and even viewing some of your videos.


Thanks!


I must ask, if soloing ww dragons isn’t to do with minmax then why have you spent thousands of hours between videos of soloing ww dragons, maths and general forum posting to support your arguments that fsi is min max?

I could easily retort with another question: "Why do multiple forum users spend thousands of hours trolling threads and providing false information they clearly have no evidence for?" To me that is the bigger question.

I make videos showing examples of how the game works, to support my arguments. Soloing WW Dragons is a good example of what a long face tanking fight looks like on a Torpor Shaman. The reason why long fights are useful evidence is because it "Steel Mans" Iksar/Troll Regeneration. There is nothing special about WW Dragons in terms of Min/Maxing. It is literally just an example fight, which people have tried to twist into me being "obsessed" with them. I don't have time to create videos on every single fight a Shaman could possibly do.

If I wanted to claim Iksar/Troll Regeneration is barely used at level 60 in a lazy way, I could easily just post videos of 2-3 minute fights. You would only get 160-240 HP back per fight in that case from Iksar/Troll Regeneration. This is 1/5th of a Torpor, and negligible at best.

Instead I show the strongest position for Iksar/Troll Regeneration, which are long fights, and then explain why FSI is still better from a Min/Max perspective.

I just want people to get the correct information on the game. I am not sure why that is such a problem for people.

[Naethyn]

I solo'd Tserrina on my human warrior.

[Jimjam]

But soloing ww dragons isn’t a min max situation so it isn’t really valid evidence.

In minmax situations stamina isn’t an issue for shamans.

From what I can tell shamans end game (so min maz) role is in tov landing resist debuffs, slow and patch healing. Oh and buffing. How applicable are ww dragon solos to these?

Edit: sorry guys, I’m getting drawn off topic. Defining and testing min max is really beyond the scope of this thread. Please accept my apologies.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But soloing ww dragons isn’t a min max situation so it isn’t really valid evidence.

In minmax situations stamina isn’t an issue for shamans.

From what I can tell shamans end game (so min maz) role is in tov landing resist debuffs, slow and patch healing. Oh and buffing. How applicable are ww dragon solos to these?

In Everquest the reality is people Solo, Group, and Raid. This means you need to consider all three of these playstyles for Min/Max. It's not really correct to say "Endgame is only raiding", when you can clearly see plenty of level 60's soloing content consistently across P99's lifetime. Same with grouping to kill mobs like Fungi King.

But for a moment, let's humor your idea that Raiding is the only thing that matters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k - This is an example of raid buffing 10 people. In that time, an Iksar/Troll would gain around 1k HP over a Barbarian/Ogre. This is the equivalent of 1 Torpor. A raid is gaining no benefit from a Shaman recovering 30 seconds faster after a buff session.

An important role Shamans have in Raids is landing slows. Shamans use https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh in melee to potentially land slows faster in critical fights. FSI increases your chance of landing a proc, because your autoattacks are not being interrupted by a random stun if you gain agro. You are also reducing the odds of your cast Slows being interrupted. Iksar/Troll Regeneration is too slow to save you from a Flurry Drake quadding you for 700, so FSI is more useful. Any Shaman who consistently gets agro from a raid mob is dying in like 30 seconds or less. Iksar/Troll Regeneration isn't going to save you.

The only time Iksar/Troll Regeneration is somewhat useful in a raid is reducing AoE damage from the few fights where you can't really resist it. Increasing the chance of landing slows is more important than that since AoE damage is already manageable without Iksar/Troll Regeneration.

[Naethyn]

There are shamans with plane of sky ring and shamans without plane of sky ring and that is the biggest differentiator.

[Ripqozko]

If you have played in a serious raiding guild, you would know that 40 hours is very little time. This is because most of it may be spent waiting for mobs to pop. Remember that the 40 hours is not "40 hours of killing raid targets when they are spawned and your guild got FTE", it is "40 hours of raiding, including waiting for mobs to spawn, including losing a mob to other guilds, etc."

Realistically speaking you have no evidence to suggest the 40 hours (at best) of extra endgame will end up being better than having FSI for your character's entire playtime.

You have no evidence to support your position, and you are changing the normal definition of Min/Max. I don't see any victory for you here in this debate so far.

You never played in a serious guild, AM and VQ were after the server was dead

[PatChapp]

This is a lot of arguing over something pretty pointless

Focus plk

[Tann]

jesus

christ

lmao

The posts are getting longer and longer with every new page

[fortior]

you can't minmax without a goal to achieve, there is no intrinsic goal you are given in EQ. you have to actually minmax 'for' something, some sort of task or challenge. there's no main quest or achievement list. the closest thing is getting to max level, which barbarians do fastest. getting BiS is another 'obvious' goal which is just time spent raiding, again barbarians win.

if you can kill a mob as an ogre shaman as well as a barbarian shaman, the barbarian shaman is the minmax option because you can do it sooner, since both kill at the same rate, and there's no mob in the game one can kill but the other can't.

a race that takes a penalty to experience in return for a benefit that doesn't translate to killing speed or killing ability is just something you pick for vanity. it's not like iksar monks, who get a huge advantage in regen which helps while xping, or mage, where gnomes can coth effectively while the other races need shrinks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

you can't minmax without a goal to achieve, there is no intrinsic goal you are given in EQ. you have to actually minmax 'for' something, some sort of task or challenge. there's no main quest or achievement list. the closest thing is getting to max level, which barbarians do fastest. getting BiS is another 'obvious' goal which is just time spent raiding, again barbarians win.

if you can kill a mob as an ogre shaman as well as a barbarian shaman, the barbarian shaman is the minmax option because you can do it sooner, since both kill at the same rate, and there's no mob in the game one can kill but the other can't.

a race that takes a penalty to experience in return for a benefit that doesn't translate to killing speed or killing ability is just something you pick for vanity. it's not like iksar monks, who get a huge advantage in regen which helps while xping, or mage, where gnomes can coth effectively while the other races need shrinks.

It is strange that you admit Iksar Monks are clearly better than Human Monks, but you simultaneously claim that there is no default definition for Min/Max. You can't claim there is no default definition for Min/Max, because then you would have no basis in which to say Iksar Monks are superior. This is why you are wrong in saying there is no default definition of Min/Max.

By admitting Iksar Monks are clearly better than Human Monks, you admit there is an objective best racial for different race/class combinations. You can't have it both ways and say that Shamans don't also have an objective best racial.

You know the definition of Min/Max subconsciously, because you understand Iksar Monks are objectively better than Human Monks. This Min/Max definition is the default definition for all games like Everquest. The default Min/Max definition is to create the best character you can. This means a character that will perform better than it's alternatives when you are level 60 with max gear and all your spells. This is why Iksar Monks are objectively better than Human Monks, because a level 60 BiS Iksar Monk will still have Racial Regeneration, while a level 60 BiS Human Monk would not.

I am not sure why this is so difficult, the Min/Max definition for games like Everquest hasn't changed, and Everquest came out in 1999.

[fortior]

It is weird that you admit Iksar Monks are clearly better than Human Monks, but you simultaneously think that there is no definition of Min/Maxing. This is why you are wrong in saying there is no default definition of Min/Max.

By admitting Iksar Monks are clearly better than Human Monks, you admit there is an objective best racial for different race/class combinations. You can't have it both ways and say that Shamans don't also have an objective best racial.

You know the definition of Min/Max subconsciously, because you understand Iksar Monks are objectively better than Human Monks. This Min/Max definition is the default definition for all games like Everquest. The default Min/Max definition is to create the best character you can. This means a character that will perform better than it's alternatives when you are level 60 with max gear and all your spells. This is why Iksar Monks are objectively better than Human Monks, because a level 60 BiS Iksar Monk will still have Racial Regeneration, while a level 60 BiS Human Monk would not.

I am not sure why this is so difficult, the Min/Max definition for games like Everquest hasn't changed, and Everquest came out in 1999.

Monks don't have torpor or slow, theyre a melee class, so there's stuff an iksar monk can kill that an equivalently geared human monk can't. for shamans every shaman with torpor can do the exact same mobs, which is anything they can slow or anything that deals less damage than torpor. If there is a goal ogre shamans can achieve which other shamans can't, the situation would be different, but there isn't.

disregarding xp maluses as irrelevant is spherical cow stuff, if you do it you basically don't know anything about the game or p99's version of it. P99 is a very competitive classic EQ box, speed is king. if there are two options, and one levels faster, and both can do the same content, the faster option is better

You can't say one race performs better than another when there is no content in the game that distinguishes between them, i.e. which one race can do but another can't. my iksar monk can solo things my human monk can't at similar gear levels, it's not the same situation (since the difference is just a bunch of hp regen and ac on a melee)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Monks don't have torpor or slow, theyre a melee class, so there's stuff an iksar monk can kill that an equivalently geared human monk can't. for shamans every shaman with torpor can do the exact same mobs, which is anything they can slow or anything that deals less damage than torpor. If there is a goal ogre shamans can achieve which other shamans can't, the situation would be different, but there isn't.


You admitted that some racials are better than others. It doesn't matter if the racial bonus is significant or not. The same logic applies. You can rank order any racial in terms of best to worse on any class, even if the racial is only a minor bonus. You can't have it both ways and say racials on Monks can be rank ordered, but racials from other classes cannot be rank ordered.


disregarding xp maluses as irrelevant is spherical cow stuff, if you do it you basically don't know anything about the game or p99's version of it. P99 is a very competitive classic EQ box, speed is king. if there are two options, and one levels faster, and both can do the same content, the faster option is better


Leveling quickly is only relevant for a short time on P99, when the server is new or rolling out new content. Neither server has been like that for years. Trying to claim this is still the case on Green or Blue is silly. Even in that scenario you are not picking the Min/Max option, you are instead picking the fastest leveling option to get a specific item. Sure, you can level a Mage to 50 to farm Manastones, but then you have a 50 Mage you probably aren't going to use in Velious for anything other than a CoTH bot.


You can't say one race performs better than another when there is no content in the game that distinguishes between them, i.e. which one race can do but another can't. my iksar monk can solo things my human monk can't at similar gear levels, it's not the same situation (since the difference is just a bunch of hp regen and ac on a melee)

You easily can. If an Ogre Shaman can win fights more often than Shamans of other races due to FSI, even if that increase in won fights is small, then they are superior.

Your argument that "it isn't significant" is irrelevant. 2% is better than 1%, just like 50% is better than 30%. This is an objective truth regardless of the difference in percentages.

[fortior]

of course some racials have more impact than others, but you don't pick racials, you pick a race and a class. looking at the strength of individual racials is pointless, they're package deals. and the fact is that every shaman package you can pick has the same upper bound of potential, limited more by gear and levels than race, as you can see from the solo artist leaderboard.

essentially it's like spending more money on a faster car only to drive the exact same speed limit as a cheaper car. if there is nothing in game hard enough to demand the supposed advantage ogres have, that advantage doesn't exist.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

looking at the strength of individual racials is pointless, they're package deals.

Not everybody agrees with you. Some people like to Min/Max, which means picking the best racial for a specific class.

I am not sure why you are bothered by this. I am just giving people the facts as to which racial bonus is objectively the best for Shamans. Let people who want to Min/Max enjoy the game too lol.

Knowledge is power. Let people know which racial bonus is objectively the best for a specific class, and then they can decide which race works best for them.

Plenty of people don't care if they pick a suboptimal race. There is nothing wrong with that. But if someone wants to Min/Max specifically, they need information like which racial is the best for a given class.

[Troxx]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/59/f6/44/59f644a611f8e5d4016253d5b713ae95.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx still has nothing to back up their position I see. Hopefully one day they will provide something to back up their claims, other than silly gifs.

[fortior]

again, if a theorized advantage doesn't result in an actual in game power differential, it's not an advantage. you have never shown that ogre shamans can tackle content similarly geared other races can't.

also, you have 0/20 BiS and the last time I saw a game play video you posted, you died in howling stones with 4 charges on your DA earring. youre not exactly an accomplished competitive player in a competitive guild. lots of people on here post semi anonymously but are super experienced players (not me, but theres raid guild leaders, racers, multi bis questers, pvp gods, solo artists in these DSM threads often). the reason you get made fun of often is because you have a huge, unwarranted ego, and you don't seem to really be aware of that fact.

[Troxx]

https://gifdb.com/images/thumbnail/rofl-294-x-310-gif-wkia2w1d14z59lio.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

again, if a theorized advantage doesn't result in an actual in game power differential, it's not an advantage. you have never shown that ogre shamans can tackle content similarly geared other races can't.

also, you have 0/20 BiS and the last time I saw a game play video you posted, you died in howling stones with 4 charges on your DA earring. youre not exactly an accomplished competitive player in a competitive guild. lots of people on here post semi anonymously but are super experienced players (not me, but theres raid guild leaders, racers, multi bis questers, pvp gods, solo artists in these DSM threads often). the reason you get made fun of often is because you have a huge, unwarranted ego, and you don't seem to really be aware of that fact.

When you can't win with logic and facts, accuse the other person of being bad at the game while making up nonsense.

Thanks for admitting you lost.

Throwing a temper tantrum when you've lost a debate doesn't make you look good, or make me look bad.

I'll never understand why people think posting this kind of nonsense is a good idea.

What you fail to realize is the person with the big ego is not the one who brings evidence, logic, and reason to the debate. It is the person who claims "I am right, you are wrong, and I don't need to prove it". That is what you are doing. You think that you know better than everybody else, and all evidence that you disagree with can simply be thrown away. Why do you think you are better than everybody else, and don't need to follow the same standard of proof?

[Troxx]

https://reactiongifs.me/cdn-cgi/imagedelivery/S36QsAbHn6yI9seDZ7V8aA/4558cc5d-61f6-4e43-53c4-700571a10400/w=389

[Tann]

https://i.imgur.com/DJIkoRf.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

quantifiable
adjective
quan·​ti·​fi·​a·​ble ˌkwän-tə-ˈfī-ə-bəl
: able to be expressed as an amount, quantity, or numerical value : capable of being quantified

Clearly, that’s why it’s been your broken record rant for years. Because it’s so easy to prove with math.

The only broken records are the trolls and people who just post "I am right, and you are wrong". It's very tiresome to keep reading the same nonsense, I agree.

If it was easy to prove Regeneration was better than FSI, people would have posted mountains of counter evidence by now to shut me up. I would love for that to happen honestly.

You could post evidence to instead of nonsense like this, but you choose not to. I wonder why.

Thus far I have provided plenty of logic, facts, and evidence to support my claim, and counter the points people generally make. The same cannot be said for people who claim Regeneration is better than FSI. Yet for some reason they feel like they can claim victory for no logical reason. It is baffling.

[Snaggles]

I actually deleted my post thinking if we can’t agree to what words mean it’s a pointless pursuit. Good luck actually quantifying this someday.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I actually deleted my post thinking if we can’t agree to what words mean it’s a pointless pursuit. Good luck actually quantifying this someday.

You could provide logic, evidence, and facts to back up your position instead of nonsense like this.

Thus far, I have shown plenty of logic, evidence, and facts to show why FSI is better than Regen on a Shaman at level 60 with Torpor.

The opposition has not, and refuses to do so. I am honestly not sure why. If it is so obvious, it should be trivial to do. It seems like they are not as confident as they claim to be.

I agree with you that people trolling and posting "I am right, you are wrong" style posts are engaged in a pointless pursuit. They will not convince anybody that they are correct. It just makes them look bad.

[Duik]

Troxx still has nothing to back up their position I see. Hopefully one day they will provide something to back up their claims, other than silly gifs.

Are you using "they", "their" and "them" generically here, or as a snide insulty way to degrade?
It is not clear and it is not the first time.

Also. If you believe you have completed your point that X racial is superior to Y racial because (insert long and convoluted factual facts and mathematical math) dont you think we've muddied the waters of this simple OP question? I mean you've repeated yourself multiple times saying the exact same thing simply because you cant let ANYONE ELSE have the final say.
If you believe they are wrong, simply let your words, math and factual facts speak for themselves.

I know this wont help.

[Penish]

for even more enjoyment invite dsm out and watch him play literally any class for a 3min lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I mean you've repeated yourself multiple times saying the exact same thing simply because you cant let ANYONE ELSE have the final say.
If you believe they are wrong, simply let your words, math and factual facts speak for themselves.


You do realize everyone else is doing the same thing? Yet you only ever complain about me. Rules for thee but not for me.

If you were being sincere, you would call out other posters too. You would also call out the posters who are clearly trolling.

As usual, you are just trolling because you can't provide evidence, logic, and facts to win the debate.

for even more enjoyment invite dsm out and watch him play literally any class for a 3min lol

Be wary when playing with Penish in game. They will group with you under false pretenses. They will do so just to record some video of you playing in a way they thinks is bad, and will then simply leave. This is obviously a waste of your time and a silly attempt at blackmail.

Luckily they don't know enough about the game to actually figure out what people are doing. Penish doesn't understand basic concepts like camp cycling and spawn timers. Penish doesn't understand that killing a mob you want to test something on before the test starts would result in having to wait for respawns to do the test.

[Toxigen]

https://i.imgur.com/e5yN1G1.jpg

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/e5yN1G1.jpg

Why do you insist on trolling and providing false information? It isn't helping anybody, and it just hurts p99.

[Toxigen]

DSM is the only one capable of taking a meme and contorting it into "providing false information"

bruh do you even internet?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM is the only one capable of taking a meme and contorting it into "providing false information"

bruh do you even internet?

I am just stating the truth. You are trolling and providing false information. Nobody cares about your bad attempts at making memes. This forum is designed to answer questions about the game. Feel free to post all your bad memes in RnF.

[Jimjam]

DSM is the only one capable of taking a meme and contorting it into "providing false information"

bruh do you even internet?

You know full well you are providing false information. Our fellow elf sim enthusiast DSM is in Kittens, not AG now.

[Toxigen]

You know full well you are providing false information. Our fellow elf sim enthusiast DSM is in Kittens, not AG now.

damn you got me

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You know full well you are providing false information. Our fellow elf sim enthusiast DSM is in Kittens, not AG now.

Guild affiliation is not relevant to the discussion. If someone wants to prove that Troll/Iksar Regeneration is better than FSI on a level 60 Shaman with Torpor, they simply need to do more than trolling or saying "I am right, you are wrong".

I am not sure why people die on this hill since it is easy to rebut the arguments supporting Troll/Iksar Regeneration at level 60 with Torpor. Nobody is denying that Troll/Iksar Regeneration is better while leveling. FSI is better at 60 with Torpor. Let people know this information so they can decide whether they want to Min/Max with FSI, or level fast with Troll/Iksar Regeneration.

It's really not a big deal if you have a level 60 Shaman that isn't an Ogre. People shouldn't feel the need to obfuscate facts to avoid feeling regret over racial choice. That's what it looks like to me.

[Troxx]

Key take home points:

-JBB is, at best, marginally useful other than PLing the late 40s and early 50s
-Racial regen > FSI
-the best solo artist shaman was a barbarian
-iksar shaman will do great

I can repeat myself too!

Honorable mention argument is that barbarian is actually the best choice for the following reasons

-you have a bear hat
-you’re a polar bear in bear form
-you level to 60 faster significantly faster

Supporting data (100% true):

-at 60 there is literally nothing you cannot do or solo easily as any race. If you can do it on a troll/iksar/ogre you can do it just as easily on a barbarian.
-faster to 60 is bigger jumpstart on the endgame power curve (gear/farming/etc)

/thread

Ps: FSI is almost as overrated as JBB.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I can repeat myself too!


You do indeed like to repeat bad trolls and nonsense.


-at 60 there is literally nothing you cannot do or solo easily as any race. If you can do it on a troll/iksar/ogre you can do it just as easily on a barbarian.
-faster to 60 is bigger jumpstart on the endgame power curve (gear/farming/etc)
Ps: FSI is almost as overrated as JBB.

All of these points are trivial to disprove.

Whether or not you can do more content at 60 is irrelevant to which racial is factually better. FSI gives you a bigger bonus than Iksar/Troll Regen at level 60 with Torpor, and therefore it is better for Min/Maxing.

Leveling speed is not relevant to what is Min/Max. Changing the default definition of Min/Max is not the correct way to win the debate. You clearly know the actual definition of Min/Max, because you agree Iksar Monks are better than Human Monks. The Min/Max definition used to arrive at this conclusion is the same Min/Max definition used to figure out which Shaman racial is best. You cannot have it both ways.

Troxx still has not provided any evidence to support his claims about JBB, and it is easy to disprove his nonsensical idea that JBB is useless levels 50+ with basic math.

Unfortunately Troxx can only provide "I am right and you are wrong" statements and silly gifs. Sadly this is not an argument.

[Toxigen]

i want to go to a holiday party with DSM

[Tann]

we've not quite hit peak performance, this thread is only gaining 1-3 pages per day.

[Naethyn]

It's called an ogre wall on tunare for a reason.

[Naethyn]

also interestingly iksars are the best tank for tunare because of small waist and tall.

[Jimjam]

also interestingly iksars are the best tank for tunare because of small waist and tall.

Not enough analysis of hit and collision boxes from a min max perspective! I love this post!

You know these boxes also change depending on whether the model is male or female?

Which is best Tunare tank? Boy or girl?

[Troxx]

General facts:

Fact: any level 60 shaman with torpor can solo any mob that is shaman soloable
Fact: Botb solo artist is/was a barbarian (this furthermore supports the above fact)

Racial facts:

Fact: barbarians level much faster, large race perks (stats/slam), and can use JBB
Fact: iksars get racial regen and ac boost
Fact: trolls get racial regen, large race perks (stats/slam) and can use JBB
Fact: ogres get FSI, large race perks (stats/slam) and can use JBB

Racial perk facts:

Fact: racial regen is present from level 1, scales up with level, and provides benefit 100% of the time you are not 100% hp.
Fact: FSI is present from level 1
Fact: Bash used to stun 100% of the time - no longer
Fact: mobs have a 50% chance to kick (not bash) and miss 50% of the time.
Fact: unslowed mobs have a 25% chance to land a bash every 8 seconds … of which only a portion of said landed bashes will result in an actual stun
Fact: FSI only stops you from being stunned by a bash, not from being interrupted fully
Fact: FSI will result in actually experiencing less interrupts

The above are facts.
They are not subjective.

What follows below is the meat of the discussion. I will add the disclaimer that despite my or anyone else’s actual opinion this falls within the realm of the subjective. Depending on what an individual person values, the actual “best” choice will differ.

It is annoying to be interrupted while casting. I fully agree with this. If I’m fully honest, I cannot think of a single instance where a bash did anything but mildly annoy me. I cannot recall a single instance where being bashed meant I died, someone around me died, or I failed to achieve the objective I had set out to do. Hasn’t happened to me. Not once, not ever. Not in 60 levels of shaman. Not on my mage, cleric, paladin, Ranger, or druid. Closest ever has been on my necro with a quadding charm break … but necros can’t be ogres and it didn’t kill or really set me back much.

A compelling argument (opinion) can be made for FSI, but it has not been nor will it be objectively proven to be “best”. The stars and planets have to align perfectly for it to ever be the deal maker/breaker … and even then … if a single frontal bash stun is what got you killed, I’d argue it’s because your gameplay is poor. You shouldn’t be (ever) in a position where a bash kills ya.

So what do you have with FSI? If the mob isnt slowed you have about a 25% chance to be bashed every 8 seconds but only a portion of those bashes will result in a stun. If a landed bash wasn’t going to stun you - no benefit. Whatever frequency it would have actually resulted in a stun, make that frequency even smaller once you have the mob slowed.

So what do you have with FSI? You have immunity from a minor annoyance that doesn’t actually decrease your chance of success at pretty irregular intervals.

Now, I’m not saying it doesn’t have value. It certainly does … but when you compare that to all the extra hp (and mana) you give up over the course of your character’s life … it does not even begin to cover the gap.

There are 59 levels before 60. There is possible time at 60 where you might not yet even have a copy of torpor. Once you do have torpor, even a barbarian will have no problems … and they don’t get either bonuses. Regen is amazing. Regrowth is still the most mana efficient heal in a shaman’s toolkit (9.5 health per mana vs 6-7.5 from torpor depending on whether you got the extra tick).

What does FSI let you accomplish that you couldn’t without? Nothing. So really we’re just talking annoyance mitigation and a tiny quality of life improvement.

Compared to innate, continuous regen that is good for any class but even more so on a caster that converts hp to mana.

A good read regarding FSI:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3429132

What is the best race?

Top priority: fashion quest (always) … any race
Fastest leveling: barbarian
“I have autism and can’t think abstractly” - ogre
Best quality of life for the life of your character: troll/iksar
Want that regen and to PL yourself with a JBB: troll

Don’t kid yourself bro. FSI doesn’t help you solo anything better. There’s nothing you can or have solo’d that any other race of shaman can’t or hasn’t also solo’d.

Weren’t you caught on video not being able to root rot 4 KC mobs?

:p

[fortior]

Ogres biggest benefit is the absurd stats you get at classic launch letting you melee super hard as a shaman, FSI is like a good to have but it’s never going to save you unless you intentionally put yourself in overly risky positions. If I had zero race bias I would go troll or barb because once you are 60 with torpor you have already won and barbarians earn dkp at the same rate as ogres and iksar

[bcbrown]

“I have autism and can’t think abstractly”

Very good post overall, well structured and I agree 100% with your conclusions.

But please don't imply autistic people can't think abstractly. That perpetuates a harmful stereotype.

[7thGate]

In
An important role Shamans have in Raids is landing slows. Shamans use https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh in melee to potentially land slows faster in critical fights. FSI increases your chance of landing a proc, because your autoattacks are not being interrupted by a random stun if you gain agro. You are also reducing the odds of your cast Slows being interrupted. Iksar/Troll Regeneration is too slow to save you from a Flurry Drake quadding you for 700, so FSI is more useful. Any Shaman who consistently gets agro from a raid mob is dying in like 30 seconds or less. Iksar/Troll Regeneration isn't going to save you.


I like this because its relatively quantifiable.

Generally, the situation would be:
1) Shaman must emergency slow flurry due to tank death
2) Shaman gets aggro after landing a cast slow (which is usually how they'll get aggro)

The shaman is dead before they cast again in this case. There's essentially 0 chance of surviving through a cast, much less the recharge time. However, FSI might let you get 1 additional swing of the shilleagh in, since there is a decent chance the Shaman will be killed in 2 combat rounds instead of 1. Very infrequently a Shaman might survive two combat rounds with a flurry, but usually they'll die on the second one.

There's about a 5% chance of proccing on swing. FSI has to actually work to make the difference of getting that swing. Looking at my logs, it looks like Flurries are bashing about once every 3 combat rounds, so maybe a 1/3 chance of bash. Flurries have about a 75% hit rate, so it has to hit you with that.

I don't have the % chance to get stunned by a bash, but if I count the first 25 bashes I have in my log file, I got stunned 5 times, so will estimate 20%.

That's a 0.25% chance, which is further reduced by:
--Does it resist? I don't know what the resist rates look like.
--Did that make a difference for the raid? If someone else slows it, it doesn't matter, but if that's the last slow attempt you just saved the raid with FSI.

Honestly, if its even a 1 in 1000 chance of saving the raid, that's kind of better than I thought it might be coming into this analysis.

[Troxx]

Very good post overall, well structured and I agree 100% with your conclusions.

But please don't imply autistic people can't think abstractly. That perpetuates a harmful stereotype.

“People with autism have problems with abstract and conceptual thinking. Some may eventually acquire abstract skills, but others never will. When abstract concepts must be used, use visual cues, such as drawings or written words, to augment the abstract idea.“

https://www.iidc.indiana.edu/irca/articles/tips-for-teaching-high-functioning-people-with-autism.html#:~:text=People%20with%20autism%20have% 20problems,to%20augment%20the%20abstract%20idea.

“Abstract thinking is generally highly correlated with problem-solving ability which is predictive of better adaptive functioning. Measures of conceptual reasoning, an ecologically-valid laboratory measure of problem-solving, and a report measure of adaptive functioning in the natural environment, were administered to children and adults with and without autism. The individuals with autism had weaker conceptual reasoning ability than individuals with typical development of similar age and cognitive ability. For the autism group, their flexible thinking scores were significantly correlated with laboratory measures of strategy formation and rule shifting and with reported overall adaptive behavior but not socialization scores. Therefore, in autism, flexibility of thought is potentially more important for adaptive functioning in the natural environment than conceptual reasoning or problem-solving.“

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6067678/

“For children on the autism spectrum, abstract thinking might pose challenges due to a tendency toward concrete thinking and difficulty with interpreting non-literal language. However, this doesn't mean they lack abstract thinking altogether. Many exhibit strengths in focused areas and may develop unique strategies to navigate abstract concepts.“

https://bighearttoys.com/blogs/autism/what-is-abstract-thinking


—————————

Yes - it was an inappropriate jab at DSM but problems with making the transition from concrete thought (neurotypical for toddlers and younger children) to abstract thought (the neurotypical transition in your older childhood to early adolescent years) is one of the hallmark struggles for those who are on spectrum. For people who have high functioning autism - it is a key area of struggle and is a defining aspect of the condition itself.

A defining feature of the condition is not what I would really call a “stereotype”

DSM get’s so lost on the weeds with his napkin math that he has historically been unable to step back and either look at the bigger picture or the same picture from a different angle.

He is the poster child for a “concrete thinker”

Objectively, after years of observing his argument structure, prose, tendency to double down, interactions with others on this forum … in trying to follow his cognitive train of thought … and last but not least obsession with whatever conclusion he has come to or opinion he holds …

I’m pretty confident he’s on spectrum (diagnosed or otherwise)

The alternative is he has an internet persona that is entirely separate from his actual *person* in real life or has always played an elaborate ruse on the community and is, in fact, a double black belt in intrawebs trolling.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

“I have autism and can’t think abstractly” - ogre

Don’t kid yourself bro. FSI doesn’t help you solo anything better. There’s nothing you can or have solo’d that any other race of shaman can’t or hasn’t also solo’d.

Weren’t you caught on video not being able to root rot 4 KC mobs?



As usual, insults and trolling are the actual reason why you post. You can tell he is just trolling becuse his next post is a long rant on why he thinks I am autistic. Providing fake medical diagnoses online is always sad to watch. He spent more time on that post I bet.


What follows below is the meat of the discussion. I will add the disclaimer that despite my or anyone else’s actual opinion this falls within the realm of the subjective. Depending on what an individual person values, the actual “best” choice will differ.


The core thrust of your post was not to present facts unfortunately. You are simply trying to undermine the idea that racials can be objectively quantified, so you do not have to use evidence to back up your opinions on Regeneration, JBB, etc. That is why what you say is largely just an opinion, because you cannot back it up with anything concrete.

You already know what the objective definition of Min/Max is, because you agree that Iksar Monks are better than Human Monks. Claiming that racial importance is subjective undermines the entire argument that Iksar Monks are better than Human Monks. You are simply changing the definition of Min/Max from class to class, when it suits your opinion.

If people want the facts on Shaman racials, they can take a look at the guide in my signature. It has a lot more evidence and detailed analysis than Troxx's post, which is again just a troll in disguise.


But please don't imply autistic people can't think abstractly. That perpetuates a harmful stereotype.

I keep telling him to stop insulting autistic people. But he seems content with attacking people who cannot defend themselves.

I like this because its relatively quantifiable.

Generally, the situation would be:
1) Shaman must emergency slow flurry due to tank death
2) Shaman gets aggro after landing a cast slow (which is usually how they'll get aggro)

The shaman is dead before they cast again in this case. There's essentially 0 chance of surviving through a cast, much less the recharge time. However, FSI might let you get 1 additional swing of the shilleagh in, since there is a decent chance the Shaman will be killed in 2 combat rounds instead of 1. Very infrequently a Shaman might survive two combat rounds with a flurry, but usually they'll die on the second one.

There's about a 5% chance of proccing on swing. FSI has to actually work to make the difference of getting that swing. Looking at my logs, it looks like Flurries are bashing about once every 3 combat rounds, so maybe a 1/3 chance of bash. Flurries have about a 75% hit rate, so it has to hit you with that.

I don't have the % chance to get stunned by a bash, but if I count the first 25 bashes I have in my log file, I got stunned 5 times, so will estimate 20%.

That's a 0.25% chance, which is further reduced by:
--Does it resist? I don't know what the resist rates look like.
--Did that make a difference for the raid? If someone else slows it, it doesn't matter, but if that's the last slow attempt you just saved the raid with FSI.

Honestly, if its even a 1 in 1000 chance of saving the raid, that's kind of better than I thought it might be coming into this analysis.

Thanks!

[Troxx]

Ever thought of proof-reading your posts before submitting?

I swear you edit most of your posts multiple times most of the time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ever thought of proof-reading your posts before submitting?

I swear you edit most of your posts multiple times most of the time.

When you can't win an argument with logic and facts, resort to more nonsense posting. One day you will realize these irrelevant posts are just wasting everybody's time.

I always find it amusing, when you lose an argument completely, you have to resort to fake medical diagnoses to try and save face. Nobody cares that you are pretending to be a doctor online.


He is the poster child for a “concrete thinker”


I always find this strange. You are the person who claims that unless they see a video of someone playing in a group, you cannot possibly provide DPS data for a class in a group. You have to see the most concrete evidence possible to believe it.

You are the one unable to use a video of solo DPS and extrapolate it into a group scenario. That is an example of abstract thinking. I wouldn't be able to do this if I was what you were describing.

You can't even make fake medical diagnoses correctly. It seems more of a projection about yourself.

[Troxx]

You are the person who claims that unless they see a video of someone playing in a group, you cannot possibly provide DPS data for a class in a group

lol what? No man, that is literally you describing you. You’re the one who refuses to trust reputable parsing programs and are obsessive about seeing and posting “video proof” or clogging up threads with “raw logs”

Is this real life?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

lol what? No man, that is literally you describing you. You’re the one who refuses to trust reputable parsing programs and are obsessive about seeing and posting “video proof” or clogging up threads with “raw logs”

Is this real life?

Are you suggesting that a basic understanding of evidence quality translates to someone being an autistic "concrete thinker"?

That is like claiming a detective who uses the murder weapon as evidence is an autistic "concrete thinker", because said detective understands that some evidence is better than others.

I am blow away by this nonsensical thought. I really hope you are just trolling right now, for your own mental sake.

[Tann]

General facts:
Fact: any level 60 shaman with torpor can solo any mob that is shaman soloable
Fact: Botb solo artist is/was a barbarian (this furthermore supports the above fact)


Same goes for necros and what they can solo, ain't nothing an iksar necro can solo that the other races can't.

Just just fax ma'am

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Same goes for necros and what they can solo, ain't nothing an iksar necro can solo that the other races can't.

Just just fax ma'am

Yet most players agree Iksar Necros are better, because people understand the standard definition of Min/Max. You wouldn't see such a wide consensus if the definition of Min/Max was "whatever I want it to be".

This is why the attempt to redefine Min/Max in this debate is nonsensical. People will just use the default Min/Max definition in another thread without realizing it.

[bcbrown]

A defining feature of the condition is not what I would really call a “stereotype”

Interesting, you've given me some food for thought. I don't want to derail this thread further, so I'll spoiler my response. If you have a further response, maybe take it to DMs?



Autism is currently defined as a highly variable neurodevelopmental disorder that is generally thought to cover a broad and deep spectrum, manifesting very differently from one person to another. The spectrum model should not be understood as a continuum running from mild to severe, but instead means that autism can present very differently in each person.

In other words, because it's a spectrum, it's not really possible for any one feature to be defining.

Certainly, a predisposition towards taking language extremely literally is common, as is a pedantic tendency to fixate on the "trees" instead of the "forest". And I bet we can both think of more than one person on this forum for whom that description is relevant.

However, that's not what I think about when I think about abstract thought.


Autistic children have the ability to see things and evens around them from a new point of view, which often shows surprising maturity. This ability, which remains throughout life, can in favorable cases lead to exceptional achievements which others may never attain. Abstraction ability, for instance, is a prerequisite for scientific endeavour. Indeed, we find numerous autistic individuals among distinguished scientists.

It seems that for success in science and art, a dash of autism is essential. For success, the necessary ingredient may be an ability to turn away from the everyday world, from the simply practical, an ability to rethink a subject with originality so as to create in new untrodden ways.


In my mind higher mathematics is the epitome of abstract reasoning, and the prevalence of autistic people in STEM fields is what led to my initial objection. As Dr. Asperger wrote about one of his patients:
Seeing that he was already fascinated by geometry at age three, she drew a triangle (a three-cornered figure), a square (a four-cornered figure), and a pentangle (a five-cornered figure) for him in the sand. He immediately drew a line and a dot, proclaiming the line a two-cornered figure and the dot a one-cornered figure.

[Snaggles]

Literally at 60 any regen race gets 3x more hps a tick. Canni IV takes 2.5 seconds to cast and converts 55% of that back to mana. It’s a class full of expensive single target buffs, debuffs, and dots. Even the pet is horribly expensive to summon.

Here is something quantified.

100hrs of being 60 at 95% health (refreshing buffs or otherwise actively doing stuff)
6,000 minutes
60,000 server ticks
480,000 hps
Or…
264,000 extra mana without sitting once


But this is a ridiculous premise because nobody here would ever play a level 60 for 100 hours. Right?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Literally at 60 any regen race gets 3x more hps a tick. Canni IV takes 2.5 seconds to cast and converts 55% of that back to mana. It’s a class full of expensive single target buffs, debuffs, and dots. Even the pet is horribly expensive to summon.

Here is something quantified.

100hrs of being 60 at 95% health (refreshing buffs or otherwise actively doing stuff)
6,000 minutes
60,000 server ticks
480,000 hps
Or…
264,000 extra mana without sitting once


But this is a ridiculous premise because nobody here would ever play a level 60 for 100 hours. Right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k - Example of raid buffing. A Troll/Iksar saves 1k HP, or 30 seconds of recovery, before getting back to 100% HP/Mana. You are not regenerating at 100% HP/Mana.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Example of Torporing. It takes 3 minutes or less to get from low HP/Mana to 100% HP/Mana. You are not regenerating at 100% HP/Mana.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU - Example of a long fight where you are never at 100% HP. A Troll/Iksar gains around 1k HP as well, since it takes 12 minutes to get the WW Dragon running. This is saving 30 seconds of recovery, before getting back to 100% HP/Mana. You are not regenerating at 100% HP/Mana.

This is the disconnect. You do not seem to understand that a Torpor Shaman no longer relies on passive regeneration for recovery. Active regeneration (Torpor) is what you are using for recovery.

Running around at 80% HP in extremely dangerous zones like West Wastes to try and utilize racial Regeneration is just asking to get killed.

Your raid is not going to appreciate that you are at 80% HP and not at full mana when they need you to spot heal a tough fight.

This is all very simple stuff if you have played a Torpor Shaman before. You are basically assuming a Torpor Shaman is playing like a non-Torpor Shaman, which doesn't make sense.

[Snaggles]

A. Free mana is free mana
B. I never said 80%. Thanks for the Strawman
C. Most raids would also dislike you trying out FSI instead of slowing stuff properly
D. I’ve had a torp shaman for years.

Fun to watch you disagree with a calculator. Mark of a truly rational mind.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A. Free mana is free mana
B. I never said 80%. Thanks for the Strawman
C. Most raids would also dislike you trying out FSI instead of slowing stuff properly
D. I’ve had a torp shaman for years.

Fun to watch you disagree with a calculator. Mark of a truly rational mind.

A. FSI also provides free mana. Not having your slow interrupted saves hundreds of HP from an unslowed mob hitting you in the face. Added bonus, you are less likely to die from not having said slow interrupted.
B. I didn't say you said 80%, it is just an example. Please stop making up nonsense when you cannot win the debate. If you are at 95% HP when running through a long zone, an Ogre will also be at 100% HP by the time you reach your destination. If you want to make use of Regen during downtime like running, you'd need a decent chunk of your HP to be missing. Remember Shamans can cast Regrowth on themselves.
C. Using https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh to slow mobs is a proper raid technique that has been around for years.
D. Sounds like you still have a lot to learn!

[fortior]

the size of your ego is only surpassed by the size of your victim complex

[DeathsSilkyMist]

the size of your ego is only surpassed by the size of your victim complex

You have no basis to suggest I have a big ego, or a victim complex.

Unlike yourself and other posters, I am not the one saying "I am right, you are wrong, and I don't have to prove it". I provide evidence to support my position, because I do not think my word alone is enough.

You can look at this thread and others like it. You'll see I am disproportionately attacked by the same people every time. I don't have a victim complex. I just state the fact that trolls and bullies are attacking me with baseless claims. There is no way you can deny this by looking back at the post history. Being unsubtle has it's consequences. The funny thing is they still lose, even in a 10 v 1.

[fortior]

you have never engaged in collaborative discussions or attempts to come up with innovations. you are a WW dragon farmer with strong opinions that you defend, to the death, treating every thread as an opportunity to 'win' by exhausting the other party. you never make or take a joke, you never come up with something new, your opinions never change or develop. you are a deeply uninteresting person to interact with, and it really sucks we have to share this forum with you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

you have never engaged in collaborative discussions or attempts to come up with innovations. you are a WW dragon farmer with strong opinions that you defend, to the death, treating every thread as an opportunity to 'win' by exhausting the other party. you never make or take a joke, you never come up with something new, your opinions never change or develop. you are a deeply uninteresting person to interact with, and it really sucks we have to share this forum with you.

Again, you have no evidence to back up these claims, yet you assert it is true. The one with the ego is yourself.

I see that you are completely ignoring troll posts like this: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670497&postcount=182

Why do you only target me, while ignoring all the bad behavior in this thread? It is clear you are targeting me specifically, and you aren't being subtle about it.

If you really cared about the health of this forum, you would be reprimanding the obvious trolls here. You are the one ruining these forums by enabling trolls via ignoring their bad behavior.

Please fix yourself and stand up to trolls before you provide silly hot take advice like this.

[Tann]

You have no basis to suggest I have a big ego, or a victim complex.

100% unwillingness to admit to being wrong I believe falls into the big ego category. I need not provide evidence, there is plenty in this thread alone and besides, you wouldn't believe it anyway :(

[DeathsSilkyMist]

100% unwillingness to admit to being wrong I believe falls into the big ego category. I need not provide evidence, there is plenty in this thread alone and besides, you wouldn't believe it anyway :(

Except I have admitted I am wrong plenty of times on these forums. Perpetuating lies about other posters is not good behavior.

You are making baseless claims and refusing to admit you are wrong about them in this very post.

It is strange that you seem to think I must admit I am wrong in every thread, otherwise you believe I never admit I am wrong. It makes no sense. If I am not wrong, why would I admit to that?

[Troxx]

I'm going out on a limb here and I will try a different angle. I am doing so in the least "troll" way possible.

Dear DSM,

I understand your point of view. This does not mean I agree with the totality of all your views, but I understand it. At the root source, you are not wrong on this. Your math shows it, but any of us who have played and know this game knows it is a true thing. Your point on this subject is VALID.

Your point:

Once you are 60 torpor is so stupidly OP that you don't need more regen ... or any regen at all. This is a TRUE statement. It is objective. You know it. I know it. We all know it. Torpor is so ludicrously OP that you could have -15hp/tick regen and it wouldn't matter much. You are still always full mana and always full health if you maintain and work to keep it up.

This is not up for debate.

A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.

There is no disagreement here.

You and I both (and we all) understand the power of Torpor: 200 mana (before specialization) heals 1200-1500hp on a class that converts hp to mana = limitless mana.

Where is the disconnect?

I feel that you personally put too much emphasis on the value of the ability to avoid being stunned on an attack that has a 25% chance to land every 8 seconds from a mob hitting you. Beyond that, if they DO land a BASH on you - it doesn't actually trigger a stun all of the time.

Your point:

The ability to avoid any bash stun is superior to innate regen.

My counter:

Bash *stuns* are actually not that common for 99.9% of game play. The marginal benefit you might get from avoiding said stun is insufficient to the global benefit of always having racial regen.

Discussion:

Truths:
-You don't need FSI to win encounters a shaman
-You don't need innate regen to win encounters as a shaman
-You can be 100% as successful with neither regen nor FSI

My perspective:

-Bashes have a 25% chance to hit every 8 seconds and most of the time the bash does not result in a *stun* for which you would get any benefit from if you had FSI.
-If slowed, this potential occurrence is less frequent

-In order for FSI to be worth any significant tradeoff a few criteria need to be met

A) the mob is hitting you and not somebody else (or rooted ... or on a pet)
B) the mob has to actually bash you (25% every 8 sec if not slowed)
C) the mob has to bash you during the exact moment you were trying to cast a spell
D) said bash has to interrupt your spell and annoy you with 1-2 secs of waiting to "try again"
E) that spell was actually important in a meaningful, game changing, or encounter-altering way
F) the timing of said bash and interrupt had to have an IMPACT on the outcome of the fight.

If all criteria are met - FSI has value at that exact moment in time.
For all other moments in time - FSI did not not change the outcome.

So yes ... I do agree that FSI has usefulness.

But!

I acknowledge that all of the above is the perfect *bad storm*

I just solo'd 29 mobs on my level 56 ranger and had one stun for the whole lot that was from a bash.

So ... a racial regen that is 100% useful anytime you are less than 100% health vs a racial thing that situationally could provide a benefit?

On a class that converts hp to mana?

For all levels 1-60 + torpor at 60?

Nah.

Yes you are right.

Yes I am right.

I am more right.

You cannot and have not proved otherwise.
You have not and will not be able to mathematically prove otherwise

*Caveat: there are 59 levels before torpor!

/thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm going out on a limb here and I will try a different angle. I am doing so in the least "troll" way possible.

Dear DSM,

I understand your point of view. This does not mean I agree with the totality of all your views, but I understand it. At the root source, you are not wrong on this. Your math shows it, but any of us who have played and know this game knows it is a true thing. Your point on this subject is VALID.

Your point:

Once you are 60 torpor is so stupidly OP that you don't need more regen ... or any regen at all. This is a TRUE statement. It is objective. You know it. I know it. We all know it. Torpor is so ludicrously OP that you could have -15hp/tick regen and it wouldn't matter much. You are still always full mana and always full health if you maintain and work to keep it up.

This is not up for debate.

A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.

There is no disagreement here.

You and I both (and we all) understand the power of Torpor: 200 mana (before specialization) heals 1200-1500hp on a class that converts hp to mana = limitless mana.

Where is the disconnect?

I feel that you personally put too much emphasis on the value of the ability to avoid being stunned on an attack that has a 25% chance to land every 8 seconds from a mob hitting you. Beyond that, if they DO land a BASH on you - it doesn't actually trigger a stun all of the time.

Your point:

The ability to avoid any bash stun is superior to innate regen.

My counter:

Bash *stuns* are actually not that common for 99.9% of game play. The marginal benefit you might get from avoiding said stun is insufficient to the global benefit of always having racial regen.

Discussion:

Truths:
-You don't need FSI to win encounters a shaman
-You don't need innate regen to win encounters as a shaman
-You can be 100% as successful with neither regen nor FSI

My perspective:

-Bashes have a 25% chance to hit every 8 seconds and most of the time the bash does not result in a *stun* for which you would get any benefit from if you had FSI.
-If slowed, this potential occurrence is less frequent

-In order for FSI to be worth any significant tradeoff a few criteria need to be met

A) the mob is hitting you and not somebody else (or rooted ... or on a pet)
B) the mob has to actually bash you (25% every 8 sec if not slowed)
C) the mob has to bash you during the exact moment you were trying to cast a spell
D) said bash has to interrupt your spell and annoy you with 1-2 secs of waiting to "try again"
E) that spell was actually important in a meaningful, game changing, or encounter-altering way
F) the timing of said bash and interrupt had to have an IMPACT on the outcome of the fight.

If all criteria are met - FSI has value at that exact moment in time.
For all other moments in time - FSI did not not change the outcome.

So yes ... I do agree that FSI has usefulness.

But!

I acknowledge that all of the above is the perfect *bad storm*

I just solo'd 29 mobs on my level 56 ranger and had one stun for the whole lot that was from a bash.

So ... a racial regen that is 100% useful anytime you are less than 100% health vs a racial thing that situationally could provide a benefit?

On a class that converts hp to mana?

For all levels 1-60 + torpor at 60?

Nah.

Yes you are right.

Yes I am right.

I am more right.

You cannot and have not proved otherwise.
You have not and will not be able to mathematically prove otherwise

*Caveat: there are 59 levels before torpor!

/thread

I appreciate that you actually wrote a post without trolling this time. It's been a long time. It is a step in the right direction! I sincerely hope the trend continues.

The core thrust of your argument seems to be FSI provides a small bonus. This is true. You agree that Iksar/Troll Regen at 60 with Torpor also provides a small bonus. This is also true.

The simple difference between FSI and Iksar/Troll Regen at level 60 with Torpor is FSI provides a significant boost to survivability when it does trigger. This is because damage spikes are the biggest threat to a Torpor Shaman, not consistent DPS that is mitigated with Torpor. I think you will agree that taking hundreds of damage from an unslowed mob is a problem.

Iksar/Troll Regeneration provides a very small boost to survivability in every fight, but the chance of 80 HP causing you to survive the first minute of a fight is basically zero.

I believe the flaw in your thinking is you posit that Iksar/Troll Regeneration is less situational, therefore it is better. This idea has never made sense to me, and I have seen it a lot in this specific debate. You have no evidence to suggest that Iksar/Troll Regeneration activating more often is providing any specific benefit.

You can math out precisely how much HP you get with Iksar/Troll Regeneration per hour, assuming you are never at 100% HP. No matter how you try to slice it, 4800 HP is 3-4 extra Torpors per hour. This is 1.5-2 minutes of saved recovery time at best. Realistically it is probably half that since Regeneration isn't active at 100% HP. A Torpor Shaman is at 100% HP out of combat, you agree with me here as well.

If you want to disprove my argument, you need to explain why 1 minute of recovery time per hour is superior to increasing your survivability significantly in a fight with FSI, which can save you a lot more than 1 minute in terms of time. Consistency isn't a guarantee of superiority.

As for your insistence on leveling speed, everybody including myself has already agreed that Regeneration allows you to level faster than FSI. Leveling speed is not the metric used in Min/Max, however, and I am specifically discussing Min/Max. If leveling speed was the default definition for Min/Max, Human Monks would be considered to be better than Iksar Monks in most discussions, because a Human Monk doesn't have the XP penalty. Same with Necromancers.

If you ask people and look at the forums, you will see most people agree that Iksar Monks/Necromancers are superior. This is regardless of the fact that Iksars level slower. There is clearly a default definition of Min/Max most people agree upon, because they use it to come to the exact same conclusion. A lot of people probably don't think about it, or have ever tried to put it into words. But the results speak for themselves. The definition of Min/Max is not tied to leveling speed. The default definition is what race has the best racial in the endgame. Iksar clearly wins in the case of Monks/Necromancers, as they still rely on passive regeneration in the endgame.

[fortior]

pearls before swine, troxx

[Troxx]

If, on character creation, a player could choose one (and only one) race specific perk. And assuming that whatever class or race you could choose ... you could choose any other race perk.

-99.9999% of characters would chose regen
-cause innate regen in classic EQ (p99) is OP

I don't think that on any class i have played i would choose FSI over regen.

Regen > FSI

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If, on character creation, a player could choose one (and only one) race specific perk. And assuming that whatever class or race you could choose ... you could choose any other race perk.

-99.9999% of characters would chose regen
-cause innate regen in classic EQ (p99) is OP

I don't think that on any class i have played i would choose FSI over regen.

Regen > FSI

Innate Regeneration is OP on most classes. No disagreement. I would only pick FSI on Shamans to be honest. I prefer Troll Shadowknights and Troll Warriors. I have a 60 Troll Shadowknight myself! I played a Troll Warrior on live. I also think Male Trolls are the best model in the game, due to their great armor graphics and superior animations. For some reason the Troll animator did a better job than the animators on the other races. It isn't like I have some strange Ogre bias. Shamwowi is the only Ogre I have ever made. If anything I have a Troll bias.

I also agree with this statement:


A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.


The logic used to compare Vindi BP and Fungi Tunic is the same logic used to compare FSI and Innate Regeneration. Vindi BP's ability to randomly reduce damage spikes is superior to Fungi Tunic's consistent Regeneration on a Torpor Shaman. This is why FSI is the best racial for Shamans in terms of Min/Maxing. FSI's ability to randomly reduce damage spikes is superior to Innate Regeneration's consistent Regeneration on a Torpor Shaman.

[Troxx]

Innate Regeneration is OP on most classes.

Glad we agree!

Regen is OP
Regen is more OP for a class that converts hp to mana
FSI is rarely a factor ever, much less to any game altering degree

Troll/iksar shaman > the rest

Yay!

Thread is over.

FSI almost as overrated as JBB!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Glad we agree!



They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp


If you agree that Vindi BP is better than Fungi Tunic on a Torpor Shaman, you agree that FSI is better than Innate Regeneration on a Torpor Shaman.

The logic used to compare Vindi BP and Fungi Tunic is the same logic used to compare FSI and Innate Regeneration. Vindi BP's ability to randomly reduce damage spikes is superior to Fungi Tunic's consistent Regeneration on a Torpor Shaman. This is why FSI is the best racial for Shamans in terms of Min/Maxing. FSI's ability to randomly reduce damage spikes is superior to Innate Regeneration's consistent Regeneration on a Torpor Shaman.


Troll/iksar shaman > the rest

FSI almost as overrated as JBB!

Incorrect.

[fortior]

If, on character creation, a player could choose one (and only one) race specific perk. And assuming that whatever class or race you could choose ... you could choose any other race perk.

-99.9999% of characters would chose regen
-cause innate regen in classic EQ (p99) is OP

I don't think that on any class i have played i would choose FSI over regen.

Regen > FSI

I would pick gnome vision on every character

#2 would be racial sneak on a class without sneak

#3 would be regen for me

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I would pick gnome vision on every character

#2 would be racial sneak on a class without sneak

#3 would be regen for me

I do agree with you on sneak, forgot about that one. Being able to vendor anywhere regardless of faction is wonderful.

[fortior]

it's not just faction, but a lot of quests work with indifferent faction as well, the big one being turning in dain's head to KT which is a huge hassle if you're not intending to be giant factioned (I'm currently on this annoying grind)

you can also use sneak together with FD for trickery and shenanigans, though shaman only gets 2 FD charges so it wouldn't be as good. it would work for a necro or SK though.

IMO gnome vision is an actual racial perk that matters and racial sneak kind of is, but it's more just a really nice convenience that you can't get another way. regen is nice on melees since it stacks with fungi (not impacted by the worn regen cap) and I guess on necros without a vp staff. everything else is whatever. on a fresh server, big races have a huge stat advantage for martial classes, like at green launch the adage was 'if it can be an ogre, pick ogre', but that was because ogres start with twice the strength of other races in an era with +3 str items.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

it's not just faction, but a lot of quests work with indifferent faction as well, the big one being turning in dain's head to KT which is a huge hassle if you're not intending to be giant factioned (I'm currently on this annoying grind)

you can also use sneak together with FD for trickery and shenanigans, though shaman only gets 2 FD charges so it wouldn't be as good. it would work for a necro or SK though.

Agreed! being able to do any quest that requires indiff or lower is awesome. And I do wish Shaman FD ring has more charges.

[Duik]

So sneak > FSI. Got it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So sneak > FSI. Got it.

Let me know when we can make Shamans with sneak.

[Duik]

Im certain i could not tell you anything.

[fortior]

There are so many choices to make and they vary wildly in importance, like take non-tunare Druids who miss out on clicky DS gloves or like a rogue who picked a race that can’t wear pd robe or a mage who picked a certain race and now either needs to shrink to coth or grow to quad kite. Shaman racials are so whatever…. it’s like worrying about what color underwear you put on in the morning. The biggest difference is that iksars can’t use jbb which really sucks

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There are so many choices to make and they vary wildly in importance, like take non-tunare Druids who miss out on clicky DS gloves or like a rogue who picked a race that can’t wear pd robe or a mage who picked a certain race and now either needs to shrink to coth or grow to quad kite. Shaman racials are so whatever…. it’s like worrying about what color underwear you put on in the morning. The biggest difference is that iksars can’t use jbb which really sucks

i agree you do not need to worry about racials. Some people like to Min/Max, so knowing whIch racial is objectively the best for a given class is useful information. I just want to make sure all players have the correct information, so they can have the most fun when playing the game.

[Duik]

Quote By Duplicates Systematically & Mechanically
i agree you do not need to worry about racials. Some people like to Min/Max, so knowing whIch racial is objectively the best for a given class is useful information. I just want to make sure all players have the correct information, so they can have the most fun when playing the game.

Poly want a fucking cracker or what?

Also, i will never pull up another poster while they force you to post again (by simply posting ANYTHING on any subject). It is waaay to funny/sad.

[Jimjam]

Let me know when we can make Shamans with sneak.

Luclin

[Toxigen]

Plenty of instances for average P99 player where Regen will make a difference. Any group where you're lacking C / bard... mana is at a premium = more cannis thanks to regen.

I'd take that experience any day. Those will be fully tangible benefits.

[Penish]

i agree you do not need to worry about racials. Some people like to Min/Max, so knowing whIch racial is objectively the best for a given class is useful information. I just want to make sure all players have the correct information, so they can have the most fun when playing the game.

lol'd

[Toxigen]

pretty sure we're all getting trolled by DSM GPT

[DeathsSilkyMist]

pretty sure we're all getting trolled by DSM GPT

This thread was trolled by TroxxMD.com. Whenever you ask, it always comes back with "autism".

[Troxx]

lol

For those late to the party:

Regen > FSI

[DeathsSilkyMist]

lol

For those late to the party:

Regen > FSI

Troxx has already admitted that FSI is the Min/Max option, as he agrees Vindi BP is better than Fungi Tunic with Torpor. The same logic is used to compare FSI and Iksar/Troll Regen with Torpor. The random chance of reducing damage spikes is superior to the passive regeneration options available on a Torpor Shaman.

Thanks for agreeing!

[Troxx]

General facts:

Fact: any level 60 shaman with torpor can solo any mob that is shaman soloable
Fact: Botb solo artist is/was a barbarian (this furthermore supports the above fact)

Racial facts:

Fact: barbarians level much faster, large race perks (stats/slam), and can use JBB
Fact: iksars get racial regen and ac boost
Fact: trolls get racial regen, large race perks (stats/slam) and can use JBB
Fact: ogres get FSI, large race perks (stats/slam) and can use JBB

Racial perk facts:

Fact: racial regen is present from level 1, scales up with level, and provides benefit 100% of the time you are not 100% hp.
Fact: FSI is present from level 1
Fact: Bash used to stun 100% of the time - no longer
Fact: mobs have a 50% chance to kick (not bash) and miss 50% of the time.
Fact: unslowed mobs have a 25% chance to land a bash every 8 seconds … of which only a portion of said landed bashes will result in an actual stun
Fact: FSI only stops you from being stunned by a bash, not from being interrupted fully
Fact: FSI will result in actually experiencing less interrupts

The above are facts.
They are not subjective.

What follows below is the meat of the discussion. I will add the disclaimer that despite my or anyone else’s actual opinion this falls within the realm of the subjective. Depending on what an individual person values, the actual “best” choice will differ.

It is annoying to be interrupted while casting. I fully agree with this. If I’m fully honest, I cannot think of a single instance where a bash did anything but mildly annoy me. I cannot recall a single instance where being bashed meant I died, someone around me died, or I failed to achieve the objective I had set out to do. Hasn’t happened to me. Not once, not ever. Not in 60 levels of shaman. Not on my mage, cleric, paladin, Ranger, or druid. Closest ever has been on my necro with a quadding charm break … but necros can’t be ogres and it didn’t kill or really set me back much.

A compelling argument (opinion) can be made for FSI, but it has not been nor will it be objectively proven to be “best”. The stars and planets have to align perfectly for it to ever be the deal maker/breaker … and even then … if a single frontal bash stun is what got you killed, I’d argue it’s because your gameplay is poor. You shouldn’t be (ever) in a position where a bash kills ya.

So what do you have with FSI? If the mob isnt slowed you have about a 25% chance to be bashed every 8 seconds but only a portion of those bashes will result in a stun. If a landed bash wasn’t going to stun you - no benefit. Whatever frequency it would have actually resulted in a stun, make that frequency even smaller once you have the mob slowed.

So what do you have with FSI? You have immunity from a minor annoyance that doesn’t actually decrease your chance of success at pretty irregular intervals.

Now, I’m not saying it doesn’t have value. It certainly does … but when you compare that to all the extra hp (and mana) you give up over the course of your character’s life … it does not even begin to cover the gap.

There are 59 levels before 60. There is possible time at 60 where you might not yet even have a copy of torpor. Once you do have torpor, even a barbarian will have no problems … and they don’t get either bonuses. Regen is amazing. Regrowth is still the most mana efficient heal in a shaman’s toolkit (9.5 health per mana vs 6-7.5 from torpor depending on whether you got the extra tick).

What does FSI let you accomplish that you couldn’t without? Nothing. So really we’re just talking annoyance mitigation and a tiny quality of life improvement.

Compared to innate, continuous regen that is good for any class but even more so on a caster that converts hp to mana.

A good read regarding FSI:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3429132

What is the best race?

Top priority: fashion quest (always) … any race
Fastest leveling: barbarian
“I have autism and can’t think abstractly” - ogre
Best quality of life for the life of your character: troll/iksar
Want that regen and to PL yourself with a JBB: troll

Don’t kid yourself bro. FSI doesn’t help you solo anything better. There’s nothing you can or have solo’d that any other race of shaman can’t or hasn’t also solo’d.

Weren’t you caught on video not being able to root rot 4 KC mobs?

:p



I'm going out on a limb here and I will try a different angle. I am doing so in the least "troll" way possible.

Dear DSM,

I understand your point of view. This does not mean I agree with the totality of all your views, but I understand it. At the root source, you are not wrong on this. Your math shows it, but any of us who have played and know this game knows it is a true thing. Your point on this subject is VALID.

Your point:

Once you are 60 torpor is so stupidly OP that you don't need more regen ... or any regen at all. This is a TRUE statement. It is objective. You know it. I know it. We all know it. Torpor is so ludicrously OP that you could have -15hp/tick regen and it wouldn't matter much. You are still always full mana and always full health if you maintain and work to keep it up.

This is not up for debate.

A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.

There is no disagreement here.

You and I both (and we all) understand the power of Torpor: 200 mana (before specialization) heals 1200-1500hp on a class that converts hp to mana = limitless mana.

Where is the disconnect?

I feel that you personally put too much emphasis on the value of the ability to avoid being stunned on an attack that has a 25% chance to land every 8 seconds from a mob hitting you. Beyond that, if they DO land a BASH on you - it doesn't actually trigger a stun all of the time.

Your point:

The ability to avoid any bash stun is superior to innate regen.

My counter:

Bash *stuns* are actually not that common for 99.9% of game play. The marginal benefit you might get from avoiding said stun is insufficient to the global benefit of always having racial regen.

Discussion:

Truths:
-You don't need FSI to win encounters a shaman
-You don't need innate regen to win encounters as a shaman
-You can be 100% as successful with neither regen nor FSI

My perspective:

-Bashes have a 25% chance to hit every 8 seconds and most of the time the bash does not result in a *stun* for which you would get any benefit from if you had FSI.
-If slowed, this potential occurrence is less frequent

-In order for FSI to be worth any significant tradeoff a few criteria need to be met

A) the mob is hitting you and not somebody else (or rooted ... or on a pet)
B) the mob has to actually bash you (25% every 8 sec if not slowed)
C) the mob has to bash you during the exact moment you were trying to cast a spell
D) said bash has to interrupt your spell and annoy you with 1-2 secs of waiting to "try again"
E) that spell was actually important in a meaningful, game changing, or encounter-altering way
F) the timing of said bash and interrupt had to have an IMPACT on the outcome of the fight.

If all criteria are met - FSI has value at that exact moment in time.
For all other moments in time - FSI did not not change the outcome.

So yes ... I do agree that FSI has usefulness.

But!

I acknowledge that all of the above is the perfect *bad storm*

I just solo'd 29 mobs on my level 56 ranger and had one stun for the whole lot that was from a bash.

So ... a racial regen that is 100% useful anytime you are less than 100% health vs a racial thing that situationally could provide a benefit?

On a class that converts hp to mana?

For all levels 1-60 + torpor at 60?

Nah.

Yes you are right.

Yes I am right.

I am more right.

You cannot and have not proved otherwise.
You have not and will not be able to mathematically prove otherwise

*Caveat: there are 59 levels before torpor!

/thread


Quote me in full or not at all.

How desperate does a bloke have to be to put words in someone else’s mouth just to convince themselves they are right?

Read the post in its entirety.

Now read it again.

If that’s still what you took away from that post …

My presumptive diagnosis rings even more true.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Quote me in full or not at all.

How desperate does a bloke have to be to put words in someone else’s mouth just to convince themselves they are right?

Read the post in its entirety.

Now read it again.

If that’s still what you took away from that post …

My presumptive diagnosis rings even more true.

I am not putting words in your mouth. If you agree that Vindi BP is better than Fungi Tunic, you understand why FSI is better than Iksar/Troll Regeneration and agree with it.

The only desperation I see here is you trying to tie yourself into knots in an attempt to be correct. If you admit FSI is the Min/Max option (which you agree with), then you would admit being wrong at the same time.

Your entire argument against FSI is: "FSI doesn't trigger often". The same argument is true for Vindi BP. You can't really prove how often Vindi BP is actually helping you. But people who have played this game for a while understand that defensive stats are helpful, and reduce damage enough to be more helpful than a regeneration bonus when you have Torpor. This is why you don't see raid Tanks using Fungi Tunics, for example.

You have no logical reason that explains why you state Vindi BP is better than Fungi BP, but then state Iksar/Troll Regeneration is better than FSI. We are discussing Min/Max here, not leveling.

[Troxx]

Did I say vindi bp was better ]than fungi? That’s not what I said at all. In the context of the power of torpor, my statement was literally:

“They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are”

Is not having regrowth better than having it up? No
Are barbarians the strongest shaman race? No
After torpor do you NEED to keep that fungi? No - you could swap it for a Vindi

Did I say Vindi was better than fungi? … no I actually did not

Once again you failed to see the forest instead of the isolated tree.

Concrete thinker much?

Re-read the whole posts. The discussion. The meat and potatoes …

C’mon man, rub them brain cells together.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did I say Vindi was better than fungi?


They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp

Yes, you did. I am not sure why you think this would mean otherwise. Chances are a Shaman would have a Fungi Tunic before a Vindi BP. So why would they "drop it for vindi bp" in the first place?


C’mon man, rub them brain cells together.

Indeed. Please do. I am not sure why you are trying to claim Vindi BP isn't better than Fungi Tunic, but you can "drop it for vindi bp". If Regeneration is always better, why would you "drop it for vindi bp" at all? Nobody is claiming you stated this out of the context of Torpor either. It was clear you are talking about a Shaman with Torpor. That is Min/Max, which is what we are discussing.


Concrete thinker much?


TroxxMD.com at work again. Everything is "autism" when someone disagrees with Troxx.

[Troxx]

/facepalm

[DeathsSilkyMist]

/facepalm

If you want to claim that you simply typed this sentence poorly:


They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp


I will certainly give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's clear this up.

Please explain why you can swap Fungi Tunic for Vindi BP once you have Torpor, but at the same time Vindi BP is not as good as Fungi Tunic, which a Shaman will probably have before Vindi BP?

As far as I can tell, you are at the point where you have to play semantic word games in an attempt to try and be correct. It's ok to admit you are wrong.

[Troxx]

My point was simple: torpor is so overpowered that the class has limitless flexibility. It’s why barbarian shamans - who have neither racial perk - find so much success.

It had nothing to do with a relative value of FSI vs innate continuous regeneration levels 1-59 and even at 60 with torpor.

I went out on a limb to talk to you like an adult. To tell you that your argument is not without merit. To communicate to you that I do actually understand the point you are making.

And what did you do?

Troxx has already admitted that FSI is the Min/Max option, as he agrees Vindi BP is better than Fungi Tunic with Torpor. The same logic is used to compare FSI and Iksar/Troll Regen with Torpor. The random chance of reducing damage spikes is superior to the passive regeneration options available on a Torpor Shaman.

Thanks for agreeing!

About the most childish way of proceeding with the discussion. You picked a single tee out of the forest with blatant disregard to the point that was actually being made. You put words in my mouth.

I’ll be honest, I didn’t expect better from you. You met my expectations. The predictability of your response would be funny if it weren’t so sad. You just continue to prove my suspicions about you to likely be correct.

You do you man.

Everyone else can see it for what it is.

[bcbrown]

You tried Troxx. I respect the effort.

[Troxx]

You tried Troxx. I respect the effort.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/H3BoxrpcT4fPynU424/giphy.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You tried Troxx. I respect the effort.

You haven't been reading the thread it seems. I've countered his points, and he has exposed his trolling nature multiple times. He cannot help himself.

My point was simple: torpor is so overpowered that the class has limitless flexibility. It’s why barbarian shamans - who have neither racial perk - find so much success.

It had nothing to do with a relative value of FSI vs innate continuous regeneration levels 1-59 and even at 60 with torpor.

I went out on a limb to talk to you like an adult. To tell you that your argument is not without merit. To communicate to you that I do actually understand the point you are making.

And what did you do?

About the most childish way of proceeding with the discussion. You picked a single tee out of the forest with blatant disregard to the point that was actually being made. You put words in my mouth.

I’ll be honest, I didn’t expect better from you. You met my expectations. The predictability of your response would be funny if it weren’t so sad. You just continue to prove my suspicions about you to likely be correct.

You do you man.

Everyone else can see it for what it is.

You claim I am being childish, but you forget these posts that you made earlier:

https://media.tenor.com/CZfwxqCNgpUAAAAM/jim-halpert-dwight-schrute.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ef/2c/13/ef2c133e8c8d257ca8e0d91652d5c491.gif

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/59/f6/44/59f644a611f8e5d4016253d5b713ae95.gif

https://gifdb.com/images/thumbnail/rofl-294-x-310-gif-wkia2w1d14z59lio.gif

This is your normal behavior. You troll, you insult, you act like a child, and you get backed into a corner because you cannot admit you were wrong. Then you try to post a wall of nonsense to try and save face.

Thanks for admitting you are wrong. You still cannot explain why a Shaman would use Vindi BP in the first place if it isn't better than Fungi Tunic. It is commonly accepted that Vindi BP is BiS for Shamans, so this isn't a tough question. But you have realized that once you explain it, you will show that you don't have a basis for your claims about Regen.

[Troxx]

In a rapidly changing world characterized by so much uncertainty …

I suppose we can take comfort in some things always being predictable.

DSM will always be DSM and threads that bear his namesake will always be entertaining.

We call these “DSM threads” for a reason

https://www.gifcen.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/shrug-gif-7.gif

[bcbrown]

https://www.gifcen.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/shrug-gif-7.gif

Wow he looks strange with a beard.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In a rapidly changing world characterized by so much uncertainty …

I suppose we can take comfort in some things always being predictable.

DSM will always be DSM and threads that bear his namesake will always be entertaining.

We call these “DSM threads” for a reason


This poor attempt at lying is just so sad. Unfortunately for you, someone calls all of the threads that are being objectively trolled by multiple posters (including yourself) "DSM Threads". The common denominator among these threads is posters like yourself clearly trolling with silly gifs, calling people autistic, etc. You won't find a "DSM Thread" that you are not a part of. All of these "DSM Threads" have clear trolling behavior from yourself as well.

Please keep making yourself look worse.

Readers of the thread will note that Troxx still cannot answer a basic question:

"Why would a Shaman use Vindi BP at all if Fungi Tunic is better than Vindi BP"?

[bcbrown]

The common denominator among these threads is posters like yourself clearly trolling with silly gifs, calling people autistic, etc.

The common denominator is DSM having more posts than the next 3-4 people combined. That's what makes it a DSM Thread.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The common denominator is DSM having more posts than the next 3-4 people combined. That's what makes it a DSM Thread.

You seem to forget that multiple posters reply to me. Me responding to multiple people simultaneously is the only reason why I have more posts. If you add up the people replying to me, I have less total posts.

This is just another silly attempt at discrediting people, because that is the only way you can win an argument. It is very sad that people have to resort to such silly tactics because they cannot admit they may be incorrect.

The only common denominator with "DSM Threads" is the same exact troll posters responding with the same troll tactics. Unfortunately you cannot hide the post history, and plenty of examples are now available.

[Troxx]

The common denominator is DSM having more posts than the next 3-4 people combined. That's what makes it a DSM Thread.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3oFzmpzTfyABIX6JBm/200w.gif?cid=6c09b9529rehvpnuja9vgvdw52t61fvqs18id 8gz8kwkmqkf&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

(Amongst other things)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

(Amongst other things)

Thank you for continuing to show you are just a troll. Sadly you couldn't actually stop being a troll for more than one post. It's very easy to see the vast majority of your posts in this thread are silly gifs, nonsense, and a sad post that is a fake medical diagnosis about me. Claiming everybody who disagrees with you is autistic is a poor tactic.

Readers of the thread will note that Troxx still cannot answer a basic question:

"Why would a Shaman use Vindi BP at all if Fungi Tunic is better than Vindi BP"?

This is because Troxx understands that once he explains it, he will support my conclusions. There is a reason why people generally agree that Vindi BP is BiS, and not Fungi Tunic.

FSI is the Min/Max option for Shamans. Regeneration is better while leveling, but Min/Max does not take leveling into account. There is nothing wrong with picking a Shaman race other than Ogre. You'll do fine regardless.

[Troxx]

Fungi vs Vindi bp at 60 after torpor has no bearing on FSI vs racial regen at levels 1-59 or at 60 with torpor.

FSI is not a Vindi BP.

No false equivalency arguments please.

Vindi BP has palpable potential benefits that are clearly defined. It gives a clearly defined boost to ac, hp, stats, and resists. Globally? A strong case can be made that 13 more regen (the fungi) is better than the stats resist. After torpor a case could be made that Vindi bp is globally better. Both stances have merit but most shamans I know simply sold their fungi to buy other things or passed it down to alts after they got torpor.

For me? When I got torpor I gave my fungi to my alt and am using a thurg chain bp. Not that thurg is better but my monk wanted a fungi and I’m poor.

I made that tradeoff and I was fine after it. I WOULD NOT trade racial regen for FSI.

But a Vindi BP is not FSI.

Sorry man, you gotta make the case that a 25% chance to be bashed every 8 seconds on an unslowed mob (far less frequent otherwise) … and with the acknowledgements that most of those bashes won’t result in a stun …

You have to make the argument that THAT benefit (rare though it is) outweighs permanent racial regen over the entire course of your characters life.

So far you just have not done that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

After torpor a case could be made that Vindi bp is globally better. Both stances have merit but most shamans I know simply sold their fungi to buy other things or passed it down to alts after they got torpor.


Exactly. Thank you for agreeing that Vindi BP can be globally better. Thank you for agreeing that you've seen the pattern of Torpor Shamans picking Vindi BP over Fungi Tunic. If most people agreed that passive regeneration was better at level 60 with Torpor, you wouldn't see this trend.

The logic used to explain why Vindi BP is better is the same logic used to explain why FSI is better:

"The random chance to reduce a damage spike is superior to consistent minor passive regeneration on a Torpor Shaman".

There is no false equivalency between Vindi BP and FSI. If passive Regeneration provided more benefit than a random chance to reduce a damage spike, Torpor Shamans would be keeping their Fungi Tunics. Remember that Torpor Shamans are willing to give up 13 passive regeneration to get a random chance at reducing a damage spike through Vindi BP. It's not a stretch to say that they would give up 8 passive regeneration for the same thing through FSI. There is no real way to determine how much Vindi BP is actually helping over Fungi Tunic, but people seem to reach the same consensus that Vindi BP is better.

Thank you for answering the question. As you can see, the trolling wasn't necessary.

[Troxx]

Sorry man, you gotta make the case that a 25% chance to be bashed every 8 seconds on an unslowed mob (far less frequent otherwise) … and with the acknowledgements that most of those bashes won’t result in a stun …

You have to make the argument that THAT benefit (rare though it is) outweighs permanent racial regen over the entire course of your characters life.

So far you just have not done that.

[Naethyn]

Vindi bp is nice because you can give your fungi to another alt.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx, simply claiming I haven't proven my case isn't an argument. Thus far I have shown plenty of evidence to support my position, and you agree with what I have said.

Vindi bp is nice because you can give your fungi to another alt.

You wouldn't give Fungi to an alt if you needed it on your main.

[Troxx]

You wouldn't give Fungi to an alt if you needed it on your main.

I did. And I didn’t even have a Vindi BP to replace it with.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I did. And I didn’t even have a Vindi BP to replace it with.

Exactly. You understand that you don't need the regeneration.

You lost 15 HP regen per tick and gained some mitigation.

With FSI you lose 8 HP regen per tick and gained some mitigation.

It's really that simple. That is why FSI is the best Min/Max option for Shamans. Many people, including yourself, choose mitigation over regen once you have Torpor. You did so when you didn't even have the optimal replacement.

[Toxigen]

some mitigation != some mitigation

[Troxx]

You lost 15 HP regen per tick and gained some mitigation.

My shaman lost his fungi and my monk gained a fungi. My warrior later gained that same fungi. My paladin later gained that same fungi. Fungi is so much better than thug bp on a shaman it’s not even funny.

Point is I had a fungi. My shaman got torpor and for once I could comfortably function without it.

You’re still missing the point lol.

With FSI you lose 8 HP regen per tick and gained some mitigation

No. Read that other thread. FSI only stop the stun component from a bash that lands. Most bashes do not stun. While stunned you still can dodge, parry, block and fire other defensive abilities.

FSI does NOT give you mitigation. It only stops a fairly rare chance that a bash will stun you. For shamans this is only relevant if it interrupted an important spell cast at a moment of time it was important not to be interrupted.

The tradeoff at 60 for this benefit is 8hp/tick standing and 11hp/tick sitting permanent regeneration. The tradeoff before level 60 is literally double (or more depending on level) your baseline racial regen. That’s a whole lot of extra health (mana) over the course of getting to 60. At 60, it still translates to better survivability and mana recovery than FSI ever will.

Quit with the false equivalency argument. Being able to function without a fungi after you have torpor does not mean that FSI is better than innate regeneration- it is an entirely separate discussion.

Remember … I already was able to function without FSI for 60 levels on that shaman. Weirdly, I’ve managed to function just fine on 7 other non-shaman spell casting classes to 6 without FSI.

So far you have made one point:

1) a torpor shaman can function without racial regen

What you have not proven or honestly even made a strong case for (as bcbrown has pointed out) is that the immunity from the fairly uncommon and random brief stun actually has significant value.

Remember his posts? I do. His posts started on page 6 and really came to a head here:

I think your argument supporting your opinion is fairly convincing. It is not a proof.

As you are unwilling to provide a proof, allow me to attempt to summarize your argument:

Trolls/Iksars get +8 standing Regen over other races. 8 x 10 x 60 = 4800 HP per hour. That's the equivalent of 3-4 Torpors per hour. 3-4 Torpors per hour is not really significant on a Torpor Shaman. FSI increases your chance of survival before the initial slow on any difficult fight, which can actually be the difference between success and failure. Increasing your survivability during the first minute of a fight (before a mob is slowed) will be better than a small boost to your Mana/HP regeneration on a class that can already fully recover in 3 minutes or less.

Your argument is that the increased survivability of no stuns before a slow during a solo fight is a subjectively better than the (quantifiable) benefit of 4800 HP/hour.

Show me the proof or stop claiming it's provable.

You haven’t actually proven anything.

From practical experience I can honestly say I have never encountered a situation on my shaman or any of my other level 60 caster classes where a bash stun made a difference.

On my bard aoe kiting? Yeah sure. But bards can’t be ogres and when you’re aoe kiting they aren’t hitting you from the front if you mess up.