Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[Troxx]

So yeah Ogre is not the min/max choice.

Choosing Ogre is a conscious choice. You chose bash stun immunity over continuous regeneration. There is value there, to be sure, but there was also substantial loss involved. Can you function without the regen? Of course. You have and many others have. Many others have done great without either benefit. The shaman class is that strong.

But make no mistake, the actual Min/max for a class that trades hp for mana between the options available is racial regen.

So yeah the min/max will be either troll or iksar. Since trolls get fatty large race stats and can use that JBB you’re so in love with … troll seems to be the winner.

My troll shaman can snare mobs.

Can yours?

Assuming both shamans are standing for a full hour it costs the ogre 800 mana, 32 seconds of torpor time and all that time canning the extra mana back and casting another torpor to compensate for the regen given up. While face tanking mobs, you are passively recovering less hp and your survivability is lower.

All for the tradeoff of avoiding the rare chance a bash might stun you for 1-2 seconds.

Over the weekend on my last solo session I face tanked nearly 30 dark blue mobs on my Ranger. During those fights I got bashed a lot. None of those bashes triggered a stun. It happens, but it is not common.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I WOULD NOT trade racial regen for FSI.


I did [give my fungi to an alt once I got Torpor]. And I didn’t even have a Vindi BP to replace it with.

Troxx would gladly lose 15 HP regen to gain the random chance to reduce damage spikes. But Troxx would never lose 8 HP regen to gain the random chance to reduce damage spikes.

Troxx can write all the paragraphs he wants, but he can't keep these two positions simultaneously.

FSI is the Min/Max option, as it gives you the random chance to reduce damage spikes, which is more important than some passive regeneration once you have Torpor.

Troxx understands this, as he gave away his Fungi even before he had Vindi BP. He simply cannot admit he is wrong, and therefore is twisting himself into knots to avoid it.

[Troxx]

Troxx would gladly lose 15 HP regen to gain the random chance to reduce damage spikes. But Troxx would never lose 8 HP regen to gain the random chance to reduce damage

Troxx gladly gave his fungi to his monk twink alt. He had a thurg bp in his bad for free clicky stamina so just decided to use that instead. Troxx did not throw his fungi in the garbage for a crappy (and undeniably worse) quest bp.

Again: FSI doesn’t reduce damage intake. I spelled out precisely what it does and does not do.

Do you even read?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troxx gladly gave his fungi to his monk twink alt. He had a thurg bp in his bad for free clicky stamina so just decided to use that instead. Troxx did not throw his fungi in the garbage for a crappy (and undeniably worse) quest bp.

Again: FSI doesn’t reduce damage intake. I spelled out precisely what it does and does not do.

Do you even read?

I do read. You lost 15 HP Regen on your Shaman willingly because you didn't need it. Thurg BP has better defensive stats over Fungi.

FSI does reduce the damage you take because not getting interrupted while casting slow saves you hundreds of HP worth of damage from an unslowed mob. Much more than passive regen in the same time.

[Troxx]

FSI does reduce the damage you take because not getting interrupted while casting slow saves you hundreds of HP worth of damage from an unslowed mob. Much more than passive regen in the same time.

Funny how I’ve never experienced this. I’ve solo’d plenty of cliff golems, WW dragons and the like. I’ve small manned VP guardian wurms and had plenty of resisted slows. I have not experienced situations where I’m getting bash stunned and breaking my “flow” as it were.

Perhaps the biggest flaw in your reasoning is that you’ve never played a high level shaman that doesn’t have FSI? Perhaps you go “aha I am teh bestest race” every time you see a bash thinking you were gonna be stunned? When realistically you weren’t going to be stunned at all by those bashes? Remember that FSI does not make you immune to being interrupted- it only stops that chance of an actual stun.

Stuns happen, but most bashes do not stun. When they do stun, it’s pretty damn brief

If every landed bash always resulted in a stun (it doesn’t) the case for FSI vs regen might actually be worth having.

The stars and planets have to align for it to have a meaningful impact. However often that is … I’ve never once (not once) experienced it on my xp capped shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Funny how I’ve never experienced this. I’ve solo’d plenty of cliff golems, WW dragons and the like. I’ve small manned VP guardian wurms and had plenty of resisted slows. I have not experienced situations where I’m getting bash stunned and breaking my “flow” as it were.

Perhaps the biggest flaw in your reasoning is that you’ve never played a high level shaman that doesn’t have FSI? Perhaps you go “aha I am teh bestest race” every time you see a bash thinking you were gonna be stunned? When realistically you weren’t going to be stunned at all by those bashes? Remember that FSI does not make you immune to being interrupted- it only stops that chance of an actual stun.

Stuns happen, but most bashes do not stun. When they do stun, it’s pretty damn brief

If every landed bash always resulted in a stun (it doesn’t) the case for FSI vs regen might actually be worth having.

The stars and planets have to align for it to have a meaningful impact. However often that is … I’ve never once (not once) experienced it on my xp capped shaman.

No. I simply understand basic logic, math, and player patterns.

There is no evidence that exists as far as I know to show exactly how often Vindi BP reduces damage spikes over Fungi Tunic. Yet you agree Vindi BP can be considered BiS, and you agree many Shamans (including yourself) stop using Fungi Tunic at 60.

This is because Torpor Shamans want to reduce damage spikes more than they want small boosts to passive regeneration. That is why FSI becomes the Min/Max option once you have Torpor. Shamans pick Vindi BP to reduce damage spikes over 13 HP regen. Shamans pick FSI to reduce damage spikes over 8 HP regen.

You claim that you haven't ever experienced a stun interrupting your slow, therefore you assume it doesn't happen. All of my characters other than my Shaman are non-Ogre. I have experienced STUNS from bashes interrupting important spells plenty of times.

I understand FSI does not make you immune to interrupts. However, stuns are a guaranteed interrupt. Avoiding a guaranteed interrupt means you still have a chance to land the spell.

[Toxigen]

wanna know what isnt a small % chance to happen?

regen anytime below 100% hp

bigly.

[Naethyn]

The iksar shaman quests are probably my favorite quests in the game.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

wanna know what isnt a small % chance to happen?

regen anytime below 100% hp

bigly.

Consistency != Superiority. It is still trivial to math out how much HP you get per hour on a standing Troll/Iksar level 60 Shaman assuming you are never at 100% HP. 4800 HP per hour is 3-4 Torpors per hour, which is saving you 1.5-2 minutes of recovery at best on a class that can recover faster than just about any other class. Realistically the time saved on recovery is lower, as a Torpor Shaman is at 100% HP/Mana out of combat. There is no other way to slice it. Talking about consistency doesn't really matter.

[Troxx]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7n6oFDW0AER15B.jpg

But … but … muh napkin maff

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But … but … muh napkin maff

As you can see, Troxx cannot rebut, and has gone back to trolling.

Troxx thinks "I never saw a stun interrupt a spell" is solid evidence, and thinks that basic math like calculating the factual amount of HP regeneration you get per hour is nonsense. Regardless of how much Troxx trolls this thread, a 60 Troll/Iksar Shaman is still getting 4800 HP per hour while standing via racial regeneration, assuming they are never at 100% HP. This is still 3-4 Torpor's worth of HP, which is still 1.5-2 minutes of recovery at best. A Torpor Shaman played properly is at 100% HP/Mana when out of combat, so the 4800 HP recovered per hour is generally lower when actually playing.

[Troxx]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTb6QThhKG_2SaWYApnxppluaixbk63T 6RU7w&usqp=CAU

[Toxigen]

hey guys D4 S3 releases today

[DeathsSilkyMist]

hey guys D4 S3 releases today

I'm more excited for the new D2R ladder actually. Get them high runes!

[Troxx]

I’ve got no clue what either of you are talking about :p

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’ve got no clue what either of you are talking about :p

Diablo 4 Season 3 (Toxigen) and Diablo 2 Resurrected ladder (myself). Diablo 4 and 2 have rotating seasons (called ladder in Diablo 2), where you play for x months and then your characters get dumped into a non-season bucket so you can still play them. Then you start all over when the new season/ladder comes out. It's very similar in concept to merging Green and Blue together (non-season) and then creating a new season where everyone starts over (Green 2.0).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

With regards to Troxx's specific point on stun rate. I'll use my Monk's logs from levels 12-52 to get some hard data to back up the rates. He almost exclusively fought unslowed warrior mobs via face tanking in twinked gear.

I was kicked or bashed a total of 21044 times, regardless of a hit or miss. Mobs attempted to kick me 6718 times, the rest were bashes. This means there is roughly a 70% chance to be bashed, and a 30% chance to be kicked.

6157 bashes hit me, and I got 1661 "You are Stunned!" messages. This means there is a 25% chance to be stunned from a successful bash.

These numbers support what someone like https://wiki.project1999.com/Sakuragi%27s_Warrior_Guide says with regards to the bash rates using "napkin math". He also says there is a 75% chance to be bashed instead of kicked, and a 25% chance to be stunned (50% hit rate and 50% stun rate). This shows that if you have the correct formula, you can indeed get the averages, and real data backs this up. Claiming "napkin math" has no relevance is clearly false.

1661/21044 = ~7.9% chance to be stunned per kick/bash attempt on my Monk. 1613 missed bashes were blocks specifically and 257 were ripostes, so that means the chance to be stunned on a Shaman is a bit higher. Roughly half of all attempts were not hits, so we can just divide 1870 by 2 for simplicity's sake. 1661 / 20,109 = ~8.25% chance to be stunned per kick/bash attempt on a Shaman. Realistically it is probably closer to 8.5% since Monks have better dodge skill than Shamans.

An 8.5% chance to avoid being stunned in the first minute of a fight when the mob is unslowed is pretty good. That means 1 in every 12 tough fights you are preventing a guaranteed interrupt from occurring when you are applying your first slow. A Shaman who gets their first slow interrupted is taking hundreds of extra damage from an unslowed mob. Conversely, Iksar/Troll Regeneration is giving you 80 HP in the first minute of a fight, which has a much lower percent chance to save you if things go south. That is 1/3rd of a single max hit from a WW Dragon.

This is why FSI is the Min/Max option for Shamans at level 60 with Torpor. An 8.5% chance to avoid a guaranteed slow interrupt in the first minute of a fight is going to increase the odds of your survival more than the 80 HP you get via Troll/Iksar Regen in the first minute of a fight. It is the same reason why Vindi BP is BiS, and people give their Fungi Tunics to alts once they get Torpor.

[Jimjam]

How did you control for sources of stun beside frontal bashes?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

How did you control for sources of stun beside frontal bashes?

With the logs from my Monk? Easy, I never fought cleric mobs with him, or mobs that have a spell that stun. My logs back this up. That is why I said this at the beginning of my previous post:

He almost exclusively fought unslowed warrior mobs via face tanking in twinked gear.

The mobs that were not warriors were shamans. I leveled on Crystal Cavern orcs in the low 30s, which included killing the oracles.

[Jimjam]

What about rear strikes?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What about rear strikes?

Minimal. If I needed to end a fight, I would FD instead of turn and run. Also not relevant. The chance to stun is the same regardless, and a properly played Ogre Shaman would not willingly put their backs to a mob while slowing.

[bcbrown]

With regards to Troxx's specific point on stun rate. I'll use my Monk's logs from levels 12-52 to get some hard data to back up the rates. He almost exclusively fought unslowed warrior mobs via face tanking in twinked gear.

It's super helpful when you provide concrete numbers backed up by logs like this. Can you provide a youtube video of your shaman where FSI is applicable? Ideally one where at least one slow is resisted. If it's one where you could also post the log in a text file, that would be best, but just the video would be helpful.

I don't want to do further analysis on a random video on your channel, as you may have reasons to call that fight atypical in some way, which is why I'm asking you to nominate a fight to analyze.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's super helpful when you provide concrete numbers backed up by logs like this. Can you provide a youtube video of your shaman where FSI is applicable? Ideally one where at least one slow is resisted. If it's one where you could also post the log in a text file, that would be best, but just the video would be helpful.

I don't want to do further analysis on a random video on your channel, as you may have reasons to call that fight atypical in some way, which is why I'm asking you to nominate a fight to analyze.

I usually do provide concrete numbers backed up by videos/logs, or I am referencing concrete numbers I have posted many times already, or I am referencing proven game formulas that can be backed up by videos/logs. Often times it gets drowned out in troll posts unfortunately. Many posters (especially trolls) generally do not post concrete numbers to back up their points by comparison.

As for your question about when FSI is applicable:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU - A fight where I marked all of the places where a bash occurred in the description. There were 12 occasions. The number of bashes is lower because the mob was slowed. FSI would have prevented at least one stun statistically using the data from my previous post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671067&postcount=267

https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?feature=shared&t=438 - At this mark I was bashed by Bravatar like half a second before Slow finished casting. If that bash had a stun component, I would have lost a full 6 seconds of cast time, and not have him slowed. I would need to attempt to slow again and take more unslowed damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLhe3KQXke0 - Here is a video where my first attempt at slowing was resisted, even after malo. I landed the second slow, and the dragon bashed me right after. If I was a bit slower to react on casting the second slow or had gotten a fizzle, I could have been down two slows if that bash had a stun component.

In all three of these videos, Iksar/Troll Regeneration wouldn't have helped at all during the preslow phase. It would have only saved me 30 seconds of recovery time after the fight, as you get 1200 HP from Iksar/Troll Regeneration over 15 minutes, which is the equivalent of 1 Torpor.

[Troxx]

Thanks for the numbers. Though not strictly controlled and though there is a chance erroneous occurrences (ie spell stuns) - they are likely negligible. Not worth splitting hairs over. Did you ever hunt mobs like sonic bats with a stun proc? Probably not but worth asking.

1). Good to know that common knowledge is correct- the majority of landed bashes do not stun.

2) Also good to know that you got stunned 41.525 times on average per level. Or another way of thinking about it you spent 41-85 seconds being melee stunned per level on unslowed mobs.

I’m curious enough now that I will go pull up some logs of one of my melee to look at the average duration of a single stun.

If a shaman were leveling and with a similar stun rate, reduce the number of stuns in a manner that correlates for the mob being slowed … oh and all that time playing a shaman where you weren’t face tanking (groups/duos, root rot, pet tanking). A shaman leveling will not be face tanking unslowed mobs from 12-52 the same 100% of the time.

We’re making good progress. Now show us some situations where your circumstances were tenuous enough that a brief stun would have a meaningful impact on fight outcome.

Bear in mind that we already know that the botb shaman soloist (barbarian) had all that success without FSI.

Keep it up (not sarcastic here). I’m interested to see what you come up with.

[Naethyn]

I'd be upset too if a barbarian was the best shaman and I was really into shaman.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Keep it up (not sarcastic here). I’m interested to see what you come up with.

Thank you for a serious post. I also appreciate it, I am not being sarcastic.

Thanks for the numbers. Though not strictly controlled and though there is a chance erroneous occurrences (ie spell stuns) - they are likely negligible. Not worth splitting hairs over. Did you ever hunt mobs like sonic bats with a stun proc? Probably not but worth asking.


No problem! No, I did not hunt sonic bats. My leveling route was FoB/Kurns -> Highkeep Guards -> Crystal Caverns -> Tower of Frozen Shadow (Floor 3 and then Floor 6) -> Bloodgills -> Kelethin Guards (current location).


We’re making good progress. Now show us some situations where your circumstances were tenuous enough that a brief stun would have a meaningful impact on fight outcome.


I already did with my previous post https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671076&postcount=273. Look at the Bravatar video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igpbLuNe0ls&t=438s . I was bashed right before my Slow landed. I had taken ~20% of my total life in damage from Bravatar when he wasn't slowed. If I had to cast another slow while he was unslowed, that could have taken another ~20% of my life total, which means I would be at 60% life when the fight started. 160 HP from two minutes of Troll/Iksar Regeneration while pulling is ~6% of my life total by comparison. So in this instance FSI saved 20% life vs 6% life via Troll/Iksar Regeneration. This is further supported by this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLhe3KQXke0 - where casting malo + 2x slows caused me to take roughly 40% damage. I was bashed right after my second slow. If that bash had a stun component and I was a bit slower at casting slow (or had a fizzle), there is a good chance I would have needed to try casting slow again.


Bear in mind that we already know that the botb shaman soloist (barbarian) had all that success without FSI.


Everybody agrees racials are not required on a Shaman. Nor have I ever said they were required. Everybody agrees Barbarians can do the same content. We are simply looking at which racial is the Min/Max option. You can objectively determine which racial is best, even if it isn't needed to do content. This information is useful for people who like to Min/Max for fun. I am not trying to get people to regret their race choices or anything sinister like that. I just want the correct information to be out there for people interested in it.

[bcbrown]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU

Two malo casts, first interrupted (by a spell?)
Two Turgur's casts - first resisted.

https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?feature=shared&t=438 - first Turgur's lands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLhe3KQXke0

1 malo cast
Two turgur's casts - first resisted

So assumptions are that each fight has one Malo and two Turgur's, and the first Turgur's getting resisted.

Turgur's has a 3s cast and a 6s recast. Malo has a 5s cast, recast not applicable since it's unresistable.
That means the pre-slow portion of the fight is 5 + 3 + 6 + 3 or 17 seconds. Using an 8 second interval between bash/kick attempts, that's 2.125 bash/kicks per fight pre-slow. Using your 70/30 split, that's 1.4875 bashes.

Your numbers were 21044 total kick/bashes and 6718 kicks, so 14326 bash attempts. 6157 bashes hit, so the success rate was .4298 (6157 / 14326). Your data shows a stun rate of .2698 (1661 / 6157) on successful bashes.

1.4875 expected bashes pre-slow results in .639 successful bashes, or .1725 stuns, or about one in six fights.

You with me so far? If so we can proceed to damage calculations. Two numbers that would help greatly are average stun duration and Turgur's resist rate. Here I'm using a 50% resist rate (data shows 3/5 or 40%), but it's gotta be closer to 10-20%, right? Until Troxx or someone else digs up some stun duration from logs, my wild-ass guess is that it'll be about 3 seconds?

Providing a full log of one of these fights will also help with damage estimates.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEgFcImQ9XU

Two malo casts, first interrupted (by a spell?)
Two Turgur's casts - first resisted.

https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?feature=shared&t=438 - first Turgur's lands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLhe3KQXke0

1 malo cast
Two turgur's casts - first resisted

So assumptions are that each fight has one Malo and two Turgur's, and the first Turgur's getting resisted.

Turgur's has a 3s cast and a 6s recast. Malo has a 5s cast, recast not applicable since it's unresistable.
That means the pre-slow portion of the fight is 5 + 3 + 6 + 3 or 17 seconds. Using an 8 second interval between bash/kick attempts, that's 2.125 bash/kicks per fight pre-slow. Using your 70/30 split, that's 1.4875 bashes.

Your numbers were 21044 total kick/bashes and 6718 kicks, so 14326 bash attempts. 6157 bashes hit, so the success rate was .4298 (6157 / 14326). Your data shows a stun rate of .2698 (1661 / 6157) on successful bashes.

1.4875 expected bashes pre-slow results in .639 successful bashes, or .1725 stuns, or about one in six fights.

You with me so far? If so we can proceed to damage calculations. Two numbers that would help greatly are average stun duration and Turgur's resist rate. Here I'm using a 50% resist rate (data shows 3/5 or 40%), but it's gotta be closer to 10-20%, right? Until Troxx or someone else digs up some stun duration from logs, my wild-ass guess is that it'll be about 3 seconds?

Providing a full log of one of these fights will also help with damage estimates.

I have full logs of a fight posted in the description of my Ionat video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 . I'll need to dig through my logs to find the 4+ Dragons. Average DPS was ~19 over 20 minutes, but the mob was slowed by 75% basically the entire time. That means Ionat is probably doing around 80 DPS unslowed. Ionat is a 6+ Dragon, so let's drop the DPS by 20% as a rough estimate. At 64 DPS unslowed, you would lose 512 HP over 8 seconds (3 second cast + ~2 second stun + 3 second cast) if you got interrupted at the end of your slow, as I could have been in the Bravatar video. So with the Bravatar video you are looking at saving 160 HP from Iksar/Troll Regeneration (2 minutes of pulling under 100% HP) vs. saving 512 HP with FSI (not having to cast another slow). This rough estimate is supported by the two videos I posted, where I took roughly 20% of my life per slow attempt in both videos. I also take roughly 20% of my life per slow attempt in the Ionat video when he is unslowed. My life total is 2620.

[bcbrown]

Great, 2 second stun duration and 64 DPS.

Since we have an expected stun rate of 17%, I'll discard the possibility of two stuns in a fight, and focus on the expected damage added given one stun occurs. Since I'm not going to build out a full Markov Chain for you, I'll asume the stun timing is fully stochastic, meaning it's equally likely to occur at any point of the 17 seconds pre-slow.

If it occurs during the malo: the malo phase goes from 5s to <duration of malo cast before stun> + 2 + 5. The stochastic assumption lets us take the midpoint of the cast as the expected time, so it goes from 5s to 2.5 + 2 + 5, or 9.5, adding 4.5 seconds.
If it occurs during a slow, using the same logic, we have it going from 3s to 1.5 + 2 + 3, or 6.5, adding 3.5 seconds.
If it occurs during a recast interval, it's slightly different. We add the 2s stun duration, but subtract time from the recast time; if you get stunned immediately after a resisted slow, the stun will end before the recast duration, adding zero time.
So, if it occurs in the first 4s of a recast, there's zero impact.
If it occurs in the last 2s of a recast duration, the expected duration impact will be 1 second saved from recast duration, plus 2 seconds stunned, or 1 second added.
Over 17 seconds, we have:
5 seconds casting malo, with 4.5 seconds expected added
6 seconds casting slow, with 3.5 seconds expected added
4 seconds in recast duration for the slow, with 0 seconds expected added
2 seconds in recast duration for the slow, with 1 seconds expected added

So the total expected time added will be:
5/17 * 4.5 + 6/17 * 3.5 + 4/17 * 0 + 2/17 * 1

This is an expected time added of 2.68 seconds, which at 64 DPS is 171 expected damage added.

Worst case will be a stun in the last second of a malo, which would be adding a 2 second stun and a 5 second cast, or 448 damage. This will occur 1/17th of the time. Next worst case is in the last second of a slow, which would add a 2 second stun and a 3 second cast, or 320 damage. Since there's three casts in this scenario, there's a total of 3/17th chance of this worst case happening.

So:
There's a 1 in 6 chance of a stun happening pre-slow.
If there's a slow, the expected damage is 171.
There's a 3/17 chance the expected damage is either 320 or 448.

This means the worst case will happen around .1725 * 3/17 or 3% of the time.

Edit: hold on, double-checking math. Ok, satisfied now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Great, 2 second stun duration and 64 DPS.

Since we have an expected stun rate of 17%, I'll discard the possibility of two stuns in a fight, and focus on the expected damage added given one stun occurs. Since I'm not going to build out a full Markov Chain for you, I'll asume the stun timing is fully stochastic, meaning it's equally likely to occur at any point of the 17 seconds pre-slow.

If it occurs during the malo: the malo phase goes from 5s to <duration of malo cast before stun> + 2 + 5. The stochastic assumption lets us take the midpoint of the cast as the expected time, so it goes from 5s to 2.5 + 2 + 5, or 9.5, adding 4.5 seconds.
If it occurs during a slow, using the same logic, we have it going from 3s to 1.5 + 2 + 3, or 6.5, adding 3.5 seconds.
If it occurs during a recast interval, it's slightly different. We add the 2s stun duration, but subtract time from the recast time; if you get stunned immediately after a resisted slow, the stun will end before the recast duration, adding zero time.
So, if it occurs in the first 4s of a recast, there's zero impact.
If it occurs in the last 2s of a recast duration, the expected duration impact will be 1 second saved from recast duration, plus 2 seconds stunned, or 1 second added.
Over 17 seconds, we have:
5 seconds casting malo, with 4.5 seconds expected added
6 seconds casting slow, with 3.5 seconds expected added
4 seconds in recast duration for the slow, with 0 seconds expected added
2 seconds in recast duration for the slow, with 1 seconds expected added

So the total expected time added will be:
5/17 * 4.5 + 4/17 * 0 + 2/17 * 3.5 + 6/17 * 1

This is an expected time added of 2.09 seconds, which at 64 DPS is 133 expected damage added.

Worst case will be a stun in the last second of a malo, which would be adding a 2 second stun and a 5 second cast, or 448 damage. This will occur 1/17th of the time. Next worst case is in the last second of a slow, which would add a 2 second stun and a 3 second cast, or 320 damage. Since there's three casts in this scenario, there's a total of 3/17th chance of this worst case happening.

So:
There's a 1 in 6 chance of a stun happening pre-slow.
If there's a slow, the expected damage is 133.
There's a 3/17 chance the expected damage is either 320 or 448.

This means the worst case will happen around .1725 * 3/17 or 3% of the time.

Using your own calculations, you can see that FSI gives you hundreds of HP in the first 17 seconds of the pre-slow phase of a fight when it triggers. Iksar/Troll Regeneration would consistently give you 24 HP in the same amount of time.

Realistically speaking 24 HP is basically never going to help during the pre-slow phase of a fight. The chances of 24 HP saving you from death is much lower than 3%. This is why FSI is better from a Min/Max perspective, and why people pick Vindi BP over Fungi Tunic. The chance to reduce damage spikes via Vindi BP or FSI is higher than the chance that 24 HP is going to save you during the pre-slow phase of a fight, which is the most dangerous phase of a fight. Once the mob is slowed, Iksar/Troll Regeneration is just going to help you with recovery time at the end of the fight, which ends up being 30 seconds in a 15 minute fight. Less if the fight is shorter.

[bcbrown]

Iksar/Troll Regeneration would consistently give you 24 HP in the same amount of time.

Expected damage saved pre-slow by FSI overall:
82.75% of the time: none
17.25% of the time: 133

Total:
0 * .8275 + 133 * .1725 = 22.9425

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Expected damage saved pre-slow by FSI overall:
82.75% of the time: none
17.25% of the time: 133

Total:
0 * .8275 + 133 * .1725 = 22.9425

Your flaw is that you are trying to spread out the damage saved from FSI over an average, which doesn't make sense.

23 or 24 HP makes no difference in the pre-slow phase of the fight. When you do get hit for hundreds of HP worth of damage during the 3% of the time when FSI matters, you are in much greater danger.

This is why FSI is better than Iksar/Troll Regeneration. Removing a damage spike of hundreds of damage from at least 3% of your fights is better than gaining 24 HP in all of your fights consistently, which is essentially meaningless.

[Troxx]

Math is math.

His logic and reasoning is quite sound. Yes extraordinarily bad luck is possible, but so is extraordinarily good luck on the other end of the spectrum

Thanks for the work bcbrown

[bcbrown]

Removing a damage spike from at least 3% of your fights is better than gaining 24 HP in all of your fights consistently, which is essentially meaningless.

This is a reasonable opinion. I find it fairly compelling for anyone who's endgame gameplay is primarily soloing WW dragons and cliff golems.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is a reasonable opinion. I find it fairly compelling for anyone who's endgame gameplay is primarily soloing WW dragons and cliff golems.

It's not an opinion, it is indeed a fact.

Iksar/Troll Regeneration will always give you 24 HP in the first 17 seconds of the pre-slow phase of the fight. Factually speaking the odds of 24 HP saving you in any individual fight is significantly lower than 3%. It's much closer to 0%. FSI will give you either 0 HP, or Hundreds of HP in the first 17 seconds of the pre-slow phase of the fight.

Iksar/Troll Regeneration gives you basically the equivalent of 0 HP consistently in the first 17 seconds of the fight. FSI sometimes gives you hundreds of HP in the first 17 seconds of the fight, which is significant.

Something is better than nothing in this case factually speaking. Reducing a damage spike in 3% of your fights is better than an almost 0% chance of surviving a fight with only 24 HP remaining.

FSI is indeed better than Iksar/Troll Regeneration on a Torpor Shaman. It is the Min/Max option. The math and evidence presented shows this result clearly.

It is also not limited to soloing WW dragons and cliff golems. Shamans tank well in groups, and raid Shamans use https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh to slow mobs.

[bcbrown]

Indeed.

[Troxx]

Iksar/Troll Regeneration gives you basically the equivalent of 0 HP consistently in the first 17 seconds of the fight. FSI sometimes gives you hundreds of HP in the first 17 seconds of the fight, which is significant.

*Sometimes = the bash actually hit you, the bash actually stunned you if it hit, the mob landed at least an average amount of hits for average damage during the time you had to wait for stun to end and start your cast all over again, you were in the middle of casting a spell when the bash hit (in one of your examples it happened, but after your spell finished) you were the one tanking (often the case when solo) - AND such an occurrence had a meaningful impact on the success/failure of the encounter in question.

Like I have said previously ... meeting all of the above criteria is that perfect storm of awful which, from personal experience, I can promise you has never actually happened to my Troll shaman during my time spent playing him (to include soloing WW dragons, Cliff golems, etc).

The argument is certainly worth considering if your only goal playing your shaman is to solo trophy mobs at level 60. But then you have to ignore the entire part of your shaman that might play in groups, duos, trios, use your dog to pet, are root rotting ... or really every aspect of the game levels 1-59 and pre-torpor.

Even considering that extremely narrow focus of the game, my stance remains that the regen is going to be more potent in the long run.

Edit: grammar

[DeathsSilkyMist]

*Sometimes = the bash actually hit you, the bash actually stunned you if it hit, the mob landed at least an average amount of hits for average damage during the time you had to wait for stun to end and start your cast all over again, you were in the middle of casting a spell when the bash hit (in one of your examples it happened, but after your spell finished) you were the one tanking (often the case when solo) - AND such an occurrence had a meaningful impact on the success/failure of the encounter in question.

Like I have said previously ... meeting all of the above criteria is that perfect storm of awful which, from personal experience, I can promise you has never actually happened to my Troll shaman during my time spent playing him (to include soloing WW dragons, Cliff golems, etc).


Averages are how this game works. A 3% chance to reduce damage spikes that are hundreds of damage is better than a near 0% chance of surviving with 24 HP left. Damage spikes are the most dangerous thing a Torpor Shaman faces. This is in solo, group, or raid scenarios. I never said FSI was a game breaking advantage. I am simply pointing out the mathematical fact that 3% > ~0%. This is why FSI is better.


But then you have to ignore the entire part of your shaman that might play in groups, duos, trios, use your dog to pet, are root rotting ... or really every aspect of the game levels 1-59 and pre-torpor.


Yes, this is what you do when looking at Min/Max. You figure out what the best possible character you can make looks like, assuming you reached the end of the game. In the case of Everquest, that means Level 60, full spell book, full BiS gear.

Everybody agrees that Iksar/Troll Regeneration is better while leveling. I say so as much in my guide, which is years old at this point. But there are plenty of people who spend more time farming the endgame than playing the leveling game. There are also plenty of people who spend more time in the leveling game than the endgame.

That is why I give people all of the facts and let them decide what to do. If you want to Min/Max, Ogre is the answer. If you want to have the best time leveling from 1-60 before you get Torpor, Troll is the answer. Once people have all of the information about the game, they can confidently decide what they want to do at character creation.

[Troxx]

Yes, this is what you do when looking at Min/Max. You figure out what the best possible character you can make looks like, assuming you reached the end of the game. In the case of Everquest, that means Level 60, full spell book, full BiS gear.

And in doing so you have to acknowledge that the botb shaman was a barbarian who had neither racial boosts. The take home point is that NONE of it was NECESSARY. The question is which provides the most boost/benefit over the life of a charcter.

If neither is a hard or soft requirement:

Answer: regen; by a college mile.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And in doing so you have to acknowledge that the botb shaman was a barbarian who had neither racial boosts. The take home point is that NONE of it was NECESSARY.


I am not sure why you keep repeating this. Nobody that I have seen has claimed that racials were necessary. I have never said this either in any forum post ever. Who are you arguing against lol?

The point that racials are not necessary is completely irrelevant to which racial is objectively best when Min/Maxing, which is FSI for Shamans. Objectively Best != Necessary.

[Troxx]

If you don't need FSI to win encounters, regen wins.

To steal from your playbook:

Thanks for conceding you are wrong and I am right!

/thread

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you don't need FSI to win encounters, regen wins.


You have already agreed that regen is not necessary earlier in this thread.


A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.

There is no disagreement here.


If no racials are necessary, then you are no longer comparing them based on necessity. You are comparing them based on which is better. This is FSI, which has been clearly shown with math and evidence in this thread. You still need to provide counter-evidence if you think what I have provided is wrong.


Thanks for conceding you are wrong and I am right!


This doesn't work when you say it. This is because I am not ending a debate with insults, lies, and trolls. You lose a debate when you realize you cannot rebut points made, and thus must resort to insults, lies, and trolls in an attempt to win through underhanded methods.

[bcbrown]

Averages are how this game works.

Wait a second... you just told me that averages were meaningless and my calculation of expected values didn't make sense!

You lose a debate when you realize you cannot rebut points made, and thus must resort to insults, lies, and trolls in an attempt to win through underhanded methods.

Indeed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wait a second... you just told me that averages were meaningless and my calculation of expected values didn't make sense!


This is a poor attempt at a troll. It shows you are grasping for straws.

The reason why you do not average out the damage that FSI prevents is because we are talking about a specific time period during individual fights, not overall damage prevented in an hour. We were discussing the first 17 seconds of a fight when the mob has not been slowed yet.

FSI prevents hundreds of damage when it triggers within the first 17 seconds of an encounter when the mob has not yet been slowed. Conversely, Troll/Iksar Regeneration will always provide 24 HP in the same timeframe of 17 seconds.

You essentially tried to pull a fast one and average out FSI's damage across an hour to make it seem similar to what you get from Regeneration in 17 seconds lol. It was very sad to see.

[bcbrown]

You essentially tried to pull a fast one and average out FSI's damage across an hour to make it seem similar to what you get from Regeneration in 17 seconds lol. It was very sad to see.

The expected damage mitigated by FSI in the first 17 (pre-slowed) seconds is 23, according to the calculations I posted (using numbers you provided). You're welcome to contest those calculations; there's several areas of wiggle room I can identify. But you have yet to do so.

I honestly did not expect it to come out exactly one less damage than regen does in the same period. That was pure coincidence. But it does bring a smile to my face.

I still think Ogre is probably the best choice if the most important aspect of gameplay you care about is endgame soloing

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The expected damage mitigated by FSI in the first 17 (pre-slowed) seconds is 23, according to the calculations I posted (using numbers you provided). You're welcome to contest those calculations; there's several areas of wiggle room I can identify. But you have yet to do so.

I honestly did not expect it to come out exactly one less damage than regen does in the same period. That was pure coincidence. But it does bring a smile to my face.


I just said why this incorrect. You are basically taking the average damage FSI reduces in an hour when taking into account the 8.5% trigger rate per fight, and then comparing it to an individual fight where FSI actually triggered. That is clearly incorrect. That is like saying Ice Spear of Solist only does 78 damage when you cast it in an individual fight, because spamming that spell over an hour is only 13 DPS. Icy Spear of Solist still does 1200 damage to an individual monster, even if the average spam DPS is 13. This is why Wizard nukes are still useful. Their average DPS is low, but they can kill an individual mob quickly.

The same logic with Wizard nukes applies to FSI. You aren't worried about the average damage that FSI reduces over an hour. You specifically want FSI's ability to reduce hundreds of points of damage within a short time period when it does trigger in an individual encounter.

[bcbrown]

If you're conceding that the statement:

Averages are how this game works.

is incorrect, I withdraw my objection.

It annoys me that I have to build the structure of your argument for you, but the proper way to do this is to replace an average with a probability distribution: instead of DPS, which is an average, model damage taken as a normal distribution with a mean and standard deviation, and then calculate the probability of the damage taken exceeding some threshold. It'll be much less than 3%, probably between 1% and 0.1%, depending on the threshold. If you want assistance building that probability distribution, I can help.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you're conceding that the statement:


I am not conceding. Everquest does work on averages. You are either trolling or don't understand the math. It is honestly hard to tell.

You are basically trying to claim spells like https://wiki.project1999.com/Ice_Spear_of_Solist only do 78 Damage every time you cast them, because spamming Ice Spear of Solist over an hour is roughly 13 DPS, assuming you meditate perfectly and have no mana regeneration buffs.

This is incorrect. An individual cast of Icy Spear of Solist does 1200 damage to the mob. You use Wizard nukes because Icy Spear of the Solist does 1200 damage in a short period of time. The purpose of Icy Spear of Solist is to burn down an individual mob quickly, not provide average DPS over an hour.

The same logic applies to FSI. You use FSI because it reduces hundreds of points of damage within a short period of time in an individual fight when it does trigger. You are not using it to try and reduce more damage per hour than passive regeneration.

[bcbrown]

You're saying that EQ works on averages, while also saying that the flaw in my argument is that I'm using averages. Please forgive my confusion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're saying that EQ works on averages, while also saying that the flaw in my argument is that I'm using averages. Please forgive my confusion.

I see you avoided my entire post. Please address what I said in my previous post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671124&postcount=298

[branamil]

It would be funny if all p99 internet debates had to have a video of the poster saying their argument out loud.

[Jimjam]

The expected damage mitigated by FSI in the first 17 (pre-slowed) seconds is 23, according to the calculations I posted (using numbers you provided). You're welcome to contest those calculations; there's several areas of wiggle room I can identify. But you have yet to do so.

I honestly did not expect it to come out exactly one less damage than regen does in the same period. That was pure coincidence. But it does bring a smile to my face.

I still think Ogre is probably the best choice if the most important aspect of gameplay you care about is endgame soloing

I don’t think FSI is about mitigation anyway - opposite to you I’m a little surprised the calculated average benefit is so high. My perception of FSI value is the benefit it provides at the extreme end of the normal - where that bash stun initiates a sequence of catastrophic failure. Obviously, by definition, that is more of a fringe occurrence, but for someone who is failure adverse (perhaps they like to kill rare, highly competed mobs - something OP wonders whether lacking JBB may make a difference) that may be a decisive benefit. For me, someone who likes to deal with the spice of things going a bit pete tong from time to time it’s not very enticing.

[Duik]

I am not sure why you keep repeating this. Nobody that I have seen has claimed that racials were necessary. I have never said this either in any forum post ever. Who are you arguing against lol?

The point that racials are not necessary is completely irrelevant to which racial is objectively best when Min/Maxing, which is FSI for Shamans. Objectively Best != Necessary.

Wow. You have repeatedly said after a long and convoluted factual fact filled math lesson that you just want to give the op (and everyone else) the correct information and to protect us from the terrible horrible trolls mussing up the place.

Extra points for insulting bcbrown and his grasp of math... Jesus Fucking Christ

[Troxx]

My perception of FSI value is the benefit it provides at the extreme end of the normal - where that bash stun initiates a sequence of catastrophic failure. Obviously, by definition, that is more of a fringe occurrence, but for someone who is failure adverse (perhaps they like to kill rare, highly competed mobs - something OP wonders whether lacking JBB may make a difference) that may be a decisive benefit. For me, someone who likes to deal with the spice of things going a bit pete tong from time to time it’s not very enticing.

I literally do not think this could be said better.

Pras

To bcbrown: thanks again on a lot of fronts:

-Thanks for doing all that math.
-Thank you for the detailed discussion.
-Thank you for ensuring your target audience was following your logical steps between posts.
-Thank you for the valiant effort to lead your target audience by the nose to the mathematical results for his hand picked, worst case scenario npc encounter
-thank you most of all for demonstrating overwhelming restraint and an abundance of maturity when your target audience bit your finger while you led him (by the nose) to the inevitable conclusion that upset him

Do you work in higher education (undergrad, masters or doctoral level)? You carry yourself like a seasoned professor that is perhaps overly patient.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I literally do not think this could be said better.

Pras

To bcbrown: thanks again on a lot of fronts:

-Thanks for doing all that math.
-Thank you for the detailed discussion.
-Thank you for ensuring your target audience was following your logical steps between posts.
-Thank you for the valiant effort to lead your target audience by the nose to the mathematical results for his hand picked, worst case scenario npc encounter
-thank you most of all for demonstrating overwhelming restraint and an abundance of maturity when your target audience bit your finger while you led him (by the nose) to the inevitable conclusion that upset him

Do you work in higher education (undergrad, masters or doctoral level)? You carry yourself like a seasoned professor that is perhaps overly patient.

BcBrown has proven himself to be a troll at this point unfortunately. It's been obvious for a while now. There are a few easy giveaways. The first is his signature. No normal poster changes their signature simply to reference a discussion they thought they won.

Second was when he admitted to trolling in another thread. This shows his willingness to do so, and will not admit it unless called out.

Third, his math is not actually impressive, as he makes mistakes often. His tactic is to use math terms that most people don't know in an attempt to impress.

His latest mistake is trying to compare averages of different timescale. You do not use a hourly average of DPS to look at the benefit of wizard nukes, for example. Average DPS of spamming Icy Spear of Solist is 80 in a minute. Average DPS of the same spell over an hour is 13. You cannot directly compare the two.

[Troxx]

BcBrown has proven himself to be a troll at this point unfortunately. It's been obviois for a while now.

You know, that actually doesn’t mean anything coming from you. You have always labeled anyone who doesn’t agree with you a “troll”. You are most likely to do so once you’ve lost an argument. I honestly question if you understand the meaning of the word at this point.

Bcbrown has been really mature in his interactions with you. His posts are tempered and intelligent.

Sorry he used math to hand you your ass on a silver platter.

It happened.

You’re butt hurt.

We get it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You know, that actually doesn’t mean anything coming from you. You have always labeled anyone who doesn’t agree with you a “troll”. You are most likely to do so once you’ve lost an argument. I honestly question if you understand the meaning of the word at this point.

Bcbrown has been really mature in his interactions with you. His posts are tempered and intelligent.

Sorry he used math to hand you your ass on a silver platter.

It happened.

You’re butt hurt.

We get it.

No, troll labels and opinions of other posters mean nothing from you. You have literally hundreds of posts of silly gifs when you throw temper tantrums. You also call everybody who disagrees with you autistic, and you spend paragraphs making fake medical diagnoses to do so.

Of course you are going to support him regardless of whether or not he is correct. You do the same thing with other trolls who aren't acting "mature". You'll side with anybody who agrees with you.

Unfortunately you just cannot admit when you are wrong. You couldn't even admit you were wrong about damage/mana values on Necromancers when anybody can check the wiki.

I've already show Bcbrown was wrong to compare average FSI damage reduction values using different timescales. Pretending he did not do that just supports my position that you are agreeing with him without actually understanding what he did.

Average FSI damage reduction during the first minute of a fight is hundreds of damage when it triggers. If an unslowed mob doing 64 DPS stuns you during casting a slow, you would lose 2-5 seconds worth of life, depending on far along the casting bar was. This is 128-320 life. Troll/Iksar Regeneration gives you 8 life after 6 seconds. You compare the average HP saved over this timescale in individual fights, because that is where FSI's utility lies. It is the same thing with wizard nukes. You look at the average DPS wizard nukes do in individual fights, not the average DPS wizard nukes do over an hour. This is because the utility of wizard nukes is measured on a different timescale.

[Toxigen]

jesus fucking christ

[DeathsSilkyMist]

jesus fucking christ

Agreed. I am still baffled by why people troll this forum so hard. It's just hurting the community, and making themselves look bad in the process.

[Troxx]

https://i0.wp.com/lynseyg.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/picard-double-facepalm-gif-writereditorproblems-lynseyg.gif?ssl=1

[DeathsSilkyMist]

For people who are interested in why FSI is the Min/Max option, please refer to these two posts:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671067&postcount=267 - This is hard data showing that FSI prevents stuns from occurring roughly 8.5% of the time when a kick/bash attempt is made.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671076&postcount=273 - This shows three practical scenarios where FSI would have saved hundreds of HP worth of damage in a short time period. Damage spikes where you take 10-20% of your total life in damage are more problamatic than saving maybe 30 seconds of recovery time after a fight via Iksar/Troll Regen when you have Torpor.

Here is Troxx, the strongest opposition to FSI, agreeing that passive regeneration from Fungi Tunic and Iksar/Troll Regeneration is not necessary on a Torpor Shaman:


A level 60 shaman with torpor doesn't need regen anymore.
I agree.
You agree.
We all agree!
They don't need a fungi tunic - drop it for vindi bp
They don't have to obsess about keeping regrowth up - it is LESS (but not entirely) relevent.
It's why a barbarian shaman at 60 functions so well. If regen was that important, a barbarian shaman would not be successful - but they are.

There is no disagreement here.


Further supporting this, Troxx gave his Fungi Tunic to an alt after getting Torpor:


For me? When I got torpor I gave my fungi to my alt and am using a thurg chain bp. Not that thurg is better but my monk wanted a fungi and I’m poor.


Here is Troxx agreeing that Vindi BP can be BiS. This also shows he has also seen the trend of Torpor Shamans not using Fungi Tunic anymore, which includes himself. The logic used to reach this conclusion is the same logic used to understand why FSI is better. A random chance to reduce a damage spike is better than a small yet consistent passive regeneration:


Vindi BP has palpable potential benefits that are clearly defined. It gives a clearly defined boost to ac, hp, stats, and resists. Globally? A strong case can be made that 13 more regen (the fungi) is better than the stats resist. After torpor a case could be made that Vindi bp is globally better. Both stances have merit but most shamans I know simply sold their fungi to buy other things or passed it down to alts after they got torpor.


Thus far the opposition has agreed with most of my points, and has been unable to disprove my points.

Bcbrown incorrectly attempted to average FSI's damage reduction over multiple fights using the trigger percentage of FSI to make it appear that FSI does not reduce hundreds of damage in a single fight https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671097&postcount=281 . Comparing how much Iksar/Troll Regeneration provides in a single fight over 17 seconds to the average damage FSI reduces over multiple fights is an apples to oranges comparison. It is dishonest at worst, and bad math at best.

Bcbrown has also done some trolling in this thread:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670947&postcount=238 - This is a common lie and strawman perpetuated by trolls who cannot rebut points.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670517&postcount=190 - This is Bcbrown supporting Troxx's fake medical diagnosis, which also supports Troxx's trolling.

When Troxx cannot rebut points, he resorts to silly gifs and fake autism medical diagnoses:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670497&postcount=182 - fake medical diagnosis.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670950&postcount=240 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670390&postcount=156 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670385&postcount=151 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670233&postcount=100 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3669799&postcount=38 - Silly gif

[Toxigen]

touch grass and get ass bub

[DeathsSilkyMist]

touch grass and get ass bub

Done and done! Now please learn to stop posting nonsense.

[Jimjam]

Some of you arguments don’t follow through.

Maybe FSI is the best for a torp shaman, but some of the points you make fail to argue that.

For example: Admitting regen isn’t necessary on a torp shaman is not the same as admitting fsi is best - neither are needed on a torp shaman! Using the same faulty logic you may as well argue the opposite - fsi isn’t needed by a torpor shaman so regen is best! Of course it is not possible for it to be both ways - they aren’t dichotomous so don’t really pair up as null/alternative hypothesis and therefore disproving one doesn’t support the other.

I think this is a detail you are overlooking - you seem to assume that posters who discuss your position of FSI are doing to support other racials as ‘best’ (and in some cases those posters may be doing so) but in many cases other posters don’t really have a favourite, they are just pointing out flaws in your arguments and you are pigeon holing them into being regen simps (I know you have done so to me in the past).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Some of you arguments don’t follow through.

Maybe FSI is the best for a torp shaman, but some of the points you make fail to argue that.


I disagree, and simply claiming this is not a good enough argument by itself. If you want to show that my points are incorrect, you need to back it up with something other than your opinion that I am wrong.


For example: Admitting regen isn’t necessary on a torp shaman is not the same as admitting fsi is best - neither are needed on a torp shaman!


Agreed. I never said "admitting regen isn't necessary means FSI is the best". I also agree neither are necessary. I am pointing out that Troxx agrees regen isn't necessary, which means Troxx cannot make the argument "Regen is necessary and FSI isn't".


I think this is a detail you are overlooking - you seem to assume that posters who discuss your position of FSI are doing to support other racials as ‘best’ (and in some cases those posters may be doing so) but in many cases other posters don’t really have a favourite, they are just pointing out flaws in your arguments and you are pigeon holing them into being regen simps (I know you have done so to me in the past).

People are indeed trying to make factual claims about which racial is better. I have no problem with people saying "I prefer Regen over FSI". That is a completely valid opinion to have. But once you try to make a factual claim that Regen is better than FSI, you need to back it up. FSI is objectively the best racial when looking at the facts thus far. If someone wants to prove otherwise, they need to provide evidence to counter my evidence.

I think the real issue is people are afraid of finalizing these kinds of discussions with facts and evidence, because that means there will be less to talk about on the forums. I think a lot of people prefer to shoot the shit with random information and don't really care if it is true. I like shooting the shit too, but the Class Discussions section is specifically designed to answer questions about classes in a factual manner. There are other areas on this forum to shoot the shit.

[Troxx]

For example: Admitting regen isn’t necessary on a torp shaman is not the same as admitting fsi is best - neither are needed on a torp shaman!

Ayup! I’ve pointed this out to him many times but he’s still snipping out portions of my posts and putting words in my mouth

It’s ok.
DSM is just flailing at this point.
He does this in every DSM thread.

I don’t know who he thinks he is talking to with these summary posts.

[bcbrown]

I don’t think FSI is about mitigation anyway - opposite to you I’m a little surprised the calculated average benefit is so high. My perception of FSI value is the benefit it provides at the extreme end of the normal - where that bash stun initiates a sequence of catastrophic failure. Obviously, by definition, that is more of a fringe occurrence, but for someone who is failure adverse (perhaps they like to kill rare, highly competed mobs - something OP wonders whether lacking JBB may make a difference) that may be a decisive benefit. For me, someone who likes to deal with the spice of things going a bit pete tong from time to time it’s not very enticing.

Oh, I agree absolutely. FSI shows its value when shit hits the fan. "Initiates a sequence of catastrophic failure" - this is exactly why I bring up Markov Chains. With that sort of analysis you can encode the state of the fight, including what spells have landed and how much damage you have taken. For example, the state at the start of the fight will be full hp; no debuffs. The two possible next states will be Malo landed; Malo failed to land. You give each state transition a probability, perhaps 85% and 15%. This lets you build out the full state space of a fight. Some parts of the chain can contain loops, like Casting Slow -> Slow failed to land -> Casting Slow.

The value of FSI is that it changes the probabilities of those state transitions, making it less likely you end up in the state of low health, slow failed to land. Markov Chain analysis was invented for precisely these types of problems, and the wikipedia article is at least somewhat intelligible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_chain#Transitions

I'm not willing to put in that much effort for this topic, and so went with a simplified analysis. But you correctly pointed out the "wiggle room" I was talking about; DSM I think intuitively understand the objection as well, but unfortunately he is unable to articulate it, which is why he's now talking about wizard nukes. I think the next area of improvement would be to replace the DPS number with a distribution, which lets us recognize that sometimes over a short interval a mob will do drastically more than average damage and sometimes drastically less. If, for example, we can say that 5% of the time a mob hits you for 400 damage, we can further refine the range out outcomes, and better quantify the probability that a fight turns so poor that one is forced to abandon the effort and gate out.

Unfortunately, as a filthy casual who's never leveled past 51, and never played a tank at all, I simply don't have the logs or intuitive understanding to build that probability distribution, and so I must rely on the DPS number that was provided to me. But if anyone else is interested in that analysis, I remain willing, even eager, to collaborate.

Do you work in higher education (undergrad, masters or doctoral level)? You carry yourself like a seasoned professor that is perhaps overly patient.

I greatly appreciate the kind words. My pedagogy has been developed through three activities - coaching novices in powerlifting, teaching the basics of tree identification on nature walks, and at work, where as a principal engineer, I spend a great deal of time mentoring junior engineers, some of whom have been quite dense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ayup! I’ve pointed this out to him many times but he’s still snipping out portions of my posts and putting words in my mouth

It’s ok.
DSM is just flailing at this point.
He does this in every DSM thread.

I don’t know who he thinks he is talking to with these summary posts.

I never said that FSI is better because regen isn't necessary. There is no place where you could have pointed this out to me to begin with lol. Why lie about something so trivial? It just makes you look bad.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM I think intuitively understand the objection as well, but unfortunately he is unable to articulate it, which is why he's now talking about wizard nukes.

As you can see, Bcbrown cannot win the argument with facts and logic. Therefore he must deflect to trying to score points because he disagrees with the format of my posts. He did this earlier by trying to suggest a mathematical proof format would somehow change the discussion in some way.

I prefer to speak in plain terms, because not everybody understands concepts like Markov Chains. Nor do people need to write out Markov chains to describe the benefits of FSI when looking at it from a high level.

You still havent addressed your obvious mistake in comparing averages of different timescales, and seem content to avoid the discussion all together.

[Troxx]

As you can see, Bcbrown cannot win the argument with facts and logic.

Bcbrown is literally running circles around you cognitively - and is doing so calmly and coherently. It’s like an intellectual cage fight featuring Neil Degrasse Tyson vs a highschool dropout.

Keep on flailing.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/6ea72d3e7d353a5ef4a8937e5157d8c9/tumblr_mo0661alAA1r76lino1_500.gif

#WizardNukesTotallyRelevant

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Bcbrown is literally running circles around you cognitively - and is doing so in calmly and coherently. It’s like an intellectual cage fight featuring Neil Degrasse Tyson vs a highschool dropout.


"DeathsSilkyMist is literally running circles around you cognitively - and is doing so in calmly and coherently. It’s like an intellectual cage fight featuring Neil Degrasse Tyson vs a highschool dropout."

There, I type the same thing. We are at an impasse.

Now, back to the actual discussion, where you have handily lost because you have no evidence backing up your position, and have agreed with me on most of my points already. You have also spent most of your time troll posting in an attempt to score points because of how badly you are losing.

For those interested in the truth and the actual discussion: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671204&postcount=311


#WizardNukesTotallyRelevant

Yes. Mathematically speaking Wizard Nukes do more DPS in a short time interval, and less DPS over a long time interval. Directly comparing short time interval averages with long time interval averages is nonsensical in this scenario.

FSI operates under the same principle. It's benefit comes from a short time interval, not a long time interval. You cannot compare the long time interval benefits of FSI to the short time interval benefit of Iksar/Troll Regeneration. You would compare likes, which is the short time interval benefit of FSI to the short time interval benefit of Iksar/Troll Regeneration.

[bcbrown]

Reposting my conclusions:


There's a 1 in 6 chance of a stun happening pre-slow.
If there's a slow, the expected damage is 171.
There's a 3/17 chance the expected damage is either 320 or 448.

This means the worst case will happen around .1725 * 3/17 or 3% of the time.

Comparing short-time intervals, which I happen to think is mostly irrelevant (as pointed out by Jimjam), but has been requested:
Expected damage saved pre-slow by FSI overall:
82.75% of the time: none
17.25% of the time: 133

Total:
0 * .8275 + 133 * .1725 = 22.9425

This analysis can be improved by incorporating a resist rate for Turgur's, and by replacing the use of DPS with a damage distribution that incorporates the possibility of a damage spike far exceeding average DPS.

If, for example, there's a 10% chance of actual damage being twice DPS over the relevant time period, I think there would be a 0.3% chance of 600+ damage.

To build a damage distribution from a log file, first filter out all lines except where you take damage. Then, for each line, remove everything except the timestamp and the damage taken. To bin the data, first choose a bin size. Reasonable possibilities could be 10 seconds or one minute. Transform the timestamp using the bin size, e.g. at ten seconds, turn 10:53:43 into 10:53:4. Group the data by bin, and compute the total damage by summing all the entries.

Now you have your observed damage distribution. To construct a modeled distribution, first choose the model; normal seems likely to fit. Then use a software package to calculate the best-fit for the model and confirm it's a good fit with a couple statistical tests. I'd have to further research this part, but https://www.datanovia.com/en/lessons/transform-data-to-normal-distribution-in-r/ seems like a good tutorial in R.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Reposting my conclusions:
...


Expected damage saved pre-slow by FSI overall:
82.75% of the time: none
17.25% of the time: 133

Total:
0 * .8275 + 133 * .1725 = 22.9425

This continues to be incorrect, as you are comparing incompatible time intervals of FSI and Iksar/Troll Regen. Simply ignoring this fact will not change that you are incorrect. FSI when it triggers will save hundreds of damage using your own calculations, and this is supported by the videos I have provided. Claiming a WW Dragon only does 23 damage when it hits you while unslowed in an individual fight has already been disproven by the video evidence I have posted.

Again, a simple analogy to your "conclusion" is you are claiming Icy Spear of Solist only does 13 DPS when spamming it within 1 minute, because Icy Spear of Solist does 13 DPS when spamming it within an hour. It is trivial to disprove such an argument. Continuing to double down on this is not helping your position.


Comparing short-time intervals, which I happen to think is mostly irrelevant (as pointed out by Jimjam), but has been requested:


This is the problem. You are missing the entire point. You are trying to compare how much damage FSI reduces within an hour, to try and make it analogous to Iksar/Troll Regen. This doesn't work, because the purpose of FSI is not to save you recovery time. It prevents damage spikes in a short period of time, which are the most dangerous situation a Shaman can be in. It is the same reason why you choose Vindi BP over Fungi Tunic. A random chance to reduce a damage spike in an individual fight is superior to a small consistent regeneration bonus.

[bcbrown]

The far more interesting result is that there's a roughly 3% chance of taking 300+ extra damage in the first 17 seconds of a fight for shamans who lack FSI.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The far more interesting result is that there's a roughly 3% chance of taking 300+ extra damage in the first 17 seconds of a fight for shamans who lack FSI.

Correct. This is why FSI is better for Torpor Shamans. A 3% chance to reduce 300+ extra damage is more useful than a ~0% chance to survive the fight with 24 HP remaining (3 ticks of Iksar/Troll Regeneration), and it is better than saving 1-2 minutes of recovery time per hour on a class that can fully recover in 3 minutes or less. It is the same reason why Torpor Shamans pick Vindi BP over Fungi Tunic. Vindi BP is more likely to reduce a random damage spike, which can save your life.

[bcbrown]

A reasonable opinion, and one that I mostly share, especially for anyone whose endgame gameplay is mostly soloing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A reasonable opinion, and one that I mostly share

I appreciate that you generally agree. Unlike the opinions of someone like Troxx, I have backed up my conclusions with evidence, facts, math, and logic. This elevates it above a simple opinion.

Trying to reduce all conversations down to equal opinions in an attempt to throw out all evidence, facts, math, and logic is simply an underhanded debate tactic, and you are doing a disservice to yourself by continuing to do this.

[Troxx]

If 300 extra damage (which we are calculating as a 3% probability chance) is not something you are capable of handling at the start of the fight, perhaps you should improve your gameplay. Nobody has stated that the possibility for the perfect storm doesn’t exist or that FSI has no value.

My stance has always been and remains that you overestimate and place too much emphasis on its actual value.

Coincidentally my shaman has 338hp less than your shaman, over 500 less mana and about 275 less ac than your shaman. See the magelo below. Weirdly, despite having this massive gear based handicap I have not struggled with any of these encounters.

Maybe I’m just better at playing shaman? I don’t happen to think I am particularly talented with the class compared to most dedicated shaman mains.

Maybe the likelihood we are assuming to be 3% is actually lower and therefore I have never once experienced it … and that few if any ever statistically would?

Food for thought.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Jolav

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Shamwowi

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If 300 extra damage (which we are calculating as a 3% probability chance) is not something you are capable of handling at the start of the fight, perhaps you should improve your gameplay. Nobody has stated that the possibility for the perfect storm doesn’t exist or that FSI has no value.

My stance has always been and remains that you overestimate and place too much emphasis on its actual value.

Coincidentally my shaman has 338hp less than your shaman, over 500 less mana and about 275 less ac than your shaman. See the magelo below. Weirdly, despite having this massive gear based handicap I have not struggled with any of these encounters.

Maybe I’m just better at playing shaman? I don’t happen to think I am particularly talented with the class compared to most dedicated shaman mains.

Maybe the likelihood we are assuming to be 3% is actually lower and therefore I have never once experienced it … and that few if any ever statistically would?

Food for thought.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Jolav

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Shamwowi

You are just going back to the same "racials aren't necessary" point, which everybody agrees with and has never been contested in this thread by anybody that I am aware of. I have never contested this point either.

You are also trying to score points with the "you are a bad player" nonsense. This isn't a valid argument, and I didn't say I needed FSI to win fights.

You are desperately trying to avoid the simple fact that Shaman racials being unecessary is irrelevant to which one is objectively the best out of the set of racials a Shaman can have. You can objectively determine which racial is best, and also agree that no racial is necessary for a Shaman. These are not mutually exclusive.

If you want to claim that Iksar/Troll Regeneration is objectively better than FSI, you need to provide more than silly gifs, insults, fallacious arguments, and fake medical diagnoses.

[bcbrown]

Maybe the likelihood we are assuming to be 3% is actually lower and therefore I have never once experienced it … and that few if any ever statistically would?

You can cut it in half simply by recognizing that since DPS is an average, you can expect below-average periods of damage taken half the time. Another area of over-estimation is assuming the first slow is always resisted - I expect the actual resist rates to be closer to 10-20%, but honestly don't know.

Another flaw is assuming that stuns occur stochasticallly. They actually can only occur once every 8(?) seconds, which is plenty of time to get Malo or slow in. In one of the three videos, the first bash attempt lands right as Malo is about to finish casting. A high-skill non-ogre shaman could perhaps find out exactly where to stand a little further back such that you can get Malo off before the first bash. Then, you'll have 8 seconds to get Turgur's off before the next possible bash attempt, which with a gcd clicky should be plenty of time.

A completely different approach would be to observe that a successful stun adds 2-7 seconds to the pre-slow encounter, which is room for what, two rounds of attacks? This approach would conclude that the expected damage taken in the case of a successful stun is double the damage probability distribution.

I certainly don't have any confidence that the 3% figure corresponds to any real-world outcomes. It's merely a first attempt at providing DSM with the quantitative analysis he so desperately wants but is unable to produce, and I wouldn't be surprised if incorporating these areas of improvement we can reduce that figure by an order of magnitude.

All abstract analysis needs to be gut-checked by real-world improvement; if the two do not comport, it's a sign that the analysis is incomplete. This is why the motto of my alma mater is “Lehr und Kunst” or “Theory and Practice;” all theory must be tempered by practice, lest you find yourself completely divorced from reality.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can cut it in half simply by recognizing that since DPS is an average, you can expect below-average periods of damage taken half the time. Another area of over-estimation is assuming the first slow is always resisted - I expect the actual resist rates to be closer to 10-20%, but honestly don't know.

Another flaw is assuming that stuns occur stochasticallly. They actually can only occur once every 8(?) seconds, which is plenty of time to get Malo or slow in. In one of the three videos, the first bash attempt lands right as Malo is about to finish casting. A high-skill non-ogre shaman could perhaps find out exactly where to stand a little further back such that you can get Malo off before the first bash. Then, you'll have 8 seconds to get Turgur's off before the next possible bash attempt, which with a gcd clicky should be plenty of time.

A completely different approach would be to observe that a successful stun adds 2-7 seconds to the pre-slow encounter, which is room for what, two rounds of attacks? This approach would conclude that the expected damage taken in the case of a successful stun is double the damage probability distribution.

I certainly don't have any confidence that the 3% figure corresponds to any real-world outcomes. It's merely a first attempt at providing DSM with the quantitative analysis he so desperately wants but is unable to produce, and I wouldn't be surprised if incorporating these areas of improvement we can reduce that figure by an order of magnitude.

All abstract analysis needs to be gut-checked by real-world improvement; if the two do not comport, it's a sign that the analysis is incomplete. This is why the motto of my alma mater is “Lehr und Kunst” or “Theory and Practice;” all theory must be tempered by practice, lest you find yourself completely divorced from reality.

You are again missing the point. The exact percentage of FSI triggering at the right time is not the important part. It could be the full 8.5% I got from my Monk data, it could be 3% from your initial calculation, and it could be 1% after taking into account additional variables. This is because the chance of 24 HP saving you while you are trying to slow a mob is much lower than 1% already.

The point is that FSI provides a better chance to survive a fight than 24 HP from Iksar/Troll Regen in the same 17 seconds of the pre-slow phase of a fight, when you are trying to slow the mob. That is the important part. Your attempts to obfuscate by quibbling over a specific percentage number is just a distraction.

If you want to do a deep dive mathematically and show objectively that Iksar/Troll Regen will actually save you in a fight more often than FSI, I would love to see it.

You also seem to forget that a number of variables like spell resists do not affect a specific racial at all. Both FSI and Troll/Iksar Regen do not modify spell resists. This means that if spell resists decrease your survivability by 10% in a fight, this will reduce the odds of both racials saving you by 10%.

[Troxx]

One truth that needs to be kept in mind: DSM never has an epiphany in a DSM thread. Goalposts will move. We’ll get on side tangents. We’ll talk about wizard nukes instead of FSI or regen.

I acknowledge the above and expect no less from this thread. If we were to keep responding (and I’m not saying that we shouldn’t) it’s gonna continue to get longer and longer with nobody saying anything that hasn’t been said and DSM copy/pasting his summaries “to help all the new guys out there”

[DeathsSilkyMist]

One truth that needs to be kept in mind: DSM never has an epiphany in a DSM thread. Goalposts will move. We’ll get on side tangents.

"One truth that needs to be kept in mind: Troxx never has an epiphany in a Troxx thread. Goalposts will move. We’ll get on side tangents."

I said the same thing. We are at an impasse again, as posting random words in a thread is not evidence of anything.

Now that Troxx's silly trolling is out of the way, back to the topic at hand. For those interested in the truth and the actual discussion about why FSI is the Min/Max racial for Shamans: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671204&postcount=311

[Troxx]

and DSM copy/pasting his summaries “to help all the new guys out there”

Called it!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Called it!

Yes you did! It doesn't help any of your existing points, however. You are still losing the debate. Using trolling, insults, fallacious arguments, and fake medical diagnoses to try and win a debate is still invalid, and still makes you look bad.

[Toxigen]

Given the number of hours an average player will spend simply getting to 60 still makes regen better.

Sorry not sorry.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Given the number of hours an average player will spend simply getting to 60 still makes regen better.

Sorry not sorry.

Everybody agrees Regen is better while leveling. I've said the same thing for years, including writing it in my guide.

Again, this is irrelevant to Min/Max. Min/Max looks at the endgame, when you have a complete character. There are also plenty of people who have played their level 60 character longer than the time it took them to level to 60.

FSI is still the Min/Max option objectively speaking based on all the evidence thus far. Talking about non-Min/Max scenarios like leveling is irrelevant to the Min/Max discussion.

[Jimjam]

Having friends to help out at 60 is min max, not soloing. Soloing is to gamestyle as barbarian is to race. Cute if you're into that kind of thing, but there are better efficiency choices.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Having friends to help out at 60 is min max, not soloing. Soloing is to gamestyle as barbarian is to race. Cute if you're into that kind of thing, but there are better efficiency choices.

Assuming FSI only works during soloing is incorrect. I often tank in single group scenarios if we don't have a dedicated tank. Torporing yourself instead of the Monk in a Monk/Shaman duo allows the Monk to maximize their DPS, as a simple example.

FSI also works in raids, as Shamans use https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh to try and get the initial slow on resistant mobs sooner.

Assuming Regen is better in groups/raids is also incorrect. Groups often allow individual group members to spend less HP/Mana in any given scenario. This means you are more likely to be at full HP/Mana, and less likely to be using passive regeneration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq39ybDWx-k - Even when buffing 10 people in a row during a raid, Regen is only giving you 30 seconds of recovery time after the buff session, which isn't going to help the raid.

The reality is racials matter most while soloing. Group members provide a much larger boost to your efficiency than any racial. Shamans are a class that solo, group, and raid equally well. Most players who make Torpor Shamans will do some soloing. This is because people make classes like Shamans or Enchanters because you get one character that can do everything, depending on how much time you have to play, and group/raid availability.

[Jimjam]

30 seconds is a lot of time for things to go wrong in a raid.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

30 seconds is a lot of time for things to go wrong in a raid.

Except anytime a pull is live you would already be at full HP/Mana when playing properly, and the raid is working properly.

Raids do not do buff sessions extremely close to an important pull. If you are in a situation where the raid must fast pull an important mob and you need to be at full HP/Mana, you don't do the buff session hehe.

I show buff sessions to show where Regen would provide the largest bonus, which is still nothing because of what I said above.

[Troxx]

Regen provides benefit 100% of the time you are not 100% hp

-FSI provides 0 benefit anytime you are not actively being hit by a mob.
-The benefit is small when you are being hit at baseline and even smaller if the mob is slowed.
-The benefit is also only present when a bash lands (25% every 8 seconds mob unslowed) and that landed bash results in a stun (25% of landed bashes).

0.25 x 0.25 = 0.0625 = 6.25% chance every 8 seconds UNSLOWED

For the bash to even matter at all it has to land while you are casting a spell

***And beyond that, for it to “actually matter” it has to happen at a moment in time that the interruption had a meaningful outcome on success vs failure***

Being stunned is annoying but it has to *** to really mean anything at all.

Napkin math is cute but the second you start to apply real world filters and activate that abstract thinking part of your brain, you realize quickly that the likelihood of all that happening is exceedingly low.

Compared to 100% benefit 100% of the time you’re not 100% health for the entire life of your character on a class that turns hp into mana.

[Naethyn]

We cannot declare another race bis because then all the bad players who think they are min maxing will start to play that like ogre warriors and iksar monks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Regen provides benefit 100% of the time you are not 100% hp

-FSI provides 0 benefit anytime you are not actively being hit by a mob.
-The benefit is small when you are being hit at baseline and even smaller if the mob is slowed.
-The benefit is also only present when a bash lands (25% every 8 seconds mob unslowed) and that landed bash results in a stun (25% of landed bashes).

0.25 x 0.25 = 0.0625 = 6.25% chance every 8 seconds UNSLOWED

For the bash to even matter at all it has to land while you are casting a spell

***And beyond that, for it to “actually matter” it has to happen at a moment in time that the interruption had a meaningful outcome on success vs failure***

Being stunned is annoying but it has to *** to really mean anything at all.

Napkin math is cute but the second you start to apply real world filters and activate that abstract thinking part of your brain, you realize quickly that the likelihood of all that happening is exceedingly low.

Compared to 100% benefit 100% of the time you’re not 100% health for the entire life of your character on a class that turns hp into mana.


Rehashing points that have been disproven with hard evidence or shown to be irrelevant will not help you.

Claiming all math is irrelevant is nonsense.

Accusing people of being autistic just makes you look bad.

For people interested in facts and real data, please see this post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671204&postcount=311

[Jimjam]

Please show your proof that FSI provides benefit when you aren't being hit by a mob? That is a really interesting claim.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Please show your proof that FSI provides benefit when you aren't being hit by a mob? That is a really interesting claim.

I never said FSI provides benefit while not getting hit. Please stop making stuff up. Regen also provides no benefit when at 100% HP. That was why I said "shown to be irrelevant" in my previous post. I don't need to keep rebutting Troxx's points line by line, I've done it so many times already.

The facts about when racials activate do not elevate one racial over the other. You look at what benefits are being provided when they are active. Regen's benefit is much smaller, which is why FSI wins out. You get more use out of FSI when it is active than Regen on a Torpor Shaman. I have plenty of evidence to back this up, which has yet to be disproven.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671204&postcount=311

[Troxx]

Unless there’s a lot of down time, I don’t bother keeping my health fully 100% just for the sake of being 100% hp. Capitalizing on that continuous regen means I literally do not have to torpor as often or canni back the mana spent from casting said torpor.

If I’m casually soloing, why bother. Let the regen do its thing and save some torpor casts (mana cost and time spent casting). It’s mana that could be spent on buffs, debuffs, dotting, etc. It’s the same with grouping 99% of the time. I’ll canni to keep the spells rolling but unless it’s dangerous to do so, I won’t bother with torpor until I know I will get the full scope of the heal and still be under 100%.

For routine play I spend most of my time not at 100% health.

If I have nothing better to do with my time? No spells to cast or other actions to take? Well … there is value in doing nothing! Sit my fat ass down and double my regen or get some med ticks in. Shamans (like bards) can be a very busy, very high APM class to play. There is value in just giving yourself a break.

The only times I’m OCD about staying topped off fully and clicking furiously with super high APM is when I’m soloing something challenging or my group/raid’s needs demand it.

Best lesson I learned as a leveling troll shaman? Never (ever) be full health unless you’re also full mana. Never be full mana if there is a buff you could refresh now (while full) vs waiting 5 minutes for it to drop. I also took pride in never making my melees have to ask for a haste.

Full health = waste, turn it into mana
Full mana = waste - translate it into something better

I honestly liked to tread water around 80% health and mana. If it climbed much above that it was generally because we had a lot of unexpected down time.

That emphasis changed obviously with torpor as playing efficiently became less important, but I digress.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Unless there’s a lot of down time, I don’t bother keeping my health fully 100% just for the sake of being 100% hp. Capitalizing on that continuous regen means I literally do not have to torpor as often or canni back the mana spent from casting said torpor.

If I’m casually soloing, why bother. Let the regen do its thing and save some torpor casts (mana cost and time spent casting). It’s mana that could be spent on buffs, debuffs, dotting, etc. It’s the same with grouping 99% of the time. I’ll canni to keep the spells rolling but unless it’s dangerous to do so, I won’t bother with torpor until I know I will get the full scope of the heal and still be under 100%.

For routine play I spend most of my time not at 100% health.

If I have nothing better to do with my time? No spells to cast or other actions to take? Well … there is value in doing nothing! Sit my fat ass down and double my regen or get some med ticks in. Shamans (like bards) can be a very busy, very high APM class to play. There is value in just giving yourself a break.

The only times I’m OCD about staying topped off fully and clicking furiously with super high APM is when I’m soloing something challenging or my group/raid’s needs demand it.


Then you are playing inefficiently. There is nothing wrong with that. This is a game, play it how you want! But playing inefficiently is not Min/Max, so it is irrelevant to the topic of Min/Maxing. Iksar/Troll Regen is not Min/Max simply because you are too lazy to Torpor/Cannibalize.


I honestly liked to tread water around 80% health and mana. If it climbed much above that it was generally because we had a lot of unexpected down time.


This is bad advice, because you die quickly at level 60 when in dangerous zones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Torporing takes 3 minutes or less to get back to full HP/Mana. Running around a zone like WW at 80% HP to justify your racial choice is just reckless, and will end up costing you more time when you need to make a corpse run.

Everybody agrees that Regen is better before Torpor. Everybody agrees you want to keep passive regeneration active before you get Torpor. That is not relevant to Min/Max discussions, where you have Torpor.

[Troxx]

Min/max for shaman is being 60 and having torpor. Once you have accomplished that you can get anything done even in scrub gear like mine. We have established that there is nothing an ogre or troll shaman can do that a barbarian can’t.

That leaves you with a choice between fashion quest (most important!) and what provided the best benefit both currently and along the way (1-59 and pre torpor).

The answer is clear: regen

The benefit is real.
Measurable.
Impactful.
At all levels and in all circumstances.
Superior before torpor and still nice after it.

[Penish]

dsm still goin full retard, cool times go 2024

[Troxx]

This is bad advice, because you die quickly at level 60 when in dangerous zones. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc - Torporing takes 3 minutes or less to get back to full HP/Mana. Running around a zone like WW at 80% HP just to try and justify your racial choice is just reckless, and will end up costing you more time when you need to make a corpse run.

Dude I said as a LEVELING SHAMAN. Not as a 60 shaman doing a hard solo kill.

Learn to fucking read. I addressed that scenario earlier in that post.

Jesus Christ

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Dude I said as a LEVELING SHAMAN. Not as a 60 shaman doing a hard solo kill.

Learn to fucking read. I addressed that scenario earlier in that post.

Jesus Christ

I already agreed that Regen is better while leveling:


Everybody agrees that Regen is better before Torpor. Everybody agrees you want to keep passive regeneration active before you get Torpor. That is not relevant to Min/Max discussions, where you have Torpor.

You keep talking off topic about leveling a Shaman in a Min/Max discussion. Leveling has nothing to do with what racial is objectively the best from a Min/Max perspective.

Once you have accomplished that you can get anything done even in scrub gear like mine. We have established that there is nothing an ogre or troll shaman can do that a barbarian can’t.


Irrelevant to the Min/Max discussion too. You can still determine which racial is objectively the best, with the understanding that it is not necessary.

Min/max for shaman is being 60 and having torpor.

Correct. This is not a level 50 Shaman who is still leveling.

[Troxx]

Most of my post was about playing before torpor man. That efficient style of play needed when buffs need buffing, heals need healing, mobs need slowed, and juggling all those demands had us all canni-dancing to squeeze out every bit from med ticks we managed to catch.

You pointed out that being 80% health is dangerous and cited WW as an example (presume you’re talking dragon hunting)? That falls into the category of the times it’s important to be OCD I already addressed. If the situation calls for it - I’m making sure I’m topped off.

For grouping? Soloing? Not dangerous stuff? Being at 100/100 is not more efficient. It’s literally textbook less efficient.

Efficiency is a combination of getting stuff done and how hard you have to work to get that stuff done. Even at 60 if I hover 80/80 and you hover 100/100, we’re both going get the same shit done. You’re going to cast just as many buffs, debuffs, cc , and damaging spells as I am. I canni to keep up with the demands of the tempo while maintaining a big ass buffer for the oh crap moments.

The difference is that while the shaman who’s OCD about staying 100 will have a ton more actions per minute. Not 100% health? Oh fuck I gotta torpor. Now I gotta canni that mana back to be 100 again. Not 100% mana? Oh fuck must canni to full, torpor, then canni that mana back to 100?

Me? I’m content to sit below 100% mana as long as I have a buffer way larger than the situation calls for from an emergency standpoint. Not 100% health? Cool! As long as I’m not at risk from being lower than the safety threshold the situation calls for - I’m sipping away at the tasty racial regen and the regen spell, bard song or other regen passively rolling in.

That literally IS efficient play. You’re getting the same job done with a whole hell of a lot less click click click click click click clicking it sounds like you’re advocating for.

It’s not like you’re casting more spells than I am productively, you’re just casting more spells. When was the last time you simmered down and had a relaxed experience? Do you even bother to sit anymore?

You titrate your level of APM to what the situation calls for.

Then again maybe that’s what an Ogre without racial regen has to do to keep up?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Most of my post was about playing before torpor man.

Min/max for shaman is being 60 and having torpor.

This is one big reason why your argument falls apart. You know what Min/Max is, and keep discussing leveling lol. You contradict yourself.

The rest of your post is just your preference on how you like to play. Nothing wrong with that, but it isn't Min/Max. If you just want to post your opinion, that is fine. But it isn't any evidence that supports Regen being better than FSI objectively speaking from a Min/Max perspective. Being at 100% HP/Mana out of combat is more efficient, because you are ready for anything that happens, especially when in raids or dangerous zones. It's quite easy to get to 100% HP/Mana with Torpor.

EDIT: Also, There was another thread where we already discussed APM on a Shaman. Iksar/Troll Regen saved around 1 APM if I recall right. It wasn't much more than that. Instead of 20 APM you did 19 APM I think, which isn't that much to begin with. I can dig up the post at some point if anyone is interested.

[bcbrown]

We cannot declare another race bis because then all the bad players who think they are min maxing will start to play that like ogre warriors and iksar monks.

This is the best point made yet.

I'd be upset too if a barbarian was the best shaman and I was really into shaman.

This also didn't get nearly enough love.

[Toxigen]

honestly the real argument for ogre is tuna ogre wall...and if you dont care about that basically every other race is better because aesthetics matter

thats about it

[DeathsSilkyMist]

honestly the real argument for ogre is tuna ogre wall...and if you dont care about that basically every other race is better because aesthetics matter

thats about it

Not everybody cares about Min/Max, which is perfectly fine. If you prefer fashion over function, racial choice doesn't matter. If you want to Min/Max and prefer function over fashion, Ogre is the Min/Max choice for Shamans.

It's really that simple. Let people know the facts so they can decide what they want to do.

[Troxx]

honestly the real argument for ogre is tuna ogre wall...and if you dont care about that basically every other race is better because aesthetics matter

thats about it

Hehe that reminds of a Luclin encounter

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=7230

Bear in mind we were all noobs then and the game wasn’t all figured out and online resources were anything but complete. He would blind and knock back the tank. You could get behind him and he’d fling you into a little wall there but sometimes you would get tossed beyond it.

The actual intended strategy was to keep curing the blind off the tank so they could reposition but we were light on priests. We had never read about it being done (ie the tunare strat) but we got the bright idea to just pile all the Ogres up in front of the wall and have the tank back dey ass up into the Ogres.

Made the encounter trivial. Ignore curing the tank and just plow it into the ground.

Fun times. We felt like geniuses.

[skulldudes]

1 + 2 / fart + FSI - regen^ butt-scratching idle animations (square root of negative toenails)@20%parity - 3.14 + tunare's sweaty shoe to the cosine'th power = my opinions are objective fact you're all equally wrong about everything you've ever stated or even thought about

[Jimjam]

honestly the real argument for ogre is tuna ogre wall...and if you dont care about that basically every other race is better because aesthetics matter

thats about it

Ogre wall 100% the only racial that consistently makes or breaks raids, except maybe stealth skilled clerics and gnome sized coth.

[MossyG]

Jesus 36 pages… What happened!?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Jesus 36 pages… What happened!?

Trolls unfortunately. Posters like Troxx make a habit of bloating threads with silly gifs, insults, fake medical diagnoses, false information, and off topic posts. I try to get them to stop, but nobody else seems interested in helping call out the trolls. Other trolls like to pile on too.

[Troxx]

DSM posts 145
Troxx: 59 (as of now)

I probably the 2nd most posts and you have nearly 3x that

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM posts 145
Troxx: 59 (as of now)

I probably the 2nd most posts and you have nearly 3x that

Multiple posters are responding to me. This argument makes no sense. I am not triple posting against a single post, and this is trivial to prove. If 10 people respond to a single poster, that single poster will have more posts if they reply to multiple people. It's basic math. The response posts are simply distributed across different posters.

You have many troll posts in this thread alone, regardless of your total post count. There is no excuse. You are causing thread bloat, as are other trolls who pile on.

[Troxx]

At the end of the day I guess I should be thankful that in this thread we are actually discussing something more interesting and more relevant. Here we are discussing 2 racial abilities that both have actual value to a class.

Much better than discussing:

-Whether a shaman can dps anywhere close to a mage (they can't)
-Whether 150 str is enough for a monk/sk and beyond doesn't matter (it isn't enough for a monk and it does matter vs dumping points into int on a sk that is limited by mana regeneration, not mana pool)
-Whether a tank should smash taunt obsessively every time its up (they shouldn't)

And all the other silly shit we've debated in DSM threads.

This thread is actually relevant and there are legitimate points to be had on both sides (though disagreement exists on the relative value of each).

Perhaps the best DSM thread so far?

[bcbrown]

Jesus 36 pages… What happened!?

The original question was fully answered in the first two responses, with no disagreements. In the absence of anything else to do, the p99 forums turned to their favorite pastime, which is yelling at each other fruitlessly over old grudges. You will find no futher information relevant to your question in the preceding 36 pages, but if you have some downtime while leveling your SK, you may find some enjoyment in reading all the yelling, if you enjoy that sort of thing.

Enjoy your Iksar shaman!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This thread is actually relevant and there are legitimate points to be had on both sides (though disagreement exists on the relative value of each).


Agreed! Troxx did have a few serious posts in this thread, so I do appreciate that. Thank you!

I cannot let you get away with quickly posting nonsense in an attempt to discredit other posters, however.


-Whether a shaman can dps anywhere close to a mage (they can't)
-Whether 150 str is enough for a monk/sk and beyond doesn't matter (it isn't enough for a monk and it does matter vs dumping points into int on a sk that is limited by mana regeneration, not mana pool)
-Whether a tank should smash taunt obsessively every time its up (they shouldn't)


These are all strawmen perpetuated by trolls when they cannot win debates. They are distortions of my arguments, and this is trivial to prove with the post history.

Unfortunately Troxx often times uses strawmen in an attempt to discredit other posters when he cannot win a debate legitimately.

My accusations of Troxx trolling/bloating threads has factual merit. I can reference examples from this very thread:


https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670497&postcount=182 - fake medical diagnosis.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670950&postcount=240 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670390&postcount=156 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670385&postcount=151 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670233&postcount=100 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3669799&postcount=38 - Silly gif


If Troxx wants to stop trolling and posting strawmen about other posters, I would be happy to stop calling him a troll. Everybody deserves a second chance.

[bcbrown]

Did you delete your post and then repost it to avoid the little "last edited" message at the bottom?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Did you delete your post and then repost it to avoid the little "last edited" message at the bottom?

No. Your assumption about why I did it is quite telling though. I am not sure why you are spending your time making posts like this. It just provides more evidence you are simply here to troll and bloat the thread. I have no problem with having proper discussions with you when you choose not to troll. Changing your signature to reference a debate you were frustrated over is not a very good way to try and pretend not to be biased.

[bcbrown]

Must be a weird glitch in the bulletin software then...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Must be a weird glitch in the bulletin software then...

I am perfectly fine with people seeing the content of the previous post. It is clear you don't understand why I reposted it, due to your biases against me.

The strange thing is why you bothered screenshotting it just to repost it. It just makes you look like a desperate troll who is feverishly refreshing this thread and filling folders with screenshots in an attempt to find any "gotcha" you can. This is because you cannot win the debate legitimately.

I will never understand why people who do this think it makes them look good. It doesn't. It just provides more evidence of your bias against me, and evidence that you are a troll.

[bcbrown]

Oh I misunderstood. I thought you said you didn't delete and repost, but you actually said that the reason you deleted and reposted wasn't the reason I assumed.

Sorry for the confusion!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Oh I misunderstood. I thought you said you didn't delete and repost, but you actually said that the reason you deleted and reposted wasn't the reason I assumed.

Sorry for the confusion!

No worries. You still inadvertently admitted to randomly taking screenshots of my posts to save for later. You couldn't have known I would have deleted and reposted my post.

This is really weird, and it doesn't make you look good at all. If anything, it is solid proof you are trying to troll me.

If you want to win a debate, I advise you do not spend your time refreshing a thread obsessively while taking screenshots of other people's posts. Spend your time crafting a proper argument with logic and evidence. So far your arguments have been quite lacking.

[Troxx]

https://media.tenor.com/Zn44t0HYm30AAAAM/ryan-gosling-laugh.gif

Oh DSM …

You are a boundless fount of endless entertainment

[bcbrown]

Actually, Safari maintains history of previously viewed pages in memory, so I just hit the back button a couple times. I kinda-intentionally didn't screenshot the entire post because I don't care about the actual changes in the post itself, I was just curious about the timestamps.

Having spent 5 years as a software tester, I've developed an eye for noticing details around how software works, and possible bugs. Time handling is notoriously buggy. I've noticed previously that sometimes the little "edited by..." message would appear and disappear, and reordering of the last couple posts.

When you said "No", I took you at your word, and chalked it up to an interesting little bug.

Am I refreshing this thread obsessively? Well, I do find the discussion interesting and entertaining. Every few minutes I take a break from my actual work to see if there's any new posts, as a momentary diversion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Actually, Safari maintains history of previously viewed pages in memory, so I just hit the back button a couple times. I kinda-intentionally didn't screenshot the entire post because I don't care about the actual changes in the post itself, I was just curious about the timestamps.

Having spent 5 years as a software tester, I've developed an eye for noticing details around how software works, and possible bugs. Time handling is notoriously buggy. I've noticed previously that sometimes the little "edited by..." message would appear and disappear, and reordering of the last couple posts.

When you said "No", I took you at your word, and chalked it up to an interesting little bug.

Am I refreshing this thread obsessively? Well, I do find the discussion interesting and entertaining. Every few minutes I take a break from my actual work to see if there's any new posts, as a momentary diversion.

Sure. That is obviously what happened :rolleyes: . As I said, I would advise you spend less time screenshotting peoples posts and trying to figure out how to troll and bloat threads, and more time trying to craft a proper argument. I am disappointed by your math mistakes thus far for someone who claims to be well versed in the subject.

[bcbrown]

You think I intentionally ahead of time took a screenshot of half a post? If you wish, you can check the file name of the attachment - it's the timestamp of when I took the screenshot.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You think I intentionally ahead of time took a screenshot of half a post? If you wish, you can check the file name of the attachment - it's the timestamp of when I took the screenshot.

I do not pretend to understand why people do weird things like randomly screenshotting forum posts for later. I simply advise that you stop doing it. Stick to the discussion at hand instead of bloating threads with nonsense. You chose to post that image, I didn't force you.

[Troxx]

https://38.media.tumblr.com/805a772588967891944b6e6fd8ce8a3e/tumblr_nmdx2lsxfF1urugolo1_400.gif

Bcbrown, you are an extraordinarily patient person. I’d apologize on his behalf for his behavior but I am suspicious you are nearly as amused as I am at this point.

This is not normal behavior from a typical humans_kinds …

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Bcbrown, you are an extraordinarily patient person. I’d apologize in his behalf for his behavior but I am suspicious you are nearly as amused as I am at this point.

This is not normal behavior from a typical human kinds.

I am not sure why Troxx keeps pretending to be mature here. He seems to forget his own childish posts:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=182 - fake medical diagnosis.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=240 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=156 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=151 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=100 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...9&postcount=38 - Silly gif

It is obvious Troxx is just continuing his trend of attempting to discredit people when he cannot win a debate legitimately. He cannot "apologize on another's behalf", when Troxx is doing what he is accusing others of. If you want to stop being a troll and become a normal poster again, just stop this nonsense.

I reposted what I said to try and help Troxx out by not painting him quite so negatively. But Troxx doesn't seem interested in looking like anything other than a troll. As long as Troxx continues to troll, he will be called out for it.

[Troxx]

I don’t think DSM has even noticed my Location.

(Shhhhh … look left …)

It’s been that way for ages. He caught your signature … missed the obvious

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don’t think DSM has even noticed my Location.

(Shhhhh … look left …)

It’s been that way for ages. He caught your signature … missed the obvious

You know that someone has utterly lost a debate when they have to change their signature or personal information to try and insult somebody else. Continuing to discredit yourself in this manner is not hurting me, or helping you.

[bcbrown]

I reposted what I said to try and help Troxx out by not painting him quite so negatively. But Troxx doesn't seem interested in looking like anything other than a troll.

That is a laudable reason. Thank you for doing what you can to keep this on topic, I truly appreciate it.

If we all tried a little harder to stay on topic and not cast aspersions on each other, this forum would be a better place. I know I am not without fault here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That is a laudable reason. Thank you for doing what you can to keep this on topic, I truly appreciate it.

If we all tried a little harder to stay on topic and not cast aspersions on each other, this forum would be a better place. I know I am not without fault here.

Agreed!

[Troxx]

https://media3.giphy.com/media/kWMI4jZKpgTJloYPO7/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952x6z8r6qamuszb0meat1iryehe25xd ur2qxoebka1&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g

[Troxx]

lack of JBB wont hinder any solo challenges its not needed for anything at 60 w/ a full spell kit

its great for leveling but you're better off finding a geared monk or warrior to duo with and not ever clicking it anyway

But yes, back on topic … the very first response to this thread is the correct answer to the actual question. Toxigen is right almost every single time he posts.

JBB is a neat tool for power leveling yourself within a fairly narrow level range. It is not needed to function as a good shaman beyond that one niche. My level 60 shaman sold his a long time ago after the novelty (and level range for the quick leveling) were exhausted. This was well before level 60. I have no desire to ever have or buy another one and if I won one in a group I would promptly sell it.

Enjoy the iksar shaman. You aren’t missing out on much not being able to use this item. It’s a cute toy. No more, no less.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But yes, back on topic … the very first response to this thread is the correct answer to the actual question. Toxigen is right almost every single time he posts.

JBB is a neat tool for power leveling yourself within a fairly narrow level range. It is not needed to function as a good shaman beyond that one niche. My level 60 shaman sold his a long time ago after the novelty (and level range for the quick leveling) were exhausted. This was well before level 60. I have no desire to ever have or buy another one and if I won one in a group I would promptly sell it.

Enjoy the iksar shaman. You aren’t missing out on much not being able to use this item. It’s a cute toy. No more, no less.

Again, you are incorrect about JBB being unable to power level you to 60. It's the best tool for leveling from 45-60 if you don't have Epic. Please stop posting false information like this. This is trivial to disprove, and you are just hurting new players. Why do you keep doing this?

[Duik]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist View Post
I reposted what I said to try and help Troxx out by not painting him quite so negatively. But Troxx doesn't seem interested in looking like anything other than a troll

Fuck yeah, Deleting Sarcastic Messages will help save poor Troxxy woxxy from the bad internets finking badly of him.

And lolocaust @ Dont Stalk Me thinking bcbrown takes constant screenies to "catch him out" on post edits.
Also thays pretty cool how safari does that. Any browser based on the safari webkit do ot as well? Imma look that shit up.

[Troxx]

lack of JBB wont hinder any solo challenges its not needed for anything at 60 w/ a full spell kit

its great for leveling but you're better off finding a geared monk or warrior to duo with and not ever clicking it anyway

https://media3.giphy.com/media/3og0IN4ixNy3NrB4w8/giphy.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

lack of JBB wont hinder any solo challenges its not needed for anything at 60 w/ a full spell kit

its great for leveling but you're better off finding a geared monk or warrior to duo with and not ever clicking it anyway

Thank you for admitting you were wrong! Toxigen admits JBB is great for leveling, and does not claim it is only good for levels 45-51. Everybody already agrees JBB isn't necessary for endgame content, but it is still quite useful.

Grouping while leveling is a great option too! But for people who want to solo, JBB is the best leveling tool you can get if you don't have Epic. It will take you from 45-60 faster than not using it while soloing.

[Duik]

Looked up Safari Browser on my android device.
I was offered microshaft edge A.I browser#

I know rhis os off topic but you lot are fuckin batshit crazy arsed motherfuckers who needa rest ya im right no im right no im right no im right bullshit.

Yours says sweet. His says dude.
Wont someone think of the baby iksar shaman who feel confused!

[Troxx]

And lolocaust @ Dont Stalk Me thinking bcbrown takes constant screenies to "catch him out" on post edits. .

To be fair, I have never seen anyone else who edits their posts nearly as much as DSM. In DSM threads, if you bother to look, you’ll see a shockingly high percentage of his posts will show that they are edited. Most of these are edited repeatedly.

I will admit that I have, on occasion when bored, sat there and refreshed periodically to see how many times he will edit a single post. Highest I think I’ve seen was 7 edits on a single post but I’m pretty sure he has done more than that. Sometimes the edits are little.

Solution:

-actually think about what you want to say
-type it once
-proof read it for errors
-grow some balls and commit to posting it once

[Troxx]

Thank you for admitting you were wrong! Toxigen admits JBB is great for leveling, and does not claim it is only good for levels 45-51. Everybody already agrees JBB isn't necessary for endgame content, but it is still quite useful.

Grouping while leveling is a great option too! But for people who want to solo, JBB is the best leveling tool you can get if you don't have Epic. It will take you from 45-60 faster than not using it while soloing.

lack of JBB wont hinder any solo challenges its not needed for anything at 60 w/ a full spell kit

its great for leveling but you're better off finding a geared monk or warrior to duo with and not ever clicking it anyway

Reading comprehension

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Reading comprehension

Indeed, you missed the second paragraph that you quoted from me. Thanks again for admitting you were wrong about JBB.

I wouldn't need to edit posts if people like yourself didn't constantly lie about what I say. Being as clear as possible is a necessity when dealing with trolls.

The solution is for you to stop trolling and lying.

[Duik]

Today, 03:13 PM
DeathsSilkyMist DeathsSilkyMist is online now
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Last edited by DeathsSilkyMist; Today at 03:16 PM..

Writing at its finest.
In other, more important news the Atom text editor/development tool is being sunsetted.
Damn it. Cloud based tools are winning.

Also.
DRY. Dont Repeat Yourself is a good programming paradigm also works IRL.

Write Once Run Everywhere although being a pipe dream in reality, still is also good advice.

[Troxx]

Most people play online multiplayer games to … play online with others, not to play with themselves. As a shaman, finding a buddy to duo with is far more enjoyable and is gonna result in better xp to boot. Who knows … you might even make a friend! (*gasp)

JBB is a cute toy for power-leveling yourself for a couple of levels.

OP isn’t missing out on anything significant being an iksar. In fact, as was pointed out in the first few pages it actually opens up some unique clickies that can add completely unique ways to play the class.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Most people play online multiplayer games to … play online with others, not to play with themselves. As a shaman, finding a buddy to duo with is far more enjoyable and is gonna result in better xp to boot. Who knows … you might even make a friend! (*gasp)

JBB is a cute toy for power-leveling yourself for a couple of levels.

OP isn’t missing out on anything significant being an iksar. In fact, as was pointed out in the first few pages it actually opens up some unique clickies that can add completely unique ways to play the class.

Again, telling false information about JBB is actively hurting new players looking for information on the game. It is easy to prove you wrong here. Please stop.

Your preference on grouping is irrelevant to if JBB is a good soloing tool, which it is. You can't force people to group or solo. Just give them the correct information and let them decide.

[Jimjam]

I also end up editing my posts a bunch and will often delete and repost, particularly if I want to quote a bunch of posts but avoid multiposting. I get that it is frustrating to people that want to nitpick wording, but I think it is better that the wording gets revised for clarity as long as the theme/meaning of the post remain.

[sajbert]

So lets summarize,

- Race doesn't affect what you can solo once 60 with a full spellbook and gear.
- Iksar and Troll are better in groups and raids where the shaman needn't facetank.
- Racial regen is overshadowed by Torpor when cast on oneself and amounts to a relatively small amount of healing done of the course of a solo fight.
- Ogre FSI can help prevent streaks of bad luck that could result in the death of a Shaman as well as add to player comfort overall, particularly useful in solo fights.
- Ogres are the worst race for leveling.
- JBB is amazing for leveling and later becomes an optional item that some shamans enjoy using but does not change what you can and can't solo at 60 with Torpor.
- No one has demonstrated the actual value of Iksar AC (?)

[Toxigen]

Toxigen is right almost every single time he posts.



ty bby

[Troxx]

ty bby

https://media1.tenor.com/m/1FzZvWpmltoAAAAC/shaquille-shaq-kiss.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

- Race doesn't affect what you can solo once 60 with a full spellbook and gear.


Correct.


- Iksar and Troll are better in groups and raids where the shaman needn't facetank.


This is a bit too simplistic. Iksar/Troll regeneration is often used less in groups/raids, as it is easier to manage HP/Mana, and you may have Clarity, Bard songs, etc. This means more time at 100% HP. Even when you aren't tanking normally, that doesn't mean you will never get hit, or need to occasionally get into melee range of a mob. Belly casters are a simple example. Using https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh to slow resistant mobs faster is another. Slowing mobs also generates hate, which can cause them to agro you.


- Racial regen is overshadowed by Torpor when cast on oneself and amounts to a relatively small amount of healing done of the course of a solo fight.


Iksar/Troll regeneration is overshadowed by Torpor in all scenarios, solo, group, and raid. No matter what you are doing, 4800 HP per hour is the equivalent of 3-4 Torpors. Casting 3-4 less Torpors per hour is saving 1.5 to 2 minutes of recovery time. Since Torpor Shamans are at 100% HP/Mana out of combat, these numbers are realistically lower, as you are generally not getting the full 4800 HP per hour.


- Ogre FSI can help prevent streaks of bad luck that could result in the death of a Shaman as well as add to player comfort overall, particularly useful in solo fights.


Correct. FSI is still useful in group and raid scenarios too. All racials are most useful when soloing.


- Ogres are the worst race for leveling.


Ogres don't have Regen or an XP bonus, this is true. Saying they are the "worst" at leveling is a bit misleading, as a naked Ogre with JBB would probably still get to 60 faster than a naked Iksar without JBB. JBB is saving a lot more mana per hour while leveling than what you can cannibalize from Iksar/Troll Regen. Levels 50-60 generally take longer than levels 1-50 too. If the player in question could twink their Shaman with Epic, then yes Ogres would be the slowest to reach 60. Otherwise Iksar is the slowest at leveling due to lack of JBB.


- JBB is amazing for leveling and later becomes an optional item that some shamans enjoy using but does not change what you can and can't solo at 60 with Torpor.


Correct. If you aren't an Iksar, you should have JBB at 60 if you can afford it. It helps in a number of scenarios even at 60.


- No one has demonstrated the actual value of Iksar AC (?)

Indeed. I don't think anybody has done a long term experiment comparing melee damage taken on an Iksar vs non iksar with the exact same gear, AGI, and level.

[Danth]

There were a handful of iksar vs non-iksar damge intake trials (albeit, with tanks, not shamans) run back when P99 was in Kunark, but I don't know of any being done post-Velious. Since AC/mitigation was revamped for Velious, the old data is thus no longer relevant. Overall the community doesn't care all that much; it's kind of a niche question. Most high-end solo/smallmans are charm-based these days, and raid tanks tend to gear for HP (when there's a choice) since the nature of raid heal chains favors that style of gearing in this game.

We know from experience the iksar's presumed advantage in that area is not sufficient for them to do anything a non-iksar shaman cannot do, or even have enough of an advantage that anyone's even particularly noticed it yet in going on ~9 years of Velious on P1999. Racial regeneration, access to Jaundiced bracer, bash immunity, even slam, all those are much more noticeable.

[Troxx]

JBB is undeniably awesome for leveling at 45 when you can start clicking it. It remains overpowered through until the early 50s. It starts to fall off mid50s and becomes less and less relevant the higher you get. Mob hp goes up. Dots reach a point where they start to shine. The click is long and by choosing to click it vs taking other approaches you end up losing a lot of potential mana (med ticks) extra regen (sitting especially on a troll iksar is very impactful) … lots of issues.

By the mid 50s and before epic, letting dog dog tank and using dots and medding with regen (spell and racial) rolling was quicker and more efficient. The best choice was always just grabbing a melee partner.

But yeah from 45-51 solo JBB xp was better than any potential duo I had

[Troxx]

This is a bit too simplistic. Iksar/Troll regeneration is often used less in groups/raids, as it is easier to manage HP/Mana, and you may have Clarity, Bard songs, etc. This means more time at 100% HP

Funny how a shaman who’s never experienced racial regen likes to comment on how racial is “used less” in any given scenario.

1-59 you never should be full health when things are happening. If you’re full health, you’re converting it to mana. If you’re full mana, you should be doing something with that mana.

So much for that group argument.

Raids? Unless you are specifically prepped and ready for an immediate boss fight there’s always something productive you can be doing with your mana. And if you’re not full mana you shouldn’t be just sitting at full health.

Then again i consider sitting at full health to be wasted potential .. ya know … cause of innate regen.

[Jimjam]

I know DSM is mindful of being prepared to give any that ask a full compliment of buffs, he is very good on that aspect, I’m sure his current guild mates can corroborate that.

That does seem an outlier though - often shamans will be short on mana for full buffs - especially in situations where people are dieing and rebuffing and moving through lots of targets quickly. Often toons will need to settle for fos and stamina only even when they’d prefer a bit more.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Funny how a shaman who’s never experienced racial regen likes to comment on how racial is “used less” in any given scenario.


I have a 60 Troll and a 52 Iksar, but somehow you believe I've never experience racial regen. You also seem to forget that Iksar/Troll Regen is 100% quantifiable at any period of time. You really need to spend a bit more time thinking before posting.


1-59 you never should be full health when things are happening. If you’re full health, you’re converting it to mana. If you’re full mana, you should be doing something with that mana.


I agree you should never be at full health before Torpor. We aren't discussing pre-Torpor in Min/Max scenarios. Remember your own words:


Min/max for shaman is being 60 and having torpor.


---


Raids? Unless you are specifically prepped and ready for an immediate boss fight there’s always something productive you can be doing with your mana. And if you’re not full mana you shouldn’t be just sitting at full health.

Then again i consider sitting at full health to be wasted potential .. ya know … cause of innate regen.

As for raids, you should be at 100% HP/Mana any time there is nothing going on, so you can be ready. There is no reason to be sitting AFK at 50% HP/Mana if you want to be a productive member of said raid.


By the mid 50s and before epic, letting dog dog tank and using dots and medding with regen (spell and racial) rolling was quicker and more efficient.

This is not more efficient, and is trivial to disprove with basic math. You are going to need to show us precisely what strategy you are using, so we can compare it to JBB. The only person who has a lack of experience is yourself. You sold your JBB 50+, meaning you don't know what it feels like to use JBB 50+ compared to not using it. Using your own logic of "you didn't experience it, therefore how could you know?", there is no reason for you to keep making the "JBB is only good from 45-51" claim. You only say this because you didn't have JBB after 51 lol.

I know DSM is mindful of being prepared to give any that ask a full compliment of buffs, he is very good on that aspect, I’m sure his current guild mates can corroborate that.

Thanks!


That does seem an outlier though - often shamans will be short on mana for full buffs - especially in situations where people are dieing and rebuffing and moving through lots of targets quickly. Often toons will need to settle for fos and stamina only even when they’d prefer a bit more.

Agreed, there are scenarios where a raid is moving fast and not stopping to rest. In that scenario you are regenerating more often. You are also doing more slowing, which means you are more likely to get hit at some point too, which is where FSI can come in handy.

[Toxigen]

yeah FSI is sure gonna save you against a flurry

lmao

this guy talkin about raiding like hes done anything more than buff/slow bot

[DeathsSilkyMist]

yeah FSI is sure gonna save you against a flurry

lmao

Agreed, FSI will not save you from a Flurry. Nor have I ever claimed otherwise. Regen will not save you either, as you would only get something like 16 HP at most from Regen while getting hit from said Flurry.

FSI is better than Regen when dealing with a Flurry, because not getting stunned from a bash increases your chances of landing a slow before you die. You get more auto attack swings from https://wiki.project1999.com/Di%60zok_Oracle_Shillelagh , and you are more likely to land the slow you are casting.

[Troxx]

I experienced JBB until (I think) level 56. Mob hp got higher and it was a choice between standing there clicking JBB (+/- adding my own dots) and either trying to let dog tank or simply face tanking. Dog would not be reliable in holding aggro, so it meant the mob was on me.

Fastest kill speed: dog + dot + jbb
Medium kill speed: dog + jbb no dot
Slightly slower: load some dots + dog tank + me med vs cannidance

Why did the third option just end up better over time even though the individual kill speed was slightly lower? Efficiency resulted in less down time and faster pull tempo. JBB meant I was face tanking. JBB meant I was not only missing out on extra regen and med ticks from sitting during the fight, I was actively taking the damage vs letting the pet do that.

Pet regens 30 per tick baseline. More with a regen buff. You and I both know that shaman pets properly buffed are actually pretty good meat shields. By capitalizing on both the pet’s innate regen , regen buff, my own innate regen (sitting), fungi, and buff regen - well between the two of us we were rocking along at 30 + 15 + 15 + 15 (75 total health per tick) combined BEFORE you factor in troll racial regen while sitting. This is vs just my own regen and not getting to sit. So yeah 91 regen (16 racial sitting) combined between the two of us. It was nearly 1/3 of a continuous torpor that only required a regrowth refresh every nearly 20 minutes.

Pet health regen covered the dps of mobs in this level range very nicely and heals were infrequent and not very necessary- super efficient. My own regen covered the hits I would take here and there and funnel all that extra back into my mana bar. By not standing and chain clicking, I would also hit a lot of med ticks.

Even when the fights took a bit longer, I would kill more total mobs over any given unit time as each fight would end with me simply ready for the next.

With JBB chain clicking there were no med ticks. My innate regen was cut in half. I would be the one actively taking the damage which would require either time or mana to recover, and I’d have less mana from not canni’ing or dancing along the way.

You can show all the cute math of what a “free” clicky gives you in terms of dps, but don’t neglect the opportunity cost of having all of your everything fully occupied during the time you’re face tanking the damage and mindlessly clicking JBB.

Then again, Troll regen was there. You like to quote the differences while standing but I promise it’s a much wider gap while sitting.

Yes. Mid-50s it became less efficient than just playing differently and more efficiently. It was then I realized that my once overpowered self-PL tool was now just a cute toy.

Beyond that - the best results were with a duo buddy and god damn if it wasn’t boring as fuck. Shaman is such a dynamic class. It’s a shame to see it relegated to slowing a mob on incomming. And then just mindlessly hitting one key until it was dead.

Sold it. No regrets. Don’t want another. Would sell another immediately if I won one in a group.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I experienced JBB until (I think) level 56. Mob hp got higher and it was a choice between standing there clicking JBB (+/- adding my own dots) and either trying to let dog tank or simply face tanking. Dog would not be reliable in holding aggro, so it meant the mob was on me.
...


Lets set a basic scenario. You are a level 58 Shaman. You spend 30 minutes in combat, and 30 minutes pulling/recovering/waiting for respawns.

Average mob DPS at that level after being slowed is around 10 DPS at worst I believe, looking at some quick fights. 10 x 1800 seconds = 18000 HP if you are face tanking.

A level 58 Iksar is going to be regenerating at +17 HP over Barbarians/Ogres, assuming you canni dance perfectly for 30 minutes straight. This is 5100 HP.

This means an Iksar who is root/rotting and never gets hit is saving 23100 HP in that time frame at best, assuming perfect play. Using Cannibalize 3 (better before Torpor due to faster cast rate, easier to canni dance with), that means an Iksar is saving 11781 mana at best.

If you click JBB 6 times per minute, that is a total of 180 clicks. 180 clicks = 47340 damage.

47340 / 1648 (damage done from 1x Bane of Nife) = 29 casts x 425 mana = 12325 mana saved from casting damage spells.

A Shaman who is face tanking is also saving mana by not casting root. Assuming you are fighting 1 mob every 2 minutes, that is an additional 1500 mana saved minimum by not spending 100 mana per root on paralyzing earth.

If you are having your pet tank while you sit and recover, you'll need to slow the mob, just like when you face tank. If you don't you'll need to spend time controlling your pet by backing it off, which lowers DPS.

Baseline you are looking at 11781 mana saved (Iksar Root Rotting) vs. 13825 mana saved with a Shaman who is face tanking with JBB. The JBB + face tank strategy is easier to use than perfectly canni dancing at all times (less APM and worrying about server ticks) and never getting hit while root/rotting. Realistically you probably will miss some server ticks, so the 11781 mana value will be lower in practice. The number of root breaks is going to be greater than 0, so JBB is realistically saving more on root costs too.

Now, you will say "but spell resists". I can tell you from experience that JBB rarely gets resisted on trash mobs while leveling. I honestly stopped maloing while leveling because it wasn't necessary. The opportunity cost of getting a single resist from a Bane of Nife is also higher than JBB. A resist on JBB costs no mana, a resist on Bane is 425 mana.

JBB + Face tanking is giving you a 15% boost in mana over an Iksar root/rotting without Epic assuming perfect play. Realistically it is higher since perfect root/rot play with perfect canni dancing is harder to do.

As I said, trivial to disprove.

[Penish]

if you're casting a jbb instead of a canni, you're a bad player

thnx

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As a small addendum to the previous post:

https://project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671558&postcount=411

If you want to take into account the Iksar regen for the 30 minutes of pulling/recovering/waiting for respawns, that is another 2601 mana assuming you canni dance for an hour straight without missing a tick somehow.

That is 14382 mana saved per hour on an Iksar Shaman who is root rotting if they canni dance for an hour straight without missing a single server tick, they never get a root break, and they never get hit.

A JBB Shaman is saving 13825 mana per hour. It is a nearly impossible task to get the 500 mana over a JBB Shaman in the same hour. The JBB Shaman simply needs to cast slow, spam jbb, position the pet behind the mob, and pull.

Realistically speaking the JBB Shaman is saving a significant amount of mana compared to the Iksar Shamam who is root rotting without Epic in the same hour.

[bcbrown]

Are you taking into account mana gained from meditating while root rotting? 30 minutes at 10 ticks/minute and 21 mana/tick adds 6300 mana.

[Toxigen]

here is where DSMs shit falls apart

rdy?

2 freshly dinged 56 shaman, 1 ogre spamming jbb and 1 lizard w/ no jbb playing smart

guess who hits 57 in less time /played?

[Troxx]

Let’s agree that:

-pet is about 15dps buffed at this level
-mob hp is 4500hp
-mob will do 10dps slowed
-the shaman doesn’t suck so it is slowed before “impact”
-both shamans will be slowing, so remove that from the equation
-both shamans have racial regen/fungi and regrowth

JBB shaman:
15 dps pet + 32.875 dps JBB (48dps)
Fight takes 94 seconds
Mob does 940 damage to the shaman
Shaman regenerated 600 health over 94 seconds
Fight ends with shaman at a net negative 300hp
It will take 45 seconds to regen the lost hp and will recover 150 mana during that time.

Dot shaman:
15 dps pet + 2x ebolts (not bane) will take 133 seconds (pet has to do 2k damage)
30 mana root (Pe not needed)
Mob does 1330 damage to pet
Pet regenerated 1000hp
Shaman regenerated 1019 health
Shaman meditated back 19 ticks = 380 mana passively
Shaman turned that 1019 health back into 500 extra mana
Shaman spent 2 years bolts and 1 roots mana = 670 mana
Shaman ends up with the same net health and 210 surplus mana while pet is down 330 health.

JBB fight? Faster.
2nd fight? Slower but with net gain vs loss. Pet will be regen a good portion of the net deficit back by the time you pull the next.

Interestingly, since you had a net mana gain vs JBB, you can alternate ebolt x2 fights with fights with a single bane and a single ebolt. Every other fight is faster. Bringing down average time to kill a mob and you still squeak closer to a break even point.

This is precisely how I did it. Remember when you’re focused on efficiency you just need to do more total damage than your pet for full xp. As soon as I realized I could kill more mobs over a unit time by not spamming JBB - I sold it.

Then I got epic and none of this mattered anymore.

It does average out faster … well … at least for a troll or iksar.

here is where DSMs shit falls apart

rdy?

2 freshly dinged 56 shaman, 1 ogre spamming jbb and 1 lizard w/ no jbb playing smart

guess who hits 57 in less time /played?

I just showed him the math.

If you want to see the results for an ogre - subtract 7 hp/tick which over a 94 second fight is a net negative of 109 hp … which adds another 24 seconds to the recovery time.

[Troxx]

God I hate napkin math, but it’s the only language he speaks.

I can promise it is so much more obvious when you’re actually doing it.

[Toxigen]

I just showed him the math.

If you want to see the results for an ogre - subtract 7 hp/tick which over a 94 second fight is a net negative of 109 hp … which adds another 24 seconds to the recovery time.

now add in a little oopsie daisy here and there where things dont go mathematically perfect and lizardpeepul get better and better

[Tann]

https://feuniverse.us/uploads/default/original/3X/e/8/e8da76c793479ebdca927f5ea9446960f95969f2.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Are you taking into account mana gained from meditating while root rotting? 30 minutes at 10 ticks/minute and 21 mana/tick adds 6300 mana.

A fair point! I did not actually. We can take a look again.

This is the scenario: You are a level 58 Shaman. Let's get some real mob data in as well, to ensure we are using the right amount of DPS/Mana spent per kill. I'll look at https://wiki.project1999.com/A_Ratfink as the example, as PoM Rat Maze is a good spot to XP at 58. They have 7000 HP according to the Wiki, and looking at my SK's data when he was up there, the amount of damage needed to kill this mob matches the wiki.

I will not be taking into account the mana spent on Regrowth and Haste, since both Shamans are going to spend this mana anyway. First let's look at combat, where we assume the mob is doing an average of 10 DPS after being slowed:

The level 55 Shaman pet does 17 DPS while hasted on average. If you cast 2x Bane of Nife and 2x Envenomed Bolt, you will kill the mob after 96 seconds. This is because 96 x 17 = 1632 damage, and 1278 x 2 + 1648 x 2 = 5852. 5852 + 1632 = 7484 damage, which is close enough when taking into account mob regen. The Iksar Shaman is spending a minimum of 320 x 2 (EBolt) + 425 x 2 (Bane) + 100 (Root) + 175 (Slow) = 1765 mana per mob. In 96 seconds you are realistically getting 10 ticks of sitting, as you will probably miss the ticks while casting spells. Bane is 5 seconds of cast time, and Ebolt is 6 seconds of cast time. Root + Canni 3 and Slow + Canni 3 is also going to end up being 5ish seconds each. You are getting 210 mana back from the 10 meditation ticks, 160 HP from sitting ticks, and +42 HP over Barbarians/Ogres from the 6 standing ticks. This reduces mana cost by 311. So you are spending 1454 mana per mob.

JBB does 32.8 DPS, and the pet does 17 DPS. This means the JBB Shaman will need to cast 2x Ebolts in addition to JBB to kill the mob in the same time. The JBB Shaman is spending a minimum of 175 (Slow) + 320 x 2 (EBolt) = 815 mana per mob. Assuming the mob is doing an average of 10 DPS after being slowed, this Shaman is also taking 960 damage, which is converted into 490 mana. So you are spending 1305 per mob.

A few extra factors need to be taken into consideration:

1. If a mob is doing 10 DPS, that means a tanking pet is going to need to back off of the mob every ~200 seconds to recover some HP so it doesn't die. Fights last 100 seconds each, which means your pet is going to be out of 1/3 fights roughly speaking, as they will need to spend time recovering. This means you will need to cast an extra DoT like Plague in 1/3 fights. This adds another 100 mana to the amount spent per mob. Now we are at 1554 mana spent per mob on the Iksar vs 1305 spent per mob on the JBB Shaman.

2. Realistically speaking root breaks occur, so you will not get away with 1 root per mob always. I don't have an exact figure on root break percentages, but let's just throw a random number out and say 1/10 roots break. This will add another 15 mana per mob roughly speaking when looking at mana spent, a meditation tick lost, and damage taken. Now we are at 1569 mana spent per mob on the Iksar vs 1305 spent per mob on the JBB Shaman.

3. Spell resists are a bigger problem on Root/Rotting Shamans. They do not occur often, but let's say it is 2% of the time. The root/rotting Shaman has 6 spells that can be randomly resisted, with an average cost of 228 mana. This means you have a 12% chance of losing 228 per fight. This is another additional cost of 27 mana per fight on an Iksar. A JBB Shaman is casting 3 spells with an average mana cost of 271. This means you have a 6% chance of losing 271 mana. This is an additional cost of 16 mana for the JBB Shaman. A resisted JBB costs zero mana. Now we are at 1585 mana spent per mob on the Iksar vs 1321 spent per mob on the JBB Shaman.

4. A face tanking Shaman can melee in combat, allowing them to proc weapons. https://wiki.project1999.com/Blight,_Hammer_of_the_Scourge is 4 DPS when it procs. Assuming an average proc rate of 1 per minute, the mob is taking an extra 2 DPS total, assuming it gets half ticks in. That means the mob is dying a bit faster, which reduces damage taken. Assuming you can kill the mob roughly 6 seconds faster, you will save 30 mana from damage. Now we are at 1571 mana spent per mob on the Iksar vs 1291 spent per mob on the JBB Shaman.

Next let's look at the recovery out of combat. A Barbarian/Ogre with Regrowth is getting 24 HP and 21 Mana from Canni Dance with Regrowth. An Iksar with Regrowth is getting 41 HP and 21 Mana from Canni Dance with Regrowth. This means 33 Mana per tick on the Barbarian/Ogre vs. 41 Mana per tick on the Iksar. It takes ~38.3 ticks to recover the mana from spending 1585 mana per mob on an Iksar. It takes ~38.6 ticks to recover the mana from spending 1291 mana per mob.

As you can see, they are essentially equal on paper when taking into account the number of ticks it takes to recover from a fight, assuming you just keep pulling mobs back to back within an hour. It's a difference of 0-1 ticks per encounter. The JBB Shaman doesn't have to worry about root breaks, pet management, and perfect canni dancing during combat. They also have to worry less about spell resists, due to the opportunity cost of a single resist being lower. This is why JBB Shamans end up being more efficient by a significant amount. They have less things to do per fight, and have less opportunities for RnG to screw you over.

[bcbrown]

A 96 second kill means you can use Enstill instead of Paralyzing Earth. 40 mana savings upfront, and maybe reduce your 15 mana cost of root breaks to 10 mana.

30hp/tick regen on pet means 480hp regen in 96 seconds. 10DPS is 960, so pet is taking 480 damage/fight. This means that as long as you take at least 16 ticks of recovery time, the pet can always be fighting with no interventions. We can remove the extra 100 mana cost for Plague.

I don't think your proc math is right. You're only going to get one swing in per JBB cast. Delay - second conversion is 10, right, so a 47 delay weapon should have one swing every 4.7 seconds? That means you get roughly half as many procs as expected?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A 96 second kill means you can use Enstill instead of Paralyzing Earth. 40 mana savings upfront, and maybe reduce your 15 mana cost of root breaks to 10 mana.

30hp/tick regen on pet means 480hp regen in 96 seconds. 10DPS is 960, so pet is taking 480 damage/fight. This means that as long as you take at least 16 ticks of recovery time, the pet can always be fighting with no interventions. We can remove the extra 100 mana cost for Plague.

I don't think your proc math is right. You're only going to get one swing in per JBB cast. Delay - second conversion is 10, right, so a 47 delay weapon should have one swing every 4.7 seconds? That means you get roughly half as many procs as expected?

You wouldn't want to use Enstill because it cuts too close to the kill time. If your pet happens to do less DPS from RnG, or you get a spell resist, you will be forced to cast a second Enstill anyway, and 2x enstill's costs 120 mana total. If you need to root a second mob off to the side with enstill, you will also need to cast it again.

Good call on the pet regen. Taking 480 damage per fight means they will be out of a fight 1/4 times instead of 1/3. This is because the pet dies after taking 480 damage 4x times. You will need to remove it from combat periodically even with the regen to prevent it from dying. You wouldn't have your pet in combat at like 10% life for fear of an unlucky double attack. You would do something like 75 mana instead of 100 mana to account for this. It certainly isn't zero.

For proc rates, you are swinging inbetween JBB casts, which is 8 seconds. You are getting half swings, this is true. But a Shaman can buff their DEX. An Ogre Shaman with Mortal Deftness (level 58) would have 130 dex base, assuming no other gear. It would be like 0.75 procs per fight, so you are correct that would be a bit lower.

Thanks for the corrections. It would give like 25 extra mana to the Iksar and maybe 20 less mana to the Ogre/Barbarian. Not enough to swing the final result in any meaningful way. The sheer amount of extra RnG the Root/Rotting Shaman has to deal with ends up costing them more mana and time in the long run compared to the JBB Shaman's simpler playstyle.

[bcbrown]

If root wears off, so what? Other scenario is face tanking anyway.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If root wears off, so what? Other scenario is face tanking anyway.

Indeed, but that means you are taking damage instead. Taking 80 damage from the mob in the last 8 seconds of the fight is 80 HP, which is 40 mana, the difference from paralzying earth. Or 60 mana from a second Enstill if the fight needs to last longer. I am not saying Enstill would never work, but just looking at the possible scenarios shows that it doesn't end up helping as much as you think.

[Troxx]

It really doesn’t matter if the mob has 4500hp or 7000hp. In fact, the more hp the mob has you actually get more efficient as it opens up the disease line of dots.

I’m not going to bother with a point by point rebuttal. I already did the napkin math for you once. If you’re confused - read it again. It you have a problem with the numbers or think the math was off - let me know and we can discuss.

Let the pet tank. Give it regen. If you don’t, you’re leaving 45hp/tick on the table and it’s getting wasted. Capitalize on 2 pools of hp both with high regen. Turn regen into mana. Profit.

JBB is less efficient after yard trash under the level of ravishing drolvargs green out. Mob more than doubles and mob damage output rises sharply. 55 pet was the ultimate turning point and by then you have regrowth (a shaman’s most efficient heal in the game).

Ps: indirectly, slow is the most efficient shaman heal

With regards to root: I used the lowest level one. It costs like 30 mana and lasts for a minute. Mob doesn’t have to stay permanently rooted. Pet will build aggro and usually holds if it breaks after a minute. If root breaks early, it’s a cheap recast - and it casts fast.

Root it again and take a step back. It’s not hard.


GIVE THE PET REGROWTH AND IT REGENS 45 a tick

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It really doesn’t matter if the mob has 4500hp or 7000hp. In fact, the more hp the mob has you actually get more efficient as it opens up the disease line of dots.

I’m not going to bother with a point by point rebuttal. I already did the napkin math for you once. If you’re confused - read it again. It you have a problem with the numbers or think the math was off - let me know and we can discuss.

Let the pet tank. Give it regen. If you don’t, you’re leaving 45hp/tick on the table and it’s getting wasted. Capitalize on 2 pools of hp both with high regen. Turn regen into mana. Profit.

JBB is less efficient after yard trash under the level of ravishing drolvargs green out. Mob more than doubles and mob damage output rises sharply. 55 pet was the ultimate turning point and by then you have regrowth (a shaman’s most efficient heal in the game).

Ps: indirectly, slow is the most efficient shaman heal

With regards to root: I used the lowest level one. It costs like 30 mana and lasts for a minute. Mob doesn’t have to stay permanently rooted. Pet will build aggro and usually holds if it breaks after a minute. If root breaks early, it’s a cheap recast - and it casts fast.

Root it again and take a step back. It’s not hard.

I showed you the math. JBB is superior all the way to 60. You'll need to rebut what I've shown if you think it is wrong.


GIVE THE PET REGROWTH AND IT REGENS 45 a tick

It also adds 300 mana cost per 15 minutes, or 1200 mana spent per hour.

[Troxx]

Why do I even bother. Pearls before swine.

Oh well. I tried

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why do I even bother. Pearls before swine.

Oh well. I tried

I appreciate your attempt! But you didn't deliver, and have yet to rebut my last post https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671586&postcount=420 . Bcbrown corrected a few minor errors (thanks!), but it isn't enough to change the outcome.

[bcbrown]

DSM, could you address Troxx's scenario on the previous page? I'd like to see that before I continue nitpicking your calculations.

[Troxx]

Fuck it. I said I wouldn’t but this is fun!

Let’s agree that:

-pet is about 17dps buffed at this level
-mob hp is 7000
-mob will do 10dps slowed
-the shaman doesn’t suck so it is slowed before “impact”
-both shamans will be slowing, so remove that from the equation
-both shamans have racial regen/fungi and regrowth

JBB shaman:
17 dps pet + 32.875 dps JBB (50dps)
Fight takes 140 seconds
Mob does 1400damage to the shaman
Shaman regenerated 920 health over 140 seconds
Fight ends with shaman at a net negative 480hp
It will take 72 seconds to regen the lost hp and will recover 240 mana during that time.

Total time (fight+ recovery) = 212 seconds

Dot shaman:
17 dps pet + 2x ebolts + 1 plague = 188 seconds for pet to do 3.2kdmg
30 mana root (Pe not needed)
Mob does 1880 damage to pet
Pet regenerated 1410hp
Shaman regenerated 1441 health
Shaman meditated back 28 ticks = 560 mana passively
Shaman turned that 1441 health back into 720 extra mana
Shaman spent 2 EB 1 plague and 1 roots mana = 950 mana
Shaman ends up with the same net health and 330 surplus mana while pet is down 470 health.

Total tome (fight+ recovery) = 188 seconds. You are ready to go and can use 175 of that 330 surplus mana to toss a chloroplast on your pet to have the pet “broken even” on health. Heck you still have 155 positive mana so why not use PE instead of root and you still have a whole ‘nother PE’s mana left over in surplus. Or consider it mana left over to compensate for the slow you had to cast or for fizzles/resists over time.

If you’re an ogre, it looks worse for both camps cause no racial regen

So …. 212 seconds for each kill if mad/sad/bad JBB clicking shaman if troll (worse of ogre) vs 188 seconds (worse if ogre)

Well blimey … JBB is slower by 12 fucking percent!

https://media.tenor.com/1Q_54iUeBzUAAAAi/mic-drop.gif

[Tann]

https://media.tenor.com/1Q_54iUeBzUAAAAi/mic-drop.gif

Please keep fighting the good fight by posting the facts, you'll never get through to p99's resident flat Earther, he'll go down with that ship claiming it's not actually sinking, but at least you tried!

[Jimjam]

here is where DSMs shit falls apart

rdy?

2 freshly dinged 56 shaman, 1 ogre spamming jbb and 1 lizard w/ no jbb playing smart

guess who hits 57 in less time /played?

The barbarian shaman 3/4 of the way thru 55 with his mighty hammer?

[Troxx]

The barbarian shaman 3/4 of the way thru 55 with his mighty hammer?

And yes. The real winner is the barbarian if we acknowledge that getting to 60 and getting torpor and having all that extra time to build dkp and acquire gear is the actual definition of Min/max

:p

As for me? I like scratching my butt

:D

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM, could you address Troxx's scenario on the previous page? I'd like to see that before I continue nitpicking your calculations.

Sure. Unfortunately Troxx has excluded a number of variables, which is why he thinks he is correct when he is not. The mic drop was premature sadly.

Using Troxx's example, the Mob has 4500 HP and deals 10 DPS slowed. We are a level 58 Shaman that has Regrowth on, and has hasted their pet. Mana costs for self Regrowth and Pet Haste are ignored for this test, since both Shamans will do it. This means the reduction in mana per tick is the same for both the Iksar Shaman and the Ogre Shaman.

I did make a few minor errors in my calculations in the previous post, but they end up working out better for JBB anyway. A Canni Dancing Ogre Shaman is getting 32 mana per tick. This is because you get 6 + 15 = 21 HP from sitting + Regrowth on the tick, and 21 from meditate. After cannibalizing this equates to 32 mana per tick. A Canni Dancing Iksar Shaman is getting 16 + 15 = 31 HP from sitting + Regrowth on the tick, and 21 from meditate. This equates to 37 mana per tick.

JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge (2.2 DPS from half duration of procced Dot and initial DD) = 53 DPS. A JBB Shaman would kill a mob with 4500 HP in 85 seconds. You would get 14 ticks of standing HP regen + Regrowth, so you would reduce incoming damage by (15 + 3) X 14 = 252. You get 14 mana from the standing mana regen. This means the JBB Shaman spent a Total of 175 (Slow) + ((850 damage taken - 252 damage reduced) / 2) - 14 Mana = 460 mana spent. A canni dancing Ogre is getting 32 mana per tick. That means it takes 86 seconds to recover out of combat. Time per mob = 85 + 86 = 171 seconds including recovery time after the fight.

A DoT Shaman using 2x EBolts, Hasted + Regen Pet, 1x Slow and 1x Paralzying Earth would kill the mob in 115 seconds. This is because the Pet would be fighting the entire time. 2x Ebolts would do 2556 damage in 112 seconds including cast time, and it takes 115 seconds for the pet to do the remainder damage at 17 DPS. Since the pet and DoT's are going simultaneously and this includes DoT cast time, this is correct. The mana spent on this would be 320 x 2 (EBolt) + 175 (Slow) + 100 (Paralzying Earth) = 915 from spell costs. A canni dancing Shaman would not be able to canni dance during spell casting in combat. This means you are also losing 4 ticks of meditate (84 mana and 24 sitting HP), for an extra 96 mana worth of cost. This means you spend 1011 mana per fight. You are casting Regen on your pet while a JBB Shaman is not, which means you are spending 1300 mana per hour, including the meditation tick loss. This equates to -2.2 mana per tick. A canni dancing Iksar that is Regening their pet is therefore getting 34.8 mana per tick. Time per mob = 174 seconds including recovery time after the fight.

I am specifically using Paralzying Earth instead of Root on the DoTTing Shaman because Troxx cannot simply assume the pet will always have agro after a low level root, which only lasts 48 seconds and can break early. Just using these calculations alone, the JBB Shaman is 3 seconds faster per encounter. Realistically this number is higher, because the DoTTing shaman in this scenario is assumed to never get a root break, spell resist, never get hit by the mob at all, and never miss a canni dance in combat outside of casting. Obviously this is unrealistic in practice. This is why JBB is better all the way until level 60. You do less work and cast less spells for the same base kill speed. This simplified playstyle reduces the RnG chances that your XP session will be interrupted by bad luck.

[Troxx]

The pain of loss stings doesn’t it?

Don’t worry. It will pass with time.

Chin up buddy! JBB is still a viable strategy. It works just fine! Much like FSI also works but is less powerful than racial regen, JBB spamming is simply not the best choice after the early powering levels have passed. Thankfully the shaman class is so ridiculously overpowered that you can make a ton of boneheaded mistakes and still defeat any encounter out there you want!

Hope that helps.

Lovingly yours,

Troxx

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The pain of loss stings doesn’t it?

Don’t worry. It will pass with time.

Chin up buddy! JBB is still a viable strategy. It works just fine! Much like FSI also works but is less powerful than racial regen, JBB spamming is simply not the best choice after the early powering levels have passed. Thankfully the shaman class is so ridiculously overpowered that you can make a ton of boneheaded mistakes and still defeat any encounter out there you want!

Hope that helps.

Lovingly yours,

Troxx

You should know the pain of loss, because you lost. You can double check my calculations https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671611&postcount=434 if you don't believe me. Sorry you got your hopes up! You simply didn't take into account a number of variables. It happens.

[bcbrown]

I am specifically using Paralzying Earth instead of Root on the DoTTing Shaman because Troxx cannot simply assume the pet will always have agro after a low level root, which only lasts 48 seconds and can break early.

This is a bad faith adjustment - you of all people should be able to appreciate the value of the pet spamming taunt.

If Troxx reports that he has found the low level taunt to be enough time for the pet to build aggro, I take him at his word, just as I take you at your word when you report your experiences.

If you truly are open to learning new strategies and changing your mind, isn't this worth exploring and attempting?

Your weapon proc calculations aren't correct yet, but I'm not sure I'm willing to calculate the correct value if you're not going to approach this in good faith.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is a bad faith adjustment - you of all people should be able to appreciate the value of the pet spamming taunt.

If Troxx reports that he has found the low level taunt to be enough time for the pet to build aggro, I take him at his word, just as I take you at your word when you report your experiences.

If you truly are open to learning new strategies and changing your mind, isn't this worth exploring and attempting?

Your weapon proc calculations aren't correct yet, but I'm not sure I'm willing to calculate the correct value if you're not going to approach this in good faith.

I have done plenty of rooting and pet tanking before. Spells like Slow generate a lot of hate in the early stages of the fight. Your DoTs and Root are generating hate too. Assuming a 48 second root is always going to be enough when you have RNG on taunt and root breaks is obviously silly. You are going to encur HP or mana costs from root due to it being resisted or broken early in some fights. You can't just ignore that. Either you use a higher mana slow to cover those cases in the example, or you assume that you are casting at least 2x 30 mana roots per fight. Just remember that casting another spell in combat incurs another meditation tick penalty, which is 26 mana on an Iksar. That is 30 + 30 + 26 = 86 mana. A root break also come with potential damage. If you took even 1 hit, you've basically spent the same mana as Paralyzing Earth.

The fight lasts 85 seconds. A Shaman can easily get some DEX gear and buff themselves. At 170 Dex you get 1.5 PPM. An 85 second fight would have have 2 procs on average, which gets halved by JBB. So yes, you would get 1 proc per fight on average.

Finally, Troxx always approaches discussions like this in bad faith, and that is clear from his trolling. You have trolled this thread too. You are not in a position to be judging others.

[Duik]

Based on this I'd do slow, 1 dot use pet hasted AND use JBB. So this is for a troll/barb/ogre
Dots are more efficient mana wise. While dots ticking id canni dance.
Pet gets enough agro in this time. Malo in this time as well to (help) mitigate resists.
JBB while not huge damage will take up the slack while saving the dot mana.

A troll with snare neck could easily ping pong (even tick mana sitting to get sit agro) a mob with JBB while letting pet rear attacks while taunt may re attract its attention. Also saving mana on re rooting when mob is in flee mode. Either scenario works here.
As usual the answer is somewhere in the middle.

OT i know but Thoughts?
No napkin math but based on you all's posted numbers this seems like a great niche strat.
-- Just realised this is iksar specific thread. So no JBB. Ha. Topics get messed up so often its hard to follow sometimes.

[Troxx]

On standard xp mobs malo doesn’t provide value. Resist rate is already low so that’s just wasted mana :(

Yes pet hasted + dot + jbb is gonna get it dead the fastest but you’ll end up killing fewer mobs per unit time due to recovery and down time. Remember… we’re talking about leveling with or without JBB here - no 60 and no torpor.

You know … those earlier levels where shamans either fly high or are mediocre depending entirely on how efficiently they manage their time and resources.


Shaman would have been a more interesting class without torpor. Druids should have gotten torpor. It was a mistake to give that kind of heal on a class that can slow, convert their hp to mana, CC, have a pocket pet, some of the best buffs, AND some pretty heavy hitting and mana efficient dots.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

On standard xp mobs malo doesn’t provide value. Resist rate is already low so that’s just wasted mana :(


Agreed. I stopped using the malo line of spells while leveling from 50-60. My spells all landed enough of the time.


but you’ll end up killing fewer mobs per unit time due to recovery and down time [with JBB]. Remember… we’re talking about leveling with or without JBB here - no 60 and no torpor.


As I said, this is easy to disprove with math: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671611&postcount=434

JBB is more efficient for leveling than root rotting and dotting all the way to 60, even when comparing an Ogre with JBB to an Iksar without JBB (racial regen).


Shaman would have been a more interesting class without torpor. Druids should have gotten torpor. It was a mistake to give that kind of heal on a class that can slow, convert their hp to mana, CC, have a pocket pet, some of the best buffs, AND some pretty heavy hitting and mana efficient dots.

I do agree that pre-torpor Shamans are a lot of fun. I really enjoyed my JBB + Fungi Tunic + Fungi Staff + Black Fur Boots combo.

[Duik]

On standard xp mobs malo doesn’t provide value. Resist rate is already low so that’s just wasted mana

Got it. I was just going off the statement that said resists on dots, slow and root need to be taken into account. Also i never earnt enough cash on live to buy a jbb so never tested any of this.
I took a druid to a higher lvl and that would have been splendid having a mana efficient heal like torp. But nvm.

[Troxx]

As I said, this is easy to disprove with math: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671611&postcount=434

JBB is more efficient for leveling than root rotting and dotting all the way to 60, even when comparing an Ogre with JBB to an Iksar without JBB (racial regen).

No.

You didn’t.

I literally showed you the exact opposite:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671575&postcount=416

You then moved the goalposts to a theoretical fight in PoM (rats). The mob now has 7k hp. I played along nicely. You moved the goalpost but I plugged in the exact parameters you provided. I even adjusted the pet dps up to 17 to accommodate YOUR parameters.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671598&postcount=430

Just face the music. You were wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No.

You didn’t.

I literally showed you the exact opposite:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671575&postcount=416

You then moved the goalposts to a theoretical fight in PoM (rats). The mob now has 7k hp. I played along nicely. You moved the goalpost but I plugged in the exact parameters you provided. I even adjusted the pet dps up to 17 to accommodate YOUR parameters.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671598&postcount=430

Just face the music. You were wrong.

Everybody can see your calculations are incorrect and do not take into account all of the variables. Doing the math incorrectly and declaring victory is just silly. People can just read your post for themselves and see it. This is how it should look https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671611&postcount=434 .

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here is an easier to read version, using Troxx's example with the 1x regular root:

Criteria
=========
1. Level 58 Shaman.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Ogre Shaman gains 28.46 Mana per tick while canni dancing with overhead from self Regrowth and pet Celerity over 1 hour.
5. Iksar Shaman gains 33.44 Mana per Tick while canni dancing with overhead from self Regrowth and pet Celerity over 1 hour.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 396 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects

615 Total mana spent using the values above

132 seconds to kill the mob (53 DPS)
130 Seconds of recovery time when recovering 28.46 mana per tick via canni dance

262 Second of encounter time per mob including recovery.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 501 HP recovered from canni dance regen (16 HP) over 31 ticks
- 658 Mana recovered from canni dance regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 125 Mana spent due to losing 5 canni dance ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet for the full hour

431 Total Mana Spent from the values above

188 seconds to kill the mob (37.2 DPS)
77 seconds of recovery time when recovering 33.44 mana per tick via canni dance

265 Seconds of encounter time per mob including recovery.

When you factor in all of the overhead, you will see that the JBB Shaman clears the encounter 3 seconds faster using Troxx's exact example of 1x Root, 2x Envenomed Bolts, 1x Plague, and 1x Togor's Insects. This example does not take into account the DoT Shaman's increased chances of spell resists (spending more mana), root breaks (spending more mana, taking damage), and requirement to canni dance perfectly while in combat (gaining less mana when missing the server tick).

This is why JBB is the better leveling tool from 45-60. Even when comparing a Shaman race with Regen to a Shaman race without Regen, the JBB wins. Simplifying your playstyle and reducing RNG while clearing mobs at the same speed is better in the long run. You save a good amount of time and mana by avoiding the extra RNG elements that root/rotting has.

For people who want to see more details on some of the calculations:

- An Ogre Shaman normally gets 6 (sitting regen) + 15 (regrowth) = 21 HP and 21 mana per tick while canni dancing. This translates to 32 mana per tick after cannibalizing the HP. Casting 4x Celerity costs 740 mana per hour, and casting 4x regrowth costs 1200 mana. Casting 8x spells also causes you to lose 8 ticks of canni dancing. This means you lose 160 meditation mana and 48 HP (24 Mana cannibalized). 740 + 1200 + 160 + 24 = 2124 / 600 ticks per hour = 3.58 mana regeneration per tick over an hour. 32 - 3.54 = 28.46 Mana per tick while canni dancing after considering overhead.

- An Iksar Shaman normally gets 16 (sitting regen) + 15 (regrowth) = 31 HP and 21 mana per tick while canni dancing. This translates to 37 mana per tick after cannibalizing the HP. Casting 4x Celerity costs 740 mana per hour, and casting 4x regrowth costs 1200 mana. Casting 8x spells also causes you to lose 8 ticks of canni dancing. This means you lose 160 meditation mana and 80 HP (40 Mana cannibalized). 740 + 1200 + 160 + 40 = 2140 / 600 ticks per hour = 3.566 mana regeneration per tick over an hour. 37 - 3.566 = 33.44 Mana per tick while canni dancing after considering overhead.

[bcbrown]

Either you use a higher mana slow to cover those cases in the example, or you assume that you are casting at least 2x 30 mana roots per fight. Just remember that casting another spell in combat incurs another meditation tick penalty, which is 26 mana on an Iksar. That is 30 + 30 + 26 = 86 mana. A root break also come with potential damage. If you took even 1 hit, you've basically spent the same mana as Paralyzing Earth.

What do you mean by higher mana slow? Aren't we already using Turgur's? And certainly - there will be some fights where lil doggo can't keep aggro. But if in most fights a single 30m root is sufficient, while maybe one in ten requires a second cast - you'll still be far more efficient than going with paralyzing earth.

But, to be clear - I'm not saying it's bad faith to dispute the assumption that root is sufficient. I'm saying that proceeding to calculating numbers while implicitly disputing assumptions is in bad faith - numbers are meaningless without an agreed-upon set of assumptions.

The fight lasts 85 seconds. A Shaman can easily get some DEX gear and buff themselves. At 170 Dex you get 1.5 PPM. An 85 second fight would have have 2 procs on average, which gets halved by JBB. So yes, you would get 1 proc per fight on average.

I know you don't like it when I use the big fancy math words, but unfortunately this is a case where they are necessary. You need to account for the fact procs are memoryless - the likelihood of a proc on any given swing is independent of whether or not any prior swings had a proc. This is a binomial distribution - a series of weighted coin flips. Some fights will have no procs at all, and some fights will have back-to-back procs. Since the proc is a dot, back to back procs are in essence mostly wasted.

I can calculate the expected damage due to procs, but given your past hostility to calculations of expected values, I'm only willing to do so if you're genuinely interested. Off the top of my head, I expect it to end up somewhere between one half and three quarters of the naive calculation.

Finally, Troxx always approaches discussions like this in bad faith, and that is clear from his trolling. You have trolled this thread too. You are not in a position to be judging others.

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

I would never judge another person, nor presume to know what is in their heart. It is the act that I label, and not the person. I am not here to defend Troxx - it is not I to whom he shall have to answer. I try to learn from anyone who has something to teach me, regardless of whatever personal failings they may have. I've learned a ton from you! I bought a PWC and SCHW on your advice, and that served me very well indeed.

If you think I've trolled you, that saddens me, and I can only offer a heartfelt apology, whether or not it is accepted. I feel bad about last night. I made an honest mistake - I thought you said you hadn't deleted and reposted. That made me excited that perhaps I found a bug in the bulletin board software; I'm aware that that may be hard to understand and easy to mock, but to put it in familiar terms I guess it's like stumbling across Quillmane back before the whole idea of placeholders was well understood.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

What do you mean by higher mana slow?


I meant root. I didn't realize I said "slow" there instead of root.


But, to be clear - I'm not saying it's bad faith to dispute the assumption that root is sufficient. I'm saying that proceeding to calculating numbers while implicitly disputing assumptions is in bad faith - numbers are meaningless without an agreed-upon set of assumptions.


I have reposted a simpler version using 1x root because it bothered people using Troxx's precise example, and JBB Shaman still wins:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671655&postcount=445


I know you don't like it when I use the big fancy math words


I am perfectly fine with you using any math terminology you want. Claiming that I don't like math terminology is just silly, and sounds like an insult. I simply disagree with some of your presumptions with regards to the mathematics of this game, and I am not impressed by the math you have been using thus far.


If you think I've trolled you, that saddens me, and I can only offer a heartfelt apology, whether or not it is accepted. I feel bad about last night. I made an honest mistake - I thought you said you hadn't deleted and reposted. That made me excited that perhaps I found a bug in the bulletin board software; I'm aware that that may be hard to understand and easy to mock, but to put it in familiar terms I guess it's like stumbling across Quillmane back before the whole idea of placeholders was well understood.

Yes, you are clearly a troll at this point based on your pattern of behavior. You are going to need to change how you act before I trust you again.

You have never "QA'ed" the forum before, but all of a sudden decided to use my post to do so. I've never seen someone randomly post a forum bug in a thread either. If you thought it was a bug, you can contact the devs of the forum. It's very suspicious to say the least.

You have a pattern of pushing back on my points, while never pushing back on other people's points. I don't mind the push back, but I find it odd you ignore all of the mathematical flaws in Troxx's post or others posts on a consistent basis. If you were being unbiased and genuinely trying to find the answer to the problem, you should statistically push back on other posters occasionally.

You also reposted a common strawman/lie that other trolls repost: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670947&postcount=238 . You wouldn't do this if you weren't trolling. There's no reason to post a strawman/lie about another poster.

[Duik]

Yes, you are clearly a troll at this point based on your pattern of behavior. You are going to need to change how you act before I trust you again.

You have never "QA'ed" the forum before, but all of a sudden decided to use my post to do so. I've never seen someone randomly post a forum bug in a thread either. If you thought it was a bug, you can contact the devs of the forum. It's very suspicious to say the least.

You have a pattern of pushing back on my points, while never pushing back on other people's points. I don't mind the push back, but I find it odd you ignore all of the mathematical flaws in Troxx's post or others posts on a consistent basis. If you were being unbiased and genuinely trying to find the answer to the problem, you should statistically push back on other posters occasionally.

Jesus christ.

Mr brown is the most placating human on the boards. Yet you find fault in his approach to you.
He is (could have been before that post) virtually your best friend here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Jesus christ.

Mr brown is the most placating human on the boards. Yet you find fault in his approach to you.
He is (could have been before that post) virtually your best friend here.

Your judgment on character is completely irrelevant, as you are a troll too. At least you have the courtesy to always act like a troll though!

[Jimjam]

-- Just realised this is iksar specific thread. So no JBB. Ha. Topics get messed up so often its hard to follow sometimes.

One of OP’s concerns was whether being iksar and missing out on JBB would become a severe hamstrung, so jbb talk is valid.

[sajbert]

Got a 54 ogre sham with fungi and I have tried both Epic root rot and JBB-spam.

Multi-root rotting is faster if you have a good location. JBB can be thrown in but it’s super annoying to get root breaks and didn’t seem to save much time. Being troll or iksar would’ve helped a marginal amount. Pet would mop up.

For single target Epic+ JBB-meleespam was the way to go. The extra meleeswings in-between were a bit of added damage too.

[Toxigen]

go outside

[Snaggles]

Just checking back to see how petty and unhinged this has become.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just checking back to see how petty and unhinged this has become.

Agreed. The lengths people will go to just to troll others over simple game mechanics is very sad.

They are hurting the community. Providing bad information to players because you want to troll other posters is destructive.

In Troxx's latest math post that he thought was correct: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671598&postcount=430

He has the Iksar Shaman Regenerate 1441 health over 188 seconds, which isn't possible. A level 58 Shaman is regenerating 16 sitting + 15 regrowth = 31 HP per tick assuming perfect sits on tick. 188 seconds is 31 ticks. 31 x 31 = 961 HP. He gave the DoT Shaman like 500 more HP than he should have.

I made some mistakes in my math calculations as well, which I have owned up to and fixed https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671655&postcount=445 . Troxx has yet to do the same.

[Jimjam]

Shouldn't regrowth be added twice?

[Keebz]

Let’s agree that:
...
-both shamans have racial regen/fungi and regrowth


So they should have racial regen + fungi + regrowth. Got it.


He has the Iksar Shaman Regenerate 1441 health over 188 seconds, which isn't possible. A level 58 Shaman is regenerating 16 sitting + 15 regrowth = 31 HP per tick assuming perfect sits on tick. 188 seconds is 31 ticks. 31 x 31 = 961 HP.

You're missing fungi regen.

46 * 31 = 1426 which is oddly 15 less than 1441 but pretty close.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're missing fungi regen.
46 * 31 = 1426 which is oddly 15 less than 1441 but pretty close.


Ah he actually used Fungi Tunic in his example. I wasn't using it in any of my examples. If he want's to include it, I'll redo my calculations. I also noticed a few flaws in my math from my previous post. I'll fix them here:

Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 726 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 6 Mana spent on overhead from casting Mortal Deftness 1x per hour

Total HP Spent: 594
Total Mana Spent: 159
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 48 seconds to recover 168 mana and 288 HP.

180 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)

Total HP Gained: 1456
Total Mana Spent: 663
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 663 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained.

188 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of pet HP while pulling. This assumes no spell resists, root breaks, getting hit by the mob, or missing canni dance ticks during combat.

The Iksar who is root/rotting has an increased opportunity cost in getting spell resists, as they are casting 3 high mana value spells per battle over the Ogre with JBB. JBB has a zero mana cost associated with it being resisted. The Iksar who is root rotting has a significant increase in the chances of a root break, which means spending HP/Mana to re-root. The Iksar also has increased chance of fizzling. This is why an Ogre with JBB ends up beating out a root/rotting Iksar Shaman. The reduction in RnG coupled with the JBB Shaman's ability to still regenerate quickly out of combat while pulling allows for a more consistent play style that is less likely to get interrupted by bad luck. You end up saving quite a bit of mana from not getting spell resists on your 300+ mana DoTs and re-rooting mobs.

[sajbert]

Then the iksar gets an Epic and starts rootrotting 2-7 targets at a time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Then the iksar gets an Epic and starts rootrotting 2-7 targets at a time.

Sure, Epic is better than JBB for leveling. But it is also 4x more expensive and no drop. It's easier for a Shaman to self fund a JBB and level to 60. You also want to prioritize buying Torpor at 60, which means using resellable items like Fungi Tunic and JBB to level. Being level 60 with Epic and no money for Torpor sucks.

It's better to be level 60 with Torpor and no Epic than being level 60 with Epic and no Torpor.

[Danth]

....

Main thing I gather, with the specific purpose of this thread in mind, is the Iksar or other non-Jaundice shaman can down the targets at approximately the same rate, just have to do a bit more work to do so. Bracer does make a good case for itself as a labor-saving device. The estimated 8-10 sec or so difference is close enough as to be not particularly significant. For the purpose of the casual reader that does count, I think, as broadly equivalent capability and should reassure the iksar player that he isn't seriously harming himself in not having that item.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Main thing I gather, with the specific purpose of this thread in mind, is the Iksar or other non-Jaundice shaman can down the targets at approximately the same rate, just have to do a bit more work to do so. Bracer does make a good case for itself as a labor-saving device. The estimated 8-10 sec or so difference is close enough as to be not particularly significant. For the purpose of the casual reader that does count, I think, as broadly equivalent capability and should reassure the iksar player that he isn't seriously harming himself in not having that item.

For the purposes of this thread we did indeed answer OP's question on page 1:

As Toxigen said, JBB isn't necessary for any endgame content.

I still use mine at 60, JBB isn't just for powerleveling. Saving spell slots is always very nice on a Shaman.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=umuVBewCNgY - An example of using JBB on Cliff Golems. I did 5000ish damage with JBB, which is 1/6th of it's life.

The mathematical details of leveling with JBB https://project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671709&postcount=457 are presented to counter Troxx's incorrect idea that JBB is only good to level with from 45-51. Using PoM rat maze as an example shows JBB still has the edge over root rotting when it comes to leveling from 55-60, even when comparing an Ogre to an Iksar. JBB would be even faster on a Troll compared to an Iksar, since they get regen and JBB. Barbarian would be faster too with the XP bonus they get and JBB.

With that said, nobody should worry. If you pick a race that levels slower because you like the way they look, you are already satisfied with the tradeoff. All races can level to 60 just fine.

[Troxx]

stuff stuff stuff stuff
Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.

Ogre with JBB
=============
stuff stuff stuff stuff

Total HP Spent: 594
Total Mana Spent: 159
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 48 seconds to recover 168 mana and 288 HP.

180 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)

Stuff stuff stuff stuff

Total HP Gained: 1456
Total Mana Spent: 663
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 663 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained.
stuff stuff stuff stuff

Your analysis of the math that you did remains deeply flawed. The actual calculations (ie 132 seconds = 1320 damage at 10dps) seems to be just fine. Hear me out.
-We'll take your numbers at face value (well most of them)
-I won't dispute your DPS claims from deciding to use https://wiki.project1999.com/Blight,_Hammer_of_the_Scourge instead of a 1 hander and shield.
-We will ignore the flaws in your math regarding the expectations in the dps contribution from a dot proc on a weapon that bcbrown addressed here https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671656&postcount=446
-I won't even point out that your decision to NOT use a shield WILL mean that you WILL take more damage on average, over time, than if you had used a shield.
-I also will ignore the fact that when you attack a mob from the front you WILL take ripostes, which will cause you to take more damage and not clicking attack at all.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt on all those actual things that your post glosses over. Let us simply look at the numbers you posted.

Note: I cut out large parts of your post and replaced with "stuff stuff stuff stuff" simply to save space. Let us simply look at your numbers.

Ogre fight:
Time: 132 seconds
Net health loss: 594
Net mana loss: irrelevant because it will take you longer to recover the health than the mana you spent.

At the end of the fight this Ogre shaman was down Five Hundred and Ninety-Four health. An Ogre shaman sitting on their keister with regrowth and a fungi tunic will regenerate exactly 36 health per tick. It will take 16.5 ticks of sitting down to recover 594 health. That's 99 seconds - not 48 seconds. If you stand up after 48 seconds of sitting down - you healed 288hp, not 594.

You are still missing more than half the health you lost over the course of the fight.

180 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling

The "last bit of HP" you are glossing over is actually more than half of the hp you lost. If you were to pull immediately at the end of each 180 second fight, you'd be losing close to 300 health per fight ... fight after fight. Remember, we're soloing here so this doesn't mean that you are at 100% health and 100% mana at the start of every fight and refusing to pull until you are again 100/100. You could start each fight at 90% ... or 80% health/mana. We're xp grinding here, not soloing WW dragons.

How long is the actual recover time to the "break even" point?
Ogre with JBB = 232 seconds.
Troll/iksar letting pet tank = 188 seconds (won't dispute that - same exact numbers I found)

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671598&postcount=430

Already did the dotting shaman math for you. Admittedly, in my calculations the pet remains down 470hp which would take 11 further ticks (66 seconds) to fully recover to neutral ground but the troll/iksar had a net positive in mana and could cover that gap with a single cast of https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671598&postcount=430 after the next mob is pulled/prepped with a portion of the surplus mana from the previous fight. Again, the pet is also regenning 45 health per tick and the shaman will be taking a few swings as first dot is landing and the first root cast is firing.

--------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

I will say that I am proud of you. You have actually wiggled on this. Your conclusions have already shifted quite largely - and this is highly unusual for you. Perhaps, unlike most DSM threads, progress has been made?

Your first analysis showed a big gap between the two favoring the JBB. I showed you math that proved you wrong. You adopted a different and more practical approach (ie the one I used to prove you wrong) while adding in the wild card of using the 2h proc weapon.

The result?

Well geeze-luhwheeze that massive gap you used to show ain't there anymore and now it's only 180 seconds vs 188 seconds ... never mind the fact that you're still glossing over the fact your JBB shaman is 300 health behind where he started ... ya know ... cause "I'll just regenerate that last bit of HP while pulling"

When you lost 594hp and only regenerated 288hp while meditating your mana, you're still 306hp in the hole. 306hp is technically a majority of the health (ie more than half) you lost in the fight, not just a "last little bit of HP".

At 60 you may look at 306hp and say "well that's not much" .. but dig deep and remember those days before torpor. Thats a substantial amount of hp to lose per mob when grinding xp. Even counting the hp you do regen back while getting the next mob in camp ... 8-10 mobs into your xp grinding session you are going to find yourself at a state of:

Mana = neutral
HP = almost completely out

Sooner or later you will have to take either one really long ass break ... or you will have to admit that the actual fight to fight recovery time is a full 51 seconds longer than you care to admit currently.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/5iXomuvuRQ4AAAAC/drop-the-mic-obama-mic-drop.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You are still missing more than half the health you lost over the course of the fight.


Troxx is flailing, as usual. Remember when you said this earlier?


1-59 you never should be full health when things are happening. If you’re full health, you’re converting it to mana. If you’re full mana, you should be doing something with that mana.


A smart Shaman pre Torpor is not getting to 100% HP and Mana before pulling. You are just padding recovery time in a sad attempt to win. Why would the Shaman wait the full amount of time when they are getting 33 HP/tick while standing?

The JBB Shaman only needs 8 ticks to recover the remainder with their regen while standing. In a place like PoM rat Maze you can often times run around for 30 seconds or more before finding the next rat and bringing it back to your pet. The respawn time is 72 minutes in PoM, and spawns are somewhat far apart often times.

You also forget that a JBB Shaman can cast a 30 mana root and have their pet tank for a few ticks. Root will break from JBB, but you only need a small respite. You yourself advocated for the 30 mana root! Two ticks from regen and 12 seconds of not taking damage would be 180 hp recovered when needed. That single root from time to time will not affect your overall progess, as you are also recovering 10 mana a minute while running around pulling.

Mic drop indeed. You have tried to do math this thread, which is an improvement. You even stopped trolling from time to time. Thanks! But you still lost. Please admit it for once. You are the one who never admits to being wrong.

[Infectious]

Your analysis of the math that you did remains deeply flawed. The actual calculations (ie 132 seconds = 1320 damage at 10dps) seems to be just fine. Hear me out.
-We'll take your numbers at face value (well most of them)
-I won't dispute your DPS claims from deciding to use https://wiki.project1999.com/Blight,_Hammer_of_the_Scourge instead of a 1 hander and shield.
-We will ignore the flaws in your math regarding the expectations in the dps contribution from a dot proc on a weapon that bcbrown addressed here https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671656&postcount=446
-I won't even point out that your decision to NOT use a shield WILL mean that you WILL take more damage on average, over time, than if you had used a shield.
-I also will ignore the fact that when you attack a mob from the front you WILL take ripostes, which will cause you to take more damage and not clicking attack at all.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt on all those actual things that your post glosses over. Let us simply look at the numbers you posted.

Note: I cut out large parts of your post and replaced with "stuff stuff stuff stuff" simply to save space. Let us simply look at your numbers.

Ogre fight:
Time: 132 seconds
Net health loss: 594
Net mana loss: irrelevant because it will take you longer to recover the health than the mana you spent.

At the end of the fight this Ogre shaman was down Five Hundred and Ninety-Four health. An Ogre shaman sitting on their keister with regrowth and a fungi tunic will regenerate exactly 36 health per tick. It will take 16.5 ticks of sitting down to recover 594 health. That's 99 seconds - not 48 seconds. If you stand up after 48 seconds of sitting down - you healed 288hp, not 594.

You are still missing more than half the health you lost over the course of the fight.



The "last bit of HP" you are glossing over is actually more than half of the hp you lost. If you were to pull immediately at the end of each 180 second fight, you'd be losing close to 300 health per fight ... fight after fight. Remember, we're soloing here so this doesn't mean that you are at 100% health and 100% mana at the start of every fight and refusing to pull until you are again 100/100. You could start each fight at 90% ... or 80% health/mana. We're xp grinding here, not soloing WW dragons.

How long is the actual recover time to the "break even" point?
Ogre with JBB = 232 seconds.
Troll/iksar letting pet tank = 188 seconds (won't dispute that - same exact numbers I found)

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671598&postcount=430

Already did the dotting shaman math for you. Admittedly, in my calculations the pet remains down 470hp which would take 11 further ticks (66 seconds) to fully recover to neutral ground but the troll/iksar had a net positive in mana and could cover that gap with a single cast of https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671598&postcount=430 after the next mob is pulled/prepped with a portion of the surplus mana from the previous fight. Again, the pet is also regenning 45 health per tick and the shaman will be taking a few swings as first dot is landing and the first root cast is firing.

--------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------

I will say that I am proud of you. You have actually wiggled on this. Your conclusions have already shifted quite largely - and this is highly unusual for you. Perhaps, unlike most DSM threads, progress has been made?

Your first analysis showed a big gap between the two favoring the JBB. I showed you math that proved you wrong. You adopted a different and more practical approach (ie the one I used to prove you wrong) while adding in the wild card of using the 2h proc weapon.

The result?

Well geeze-luhwheeze that massive gap you used to show ain't there anymore and now it's only 180 seconds vs 188 seconds ... never mind the fact that you're still glossing over the fact your JBB shaman is 300 health behind where he started ... ya know ... cause "I'll just regenerate that last bit of HP while pulling"

When you lost 594hp and only regenerated 288hp while meditating your mana, you're still 306hp in the hole. 306hp is technically a majority of the health (ie more than half) you lost in the fight, not just a "last little bit of HP".

At 60 you may look at 306hp and say "well that's not much" .. but dig deep and remember those days before torpor. Thats a substantial amount of hp to lose per mob when grinding xp. Even counting the hp you do regen back while getting the next mob in camp ... 8-10 mobs into your xp grinding session you are going to find yourself at a state of:

Mana = neutral
HP = almost completely out

Sooner or later you will have to take either one really long ass break ... or you will have to admit that the actual fight to fight recovery time is a full 51 seconds longer than you care to admit currently.

https://media1.tenor.com/m/5iXomuvuRQ4AAAAC/drop-the-mic-obama-mic-drop.gif

I guess this means DSM is the troll and uses napkin math to convince himself he is right.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I guess this means DSM is the troll and uses napkin math to convince himself he is right.

Incorrect. Troxx is the one who did that, by pretending that he didn't claim earlier that Shamans should never be at 100% HP and Mana before they get Torpor. This is correct, but he cannot then turn around and claim a JBB Shaman who is leveling must sit and wait to recover until 100% HP when they have Regrowth + Fungi Tunic, which is 33 HP per tick standing. He is contradicting himself to pad for time, because he cannot admit when he is wrong. Troxx also continues to completely ignore root breaks, spell resists, missing sitting ticks in combat, and occasional damage taken by the DoTing Shaman, which increases their overall time too. He cannot simply assume the worst case for JBB Shamans, while assuming the best case for DoTing Shamans.

Just to put the final nail on the coffin, I'll adjust this a bit to ensure Troxx doesn't try and weasel his way out. When I was in PoM Rat maze I never needed to actually use a root on occasion to heal, as the pull times allowed me to fully recover between fights.

Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 726 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 6 Mana spent on overhead from casting Mortal Deftness 1x per hour
- 30 Mana spent on 1x root to prevent 80-160 damage, depending on if JBB breaks root or not. Average of 120 HP saved. It is 80-160 because each cast of JBB is 8 seconds, so you won't get the attempted DD break until it lands. You could save more HP per battle as well if you get lucky, but I'll just ignore that for argument's sake.

Total HP Spent: 474
Total Mana Spent: 189
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 56 seconds to recover 189 mana and 324 HP.

188 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling. Shaman is down 150 HP, which is recoverable in 4 ticks while pulling. This is a very reasonable pull time. Shamans do not want to be at 100% HP/Mana pre Torpor. Since Shamans are still recovering 1 mana per tick while standing, you will get enough mana for occasional roots when you need to recover a bit more.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 75 Mana spent on Chloroblasting the pet every other fight
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)

Total HP Gained: 1456
Total Mana Spent: 738
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 738 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained.

188 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of pet HP while pulling. This assumes no spell resists, root breaks, getting hit by the mob, or missing sitting ticks during combat.

The Iksar who is root/rotting has an increased opportunity cost in getting spell resists, as they are casting 3 high mana value spells per battle over the Ogre with JBB. JBB has a zero mana cost associated with it being resisted. The Iksar will take damage occasionally from root breaks as well, which isn't taken into account in the math above. The Iksar Shaman also has to constantly hit every single sitting server tick, or they will lose efficiency.

This is why an Ogre with JBB ends up beating out a root/rotting Iksar Shaman. The simplified playstyle of the JBB Shaman gives you numerous bonuses, while not detracting at all from kill speed. You end up saving more mana and time in the long run from not having to worry about DoTs being resisted, root breaking and taking damage, missing sitting server ticks in combat, etc.

Claiming JBB is only a good leveling tool from 45-51 is clearly nonsense, and Troxx needs to stop posting his incorrect idea and admit he is wrong.

[Duik]

Someone needs to pick up all dem mics.

[Ripqozko]

I feel bad for kittens having to deal with DSM on the daily

[Troxx]

lol so we have gone from:

-JBB is the undeniably faster and the math irrefutably proves it!

To …

-JBB is 180 seconds and I’ll ignore I’m still missing 300hp and dot is 188 seconds

To …

-they’re both 188 seconds!


———————
———————————

I’m so proud of you DSM. You are showing an extraordinary amount of personal growth.

Keep it up!

[bcbrown]

I am perfectly fine with you using any math terminology you want. Claiming that I don't like math terminology is just silly, and sounds like an insult.

Fair enough, it does sound a bit like an insult. I'm just responding to what you said previously:

Third, his math is not actually impressive, as he makes mistakes often. His tactic is to use math terms that most people don't know in an attempt to impress.

I took that as insulting, and responded in kind. But I do try my best to avoid personal insults, so I apologize for the passive-aggressive phrasing.

You have a pattern of pushing back on my points, while never pushing back on other people's points. I don't mind the push back, but I find it odd you ignore all of the mathematical flaws in Troxx's post or others posts on a consistent basis. If you were being unbiased and genuinely trying to find the answer to the problem, you should statistically push back on other posters occasionally.

You're right, I do almost exclusively respond to you on this forum. That's for a couple of reasons. First, you're one of the very few people to provide mathematical reasoning, and as I really really like math, I sometimes get excited about the opportunity to apply math to a video game I quite enjoy. Second, I find your math to frequently contain mistakes, and my inner pedant feels compelled to supply corrections. Third, I suspect that you frequently work backwards from conclusion to reasoning; for example, I pointed out that you forgot to take into account around 6300 mana from meditating for the root rot approach, which changes the conclusion from 11781 mana saved (Iksar Root Rotting) vs. 13825 (JBB) to 18081 mana saved (Iksar Root Rotting) vs. 13825 (JBB). Instead of accepting that conclusion, you changed the scenarios in order to continue showing the JBB strategy as better. That really bugs me.

But if you ever come across someone using mathematics and you'd like me to provide a close reasoning to confirm accuracy, I'm always willing to do so. Just shoot me a DM.

Jesus christ.

Mr brown is the most placating human on the boards. Yet you find fault in his approach to you.
He is (could have been before that post) virtually your best friend here.

Cheers mate!

But, he's right; I've earned his distrust. It's true that I almost solely respond to him, almost always disputing something he said, and I have indeed at times been snide, churlish, insinuating, even acrimonious, disputatious, impudent, peevish, truculent, and certainly unrelenting. But hopefully not too often sanctimonious or disparaging.

At least you have the courtesy to always act like a troll though!

Would you prefer I cease my attempts at constructive engagement?

Regardless of how you may feel about me, I decided to go ahead and do the math of the actual expected DPS of the Scourge proc, and it came out lower than I expected - 0.75 DPS. I can provide the calculations if you wish - it's a little hairy, so the skeptical eye of someone with some mathematical facility would be quite welcome.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

lol so we have gone from:

-JBB is the undeniably faster and the math irrefutably proves it!

To …

-JBB is 180 seconds and I’ll ignore I’m still missing 300hp and dot is 188 seconds

To …

-they’re both 188 seconds!


———————
———————————

I’m so proud of you DSM. You are showing an extraordinary amount of personal growth.

Keep it up!

You clearly didn't read my last post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671741&postcount=465 - I made a minor adjustment by adding a single root into the equation to reduce the damage taken to 150, which is easily recoverable while pulling. You cannot claim that Shamans should not be at 100% HP while also claiming they must sit and recover to 100% HP before you get Torpor. I personally never needed to use root while in rat maze to fully recover between pulls. You are also ignoring all the factors that slow down the DoTing Shaman to make them look better.

Unlike yourself I have always been able to adjust to the data. Will you actually have some personal growth and admit you were wrong, instead of continue to troll? In the end you were still wrong. JBB even in an Ogre's hands is still better for leveling from 45-60 when taking into account spell resists, root breaks, damage taken from root breaks, etc. For yourself who has a troll, JBB would be even faster than DoTing. Your claim that it is only a good leveling tool from 45-51 is still false. You have yet to prove otherwise.


for example, I pointed out that you forgot to take into account around 6300 mana from meditating for the root rot approach


You did point out a flaw in my math, and I appreciate that! I also admitted I was wrong there, contrary to the strawman claiming I never do so. But you tend to ignore when I do the same thing to your math. The fact that you are often using averages incorrectly is something you tend to do, but don't want to admit for some reason. If this was a fair exchange, you would also improve yourself. This is why I say your math isn't that impressive. You are making mistakes too, and you are refusing to admit them. Combined with your insistence that you seem to be better at math than others, it comes off very arrogant.


Would you prefer I cease my attempts at constructive engagement?


I would prefer if you were consistent. Ignoring all other posters and focusing on me tends to support the trolls who are doing the same thing, which isn't helping these forums or the discussion. If Troxx has a flaw in their math, then point it out so it doesn't look so one sided. He factually had flaws in his math too, which were ignored by yourself. In the end Troxx was still wrong, but you didn't help him at all in showing him why he is wrong.

[Duik]

At this point the water is so muddy only an axolotl can see the answer. So iksar wins.
Fuck im good.

[Infectious]

Incorrect. Troxx is the one who did that, by pretending that he didn't claim earlier that Shamans should never be at 100% HP and Mana before they get Torpor. This is correct, but he cannot then turn around and claim a JBB Shaman who is leveling must sit and wait to recover until 100% HP when they have Regrowth + Fungi Tunic, which is 33 HP per tick standing. He is contradicting himself to pad for time, because he cannot admit when he is wrong. Troxx also continues to completely ignore root breaks, spell resists, missing sitting ticks in combat, and occasional damage taken by the DoTing Shaman, which increases their overall time too. He cannot simply assume the worst case for JBB Shamans, while assuming the best case for DoTing Shamans.

Just to put the final nail on the coffin, I'll adjust this a bit to ensure Troxx doesn't try and weasel his way out. When I was in PoM Rat maze I never needed to actually use a root on occasion to heal, as the pull times allowed me to fully recover between fights.

Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 726 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 6 Mana spent on overhead from casting Mortal Deftness 1x per hour
- 30 Mana spent on 1x root to prevent 80-160 damage, depending on if JBB breaks root or not. Average of 120 HP saved. It is 80-160 because each cast of JBB is 8 seconds, so you won't get the attempted DD break until it lands. You could save more HP per battle as well if you get lucky, but I'll just ignore that for argument's sake.

Total HP Spent: 474
Total Mana Spent: 189
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 56 seconds to recover 189 mana and 324 HP.

188 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling. Shaman is down 150 HP, which is recoverable in 4 ticks while pulling. This is a very reasonable pull time. Shamans do not want to be at 100% HP/Mana pre Torpor. Since Shamans are still recovering 1 mana per tick while standing, you will get enough mana for occasional roots when you need to recover a bit more.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 75 Mana spent on Chloroblasting the pet every other fight
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)

Total HP Gained: 1456
Total Mana Spent: 738
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 738 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained.

188 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of pet HP while pulling. This assumes no spell resists, root breaks, getting hit by the mob, or missing sitting ticks during combat.

The Iksar who is root/rotting has an increased opportunity cost in getting spell resists, as they are casting 3 high mana value spells per battle over the Ogre with JBB. JBB has a zero mana cost associated with it being resisted. The Iksar will take damage occasionally from root breaks as well, which isn't taken into account in the math above. The Iksar Shaman also has to constantly hit every single sitting server tick, or they will lose efficiency.

This is why an Ogre with JBB ends up beating out a root/rotting Iksar Shaman. The simplified playstyle of the JBB Shaman gives you numerous bonuses, while not detracting at all from kill speed. You end up saving more mana and time in the long run from not having to worry about DoTs being resisted, root breaking and taking damage, missing sitting server ticks in combat, etc.

Claiming JBB is only a good leveling tool from 45-51 is clearly nonsense, and Troxx needs to stop posting his incorrect idea and admit he is wrong.

Math doesn't show mobs hp regen. Only 1 root break, on a mob with 7k hp and casting the bracer 20+ times?

Let's edit that post another 2-3 times til we get it right. Troll!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Math doesn't show mobs hp regen. Only 1 root break, on a mob with 7k hp and casting the bracer 20+ times?


I've brought up these points, and they are all a problem for the DoTing Shaman, not the JBB Shaman. That is why JBB ends up being better.

1. When it comes to mob regen, JBB spamming is higher DPS on average than the DoTing strategy. Chances are the fight would last longer on the DoTing Shaman's side if mob regen did end up extending the fight for a few seconds. The fight is longer (more regen occurs), and all of the DoT's would have worn off in Troxx's example by the end. If they needed to cast another damage spell to speed up the fight, then they would also have some extra recovery time at the end.

2. I agree root breaks are a problem. I've said so many times, even in the post you quoted lol. That is why the JBB Shaman only assumed that the root would last 8-16 seconds at best. The only side ignoring root breaks is Troxx, because he wants to make root rotting look better. His assumption is that root never breaks and damage is never taken from a root break, which is obviously incorrect. This would slow down the DoTing Shaman, while not affecting the JBB Shaman. The JBB Shaman does not need to root every fight. I just threw it in every fight to show Troxx that you can significantly reduce the remaining damage per fight if needed. Personally I never needed to use root and pet tanking to recover after a fight in PoM rat maze. I only used root for parking adds away from me.

3. Spell resists are low on trash mobs. You don't even need to malo them. An occasional resist on JBB is really not a big deal. You just need to spend 8 more seconds casting it. Conversely, getting a resist on a DoT means you are down a full 300 mana, and now need to spend extra recovery time in-between fights. They would need to spend 6 seconds casting the DoT again, plus recovering the 300 mana, which takes longer. This again slows down the DoT Shaman.

As of this post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671741&postcount=465 - Troxx is still wrong, even after all the back and forth. JBB is better than root rotting from 45-60 on all shaman races that can use it. Ogres will still level faster from 45-60 with it than an Iksar would leveling from 45-60 with root/rotting and without Epic.

Hopefully he will finally admit he is wrong about something.

[Duik]

Lmfao.
Discretely Shifting Messages quite a few times I see. I didnt notice you (did it) until troxx mentioned it 76 pages back.
Just cursory glances i noticed edits at 12:10pm and 12:12pm Aussie Eastern Daylight Savings Time. (Shared with Vladivostok and Guam of all places) .
Maybe use the time you edit to read and re read ya posts to not look so befuddled? I dunno. Also editing posts is fine but you do infact do it EVERY FUCKING TIME.
Are you ok? Like really?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lmfao.
Discretely Shifting Messages quite a few times I see. I didnt notice you (did it) until troxx mentioned it 76 pages back.
Just cursory glances i noticed edits at 12:10pm and 12:12pm Aussie Eastern Daylight Savings Time. (Shared with Vladivostok and Guam of all places) .
Maybe use the time you edit to read and re read ya posts to not look so befuddled? I dunno. Also editing posts is fine but you do infact do it EVERY FUCKING TIME.
Are you ok? Like really?

If trolls stopped trolling and lying about what I've said in the past, I wouldn't need to edit my posts.

Stop the trolling, and I will stop the editing!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

One more nail in the coffin.


Admittedly, in my calculations the pet remains down 470hp which would take 11 further ticks (66 seconds) to fully recover to neutral ground but the troll/iksar had a net positive in mana and could cover that gap with a single cast of [chloroblast].

You are ready to go and can toss a chloroblast on your pet to have the pet “broken even” on health.


Adjusting the calculations to take into account using 1x Chloroblast on the pet every time:

Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 726 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 6 Mana spent on overhead from casting Mortal Deftness 1x per hour
- 30 Mana spent on 1x root to prevent 80-160 damage, depending on if JBB breaks root or not. Average of 120 HP saved. It is 80-160 because each cast of JBB is 8 seconds, so you won't get the attempted DD break until it lands. You could save more HP per battle as well if you get lucky, but I'll just ignore that for argument's sake.

Total HP Spent: 474
Total Mana Spent: 189
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 56 seconds to recover 189 mana and 324 HP.

188 Seconds per encounter, Shaman is down 150 HP, which is recoverable in 4 ticks while pulling. This is a very reasonable pull time. Shamans do not want to be at 100% HP/Mana pre Torpor. Since Shamans are still recovering 1 mana per tick while standing, you will get enough mana for occasional roots when you need to recover a bit more.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)
- 175 Mana spent on Chloroblast for pet to counter the damage above

Total HP Gained: 1456
Total Mana Spent: 838
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 838 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained with only 150 damage taken from cannibalize.

188 Seconds per encounter, Shaman is down 148 HP and 20 mana by using Canni 3 2x to make up for the 96 mana not covered by the HP gained. This assumes no spell resists, root breaks, getting hit by the mob, or missing sitting ticks during combat.

The Iksar who is root/rotting has an increased opportunity cost in getting spell resists, as they are casting 3 high mana value spells per battle over the Ogre with JBB. JBB has a zero mana cost associated with it being resisted. The Iksar will take damage occasionally from root breaks as well, which isn't taken into account in the math above. The Iksar Shaman also has to constantly hit every single sitting server tick, or they will lose efficiency.

This is why an Ogre with JBB ends up beating out a root/rotting Iksar Shaman. The simplified playstyle of the JBB Shaman gives you numerous bonuses, while not detracting at all from kill speed. You end up saving more mana and time in the long run from not having to worry about DoTs being resisted, root breaking and taking damage, missing sitting server ticks in combat, etc.

Claiming JBB is only a good leveling tool from 45-51 is clearly nonsense, and Troxx needs to stop posting his incorrect idea and admit he is wrong.

[bcbrown]

Could you update the Scourge proc to 0.75 DPS? I can provide calculations if you'd like.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Could you update the Scourge proc to 0.75 DPS? I can provide calculations if you'd like.

Regardless of whether your calculation is correct, we can take a look. 51.55 DPS instead of 53 DPS would add 4 seconds to the fight, or 40 extra damage taken on the JBB Shaman.

Just so we do not quibble over a few points here and there, 2x Canni 3 only recovers 76 points of mana, so the DoT Shaman would also be down 20 mana, which is 40 HP converted. You would need to spend 6 seconds to meditate 1 extra tick to cover that, so you aren't gaining time either.

Of course we still aren't taking into account root breaks, root break damage, fizzles, spell resists, mob regen, etc. on the DoTing Shaman, which weakens them further.

Will you agree that Troxx is incorrect now?

[bcbrown]

You've shown that the expected time is almost identical. Root rotting will have more unlucky random bad luck. JBB will be significantly more expensive - plus the proc weapon and the dex gear.

Personally, if I could afford a JBB, I'd buy it, level myself up to the low 50s, then sell it when I could afford a fungi. If anyone wants to loan me a JBB for a month, I'd be happy to report back on my in-game conclusions.

If I had unlimited plat, yeah, I'd try both out and see what fits my playstyle. I've spoken before of my dislike of root rotting.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You've shown that the expected time is almost identical. Root rotting will have more unlucky random bad luck. JBB will be significantly more expensive - plus the proc weapon and the dex gear.

Personally, if I could afford a JBB, I'd buy it, level myself up to the low 50s, then sell it when I could afford a fungi. If anyone wants to loan me a JBB for a month, I'd be happy to report back on my in-game conclusions.

If I had unlimited plat, yeah, I'd try both out and see what fits my playstyle. I've spoken before of my dislike of root rotting.

With the bad luck the JBB ends up being faster. Saving mana and hp per hour over non JBB is going to be better. Remeber we are comparing a non-regen race to a regen-race too. Troll would be faster, not identical. Same with Barbarian, due to the xp bonus.

Lucky for you Shamans are great at farming plat. Making 60k by the time you get to your 50s is not difficult. Buy JBB, farm faster with it, buy fungi, use both to 60. Sell them both to get Torpor.

[bcbrown]

I think my shaman is 47-49, with about 4k in the bank, still wearing mostly Totemic. Perhaps you're right, but for a new player who doesn't know where the good cash camps are while leveling, I can report from personal experience that 60k by 50 is not realistic.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Gackles

Regardless, I'm playing Green these days. Made a ton more plat on my druid than I did on Blue, because I learned about Hill Giants and Crystal Caverns geonids. Still only got about 6k in bank at 49, still rocking the raw-hide cloak.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think my shaman is 47-49, with about 4k in the bank, still wearing mostly Totemic. Perhaps you're right, but for a new player who doesn't know where the good cash camps are while leveling, I can report from personal experience that 60k by 50 is not realistic.

https://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Gackles

Regardless, I'm playing Green these days. Made a ton more plat on my druid than I did on Blue, because I learned about Hill Giants and Crystal Caverns geonids. Still only got about 6k in bank at 49, still rocking the raw-hide cloak.

Glad to hear it! The trick is to kill guards. Very consistent plat and XP all the way to 55. Can always go back to guards that green out too if you need some extra. HGs are nice, but I think they nerfed them a few years back. Less spawns.

[Duik]

Guard killing while generating good platz is lame as fuck and my druid only did gnome and human freport guards a few times. But that is just me. Its not how id like to play. But you do you.
I mean a necro killing felwith guards is maybe within the scope hunting.
Bcbrowns experience is similar to mine. 10's of thousands of platz dont come with my (our?) gameplay styles. Time vs adventure vs roleplay etc.
I dont expect a maximum min/maxer to understand such inefficiencies.
Cheese is the term that comes to mind when i see you "adventuring" to your next cash camp.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Guard killing while generating good platz is lame as fuck and my druid only did gnome and human freport guards a few times. But that is just me. Its not how id like to play. But you do you.
I mean a necro killing felwith guards is maybe within the scope hunting.
Bcbrowns experience is similar to mine. 10's of thousands of platz dont come with my (our?) gameplay styles. Time vs adventure vs roleplay etc.
I dont expect a maximum min/maxer to understand such inefficiencies.
Cheese is the term that comes to mind when i see you "adventuring" to your next cash camp.

I am not forcing you to play a certain way. You do you! I am just giving people the facts of the game. They can decide what to do with them.

[Duik]

I know! You have said this elevety seven times in numerous threads.
Thank you for repeatedly pointing this factual fact out.
Also for saving the trolls from themselves. By pointing out how wrong they are, thereby saving us noobs from le bad information.

One of these camps has to stop. Clearly the trolls wont stop. They (we?) are too childish to do it. So it remains that the adults in the room adult up and leave it alone after "winning".
Stopping your posts after you win does not make the trolls right or you wrong, but it does make you look all growed up.
Think of it like this.
NewbieA: Wow that DSM fella really knows his stuff AND knows also when to stop feeding the trolls.
NewbieB: Yes oh my, is it a little hot in here? What a guy.

Food for thought. Not food for trolls.

Lame on, lamo!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I know! You have said this elevety seven times in numerous threads.
Thank you for repeatedly pointing this factual fact out.
Also for saving the trolls from themselves. By pointing out how wrong they are, thereby saving us noobs from le bad information.

One of these camps has to stop. Clearly the trolls wont stop. They (we?) are too childish to do it. So it remains that the adults in the room adult up and leave it alone after "winning".
Stopping your posts after you win does not make the trolls right or you wrong, but it does make you look all growed up.
Think of it like this.
NewbieA: Wow that DSM fella really knows his stuff AND knows also when to stop feeding the trolls.
NewbieB: Yes oh my, is it a little hot in here? What a guy.

Food for thought. Not food for trolls.

Lame on, lamo!

The trolls can stop whenever they want. You are choosing to troll.

Providing bad information and bloating threads with nonsense is helping nobody.

Why do you do it?

[Duik]

Feeding it is.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Feeding it is.

The more troll posts you make, the easier it is for people to see who the trolls are. You aren't hurting me, or helping yourself. You are discrediting yourself further.

You are hurting the community and other people who are trying to find information on the game. Please stop.

[Duik]

Im not trying to hurt you. Im trying to help you be the adult in the room.
You shit up thread after thread with the same ole "im just trying to give everyone the correct factual facts and to save the bad naughty trolls from looking bad."

I get it. We all get it. But at some point someone needs to stop. You get that right? Like eventually this has been answered and move on so future newbs searching this same question dont see a shit metric tonne of posts saying THE SAME DAMN THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
You post wall after wall of factual facts saying the same thing while getting in a solid jab against the latest troll.
"Im just trying to give the best factual facts and save newbs from the trolls." You see a pattern forming here dont you? You get sarcasm do you not?

Ill simple it up for ya.

The trolls will not stop.
The trolls stopping posting dont make them wrong and you right.
If it is you that stops, it does not make you wrong OR the trolls right.
But if it is you that stops, you will look fabulous and grown up. The trolls will have NOTHING to come back with.
You will be forever known as the Forum Troll Slayer!
Your factual facts will remain as a testament to your factual factness AND the madness will end.

We all win.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Im not trying to hurt you. Im trying to help you be the adult in the room.
You shit up thread after thread with the same ole "im just trying to give everyone the correct factual facts and to save the bad naughty trolls from looking bad."

I get it. We all get it. But at some point someone needs to stop. You get that right? Like eventually this has been answered and move on so future newbs searching this same question dont see a shit metric tonne of posts saying THE SAME DAMN THING OVER AND OVER AGAIN.
You post wall after wall of factual facts saying the same thing while getting in a solid jab against the latest troll.
"Im just trying to give the best factual facts and save newbs from the trolls." You see a pattern forming here dont you? You get sarcasm do you not?

Ill simple it up for ya.

The trolls will not stop.
The trolls stopping posting dont make them wrong and you right.
If it is you that stops, it does not make you wrong OR the trolls right.
But if it is you that stops, you will look fabulous and grown up. The trolls will have NOTHING to come back with.
You will be forever known as the Forum Troll Slayer!
Your factual facts will remain as a testament to your factual factness AND the madness will end.

We all win.

The person "shitting" up the thread is yourself and other trolls. You know how to fix the problem already. Stop troll posting, and encourage other troll posters to do the same. It's that simple. Then we all win indeed.

[Duik]

Ha. You clearly dont fucking understand the troll.
Also you fully fail to understand the adult mind.

Both of those things are ok.
I was just trying to help you. But you clearly dont need help.
Please. Continue.

[Troxx]

Meow

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ha. You clearly dont fucking understand the troll.
Also you fully fail to understand the adult mind.

Both of those things are ok.
I was just trying to help you. But you clearly dont need help.
Please. Continue.

The reality is quite simple. When you stop troll posting, the people calling you out for trolling stop posting too. You are the cause of the problem, and you are the one who can fix it. I am not forcing you to post nonsense.

[Duik]

Yes you are. So there. You stop and I will. Infinity plus one.

[Troxx]

DSM will label anyone who disagrees with him a troll. Now, I'm not sure if he sincerely believes it or if it's just a defensive stunt he pulls when he's at a loss on what else to say or backed in a corner.

Devils Advocate: He sincerely believes it.

How do you actually deal with a troll? You ignore the troll.

https://www.esafety.gov.au/young-people/trolling

In short:

Trolling is when someone deliberately tries to upset others online.
Trolling can lead to a pile on, when others join in the attack.
Don’t feed the trolls – responding is likely to make things worse. Report the abuse instead.

Unfortunately, DSM's definition of trolling falls somewhere between
-Anyone who disagrees with me
-Anyone who agrees with someone who I disagree with
-Anyone who makes fun of me for how I behave/think/post on the internet or the status of the threads where I am an active participant

By that definition ... everyone else WILL be troll, because most intelligent adults will meet one of those 3 criteria.

[Troxx]

As an aside, in my first post in running the math found here:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671575&postcount=416

I was assuming a level 56 shaman. This would imply use of Canni III. When I later flexed to accommodate DSM's specific parameters we were discussing a level 58 shaman hunting 7khp mobs. I never adjusted for Canni III being less efficient and giving about 10% less mana returns compared to Canni IV.

So let's give the shaman not using JBB 10% greater mana returns on regen hp recovered (and thus converted to mana).

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671598&postcount=430

Instead of 720 surplus mana from Canni III, You're looking at ~800 mana from Canni IV. This leaves the 58 shaman not using JBB with closer to 300 mana surplus net at the end of the fight @ 188 seconds. This is more than enough to compensate for the slow/root from each fight and more or less all buff refreshes required over the course of the xp session (pet haste/regen, self regen, etc).

Sorry for overlooking this earlier.

EDIT ADDENDUM: All of which supports my previous posts (most recent here: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671550&postcount=410 ). A notion which DSM said was factually false and could be disproven with napkin math.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM will label anyone who disagrees with him a troll.


As usual, Troxx has no evidence to support his claim I call people trolls who do not deserve to be called trolls. He has a proven track record of making up lies and strawmen about other posters to try and discredit them.

I do have evidence of Troxx being a troll in this very thread:


When Troxx cannot rebut points, he resorts to silly gifs and fake autism medical diagnoses:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670497&postcount=182 - fake medical diagnosis.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670950&postcount=240 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670390&postcount=156 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670385&postcount=151 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3670233&postcount=100 - Silly gif

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3669799&postcount=38 - Silly gif

More trolling and flailing from Troxx when he loses an argument. Typical.


Instead of 720 surplus mana from Canni III, You're looking at ~800 mana from Canni IV. This leaves the 58 shaman not using JBB with closer to 300 mana surplus net at the end of the fight @ 188 seconds. This is more than enough to compensate for the slow/root from each fight and more or less all buff refreshes required over the course of the xp session (pet haste/regen, self regen, etc).

You do not have a 300 mana surplus. This is incorrect. Your previous post https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671598&postcount=430 was missing a number of spells from the calculation like slow and Regrowth for your pet lol, but you were assuming the mob was slowed and your pet had Regen anyway. You also did not properly take into account the mana you lose from missing sitting ticks while casting spells. This is the actual amount of mana you are spending per fight:


- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)
- 175 Mana spent on Chloroblast for pet to counter the damage above

Total HP Gained: 1396
Total Mana Spent: 838
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds


I added the 30 HP lost instead of subtracted it actually, which lowers your total HP saved. Taking that into account here.

Using Cannibalize 4 instead of Cannibalize 3 would result in -84 HP and -18 mana at the end of the fight. You would still need 1 extra tick of meditation to make up for that 18 mana. If you want to rightfully claim that you can miss that tick and pull the next mob, the JBB Shaman can do the same. This means the JBB Shaman is now 6 seconds faster.

I use Cannibalize 3 istead of 4 before Torpor because the faster cast speed makes canni dancing easier. You are less likely to miss the server tick or fail due to a fizzle.

Troxx is still wrong, JBB is better factually speaking for leveling from 45-60 over root/rotting without Epic https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3671759&postcount=476 .

[Troxx]

I've never had a hard time missing a canni-dance tick with Canni IV. Since it hits as hard as you do, you don't even have to do it constantly in this instance - only about 50% of the ticks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I've never had a hard time missing a canni-dance tick with Canni IV. Since it hits as hard as you do, you don't even have to do it constantly in this instance - only about 50% of the ticks.

I see you still didn't address the fact that you missed multiple spells in your calculation to get the "300 mana surplus". Cannibalize has a higher fizzle rate in general, and you can only cast 1 cannibalize 4 per tick with the cast/recast time. This means you are sometimes slower at canni dancing in a specific time period.

[Troxx]

and when you have 188seconds (30 ticks) seconds to cannibalize 1400hp (10 casts) ...

it is not an issue