SK Race Choice

[trees]

Looking for some input

Is Iksar SK worse for end-game solo crawling than other races?
Do the armor clickies account for serious mana saving etc?

[Keebz]

At 60 with raid gear? Not particularly. I use the gloves sometimes to save a little mana and the legs are useful in a pinch. Nothing game breaking. While leveling, though, when you're just trying to kill as many mobs as possible, the mana savings are noticeable.

Overall, I'd say Iksars are solid. Regen is quite good for soloing and offsets Souldefiler nicely. The balanced stats and AC aren't bad either. You gotta live with that broken 2hs animation, though. I personally couldn't do it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The Blood Ember clickies are great mana savers, and are better than Greenmist in terms of utility. Stacking the procs on Epic and Greenmist is not worth it unless you get the extremely lucky scenario where both proc within 6 seconds of each other.

Troll is the better option between the two regen races due to being able to use Blood Ember. Obviously if you really like Iksar and want to play one, go for it. You won't be screwed. You will just have more down time due to medding while soloing 45+.

Blood Ember Greaves are also useful outside of just mana saving. Having a free FD can save you in any situation where you don't have enough mana to FD. Before level 60 Blood Ember Greaves are your only method of FDing multiple times in a row after a failure, due to the standard FD having a fairly long refresh timer. When you hit level 60 you get Death's Peace, which is a fast refresh FD with increased chance of success. But it does cost 120 mana instead of 60, so the pants are still good at saving mana whenever you don't need to cast it.

[strongNpretty]

You go Erudite SK, buy/farm cultural armor, and fuckin win with the best looking outfit in the game.

[Jimjam]

The Blood Ember clickies are great mana savers, and are better than Greenmist in terms of utility. Stacking the procs on Epic and Greenmist is not worth it unless you get the extremely lucky scenario where both proc within 6 seconds of each other.

Troll is the better option between the two regen races due to being able to use Blood Ember. Obviously if you really like Iksar and want to play one, go for it. You won't be screwed. You will just have more down time due to medding while soloing 45+.

Blood Ember Greaves are also useful outside of just mana saving. Having a free FD can save you in any situation where you don't have enough mana to FD. Before level 60 Blood Ember Greaves are your only method of FDing multiple times in a row after a failure, due to the standard FD having a fairly long refresh timer. When you hit level 60 you get Death's Peace, which is a fast refresh FD with increased chance of success. But it does cost 120 mana instead of 60, so the pants are still good at saving mana whenever you don't need to cast it.

I also have a troll SK (52) and get a lot of use out of BE clicks when I play him. I don’t have the full set - iirc i am missing boots.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I also have a troll SK (52) and get a lot of use out of BE clicks when I play him. I don’t have the full set - iirc i am missing boots.

Yeah you should get the boots. Usually you can get like 4 seconds into the cast when the mob is coming back to get you after the fear wears off, so it has a good chance of landing, since regular fear is a 4 second cast. Depends on your Mana/HP ratios at the time. I use the boots a decent amount.

[greatdane]

Iksar is mostly fine in Velious since the Velious armors don't have race restrictions. You do miss out on some useful clickies from Blood Ember pieces, but it isn't something you can't live without. For dungeon crawling in particular, you won't be doing a whole lot of fear-kiting, so lacking access to the free darkness and fear clickies doesn't matter that much. They're definitely good when soloing outdoors, but there are very few places in dungeons where fear-kiting is feasible, so if dungeon crawling is what you have in mind, it's no biggie. The legs are great for pulling but not a significant mana saver, it's more of a plan B for when FD fails or you need to do it repeatedly. You don't generally FD so often that being able to do it for free will have a meaningful impact on your mana sustain. The breastplate clicky is just a nice buff.

The bigger concern is stats. I get the impression that you're not a hardcore high-end raider, and this means that you definitely won't have maxed strength/stamina unbuffed on an iksar. I'd say this matters more than the AC and regen that lizards get. An ogre has 52 more stamina and 60 more strength than an iksar. That has a pretty significant impact on solo performance. The FSI is quite handy as well, though not as much as it was before the changes to bash. If you're keen on regen, trolls have 39 more stamina and 38 more strength than an iksar, which is also quite a bit. That's more stats than an entire set of Velious quest armor gives, even the Skyshrine one.

Personally, I think intelligence is irrelevant unless you're trying to truly push the limits of what an SK can solo and are actually spending an entire mana pool in one fight. For any ordinary kind of soloing, it almost never matters how big your mana pool is because you're either never at full mana or you never spend it all in one go. It's like getting a 10% bigger gas tank for your car when you never drive more than ten miles in a day. The only time the size of your gas tank ever matters is if you need to drive as far as you possibly can without ever stopping to refill. I can't even think of anything an SK can do solo where that would be relevant, it's not like you're gonna be soloing cliff golems and shit. The hardest thing I've ever heard of an SK soloing is one of the WW dragons, and in the video the guy posted of it, he didn't even spend all his mana. And that was a troll. Besides, the difference in mana pool between the dumbest race and the smartest is the equivalent of like one or two lifetaps, so it's not like it has any serious impact on what you'll be able to do. People who say it's important are just trying to sound like they know more than everyone else.

[Crede]

Lack of BE clickies is significant. You’re saving at minimum 120 mana a split. I fear kited like crazy in dungeons. Slam goes a long way in addition to short term fear in close quarters. DSM has provided multiple videos of zones like hs and seb where you can fear kite.

Go troll with all into INT for a solo crawler. If you’re gonna go BIS, then maybe erudite/DE for best mana pool but by the sounds of it troll is the winner for you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lack of BE clickies is significant. You’re saving at minimum 120 mana a split. I fear kited like crazy in dungeons. Slam goes a long way in addition to short term fear in close quarters. DSM has provided multiple videos of zones like hs and seb where you can fear kite.

Go troll with all into INT for a solo crawler. If you’re gonna go BIS, then maybe erudite/DE for best mana pool but by the sounds of it troll is the winner for you.

Agreed. People underestimate Gloves/Pants for pulling. Saving 120 mana is no joke when you are trying to minimize meditation times. You're saving 6 minutes of med time every 10 splits.

For those curious, here are the videos Crede is referring to:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUYKBvYpPyM - Seb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmDvk3udrhI - HS

The trick to fear kiting in dungeons is learning spawn locations and pathing tendencies for fleeing mobs. You need to find areas with enough runway for your lowest level fear, and find the point at which they will reliably run in the direction that you want. As Crede said, Bash/Slam help with shortening the runway because the mob will stop moving for a second or two when stunned.

Having slam also improves your fear kiting (which is another plus for trolls), because 2h weapons are better for chasing fleeing mobs. You have less chance of missing a swing compared to 1h weapons due to not following the mob correctly at all times (being out of auto attack range).

[Keebz]

If you're interested in soloing at 60, go watch a real SK solo vid by Keerarae and note how many times they click BE items. That should give you an idea of how make or break they are.

[Crede]

If you're interested in soloing at 60, go watch a real SK solo vid by Keerarae and note how many times they click BE items. That should give you an idea of how make or break they are.

Not sure what you’re getting at here but I’ve talked to keer. He uses his be greaves all the time. Says it’s particularly helpful to time Vs casters and also said they’re usually permanently equipped. You can see him use it in the brogg video.

Not saying iksars aren’t capable of doing solo stuff but you’re just giving yourself a big mana handicap for no reason on a class that already struggles with mana and health. Troll just makes so much more sense unless you’re gearing for bis, then I’d probably go erudite for the best mana pool as sta will be capped eventually but even then regen is huge on a class that can’t heal for shit.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not sure what you’re getting at here but I’ve talked to keer. He uses his be greaves all the time. Says it’s particularly helpful to time Vs casters and also said they’re usually permanently equipped. You can see him use it in the brogg video.

Not saying iksars aren’t capable of doing solo stuff but you’re just giving yourself a big mana handicap for no reason on a class that already struggles with mana and health. Troll just makes so much more sense unless you’re gearing for bis, then I’d probably go erudite for the best mana pool as sta will be capped eventually but even then regen is huge on a class that can’t heal for shit.

I can second that about the greaves and casters. Sometimes you are splitting multiple clasters, and need to FD multiple times due to them starting to cast offensive spells when you fall down. Any offensive spell that hits you will break FD. Greaves make it easier for you to stand up and start FDing again while the mob finishes their cast.

I also have mine permanentally equipped. The extra stats from a better piece are not going to help you as much as the clickie.

[Snaggles]

Soloing named blues at level 60 in dungeons isn’t about racial perks or BE armor. You’re talking sapper procs, avatar, almost full mana bar face tanking. Even if a specific perk is handy it’s ridiculous to think the same player couldn’t overcome that if they have mentally and gear wise got to that stage in the game.

Not to say each race doesn’t have a bit fun or flavor to it that may come in handy but this is the edge case of all edge cases.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Soloing named blues at level 60 in dungeons isn’t about racial perks or BE armor. You’re talking sapper procs, avatar, almost full mana bar face tanking. Even if a specific perk is handy it’s ridiculous to think the same player couldn’t overcome that if they have mentally and gear wise got to that stage in the game.

Not to say each race doesn’t have a bit fun or flavor to it that may come in handy but this is the edge case of all edge cases.

I don't think anybody is saying that Blood Ember is required for a specific encounter. I am not sure why you are suggesting otherwise. Blood Ember + Troll Regen is simply going to give you a non-trivial edge as a Shadowknight most of the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIb859Cg5ZM - In a 5 minute fight with a Cliff Golem, a troll would regen 400 HP over a non-troll, which almost two extra epic procs. Not a game shattering thing, but better than not having it. That is half of a Fungi Tunic, and there is a reason why everybody wants a Fungi Tunic.

Once you get to the point where you have WillSapper, Primal Weapons, Soul Defiler, Epic, etc., you are never going to use Greenmist, which is the only perk of being an Iksar. This is also an edge case in itself if you are trying to argue against supposed edge cases, because 90% of Shadowknights on this server do not have WillSapper + Primal + Soul Defiler + Epic. Blood Ember + Regen is helping out the majority of Shadowknights quite a bit when compared to not having them.

[Vexenu]

There's really no getting around the fact that having snare, fear and FD available on clickies is extremely useful, and literally allows you do things that Iksar SKs cannot. It doesn't mean that Iksar SKs are unplayable, but they are making a significant sacrifice by foregoing the substantial utility provided by the best pieces of Blood Ember.

[Snaggles]

This quite literally what the OP asked:

Looking for some input

Is Iksar SK worse for end-game solo crawling than other races?
Do the armor clickies account for serious mana saving etc?

So until we know what they mean by end-game solo crawling it’s just a mystery. My point of the “end game solo” part is nobody is relying on free snare clicks for a 20 minute repop you are medding and waiting for unless crap goes very sideways.

Crawling droga or making your way up to King Tranix? Sure BE legs are great. FD and Death Peace don’t share a CD, one is 60mana and one is 120. Is free better on a 3 sec cast? Depends I guess. I suspect folks like Keerarae didn’t reverse engineer the best race at the creation screen, they pick one they like and got insane gear and skills then ventured out.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This quite literally what the OP asked:

So until we know what they mean by end-game solo crawling it’s just a mystery. My point of the “end game solo” part is nobody is relying on free snare clicks for a 20 minute repop you are medding and waiting for unless crap goes very sideways.

Crawling droga or making your way up to King Tranix? Sure BE legs are great. FD and Death Peace don’t share a CD, one is 60mana and one is 120. Is free better on a 3 sec cast? Depends I guess. I suspect folks like Keerarae didn’t reverse engineer the best race at the creation screen, they pick one they like and got insane gear and skills then ventured out.

Dungeon crawling requires you to FD multiple times to get down to a specific mob, so BE greaves are always going to be useful. While I agree OP's question is ambiguous, I am not going to assume he doesn't know what a crawl is.

If your crawling in Sebilis, for example, BE greaves will be great when you have to get around a spawn of 2-3 casters. Is it required? No, but reducing your chance of dying while crawling is never a bad thing when you can get nuked for 1k. Dying and having to restart your crawl is a pain. Again, in the hypothetical situation of an extremely well geared SK killing named mobs deep in a dungeon, Greenmist is completely obsolete by the time you have Epic + Primal + Soul Defiler + Willsapper.

Stacking Greenmist and Epic procs is not worth the DPS loss when swapping between the weapons. You are only getting a decent boost in HP gain if you happen to proc Greenmist + Epic within 6 seconds of each other. That can happen, but it's not a common enough scenario to rely on it. Average proc rate is 2 per minute at 255 DEX, so 2 Epic procs spaced 30 seconds apart is giving you 500 HP, vs. 490 with one proc of each weapon. You could get higher HP gain in a minute if you can proc Epic twice and Greenmist once, but that is pure luck, and if you only proc once in the next minute, it evens out. Greenmist would be better if 255 dex equated to 3 or 4 procs on average per minute.

Now you may not need BE greaves for fighting a Cliff Golem, since you don't need to split or crawl, but that is outside of OP's question since you are not crawling to Cliff Golems. I don't think many people are making SK's to simply camp static spawns in an open area.

[Ripqozko]

DSM about to go another 80 pages, the answer is pick what you want, it doesn’t matter in the end when every guild gets loot off draft.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM about to go another 80 pages, the answer is pick what you want, it doesn’t matter in the end when every guild gets loot off draft.

Guess we might as well shut down the forum since the answer to everything is "just do what you want":) People ask questions because there is an answer besides "just do what you want".

[Ripqozko]

Guess we might as well shut down the forum since the answer to everything is "just do what you want":) People ask questions because there is an answer besides "just do what you want".

Exactly, sorry you don’t got choices

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Exactly, sorry you don’t got choices

When you know what options you have, you got choices. When you don't know anything, you don't have a choice because you are just rolling a dice in terms of what you pick.

[Ripqozko]

When you know what options you have, you got choices. When you don't know anything, you don't have a choice because you are just rolling a dice in terms of what you pick.

It doesn’t matter what the dice hit, everyone gets free draft loot. You should know that’s all y’all get. Hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It doesn’t matter what the dice hit, everyone gets free draft loot. You should know that’s all y’all get. Hope that helps.

Free loot still takes a long time to get due to drop rates. Sorry you gotta wait 2+ years with a less optimal character.

[Ripqozko]

Free loot still takes a long time to get due to drop rates. Sorry you gotta wait 2+ years with a less optimal character.

Knight loot is basically free in any guild

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Knight loot is basically free in any guild

You are seeing maybe 5-10 Soul Defilers drop per year. If you aren't at the raid that week, or another guild gets it, you can be waiting months per drop. Due to it's rarity, you have more chance of being outbid as well. The common Knight loot is basically free, the rare stuff is still expensive. I've seen Soul Defiler go for 800+ DKP.

Willsappers are heavily contested too last time I checked. Good luck getting one with all the other melees who want one.

SKs take longer to gear than Paladins because their Epic is harder and Soul Defiler is rare and expensive.

[Ripqozko]

You are seeing maybe 5-10 Soul Defilers drop per year. If you aren't at the raid that week, or another guild gets it, you can be waiting months per drop. Due to it's rarity, you have more chance of being outbid as well. The common Knight loot is basically free, the rare stuff is still expensive. I've seen Soul Defiler go for 800+ DKP.

Willsappers are heavily contested too last time I checked. Good luck getting one with all the other melees who want one.

SKs take longer to gear than Paladins because their Epic is harder and Soul Defiler is rare and expensive.

I dunno I got my willsapper on sk in eclipse, we were just a draft guild . Anyone can . Soul defiler isn’t make or break it’s nice for the regen. Most raid sk weapons is free

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I dunno I got my willsapper on sk in eclipse, we were just a draft guild . Anyone can . Soul defiler isn’t make or break it’s nice for the regen. Most raid sk weapons is free

I am not saying you can't get Willsapper, it is simply not a free Knight drop. It is more contested and costs more DKP generally.

Saving mana on a Knight is essential, as it is their biggest bottleneck. Blood Ember fills that role when you don't have Soul Defiler. Once you have Soul Defiler, Blood Ember loses some value because you are regenerating like 12 mana per tick with FT1 and FT2. You're getting a free Engulfing Darkness or FD every 30 seconds. I'd still use Blood Ember, but 12 mana per tick makes being lazy more tempting.

[Ripqozko]

I am not saying you can't get Willsapper, it is simply not a free Knight drop. It is more contested and costs more DKP generally.

Saving mana on a Knight is essential, as it is their biggest bottleneck. Blood Ember fills that role when you don't have Soul Defiler. Once you have Soul Defiler, Blood Ember loses some value because you are regenerating like 12 mana per tick with FT1 and FT2. You're getting a free Engulfing Darkness or FD every 30 seconds. I'd still use Blood Ember, but 12 mana per tick makes being lazy more tempting.

I’m just saying knight loot in general is basically free compared to every other class, and being over geared makes content easy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m just saying knight loot in general is basically free compared to every other class, and being over geared makes content easy.

I agree with your assessment that a lot of Knight gear is cheap DKP-wise.

I'm just saying Blood Ember + Troll Regen is still helpful when fully geared. Saving 120 mana on FD because you clicked pants instead of casting Death's Peace is half of a Drain Soul, and Troll Regen cancels out the -10 HP/Tick from Soul Defiler.

Even when just fighting difficult static mobs like a Cliff Golem, you can FD to let your pet take some damage while you heal up from Epic Proc. If you do that a few times in the fight with Blood Ember Greaves you have 1-2 more Drain Souls than someone without Blood Ember.

[Keebz]

I'm just saying Blood Ember... is still helpful when fully geared.

Says a guy who's not 60, nor fully geared. Repeating yourself over and over again does not make you more qualified to answer questions you're not qualified to answer. Consider stating your point once and not spamming every thread you participate in.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Says a guy who's not 60, nor fully geared. Repeating yourself over and over again does not make you more qualified to answer questions you're not qualified to answer. Consider stating your point once and not spamming every thread you participate in.

Lol this is the weakest form of argument possible. No, you do not need a level 60 BiS character to be able to make factual statements about a class. I am pretty confident in my understanding of a class I leveled to 59.

Sorry you got fallacy. Spamming fallacies in every thread you participate in isn't helpful.

Troll Regen = 12 HP/Tick standing. Call of Bones = -10 HP/Tick. -10 + 12 = +2 HP/Tick Standing.

1 click of Blood Ember Greaves = 120 mana saved from not casting Death's Peace. 240 mana = 1 Drain Soul with 15 extra mana left over.

Basic math shows that I am correct, no BiS Character needed.

[Duik]

Has someone (the moderators) considered using chatgpt to parse posts for repeated content, minimize it and flag it as superfluous. With option to expand the content.
Just a thought.

[trees]

As OP ill be wading back in to the fray - I very much appreciate the debates and back and forth for knowledge sponging - I come from a super min-max type of background in other games, Havent made it late game in p99 yet but its my next step, that being said, now that im older, my play time and poop sock potential is reduced. So I am looking to understand the potential impacts before I invest time.
Is it so groundbreaking without hyper raid gear that I would regret say going for greenmist as a more casual step, etc. - does it come down to the clear-cut choice to stay with a race that can BE because the majority of my time will be spent solo, doing as much content as I possibly can etc.

[Jimjam]

All the races can perform suitably as an end game sk. The biggest factor will be whether your online and willing to spend most dkp when one of your wish list items drop.

Blood ember is helpful, but if you want to be an iksar … well a fatty in blood ember will never grow a tail (*wolf form excluded :D).

At 60 SK can load two FDs into spell bar, eroding advantage of be greaves.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As OP ill be wading back in to the fray - I very much appreciate the debates and back and forth for knowledge sponging - I come from a super min-max type of background in other games, Havent made it late game in p99 yet but its my next step, that being said, now that im older, my play time and poop sock potential is reduced. So I am looking to understand the potential impacts before I invest time.
Is it so groundbreaking without hyper raid gear that I would regret say going for greenmist as a more casual step, etc. - does it come down to the clear-cut choice to stay with a race that can BE because the majority of my time will be spent solo, doing as much content as I possibly can etc.

Luckily no race is unplayable in P99. You won't be screwed if you pick Iksar. You are just going to have noticeably more downtime 45+ when soloing, and probably a few more FD fail related deaths.

If you want to min/max because you like doing so, I would avoid picking Iksar. Go Troll if you prefer to solo, go Ogre if you group most of the time.

[Jimjam]

You are just going to have noticeably more downtime 45+ when soloing, and probably a few more FD fail related deaths.

I don't have experience of 50+ iksar vs non iksar SK, but I do have that experience for iksar vs non iksar warrior for those levels. I'm not sure why, perhaps it is the native regen, or perhaps the scale bonus dramatically reducing incoming dps, but the recovery time on the iksar felt much more favourable than that of the half elf / halfling.

Based on that (but again with no first hand experience) I'm not convinced iksar would have dramatically more downtime. My troll SK only tends to lean on his BE stuff when already low on mana. Perhaps that is a gameplay 'error' on my part.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't have experience of 50+ iksar vs non iksar SK, but I do have that experience for iksar vs non iksar warrior for those levels. I'm not sure why, perhaps it is the native regen, or perhaps the scale bonus dramatically reducing incoming dps, but the recovery time on the iksar felt much more favourable than that of the half elf / halfling.

Based on that (but again with no first hand experience) I'm not convinced iksar would have dramatically more downtime. My troll SK only tends to lean on his BE stuff when already low on mana. Perhaps that is a gameplay 'error' on my part.

For sure, Iksars have HP regen. They will be faster at recovery than a Human, Dark Elf, etc. The regen is what you were feeling, not the AC bonus.

But without Blood Ember you are going to be meditating quite a bit more. You should use your Blood Ember stuff as much as possible, since mana is the bottleneck on Shadowknights. If you are in an area where mobs run at 20% health, for example, every 10 glove clicks is saving you 3 minutes of meditation time at level 60, more if you are lower level (less mana regen). You will be snaring every mob in this scenario.

Being a Troll gives you the best of both worlds, with no real downside.

The only reason to pick Iksar over Troll is if you just really dislike the way Trolls look. That is a perfectly fine reason. You should like your character, but you are picking the worse choice between the two Regen races. Unfortunately Greenmist just doesn't fit well with P99's 2 procs per minute cap. You're maybe getting 90-120 extra HP if you proc Epic and Greenmist while Epic is still ticking compared to re-procing Epic. However, the lower DPS from Greenmist is probably going to end up getting you hit 1 or 2 more times, which will cancel out that extra HP for the most part. If you proc both and they don't overlap, procing Epic a second time would have been better.

[Jimjam]

P99's 2 procs per minute cap.

*2 procs per minute expected value, not cap. For sake of clarity and/or pedantry :)

[Keebz]

For OP's sake, I'll chime in one last time. It's the long casting time on the BE stuff that makes it less appealing when doing more challenging content at 60. 5 second snares and 3 second FDs are rough. You can still work it in, but you're getting a lot less value than when grinding lower level mobs as fast as possible. Certain persons haven't graduated from the grinding blues so they are obsessed with it. You'll have to weigh your BE FOMO against your Iksar FOMO and decided what you can live with.

Since you said you come from a min/max background, you should know the Min/Max is to not play an SK main (Warrior, Monk, Necro can be a good substitute depending on what you wanna do). To actually get the raid gear, you're gonna be relentlessly clowned on as an SK and asked to switch to a cleric often. If you're a good enough player or a "locker room" guy you can mitigate this somewhat.

If you're interested in what end game SK stuff is like feel free to DM me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

For OP's sake, I'll chime in one last time. It's the long casting time on the BE stuff that makes it less appealing when doing more challenging content at 60. 5 second snares and 3 second FDs are rough. You can still work it in, but you're getting a lot less value than when grinding lower level mobs as fast as possible. Certain persons haven't graduated from the grinding blues so they are obsessed with it. You'll have to weigh your BE FOMO against your Iksar FOMO and decided what you can live with.

Since you said you come from a min/max background, you should know the Min/Max is to not play an SK main (Warrior, Monk, Necro can be a good substitute depending on what you wanna do). To actually get the raid gear, you're gonna be relentlessly clowned on as an SK and asked to switch to a cleric often. If you're a good enough player or a "locker room" guy you can mitigate this somewhat.

If you're interested in what end game SK stuff is like feel free to DM me.

I used to think the same way. On live I didn't like clickies due to the longer casting time. But you just need to learn how to use them. It sounds like you just need to get more comfortable with them. Being 60 and raid geared doesn't mean you know everything.

The math backs me up, and I can show you how to incorporate clickies in to fights if you need it.

For OPs sake, I wouldn't advise listening to people who underestimate Blood Ember. Not a knock against Keebz, but he is wrong and doesn't seem to want to update his understanding. Hopefully he will come around.

At Jimjam, the average is 2 PPM at 255 dex. Can you proc more or less in a minute? Sure, but its not reliable. Over time you are hitting the average. 3 procs in 1 minute will probably be followed by one proc in the next. Greenmist would be better if the average was 3 procs per minute, so you could reliably stack Greenmist + 2 Epic procs.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I am really not sure why Keebz thinks the only thing a 60 Shadowknight can do is fight tough single mobs. Any time you lose XP in 60, you eventually have to grind it back if you want to keep 60. You aren't going to be grinding XP then? Blood Ember magically becomes useless? I think you are way too focused on one aspect of the game to try and win the argument.

I have a 60 Shaman who does all kinds of solo content. It isn't like I am unfamiliar with the end game, both solo and raiding. You don't need to fight a mob with every single class to understand how it operates.

[Crede]

Not really sure why people are talking about rolling other classes or undervaluing BE stuff. You can min max an sk just as you can min max any other class. It’s about getting the best edge possible, this is a locked server, so getting free advantages are huge. BE is advantageous, plain and simple. If you’re not trying to incorporate it into all levels of play, you’re just being inefficient on a class that needs every bit of efficiency it can get.

An iksar sk can eventually solo a cliff golem same as a DE sk. That doesn’t matter. Going a race like troll with BE and regen and slam are advantages that add up over time. Not to mention have huge melee bonuses over the other races besides ogre. If you’re ok with giving up some of that for iksar looks, that’s fine. Just know that you are handicapping yourself to some extent.

I’ve done several sk builds. I also have a 60 sk. Based on my build research I would recommend fashion first and foremost. If you don’t care about that then go troll for solo or ogre for group/raid. If you want to bis a magelo then prob go erudite.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Not really sure why people are talking about rolling other classes or undervaluing BE stuff. You can min max an sk just as you can min max any other class. It’s about getting the best edge possible, this is a locked server, so getting free advantages are huge. BE is advantageous, plain and simple. If you’re not trying to incorporate it into all levels of play, you’re just being inefficient on a class that needs every bit of efficiency it can get.

An iksar sk can eventually solo a cliff golem same as a DE sk. That doesn’t matter. Going a race like troll with BE and regen and slam are advantages that add up over time. Not to mention have huge melee bonuses over the other races besides ogre. If you’re ok with giving up some of that for iksar looks, that’s fine. Just know that you are handicapping yourself to some extent.

I’ve done several sk builds. I also have a 60 sk. Based on my build research I would recommend fashion first and foremost. If you don’t care about that then go troll for solo or ogre for group/raid. If you want to bis a magelo then prob go erudite.

Agreed.

[Ripqozko]

The only right choices Is the races that allow you to wear PD robe for the mana BIS, all the other options yall are giving are invalid.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only right choices Is the races that allow you to wear PD robe for the mana BIS, all the other options yall are giving are invalid.

Vindi BP better. Robes are dumb.

[Ripqozko]

Vindi BP better. Robes are dumb.

Sorry your ugly troll can’t wear, mana is all that matters and vindi has none. Hope that helps.

[Ennewi]

I’m just saying knight loot in general is basically free compared to every other class, and being over geared makes content easy.

The few exceptions being Tunare flamberge and Crown of Narandi. Everything else that's knight-specific though, pennies on the dollar in terms of DKP. It's a nice perk and kind of ridiculous how quickly it can be done on a budget, considering how many people still want to twink their knight alts for duoing/soloing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sorry your ugly troll can’t wear, mana is all that matters and vindi has none. Hope that helps.

You don't need 300 extra max mana to beat any encounters that I am aware of, and you aren't spot healing in raids. Sorry you got robe.

[Ripqozko]

You don't need 300 extra max mana to beat any encounters that I am aware of, and you aren't spot healing in raids. Sorry you got robe.

You don’t need BE gear either , quit changing the goalposts.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don’t need BE gear either , quit changing the goalposts.

Please show me where I said you need Blood Ember gear hehe. I said it's better than not having it, and better than Greenmist. Sorry you can't read. Hope this helps.

[Ripqozko]

Please show me where I said you need Blood Ember gear hehe. I said it's better than not having it, and better than Greenmist. Sorry you can't read. Hope this helps.

and its better to have a larger mana pool, its same reason you have clicks, even your dumb arguement should see this. or do you have to be so right that you have to shift goalposts.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

and its better to have a larger mana pool, its same reason you have clicks, even your dumb arguement should see this. or do you have to be so right that you have to shift goalposts.

I love how people use "shifting the goalposts" as an argument when they realize they can't read correctly. I am sorry, but you don't even know what the goal posts are due to reading comprehension issues. That is the only reason why you think goalpost movement is happening. It's self delusion.

Max mana is less useful than clickies or Flowing Thought because most of the time you won't be at full mana. You aren't spot heal spamming in a raid. Use Blood Ember Greaves 3 times in a hard fight to let your pet tank while you tick Soul Consumption? Congratulations, you saved 360 mana, which is better than PD Robe, and you had the extra AC/HP/Regen from Vindi BP to soak more damage.

Sorry you got Robe. Sorry you don't have Blood Ember. Hope this helps.

[Ripqozko]

I love how people use "shifting the goalposts" as an argument when they realize they can't read correctly. I am sorry, but you don't even know what the goal posts are due to reading comprehension issues. That is the only reason why you think goalpost movement is happening. It's self delusion.

Max mana is less useful than clickies or Flowing Thought because most of the time you won't be at full mana. Use Blood Ember Greaves 3 times in a hard fight to let your pet tank while you tick Soul Consumption? Congratulations, you saved 360 mana, which is better than PD Robe, and you had the extra AC/HP/Regen from Vindi BP to soak more damage.

Sorry you got Robe. Sorry you don't have Blood Ember. Hope this helps.

Yea option b, you do have to have last word and always right

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea option b, you do have to have last word and always right

You aren't disagreeing with me because you want to have a conversation and try to help OP or expand game knowledge.

You like to play a game where you want to prove me wrong. Not because you care about whether I am correct or not, but because you have a fantasy that I want to always be right.

I have been proven wrong plenty of times on these forums, and I am quite happy about it. Many people have expanded my game knowledge, and I am grateful for that.

If you think I am wrong, you can provide evidence for your claims so we can all learn something. If max mana is significantly better for SK's than we thought, there should be more Erudite SK's cropping up, which will be cool!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let me break down the Vindi BP vs. PD Robe comparison a bit more.

A Troll with a Vindi BP who put 20 points into INT has +34 STA and +15 HP over an Iksar with PD Robe who put 20 points into STA. Their INT is basically equal, 82 vs. 85. That means the Troll has +192 HP over the Iksar. With Vindi BP you are getting an extra 100 HP via AoB regen in a 5 minute fight with something like a Cliff Golem. So you are getting a total of 292 HP with Vindi BP, roughly speaking.

The Iksar is getting roughly 320 more mana, which translates into 1 Drain soul with about 100 mana left over. So they are getting 338 HP and 100 mana from PD robe in the same fight with a Cliff Golem.

You are essentially trading 27 worn AC and 10 ATK for 46 HP and 100 Mana. While you could argue Innate Iksar AC can close the AC gap, you are still looking at a small trade. 10 ATK for 46 HP and 100 Mana.

Best case you can make for PD robe is it is basically equal to Vindi BP in terms of what you get. One click of Blood Ember Greaves is saving you 120 mana (which Iksars cannot use), so you are really trading 10 ATK and 20 mana for 46 HP.

I am not trying to say Max Mana is worthless on an SK. A bigger mana pool means you can spam more spells in a short time. But a lot of people forget the trade-offs you make when you pick a small race vs. a big race, and also the trade-off of Iksars not being able to wear plate. In enough BiS gear you can cap Stamina, and PD Robe gets a bit better. But realistically it's going to take a lot of BiS gear to get an Iksar to cap STA without buffs, and you are still losing Blood Ember, which can provide more mana than PD robe.

I understand your initial comment was about fashion, but personally I think plate looks better than Robes. You aren't hiding all the cool gear you got.

[Vivitron]

Congratulations, you saved 360 mana, which is better than PD Robe, and you had the extra AC/HP/Regen from Vindi BP to soak more damage.

180 mana. As far as I can tell even most BE pants owners keep both fd and death peace on the bar.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

180 mana. As far as I can tell even most BE pants owners keep both fd and death peace on the bar.

Agreed, it could be 180 if you spaced out regular FDs and didn't fail any of them. It could also save more than 360 with FD fails. I am using Deaths Peace as the example because that would be the FD you put on bar if you didn't put both on bar.

[Snaggles]

The only thing worse than a sk race thread is a pally charisma one. By the time they fizzle out the op could be 60.

Does it matter? Yes
Really tho? No

It’s a class with spells that can equip awesome gear. That means a lot of the player vs npc solo battles are determined by everything else than the last 200 mana or 8pt extra standing regen. It’s 80 hps a minute or 400 in 5 mins. If the fight comes down to those razor thin margins…Jesus…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only thing worse than a sk race thread is a pally charisma one. By the time they fizzle out the op could be 60.

Does it matter? Yes
Really tho? No

It’s a class with spells that can equip awesome gear. That means a lot of the player vs npc solo battles are determined by everything else than the last 200 mana or 8pt extra standing regen. It’s 80 hps a minute or 400 in 5 mins. If the fight comes down to those razor thin margins…Jesus…

Let people get the correct answer and they can figure it out for themselves if it's worth caring about:) Better than a nothing answer like this.

[Duik]

Sometimes, there is actually no answer. Faffing on about 360 standing regen (or whatever) over a 5 min fight is pointless if the mob does 700 in 2 mins and ya dead.
Some of the best play sessions have been jerry rigged parties with mismatched classes just getting it the fuck done.
The EQ meta has been worked out years ago. Recreating and repeating, adinfinitum the theoretical advantage of itemX or stratY and classZ is pointless if all the OP ends up with is a bunch of forum poopsockers arguing.
As mentioned above, an all Iksar Shm Nec Mnk/Shd group does sound fun though. ZOMG, not optimum!

[Snaggles]

Let people get the correct answer and they can figure it out for themselves if it's worth caring about:) Better than a nothing answer like this.

There is no “correct”. It’s a spectrum of advantages and disadvantages. Even 20% xp penalty for a solo player is a disadvantage for how most people will solo to 60 (spawn limited). All that matters is 60, a lot of people stop playing before they see a class truly evolve.

What could Keer do as a troll but not a DE? What would they not be able to kill if a Iksar instead? Please enlighten us.

[Crede]

There is no “correct”. It’s a spectrum of advantages and disadvantages. Even 20% xp penalty for a solo player is a disadvantage for how most people will solo to 60 (spawn limited). All that matters is 60, a lot of people stop playing before they see a class truly evolve.

What could Keer do as a troll but not a DE? What would they not be able to kill if a Iksar instead? Please enlighten us.

These questions are irrelevant. Iksar monks can’t do anything that a human cant also do, but yet you still see a million more iksar monks. An advantage is still an advantage. There is a best race for certain scenarios, despite how big or little the advantage may actually be

A troll will be able to crawl dungeons faster than a DE. They will have to swap weapons less since they have slam. They will also have more mana than iksar since you can and should be clicking BE every chance you get.

[Ennewi]

Never mind the fact that attempting to do more with less can teach a player more about their class until they obtain those items that make them more self-sufficient, if ever. Those limitations also present an additional layer of challenge, upping risk and punishing mistakes. Night blindness for humans/erudites/barbarians. Restricted dungeon movements for trolls/ogres. Difficulty climbing stairs in Kael for gnomes/dwarves/halflings. Personally, that is the overall appeal of classic anyway; outside of guides/GMs, no one character has access to an easy solution for every problem.

[Kirdan]

if you can't use ring of the dead, are you even an SK?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

These questions are irrelevant. Iksar monks can’t do anything that a human cant also do, but yet you still see a million more iksar monks. An advantage is still an advantage. There is a best race for certain scenarios, despite how big or little the advantage may actually be

A troll will be able to crawl dungeons faster than a DE. They will have to swap weapons less since they have slam. They will also have more mana than iksar since you can and should be clicking BE every chance you get.

This is correct. There are factually better/worse races in the game, and you can objectively determine them. Let people know what they are, so they can choose how they want to play. Knowledge is power.

Everybody agrees these advantages aren't enough to make another race unplayable, but some people want to have the best race for their class. If they enjoy playing that way, nobody should try to stop it.

[Snaggles]

These questions are irrelevant. Iksar monks can’t do anything that a human cant also do, but yet you still see a million more iksar monks. An advantage is still an advantage. There is a best race for certain scenarios, despite how big or little the advantage may actually be

A troll will be able to crawl dungeons faster than a DE. They will have to swap weapons less since they have slam. They will also have more mana than iksar since you can and should be clicking BE every chance you get.

Do you know what a rhetorical question is?

[Pint]

Looking for some input

Is Iksar SK worse for end-game solo crawling than other races?
Do the armor clickies account for serious mana saving etc?

Is iksar worse end game? Definitely no
Clickies account for "serious" mana saving? Definitely no

Best stat to revisit old dungeons with is AC and it's not close. Iksar ac is best. Kunark armor clickies also more inconvenient to swap in then useful for a truly "end game" character but that's just one lazy end game solo crawling adventurers opinion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is iksar worse end game? Definitely no
Clickies account for "serious" mana saving? Definitely no

Best stat to revisit old dungeons with is AC and it's not close. Iksar ac is best. Kunark armor clickies also more inconvenient to swap in then useful for a truly "end game" character but that's just one lazy end game solo crawling adventurers opinion.

Iksar AC bonus is not better than Blood Ember Clickies. In the end game you are going to hit AC softcap because plate already has good AC. Before the end game, Blood Ember clickie mana saving is going to help you more than a bit of mitigation. The goal of fear kiting is to not get hit often.

[Crede]

Iksar gonna use so much more mana crawling a dungeon without BE. However, if face to face with a cliff golem I would be curious to see a parse difference in equal gear.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Iksar gonna use so much more mana crawling a dungeon without BE. However, if face to face with a cliff golem I would be curious to see a parse difference in equal gear.

Yeah It would be interesting if someone ever did a bunch of parses with two equally geared SKs to see if the AC made any difference for solo challenge mobs. If an SK is able to solo a Cliff Golem, they are probably at AC softcap. That is why I don't think it's going to matter too much, as you get less mitigation above the softcap.

The AC bonus is better for Monks because their armor doesn't have a lot of AC on it to begin with.

[Crede]

Yeah It would be interesting if someone ever did a bunch of parses with two equally geared SKs to see if the AC made any difference for solo challenge mobs. If an SK is able to solo a Cliff Golem, they are probably at AC softcap. That is why I don't think it's going to matter too much, as you get less mitigation above the softcap.

The AC bonus is better for Monks because their armor doesn't have a lot of AC on it to begin with.

If the AC bonus was that big of a deal I think we'd be seeing a lot more iksar wars/SKs.

So end game dungeon crawling you should pretty much have BE greaves always equipped only using FD/DP for emergencies. This could easily equate to thousands of extra mana in a sustained grind/crawl session where that mana could be spent on things like tap/dps and such and not splitting mobs. I don't think a minor AC bump is worth giving this up for. But would be nice to see a parse just to see. I have a 60 troll sk with moderate AC to be able to see an iksar AC difference giving the iksar more favor being below the soft cap to try and test this if someone brought forth an iksar sk.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If the AC bonus was that big of a deal I think we'd be seeing a lot more iksar wars/SKs.

So end game dungeon crawling you should pretty much have BE greaves always equipped only using FD/DP for emergencies. This could easily equate to thousands of extra mana in a sustained grind/crawl session where that mana could be spent on things like tap/dps and such and not splitting mobs. I don't think a minor AC bump is worth giving this up for. But would be nice to see a parse just to see. I have a 60 troll sk with moderate AC to be able to see an iksar AC difference giving the iksar more favor being below the soft cap to try and test this if someone brought forth an iksar sk.

That was my thought as well. We have had Kunark for 10 years now, and we don't see tons of Iksar Wars. Either nobody has done the calculation, or nobody has been impressed. But yeah I would love to see a parse if it can be produced.

[bobjonesp99]

ac doesnt have a big impact when raid mobs are beating on your face. it matters a ton when fighting even and uncon mobs though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

ac doesnt have a big impact when raid mobs are beating on your face. it matters a ton when fighting even and uncon mobs though.

Oh yeah, AC isn't useless. The question is simply how impactful is a bit of extra AC past the softcap. SK's are going to hit softcap due to being able to wear plate. While it's difficult to accurately judge precisely how much AC actually helps at what breakpoints (especially past the softcap), saving mana is typically going to be a bigger boost in performance. SK's rely heavily on mana for damage mitigation in most cases.

[Snaggles]

There isn't a soft cap per se (not like how it is with Agility at 75 skill), it's just itemization is limited because there are 3 expansions and 90% of the BIS stuff comes from only one of them. If you can pick between Item A and Item B which are BIS and they have different stats you ultimately still have to choose a path. Even if you can't pick BiS items you still have to choose...Ivandyr's Hoop or Hammered Golden Loop? You gotta wear one...

Slowing stuff (slow), killing it faster (dps), and recovering lost hps (taps) is what matters. That and some old fashioned luck.

[Ennewi]

But also conserving resources (mana) with clickies and avoiding damage (NPC harm touch) at the cost of reagents (bonechips). Any mana not spent on feign death can then be used towards dps and hp recovery.

[pink grapefruit]

S tier:
Erudite
Dark elf

A tier:
Iksar

B tier:
Troll
Ogre
Human

…

S+ tier:
Gnome

[Toxigen]

Being a big fat tubbybutt is dumb.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Being a big fat tubbybutt is dumb.

The secret to mastering spellcasting is to weave butt scratches in between casting. No pretty princess will do that!

[Toxigen]

The secret to mastering spellcasting is to weave butt scratches in between casting. No pretty princess will do that!

Ogres and Trolls have a hidden ability called "smell my finger."

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ogres and Trolls have a hidden ability called "smell my finger."

LOL you figured it out!

[Pint]

Yea these guys are wrong. AC while crawling dungeons is king if your gear is "end game" (mines about 1500). Not sure why you'd be fear kiting as a 6k/1500ac sk working your way through a dungeon but I'm a paladin not a sk.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea these guys are wrong. AC while crawling dungeons is king if your gear is "end game" (mines about 1500). Not sure why you'd be fear kiting as a 6k/1500ac sk working your way through a dungeon but I'm a paladin not a sk.

Oh thats easy. You don't take damage when fear kiting:) Not getting hit is the best form of mitigation.

[Pint]

I think your taps will be sufficient for everything but named mobs tbh. I'd be curious what keer's experience is? Where are all the high end sks at?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think your taps will be sufficient for everything but named mobs tbh. I'd be curious what keer's experience is? Where are all the high end sks at?

Lol I'm a high level SK with raid gear. It is cute you think strategies significantly change with a slightly better FD and Life Tap. You don't get a Torpor type game changing spell at 60.

Anything that can be fear kited should be. Draining half your mana in taps for one fight simply isn't efficient when killing fearable mobs.

When you are fighting something like a Cliff Golem (unfearable) then of course you are using your AC more. But you'd basically need to devise a method for determining how much damage an extra 35 AC at 1500 AC would mitigate, and I don't think anyone has done that.

As far as I know P99 has a softcap of 289 AC and the iksar AC bonus doesnt raise it like shields, unless someone has figured out something new recently.

EDIT: according to haynar in 2014 https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1424908&postcount=13 there is a softcap system in place. He says 385 ac is the "low level cap", whatever that means. Not sure what the cap is when you leave the low levels.

[Crede]

Lol I'm a high level SK with raid gear. It is cute you think strategies significantly change with a slightly better FD and Life Tap. You don't get a Torpor type game changing spell at 60.

Anything that can be fear kited should be. Draining half your mana in taps for one fight simply isn't efficient when killing fearable mobs.

When you are fighting something like a Cliff Golem (unfearable) then of course you are using your AC more. But you'd basically need to devise a method for determining how much damage an extra 35 AC at 1500 AC would mitigate, and I don't think anyone has done that.

As far as I know P99 has a softcap of 289 AC and the iksar AC bonus isn't excluded like shields, unless someone has figured out something new recently.

Yea he’s referring to crawling kunark dungeons with 1500 ac and just face tanking stuff instead of fear kiting. Anyone who has played an sk at a high level knows how horribly inefficient they are at healing themselves. The sk Epic was the most game changing item I’ve ever experienced besides a fungi as it severely reduced the amount of downtime needed, but even then you’re still relying on procs which isn’t ideal when the mobs start getting really hard you have to weigh the dps loss. If you have the space to fear kite, then I agree you should be fear kiting or at least trying to mix it in. Especially for undead since the undead fear is so good. This is a good time to mix in epic too since you’re not taking hits you can try to get some procs in with a lower dps weapon. Sk killing is a balancing act between your hp and mana. If you flat out refuse to fear kite even if you have room to do so, then you’re just being inefficient 50+ and you’re left either clicking the slow ass bp for 90 hp or trying to proc epic on an eye if you were lucky enough to get some
Pre nerf beads.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea he’s referring to crawling kunark dungeons with 1500 ac and just face tanking stuff instead of fear kiting. Anyone who has played an sk at a high level knows how horribly inefficient they are at healing themselves. The sk Epic was the most game changing item I’ve ever experienced besides a fungi as it severely reduced the amount of downtime needed, but even then you’re still relying on procs which isn’t ideal when the mobs start getting really hard you have to weigh the dps loss. If you have the space to fear kite, then I agree you should be fear kiting or at least trying to mix it in. Especially for undead since the undead fear is so good. This is a good time to mix in epic too since you’re not taking hits you can try to get some procs in with a lower dps weapon. Sk killing is a balancing act between your hp and mana. If you flat out refuse to fear kite even if you have room to do so, then you’re just being inefficient 50+ and you’re left either clicking the slow ass bp for 90 hp or trying to proc epic on an eye if you were lucky enough to get some
Pre nerf beads.

I agree with this. I also agree about the SK Epic. Got mine a few weeks ago and it is very nice for healing.

[Pint]

Lol I'm a high level SK with raid gear. It is cute you think strategies significantly change with a slightly better FD and Life Tap. You don't get a Torpor type game changing spell at 60.

Anything that can be fear kited should be. Draining half your mana in taps for one fight simply isn't efficient when killing fearable mobs.

When you are fighting something like a Cliff Golem (unfearable) then of course you are using your AC more. But you'd basically need to devise a method for determining how much damage an extra 35 AC at 1500 AC would mitigate, and I don't think anyone has done that.

As far as I know P99 has a softcap of 289 AC and the iksar AC bonus doesnt raise it like shields, unless someone has figured out something new recently.

EDIT: according to haynar in 2014 https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1424908&postcount=13 there is a softcap system in place. He says 385 ac is the "low level cap", whatever that means. Not sure what the cap is when you leave the low levels.

Is your magelo out of date bc you look like a sub 60 piece meal geared alt to me and no where near end game raid gear. I dont think you guys understood OPs question tbh

[Pint]

Yea idk guys. With actual end game raid gear I don't even bother to wear my narandi and just wear the hobarts. Y'alls points make sense if you geared up in EC and you're trying to level up. If you're one of the knights I played with back in the day wearing full velious raid gear and multiple vulak items then you definitely don't need to fear kite or carry around ft2 helm to efficiently clear a kunark dungeon. Maybe y'all have a friend who is geared and could walk you through what it looks like in real time to fight a bok knight or a HS skeleton at the real end game.

[Toxigen]

Being large in dungeons is horrible.

Best race is anything but ogre / troll if ya gonna be BiS anyway.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Is your magelo out of date bc you look like a sub 60 piece meal geared alt to me and no where near end game raid gear. I dont think you guys understood OPs question tbh

If you think there is a massive difference between level 59 and 60 in terms of understanding how to play the game on a Shadowknight, you don't understand the game very well. You would have a point if I was talking about Shamans, since Torpor changes how the class plays at 60.

You are a bit jaded if you think only full BiS is good gear. While I am not full BiS gear by any stretch, I am better geared than a lot of SKs. A person drowning in DKP throwing gear onto an alt doesn't make them someone who knows the class very well hehe. Having full raid gear in every slot means nothing these days in terms of skill and game knowledge.

Yea idk guys. With actual end game raid gear I don't even bother to wear my narandi and just wear the hobarts. Y'alls points make sense if you geared up in EC and you're trying to level up. If you're one of the knights I played with back in the day wearing full velious raid gear and multiple vulak items then you definitely don't need to fear kite or carry around ft2 helm to efficiently clear a kunark dungeon. Maybe y'all have a friend who is geared and could walk you through what it looks like in real time to fight a bok knight or a HS skeleton at the real end game.

You honestly don't understand the game very well if you thnk this. Even in full BiS gear there is no reason to simply waste mana on tap tanking a mob you can fear kite. It's not efficient. 1500 AC is not going to get you to the point where a Sebilis Frog is only doing 100 damage to you over the entire fight. AC is great, but its not that great.

I think the issue is you just haven't played an SK. Paladins get Deepwater BP, which means you can efficiently heal outside of combat. You're getting 1800 HP/Minute on BP Clicks.

Shadowknights get 360 HP/Minute on BP clicks, and maybe 500 HP from two Epic procs on average per fight if it lasts a minute. That means we need to spend 675 mana if we want to Drain Soul the other 900 HP back.

As Crede said, SK healing is simply less efficient, so we can't just waste HP and Mana willy nilly.

You are mainly tap tanking mobs you can't fear because you simply have no other option, or you are lazy. I am not saying being lazy is always bad since this is a game, but lazy is not efficient.

If we were discussing paladins, you sound like like someone who is disregarding Deepwater BP because it is too much effort to buy Jaspers and click it. Just sit and regen mana and heal instead. It's bad advise.

[Snaggles]

Yea and skelly illusion removes slam. So any race will need a Inny’s Curse if you are trying to maximize dps while having a small chance of shutting down casters you can’t fear.

DSM, the only reason Pint doesn’t have a geared sk is because he doesn’t want one. Or doesn’t want to do it again (one knight is enough for most). It’s not that hard. Most if not all of the mechanics are the same, just a different tool kit. And yes, 60 means everything. Your skill caps aren’t evolved, your missing good spells and a disc, the npc is naturally a level higher than it has to be which as we all know matters. I know you mean well but just level your SK. I’ve pushed a bard and Druid to 60 since you were first being heckled about it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea and skelly illusion removes slam. So any race will need a Inny’s Curse if you are trying to maximize dps while having a small chance of shutting down casters you can’t fear.

DSM, the only reason Pint doesn’t have a geared sk is because he doesn’t want one. Or doesn’t want to do it again (one knight is enough for most). It’s not that hard. Most if not all of the mechanics are the same, just a different tool kit. And yes, 60 means everything. Your skill caps aren’t evolved, your missing good spells and a disc, the npc is naturally a level higher than it has to be which as we all know matters. I know you mean well but just level your SK. I’ve pushed a bard and Druid to 60 since you were first being heckled about it.

It's telling when you think SK's use skele illision because they need to:) Shroud of Death gives the same life tap proc as Shroud of Undeath, just no skele illusion. Unless you want to kill something in style, why use Shroud of Undeath in a tough fight?

I have a level 60 character, I know precisely the difference in how much you get hit between 59 and 60. It's not a massive leap if you are soloing most of the time. You are thinking in terms of offtanking in a raid, where the mob is often higher level than you (60 or above). Level gap matters more in that case. When fighting something like Sebilis Frogs, you are already 10+ levels above a lot of them at 59. Leechcurse has a 72 minute cooldown, so unless you are fighting 1 mob and AFKing for 72 minutes, I am not sure why you think Leechcurse is going to be something you are using often.

SK's get a slightly better Tap and a slightly better FD at 60. You don't need to play with them to understand what they will give you.

Basically Pint is just trying to do an argument from authority because he doesn't have anything else, inlcuding an SK to test his theories.

[Toxigen]

c u boys in 30 pages

[Ripqozko]

c u boys in 30 pages

Basically every dsm thread yep

[DeathsSilkyMist]

c u boys in 30 pages

I always find it strange that you think discussions are strange on a forum. Very silly. But a lot of your posts are just nonsense like this, so I guess I can't expect too much:) Same with Ripqozko. You both think typing 5 random words on a forum is the ideal method of discussion.

[Ripqozko]

I always find it strange that you think discussions are strange on a forum. Very silly. But a lot of your posts are just nonsense like this, so I guess I can't expect too much:) Same with Ripqozko. You both think typing 5 random words on a forum is the ideal method of discussion.

You don’t have discussions , you spend 100 pages arguing that your point is the right one and everyone else is wrong or trolling. Hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You don’t have discussions , you spend 100 pages arguing that your point is the right one and everyone else is wrong or trolling. Hope that helps.

This is simply not true, and you can check my post history. It isn't like I can hide that. It is a straw man people have created because it is easier than admitting they may be wrong. In any thread that is 100+ pages, that is due to trolling, and you can see literal posts of just silly gifs.

[Crede]

Ah this thread is getting ugly with all these pallies who have never played high lvl sks. Do me a favor and compare thurg heal click Vs dw bp click. Yikes. And pally hot Vs a slow ass inefficient tap. Sks also don’t even get 210 bind wound. Or mend. Monks/pallies are just way better at self healing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yea and skelly illusion removes slam. So any race will need a Inny’s Curse if you are trying to maximize dps while having a small chance of shutting down casters you can’t fear.

DSM, the only reason Pint doesn’t have a geared sk is because he doesn’t want one. Or doesn’t want to do it again (one knight is enough for most). It’s not that hard. Most if not all of the mechanics are the same, just a different tool kit. And yes, 60 means everything. Your skill caps aren’t evolved, your missing good spells and a disc, the npc is naturally a level higher than it has to be which as we all know matters. I know you mean well but just level your SK. I’ve pushed a bard and Druid to 60 since you were first being heckled about it.

Just one more point about skele illusion. If you were specifically referring to Soul Defiler, that weapon typically costs a lot of DKP, and it is pretty rare in terms of drop rate. If you can raid enough to get a Soul Defiler, you can get an Epic and simply swap to Epic when you need to bash, or click off Call To Bones if you need Slam on a ToV Weapon/Vulak Axe/Tunare Sword.

Ah this thread is getting ugly with all these pallies who have never played high lvl sks. Do me a favor and compare thurg heal click Vs dw bp click. Yikes. And pally hot Vs a slow ass inefficient tap. Sks also don’t even get 210 bind wound. Or mend. Monks/pallies are just way better at self healing.

Yeah I am not sure what Pint is talking about. If Pint wants he can post a video showing how much damage he takes per fight with 1500 AC. I've never heard of high AC mitigating so much damage you are only taking like 300 points of damage on a level 50+ mob. But with evidence like that I would be happy to be proven wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I did a quick test. With 328 worn AC and self buffs (a bit of buff AC on top of the worn AC), a geonid in WL (level 44-48) dealt 1000 damage to me just face tanking. This was 1250 AC on my sheet.

Pint is positing that getting 1 level and adding an extra 250 AC on sheet is going to reduce that 1000 damage by half or more on a Geonid. I would honestly like to see that. If being level 60 and having 1500 sheet AC equates to level 45+ mobs dealing 400 damage or less on average, then you can use Fungi + Troll Regen + Fearsome Shield + Ring 10 to basically mitigate all of the damage.

[Toxigen]

I did a quick test. With 328 worn AC and self buffs (a bit of buff AC on top of the worn AC), a geonid in WL (level 44-48) dealt 1000 damage to me just face tanking. This was 1250 AC on my sheet.

Pint is positing that getting 1 level and adding an extra 250 AC on sheet is going to reduce that 1000 damage by half or more on a Geonid. I would honestly like to see that. If being level 60 and having 1500 sheet AC equates to level 45+ mobs dealing 400 damage or less on average, then you can use Fungi + Troll Regen + Fearsome Shield + Ring 10 to basically mitigate all of the damage.

Its not going to reduce the damage by half lol thats nonsense.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Its not going to reduce the damage by half lol thats nonsense.

I agree lol. That is why I am not sure what Pint is talking about.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The most generous interpretation I can give is being level 60 and having 1500 AC reduces a level 45 mob's damage by 20% over my character (just a wild guess). With Vulak Axe you are probably killing the mob 15% faster over something like Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge.

If level 45 mobs only do 1000 damage on average (not enough data to confirm this right now), then Troll Regen + Fungi Tunic + Fearsome Shield + Ring 10 + 2 well spaced Epic Procs would mitigate like 800 damage per fight. With the faster kill speed and better reduction, you would be taking like 700 damage and healing 800.

However, if you have fought in a place like Sebilis, you know that mobs aren't just doing 1000 damage on average if you are soloing. I've had a Bok Knight (level 47 mob) do 4000 damage to me in a 2.5 minute fight when I was face tanking it at level 58. I had to drain my entire mana pool on taps to survive. Obviously having the level 60 tap would have been a bit better, but I would still be spending over half of my mana.

With the formula above you wouldn't out-mitigate 4000 damage. 20% reduction from AC and level would be 800 damage, and you are mitigating like 800 a minute from regen and Epic procs, so you are still taking like 1200 damage on a Bok Knight after all that. You could spend 900 mana on 4 taps to make that up (4.5 minutes of meditating), or you could simply fear kite the thing and spend a bit more time killing it to spend a lot less time meditating.

The above is just rough guesswork based on my years of experience playing the game. As I said I would love to see a video showing vastly superior mitigation. I would be happy to admit I am wrong.

[Crede]

The most generous interpretation I can give is being level 60 and having 1500 AC reduces a level 45 mob's damage by 20% over my character (just a wild guess). With Vulak Axe you are probably killing the mob 15% faster over something like Ancient Fire Etched Flamberge.

If level 45 mobs only do 1000 damage on average (not enough data to confirm this right now), then Troll Regen + Fungi Tunic + Fearsome Shield + Ring 10 + 2 well spaced Epic Procs would mitigate like 800 damage per fight. With the faster kill speed and better reduction, you would be taking like 700 damage and healing 800.

However, if you have fought in a place like Sebilis, you know that mobs aren't just doing 1000 damage on average if you are soloing. I've had a Bok Knight (level 47 mob) do 4000 damage to me in a 2.5 minute fight when I was face tanking it at level 58. I had to drain my entire mana pool on taps to survive. Obviously having the level 60 tap would have been a bit better, but I would still be spending over half of my mana.

With the formula above you wouldn't out-mitigate 4000 damage. 20% reduction from AC and level would be 800 damage, and you are mitigating like 800 a minute from regen and Epic procs, so you are still taking like 1200 damage on a Bok Knight after all that. You could spend 900 mana on 4 taps to make that up (4.5 minutes of meditating), or you could simply fear kite the thing and spend a bit more time killing it to spend a lot less time meditating.

The above is just rough guesswork based on my years of experience playing the game. As I said I would love to see a video showing vastly superior mitigation. I would be happy to admit I am wrong.

There’s no disputing the efficiency of fear kiting. It’s part of the sk toolbox that if ignored, you’re either choosing to be inefficient or simply don’t understand how sks work. Similar to sk pet which can potentially provide more dps than a vulak upgrade. And this isn’t just fear kiting at 100%. You can drop a snare at 40% with some fears and pretty much kill the mob in place depending on its movement speed combined with bashes(slam is preferred to avoid epic swap). Sks solo efficiency lies in their mana pool, so getting rid of the narandi helm is a terrible idea, unless you’re tanking in a group/raid where your mana isn’t needed. Again though, just a lot of people here who quite obviously have never played an sk, or if they have not above 50, or if they have, not efficiently.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I did a quick test using https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6sBgpShINY&list=PLzxluIkkayu9Deg0NtKbG0LVcnuQ59GtJ&index=11 - Keerarae's video on a Cliff Golem. I put a few more AC pieces on too just to try and get as close as possible. In the video he has 395 worn AC and a bit of buff AC with his willsapper + shield. I am doing an unslowed DPS comparison over 34 seconds, since it takes him 34 seconds to slow the Golem, and I don't have willsapper.

I had 352 worn AC and a bit of buff AC. I took roughly 34 DPS from the Cliff Golem over 34 seconds, vs. Keerarae taking 30.7 DPS or so. Obviously these numbers can be very swingy over 34 seconds (especially on a Cliff Golem), but it's a start. His extra 1 level and 43 AC might have given him about 10% damage reduction, which certainly isn't bad.

It isn't going to be enough to forego fear kiting, however, if you want to save resources.

[Pint]

Too much napkin math itt and still talking around this OPs questions. End game sk iksar solid choice, not worse then other races for crawling, arguably better. BE clickies will not save you significant mana bc you probably aren't fear kiting frogloks at the end game.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Too much napkin math itt and still talking around this OPs questions. End game sk iksar solid choice, not worse then other races for crawling, arguably better. BE clickies will not save you significant mana bc you probably aren't fear kiting frogloks at the end game.

You could submit some videos of you face tanking stuff with your Paladin so we can get more parses. Right now the evidence is against you. Simply calling things "napkin math" that go against your argument is not a proper argument, especially when you don't have any evidence.

Blood Ember > Iksar AC Bonus for crawling. Troll is going to be better than an Iksar. You can indeed fear kite in Sebilis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUYKBvYpPyM

Nobody has said Iksars can't crawl. OP specifically asked if armor clickies are a good source of mana saving, and the answer is yes. Any SK race can crawl, some will simply be slower than others.

[Crede]

Trust me OP you will keep the BE gaunts, boots, and legs pretty much perma equipped if you have them all by 45. They’re that good.

Iksar plenty capable of crawling but lol @ the people who think it ain’t saving mana

[Ennewi]

Too much napkin math itt and still talking around this OPs questions. End game sk iksar solid choice, not worse then other races for crawling, arguably better. BE clickies will not save you significant mana bc you probably aren't fear kiting frogloks at the end game.

From another thread but more detailed than the original post...

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3617161#post3617161

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I have a question I was hoping to have answered. I don't mean to defile OP's post with a change of topic, but the information and discussion in this thread seem quite good.
I am returning to p99 after quite the break (never raided). The only two classes I am considering are SK or Pally - I am almost exclusively a solo player - I may get into casual raiding to finish epics etc but nothing super hardcore.
Not targeting specific solo artist kills but what class do you think solo crawls dungeons better (including some lesser names), think Seb, HS, Chardok etc.

So their end-game goal is not full bis, but the lower hanging fruit.

[Pint]

From another thread but more detailed than the original post...

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3617161#post3617161



So their end-game goal is not full bis, but the lower hanging fruit.

Then I submit, he definitely wants to crutch on the clicks.

[Pint]

i have parses of a lot of sebilis stuff and a couple of cliff golems i killed like a week ago but gamparse doesnt seem to give much info in the way of tanking. not sure if im doing something wrong with gamparse settings? i dont think youre going to take 50% less dmg, thats sounds like something silly you drummed up. i can say that at high ac places like sebilis stop being a challenge. i can take some SS's so you dont have to take my word for it, but for instance if i spot check a dar ghoul kill i see that i killed a dar ghoul knight and its dmg to me was 477 over 90 seconds. Krup ghoul knight 135 second fight 838 dmg to PC etc. i see though that end game is relative and i was the one making assumptions though. i think if you do get to 6k/1500ac though you'll find yourself fearing less and watching your passive tap procs pull a lot of weight in places like kunark.

[Snaggles]

Just one more point about skele illusion. If you were specifically referring to Soul Defiler, that weapon typically costs a lot of DKP, and it is pretty rare in terms of drop rate. If you can raid enough to get a Soul Defiler, you can get an Epic and simply swap to Epic when you need to bash, or click off Call To Bones if you need Slam on a ToV Weapon/Vulak Axe/Tunare Sword.


Yep I typed "inny's curse" instead of soul defiler. Just a mental swap. Had one on live and always found that annoying as an ogre.

[Pint]

We ought to schedule a time to meet up with our variously geared knights and do a little real time experimenting. I can bring end game paladin or sk.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We ought to schedule a time to meet up with our variously geared knights and do a little real time experimenting. I can bring end game paladin or sk.

Yeah let's do it! I replied to your PM.

[Duik]

I have the last word.

[greatdane]

Since OP specifically asked for input about solo-crawling (which presumably means dungeon-crawling), the fact remains that there are so few places inside dungeons where it's safe and practical to fear-kite that missing out on BE is a lot less of a downside. There's a select few places in dungeons where you can pull a mob to some safe area and carefully fear-kite it, but I wouldn't call that dungeon-crawling. If you want to actually move through a dungeon, killing as you go, fear-kiting is virtually impossible except for a tiny selection of places like certain portions of Howling Stones. In almost all places, you'll either train yourself or the mobs will get feared into water and shit like that.

[Crede]

Since OP specifically asked for input about solo-crawling (which presumably means dungeon-crawling), the fact remains that there are so few places inside dungeons where it's safe and practical to fear-kite that missing out on BE is a lot less of a downside. There's a select few places in dungeons where you can pull a mob to some safe area and carefully fear-kite it, but I wouldn't call that dungeon-crawling. If you want to actually move through a dungeon, killing as you go, fear-kiting is virtually impossible except for a tiny selection of places like certain portions of Howling Stones. In almost all places, you'll either train yourself or the mobs will get feared into water and shit like that.

I found fear kiting to work exceptionally well, especially with slam. I was doing it in HS, hole, KC, etc. It became a lot of fun finding different spots, and once I got in a nice groove I could go for a long period of time without needing a break. I used most of my mana on dooming darkness as in many cases the engulfing snare from the BE click wasn't good enough. But it was really good at like 40% when dooming wore off and I knew the mob was about to stop soon, and also effective for splitting a mobs as engulfing is enough to stop them in their tracks after you FD. You don't specifically need space initially to fear kite either, you can create space by killing a few mobs first and knowing their timer. There is nothing more efficient than fear kiting from a mitigation perspective which is huge for a class like SK which have very limited ways of efficient healing, they don't even get 210 bind wound whereas a pally does(weird). It workedreally great against casters too dropping a fear so they could never land cheal or big nukes whereas even a class like a monk would struggle since push interrupt isn't really viable anymore.

As already mentioned BE isn't necessary, but it's an advantage. And it isn't just limited to fear kiting, as you can use the greaves for a free 3 second FD with no recast time.

[ya.dingus]

Human SK if you're the real chad.

Troll just if you're like, eh, i want regen.

[Pint]

Anyone have a standard 60 knight 1200-1250ac? That they want to parse with wed or Thurs night?

[greatdane]

Nobody's gonna indulge you when you talk up your silly version of reality as some sort of universally applicable truth, while everyone who knows the game is aware that it doesn't really apply. Under no conceivable circumstances is fear-kiting inside dungeons "excellent" or universally viable, but in your odd desperation to be a contrarian to every opinion anybody ever posts, you have managed to concoct a view that suggests it is. Why, after presenting such a ridiculous statement, should anyone volunteer their time to satisfy any other equally silly notions you might have? Odds are that if the results conflict with what you had decided ahead of time, you'll invent some imaginary counter-argument for that as well.

Go to any dungeon. Are people fear-kiting in it? No? Well, how about that. It's because aside from a select few places where it might be doable, it is generally suicide. For that reason, since OP asked specifically about dungeon-crawling, it is wildly dishonest and misleading to suggest that picking iksar is a huge disadvantage due to the unavailability of BE gloves+boots. Now, realistically, he won't spend his whole life soloing in dungeons; but that is nevertheless the context that he asked about. Your statement is patently invalid in that context. There are other reasons why iksar is a sub-optimal choice, but fear-kiting inside dungeons is not one of them. Stop pretend it is. The tryhard bullshit on this forum is bad enough as it is.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nobody's gonna indulge you when you talk up your silly version of reality as some sort of universally applicable truth, while everyone who knows the game is aware that it doesn't really apply. Under no conceivable circumstances is fear-kiting inside dungeons "excellent" or universally viable, but in your odd desperation to be a contrarian to every opinion anybody ever posts, you have managed to concoct a view that suggests it is. Why, after presenting such a ridiculous statement, should anyone volunteer their time to satisfy any other equally silly notions you might have? Odds are that if the results conflict with what you had decided ahead of time, you'll invent some imaginary argumen for that as well.

Go to any dungeon. Are people fear-kiting in it? No? Well, how about that. It's because aside from a select few places where it might be doable, it is generally suicide. For that reason, since OP asked specifically about dungeon-crawling, it is wildly dishonest and misleading to suggest that picking iksar is a huge disadvantage due to the unavailability of BE gloves+boots. Now, realistically, he won't spend his whole life soloing in dungeons; but that is nevertheless the context that he asked about. Your statement is patently invalid in that context.

Please name a place where an SK can solo and where you cannot fear kite. Then we can test it. Do you have anything to back up your argument besides nonsense?

[greatdane]

Just about anywhere in any dungeon. How are you gonna fear kite anywhere that there isn't like fifty yards of no mobs inside a fucking dungeon? Come on. Stop being silly. We've all been to every dungeon. You couldnt even kill the first mob in Sebilis via fear-kiting, and the same goes for just about any section of every dungeon in this game. Is everyone here just full of shit? Are you trying to look badass by boasting?

There's a select few isolated places in dungeons where you can fear-kite without immediately pulling adds. Since OP was specifically asking about dunegon-crawling, all your idiotic nonsense is inapplicable to his question.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just about anywhere in any dungeon. How are you gonna fear kite anywhere that there isn't like fifty yards of no mobs inside a fucking dungeon? Come on. Stop being silly. We've all been to every dungeon. You couldnt even kill the first mob in Sebilis via fear-kiting, and the same goes for just about any section of every dungeon in this game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUYKBvYpPyM - Here is a video of me fear kiting Seb Ent. You must feel real silly right now:)

[greatdane]

Yes, one video of one single location in one dungeon, by a raid-geared level 59 SK. Hurray. How many times have I pointed out that there's a few places you can, but nothing that would apply to OP's question of dungeon-crawling as an SK? Is this entire forum just some witless competition to find some singular example that idiots think proves an argument?

The guy is a new player. He's asking if his race choice will affect dungeon-crawling. What miniscule and largely-irrelevant place does your argument rest on when you post a video of you briefly fear-kiting one mob in one single portion of a dungeon? Do you expect that to be what this guy meant when he asked about solo-crawling? Of course not.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Yes, one video of one single location in one dungeon. Hurray. How many times have I pointed out that there's a few places you can, but nothing that would apply to OP's question of dungeon-crawling as an SK? Is this entire forum just some witless competition to find some singular example that idiots think proves an argument?

You literally said an SK can't fear kite Seb Ent. Why should we believe you when I just proved that wrong?

Sorry, but you are just a silly person right now. Do you have any evidence for your claims?


The guy is a new player. He's asking if his race choice will affect dungeon-crawling. What miniscule and largely-irrelevant place does your argument rest on when you post a video of you briefly fear-kiting one mob in one single portion of a dungeon? Do you expect that to be what this guy meant when he asked about solo-crawling? Of course not.

You didn't even watch the video, as I am killing more than one mob lol. You don't need raid gear to do this either. You have just made a number of false statements, and have yet to back them up with anything other than acting like a jackass.

[greatdane]

You literally said an SK can't fear kite Seb Ent. Why should we believe you when I just proved that wrong?

Sorry, but you are just a silly person right now. Do you have any evidence for your claims?



You didn't even watch the video, as I am killing more than one mob lol. You don't need raid gear to do this either.

You facetanked a green mob for like 80% of that video. Do you think that applies to the question that OP asked? I strongly doubt that's what he had in mind. I don't think he was asking if a level 59 geared SK can break into Sebilis. Under no circumstances can a guy who asks newbie questions expect to fear-kite inside dungeons and not die five times an hour. You know that, too. Going back to content you overlevel and outgear proves nothing whatsoever, and attempting to use it as an argument is silly in the extreme.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You facetanked a green mob for like 80% of that video. Do you think that applies to the question that OP asked? I strongly doubt that's what he had in mind.

I cleared the first 8 mobs, and died at the end simply due to a small mistake. You have just shown people you are willing to make a false statement because you are too lazy to scrub a video. What other false statements are you making?

You don't need raid gear to fear kite in a dungeon, even lower leveled ones. You just need a good understanding of the spawn points and the pathing. I think it is pretty insulting that you just assume new players are unable to learn the game.

[Ripqozko]

This is why Vanquish died.

[Pint]

This is why Vanquish died.

I thought it died bc detoxx got SoD x2 and ran out of things to upgrade

[Duik]

Dungeon crawling involves more than just the one place. But that dont matter to you.
Until you learn pathing, fearing is fraught with danger. But you know this already.
Troll by character, troll by nature.
Kudos.

[Vexenu]

Putting aside the talk about the usefulness of Blood Ember armor for dungeon soloing, BE armor does have another very real benefit that hasn't been mentioned: it allows an SK to indefinitely sustain a Monk style power level by FDing mana-free with the greaves. And you can even snare with the gauntlets to keep the mob from fleeing while the powerlevelee finishes it off. To be fair, an Iksar with enough FT and Clarity/PoTG could probably sustain a decent PL with castable FD. But having it available on the Greaves makes it a hell of a lot easier.

[Snaggles]

Almost every zone you can fear kite at the entrance. Try that crap in Disco, lol. Yes killing something fearable using fear is more efficient, I didn’t think we had to prove this one.

The dungeon crawl with a melee is a painful concept. With slower kills and slower repops the justification for the “less efficient” route is obvious. You bypass the crap you don’t want to kill. You snare the one thing you do want to kill so it doesn’t run off. You burn all your mana on taps and med for another repop hoping for a named spawn.

Most people with really good gear don’t need to fear kite. They CAN, they just don’t need to. Plus at some point some of the things you want to kill aren’t fearable or reliably so. A -200 check lifetap will certainly land.

I guess again for lack of established definitions the argument is over “crawl” or even “dungeon”. To flop past rubbish or if the OP was talking about camping the Ghoul Assassin in lguk. I guess we will never know.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Almost every zone you can fear kite at the entrance. Try that crap in Disco, lol. Yes killing something fearable using fear is more efficient, I didn’t think we had to prove this one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI_IJ_F1GCY - This was me making my way down to disco with a mix of fear kiting and face tanking. Didn't get all the way due to not FDing a DoT when I should have, but you can clearly see it's doable. I'll see about doing a disco specific video next.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJwu-fFy0dk - Pint and I did a small test to see how much damage we took face tanking. Thank you for taking the time Pint!

Kongfuzi Level = 60
Kongfuzi HP = 4362
Kongfuzi AC = 1434
Kongfuzi MP = 2246

Bazgek Level = 59
Bazgek HP = 2864
Bazgek AC = 1080
Bazgek MP = 2018

Opponents: https://wiki.project1999.com/Mentrax_Mountainbone and https://wiki.project1999.com/Eldak_Howlingbear

Parse 1: Kongfuzi Damage Taken: 2405 over 133 seconds = 18 DPS
Parse 2: Kongfuzi Damage Taken: 2559 over 108 seconds = 23.7 DPS
Average = 20.85 DPS

Parse 1: Bazgek Damage Taken: 2,892 over 129 seconds = 22.4 DPS
Parse 2: Bazgek Damage Taken: 3,547 over 143 seconds = 24.8 DPS
Average = 23.6 DPS

Kongfuzi's damage was reduced by: ~12%

Due to the small number of parses, this is not a true average, just a guesstimate.

Pint was definitely impressive with his 4k HP and Vulak Axe. As you can see, the damage reduction is noticeable. However, you are still taking a couple thousand damage per fight.

An SK can mitigate 390 per minute via regen with Troll/Iksar Regen + Aura of Battle + Fungi + Ring 10.
An SK can mitigate 500 per minute on average via Epic.
An SK can mitigate 100 per minute on average via Shroud of Death/Undeath.

The average fight was ~2 minutes, so you could mitigate ~2000 damage per kill. That leaves ~400-500 Damage on the table, which is the equivalent of 1.5 Life Taps, or 337 mana.

In my opinion it looks like Blood Ember for FD and Fear Kiting is still a good option to save HP/Mana, even at 60 with full raid gear. These two giants we are fighting are only level 50, so higher level mobs that are still fearable will be doing more damage.

[Jimjam]

Wow, didn’t realise the SK epic had so much impact compared to everything else an SK has :o

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Wow, didn’t realise the SK epic had so much impact compared to everything else an SK has :o

Yeah Epic is quite nice, SKs need all the self healing they can get.

[Crede]

Wow, didn’t realise the SK epic had so much impact compared to everything else an SK has :o

Sk epic is game changing. Looks awesome too. By far my favorite epic.

[Vexenu]

In my opinion it looks like Blood Ember for FD and Fear Kiting is still a good option to save HP/Mana, even at 60 with full raid gear. These two giants we are fighting are only level 50, so higher level mobs that are still fearable will be doing more damage.
I'm not sure how anyone can argue otherwise. Even BiS tank gear obviously can't compete with a spell combo (Fear/snare) that reduces your damage taken to literally zero.

That being said, fear kiting on a melee is annoying AF, so I can understand why people wouldn't want to do it even if it is the most efficient soloing strategy. Much easier to just face tank with lifetaps, then AFK between kills while medding with Fungi.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not sure how anyone can argue otherwise. Even BiS tank gear obviously can't compete with a spell combo (Fear/snare) that reduces your damage taken to literally zero.

That being said, fear kiting on a melee is annoying AF, so I can understand why people wouldn't want to do it even if it is the most efficient soloing strategy. Much easier to just face tank with lifetaps, then AFK between kills while medding with Fungi.

Agreed. With 400-500 damage left unmitigated you can spend 1-2 minutes meditating or spamming BP click, kind of like a Paladin with Deepwater BP at that point hehe. Certainly a valid style of play if you are too lazy to fear kite.

[Crede]

I'm not sure how anyone can argue otherwise. Even BiS tank gear obviously can't compete with a spell combo (Fear/snare) that reduces your damage taken to literally zero.

That being said, fear kiting on a melee is annoying AF, so I can understand why people wouldn't want to do it even if it is the most efficient soloing strategy. Much easier to just face tank with lifetaps, then AFK between kills while medding with Fungi.

Slam helped a lot with this annoyance. I learned to enjoy it after awhile because it opened up some options without needing to afk forever to regen health or click the slow bp. Another thing is to just fear at like 40-50%. The mob won’t be moving as fast at this point eventually coming to a complete stop which makes it more tolerable. Having a max/2nd max pet was also a game changer at 52 & 58.

[Tann]

This thread has thoroughly convinced me that Iksar is the best choice, should I ever start an SK I'd def go lizard.

Not like I could ever complete an epic as a filthy casual player, but pretending that I could.. would a decent amount of faction work be necessary? Reading through the quest I see Qeynos Sk guild, OT outpost, etc..

[Ripqozko]

This thread has thoroughly convinced me that Iksar is the best choice, should I ever start an SK I'd def go lizard.

Not like I could ever complete an epic as a filthy casual player, but pretending that I could.. would a decent amount of faction work be necessary? Reading through the quest I see Qeynos Sk guild, OT outpost, etc..

a casual could easy do it, just buy the soul leach MQ for like 150, you can get half that exping off guards. hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

a casual could easy do it, just buy the soul leach MQ for like 150, you can get half that exping off guards. hope that helps.

Agreed. SK Epic is more doable than others, and it will replace Greenmist.

[Crede]

This thread has thoroughly convinced me that Iksar is the best choice, should I ever start an SK I'd def go lizard.

Not like I could ever complete an epic as a filthy casual player, but pretending that I could.. would a decent amount of faction work be necessary? Reading through the quest I see Qeynos Sk guild, OT outpost, etc..

Curious what convinced you?

Go troll and just get epic. Best of all worlds.

[Tann]

Curious what convinced you?

Go troll and just get epic. Best of all worlds.

the thread just felt so oppressively pro BE clickies that I had to be an anti-establishment hipster and go the iksar route, then I started one and saw the running animation.. troll it is!

[Jimjam]

the thread just felt so oppressively pro BE clickies that I had to be an anti-establishment hipster and go the iksar route, then I started one and saw the running animation.. troll it is!

This is somewhat fixable by downloading the wolf form fix or whatever it was BUT most other players still see you look dumb. Try switching sex to female? I think they animate differently?? And got cool facepaints.

[Crede]

the thread just felt so oppressively pro BE clickies that I had to be an anti-establishment hipster and go the iksar route, then I started one and saw the running animation.. troll it is!

lol. yea, the iksar 2HS animation is even worse.

[Troxx]

If I was gonna make a SK I’d go troll. Best all around option imo between start stats, regen, kunark clickies and slam.

[Toxigen]

Yeah but you've got a tubbybutt.

[Troxx]

Maybe I like a little junk in the trunk!

Biggest down side is being a fat ass in tight spaces with no ability to shrink without chugging a potion

[Crede]

If I was gonna make a SK I’d go troll. Best all around option imo between start stats, regen, kunark clickies and slam.

trolls are the master race for war/sham/sk. The combination of regen, kunark/snare clickies, stats, and slam are just too good to pass up.

Lol @ anyone who thinks this is worth giving up for FSI or iksar AC.

[Jimjam]

Yeah but you've got a tubbybutt.

Thats why it’s minmax! Loaded up with disease clouds ready to fire (is it even modicum of aggro these days?)

[Toxigen]

trolls are the master race for war/sham/sk. The combination of regen, kunark/snare clickies, stats, and slam are just too good to pass up.

Lol @ anyone who thinks this is worth giving up for FSI or iksar AC.

gnome war tho

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Maybe I like a little junk in the trunk!

Biggest down side is being a fat ass in tight spaces with no ability to shrink without chugging a potion

You can fix said tubbybutt with Shroud of Undeath, Soul Defiler, or AoN. You wouldn't be able to slam in Skeleton form with most weapons, but you can with Epic.

Skeleton form with SK Epic is the height of fashion.

Thats why it’s minmax! Loaded up with disease clouds ready to fire (is it even modicum of aggro these days?)

Not anymore sadly. You want to use Shadow Vortex, Shroud of Hate, and Clinging Darkness now.

[Jimjam]

It will be back and all the more powerful when you consider the capacitation of the gas!!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It will be back and all the more powerful when you consider the capacitation of the gas!!

Lol I do hope so.

[greatdane]

trolls are the master race for war/sham/sk. The combination of regen, kunark/snare clickies, stats, and slam are just too good to pass up.

Lol @ anyone who thinks this is worth giving up for FSI or iksar AC.

Unless you're trying to solo as a warrior for some weird reason, regen is nearly worthless. Ogres have better stats, FSI (which is still worth something), and - crucially - don't have -20 fire resist. The only time troll isn't dramatically worse than ogre is if you have some strange fetish about soloing with a class that has no business doing so. Regen is absolutely worthless anytime there's a healer of any kind. Even if we do pretend that you aren't at full HP 90% of the time, the miniscule amount of health gained is completely irrelevant.

It's a drop in a bucket that then gets emptied out into an industrial-sized vat that is subsequently drained into a freighter's liquid tank. Regenerating a few dozen hit points per minute is worth absolutely nothing when mobs are hitting for 100+ every two seconds and you have somewhere between 2k and 5k HP. Anyone who says otherwise is a moron. Soloing is the only exception, and soloing with a warrior is for morons.

Mind you, I do quite like regen on a shaman or SK. Those classes can actually make use of it.

[Ennewi]

Pulling as a SK there have been times where FD wasn't enough to prevent death, due to a dot or two that landed and the group's healer being too far OOR to toss out a heal. Regen would have helped counter those dots. Granted, only a handful of times but it still. And there's always fungi/zlandi heart for those oh shit moments but most players aren't going to have either of those.

[Troxx]

Regen is absolutely worthless anytime there's a healer of any kind.

That’s a pretty dumb statement.

It might even be a contender for the single most dumbass thing ever uttered on these forums.

Congrats?

[Gloomlord]

That’s a pretty dumb statement.

It might even be a contender for the single most dumbass thing ever uttered on these forums.

Congrats?

I think Shaman being a better DPS than Mage may take the cake. lol

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I think Shaman being a better DPS than Mage may take the cake. lol

Why are you discussing your own delusions? You keep reading "Shamans can out DPS Mages via root/rotting" as "Shamans always do more DPS than Mages".

Please stop making yourself look bad both in terms of reading comprehension, and posting offtopic nonsense.

Do you actually have any input towards the topic at hand?

That’s a pretty dumb statement.

It might even be a contender for the single most dumbass thing ever uttered on these forums.

Congrats?

Why do you have to be so nasty on these forums? You continue to just make yourself look bad.

Regeneration has much less utility in a group with a good healer. Is it useless? No, but it's utility goes down quite a bit. That is why Troll/Iksar Regeneration loses a lot of utility once a Shaman gets Torpor. Having +300 HP Regen makes the +8 extra standing regen basically unnoticeable. Often times I don't even bother to cast Regrowth on myself, which is +15 HP/Tick. It just isn't necessary.

[Worry]

I'm not sure why there is so much vitriol over race choices lol...

I have both ogre and troll of Sham/SK and have leveled to max on all four. I like ogre better on both, however I did find it a bit easier lower level on troll SK. That was also my second SK, so might have been me just being better at the class.

I have never played a warrior so I have no comment on that and I don't minmax for BIS so I have no idea how having the highest end raid gear would change my opinion on it.

Trolls look a lot better in this era, though.

[Gloomlord]

Nobody is believing your lies, DSM.

Also, nice hypocrisy with calling Troxx "nasty". Like you're some moral paragon of integrity?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nobody is believing your lies, DSM.

Also, nice hypocrisy with calling Troxx "nasty". Like you're some moral paragon of integrity?

Please stop posting your delusions across these forums. Nobody cares, and it is off-topic.

Do you have anything useful to say about the topic at hand?

[Gloomlord]

Do you?

Hark at the pot calling the kettle black.

Also, I don't know why I'm reiterating this for the billionth time already, but: we told you in *that* thread that Shaman shouldn't be root rotting in a group that isn't tailored for it. And the only reason we said that to begin with is because we showed you that Mage DPS is superior on a single target, so that was only your desperate attempt to try and win the argument.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Do you?

Hark at the pot calling the kettle black.

Also, I don't know why I'm reiterating this for the billionth time already, but: we told you in *that* thread that Shaman shouldn't be root rotting in a group that isn't tailored for it. And the only reason we said that to begin with is because we showed you that Mage DPS is superior on a single target, so that was only your desperate attempt to try and win the argument.

I do not care either. People can read the thread and see you made 350+ useless posts that were just insults. That is basically your entire post count. I am not sure why you want to keep embarrassing yourself.

I ask that you stop posting misinformation on the forums, as it helps no one. Your delusions are not relevant to the topic at hand.

Please comment on the topic at hand, or stop posting here.

[Troxx]

I do not care either.

You sure do post a lot for someone who doesn’t care.

https://i.makeagif.com/media/1-28-2016/ws3T8I.gif

[Gloomlord]

I do not care either. People can read the thread and see you made 350+ useless posts that were just insults. That is basically your entire post count. I am not sure why you want to keep embarrassing yourself.

I ask that you stop posting misinformation on the forums, as it helps no one. Your delusions are not relevant to the topic at hand.

Please comment on the topic at hand, or stop posting here.

Hey, you didn't need to respond to my post to begin with. Put me on ignore and be done with it. I think you just want the attention though, don't you?

I'm pretty secure in the knowledge that, apart from bcbrown (who is just self-righteous like you), nobody is going to think that when they read that thread. You're reaching now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Hey, you didn't need to respond to my post to begin with. Put me on ignore and be done with it. I think you just want the attention though, don't you?

I'm pretty secure in the knowledge that, apart from bcbrown (who is just self-righteous like you), nobody is going to think that when they read that thread. You're reaching now.

I do not put anyone on ignore. I have hope that everybody will redeem themselves, including yourself.

You also do not need to keep posting off topic nonsense for no reason. That is why I am asking you to stop.

You have contributed nothing to this thread, and nobody cares about your delusions regarding other threads.

[Troxx]

https://media.tenor.com/-WZPbJ2PUiAAAAAM/lion-derp.gif

[Gloomlord]

Well, why not? If I'm a "troll". You're just lying.

"Redeem themselves"? Do you honestly not see how utterly self-righteous this comment is? It's overflowing with hypocrisy and holier than thou arrogance.

You don't need to ask me to stop -- you can just stop replying.

Edit: Nice stealth edit. What "delusions"? ROFL! Okay...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Well, why not? If I'm a "troll". You're just lying.

"Redeem themselves"? Do you honestly not see how utterly self-righteous this comment is? It's overflowing with hypocrisy and holier than thou arrogance.

You don't need to ask me to stop -- you can just stop replying.

Trolling other threads with delusional nonsense is not helping anybody. That is why you should stop. I am not sure why you got so hurt by a 20 year old elf sim thread, but I feel sorry for you.

[Gloomlord]

The mask is beginning to fall off your face, DSM. The power of the lie has its limits, afterall.

You go from saying "redeem themselves" to saying "I'm not sure why you got hurt by a 20 year old elf sim". Not to mention throwing out "delusions" without one explanation as to what that is about.

It's such a shame you'll never admit you just exposed yourself.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The mask is beginning to fall off your face, DSM. The power of the lie has its limits, afterall.

You go from saying "redeem themselves" to saying "I'm not sure why you got hurt by a 20 year old elf sim". Not to mention throwing out "delusions" without one explanation as to what that is about.

It's such a shame you'll never admit you just exposed yourself.

This will be my last reply to you in this thread. It is clear you are not going to discuss the topic at hand, and your delusional ramblings are getting worse.

The only thing I can do is ask you to stop. I have done so multiple times. You are not helping anybody, including yourself.

I believe you can change your ways, and will continue to hope that it happens.

[Gloomlord]

DSM, you're clearly a troll. Whether it's a defence mechanism from your ego getting popped, or whether it's from mere sadism, it doesn't matter. I'm glad you've basically admitted this with your post.

Game, Set, Match.

[Jimjam]

Just going back to mr turtle. Generally the hit size distributions are normal. That means bell shaped (2/3 of the hit amounts occur close to the middle and values further from the most common become increasingly rare).

When attack and mitigation match then the height of the curve manifests at the central value, meaning few hits of min or max value.

2d10 gives a fair approximation of normally distributed di 1-20 (the value for 1 is actually missing for this model, but it is close). By this model there is about 1% chance to hit for max (rolling two tens is a 1-100 chance. Compare that to the number of ways of making the most common result - an 11- 1,10.2,9.3,8.4,7.5,6 and so on - 10/100: a 10% chance).

If, as you report, you are scoring 11% max hits on the turtle, you are performing like ten times better than you would on mobs that mitigate normally. I wonder if that was the frequency of your max hit, how frequent were your minimum hits?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Just going back to mr turtle. Generally the hit size distributions are normal. That means bell shaped (2/3 of the hit amounts occur close to the middle and values further from the most common become increasingly rare).

When attack and mitigation match then the height of the curve manifests at the central value, meaning few hits of min or max value.

2d10 gives a fair approximation of normally distributed di 1-20 (the value for 1 is actually missing for this model, but it is close). By this model there is about 1% chance to hit for max (rolling two tens is a 1-100 chance. Compare that to the number of ways of making the most common result - an 11- 1,10.2,9.3,8.4,7.5,6 and so on - 10/100: a 10% chance).

If, as you report, you are scoring 11% max hits on the turtle, you are performing like ten times better than you would on mobs that mitigate normally. I wonder if that was the frequency of your max hit, how frequent were your minimum hits?

I think you posted in the wrong thread? I also didn't say I got 11% max hits on the turtle, so I am not sure what you are talking about. It was 2.2% on the 2H test.

[Jimjam]

Yes i made a whoopsie :)

[greatdane]

That’s a pretty dumb statement.

It might even be a contender for the single most dumbass thing ever uttered on these forums.

Congrats?

Troll/iksar bonus regen gives (when standing) +1/tick until level 51, +4/tick until 56, +7/tick until 60, and +8/tick at 60. Since we're talking about tanks and warriors specifically (I appreciate this thread is about SK races, but you replied to a comment about warriors), the character is never going to be sitting, so only standing regen values matter. It doesn't matter that you get more when sitting, a warrior will never be sitting.

Obviously, this racial ability is totally worthless up until level 51, so let's take a level 56 troll warrior for our example. His race gives him 7 HP per tick, or 70 per minute. That's 4200 HP per hour. In reality, it's significantly less because the warrior will be at full HP quite a lot of the time, so let's say it's half of that. In reality, it's probably way less than half unless the healer is OOM all the time.

Let's take a level 56 cleric. He regenerates 21 mana per tick, or 210 per minute. 12600 per hour, but let's say 10000 because he isn't sitting 100% of the time. Since it's kind of impossible to calculate the HPM of Complete Healing, we'll say that he uses exclusively Celestial Healing and Divine Light. Let's suppose he uses both equally. The former has a HPM of 3.2 and the latter has 2.6, so an average of 2.9.

Troll/iksar regen (at 56) provides:
7 HP/tick
70 HP/minute
4200 HP/hour (but really more like ~2000 since any time spent at full HP is wasted)

Cleric's mana regen provides:
61 HP/tick
610 HP/minute
29000 HP/hour

The cleric's numbers are easily doubled if using CH, but we can't really do math on that. In that event, racial regen would account for less than one twentieth of what the healer provides, and CH mana efficiency on an ogre's slightly bigger HP pool would probably match it. Granted, not every healer is a cleric, so there's no point launching into a bunch of CH theorycrafting.

Suffice to say that troll/iksar regen accounts for an insignificantly miniscule portion of healing, and is literally entirely worthless in any scenario where the healer's mana isn't being stressed. If the healer isn't running out of mana and creating downtime or deaths, troll regen could be five times higher than it currently is and it wouldn't actually amount to more XP/hour or less chance of wiping or whatever other metric by which one can measure its usefulness. It will never make any sort of difference. It's entirely unnoticeable.

Regen is good when you aren't getting healed, or when healing you would put an unnecessary burden on the healer. It's nice for a shaman spamming canni, or an SK soloing. That does not apply to tanks in groups where even such trivial things as the inevitable overhealing that happens non-stop across a grinding session makes tiny increments of regeneration meaningless. If regen really mattered to tanks, they would be wearing fungi tunics to any non-raid content. Spoiler alert: they don't, because when you're getting healed constantly and the healer's healing is ten or twenty times more efficient (in terms of mana per tick and healing per mana) than your passive regeneration, it just never affects anything and is meaningless.

In short, you're an imbecile.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Troll/iksar bonus regen gives (when standing) +1/tick until level 51, +4/tick until 56, +7/tick until 60, and +8/tick at 60. Since we're talking about tanks and warriors specifically (I appreciate this thread is about SK races, but you replied to a comment about warriors), the character is never going to be sitting, so only standing regen values matter. It doesn't matter that you get more when sitting, a warrior will never be sitting.

Obviously, this racial ability is totally worthless up until level 51, so let's take a level 56 troll warrior for our example. His race gives him 7 HP per tick, or 70 per minute. That's 4200 HP per hour. In reality, it's significantly less because the warrior will be at full HP quite a lot of the time, so let's say it's half of that. In reality, it's probably way less than half unless the healer is OOM all the time.

Let's take a level 56 cleric. He regenerates 21 mana per tick, or 210 per minute. 12600 per hour, but let's say 10000 because he isn't sitting 100% of the time. Since it's kind of impossible to calculate the HPM of Complete Healing, we'll say that he uses exclusively Celestial Healing and Divine Light. Let's suppose he uses both equally. The former has a HPM of 3.2 and the latter has 2.6, so an average of 2.9.

Troll/iksar regen (at 56) provides:
7 HP/tick
70 HP/minute
4200 HP/hour (but really more like ~2000 since any time spent at full HP is wasted)

Cleric's mana regen provides:
61 HP/tick
610 HP/minute
29000 HP/hour

The cleric's numbers are easily doubled if using CH, but we can't really do math on that. In that event, racial regen would account for less than one twentieth of what the healer provides, and CH mana efficiency on an ogre's slightly bigger HP pool would probably match it. Granted, not every healer is a cleric, so there's no point launching into a bunch of CH theorycrafting.

Suffice to say that troll/iksar regen accounts for an insignificantly miniscule portion of healing, and is literally entirely worthless in any scenario where the healer's mana isn't being stressed. If the healer isn't running out of mana and creating downtime or deaths, troll regen could be five times higher than it currently is and it wouldn't actually amount to more XP/hour or less chance of wiping or whatever other metric by which one can measure its usefulness.

In short, you're an imbecile.

Troxx is a well established troll on these forums at this point. He uses the idea that "other people agree with me" as the primary thrust of his arguments.

He used to actually believe in using data on live apparently, but this has long since vanished. He will simply tell you all your evidence is invalid, because he says so.

Generally speaking you can ignore him. I hope he changes his methods, but this is the current state of him.

You are correct that small amounts of HP Regen like +8 loses a lot of value when you are paired with a good healer that is not running into mana issues.

[Troxx]

TLDR.

You said:

“Regen is absolutely worthless anytime there's a healer of any kind.“

That is, indisputably, a stupid statement.

Hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You said:

“Regen is absolutely worthless anytime there's a healer of any kind.“

That is, indisputably, a stupid statement.

Hope that helps.

You also speak in verbiage that may be misread. I agree his sentiment was a bit extreme, but so was your reaction.

Try to work on yourself first before trolling others with your insults and nonsense.

[Troxx]

I did not insult him (at least not directly). I pointed out that his statement was dumb and possibly a competitor for the most dumbass statement on these forums. I’m sure he’s an intelligent fella. Sometimes smart people say dumb things. Nobody is perfect.

Then Gloomlord replied

I think Shaman being a better DPS than Mage may take the cake. lol

Which is a valid point indeed. I will have to concede that Gloodmlord is correct. Greatdane’s statement is clearly not the most dumbass thing said on these forums. That spot is already occupied.

I actually don’t completely disagree with Greatdane’s sentiment. In the presence of a dedicated healer, regen does become less important. This is even more true when you have a well oiled machine of a group where everyone is playing well, the only person taking damage is the tank and there is a cleric lazily tossing a complete heal every few minutes or mobs.

But he didn’t say regen is less important. He said:

Regen is absolutely worthless anytime there's a healer of any kind.

Absolutely worthless? As in no value? Dems be a strong words … and absolutely incorrect. Regen always adds value. Even if the value is saving the healer some extra mana.

Any kind of healer? Lol. I’ve leveled 2 priests to 60. I’ve leveled the other (cleric) to 59.82. Try to tell me with a straight face that extra regen doesn’t help when healing with a druid. I’ll laugh in your face. Or how about the shaman before they hit 60 and have torpor. For both classes their cast-able regen buffs make up the backbone of baseline healing. Shamans are a busy class with lots of productive things to do. Saving mana needed to heal the tank really frees up druid and pretorpor shaman massively. It’s why spell regen buffs are so valued. It is why hp regen items are so great. Racial regen isn’t really different. Value added is value added. It even can help out the cleric as groups are imperfect and you don’t always have fancy mind buffs.

There is a reason tanks who have them wear fungi’s (or ikky regen bps) if they have them and sacrifice stats and ac to do so. It is because regen is ANYTHING BUT absolutely worthless.

Regen for level range (Other vs Troll)

1-19: 1 stand 2 sit vs 2 stand 4 sit. (1 more hp/tick stand 2 more hp/tick sit)
20-49: 1 stand 3 sit vs 2 stand 6 sit. (1 more hp/tick stand 3 more hp/tick sit)
50: 1 stand 4 sit vs 2 stand 8 sit. (1 more hp/tick stand 4 more hp/tick sit)
51-55: 2 stand 5 sit vs 6 stand 12 sit. (3 more hp/tick stand 6 more hp/tick sit)
56-59: 3 stand 6 sit vs 10 stand 16 sit. (7 more hp/tick stand 10 more hp/tick sit)
60: 4 stand 7 sit vs 12 stand 18 sit. (8 more hp/tick stand 11 more hp/tick sit)

Most tanks don’t need a heal every fight. Passive regen is there between fights and while the sk is medding. As a druid or pretorpor shaman, healing the iksar monk is a lot easier and less mana intensive than the human monk. The also is true for the troll/iksar sk compared to all the other possible races.

They just require less healing over time.

So yeah …

Saying regen is absolutely worthless anytime there‘s a healer of any kind is a pretty dumb thing to say.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I did not insult him (at least not directly). I pointed out that his statement was dumb and possibly a competitor for the most dumbass statement on these forums. I’m sure he’s an intelligent fella. Sometimes smart people say dumb things. Nobody is perfect.

Then Gloomlord replied...


Splitting hairs over what is an insult and what isn't. Lovely. You cannot simply admit you sounded like an asshole there, and should maybe think for a few seconds before posting.

You also are lying about me saying that Shamans can always deal more damage than Mages. You aren't even referencing a real quote. You cannot even read a thread you have 473 posts in. Yet again, you're lies and trolling are just so easy to disprove.


I actually don’t completely disagree with Greatdane’s sentiment.


If you didn't completely disagree, you wouldn't have posted:

That’s a pretty dumb statement.

It might even be a contender for the single most dumbass thing ever uttered on these forums.

Congrats?

Please just troll less and stop trying to back out of every mistake you make. It's ok to be wrong sometimes, or make a mistake.

[Troxx]

FWIW if I were forced to retool my warrior and wasn’t allowed to be a dwarf again. I’d pick Troll. 18 more str, 19 more stamina, higher starting agility, slam, and racial regen. The only downsides are lower starting dex (which I value HIGHLY) and lack of being a dwarf. Dwarf warriors are beautiful and barrel roll rocks.

Do I sit often on my warrior in group? Not often but occasionally if between pulled and not full health. Would I pop a squat on my warrior if I were a troll when not full mana?

Uhhh … you bet your ass I would. 18hp/tick sitting is pretty damn nice.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

FWIW if I were forced to retool my warrior and wasn’t allowed to be a dwarf again. I’d pick Troll. 18 more str, 19 more stamina, higher starting agility, slam, and racial regen. The only downsides are lower starting dex (which I value HIGHLY) and lack of being a dwarf. Dwarf warriors are beautiful and barrel roll rocks.

Do I sit often on my warrior in group? Not often but occasionally if between pulled and not full health. Would I pop a squat on my warrior if I were a troll when not full mana?

Uhhh … you bet your ass I would. 18hp/tick sitting is pretty damn nice.

For sure. Troll Warrior is a great option. That's what I played on live (Troll Warrior).

Obviously you are getting some benefit from Regeneration. If you are an SK you can regen on a bad pull while flopped, for example.

It's simply heavily muted in a group for the most part if you have a good healer. If you are sitting for long stretches of time, your group probably isn't very efficient.

There is nothing wrong with an inefficient group, not everybody has to XP at maximum speeds. But that has less to do with Regeneration, and more to do with the specific group.

[Troxx]

If you didn't completely disagree, you wouldn't have posted:...

I completely disagreed with his statement. Because it was dumb. I am, however, understanding enough to comprehend the point he was trying to make.

But any modicum of “I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt” or grace he might have gotten from me went out the window with this snarky tidbit from Dr Douche-Canoe (from the same post as his dumbass statement):

and soloing with a warrior is for morons.

I’ll admit it irked and borderline triggered me.

I got sizable portions of my xp up to 60 solo. I did some of it even at 60 to make up rez death losses. This solo was out of necessity because the alternative was standing around with my finger up my nose semi afk while lfg. Anytime I was soloing, LFG was up and I was broadcasting myself.

Warriors with decent tools and gear can manage it fairly well. Snare whip, slow hammer, bloodpoints and backpacks full of bandages go a long way. Even better once we get evasive. Once you have bandaged up as high as your skill allows, you either pull the next or sit on your ass to regen a bit faster.

Exception to this (sitting once done bandaging) is once a warrior scores their first heal click bp. I was never rich enough to splurge on a cobalt bp, but I still carry this around for the click during downtime:

https://wiki.project1999.com/Champion%27s_Breastplate

I’m not sure if this is still clickable at a really low level (MQ to an alt) but I would have loved to have had it leveling my warrior. At 90 heal per 14.5 seconds that works out to 37hp/tick.

It stays parked in a weight reduction bag in lieu of my preferred Vindi bp for passive 2hp regen, AOB and resists.

Being troll would have made this process easier (albeit longer due to xp penalty).

Obviously you are getting some benefit from Regeneration. If you are an SK you can regen on a bad pull while flopped, for example

Precisely. And that’s why I said his statement was dumb. Like full on dumbass dumb. Solo or group … Healer or no … anyone who says “regen is worthless anytime you have a healer” is just flat out wrong.

[Crede]

There's a reason you have a million iksar monks and 2 human monks, regen is a big deal for melee classes especially ones that can easily find themselves FD'd in a corner needing to regen health asap.

Regen is arguably more important for SKs then any other class. They have to rely on slow BP clicks, shitty lifetaps, and hope for epic procs to heal themselves. Someone must have really hated Sks when you look at what spells pally got. Soul defiler might be the one saving grace, but this weapon is not easy to come by. And if you do get the weapon, regen complements this very nicely. If you plan to just be a raid tank, I could see the case for Ogre. But this would be a disservice to the class as they are fun to play outside of raids.

TLDR: Roll Troll SK and be done with it. And like Troxx, I'd reroll my dwarf war to Troll if I could.

[Troxx]

What sucks is my 60 monk is a female human ... sucks but fashionquest!

[Snaggles]

It’s all that matters in the end. Nobody waiting for innate regen for another flop pull.

[PatChapp]

Maybe I like a little junk in the trunk!

Biggest down side is being a fat ass in tight spaces with no ability to shrink without chugging a potion
But mini trolls are p.cute so fair trade

[Mira Bayt]

The reason is that I am new here. I love to play. I think
Iksar SKs are not worse for end-game solo crawling than other races. In fact, they can be quite good at it, thanks to their natural regeneration and the ability to use armor clickies.
The armor clickies are a big deal for mana saving. They can give you a significant boost to your AC, which can help you to take less damage and therefore need to cast less spells. This can be especially helpful in long solo fights, where mana can be a limiting factor.

Of course, no race is perfect for solo crawling. Some races, like Erudites, have better mana pools and regen, while others, like Trolls, have better survivability. But Iksar SKs are certainly a viable option for end-game solo crawling.

[Crede]

Often times I don't even bother to cast Regrowth on myself, which is +15 HP/Tick. It just isn't necessary.

Your take on regen w/ Torpor is just plain bad advice.

The fact that you aren't a troll/iksar, don't wear a fungi, and don't cast regrowth, means you're missing out on 40 hp/tick(42 but you have vindi bp). This is such a significant amount of HP regardless of your self healing capabilities(ask any necro who runs demi lich at 48/tick, it still hurts). It's enough to where depending on the situation & mana required, you might never have to actually heal yourself. Just canni as needed and let the regen do the rest.

Please be warned when trying to take advice from DSM.

[Snaggles]

While I wouldn’t play one again I always thought an ogre sk was decent if playing an active pulling roll. Bash is usually the first melee skill a NPC throws. Pulling 3-5 mobs that’s a lot of RNG dice being rolled. Whereas standing regen is nice but it’s pretty nominal unless you’re killing a lot of low level stuff. It’s basically 1.333dps mitigation at 60 where a fungi is a static 2.5 hence it being the GOAT twink item.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your take on regen w/ Torpor is just plain bad advice.

The fact that you aren't a troll/iksar, don't wear a fungi, and don't cast regrowth, means you're missing out on 40 hp/tick(42 but you have vindi bp). This is such a significant amount of HP regardless of your self healing capabilities(ask any necro who runs demi lich at 48/tick, it still hurts). It's enough to where depending on the situation & mana required, you might never have to actually heal yourself. Just canni as needed and let the regen do the rest.

Please be warned when trying to take advice from DSM.

I've played a Torpor Shaman for years, and was able to do everything without Fungi Tunic and Regrowth. This is a fact, and is backed up by basic math. You do realize +15 HP/Tick is only 5% of Torpor's Regeneration increase? The only way that would help you is if you are fighting a mob that happens to be doing Torpor + 5% worth of Regen in DPS. I haven't seen a mob with this specific DPS. Torpor Shamans can get all their HP/MP back in 3 minutes or less, they are going to be at full HP whenever they aren't in combat. This means they aren't really using regen out of combat.

Years of practical experience trumps your trolling.

You're just a silly troll who thinks insults are evidence. The only warning is listening to your continued nonsense. You are not helping anybody.

Nobody cares that you think you are cool for insulting other posters on an elf forum lol.

Troll/Iksar Regen is better on SK's who solo a lot, because they do not have Torpor.

[Toxigen]

DSM is our resident Milton and Torpor is his red Swingline stapler.

[Ripqozko]

Inc 50 pages of DSM again

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM is our resident Milton and Torpor is his red Swingline stapler.

Thank you for continuing to show you are just a troll. Whenever you cannot back up your points, you cower behind insults. Sad.

[Lowako]

Your take on regen w/ Torpor is just plain bad advice.

The fact that you aren't a troll/iksar, don't wear a fungi, and don't cast regrowth, means you're missing out on 40 hp/tick(42 but you have vindi bp). This is such a significant amount of HP regardless of your self healing capabilities(ask any necro who runs demi lich at 48/tick, it still hurts). It's enough to where depending on the situation & mana required, you might never have to actually heal yourself. Just canni as needed and let the regen do the rest.

Please be warned when trying to take advice from DSM.

thank god someone has actually pointed this out. I've never understood why people act like regen on shaman is useless at 60 because it has less value when torpor is active, completely discounting the fact that torporing yourself has a non trivial opportunity cost. the way people talk here make it sound like torpor is just a passive 300hp regen effect that costs 0 mana and has 0 drawback to it.

[Crede]

I've played a Torpor Shaman for years, and was able to do everything without Fungi Tunic and Regrowth. This is a fact, and is backed up by basic math. You do realize +15 HP/Tick is only 5% of Torpor's Regeneration increase? The only way that would help you is if you are fighting a mob that happens to be doing Torpor + 5% worth of Regen in DPS. I haven't seen a mob with this specific DPS. Torpor Shamans can get all their HP/MP back in 3 minutes or less, they are going to be at full HP whenever they aren't in combat. This means they aren't really using regen out of combat.

Years of practical experience trumps your trolling.

You're just a silly troll who thinks insults are evidence. The only warning is listening to your continued nonsense. You are not helping anybody.

Nobody cares that you think you are cool for insulting other posters on an elf forum lol.

Troll/Iksar Regen is better on SK's who solo a lot, because they do not have Torpor.

I noticed you are singling out 15/tick. I’m talking about the 42/tick you get from racial/fungi/regrowth. This is 14% of torpor for doing absolutely nothing, lol. And the best part is it stacks, so if you do cast torpor, you’re now getting 342/tick instead of 300. This is so significant that the fact you discredit this simply shows your inefficiencies and lack of understanding.

If you don’t think 42/tick of hp is a big deal, then you’re simply just being a troll. But for now, you’re just an inefficient shaman choosing to ignore passive regen for no apparent reason.

[Crede]

thank god someone has actually pointed this out. I've never understood why people act like regen on shaman is useless at 60 because it has less value when torpor is active, completely discounting the fact that torporing yourself has a non trivial opportunity cost. the way people talk here make it sound like torpor is just a passive 300hp regen effect that costs 0 mana and has 0 drawback to it.

Exactly! It’s because of people like DSM who just keep spreading bad advice. He will sit here and say 20 int iis useful but regen isn’t, lol.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

thank god someone has actually pointed this out. I've never understood why people act like regen on shaman is useless at 60 because it has less value when torpor is active, completely discounting the fact that torporing yourself has a non trivial opportunity cost. the way people talk here make it sound like torpor is just a passive 300hp regen effect that costs 0 mana and has 0 drawback to it.

Plenty of other Torpor Shamans agree with me if you simply look at their gear choices and race choices.

Why do they get Vindi BP and use it instead of Fungi Tunic? Because the 13 regen they are losing isn't noticeable enough to care about with Torpor.

Why do they pick Barbarian for fashion? Because the 8 regen they are losing isn't noticeable with Torpor.

Everybody would be Troll Shamans if it made enough of an impact to be noticeable.

Basic logic seems to be lost on people because they assume advantages are always going to actually give you a meaningful improvement.

Do not assume people are incorrect simply because other trolls say so.

He will sit here and say 20 int iis useful but regen isn’t, lol.

I never said this. Your problem is you literally make stuff up and then assume its true. Why should anyone believe an obviously delusional person like yourself?

[Lune]

thank god someone has actually pointed this out. I've never understood why people act like regen on shaman is useless at 60 because it has less value when torpor is active, completely discounting the fact that torporing yourself has a non trivial opportunity cost. the way people talk here make it sound like torpor is just a passive 300hp regen effect that costs 0 mana and has 0 drawback to it.

As a 60 shaman actively playing you should never be at 100% HP except maybe when torpor is active and you can't keep up, through canni with GCD resets. Torpor will not be active 100% of the time. Constant regen is extremely powerful even with torpor for this reason; nevermind less mana spent on torpor. DSM should not be saying shit like this and writing shaman guides.... not benefiting from regen is a him problem.

I get that not everybody wants to play EQ with high APM, great. But in a discussion about maximizing your character it makes him look like a fool.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

As a 60 shaman actively playing you should never be at 100% HP except maybe when torpor is active and you can't keep up, through canni with GCD resets. Torpor will not be active 100% of the time. Constant regen is extremely powerful even with torpor for this reason; nevermind less mana spent on torpor. DSM should not be saying shit like this and writing shaman guides.... not benefiting from regen is a him problem.

I get that not everybody wants to play EQ with high APM, great. But in a discussion about maximizing your character it makes him look like a fool.

Just read my shaman guide, you will see why you are so incorrect here. Basic math proves you wrong, but you never care about evidence.

You will be at 100% HP/Mana out of combat as a good Shaman. Torpor gets you there in 3 minutes or less. In combat, fights never last long enough to give you a significant advantage from a bit of regen.

[Crede]

As a 60 shaman actively playing you should never be at 100% HP except maybe when torpor is active and you can't keep up, through canni with GCD resets. Torpor will not be active 100% of the time. Constant regen is extremely powerful even with torpor for this reason; nevermind less mana spent on torpor. DSM should not be saying shit like this and writing shaman guides.... not benefiting from regen is a him problem.

I get that not everybody wants to play EQ with high APM, great. But in a discussion about maximizing your character it makes him look like a fool.

I agree with this. DSM is basically “ignore any Form of regen and roll ogre” and has been trying to spread this for years. People should know the value of passive regen that perfectly complements torpor.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I agree with this. DSM is basically “ignore any Form of regen and roll ogre” and has been trying to spread this for years. People should know the value of passive regen that perfectly complements torpor.

Again, when you look at level 60 Shamans, they agree with me.

Vindi BP being best in slot instead of Fungi is all the proof you need. Just inspect some level 60 Shamans next time you are in game.

Nobody cares that two known trolls agree with each other lol. You are both wrong, and care more about trolling than finding the truth.

As I have stated before and in my guide, Regen is obviously much more important before Torpor, when you don't have the option of getting +300 regen per tick.

[Crede]

I see you already got in a debate with people on this.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401554&page=6

The consensus was a toss up basically vindi bp when you need the resists otherwise fungi. This wasn’t even factoring in the additional 23 from regrowth/racial. You’re literally the only Person who thinks 42/tick is useless when you have torpor.

Like Lune said, not liking regen is a you problem. You can keep spreading lies but we will continue to defend the truth. A good shaman should be taking advantage of regen at every chance they get.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I see you already got in a debate with people on this.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401554&page=6

The consensus was a toss up basically vindi bp when you need the resists otherwise fungi. This wasn’t even factoring in the additional 23 from regrowth/racial. You’re literally the only Person who thinks 42/tick is useless when you have torpor.

Like Lune said, not liking regen is a you problem. You can keep spreading lies but we will continue to defend the truth.

You can keep ignoring all the Shamans who wear Vindi BP over Fungi and don't swap to Fungi. You can keep lying and say that nobody agrees with me.

Why are you making up lies and saying I dislike Regen lol? I would love to see where you think I said that. Reading comprehension is an issue of yours it seems.

This doesn't make you correct. You are sticking your head in the sand and making up lies because you are a troll.

Basic math agrees with me too. You can read my Shaman guide and watch my videos to see actual evidence that supports my position. The playerbase agrees with me when you look at their gear choices. You are simply spreading false information because you want to troll me.

Please stop. You are causing confusion out of childish spite.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Guys you don't understand I cut my leg off and I can very easily walk around and live a perfectly normal life with one leg. All you trolls who keep saying 2 legs are superior don't know what you're talking about. I found someone who also only has one leg (but the opposite leg as me) and we split the cost of a pair of shoes. Everyone should be cutting a leg off. The data on this is clear, it's not even close.

Thank you for continuing to show you are a troll. A bad one too, considering how poor your analogy is lol. Why do you think making a fool of yourself is helping your position?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 - Here is a video of me soloing Ionat. I am using Fungi Staff here, because I can. I have no problem doing this fight with or without Regrowth. I am wearing Vindi BP instead of Fungi Tunic.

I was taking damage for 21 minutes. With Fungi Tunic (+13 since I am using Vindi BP which has +2) + Troll Regen (8) I would have gained an extra 4400 HP (3-4 Torpors depending on server tick) during the fight. Please show me where the 3-4 Torpors would have helped in this fight. If you can't show it, then you are only using the extra regen to save 2 minutes on recovery time. If I did choose to put on Fungi Tunic, a Troll would only have 1 extra Torpor over myself, which is saving 30 seconds of recovery time. 2 minutes of recovery time isn't going to help when you have 30+ minutes of waiting for a repop when camping a named mob. You will have recovered your resources anyway.

Mathematically I am correct that Regeneration is providing very little benefit when you have Torpor, even when looking at a fight on the far end of the spectrum when it comes to time required. The shorter a fight lasts, the less benefit you are getting from Regeneration. This is because a good Torpor Shaman will always recover their HP/Mana after a fight. When Torpor takes 3 minutes or less to get you from low HP/Mana back to full https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc , why wouldn't you do that? You are lowering your risk of death by not running around with half health and mana.

You never actually bring any evidence to back up your position, so I won't hold my breath that you will do anything other than continue to provide insults that just make you look silly. Honestly you are ruining your credibility yourself with terrible analogies like that. You should think a little harder at least before trying to post.

[Lune]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8

You are clicking your spells and pet commands. You could have finished or nearly finished malo before the dragon got to you if you reset your cooldown. You are inconsistently resetting cooldowns and when you do it is usually slow as molasses. I could get in twice as many canni's as you do in a unit of time (no wonder you don't perceive a strong impact from regen). You know you don't have to right click your epic, right, you can bind it to a hotkey and use that? You were rarely at 100% HP during this fight and are arguing that regen is pointless. It would have immensely benefited you over the entire 21 minute fight. Less time spent managing your sustain means more JBB use and a faster kill. Fact of the matter is, the mob you are killing is fairly foolproof for your gear. An iksar could have done it.

I'd love to watch you try to handle a room full of casters with your boomer reflexes.

You are not a particularly skilled player, especially when it comes to squeezing more canni's between torpors by using faster GCD resets (not to mention near complete absence of logic and bad decision-making on big picture stuff). The prognosis does not look good. I recommend chemo and being a buffbot.

It's fine in Everquest to not min/max or do everything perfectly, but you are literally in a discussion about pushing the margins of your character when you have bad fundamentals. You would see orders of magnitude more benefit to your play by cycling canni's faster than any of these considerations you are talking about such as race, regen, other gear.

[Crede]

Thank you for continuing to show you are a troll. A bad one too, considering how poor your analogy is lol. Why do you think making a fool of yourself is helping your position?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 - Here is a video of me soloing Ionat. I am using Fungi Staff here, because I can. I have no problem doing this fight with or without Regrowth. I am wearing Vindi BP instead of Fungi Tunic.

I was taking damage for 21 minutes. With Fungi Tunic (+13 since I am using Vindi BP which has +2) + Troll Regen (8) I would have gained an extra 4400 HP (3-4 Torpors depending on server tick) during the fight. Please show me where the 3-4 Torpors would have helped in this fight. If you can't show it, then you are only using the extra regen to save 2 minutes on recovery time. If I did choose to put on Fungi Tunic, a Troll would only have 1 extra Torpor over myself, which is saving 30 seconds of recovery time. 2 minutes of recovery time isn't going to help when you have 30+ minutes of waiting for a repop when camping a named mob. You will have recovered your resources anyway.

Mathematically I am correct that Regeneration is providing very little benefit when you have Torpor, even when looking at a fight on the far end of the spectrum when it comes to time required. The shorter a fight lasts, the less benefit you are getting from Regeneration. This is because a good Torpor Shaman will always recover their HP/Mana after a fight. When Torpor takes 3 minutes or less to get you from low HP/Mana back to full https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjZxMlJSCDc , why wouldn't you do that? You are lowering your risk of death by not running around with half health and mana.

You never actually bring any evidence to back up your position, so I won't hold my breath that you will do anything other than continue to provide insults that just make you look silly. Honestly you are ruining your credibility yourself with terrible analogies like that. You should think a little harder at least before trying to post.

You can’t claim to “not often use regrowth” but yet provide examples using regrowth lol. These are reasons why you have zero credibility left on these forums. You literally just cherry pick your arguments.

You would gain 7560 hp in a 21 min fight on a troll using fungi/regrowth vs an ogre vindi bp shaman not using fungi or regrowth.

This is significant, people should know this. Please stop littering these forums with lies and your hypocrisy, we’re tired of it.

[Lune]

probably a keyboard turner too, yikes!

Yea turning with mouse when autorunning at beginning only, otherwise with keyboard. No strafing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol it is amazing that you guys are this bad at trolling.

If you want to claim I am a bad player, that simply proves that a better Shaman could have done the fight faster. This further reduces how much Regen gives you, strengthening my point.

Please keep making yourselves look like absolute fools in every way possible.

I can claim I don't use Regrowth that often, because it is true. I know you don't care about truth though.


You would gain 7560 hp in a 21 min fight on a troll using fungi/regrowth vs an ogre vindi bp shaman not using fungi or regrowth.

Can you show where in the fight i posted this would have helped? You haven't answered the question.

[Lune]

"I'm doing a trivial fight therefore whatever value I choose to disagree with is superfluous"

An iksar could do this fight, so why be an ogre or troll? If regen doesn't matter, none of this matters. The discussion is character power, not the binary of whether or not you're able to kill a trivial dragon. Regen would have allowed you to kill the dragon faster and more safely. Not even casting it on yourself is bad and you missed out on a lot of hp.

And yea I'm not going to argue with you. I've given you some criticism to dramatically improve your play, take it or leave it.

Guys you don't understand I cut my leg off and I can very easily walk around and live a perfectly normal life with one leg. All you trolls who keep saying 2 legs are superior don't know what you're talking about. I found someone who also only has one leg (but the opposite leg as me) and we split the cost of a pair of shoes. Everyone should be cutting a leg off. The data on this is clear, it's not even close.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

"I'm doing a trivial fight therefore whatever value I choose to disagree with is superfluous"

An iksar could do this fight, so why be an ogre or troll? If regen doesn't matter, none of this matters. The discussion is character power, not the binary of whether or not you're able to kill a trivial dragon. Regen would have allowed you to kill the dragon faster and more safely. Not even casting it on yourself is bad and you missed out on a lot of hp.

Except you cant prove any of this, even when i provide the evidence for you. Where in the fight would the extra regen have helped?

[Lune]

DSM cutting his grass with scissors.

"You know there are lawnmo--"

PROVE IT

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM cutting his grass with scissors.

"You know there are lawnmo--"

PROVE IT

Thanks for showing you cannot provide proof for your claims, even when I do everything for you.

For other people reading this thread, ignore posters who resort to this kind of behavior.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you for showing incontrovertible proof that you're a bad shaman. This poor play very clearly pervades the way you play each and every class. Thereby rendering any advice you have for anyone moot and immediately repudiated.

Again, if I am a bad Shaman, that simply proves you are getting less Regeneration per fight, which strengthens my point. I am still waiting on you to show me where the regeneration would have helped during that fight. You could also show us how a "good Shaman" plays. I know you won't though, because you are a coward and hide behind fallacies and insults.

Nothing you have done so far proves anything other than you are a bad troll, who cannot even troll correctly, because your trolling strengthens my point.

Insulting people is not actually a method for doing anything other than showing you are an asshole.


This is significant, people should know this. Please stop littering these forums with lies and your hypocrisy, we’re tired of it.

The only thing people are tired of is your constant desire to flood these forums with trolling and bad information. You keep ruining your credibility further by posting things that are blatant lies that are easy to disprove. You don't look cool simply because a few posters like yourself, Troxx, Lune, etc., agree with each other. Agreement has nothing to do with factual information.

[Ripqozko]

Again, if I am a bad Shaman, that simply proves you are getting less Regeneration per fight, which strengthens my point. I am still waiting on you to show me where the regeneration would have helped during that fight. You could also show us how a "good Shaman" plays. I know you won't though, because you are a coward and hide behind fallacies and insults.

Nothing you have done so far proves anything other than you are a bad troll, who cannot even troll correctly, because your trolling strengthens my point.

Insulting people is not actually a method for doing anything other than showing you are an asshole.



The only thing people are tired of is your constant desire to flood these forums with trolling and bad information. You keep ruining your credibility further by posting things that are blatant lies that are easy to disprove. You don't look cool simply because a few posters like yourself, Troxx, Lune, etc., agree with each other. Agreement has nothing to do with factual information.

It's not me it's everyone else that's the problem

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's not me it's everyone else that's the problem

Sometimes that is the case, yes. Yourself, Troxx, Lune, Toxigen, and Crede are all well established trolls at this point. It is easy to see with your post history.

It is amazing you think that a bunch of trolls agreeing with each other and invoking an argumentum ad populum fallacy makes you look cool on an elf forum, or correct.

I provided an entire 21 minute Shaman fight, where Regen is providing more for you than the vast majority of Shaman fights.

You still can't show where the Regen would have helped. Why do you think anybody cares about your baseless opinions that you cannot even spend 5 minutes on looking at a video provided by someone else?

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3634510&postcount=367 Remember when you admitted to trolling a lot?

[Snaggles]

I've played a Torpor Shaman for years, and was able to do everything without Fungi Tunic and Regrowth. This is a fact, and is backed up by basic math.

This is literally the same thing we told you for years about how lacking FSI hadn’t ever affected our experience negatively, and you firmly stated just because it hasn’t doesn’t mean it’s and disadvantage.

Arguably outside soloing dragons more mana/second is more helpful than less.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is literally the same thing we told you for years about how lacking FSI hadn’t ever affected our experience negatively, and you firmly stated just because it hasn’t doesn’t mean it’s and disadvantage.

Arguably outside soloing dragons more mana/second is more helpful than less.

You haven't read what I have been saying for years, even though it has been in my signature. FSI is the best racial benefit for a Shaman, but you do not need it to succeed. Where did you see me say otherwise? Just because something is the best in a set, it doesn't mean anything in the set is going to give you a massive benefit.

From the preface of my guide I wrote almost 3 years ago:

"Due to the high power of the Shaman class, no Racial Bonus is required to best any content. The idea is to determine which Racial Bonuses give you the most edge, with the understanding it won't have a huge impact overall."

What is unclear here?

[Snaggles]

You haven't read what I have been saying for years, even though it has been in my signature. FSI is the best racial benefit, even though you do not need it. Where did you see me say otherwise? Just because something is the best in a set, it doesn't mean anything in the set is going to give you a massive benefit.

From the preface of my guide I wrote almost 3 years ago:

"The idea is to determine which Racial Bonuses give you the most edge, with the understanding it won't have a huge impact overall."

What is unclear here?

I still don’t understand why you made a troll sk instead of an ogre. Better combat stats, fsi, less xp penalty. Outside BoTB SK tournaments jousting for 10 mins regen is a pretty weak stat. Pallies get a 8/3 hp to mana regen that stacks with everything and I never mem that rubbish.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I still don’t understand why you made a troll sk instead of an ogre. Better combat stats, fsi, less xp penalty. Outside BoTB SK tournaments jousting for 10 mins regen is a pretty weak stat. Pallies get a 8/3 hp to mana regen that stacks with everything and I never mem that rubbish.

Can you admit that you were reading my posts incorrectly before I answer?

[Snaggles]

Can you admit that you were reading my posts incorrectly before I answer?

In my defense you post a lot of stuff. The lack of consistency looks like bias.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In my defense you post a lot of stuff. The lack of consistency looks like bias.

You've shown you cannot even read the guide I've had in my signature for years. It is possible you are completely wrong in terms of thinking I am inconsistent at all. Do you have any evidence of that claim?

If not, please stop posting misinformation about what you think I've said.

[Duik]

Jesus Tittie Fucking Christ. Is this still a thing?

[Snaggles]

You've shown you cannot even read the guide I've had in my signature for years. It is possible you are completely wrong in terms of thinking I am inconsistent at all. Do you have any evidence of that claim?

If not, please stop posting misinformation about what you think I've said.

Sorry I don’t care about your guide. I browsed it a long time ago and didn’t glean much from it besides how much you like ogres and FSI.

Since you are posturing instead of engaging in discourse I’ll assume a less annoyed DSM would say SK’s have a Hp recovery issue and regen is helpful. Also that bash interrupts are less likely to happen since tank defense skills over a shaman. This might pass the squint test but my argument (to my alter ego I guess) is the average ogre is also able to cap str, stam, and put more points into intel than a troll. Trolls have better dex and agil but overall the community agrees it’s not as important as the big 3.

I’m not trying to troll. I’m actually keeping this thread on the tracks with all the torp shaman blather…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sorry I don’t care about your guide...

I’m not trying to troll. I’m actually keeping this thread on the tracks with all the torp shaman blather…

You say you aren't trying to troll, but you use obvious lies about what I've said to try and undermine my credibility.

For someone who doesn't want to troll, you are doing a great job:) Please admit you were wrong, and I will answer your questions.

[Lune]

Regarding DSM I think I've been through all five stages, denial anger bargaining etc and have reached acceptance. I just feel bad for the guy. Most posters, even if we don't see eye to eye... I grow as a player by engaging with them, and learning from them. For example I didn't even think about dex for that Greenmist iksar SK in the other thread. If DSM could learn from other people he could probably enjoy the game more and be better at it. And the whole community would benefit, because the guy seems to have an impulse to help.

Someone should have taught this guy theory of mind (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind) and that you need to be able to acknowledge the limitations of your own understanding in order to grow.

It has been proposed that deficits in theory of mind can occur in people with autism,[5] anorexia nervosa,[6] schizophrenia, dysphoria, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder,[7] cocaine addiction,[8] and brain damage caused by alcohol's neurotoxicity.[9][10]

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Regarding DSM I think I've been through all five stages, denial anger bargaining etc and have reached acceptance. I just feel bad for the guy. Most posters, even if we don't see eye to eye... I grow as a player by engaging with them, and learning from them. For example I didn't even think about dex for that Greenmist iksar SK in the other thread. If DSM could learn from other people he could probably enjoy the game more and be better at it. And the whole community would benefit, because the guy seems to have an impulse to help.

Someone should have taught this guy theory of mind and that you need to be able to acknowledge the limitations of your own understanding in order to grow.

Still waiting on you to show where the regen would help in the video I provided. It should be easy to show if it is so obvious. You waste a lot of time on trolling lol.

[Duik]

Still waiting on you to show where the regen would help in the video I provided. It should be easy to show if it is so obvious. You waste a lot of time on trolling lol.

Insert foot tapping, watch pointing Karen gif here.

Also, you waste alot of time being trolled.

[Snaggles]

I’ve never built a character around statistical superiority. I play classes that are fun but disadvantaged. If you ask me why I have a troll shaman, an erudite paladin, or a ranger (at all) I can say with honesty “I’m biased; it’s fun and I haven’t noticed a disadvantage yet”.

When your angle is “superiority > all and I’m never wrong” you better bring the receipts. You shouldn’t roll your eyes at people and ignore their critique as ignorant.

I’ve played this game for over 20 years, I’m a casual on p99 with 6 level 60’s and a bunch more I’ve just not cared to push there. Some others here have leveled and geared WAY more than me; I welcome their feedback. This isn’t some weird big brother program where you write a guide and expect people to study it before they engage with you. Guides are supposed to be a generous sharing of information. Manifestos are a declaration of the world as you see it.

You do, you. Trolling or genuine feedback your sk’s magelo would be better oriented as an ogre. More mana, more attack, capping stam. It’s ok to like a troll or enjoy regen for worse stats. Fashionquest is a personal thing. Stats and facts aren’t so again, if your currency is dealing in absolutes welcome to a fight at every corner. Once in a while admitting you might be wrong would also help. Unless you never think you have been wrong, if so that’s an issue.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’ve never built a character around statistical superiority. I play classes that are fun but disadvantaged. If you ask me why I have a troll shaman, an erudite paladin, or a ranger (at all) I can say with honesty “I’m biased; it’s fun and I haven’t noticed a disadvantage yet”.

When your angle is “superiority > all and I’m never wrong” you better bring the receipts. You shouldn’t roll your eyes at people and ignore their critique as ignorant.

I’ve played this game for over 20 years, I’m a casual on p99 with 6 level 60’s and a bunch more I’ve just not cared to push there. Some others here have leveled and geared WAY more than me; I welcome their feedback. This isn’t some weird big brother program where you write a guide and expect people to study it before they engage with you. Guides are supposed to be a generous sharing of information. Manifestos are a declaration of the world as you see it.

You do, you. Trolling or genuine feedback your sk’s magelo would be better oriented as an ogre. More mana, more attack, capping stam. It’s ok to like a troll or enjoy regen for worse stats. Fashionquest is a personal thing. Stats and facts aren’t so again, if your currency is dealing in absolutes welcome to a fight at every corner. Once in a while admitting you might be wrong would also help. Unless you never think you have been wrong, if so that’s an issue.

You do not have to build a character around statistical superiority. I have never said otherwise.

My angle has never been “superiority > all and I’m never wrong”. Yet another thing you have misread for years. My angle is "Give people the objective facts and let them decide for themselves. There is nothing wrong with picking a suboptimal choice. There is nothing wrong with being a min/maxer. Let everybody be happy by giving them the correct information."

I have provided plenty of receipts (evidence) for my claims. Simply dismissing everything out of hand as your method for saying I am incorrect is not a valid method of providing counter-evidence.

The core problem seems to be you think that providing objective facts is some kind of eye rolling, arrogance, or forcing people to think a certain way. I am not saying I am right because I am arrogant. I am saying I am right because I have actually done the research and provided evidence. Evidence you have yet to refute. I will be happy to admit I am wrong if you can do better research and provide better evidence. I have done so many times in the past.

I also do not expect everyone to read my guide. I am simply pointing out you are lying about what I've been saying. You've shown that you didn't even read the first few paragraphs of the guide I have had in my signature for years. This shows you aren't reading what I have been posting very closely or thoroughly, so you shouldn't be making baseless claims about my other posts.

For SK's Trolls are going to be the best racial choice if you solo most of the time. Ogres are going to be better if you group most of the time, as regeneration provides a lot less utility in a group with a healer. FSI will probably provide more benefit in that scenario. That has always been my position, if you actually read what I've been saying. I have a different stance on FSI/Regen for Shamans and SK's, because they are different classes. Torpor changes the equation because it is such a large boost to Regeneration.

[Duik]

Oof.

[Tann]

Jesus Tittie Fucking Christ. Is this still a thing?

https://imgur.com/c7lmNmJ.gif

[Lowako]

Except you cant prove any of this, even when i provide the evidence for you. Where in the fight would the extra regen have helped?

7500 hp is 5 or 6 torpors worth of healing depending on how hard server tics own you, for the sake of simplicity lets say 5.

5 torpors is 30 seconds spent casting (in practice its a little bit more b/c nobody gcd resets perfectly) and 1000 mana spent.

recovering 1000 mana from canni4 takes 12~ casts or another 30 seconds spent casting and 1776 damage taken. Another torpor cast to recover from this (it wont quite fully cover it, but i think the point being made becomes clear here) so another 6 seconds and 200 mana used on torpor. add another 3 canni4 casts to make this torpor cast mana neutral - another 7.5s spent casting and 440~ damage taken.

best case you're looking at 30 seconds spent casting torpor and being 1000 mana down.
we're looking at 1m14s~ extra spent on nothing but canni4 and torpor if you're trying to break mana neutral while also being about 700 hp down.
this also ignores the fact that it is not always easy to commit to the 6s cast OR the fact that sometimes being snared is bad for business.

theres a lot of things you can do with that extra time and mana depending on what the situation calls for - jbb/epic clicks, sending pox/bane, malosini, extra wiggle room against slow resists or unfortunate fizzles etc.

with this particular situation vs ionat? at the end of the day it doesnt really matter that much because its an easy target - realistically you could probably unequip half your gear and still kill it without trouble. in situations where you're fighting something harder it becomes easier to see the value in having extra time and mana to cast other spells and increase your margin of error against mistakes / bad rng.

regen is also just real nice in the situations where incoming damage is small and/or infrequent - for example it lets you sneak in more canni casts in the situations where you can't commit to a longer cast. typically this happens when you're trying to land a slow. oddly enough canni3 was really nice for this, the 1.25s cast was short enough that it you're able to fit it in situations where 1.) slow is on cd or you're holding for threat related reasons 2.) you either just finished casting a heal or you can spare a second before starting your next heal. Fungi regen alone is giving you an hp neutral canni 3 every 5 tics which is 7.6 FT worth of mana regen if my numbers aren't wrong. i'm using canni3 here because thats just what i remember using when i played on blue years back (canni4 either wasnt released or it was out and its initial form sucks, idr) - i'm fairly confident canni4 cast time is short enough to function in the same manner as a filler spell.

i did not realize the idea that hp regen is good and useful was so controversial, but here we are.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

i did not realize the idea that hp regen is good and useful was so controversial, but here we are.

Posters like Troxx, Toxigen, lune, etc., make things into a controversy by trying to troll. It is a well established pattern by now. They care about bloating topics, not finding truth. They like insulting people, denying evidence, and shutting down conversation.

Nobody is saying HP Regen is bad. I do not know where people keep reading this nonsensical idea. I am simply showing the mathematical reality that Torpor dwarfs worn/spell regen. Worn/spell regen loses a lot of value, because Torpor is just providing so much already.


with this particular situation vs ionat? at the end of the day it doesnt really matter that much because its an easy target - realistically you could probably unequip half your gear and still kill it without trouble. in situations where you're fighting something harder it becomes easier to see the value in having extra time and mana to cast other spells and increase your margin of error against mistakes / bad rng.


People keep saying Ionat is an "easy target", but haven't provided an example of a "hard target". Simply dismissing evidence because you assume something is "easy" is not a valid argument.

If you post a "hard target", I can make a video and share the results.

The point of the Ionat video is to show you an example of a fight that takes a long time. Regeneration gets better over time, so it should be a good example to make your case for Regeneration. A Hard 3 minute fight isn't making much use of Regen anyway. You are getting less than 1 Torpor in that scenario with Fungi Tunic + Fungi Staff. If you run out of mana to the point where you need one extra Torpor, you had bigger problems with the fight.

You still haven't shown where the regeneration would have helped https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 . Just take a look through the video and do the math as to what HP/Mana I would be at, and see if it would have helped at all. You can try to apply your other theories that way.

[bcbrown]

DSM cutting his grass with scissors.

"You know there are lawnmo--"

PROVE IT

I laughed

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I laughed

I am not sure why. Lune has provided nothing to back up his claims. His analogy doesn't even make sense if he cannot actually show me doing an example of this.

It is a shame people do not think evidence matters. You can just make claims and expect people to believe them without question.

The irony is I am showing him the lawnmower, and he thinks it isn't a lawnmower because he claims it is a pair of scissors. Nobody can convince him it is a lawnmower, even when you show him other lawnmowers. He will just keep claiming it is a pair of scissors in an attempt to "win".

[Gloomlord]

Thanks for showing you cannot provide proof for your claims, even when I do everything for you.

For other people reading this thread, ignore posters who resort to this kind of behavior.

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/441701048992155417/A74F95B4B21572CEBDC65E8083BF0F4513E7A95D/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false

[Jimjam]

Regarding DSM I think I've been through all five stages, denial anger bargaining etc and have reached acceptance. I just feel bad for the guy. Most posters, even if we don't see eye to eye... I grow as a player by engaging with them, and learning from them. For example I didn't even think about dex for that Greenmist iksar SK in the other thread. If DSM could learn from other people he could probably enjoy the game more and be better at it. And the whole community would benefit, because the guy seems to have an impulse to help.

Someone should have taught this guy theory of mind (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_mind) and that you need to be able to acknowledge the limitations of your own understanding in order to grow.

Something you may take away is using mouseclicks, while suboptimal in general gameplay, can be preferential in tutorial videos as it helps guide the viewer into where the forthcoming actions are and keep track of what is happening.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Something you may take away is using mouseclicks, while suboptimal in general gameplay, can be preferential in tutorial videos as it helps guide the viewer into where the forthcoming actions are and keep track of what is happening.

Thanks for not piling on. I appreciate it. You are correct that mouse movement can help in a tutorial video. The P99 UI does not show you which buttons you pressed when using hotkeys.

Lune isn't giving me advise because they care about improving my play. Lune simplys want to attack my video and discredit it. That way Lune can avoid the actual discussion. If Lune was being sincere, they would use my video to show where they think regeneration would have helped.

For someone who claims to practice theory of mind, Lune is doing anything but that. Lune is basically going with tribalism at this point. Agree with the group, regardless of the truth. That seems primitive and close minded to me.

For those wondering about my playstyle, I mix hotkeys and mouse. Why do I do it? I am not sure, it is a habit at this point. I just go with the flow and do whatever is most comfortable and least distracting at the time. I am not trying to claim I am the best player in the game, and I am not asking for playstyle advise.

My current actions per minute are more than fine to do any fight. I have yet to run into issues. Nobody has shown what a "good shaman" looks like either. It is easy to criticize someone else's playstyle when we can't even see how they play.

[Snaggles]

So glad we are dialing in that SK race choice. After the last two threads the class needs a new PR team. Paladin stock is rising at record speeds.

[Lune]

Something you may take away is using mouseclicks, while suboptimal in general gameplay, can be preferential in tutorial videos as it helps guide the viewer into where the forthcoming actions are and keep track of what is happening.

True

[Crede]

The playerbase agrees with me when you look at their gear choices. You are simply spreading false information because you want to troll .

The only thing people are tired of is your constant desire to flood these forums with trolling and bad information. You keep ruining your credibility further by posting things that are blatant lies that are easy to disprove. You don't look cool simply because a few posters like yourself, Troxx, Lune, etc., agree with each other. Agreement has nothing to do with factual information.

Nice try. You can’t claim ad populum while simultaneously accusing others of doing the same. Your posts clearly illustrate your hypocrisy.

There’s simply no data that suggest vindi bp is superior to fungi in all situations or that you need one over the other to kill a particular mob. All we can do is present the facts. Your weird obsession of intentionally neglecting any form of passive regeneration is not something that needs to apply to everyone just because you don’t find the value in it. 42 hp/tick in a 3 hour grind session is over 75,000 hp that doesn’t require any mana, time, or effort. This is significant, people should know the facts. Whether or not it was required to succeed doesn’t change the fact that it’s a benefit.

Please stop with the lies, fallacies, and hypocrisy. It doesn’t help anyone here but makes you look like a troll.

[Snaggles]

Basically every 5 minutes of fungi regen is a free focus. Two focus’ if you have regrowth of some type on (hence a fungi staff being worth considering). That’s just an occasional canni to make sure you aren’t full health.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nice try. You can’t claim ad populum while simultaneously accusing others of doing the same. Your posts clearly illustrate your hypocrisy. Show me where I was hypocritical please.

There’s simply no data that suggest vindi bp is superior to fungi in all situations or that you need one over the other to kill a particular mob. All we can do is present the facts. Your weird obsession of intentionally neglecting any form of passive regeneration is not something that needs to apply to everyone just because you don’t find the value in it. 42 hp/tick in a 3 hour grind session is over 75,000 hp that doesn’t require any mana, time, or effort. This is significant, people should know the facts. Whether or not it was required to succeed doesn’t change the fact that it’s a benefit.

Please stop with the lies, fallacies, and hypocrisy. It doesn’t help anyone here but makes you look like a troll.

Lol it is a little late at this point to try and claim I am the troll, based on your last few posts. Show me where I was hypocritical please.

I am tellng you to go inspect some level 60 Torpor Shamans. They aren't wearing Fungi. You can see it on both servers. Their gear choice shows they understand what I am saying. If you can come back and show a bunch of 60 Torpor Shamans wearing Fungis, I'll happily admit I am wrong.

Unlike yourself, when I say the playerbase agrees with me, this is based on an experiment you can do youself!

A good Torpor Shaman is always at full HP/MP. You can get back to full HP/MP in 3 minutes or less. You are not getting anywhere near 75k HP, because you aren't playing with HP under 100% except when you are fighting.

A level 60 Torpor Shaman isn't constantly killng for XP, they are camping named mobs. This means you have a lot more downtime anyway at full HP/MP.

Please stop telling people Torpor Shamans need extra worn regen with Torpor. They don't. It never hurts of course, but Shamans play differently once they get Torpor. You are thinking in terms of melee classes that don't have Torpor. Worn Regen/Spell Regen is much better in that scenario.

[Snaggles]

Two things can be true. Most raid shams can have and wear something that’s also not beneficial in all circumstances.

1. Situational benefit
2. Vanity/fashion - the fungi looks stupid on most races.
3. Alternative that frees up a piece of BiS alt gear

If players were robots (or scripting cheaters) and you could set the canni/torp cycle to never end sure, the fungi would only be helpful while running from point A to point B. People aren’t robots though. Sometimes you will canni down a bit and go get a beer. Regen is AFK hps while you med.

Also even in the theoretical robot EQ play example an efficient torp cycle just has to heal every tick for 300. Like the sk “big mana pool” you have to hit the fumes of the tank to see the issue. Having more hps will help avoiding blood aggro during slow attempts and other things but strictly as a mana/hp generation model a fungi is doing something while you are torp dancing. Maybe not as much but every torp tick is an extra 15 hps. Every cani cast you get back about 15. It’s HP mitigation whether you are taking damage from a npc or doing it to yourself.

To turn it back on Sk’s a fungi has its purposes even though most raiders will wear “better”. If I had to guess the fungi is in their bag, or on their alt. If like me and it’s on an alt likely constantly wishing it wasn’t…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Two things can be true. Most raid shams can have and wear something that’s also not beneficial in all circumstances.

1. Situational benefit
2. Vanity/fashion - the fungi looks stupid on most races.
3. Alternative that frees up a piece of BiS alt gear

If players were robots (or scripting cheaters) and you could set the canni/torp cycle to never end sure, the fungi would only be helpful while running from point A to point B. People aren’t robots though. Sometimes you will canni down a bit and go get a beer. Regen is AFK hps while you med.

Also even in the theoretical robot EQ play example an efficient torp cycle just has to heal every tick for 300. Like the sk “big mana pool” you have to hit the fumes of the tank to see the issue. Having more hps will help avoiding blood aggro during slow attempts and other things but strictly as a mana/hp generation model a fungi is doing something while you are torp dancing. Maybe not as much but every torp tick is an extra 15 hps. Every cani cast you get back about 15. It’s HP mitigation whether you are taking damage from a npc or doing it to yourself.

To turn it back on Sk’s a fungi has its purposes even though most raiders will wear “better”. If I had to guess the fungi is in their bag, or on their alt. If like me and it’s on an alt likely constantly wishing it wasn’t…

The argument for extra HP regen is efficiency. To be an efficient Torpor Shaman, you need to use Torpor. If your argument for worn regen is you are too lazy to cast Torpor, that is your efficiency problem. There is nothing wrong with being inefficient. But arguing for worn regen based on efficiency when you are already being highly inefficient is not logical. The solution is to use Torpor, not buy a Fungi.

For SKs Fungi is awesome. For characters without Torpor, Fungi is a huge improvement to your regeneration relatively speaking. With Torpor, Fungi is only a 5% improvement when you are already mitigating damage extremely well in the vast majority of fights. Vindi BP is also saving you HP with the extra AC and resists.