SK Race Choice

[Snaggles]

No, my argument is there are situations you arent clicking a few buttons non-stop. Anytime you run from point A to Point B without 100% hps and mana a fungi is better, as is being a troll.

Like most server lies like "all stats will cap in Velious so it doesnt matter" the classic "shaman dont need a fungi with torp" should come with some fine print. You don't need anything in this stupid game but it doesnt mean situationally some things wont come in handy. A torp sham can solo chardok stuff and raid in banded armor, it doesnt mean people shouldnt try to get better gear if they can.

Every tick a fungi heals 15hps. Every tick torp is active you gain 300hps. Unless you are unable to canni at full efficiency because you barely have 1500hps a fungi is helpful. Before you construct a straw man with my name on it, I admit having more mana and hps is always helpful but we are isolating the argument of regen and why it's a good thing. This is some basic math here...

Edit: Vindi bp for a tanking/dps Sk is pretty much BiS. For many reasons. Fungi is still good and situationally BiS. I feel like I have to add that in since we have lost the forest for the trees yet again.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

No, my argument is there are situations you arent clicking a few buttons non-stop. Anytime you run from point A to Point B without 100% hps and mana a fungi is better, as is being a troll.

Like most server lies like "all stats will cap in Velious so it doesnt matter" the classic "shaman dont need a fungi with torp" should come with some fine print. You don't need anything in this stupid game but it doesnt mean situationally some things wont come in handy. A torp sham can solo chardok stuff and raid in banded armor, it doesnt mean people shouldnt try to get better gear if they can.

Every tick a fungi heals 15hps. Every tick torp is active you gain 300hps. Unless you are unable to canni at full efficiency because you barely have 1500hps a fungi is helpful. Before you construct a straw man with my name on it, I admit having more mana and hps is always helpful but we are isolating the argument of regen and why it's a good thing. This is some basic math here...

Running from point A to point B is more likely to get you killed when you are at 50% HP/MP. There is no reason to not spend a minute before you start running by Torporing back up. It's just so quick.

I am not saying you can't buy a Fungi for that purpose if that is how you like to play, but it has nothing to do with efficiency, which is what is being argued.

[Snaggles]

Running from point A to point B is more likely to get you killed when you are at 50% HP/MP. There is no reason to not spend a minute before you start running by Torporing back up. It's just so quick.

I am not saying you can't buy a Fungi for that purpose if that is how you like to play, but it has nothing to do with efficiency, which is what is being argued.

And there is the strawman.

No, I mean if you are running with 99% health you are less efficient. Even if your last torp dance gets you to FM and like 95% health if you dont do another cycle you are less efficient. Some might say "lazy".

LOL yea, I always run places with half health and half hps. No root on the bar either. No sow. Usually encumbered. Thanks for the protip on that one, I never thought this could be dangerous. :eek:

[DeathsSilkyMist]

And there is the strawman.

No, I mean if you are running with 99% health you are less efficient. Even if your last torp dance gets you to FM and like 95% health if you dont do another cycle you are less efficient. Some might say "lazy".

LOL yea, I always run places with half health and half hps. No root on the bar either. No sow. Usually encumbered. Thanks for the protip on that one, I never thought this could be dangerous. :eek:

I didn't create a strawman.

Just look at your last two posts. You didn't specify what HP/MP numbers you would be running with. Am I supposed to read your mind as to what you are talking about?

I used 50% HP/MP as a simple example, because even at 50% HP/MP it will only take you a minute to a minute and a half to get back to safe levels.

Once you are at 95% HP, the extra Regen isn't going to matter one way or the other. You can pop on a Regrowth if you care, or just get to your destination and start fighting at 95%. If you can't do a fight at 95% HP, don't do the fight.

[Jimjam]

I like to wear vindi BPs cos they are super easy to acquire and as they are well stated raid loot I can tell myself they are better than a fungi.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I like to wear vindi BPs cos they are super easy to acquire and as they are well stated raid loot I can tell myself they are better than a fungi.

If you wear a Vindi BP instead of a Fungi, you are showing that you don't mind losing 13 Regen.

[Jimjam]

Or I don’t want the hustle/hassle of liquidising and consolidating asset to visit Ec and get a fungi (camping one isn’t terribly reliable in my experience).

Its definitely a cope for not having a fungi.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Or I don’t want the hustle/hassle of liquidising and consolidating asset to visit Ec and get a fungi (camping one isn’t terribly reliable in my experience).

Its definitely a cope for not having a fungi.

You are still playing without a fungi and doing fine. If you thought the fungi would help significantly you would get one. You agree with me too by your actions.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Lol all you do is create straw men. You do it constantly. In fact I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone better at it.
^^ Collection of DSM posts on the p99 forums

More lies. You can see I wasn't strawmanning him. If you don't provide enough detail in your post, you cannot expect people to read your mind. I gave an example amount of HP and MP since he did not. I did not say that he said 50% HP/MP.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3636608&postcount=202

Exactly! It’s because of people like DSM who just keep spreading bad advice. He will sit here and say 20 int iis useful but regen isn’t, lol.

This on the otherhand IS a strawman. I never said those words, and Crede is explicitly making the claim that I did. You should go after him instead lol. Your bias is clearly showing.

[Jimjam]

You are still playing without a fungi and doing fine. You thought the fungi would help significantly you would get one. You agree with me too by your actions.

I’m not doing fine :o

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m not doing fine :o

Lol then get that fungi if you think it will help. So far your actions show you do not think it will help.

[Jimjam]

I’m gonna get those +attack gloves from mr ragefire

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I’m gonna get those +attack gloves from mr ragefire

Those are nice. Makes you look like you have basketballs for hands on a troll lol.

[Snaggles]

I’m gonna get those +attack gloves from mr ragefire

Don't bother. DSM has proved attack doesnt matter on a level 4 turtle hence it's not worth bothering with it. You should get coldain skin gloves, way more mana, end game stat.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Don't bother. DSM has proved attack doesnt matter on a level 4 turtle hence it's not worth bothering with it. You should get coldain skin gloves, way more mana, end game stat.

Why do you keep posting nonsense? It doesn't make you look good, and it is trivial to prove I never said that.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

https://i.imgur.com/U7MyMOZ.png

:confused:

Resorting to bad photoshopping now too? Thanks for continuing to show you are nothing but a troll. A liar too. Ruining your own credibility doesn't hurt me.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I dunno I thought it was a pretty decent photoshop considering I only used MS Paint.

It's impossible to hurt your credibility because you don't have any.

Hope this helps.

The only person hurting their credibility is yourself with nonsensical posts like this.

Thanks for showing people you are just a troll who is not worth listening to. This helped.

[Ripqozko]

The only person hurting their credibility is yourself with nonsensical posts like this.

Thanks for showing people you are just a troll who is not worth listening to. This helped.

imagine thinking credibility mattered on a 24 year old elf sim forum. hope that helped

[DeathsSilkyMist]

imagine thinking credibility mattered on a 24 year old elf sim forum. hope that helped

Why bother posting then? You just waste people's time by trolling and posting misinformation. You aren't even trolling in an entertaining manner.

[Ripqozko]

Why bother posting then? You just waste people's time by trolling and posting misinformation. You aren't even trolling in an entertaining manner.

i ask that about you every day

[DeathsSilkyMist]

i ask that about you every day

You still haven't answered my question. Your poor attempt at another troll is meaningless.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is literally what I think every time I see one of your posts.

I am not sure why. You aren't helping people by trolling. You just cause confusion and supply misinformation.

I will continue to help people when they ask questions. You can keep trolling if you wish, it just gives us more evidence that you are a troll that we can easily point to.

[Lune]

You aren't helping people by trolling.

He's helping me chuckle. I didn't catch the other post and thought he was emphasizing one of yours

[DeathsSilkyMist]

He's helping me chuckle. I didn't catch the other post and thought he was emphasizing one of yours

You still haven't shown where regen would have helped in that Ionat video btw:)

[Snaggles]

I dunno I thought it was a pretty decent photoshop considering I only used MS Paint.

It's impossible to hurt your credibility because you don't have any.

Hope this helps.

I forgot I said it and assumed it was real :D

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I forgot I said it and assumed it was real :D

Thanks for admitting you just make stuff up when you attempt to "quote" me, and then forget you made up the "quote" lol. You are really bad at this trolling stuff.

[Gloomlord]

Imagine being called a liar by someone totally bereft of integrity...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Imagine being called a liar by someone totally bereft of integrity...

Your post history is 350+ posts of insults and little else. I am not sure why you think you can judge who has integrity at all.

[Snaggles]

Thanks for admitting you just make stuff up when you attempt to "quote" me, and then forget you made up the "quote" lol. You are really bad at this trolling stuff.

I didn't direct quote you but this was the crux of the idiocy my quip came from.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3635462&postcount=513

You know jokes aren't literal accounts of history right? All of Steve Martin's King Tutt material wasnt based on his actual life.

[Gloomlord]

Why do you keep bringing up my post count like you think it makes a difference? Yes, you brought out the talkative side of myself in that thread when you made it clear how disingenuous you are. So what?

God, your comebacks are so pathetic...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I didn't direct quote you but this was the crux of the idiocy my quip came from.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3635462&postcount=513

You know jokes aren't literal accounts of history right? All of Steve Martin's King Tutt material wasnt based on his actual life.

When nobody can tell if you are being serious or joking, then it is a problem. You are making up lies, not providing humor. Nobody can see the smile on your face, or the hint of a laugh in your voice. Your response is text only.

Me providing evidence about how much benefit you will get from +20 STR via starting stats is not me saying you shouldn't get STR items or ATK items on a melee character lol. This is a very poor attempt at a gotcha.

STR is easy to get on melee classes. You do not need to spend your starting stats on a stat that can get +235 from buffs alone. That doesn't mean you shouldn't ask for the buffs that provide +235 STR. You'll get a nice DPS boost that way.

Why do you keep bringing up my post count like you think it makes a difference? Yes, you brought out the talkative side of myself in that thread when you made it clear how disingenuous you are. So what?

God, your comebacks are so pathetic...

You have proven you are just a troll who insults people, because the majority of your post count is trolling and insulting people. You have zero integrity because of this. You are in no position to judge others. You reap what you sow.

[Snaggles]

Ok real truth? Coldain gloves are technically better. I have ragefires, I only wear them when str capped and not taking hits. The stats on them suck for anything but warmbody dps. For that they are the best.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Ok real truth? Coldain gloves are technically better. I have ragefires, I only wear them when str capped and not taking hits. The stats on them suck for anything but warmbody dps. For that they are the best.

I agree that the stats on Ragefire gloves aren't the best. There are certainly better raw stat pieces. As you say, the Firefist is what you wear it for. You have a good chance of your STR being capped in a group/raid, so the raw ATK is providing some benefit past the STR cap.

[Gloomlord]

You have proven you are just a troll who insults people, because the majority of your post count is trolling and insulting people. You have zero integrity because of this. You are in no position to judge others. You reap what you sow.

"Trolling" and insulting you.

The only thing I'm "reaping" now is a pathetic child like you.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

"Trolling" and insulting you.

Thank you for admitting it. You can stop doing this and start building back your integrity at any time. It is at rock bottom currently.

[Jimjam]

Don't bother. DSM has proved attack doesnt matter on a level 4 turtle hence it's not worth bothering with it. You should get coldain skin gloves, way more mana, end game stat.

Lol. Good one! So attack and regen bad. I should delete the vindi bp, reroll erud and get a vp robe for int/mana?(!)

[Gloomlord]

Thank you for admitting it. You can stop doing this and start building back your integrity at any time. It is at rock bottom currently.

You might like to check again how I put "trolling" in quotation marks. Try and ponder why that might be the case.

I never denied insulting you because, well, you quite frankly deserve harsh criticism. Despite the numerous lies you conjure from your mouth, you know why we're all frustrated with you.

[Jimjam]

There is a difference between critical feedback and insult my good, yet gloomy, buddy :)

[Duik]

STEEEEEEEEEEL GOOOOOIIINGGG#!#!
OMFGROFLLOLOCAUSTICSODA.

[Gloomlord]

Telling someone that they lack integrity is critical feedback if the person, in question, needs a wakeup call.

You can't act all high and mighty, and barely disguising some arrogant and pathological desire to be the most clever person in the room, whilst denying clear logic and refusing to admit being wrong.

When you act like that, you no longer deserve amicable discussion. Don't know why I should be singled out here, considering other people have rightfully spoke harshly in his direction.

[Snaggles]

Lol. Good one! So attack and regen bad. I should delete the vindi bp, reroll erud and get a vp robe for int/mana?(!)

Coldain's were a joke but frankly they arent that bad.

Get RF gloves and put them on occasionally; if I'm not tanking I'm using mine.

[Jimjam]

Telling someone that they lack integrity is critical feedback if the person, in question, needs a wakeup call.

You can't act all high and mighty, and barely disguising some arrogant and pathological desire to be the most clever person in the room, whilst denying clear logic and refusing to admit being wrong.

When you act like that, you no longer deserve amicable discussion. Don't know why I should be singled out here, considering other people have rightfully spoke harshly in his direction.

Sorry pal. You’re right you’re not the only one, and I didn’t mean to make you feel singled out, that was a fault of my phrasing. I was trying to come across as amicable to avoid causing upset. I totally get thé frustration.

[Gloomlord]

Sorry pal. You’re right you’re not the only one, and I didn’t mean to make you feel singled out, that was a fault of my phrasing. I was trying to come across as amicable to avoid causing upset. I totally get thé frustration.

No worries.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

There is a difference between critical feedback and insult my good, yet gloomy, buddy :)

Indeed. Gloomlord isn't someone who provides critical feedback, by his own admission.

"Trolling" and insulting you.

Hopefully one day he will stop logging on to these forums to simply troll, insult, and lie. A few of his posts have been normal, so it isn't a lost cause yet.

[Duik]

Nope. Not gonna happen on my watch.

[Gloomlord]

Indeed. Gloomlord isn't someone who provides critical feedback, by his own admission.

Ah, are we now resorting to putting words into other people's mouths?

What am I saying? You've always resorted to underhanded tactics! That's why we loathe/mock you...

[Crede]

Please stop telling people Torpor Shamans need extra worn regen with Torpor. They don't. It never hurts of course, but Shamans play differently once they get Torpor. You are thinking in terms of melee classes that don't have Torpor. Worn Regen/Spell Regen is much better in that scenario.

Here is a prime example of putting words in my mouth to try to support his claim that regen is not needed. I never once stated regen was needed with torpor. The best shaman solo artist was a barbarian. You don’t need regen to win. You need skill and the right amount of items.

However regen factually is still a benefit. Whether or not you choose to ignore this benefit(DSM) is entirely up to you. It will result in less torpor’s needed over time to heal yourself. If it’s not making you safer, it’s at least lowering your required APM. Troll racial/fungi/regrowth is 42/tick at 60. You get 14% of torpor for essentially doing nothing.

DSM is just a forum troll who tries to “win” by either putting words in people’s mouths or shifting goalposts, always trying to be the last poster. I don’t care whether or not he agrees with me. I just am here to defend the truth, present facts, and let people decide what they want to do with that information.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Here is a prime example of putting words in my mouth to try to support his claim that regen is not needed. I never once stated regen was needed with torpor. The best shaman solo artist was a barbarian. You don’t need regen to win. You need skill and the right amount of items.

However regen factually is still a benefit. Whether or not you choose to ignore this benefit(DSM) is entirely up to you. It will result in less torpor’s needed over time to heal yourself. If it’s not making you safer, it’s at least lowering your required APM. Troll racial/fungi/regrowth is 42/tick at 60. You get 14% of torpor for essentially doing nothing.

DSM is just a forum troll who tries to “win” by either putting words in people’s mouths or shifting goalposts, always trying to be the last poster. I don’t care whether or not he agrees with me. I just am here to defend the truth, present facts, and let people decide what they want to do with that information.

The only person putting words in mouths is yourself, as I never said regen provides no benefit.

You are the one arguing the benefit will be enough to be noticeable with Torpor. You haven't shown any evidence to back up this claim.

You also do not understand what moving goalposts means. You are dismissing my evidence out of hand and demanding better evidence instead. That is how it actually works. You are moving goalposts lol.

It is too late to try and pretend you are not a troll now when you post obvious lies like this:

Exactly! It’s because of people like DSM who just keep spreading bad advice. He will sit here and say 20 int iis useful but regen isn’t, lol.

You should have thought about your credibility before you decided to ruin it lol.

Please stop your nonsense.

Ah, are we now resorting to putting words into other people's mouths?

What am I saying? You've always resorted to underhanded tactics! That's why we loathe/mock you...

I am not putting words in your mouth. You literally said it, and it is supported by your post history. I appreciate you are willing to admit it, but you need to improve yourself now. The first step is admitting you have a problem.

[Gloomlord]

Why do you keep doing this, DSM? You go into a thread, spout bad game knowledge which the overwhelming majority do not agree with, then you try to make the people who disagree with you into the baddies when they finally get fed up with trying to reason with you.

It seems you have a psychological need to prove you are the cleverest person in a thread, then it backfires badly. Isn't it time to stop already? Forget "autism"-- this is sociopathic.

Edit: I literally said and admitted what? Stop these manipulative tactics and these stealth edits.

[Tann]

Sure glad this "what race should I pick for a shadow knight" thread isn't at all getting derailed.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Sure glad this "what race should I pick for a shadow knight" thread isn't at all getting derailed.

Yeah it is unfortunate posters like Gloomlord, Troxx, Crede, Toxigen, and Ripqozko have a childish desire to attack posters who they disagree with. They want to take the easy way out, instead of backing up their points with logic and evidence.

I am simply defending myself from this nonsensical slander.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Why do you keep doing this, DSM? You go into a thread, spout bad game knowledge which the overwhelming majority do not agree with, then you try to make the people who disagree with you into the baddies when they finally get fed up with trying to reason with you.

It seems you have a psychological need to prove you are the cleverest person in a thread, then it backfires badly. Isn't it time to stop already? Forget "autism"-- this is sociopathic.

Edit: I literally said and admitted what? Stop these manipulative tactics and these stealth edits.

I didnt make you into the baddie. You are the one who comes into a thread and starts attacking posters as your FIRST post lol. You didn't even try to discuss the topic at hand. You are the baddie because of your actions, not because of me.

If you think I am incorrect, prove it. Do not resort to insults and trolling.

"Trolling" and insulting you.

You admitted to trolling and insulting other posters.

[Gloomlord]

Of course! We're all childish, aren't we? Or, at least, those are the lies you tell yourself.

Why aren't you putting the others and I on ignore again if we're all trolls? Because we can "redeem ourselves"?! You honestly think anyone is going to believe that...?

Edit: Why do you think I bolded "you"? Because you are quite obviously a rare exception.

We do try to prove things to you. You ignore the reasoning and make up bullshit like "root rotting in an exp group" when it becomes clear you're losing.

Just come off it already and admit you have a problem.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Of course! We're all childish, aren't we? Or, at least, those are the lies you tell yourself.

Why aren't you putting the others and I on ignore again if we're all trolls? Because we can "redeem ourselves"?! You honestly think anyone is going to believe that...?

You don't have to believe me, but I do think you can redeem yourself. I will not put anybody on ignore.

You started posting in this thread by insulting me. You haven't made one post here about the topic. You are a troll, and your actions in this thread alone prove it.

Don't blame me for your childish behavior.

Claiming you cannot root rot in a group is a lie, please stop saying it. That is your personal preference that you do not like it, nothing else.

[Gloomlord]

You do not put anyone on ignore because you yourself are a troll. Plain and simple.

How much more does this need to be reiterated?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You do not put anyone on ignore because you yourself are a troll. Plain and simple.

How much more does this need to be reiterated?

You do admit you haven't provided a single post here about the topic at hand, correct?

You do admit your posts in this thread have exclusively been to attack me, correct?

[Crede]

Sure glad this "what race should I pick for a shadow knight" thread isn't at all getting derailed.

Unfortunately this is what happens when death gets involved in a thread. Says things like “regen is useless with torpor” just because he can kill a WW dragon without it. He’s a hypocrite, stealth editor, word manipulator, and ultimately just a troll who thinks he’s clever.

We have to defend the truth against people like this.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Unfortunately this is what happens when death gets involved in a thread. Says things like “regen is useless with torpor” just because he can kill a WW dragon without it. He’s a hypocrite, stealth editor, word manipulator, and ultimately just a troll who thinks he’s clever.

We have to defend the truth against people like this.

None of this is true. If you want to defend the truth, use logic and evidence. You can use my Ionat video to prove your points at any time, or provide your own evidence.

Instead, you use insults and lies. I am not sure why you think you can hide your post history lol.

Sorry you ruined your credibility. Sorry you like to troll.

[Keebz]

None of this is true.

Surely you can admit that every thread you're involved in lately gets very very off the rails and goes on for an excessive number of pages? Even if you assume it's through no fault of your own, you should see the negative effect on the forums as a whole.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Surely you can admit that every thread you're involved in lately gets very very off the rails and goes on for an excessive number of pages? Even if you assume it's through no fault of your own, you should see the negative effect on the forums as a whole.

If you read the threads, you will see that I am not the one who throws thw thread off thw rails. I agree it is a problem. Berate the trolls who derail the topic, not the people like myself trying to have a normal conversation about game mechanics.

The issue is you are ignoring the real problem, which is the trolls who derail topics. The derailed threads also have Troxx, Toxigen, Crede, Ripqozko, and Gloomlord. What are the odds?

[Gloomlord]

You do admit you haven't provided a single post here about the topic at hand, correct?

You do admit your posts in this thread have exclusively been to attack me, correct?

Then put me and the others on ignore, you hypocrite.

Be the "bigger man".

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Then put me and the others on ignore, you hypocrite.

Be the "bigger man".

No. I believe you will redeem youself one day.

[Gloomlord]

You do not care about "redemption". In fact, you do not "respect". You do not respect anything or anyone. You do not respect the concept of respect, and you do not respect yourself.

You're just someone who needs to get away from your own self-hatred. I don't mean to play psychoanalyst here, but what else is this behaviour?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You do not care about "redemption". In fact, you do not "respect". You do not respect anything or anyone. You do not respect the concept of respect, and you do not respect yourself.

You're just someone who needs to get away from your own self-hatred. I don't mean to play psychoanalyst here, but what else is this behaviour?

You just keep making stuff up lol. Why waste your time on this nonsense?

You also didn't answer my questions:

You do admit you haven't provided a single post here about the topic at hand, correct?

You do admit your posts in this thread have exclusively been to attack me, correct?

[Gloomlord]

You're not reading my words.

I'm saying you're immoral, DSM. You couldn't care less about having a respectful discussion with anyone. Why? Because you have a psychological flaw that has become clear to everyone here.

It is irrelevant my posts here are not about the topic at hand. I came to criticise your lack of integrity. Does this matter?

And you chose to respond, thereby proving that you indeed seek attention in a negative sense.

Forget "redemption" and "off-topic". Just put me and the others like Crede on ignore, then you don't have to deal with us. It's so simple! None of us trust you anymore anyway.

But we know you won't do it, because you are a sadistic troll behind all these professions of innocence.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're not reading my words.

I'm saying you're immoral, DSM. You couldn't care less about having a respectful discussion with anyone. Why? Because you have a psychological flaw that has become clear to everyone here.

It is irrelevant my posts here are not about the topic at hand. I came to criticise your lack of integrity. Does this matter?

And you chose to respond, thereby proving that you indeed seek attention in a negative sense.

Forget "redemption" and "off-topic". Just put me and the others like Crede on ignore, then you don't have to deal with us. It's so simple! None of us trust you anymore anyway.

But we know you won't do it, because you are a sadistic troll behind all these professions of innocence.

I read your words. You are just making stuff up, as usual. There is no reason to believe anything you are saying, and it is easy to disprove. You are just wasting your time with this fanfiction.

EDIT: I guess you did answer my questions, you simply tried to twist your answer to make yourself look better.

Thank you for admitting you are completely off topic, and are only here to make criticisms about other posters. Criticisms you cannot provide any evidence for. This is trolling behavior.

This is not how you prove someone is wrong. Bring evidence and logic to back up your positions. Do not cower behind insults, trolling, and fallacies.

You have admitted to coming here exclusively to troll and insult, yet again.

"Trolling" and insulting you.


You have no integrity or credibility when you act like this. It is childish behavior. I hope one day you will stop doing this.

[Gloomlord]

You do not possess the intelligence to see I've beaten you here.

If we are indeed trolls, then there is no need to respond to any of us. So why bother?

Because you know we're right about you and want to upkeep your image, and because you enjoy toying with people.

Stop putting the onus on us for calling you out -- put the onus on yourself for engaging. It takes two to tango, does it not?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You do not possess the intelligence to see I've beaten you here.

If we are indeed trolls, then there is no need to respond to any of us. So why bother?

Because you know we're right about you and want to upkeep your image, and because you enjoy toying with people.

Stop putting the onus on us for calling you out -- put the onus on yourself for engaging. It takes two to tango, does it not?

Where did you beat me? Where did I say I was a troll? Do no include me in your nonsense.

You just keep making stuff up. Either you are delusional, or enjoy wasting your time just posting random text.

I respond to you in the hopes that you will realize what you are doing is hurting yourself, and helping me.

If you want to prove me wrong, this is not the way to do it.

[Gloomlord]

You've been beaten because you don't realise I'm right that you would ignore us if we were trolls. Your bluff was called.

Do you even have reading comprehension? Calling someone "delusional", especially when you're trying to appear morally superior, is just digging yourself deeper.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You've been beaten because you don't realise I'm right that you would ignore us if we were trolls. Your bluff was called.

Do you even have reading comprehension? Calling someone "delusional", especially when you're trying to appear morally superior, is just digging yourself deeper.

Why is the only option to ignore known trolls? I didn't know this was written into law somewhere.

Trolls can redeem themselves. I don't put them on ignore because I will be happy to help trolls transition out of their trolling and rejoin civil conversation. That is the problem with putting people on ignore, you cannot see when they are trying to change. This means you cannot help them out. They basically get trapped, which further fuels their trolling behavior. This is obviously a net negative for the forums.

[Gloomlord]

Like you are "happy" to admit you're wrong when shown, as I recall it? Even though that was another lie you didn't see dismantled you right then and there, because no person, especially one who paints themselves as honest, likes swallowing their pride and admitting they're wrong.

It is the moral action, and perhaps not a big deal for some, but it is not a happy occurrence.

So why are we supposed to believe your illogical reasoning that you engage us out of charity is to be trusted? You just call me "delusional" without an explanation. That doesn't "help me out" even if I were doing this out of a desire to disrupt and annoy.

It's pretty much checkmate here.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Like you are "happy" to admit you're wrong when shown, as I recall it? Even though that was another lie you didn't see dismantled you right then and there, because no person, especially one who paints themselves as honest, likes swallowing their pride and admitting they're wrong.

It is the moral action, and perhaps not a big deal for some, but it is not a happy occurrence.

So why are we supposed to believe your illogical reasoning that you engage us out of charity is to be trusted? You just call me "delusional" without an explanation. That doesn't "help me out" even if I were doing this out of a desire to disrupt and annoy.

It's pretty much checkmate here.

I have factually admitted to being wrong on these forums, and I can provide examples. Yet again, you are making up lies. I don't care about being right, I just want people to get the correct information. Your assumptions about me are irrelevant.

I am not sure why you think you have the moral high ground as an admitted troll, who is off topic and only here to insult.

You can keep admitting you are correct without merit, but it doesn't mean anything. This is just helping me, and hurting yourself.

You are delusional, because you have a bunch of fanfiction in your head about me. You are talking to that delusion, not to me.

Welcome to your first DSM thread. It probably won't be your last.

The important thing is to understand that none of his "advice" is to be trusted or used in any real world/in game scenario.

Thank you for continuing to prove you are nothing but a troll. Your signature is just sad by the way. It just shows you have been beaten so badly you cannot do anything other than troll. My advise is backed up my evidence and research, unlike yours.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your advice is trash and people would end up with a better outcome doing the opposite of what you propose in very nearly every scenario.

You haven't actually provided any evidence to support this claim. If you think I am wrong about a specific topic, use logic and evidence. Not insults and trolling. You are helping me by making yourself look like a fool.

You are throwing a tantrum by putting "do not trust x poster" in your signature lol. It is one of the saddest things I have seen on this forum so far. Thanks for showing everybody you are a troll. They can take a look at that and ignore you.

You are putting a sign on your back that says "When people disagree with me, I throw a temper tantrum and insult them in my signature". Lovely. Why would anybody want to engage with you?

[Gloomlord]

But were you "happy" to do so? Read, DSM, Read!

Are you genuinely happy to admit being wrong?

You are also now claiming "I don't care about being right" which is such a massive lie, that I think even people who tolerate you can believe that.

You just don't see it, do you? If I were you, and I wanted to appear innocent, I would not make arrogant self-righteous proclamations. Things like that would undermine my image.

I also wouldn't make contradictory statements like "I don't care about being right" then proclaim that I'm "helping you". What? Shouldn't you say it "helps noone" if you truly were a moral person who just wants people to "get the correct information"?

Tripping over your manipulations, I see.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

But were you "happy" to do so? Read, DSM, Read!

Are you genuinely happy to admit being wrong?

You are also now claiming "I don't care about being right" which is such a massive lie, that I think even people who tolerate you can believe that.

You just don't see it, do you? If I were you, and I wanted to appear innocent, I would not make arrogant self-righteous proclamations. Things like that would undermine my image.

I also wouldn't make contradictory statements like "I don't care about being right" then proclaim that I'm "helping you". What? Shouldn't you say it "helps noone" if you truly were a moral person who just wants people to "get the correct information"?

Tripping over your manipulations, I see.

I am not lying. You are assuming I am lying because you want to attack me. You admitted to posting here with the sole intention of trolling and insulting me.

I am happy to admit I am wrong, because that means another poster provided better evidence we can all benefit from. I do not lose anything by being wrong, I gain a better understanding of the game. So does everyone else.

We gain nothing when you keep acting delusional, however. You aren't helping your side either. If I am wrong, nobody knows it because all they see is you trolling me non-stop, without even attempting to show why I may be wrong. You skipped the entire debate and went straight to the trolling and insults.

[Gloomlord]

You are helping me by making yourself look like a fool.

I don't care about being right, I just want people to get the correct information.

So why proclaim that it's "helping you"? Freudian slip that you're a troll?

[Gloomlord]

I am not lying. You are assuming I am lying because you want to attack me. You admitted to posting here with the sole intention of trolling and insulting me.

I am happy to admit I am wrong, because that means another poster provided better evidence we can all benefit from. I do not lose anything by being wrong, I gain a better understanding of the game. So does everyone else.

We gain nothing when you keep acting delusional, however. You aren't helping your side either. If I am wrong, nobody knows it because all they see is you trolling me non-stop, without even attempting to show why I may be wrong. You skipped the entire debate and went straight to the trolling and insults.

I thought you "wanted to help me"? How does calling me "delusional" help with that?

That's just you being incendiary, thus proving your hypocrisy.

If you can't see how claiming being happy to swallowing your pride doesn't make you look disingenuous, then you are bereft of any sort of intelligence to see how disingenuous and self-righteous this makes you appear.

You might also like to notice I never "admitted" to trolling. You may claim that I am, but I did not admit to it. That is you being a liar, once again.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

So why proclaim that it's "helping you"? Freudian slip that you're a troll?

You are helping me because you are showing readers you are a delusional troll whose sole purpose is to troll and insult others. They can ignore you and get back to the topic at hand. Hopefully you will stop this behavior one day, but it looks like today isn't that day.

If you genuinely think I am being malicious and providing false information, the solution is to consistently prove me wrong with facts and logic. If my advise is so bad and easy to disprove, this should be trivial. That will show I am not a trustworthy source.

So far, you have yet to do this. Either you are lazy, or your assumptions about my advise may actually be wrong!

[Troxx]

Oh Jesus, I step away for 48 hours and this thread blows up another 20 pages?

I'm up to page 22 but to summarize my reading thus far: DSM thinks he is right again and everyone else is wrong. Again.

Regrowth give more hp return for mana than Torpor. It also doesn't snare you. Both spells are excellent and the presence of either doesn't negate the benefit of the other. I try to keep my regrowth up at all times.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You might also like to notice I never "admitted" to trolling. You may claim that I am, but I did not admit to it. That is you being a liar, once again.

You admitted it here:


It is irrelevant my posts here are not about the topic at hand. I came to criticise your lack of integrity. Does this matter?


https://www.endsleigh.co.uk/blog/post/what-is-internet-trolling/

The insult troll, who posts pure hateful comments just for the sake of it. They don’t need to know the person or have a reason for posting spiteful comments

Pretty much the definition of a troll lol. Your posts have nothing to do with the topic at hand, and are just there to be hateful.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Regrowth give more hp return for mana than Torpor. It also doesn't snare you. Both spells are excellent and the presence of either doesn't negate the benefit of the other. I try to keep my regrowth up at all times.

It doesn't matter that the HP to Mana ratio on Regrowth is better than Torpor. You are regenerating much slower when compared to Torpor. You cannot compare Torpor and Regrowth. Torpor is an actual healing spell that provides significant mitigation over a short period. Regrowth is a small boost to HP regeneration that gives you the full benefit over a long period.

If a mob deals 1000 damage in 30 seconds, Regrowth would have only saved 75 HP out of that 1000. You are going to need a lot more mitigation. Torpor would mitigate the full 1000, and heal you for an extra 200-500.

You can use Regrowth if you want of course, but you should swap it for a more important buff if you are running into the spell slot limit. Torpor is overshadowing Regrowth by a large margin. Regrowth is only improving your regeneration by 5% when using Torpor.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It's self evident. The evidence is all around.

The only thing that is self evident is that you are throwing a temper tantrum because you aren't getting your way.

Posting lies about another user in your signature is proof enough of this.

You are putting a sign on your back saying "I will throw a temper tantrum if I disagree with you". That is not hurting me lol. People will simply stop engaging with you.

[Ripqozko]

DSM is the future of kittens, good luck to them

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Thank you for responding in a conversational manner.

Just because you keep saying a thing does not make it true. This is one of the problems with your style of debate. You say these things that are opinion, and you expect all of us to just take them at face value as the word of god and to not even attempt to disagree with you. Yes I know you didn't specifically say that but that is how many of us interpret what and how you say things.

Your opinions are not law. Just because you say something is silly doesn't make it so. People are allowed to compare and debate anything they want. It's not unreasonable to compare Regrowth to Torpor because at a base level they do the exact same thing, regenerate hit points. Your debate and conversation style is the very definition of 'intellectual dishonesty'.


This is projection. Often times other posters (including yourself) do this. You will proclaim what you say is correct, and attack people who disagree with you. The proof is in your signature that you are doing this right now. A sincere person who wants to engage in debate does not stoop to petty nonsense like typing "do not trust X poster" in your signature.

You are conflating what facts and opinions are. If I show the math that Regrowth is only providing a 5% boost to Regeneration when using Torpor, that is a fact. I am not forcing my opinion on you, I am providing you a fact. If I provide video evidence of a fight where extra Regeneration would not have helped win the fight, that is a fact. One that goes beyond theory.

When someone provides a multitude of facts to back up a claim, the proper response is to provide counter evidence if you think my evidence is faulty. Resorting to insults and fallacies is not the solution. When you do this, you simply give the appearance of being unable to admit you may be wrong when confronted with the evidence.

I am not saying you cannot debate things. But it is not good to post objectively incorrect ideas and try to pass them off as objectively correct simply because you like having a debate. If there is a factual answer to the question, it should be provided. Trying to compare Regrowth to Torpor is objectively a bad idea, because they serve two different purposes. Regrowth is there to provide small amounts of HP that add up over time. Torpor is there to heal a large portion of health over a short period of time. People do not compare Complete Heal to Regrowth for the same reason. They have two different purposes, even though functionally they do the same thing; Increase your HP.


You pretty constantly take peoples reasonable interpretations and reading between the lines of what you say and throw it back, "I never said that, you're putting words in my mouth", "Show me where I said that". Then you turn around and do the exact same thing back to us by telling us that we have admitted to this or that when we never did so. You can interpret from our words and actions what you think we have said but you can't then come and say "Thank you for admitting..." when we never admitted anything. That might be what has happened in your mind but that's not what has happened in actual real life. If you go back and read through this thread you're the only one with this style of writing/debating where you state something as fact that someone has not said or admitted to. You can read between the lines and correlate many things that someone has said to come up with your own understanding of what you think they are saying beyond the actual written words but it is beyond dishonest to then state that said person has 'admitted' anything outright and you do this CONSTANTLY.


The problem here is you think people are providing "reasonable interpretations". That is very generous.

Exactly! It’s because of people like DSM who just keep spreading bad advice. He will sit here and say 20 int iis useful but regen isn’t, lol.

There is no way you can interpret my posts to think I said something like this. It is a blatant strawman and a lie. There are many more examples of posters doing this sort of nonsense. This is an example of people putting words in my mouth.

I am not saying I am perfect, and always get things correct. If I have put words in your mouth, you can clarify your statement and I will apologize. I will extend that courtesy to you, even though you seem unwilling to do the same.

People do admit to things by saying them plainly:


It is irrelevant my posts here are not about the topic at hand. I came to criticise your lack of integrity. Does this matter?


That is a plain text admission of insulting and trolling someone. It is the definition in fact. Remember that I cannot see your face or hear your tone of voice. If this was supposed to be a joke or something else, there is no way to know with the little text given. Do not blame me for terse responses that have little context.

The difference between myself and the troll posters is I actually provide evidence to back up my claims, instead of insults and fallacies. Please do not assume everybody's opinions are equal when one person has evidence and the other does not. Evidence does not automatically equate to being correct, but it makes for a much stronger case than simply calling another person stupid.

[Tann]

y'all never going to convince the other that their wrong, doesn't matter what proof or math you provide... This hasn't been about SK's for 10 pages.

Narcissism is a helluva drug

[Duik]

Funny how its an SK racial selection thread amd of the races in question is troll.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

y'all never going to convince the other that their wrong, doesn't matter what proof or math you provide.

Narcissism is a helluva drug

It is unfortunate that people cannot admit they are wrong, even when confronted with evidence.

I am not sure why learning more about P99 is a bad thing for some people.

Funny how its an SK racial selection thread amd of the races in question is troll.

I see what you did there.

[Duik]

Boing.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Except the difference between when you do it and when others, many times in this very thread, have done it is that our 'advice' is almost always given with a grain of salt and the understanding that we don't purport our claims as 'the word of god' not to be debated and that no amount of counter claims or counter evidence will convince us otherwise. The people who have reasonably engaged with you and tried to debate their points of view leave room for personal choice and don't seem to be interested with solving string theory and nailing down limited use cases and niche's that aren't indicative of the totality of experiences across the player base. This is not how you operate. You very often, almost exclusively, seem to be solely focused on proving yourself right in small sample sizes based on a seemingly random, or sometimes very niche, set of parameters and when someone can't convince you that maybe in other examples or when you take into account many different use cases your hypothesis isn't the only way to get from point a to point z you dismiss them. Two things can be true at the same time. There are often many ways to get to your desired destination depending on which road you think will be easier to get there, and just because something is true doesn't mean it's correct for everyone.


Video games are based on rules and math. You can objectively prove something to be true. You are essentially hiding behind the idea that because multiple possibilities exist, these extra possibilities must matter.

I have no problem with someone saying "I think X is true, but I cannot prove it". I do not argue with people who do that. It becomes a problem when you try to promote your "grain of salt" opinion as a fact, simply because you say so. The troll posters do this often. This is an issue because you are providing a false sense of confidence in bad/unproven ideas.

I am not saying my evidence is ironclad and perfect. But right now it is much better than the "grain of salt" opinions people seem so eager to push to the point of trolling others.


As I said above 2 things can be true at the same time. You have provided statistics to back up the claim that adding regrowth to the mix 'would not have helped win the fight'. However I don't believe anyone made that claim (I'm beyond done with this conversation so I'm not going to go back and double check this). 'Would not have helped win the fight', and 'make the fight easier' can both be true. It's a matter of perspective and comfort. If having extra regen makes someone more comfortable during the fight so as that the extra breathing room, even if only perceived, makes them less likely to panic in situations where the fight might have gone sideways then yes that regrowth helped win the fight. Even if the statistics don't back that up. The sheer placebo effect of knowing you had the buff and it was providing passive regen could 100% help "win the fight".


Multiple posters are claiming Regrowth would have helped in the fight. Multiple claims have been made about improved actions per minute, more spells cast during the same period, shorter fight times, etc. All of these things are factual claims, which can be proven with factual evidence. Thus far, nobody has provided concrete evidence to support their theories. They cannot even use an existing video and do basic math calculations to see if they are correct.

Everybody agrees that something can "help". Getting 0.01 DPS is "killing something faster". However, that doesn't mean it will actually be helpful enough to provide a tangible benefit, such as saving enough time on the fight to get more kills per hour. It is not helpful to provide general statements like "Regrowth will help a Torpor Shaman kill something faster", because the implication there is it will be noticeable. This is misinformation if the facts end up showing otherwise, as they currently seem to.

People are not incorrect when they say "Regrowth may give you a small chance to survive in a fight". That is perfectly reasonable to say. Just do not inflate your opinion to make it seem more than it actually is, unless you can prove it.


This is where your fundamental flaw comes in. It is incredibly difficult to present objective truth. You cannot prove that having Regrowth would not 'help win the fight' that you posted a video of just because it didn't help you. As I argued above the comfort and ease on your mind that comes with having a buff that is always helping you can keep you from going into panic mode and making a mistake that will cost you a death. You simply cannot disprove that because it's subjective to each person. So if the type of person who feels regrowth helps them has that buff up just the fact that the buff is in their window can be a measurable help if they don't panic and die. Just because this isn't how your brain works doesn't mean everyone's brain works just like yours. Again I feel like I have to reiterate I know you didn't say everyones brain works like yours I'm making an inference based on the way you speak and debate and how you present evidence. It's not your place to say that comparing Regrowth and Torp is silly or a bad idea. That is just your opinion, which you are free to have, but other people can have a different opinion and are free to debate and compare regrowth to torp to their hearts content. If someone wanted to compare CH to Regrowth I wouldn't stop them. It's their right to make those comparisons and have those debates. You are not the arbitor of what is and isn't correct to compare and debate. *Again* I know you never said you were but again I'm making an inference based on what you've said and how you've said it. (Are you starting to see why people get so frustrated trying to talk to you? I've already had to qualify 3 times that something I'm saying I know you didn't say word for word and I'm sure there will be more times I feel I have to add that qualifier.)


This is the flaw in your reasoning, as I stated above. You have the false assumption that objective truth is simply too difficult to provide. This type of thinking will make you dismiss evidence out of hand, which you and others have done in the past. P99 is really not as difficult of a game to figure out as you think.

It is not your place to troll other people just because they disagree with you, and bloat threads to oblivion.

I am no arbiter of debate. If I show somebody that 2+2=4, that is a fact. It is not me forcing my opinion on you, or shutting down a debate. If you really want to debate something like 2+2=4, you better provide more than opinions to claim 2+2=5.


This is pure comedy. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Either other people can do the same thing you do and infer meaning based on a totality of statements or you shouldn't be doing it. In either case it's at the very least not factually accurate to say someone 'admitted' to something they didn't explicitely admit to. That is intelectual dishonesty.


I am not having my cake and eating it too. I do not create strawmen to try and discredit other posters. If I misread something you said, simply clarify it and I will admit I am wrong. You do not provide me this same courtesy, so I am not sure why you think I am the bad guy here. Remember that you attacked me first?

However, when you plainly state the definition of trolling, that is a clear admission. I am not sure how you can accidentally say that. If you can provide a really good reason as to why you typed out the definition of trolling as your reason for posting, we can discuss it. Otherwise you just look like you are trying to backtrack.


You provide evidence but you disregard other people's evidence when it doesn't line up with your perception of what is important in any given situation. There are many ways to get from A to Z. The vast majority of the time, at least at the outset when they aren't yet frustrated by talking to you, people present their counter view/claim with caveats. It happens often that you disregard those caveats or the fact that someone might think differently or see the problem from a different perspective or that some claims can't be presented with numbers and facts and just because of that doesn't make them invalid claims.

I would be willing to bet a large amount of platinum that the perception of almost everyone you deem to be just an 'insulting troll' is that your mindset is too rigid and doesn't allow for any other path to get to the desired outcome except A-B-C-D-E-F.... etc. Everquest is not solvable. No more than a game like Magic the Gathering is solvable. The mind, skills, goals, dreams, and desires will alter what is the correct path to take for everyone to get to Z. You debate and speak like there is no wiggle room and every debate and argument you enter is a zero sum game and that's just not true. One size does not fit all.

People do not provide evidence. They provide opinions they claim as evidence, and then get mad when I point out it is an opinion. Did anybody else provide videos, logs, etc., to back up their claims? I didn't see it. If so, please show me. Again, you have a misunderstanding of P99's complexity, and use it as an excuse to dismiss evidence.

You seem to think posting some text with an opinion is equally valid evidence to a video showing an actual fight in P99.

I would be willing to bet a large amount of platinum that most people perceive you as a troll, because you actually troll lol. You purposely come into a thread and attack posters for no reason other than you don't like them. I am willing to engage in debate, and provide evidence. I only defend myself when you attack me. I do not come into other threads and start attacking people. It is honestly amazing that you cannot do any self reflection.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Your mindset and debate style make it impossible to engage with you honestly. I would suggest for your own sake, as you seem to really enjoy having these debates and discussions, to try and alter your style.

Almost every single person who tries to engage you in conversation/debate gets frustrated with you in ways that they do not get frustrated with each other. This is a theme that follows you ever where you go on these forums. Now I will fully admit that there are a LOT of trolls on these forums. I am 100% guilty of this at times, but if everywhere you look you see assholes and trolls maybe, just maybe, and please don't dismiss this outright or offhand, maybe you are the asshole.

I will address one thing you said before being done with this thread.


Thank you for admitting you do troll at times. I appreciate the honesty. I really mean that, I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything.

If you are being sincere, I appreciate you trying to give people advice about how to improve themselves.

When you discredit yourself by trolling, it becomes impossible to tell when you are being sincere. This is especially true when multiple known trolls gang up on a single poster. It is very easy to look at that situation and assume you are just piling on to troll.

The trolls need to fix their problems first. I can bet you a lot of platinum that most issues will go away if the trolls actually improve their behavior. People will no longer need to defend themselves from trolling, which means people can start trusting what the trolls say again.

Then you can provide real feedback that people will listen to. You can start by removing that nonsensical signature. I doubt you will, but it will show some sincerity. Otherwise you are painting yourself as a troll as long as you keep it on. You are simply telling people that you will try to troll them when they disagree with you. You can choose to believe I am asking you to remove it because it offends me, but that isn't the case. I just don't want you to further sink your credibility if you do want to be serious on these forums.


It is nowhere near as easy to figure out as you think. You constantly underrate the complexity going on in a game like Ever Quest.

I disagree. The core systems of Everquest are quite simple, and based on simple formulas. You can do an average DPS calculation to figure out how many kills per hour you can get, and this will be true over a long enough period of time. While RNG can sometimes give you good streaks and bad streaks, it will average out in the end. You aren't going to magically get 100 extra kills per hour because you added one DPS. I am not saying you said that, but I can tell you that with 100% certainty, because the rules and math are clearly defined.

[Xenmir]

If you are about to solo Ionat as a shaman and there's an enchanter there who is willing to buff you with Clarity 2 for no charge, would you accept the buff?

[Duik]

DSM holoship youtube (https://youtu.be/bHA7qkiG6DI)

Every thread with a DSM is a Trollocaust.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you are about to solo Ionat as a shaman and there's an enchanter there who is willing to buff you with Clarity 2 for no charge, would you accept the buff?

If they allowed me to click off a buff first, sure. When running around WW I am at buff cap basically. I run all 5 resist buffs because there is at least one dragon who can do each damage type. Cargalia is a Shaman, and she can cast both Bane and Pox. I have FoS + STA + AGI + AC to maximize mitigation. Ring 10, SoW, Levitate, and Invis bring my buff count to 13. I need to save 1 slot for Torpor, and 1 slot for an enemy debuff. I would click off the AGI to get the C2.

C2 is better than Worn/Spell HP Regen for a Torpor Shaman, because you do not need to cannibalize it into mana. When fighting a damage spikey mob like Ionat, you cannot always cannibalize, even when you have no spells you need to cast in the moment.

You need to stay above a certain amount of HP/MP to avoid getting killed by an unlucky set of max hits, which can happen. Regrowth + Fungi Tunic is regenerating too slowly to mitigate this type of damage when damage spikes occur within 30 seconds or so.

In the long term Regrowth + Fungi Tunic generally doesn't help because +30 HP/Tick over 21 minutes translates to 6300 HP, which is 4-5 Torpors, depending on server tick. If the difference between life and death was 4-5 Torpors on a fight like Ionat, the problem was your strategy during specific periods of the fight, not a lack of mana.

The C2 would be more likely to convert into a faster kill speed, because it would give you enough mana for a few extra Bane of Nife's. You are casting Bane of Nife a lot less than Cannibalize, so you have a greater chance of fitting it in somewhere safe.

Would I advise Shamans to try and get C2 every time they kill WW Dragons? No. The Dragons dispel, so you have a decent chance of it being removed. Unless you have a duo partner or you are boxing, you will probably end up spending more time trying to get C2 than the time you save by having it.

Apparently I'm not done. Because this is a perfect example of why people get so incredibly frustrated talking to you and why it's readily apparent for everyone to see that you seem to relish and crave the last word on any topic. All you had to do was quote me and say "Agree to disagree" and be done with it. There was no need to reiterate the point that you've already explained previously and in other threads. You gain nothing from explaining what I already know besides looking like a know it all that has to have the last word. It was clear that I didn't agree with you and your evaluation about the complexity of Ever Quest. There was no reason to restate your opinion other than to have the last word. There is no harm or no shame with saying that we agree to disagree. But to say you disagree then decide to restate your opinion as if it's somehow the more correct opinion is a big reason people are frustrated with you. Learn to type "agree to disagree" and not feel the need to qualify that.

I restated my position because I am hoping you would reconsider your position on the matter. Is there any evidence you would accept that would change your mind?

You could also stop posting if you think the conversation is at it's conclusion. You accuse me of trying to get the last word, but you are clearly trying to get the last word too. I am not sure why it is OK for you to get the last word, but it is some sort of horrible ordeal for everybody else when I post again. If it is a really bad look to get the last word, why are you doing it?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I suggest you learn to read the room, so to speak.

I can read the room just fine:

Oh Jesus, I step away for 48 hours and this thread blows up another 20 pages?

I'm up to page 22 but to summarize my reading thus far: DSM thinks he is right again and everyone else is wrong. Again.

Unfortunately this is what happens when death gets involved in a thread. Says things like “regen is useless with torpor” just because he can kill a WW dragon without it. He’s a hypocrite, stealth editor, word manipulator, and ultimately just a troll who thinks he’s clever.

We have to defend the truth against people like this.

STEEEEEEEEEEL GOOOOOIIINGGG#!#!
OMFGROFLLOLOCAUSTICSODA.

"Trolling" and insulting you.

The only thing I'm "reaping" now is a pathetic child like you.

https://i.imgur.com/U7MyMOZ.png

:confused:


Please be warned when trying to take advice from DSM.


Looks like a bunch of trolls ganging up on someone they disagree with. This includes your own trolling.

You are basically asking me to let the trolls run free, insult people, and provide bad information without resistance.

I am sorry, but I will not let trolls ruin these forums simply because you want to give them a pass. You should be handing out advise to them long before you get to me.

If you are unopen to the possibility that P99 may not be as complex as you think, you are simply being close minded.

We can leave this at an impasse if you wish, but you are going to run into problems with understanding the game.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Agree to disagree.

Glad to see you are finally starting to practice what you preach. Now all you need to do is stop your trolling and start providing advise to the other trolls to do the same. This will build back your destroyed credibility.

Then we can discuss the finer points of forum etiquette if you desire.

[Gloomlord]

DSM, when I claimed I came to criticise you, that was not an admission of trolling. I think we all know this. Stop claiming it was.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM, when I claimed I came to criticise you, that was not an admission of trolling. I think we all know this. Stop claiming it was.

"Trolling" and insulting you.


It is irrelevant my posts here are not about the topic at hand. I came to criticise your lack of integrity. Does this matter?



I never denied insulting you

https://www.endsleigh.co.uk/blog/post/what-is-internet-trolling/


The insult troll, who posts pure hateful comments just for the sake of it. They don’t need to know the person or have a reason for posting spiteful comments

I'll give you one chance to explain why you keep typing out the definition of trollng as your explaination for posting in this thread. You need to say something besides "I am criticizing you". Nor will I accept your attempts at being a psychologist over the internet.

[Gloomlord]

Well, I won't accept your attempts at being a sneaky sociopath, either.

Because admitting to insulting you is not admitting to trolling, believe it or not. There is no attempt at being passive-aggressive and wilfully obtuse, unlike you. I am calling you out for your malicious and dishonest behaviour.

So come off it already, and stop lying.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Well, I won't accept your attempts at being a sneaky sociopath, either.

Because admitting to insulting you is not admitting to trolling, believe it or not. There is no attempt at being passive-aggressive and wilfully obtuse, unlike you. I am calling you out for your malicious and dishonest behaviour.

So come off it already, and stop lying.

I gave you an opportunity to explain yourself. You just posted more nonsense and insults. You are a troll. You've admitted it multiple times.

[Gloomlord]

Be exceedingly thankful I even admitted to insulting you. I at least have the integrity to do that.

You lack the integrity to even admit you don't like winning a debate, yet still remain in threads. That comment should solidify the idea that you are indeed untrustworthy.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Be exceedingly thankful I even admitted to insulting you. I at least have the integrity to do that.

You lack the integrity to even admit you don't like winning a debate, yet still remain in threads. That comment should solidify the idea that you are indeed untrustworthy.

If you want to participate in the debate and prove me wrong, post about the topic at hand next time. Bring logic and evidence. So far zero of your posts are on topic.

Trolling people proves nothing other than you are a troll.

[Gloomlord]

"I know he's right about me, so the only thing I have left is to point out how this is off topic"

I've already participated in debate with you in the thread about a 4 man caster group. We saw how well that went, didn't we?

[Duik]

This thread is sill going. Not trolling Deeply Sunk Fist. Just pointing out, a simple question turns into, well this shit fight.
OMFG roflmfao lolocaust.
What was the question again? Ok. Torpor good. Regen not needed. Troll regen good and bad. Being snared good. Waffle waffle.
Hold my beer.

[Crede]

It doesn't matter that the HP to Mana ratio on Regrowth is better than Torpor. You are regenerating much slower when compared to Torpor. You cannot compare Torpor and Regrowth. Torpor is an actual healing spell that provides significant mitigation over a short period. Regrowth is a small boost to HP regeneration that gives you the full benefit over a long period.

If a mob deals 1000 damage in 30 seconds, Regrowth would have only saved 75 HP out of that 1000. You are going to need a lot more mitigation. Torpor would mitigate the full 1000, and heal you for an extra 200-500.

You can use Regrowth if you want of course, but you should swap it for a more important buff if you are running into the spell slot limit. Torpor is overshadowing Regrowth by a large margin. Regrowth is only improving your regeneration by 5% when using Torpor.

This is a limited way to analyze the effects of regen imo.

The benefit is more in the long term. A troll with fungi and regrowth will regen 42 hp/tick at level 60. That’s 14% of what torpor does, that is working for you at all times below 100%. If you find yourself in a sustained grinding session, this will add up to quite a lot over time. There’s a chance it could save your life if you get into some dicey scenarios. There’s a chance it couldn’t save your life. I really can’t prove this.

What it will do is lower your required apm over an extended period of time. Depending on how active you are, you might never need to torpor yourself, or less often, and subsequently not having to canni more on torpor mana spent. That amount of regen is essentially a free torpor every 3-3.5 minutes. I was in the hole for about 6 hours the other day helping a buddy with an epic. I was glad to have the regen, that’s a lot of free torpor’s. Maybe my APM bucket is lower than others, but people eventually do get fatigued and decide to stop playing. It’s no different than bards who decide to use stopsong. Theres a potential value add when you’re doing less keystrokes, even though you don’t need stopsong to play a bard.

With a class that demands such a high level of APM to maintain mana levels, I find this to be a significant value add. Whether or not people agree on this is irrelevant. It is a measurable benefit, regardless of how much value you assign to it, and people can decide whether or not they choose to ignore this.

[Snaggles]

With so much of this game being opinion based on weighing of benefit vs disadvantage I don’t understand why some people can’t simply agree more regen is free canni, thus free mana.

One torp is:

Cast torp
GCD click
Canni4
GCD click
Canni4
GCD click
Canni4
GCD click
Canni4
GCD click
Canni4

11 clicks within 30 seconds. It’s a lot of mana but it’s a lot of work. Like a fungi on any other class you can still sit for regenning that last bit or just run around and it will come back eventually. This is a qualify of life effect. You CAN also take the boat or run to most locations in the game, ports make things better. The same argument can be made they aren’t necessary to play the game.

My issue is when people hold their anecdotal “evidence” too proudly. In all my EQ years I’ve only seen a few examples of what appears a professional statistician fixating on a video game and doing research. My own testing is useful (for me) but less reliable, I NEVER indicate it’s the law due to short sampling and less the perfect testing. I probably have 500+ Vindi parses currently in my logs. I can draw some conclusions but I haven’t confined variables and ran a parse on him for like 1,000 hours. My data curve is still wobbly.

My other issue is when people never admit they are wrong if proven so, or even allow the possibility they might not be correct. So much of what we hold to be scientific law is actually scientific theory. Stuff that we base life death decisions on. If you believe your nerd science is infallible but scientists still won’t believe relativity is, well, you might be the dumb one.

Both of these pet peeves are due to overt pride and ignorance. It’s a two-step process of believing your testing is infallible and then the vanity to actually posture to others about it ignoring any feedback or even personal doubt (which should be a burden of most).

I understand some here may take personal offense. Even saying the proposal is trolling behavior. It’s not intended as such. These are general complaints about a subsection of people who discuss in this way. Best case they are delusional but believe to be pushing absolute truth (like many engaging in holy wars), worst case they know they might be wrong and just dig-in out of pride.

Tl;Dr:
-Some stuff is easily measurable, some stuff is almost impossible without an arduous setup
-People can make personal opinions valuing one benefit over another, they can still succeed at the game
- People who are never wrong are exhausting and likely are more than they know (or admit)

Of all the topics in EQ I’ve always been most exhausted with SK stat ones. It’s also a class that is inherently selfish to play and is moderately useful (albeit fun!). People get more invested in ogre vs dark elf than if what weapons a rogue or monk should use which is absolutely more important and less personal than fatty or not. For the love of God, stop using adamantite clubs in 2023.

[Troxx]

I once completed a successful high end group without my pants equipped on my warrior. This is a game and games are based on rules and math. My pants were not needed to successfully win these encounters.

I therefore assert that pants are not needed and thus do not need to be worn.

Time for us all to play commando guys!

[Snaggles]

This is a game where a couple extra tinfoil hats make up the stat loss from no-pants.

[Duik]

A group full of barbarian shaman sans pets is also without pants.

[Gloomlord]

I have a feeling, from what you've just said, Snaggles, is that DSM is just a contrarian troll.

Even a person who is relatively new to EQ will quickly discover the pointlessness of increasing the SK mana pool. Yet here we get DSM again, coincidentally making a point noone agrees with.

This is the same person who thinks shaman is a better fit for a 4 man caster group with 2 charms than a magician. He then proclaims that groups will allow root rotting in a charm group, just to prove the point that shamans are indeed a more worthwhile candidate for this group.

Almost noone will disagree with you about what you said about regen and shamans, but DSM is kicking up a massive fuss about this. If it were this thread alone, I'd be giving him the benefit of the doubt, but he's squandered all trust we might have had for him now.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

This is a limited way to analyze the effects of regen imo.

The benefit is more in the long term. A troll with fungi and regrowth will regen 42 hp/tick at level 60. That’s 14% of what torpor does, that is working for you at all times below 100%. If you find yourself in a sustained grinding session, this will add up to quite a lot over time. There’s a chance it could save your life if you get into some dicey scenarios. There’s a chance it couldn’t save your life. I really can’t prove this.

What it will do is lower your required apm over an extended period of time. Depending on how active you are, you might never need to torpor yourself, or less often, and subsequently not having to canni more on torpor mana spent. That amount of regen is essentially a free torpor every 3-3.5 minutes. I was in the hole for about 6 hours the other day helping a buddy with an epic. I was glad to have the regen, that’s a lot of free torpor’s. Maybe my APM bucket is lower than others, but people eventually do get fatigued and decide to stop playing. It’s no different than bards who decide to use stopsong. Theres a potential value add when you’re doing less keystrokes, even though you don’t need stopsong to play a bard.

With a class that demands such a high level of APM to maintain mana levels, I find this to be a significant value add. Whether or not people agree on this is irrelevant. It is a measurable benefit, regardless of how much value you assign to it, and people can decide whether or not they choose to ignore this.

Thank you for posting in a cordial manner. Please do not read this in a sarcastic way. I am being genuine.

I understand the logic, and it makes sense. I was not trying to say that your theory is off base to the point it is not worth discussing. When I am getting attacked by multiple posters simultaneously, forgive me if I lose a little bit of patience at times.

The reason why I am skeptical about the APM argument is because when you are fighting mobs with Torpor, you are not always able to cannibalize. This is because mobs like WW Dragons can produce damage spikes via multiple high rolled double attacks.

To stay alive in a fight like Ionat, you need to know when to cannibalize, and when to let Torpor recover your HP. You also need to fit in the other spells you need to cast into your rotation.

I have fought 4+ and 6+ Dragons with and without Regrowth. I know I had Regrowth on in the video I provided, but you will just have to take my word that I don't always use it. I have killed a lot more WW Dragons unrecorded than recorded.

I haven't noticed a difference in my APM with and without Regrowth when fighting mobs with Torpor. I have been playing a Shaman for years too. This is why I caution against claiming that you will get a noticeable APM benefit. I am not saying you are getting nothing, but if it ends up being 1 APM, most people are probably not going to rush out and buy a Fungi to get that. Based on my observation that most Torpor Shamans are not wearing Fungi on a regular basis, I am confident that other people understand this, even if it is at a subconscious level. Torpor Shamans wouldn't get Vindi BPs to replace Fungis.

That is why we need to clarify at least a rough estimate of how much APM you will get back, so people can make the decision themselves, instead of making a guess as to what you meant by "It improves APM". I posted the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 Ionat video because you can actually go through it and check to see if there was a certain point in the fight where extra regen from a Fungi would have allowed me to cannibalize, or do something else. You can get a rough APM improvement number from that, and we can discuss it.


...

Tl;Dr:
-Some stuff is easily measurable, some stuff is almost impossible without an arduous setup
-People can make personal opinions valuing one benefit over another, they can still succeed at the game
- People who are never wrong are exhausting and likely are more than they know (or admit)


The problem with this line of thinking is you are clearly biased against me. It is probably due to people repeating strawmen and lies, which influences how you read my posts. The fact that you think I am "never wrong" simply proves you don't read what I post, and you are making assumptions about me. I have admitted to being wrong plenty of times on these forums, and you can look back into the post history to check.

If you were actually concerned about giving posters advise, you would be talking to the people who clearly troll others in an attempt to shut down the conversation. That is a much stronger indication of arrogance and pride. The fact that I am willing to go out and provide evidence for my claims shows that I am not arrogant enough to assume I am correct, simply because I say so. I back up what I say.

It is quite telling that people only have advise for me, and none of the other posters who are clearly acting worse. If you were being consistent, you wouldn't stop at giving me advise. You would tell Troxx to stop bloating threads with silly gifs when he is being arrogant and assuming he cannot be wrong. You would tell Gloomlord that posting hundreds of off-topic posts simply to "criticize" someone is not productive, and simply bloats the thread.

[Gloomlord]

You literally say things like "I do not put you on ignore because you can redeem yourself", and you do not think this is the pinnacle of arrogance and self-righteousness?

I actually think that's worse than saying we're all idiots, and derive pleasure out of our frustration.

[Troxx]

He’s just a troll. I think it is unintentional … but a troll nonetheless of the worst type.

Deep down I am still suspicious that some day he will post a giant “GOTCHA” and admit it was all an elaborate ruse … one we all fell for hook line and sinker.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If all your facts and advice and evidence were so good as you often think they are you wouldn't feel the need to constantly post and repost and reiterate them ad nauseam.

If you want to cure a disease you don't treat the symptoms. You treat the underlying cause. The trolls are here because of you. They troll and insult because of you. Look inward. Be the change you wish to see in the world.

That is not how this works. Fight the trolls, not the people trying to provide accurate information to questions asked.

You are blaming the people who get trolled and using that as justification for trolling lol.

That is just sad.

[Troxx]

I know I had Regrowth on in the video I provided, but you will just have to take my word that I don't always use it. I have killed a lot more WW Dragons unrecorded than recorded.

But what about factual evidence, incontrovertible proof, logs, parses and videos?

You always demand evidence from others.

https://media.tenor.com/K2GHKs5QlTMAAAAM/the-irony-irony.gif

[Toxigen]

I once completed a successful high end group without my pants equipped on my warrior. !

There was this one particular warrior in Riot who used to tank shirtless on the regular. Pretty sure he did Vulak once w/ no BP.

He was a good elf.

[Gloomlord]

That is not how this works. Fight the trolls, not the people trying to provide accurate information to questions asked.

You are blaming the people who get trolled and using that as justification for trolling lol.

That is just sad.

There is this thing, you massive lying hypocrite: it's called "ignore".

Use the feature, and don't give me this bullshit about "redemption".

https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZm5zMHA2dTh6ZzUwczZ6bHN5djc5Nmp kOTNha283MDE3ejg3NWNpZyZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/3o84sw9CmwYpAnRRni/giphy.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You cannot control the trolls. You can only control yourself and how you choose to react and engage with them. What you say is blame I say is advice. If you change the paradigm the trolls fall away like so much bark from a dying tree. You cause them to survive and thrive. Look back at how many of your threads have trolls and who those people are trolling. Almost exclusively they troll you and only you.

Indeed. That is why I will continue to post factual information to counter the misinformation and call out the trolls for what they are. That is all I can do, and hope that people prefer reason, logic, and facts over your trolling nonsense.

Take your own advise and control yourself better. We will see a much better improvement on the forums if you do that.

But what about factual evidence, incontrovertible proof, logs, parses and videos?

You always demand evidence from others.


I have provided a lot of evidence. You have provided a few pixelated images of parses and a parse you deemed invalid.

You dismiss all evidence out of hand (moving the goalposts). You will just make an excuse when I provide anything. That is what you do.

There is this thing, you massive lying hypocrite: it's called "ignore".

Use the feature, and don't give me this bullshit about "redemption".


No. Your opinion about the ignore button is simply an opinion. You can stop trolling at any time. Control yourself better, as Croco suggests.

[Troxx]

https://media.tenor.com/K2GHKs5QlTMAAAAM/the-irony-irony.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That's actually not true. There's a lot more and less you can do. There are a myriad of options to fix the problem from your side of things. Whether you think that's your responsibility or something you want to do is your choice. But you continue to use the one method that we know for sure doesn't work.

1. You are not providing advise to anyone else on these forums. This shows a clear bias. This leads into point number two.
2. You have admitted to trolling, so there is no way to know if this advise is a troll or not.
3. Just because you dislike me, or dislike the way I speak, it doesn't mean I am wrong, or I am providing bad information.
4. You do not have to like me to accept truthful information.
5. Take your own advise first and stop trolling. Fight the trolls so they stop too. Then we won't have these thread bloating issues. Troxx and Gloomlord are two clear offenders you should be talking to first if you actually cared. Right now you are being hypocritical at best, and a troll at worst.

[Gloomlord]

No. Your opinion about the ignore button is simply an opinion. You can stop trolling at any time. Control yourself better, as Croco suggests.

I could say the same thing about you, but that's not the point.

The point is that you desire conflict for the mere sake of it. You can put me on ignore -- Out of sight and out of mind. There is no need to engage with my angry declarations. The option is right there, and you're not taking it.

And I don't think it's because it's "out of the goodness of your heart", because you are morally bankrupt in the way you argue.

[Troxx]

Then we won't have these thread bloating issues. Troxx and Gloomlord are two clear offenders you should be talking to first if you actually cared. Right now you are being hypocritical at best, and a troll at worst.

https://media.tenor.com/NvYQ6uj9njAAAAAM/laugh-funny.gif

DSM accusing others of bloating threads.

Total posts in this thread: 390
Tota DSM posts: 144
Total Troxx posts: 16 (including this one)
Total Gloomlord posts: 35

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM accusing others of bloating threads.

Total posts in this thread: 390
Tota DSM posts: 144
Total Troxx posts: 16 (including this one)
Total Gloomlord posts: 35

You need to aggregate the top posters who have been replying to me, and you will see it evens out. I am averaging one response per message directed at me. There are simply multiple posters talking to me at once.

As usual, your attempts at trolling are really bad, because they can be disproven in two seconds.

Let's do the basic math together.

If 5 people reply to one user 20 times each, and the user in question replies to each, the single user has 100 posts the other 5 people have 20 each. 5 x 20 = 100.

[Troxx]

DSM post: 145
Troxx posts: 17

https://media.tenor.com/pxzOB-4LIoAAAAAM/league-of-legends-lol.gif

Dude it’s the same in every one of these threads. Your asinine posts/reposts and arguments usually make up close to half (or more) of the total posts in the thread. If you find yourself making up this high a percentage of thread posts and are only posting replies to individual posters … it’s because you’re arguing with anyone who disagrees with you.

And “anyone” in this sense is generally “everyone else” … because nobody ever agrees with you.

Let that sink in.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

DSM post: 145
Troxx posts: 17

https://media.tenor.com/pxzOB-4LIoAAAAAM/league-of-legends-lol.gif

You make proving you are a troll too easy.

If you want to become Chortles, at least try to be entertaining. You have the worst of both worlds right now.

People can't tell when you aren't trolling, and you aren't funny when you try to be funny. You aren't credible, and you aren't entertaining.


Dude it’s the same in every one of these threads. Your asinine posts/reposts and arguments usually make up close to half (or more) of the total posts in the thread. If you find yourself making up this high a percentage of thread posts and are only posting replies to individual posters … it’s because you’re arguing with anyone who disagrees with you.


There is nothing wrong with having discussions with multiple users. I am not forcing multiple people to talk to me simultaneously. If you don't like talking on a forum, why are you here? That is the point of a forum. To have discussions.

You are using skewed metrics as well. When multiple trolls disagree with someone, that is not "everone disagrees with you" lol. Even Croco admits a lot of people are trolling here.

[Troxx]

Pretty sure I was just providing “factual evidence” and “incontrovertible proof” that there’s only one person bloating these threads ...

It’s you sugar-bear

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Pretty sure I was just providing “factual evidence” and “incontrovertible proof” that there’s only one person bloating these threads … and it isn’t the people you have designated to be trolls.

It’s you sugar-bear

If you think I am wrong, prove it. You simply keep showing people that you cannot back up your points with evidence, and have to resort to trolling and fallacies to appear victorious. It's sad to be honest.

[Crede]

Thank you for posting in a cordial manner. Please do not read this in a sarcastic way. I am being genuine.

I understand the logic, and it makes sense. I was not trying to say that your theory is off base to the point it is not worth discussing. When I am getting attacked by multiple posters simultaneously, forgive me if I lose a little bit of patience at times.

The reason why I am skeptical about the APM argument is because when you are fighting mobs with Torpor, you are not always able to cannibalize. This is because mobs like WW Dragons can produce damage spikes via multiple high rolled double attacks.

To stay alive in a fight like Ionat, you need to know when to cannibalize, and when to let Torpor recover your HP. You also need to fit in the other spells you need to cast into your rotation.

I have fought 4+ and 6+ Dragons with and without Regrowth. I know I had Regrowth on in the video I provided, but you will just have to take my word that I don't always use it. I have killed a lot more WW Dragons unrecorded than recorded.

I haven't noticed a difference in my APM with and without Regrowth when fighting mobs with Torpor. I have been playing a Shaman for years too. This is why I caution against claiming that you will get a noticeable APM benefit. I am not saying you are getting nothing, but if it ends up being 1 APM, most people are probably not going to rush out and buy a Fungi to get that. Based on my observation that most Torpor Shamans are not wearing Fungi on a regular basis, I am confident that other people understand this, even if it is at a subconscious level. Torpor Shamans wouldn't get Vindi BPs to replace Fungis.

That is why we need to clarify at least a rough estimate of how much APM you will get back, so people can make the decision themselves, instead of making a guess as to what you meant by "It improves APM". I posted the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPxeOVuX0G8 Ionat video because you can actually go through it and check to see if there was a certain point in the fight where extra regen from a Fungi would have allowed me to cannibalize, or do something else. You can get a rough APM improvement number from that, and we can discuss it.


The fact that mobs like WW Dragons can produce damage spikes via multiple high rolled double attacks seems to further support the case for regen. 42/tick makes torpor do 342/tick. This just made it 14% better and there is a chance it could save your life depending on the damage spike. Again though, I can't prove this, so I won't try it argue it will save your life. But it always working for you while Torpor isn't always, or when you have to cast canni and can't torpor, it is still working for you. Torpor could also get dispelled, while racial regen + fungi cannot, and regrowth can be instantly refreshed with the fungi staff.

As far as the APM advantage by stacking regen, it is hard to calculate this exactly, but I can throw out some numbers.

Say you're in a sustained dungeon crawl group and have slowed 4 mobs. This costs you 1000 mana(250 turgur * 4). For the sake of this discussion let's say Torpor heals 1350 health, because we don't know on average how often you will get the 5th tick. In order to recover 1000 mana, you would need to cast canni 4 12.20 times(1000 / 82 = 12.20). This equates to 1,806 damage taken. Torpor heals for 1350 on average, but it does have an opportunity cost. You need to canni 3 times to make up the mana cost of Torpor. In the process you would take 444 damage also. So in the end, Torpor on average nets you about 906 hp when you factor in it's opportunity cost(cost of mana & canni damage(1350 - 444) = 906. In order to make up the 1,806 health cost from the 12.20 canni's initially, you would need to cast Torpor twice and canni 6 times, to get roughly 1812 hp back. So that's 8 actions. This would also take about 35 seconds(30 seconds + 5 second buffer assuming you have a few fizzles and that you aren't hitting your global reset timers perfectly). Let's assume in an extended session you are dropping a slow around once a minute. so that is 8 actions to make up for 4 slows once a minute resulting in a total of 2 APM saved. That value add of that APM savings can vary based on how many actions you are doing per minute, so I'm not going to come to a conclusion about how much % you would save in APM. It could be a 20% savings, 10%, 5%, etc. You also get back roughly 8.75 seconds/minute to do other things with those 8 actions, and 42/tick in regen can nearly offset the 1 slow per minute for free.

So in conclusion I am hypothesizing that 42/tick in regen(racial + fungi + regrowth) at 60 can save around 2 APM, while also freeing up about 8.75 seconds/minute to do other things with that time(or nothing if you wish). I am not going to sit here and say these numbers are 100% accurate, but I think it gives a rough estimate of the potential APM savings of adding in as much regen as you can. It also makes Torpor 14% stronger which can potentially help with damage spikes to save your life.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

In my opinion the trolls are just the symptom.

This is the core issue. I am not forcing people to troll. They do it on their own accord.

You are blaming people who get trolled, and telling them to try and appease the trolls so they stop.

This is very bad advise. It doesn't work. The trolls will troll no matter what. They are doing it on their own free will.

If you actually want to help the forums, fight the trolls. They will just take more and more if you give into them.

If you give a mouse a cookie...


...


I'll Reply to Crede when I get some more time. Thanks again for replying in a cordial manner! I really do appreciate it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not blaming you. Again with the rigid binary thought process. If you want to say it's bad advice that's fine. I'm willing to accept that criticism. But ask yourself why do the trolls come after you so often and not others? You seem to get trolled and insulted a LOT more than other people. What are you doing that they aren't? What are they doing that you're not?

Mice and cookies, that's funny, imo you are the one giving the mice the cookies.

It is a question of priorities. The bigger problem is the trolls who attack people on these forums, not the people being attacked. If you do care about the forums health, fight the trolls first. Do not give in to them.

Constantly asking me to reform myself and simply ignoring the more obvious problem is the issue. You are actually fueling the trolls by continuing to single me out, while giving them a pass. Just take a look at your signature.

I do not have a rigid binary thought process. You have been trolling me by your own admission in the past. I do not trust you to be sincere right now. This is what happens when you destroy your credibility via trolling. You can build back this trust, but it will not happen instantaneously. Making assumptions about my thought process is not a good start.

[Gloomlord]

You didn't answer his question.

What are you doing that other people aren't to attract such mockery and disdain, DSM?

You know the answer to this question...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You didn't answer his question.

What are you doing that other people aren't to attract such mockery and disdain, DSM?

You know the answer to this question...

My actions do not force you to troll. You troll on your own free will.

If you think I am incorrect, use logic, reason, and evidence. Trolling someone is not a valid method to prove they are wrong.

[Toxigen]

Trolling someone is not a valid method to prove they are wrong.

Sure it is, this is the internet.

[Ripqozko]

DSM is Ben Shapiro

[Troxx]

Trolling someone is not a valid method to prove they are wrong.

It is, however, a valid method of dealing with someone who has already been proven wrong but never stops posting. This song and dance has played out in dozens of threads on these forums. I’ve personally participated in maybe a half dozen of those threads. DSM cognitive meltdown threads. It’s always the same thing every time. Doesn’t matter the topic. It’s extra delicious when the conversation involves shamans, shadowknights, and/or regen vs FSI.

You were at like 1500 posts before the “best 4 person all caster group” thread that started last summer. Look at you now!

Keep on keepin’n on sugar-bear. You do you.

https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZ2l2ZzBmbnJ6ZzlwOXBnb2R3N295Mmg 3NnRqZGtwMTd1dzZrMjd6cyZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjd D1n/xUNda1UAEykrxqXaH6/giphy.gif

[skulldudes]

jesus fucking christ i can't even read this shit out of sick curiosity anymore, it's too stupid

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It is, however, a valid method of dealing with someone who has already been proven wrong but never stops posting. This song and dance has played out in dozens of threads on these forums. I’ve personally participated in maybe a half dozen of those threads. DSM cognitive meltdown threads. It’s always the same thing every time. Doesn’t matter the topic. It’s extra delicious when the conversation involves shamans, shadowknights, and/or regen vs FSI.

You were at like 1500 posts before the “best 4 person all caster group” thread that started last summer. Look at you now!

Keep on keepin’n on sugar-bear. You do you.


You haven't proven anything other than you are a troll. Thank you for continuing to discredit yourself. It makes it easier for people to find the trolls.

[Toxigen]

have you seen my stapler?

[Troxx]

https://media1.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExZmRpZ2JuaDZmeWlxb3dvYXVscDYyZG8 wdGd2dGZjbTg5dHBwODczaSZlcD12MV9naWZzX3NlYXJjaCZjd D1n/3o84U5xPhrn42WgBJC/giphy.gif

[Gloomlord]

We've said pretty much everything to him that can be said. A normal troll would have bowed out by now, but this is merely some psychosis he's going through at the moment.

I kind of want him to just leave the forums now. All he does is give stupid advice and call you a troll when you get fed up with him.

[bcbrown]

My issue is when people hold their anecdotal “evidence” too proudly. In all my EQ years I’ve only seen a few examples of what appears a professional statistician fixating on a video game and doing research. My own testing is useful (for me) but less reliable, I NEVER indicate it’s the law due to short sampling and less the perfect testing. I probably have 500+ Vindi parses currently in my logs. I can draw some conclusions but I haven’t confined variables and ran a parse on him for like 1,000 hours. My data curve is still wobbly.

By no means am I a professional statistician, but I have worked with plenty. High quality statistical testing requires, at a minimum:

An explicit mental model of the world, with all assumptions stated clearly. You need to be able to articulate your understanding of the world before you can know whether your results indicate an improvement of that understanding.

An explicit hypothesis. You need to know what you are looking for in your experiment. Ad-hoc exploratory data gathering can be useful in trying to formulate a hypthothesis, but that exploratory data will not be useful in determining whether a hypothesis is confirmed or rejected.

An experiment design. You need to know ahead of time what data you wish to gather, how to gather it, and when to stop the experiment. An example of a flawed experiment would be trying to show that a certain gear combo causes a certain DPS increase, and then stopping your parse as soon as you show that DPS increase.

Sanity-checking the resulting data to confirm your assumptions have been met. If not, then your understanding of the world is flawed and your data unusable. You need to first run a different experiment to find and fix the flaws in your assumptions.

Run a well-defined, repeatable analysis. You need to know ahead of time what metrics you wish to calculate. You should also do some sort of calculation of statistical confidence, whether frequentist or Bayesian.

Scientific integrity. You need to publish your results whether or not they support your hypothesis. If the results violate some of your assumptions, you cannot rely on the results of any data analysis.

I once completed a successful high end group without my pants equipped on my warrior. This is a game and games are based on rules and math. My pants were not needed to successfully win these encounters.

I therefore assert that pants are not needed and thus do not need to be worn.

Time for us all to play commando guys!

This is a lovely comment when combined with the image in your signature. Horseriding while commando, though, whew. I pity the saddle.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

We've said pretty much everything to him that can be said. A normal troll would have bowed out by now, but this is merely some psychosis he's going through at the moment.

I kind of want him to just leave the forums now. All he does is give stupid advice and call you a troll when you get fed up with him.

This is your problem. You want people you disagree with to stop talking. Shutting down conversation is not how you prove you are correct. This is why you are a troll. You think that trolling is the method by which you can shut down the conversation.

It doesn't work. Prove you are correct with logic, evidence, and reason.

You can choose to stop trolling and start trying to prove me wrong at any time.


...


You also cannot simply dismiss all data out of hand, and assume an opinion is a stronger piece of evidence. This is done frequently by the trolls. Understanding that data may be flawed or incomplete is not a reason to assume it always must be. If you want to show that someone's data is flawed, you need to do more than simple trolling.

It is simply an excuse to always proclaim "You do not have a large enough sample size, therefore all evidence gathered thus far is meaningless". I am not saying you said that, but other posters basically do this. This is a tactic used to try and make all opinions equal. When all opinions are equal, nobody is correct. When nobody is correct, there cannot be a consensus.

[Gloomlord]

You can have the last word. It doesn't matter anymore.

All I know is that I'm getting of your presence.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You can have the last word. It doesn't matter anymore.

All I know is that I'm getting of your presence.

Hopefully this means you are ending your trolling career on these forums.

This is a great moment if so!

[Troxx]

This is a lovely comment when combined with the image in your signature. Horseriding while commando, though, whew. I pity the saddle.

Pity the horse?

Consider this:

As you repeatedly ride your warhorse into battle (bareback), all those oils and taint juices cover your steeds back in a film that hardens into a protective shell. Given enough time, these layers of ‘coating resins’ build up to provide a thick, lustrous all natural armor.

Every horse should be so lucky!

Ps: skip the saddle

[bcbrown]

Every horse should be so lucky!

Tally-ho!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you want to deflect and change the conversation that's fine but I'm not choosing to speak to the trolls and I don't believe there is a dependency between speaking to you about changing your methods and speaking to the trolls about their trolling. You could say that correlation is not causation, and you'd be right. Obviously just because you post things and people troll you does not mean you are causing the trolling. But I believe there is a preponderance of evidence that shows it's more likely than not that when you post, because of how you speak/debate/argue, trolls come after you in a way that they do not come after other people.

I do not believe I'm ignoring the more obvious problem. You are free to disagree with me about that, but that is not my belief. I believe based on the overwhelming evidence of how often you are targeted and trolled that there is something unique to you that is attracting the trolls to come engage you. I don't believe that uniqueness is a positive thing because I have seen dozens of non-trolls get incredibly frustrated with you to the point of not wanting to engage. If every conversation you engage in ends up devolving this way but you observe plenty of other conversations that you are not a part of on these very forums that do not devolve this way I think it's fairly obvious what the common denominator is. I have even seen plenty of the people trolling you in this thread be completely reasonable and able to converse in a normal and civil manner in other threads with other people.

The "assumption", as you put it, that I'm making about the way you think isn't made flippantly or at random. It's made after a critical examination of literally hundreds of forum posts you've made. The data converges in a very specific way. I don't think you're able to look at yourself in the same critical manner that you subject others to. I think if you put up a poll on the forums (and reject the people you consider trolls from the data) you would find people agree with me about your thought process. It is very rigid and very binary. You have a hard time thinking outside the box of the "DATA/NUMBERS" to other reasons or causes for things. You very much seem obsessed with making every argument quantifiable with Mathmatics and that is not always how the world works.

Even in the world of video games and within the framework they present. You still have the human element and that can't always be expressed as a set of equations or simple numerical data. You constantly refuse to engage with peoples questions or ideas if they don't first jump through a series of hoops that you lay out. It's not a requirement of rigorous debate for people to do their own testing and present their own data before being able to speak on yours. You very often hold that up as a shield to block any and all criticism of the things you post, and that is a very intellectually dishonest way to debate and engage with people.

What behavior do you believe to be better?

1. Posting strawmen, false information, and gifs in an attempt to undermine a debate partner?
2. Posting evidence to back up your position?

The question is really that simple. People have different personalities. Sometimes personalities conflict, there is no inherit problem with that. Your assessment of my personality is a complete fabrication, but I cannot stop you from believing false information. I'd ask you to provide evidence to show where you got your ideas about me, but I will not hold my breath.

You are actively supporting the first behavior by choosing to ignore the trolls and go after people being trolled.

Actions speak louder than words. You can choose to believe you are trying to help here, but you are not. I am amazed you think you can sound sincere when your signature is "Please be warned when trying to take advice from DSM". You are telling the entire forum that you will attack anybody who disagrees with you via any method possible with a signature like that. It is beyond petty.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're right. The question is very simple. Why do you get targeted by trolls at a rate far exceeding other people on these forums. Why are the people who very often troll you able to carry on reasonable and civil debates and conversations with other people that do not devolve into trolling and insults.

If you can answer those questions in an honest way I think you'll find all the data you're looking for.

I cannot mind read other posters. Trolling is their own personal decision. You need to ask them. The trouble with this is you cannot tell when a troll is being sincere, or lying.

There is NO valid reason to troll someone. This means it doesn't actually matter why at the end of the day.

I will take a guess, but I cannot prove it obviously. People bully others, often by grouping up. The commonality across the bloated threads is the same posters doing the trolling. They have banded together and formed a mutual agreement to troll people they disagree with. This makes "winning" debates easier for them, because they can appear to be correct without having to actually do any work to show why they are correct.

Because they have shown themselves to be trolls, people will be less likely to engage with them, for fear of being trolled. A troll can have a civil conversation with someone they agree with. The issue comes in to play when a disagreement occurs. I simply happen to be one of the posters who is not afraid of confronting their potentially faulty ideas. Their trolling tactics do not scare me. Bullies do not like it when people fight back, so they will go to extra lengths to try and attack me at every turn.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don't think you're being honest in your assessment. I have seen plenty of the people who troll you disagree with other people in threads not involving you and it does not devolve into trolling and insulting.


You are an admitted troll. Your honesty is in question here, not mine. It is easy enough to assume you are lying about your assessment to troll yet again. You are literally trolling me right now with your signature.


This is a cop out.


It's not a cop out. There is no valid reason for trolling people. If you think there is a valid reason for trolling, you are supporting the trolls in their behavior.


If you actually believe this I think there's an underlying issue you're not addressing.

I think most people would just use the block function on people they deem to be trolls so they don't have to engage with them at all. I have plenty of people on these forums and on discord blocked. It's a wonderful tool to cut down on the noise.


You don't know what everyone's opinions are about the ignore/block button. I personally do not use it at all.


So you honestly think that trolls target nearly everything you post on the forums because they disagree with you but they don't target other people they disagree with? Or do you think it's just random chance that the vast majority of things that get posted these trolls agree with and you're by a large margin posting things that the trolls don't agree with?*

*(I came to this conclusion because of how often you are targeted by trolls compared to every other person on the p99 forums. Your target rate far exceeds everyone else, even the people who post far more than you, of which there are a fair amount.)

Why do you think it is a stretch for bullies to come together to bully other people? It happens all the time in real life and on the internet. I am not forcing them to troll every thread I post in lol.

You seem to forget other posters agree with me too. I am not the only one who shares my opinions.

[Troxx]

Why are the people who very often troll you able to carry on reasonable and civil debates and conversations with other people that do not devolve into trolling and insults.

Croco may be on to something here guys …

Let’s see if DSM can figure it out.

[Troxx]

My perception is that your opinions seem to be in the minority and that there are usually very few people who agree with you when I read a thread you're actively posting in.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The cop out is saying it doesn't matter at the end of the day why they are trolling you. That absolves you from any need to think critically about why they might be trolling you.


Incorrect. You are falsely assuming that getting trolled means it is because you are doing something wrong. Bullies do not need a reason to target someone. It is clear you are insinuating I am doing something wrong, while you still haven't provided any evidence.


Obviously no one does. But I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the average person would block someone instead of subjecting themselves to people who either do nothing but troll or troll a very high percentage of the time. People don't usually subject themselves or consume trolling/bullying content if they can make it disappear.


This is yet again, just your opinion. I do not use the block button.


I don't think it's a stretch for bullies to come together to bully people. That obviously happens. I think it's a stretch to think that there is no reason other than "bullies gonna bully and troll" for why you are so disproportionally targeted amongst everyone else on these forums. Including but not limited to people who post more often than you. I don't think it's just because they disagree with you because that would lead to the conclusion that everyone else they don't troll (ie: the vast vast majority of other people that post on the forums) they agree with everything they post.

You can have disinterest or disregard for that question but I personally think it's the most important question to answer regarding the topic of why you seem to attract trolls/bullies everywhere you go on the forums.


Occam's razor. The simplest explanation is I have been targeted by bullies and trolls. This is the internet. You yourself are an admitted troll, and are targeting me specifically with your signature lol.


My perception is that your opinions seem to be in the minority and that there are usually very few people who agree with you when I read a thread you're actively posting in. Obviously that doesn't mean that you're wrong, but it does show a pattern that can lead to a reasonable conclusion. You will undoubtedly disagree with me but I feel like you constantly find yourself in the minority opinion with a small minority of people supporting your ideas because you too narrowly focus most of your debates and don't take a proper wider view of the debate into account.

In this thread alone:

Lack of BE clickies is significant. You’re saving at minimum 120 mana a split. I fear kited like crazy in dungeons. Slam goes a long way in addition to short term fear in close quarters. DSM has provided multiple videos of zones like hs and seb where you can fear kite.

Go troll with all into INT for a solo crawler. If you’re gonna go BIS, then maybe erudite/DE for best mana pool but by the sounds of it troll is the winner for you.

If I was gonna make a SK I’d go troll. Best all around option imo between start stats, regen, kunark clickies and slam.

Two people who often disagree with me, agree with me. Your perception is simply flawed. Just because there are a few threads where a lot of people disagree with me, it doesn't mean that is the general case, or that I am wrong. I am fine with being wrong too! I have admitted to it plenty of times in the past.

[Troxx]

Two people who often disagree with me, agree with me. Your perception is simply flawed. Just because there are a few threads where a lot of people disagree with me, it doesn't mean that is the general case, or that I am wrong. I am fine with being wrong too! I have admitted to it plenty of times in the past.

Precisely! I don’t disagree just because you are you. When you are correct, I agree with you. In this instance I say troll is best for SK. (For the same reason it’s best as shaman)

But When you say BS like:

regen isn’t worthwhile on a 60 shaman with torpor …

or when you say shaman dps in a high dps group with 2 charm pets is as good as a mage …

or when you say 4.3% more dps isn’t “worth it” compared to minuscule extra total mana pool on a casual sk….

Nah man in those instances you are wrong.

I don’t agree or disagree with the person. I disagree or agree with what is being said. Unfortunately you are wrong in these discussions more often than not. What brings you ire, however, is the stupid way you go about being wrong.

[Crede]

The fact that mobs like WW Dragons can produce damage spikes via multiple high rolled double attacks seems to further support the case for regen. 42/tick makes torpor do 342/tick. This just made it 14% better and there is a chance it could save your life depending on the damage spike. Again though, I can't prove this, so I won't try it argue it will save your life. But it always working for you while Torpor isn't always, or when you have to cast canni and can't torpor, it is still working for you. Torpor could also get dispelled, while racial regen + fungi cannot, and regrowth can be instantly refreshed with the fungi staff.

As far as the APM advantage by stacking regen, it is hard to calculate this exactly, but I can throw out some numbers.

Say you're in a sustained dungeon crawl group and have slowed 4 mobs. This costs you 1000 mana(250 turgur * 4). For the sake of this discussion let's say Torpor heals 1350 health, because we don't know on average how often you will get the 5th tick. In order to recover 1000 mana, you would need to cast canni 4 12.20 times(1000 / 82 = 12.20). This equates to 1,806 damage taken. Torpor heals for 1350 on average, but it does have an opportunity cost. You need to canni 3 times to make up the mana cost of Torpor. In the process you would take 444 damage also. So in the end, Torpor on average nets you about 906 hp when you factor in it's opportunity cost(cost of mana & canni damage(1350 - 444) = 906. In order to make up the 1,806 health cost from the 12.20 canni's initially, you would need to cast Torpor twice and canni 6 times, to get roughly 1812 hp back. So that's 8 actions. This would also take about 35 seconds(30 seconds + 5 second buffer assuming you have a few fizzles and that you aren't hitting your global reset timers perfectly). Let's assume in an extended session you are dropping a slow around once a minute. so that is 8 actions to make up for 4 slows once a minute resulting in a total of 2 APM saved. That value add of that APM savings can vary based on how many actions you are doing per minute, so I'm not going to come to a conclusion about how much % you would save in APM. It could be a 20% savings, 10%, 5%, etc. You also get back roughly 8.75 seconds/minute to do other things with those 8 actions, and 42/tick in regen can nearly offset the 1 slow per minute for free.

So in conclusion I am hypothesizing that 42/tick in regen(racial + fungi + regrowth) at 60 can save around 2 APM, while also freeing up about 8.75 seconds/minute to do other things with that time(or nothing if you wish). I am not going to sit here and say these numbers are 100% accurate, but I think it gives a rough estimate of the potential APM savings of adding in as much regen as you can. It also makes Torpor 14% stronger which can potentially help with damage spikes to save your life.

I'll Reply to Crede when I get some more time. Thanks again for replying in a cordial manner! I really do appreciate it.

Let’s get back to this discussion, it seems you have plenty of time to engage with others. Looking at my numbers I realized I wasn’t factoring in the APM of a gcd. Going back to my above example, 4 slows costs you 1000 mana. This is approximately 2 torpor’s and 6 cannis. That would be 14 actions((torpor+gcd+canni+gcd+canni+gcd+canni) * 2 = 14). This results in about 4 APM based on my earlier post. If you’re taking things somewhat easily which lets say is about 20 APM, that could potentially be a 20% APM reduction. To me that is significant. I don’t know what the average shaman APM is though as there’s likely too much variance there, but I do think there’s value added here. And as previously mentioned, regen also can make torpor 14% better. While you may not feel this is personally worth it, I do think people should realize these numbers and let them decide accordingly.

Such thing can vary based on the type of engagement you are using, but I think where you’ll see the true benefit of regen is in longer situations, which you’ve previously agreed with. Or if you ever find yourself in a bind and have to use FD ring, it can be really nice for that. I don’t think there’s enough evidence that supports neglecting it completely.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let’s get back to this discussion, it seems you have plenty of time to engage with others. Looking at my numbers I realized I wasn’t factoring in the APM of a gcd. Going back to my above example, 4 slows costs you 1000 mana. This is approximately 2 torpor’s and 6 cannis. That would be 14 actions((torpor+gcd+canni+gcd+canni+gcd+canni) * 2 = 14). This results in about 4 APM based on my earlier post. If you’re taking things somewhat easily which lets say is about 20 APM, that could potentially be a 20% APM reduction. To me that is significant. I don’t know what the average shaman APM is though as there’s likely too much variance there, but I do think there’s value added here. And as previously mentioned, regen also can make torpor 14% better. While you may not feel this is personally worth it, I do think people should realize these numbers and let them decide accordingly.

Such thing can vary based on the type of engagement you are using, but I think where you’ll see the true benefit of regen is in longer situations, which you’ve previously agreed with. Or if you ever find yourself in a bind and have to use FD ring, it can be really nice for that. I don’t think there’s enough evidence that supports neglecting it completely.

I did not forget about you. I simply want to look over my logs on the Ionat fight to compare it against your ideas. I do not have access to my logs right now. That is why I was responding to others. Apologies.

[Crede]

I did not forget about you. I simply want to look over my logs on the Ionat fight to compare it against your ideas. I do not have access to my logs right now. That is why I was responding to others. Apologies.

No worries! Thanks for the heads up.

[Troxx]

Let’s get back to this discussion, it seems you have plenty of time to engage with others. Looking at my numbers I realized I wasn’t factoring in the APM of a gcd. Going back to my above example, 4 slows costs you 1000 mana. This is approximately 2 torpor’s and 6 cannis. That would be 14 actions((torpor+gcd+canni+gcd+canni+gcd+canni) * 2 = 14). This results in about 4 APM based on my earlier post. If you’re taking things somewhat easily which lets say is about 20 APM, that could potentially be a 20% APM reduction. To me that is significant. I don’t know what the average shaman APM is though as there’s likely too much variance there, but I do think there’s value added here. And as previously mentioned, regen also can make torpor 14% better. While you may not feel this is personally worth it, I do think people should realize these numbers and let them decide accordingly.

Such thing can vary based on the type of engagement you are using, but I think where you’ll see the true benefit of regen is in longer situations, which you’ve previously agreed with. Or if you ever find yourself in a bind and have to use FD ring, it can be really nice for that. I don’t think there’s enough evidence that supports neglecting it completely.

TLDR.

Cliff notes:

-hp = mana for shamans
-regen buff = most efficient hp per mana spell
-fungi > Vindi bp by 13hp/tick
-troll innate regen stacks on top
-more hp regen baseline, fewer torpor casts
-fewer torpor casts is less canni 4s needed to regain it and more time spent doing literally anything else. This could be productive things like casting other spells or Quality of Life things like scratching my ass, picking my nose or just spacing out on a busy busy class that has all the shit to do. Buff others, debuff mobs, heal self/others, cast other crap. Playing a shaman is almost as time intensive as playing a bard. Any free time to space out is golden.

For a shaman:
-fungi is the BIS bp item for 99.99% of content
-racial regen does matter
-why the heck wouldn’t you cast regrowth once every 20 mins??

As for me, I gave my fungi to my monk and am using thurg bp on my troll shaman. I did it because I’m poor and lazy and … I agree with DSM that with torpor I can get by just fine. If I had a Vindi bp? Even better. Unlike DSM my troll shaman keeps regrowth up so I win.

What I am not conceding is that fungi isn’t better than Vindi bp. It is. It is flat out better. I’m just too poor and lazy to buy and farm another. The one I have is where it will be needed the most.

Playing a torpor shaman is about the easiest, slack jawed, easy ass class I could play at 60 other than my mage. A shaman with an IQ of 75 can operate at 95% capacity because its just that easy and overpowered.

[Troxx]

Double post

[Snaggles]

The problem with this line of thinking is you are clearly biased against me. It is probably due to people repeating strawmen and lies, which influences how you read my posts. The fact that you think I am "never wrong" simply proves you don't read what I post, and you are making assumptions about me. I have admitted to being wrong plenty of times on these forums, and you can look back into the post history to check.

If you were actually concerned about giving posters advise, you would be talking to the people who clearly troll others in an attempt to shut down the conversation. That is a much stronger indication of arrogance and pride. The fact that I am willing to go out and provide evidence for my claims shows that I am not arrogant enough to assume I am correct, simply because I say so. I back up what I say.

It is quite telling that people only have advise for me, and none of the other posters who are clearly acting worse. If you were being consistent, you wouldn't stop at giving me advise. You would tell Troxx to stop bloating threads with silly gifs when he is being arrogant and assuming he cannot be wrong. You would tell Gloomlord that posting hundreds of off-topic posts simply to "criticize" someone is not productive, and simply bloats the thread.


I'm not scrubbing your 4500+ posts for historical tidbits. I cant recall you posting once with any humility, running one stupid test without an ounce of "I could be wrong here but..." baked in. Nobody here has poisoned my views against you, an ounce of levity in a DSM post would be refreshing though. Hell, it's a video game. You arent trying to convince people against eating Tide pods.

I don't care if people troll. You can either try to shut them down or just offer a counter-point. If people cant tell the difference between a reasoned effort to help and trolling this millennium won't be nice to them. Assuming they dont try to lick a wall outlet before that.

Seriously though, if my posts, tests, and general logic drive the community at large insane they will tell me. I'd probably adjust my approach a bit if that was the case or at least tease back with a bit of humor. I do believe what I post but understand if people don't agree. They didnt sign up for a class and I'm not getting paid to teach.


By no means am I a professional statistician, but I have worked with plenty. High quality statistical testing requires, at a minimum:

An explicit mental model of the world, with all assumptions stated clearly. You need to be able to articulate your understanding of the world before you can know whether your results indicate an improvement of that understanding.

An explicit hypothesis. You need to know what you are looking for in your experiment. Ad-hoc exploratory data gathering can be useful in trying to formulate a hypthothesis, but that exploratory data will not be useful in determining whether a hypothesis is confirmed or rejected.

An experiment design. You need to know ahead of time what data you wish to gather, how to gather it, and when to stop the experiment. An example of a flawed experiment would be trying to show that a certain gear combo causes a certain DPS increase, and then stopping your parse as soon as you show that DPS increase.

Sanity-checking the resulting data to confirm your assumptions have been met. If not, then your understanding of the world is flawed and your data unusable. You need to first run a different experiment to find and fix the flaws in your assumptions.

Run a well-defined, repeatable analysis. You need to know ahead of time what metrics you wish to calculate. You should also do some sort of calculation of statistical confidence, whether frequentist or Bayesian.

Scientific integrity. You need to publish your results whether or not they support your hypothesis. If the results violate some of your assumptions, you cannot rely on the results of any data analysis.


Thank you for this. I never thought something so interesting would be found on page 42 of a SK stat thread :)




In summary, though, pick the race you want. Level the race you want. Pick the stats you want and be ok with probably regretting something about your class/race/stats at one point. Get good at your class and weed through the BS. Don't afk for DKP's and play the hell out of the game so it inspires people to want to roll the same class. Download Gameparse and check it occasionally to draw some conclusions so you can cut through bias and feelings. Oh and always bring plat to tip for ports...port beggers are losers.

[Jimjam]

Why trolls online are so mean.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3637918

I don’t think we need to discuss this on a starter sk thread. If you want to continue that discussion perhaps do so in the link above.

The only kind of troll relevant to this thread is the slamming, regening false giant!

[Troxx]

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=422749


Lol watch DSM inject himself into RnF thread … and nobody listens

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Let’s get back to this discussion, it seems you have plenty of time to engage with others. Looking at my numbers I realized I wasn’t factoring in the APM of a gcd. Going back to my above example, 4 slows costs you 1000 mana. This is approximately 2 torpor’s and 6 cannis. That would be 14 actions((torpor+gcd+canni+gcd+canni+gcd+canni) * 2 = 14). This results in about 4 APM based on my earlier post. If you’re taking things somewhat easily which lets say is about 20 APM, that could potentially be a 20% APM reduction. To me that is significant. I don’t know what the average shaman APM is though as there’s likely too much variance there, but I do think there’s value added here. And as previously mentioned, regen also can make torpor 14% better. While you may not feel this is personally worth it, I do think people should realize these numbers and let them decide accordingly.

Such thing can vary based on the type of engagement you are using, but I think where you’ll see the true benefit of regen is in longer situations, which you’ve previously agreed with. Or if you ever find yourself in a bind and have to use FD ring, it can be really nice for that. I don’t think there’s enough evidence that supports neglecting it completely.

Ok I took a look at my logs.

1. 400 actions over 21 minutes (19 APM)
2. +15 Regen provided 2400 HP (2 Torpors). I didn't have Regrowth on for the first 5 minutes or so.
3. I cast 33 Torpors and 121 cannibalizes, which means 4 cannibalizes per Torpor.
4. (4 actions from 2x Torpor + 2x GCD) + (16 actions from 8x cannablizes + 8x GCD) = 20 actions saved potentially with Regrowth.
5. Theoretically I saved 1 APM in that fight from Regrowth, assuming I needed the two Torpors. I would have been at 20 APM without Regrowth + Fungi.

Using the data above and assuming I had Fungi + Regrowth on the entire fight:
1. 420 actions over 21 minutes (20 APM)
2. +30 Regen provided 6300 HP (5 Torpors)
3. 4 cannibalizes per Torpor
4. (10 actions from 5x Torpor + 5x GCD) + (40 actions from 20x cannablizes + 20x GCD) = 50 actions saved potentially with Regrowth + Fungi.
5. Theoretically goes down to 17.7 APM

Fungi + Regrowth saves roughly 2 APM. That is why I am saying it's not really noticeable for Shaman players. 20 APM really isn't bad to begin with. 18 APM isn't going to feel different over a fight this long. This is especially true since Shaman spells are long casts. You are looking at 5-10 seconds per 2 actions via waiting for spells to finish, so you can rest your hands. The cannibalize portions are going to be the heaviest, but you are still forced to wait 4 seconds per cannibalize, so that is 1 action per 2 seconds per cannibalize.

This is why Shamans prefer Vindi BP. Fungi Tunic alone is saving 1 APM, and Vindi BP provides more AC, HP, and Resistances. All of these stats are better for mitigating damage spikes, which are the biggest problems Shamans run into when soloing tough mobs. This is also why I typically don't bother using Regrowth. I don't notice the 1 APM it saves me. A lot of fights are also shorter than this, so you get less benefit from HP Regeneration. This is one of the longest fights I can think of.

I'm not scrubbing your 4500+ posts for historical tidbits. I cant recall you posting once with any humility, running one stupid test without an ounce of "I could be wrong here but..." baked in. Nobody here has poisoned my views against you, an ounce of levity in a DSM post would be refreshing though. Hell, it's a video game. You arent trying to convince people against eating Tide pods.


You simply missed those posts. You have admitted that you haven't read all of my posts, and you have been caught misquoting me multiple times. I didn't poison your views, you simply cherry picked some data, read a few things incorrectly, and came to a faulty conclusion. Please stop spreading misinformation about me.


I don’t agree or disagree with the person. I disagree or agree with what is being said. Unfortunately you are wrong in these discussions more often than not. What brings you ire, however, is the stupid way you go about being wrong.

You troll a lot, even when you are incorrect on a point and refuse to admit it. You cannot deny this based on your post history. You have hundreds of posts of just gifs.


regen isn’t worthwhile on a 60 shaman with torpor …


You are misquoting me here. Please stop creating strawmen.


or when you say shaman dps in a high dps group with 2 charm pets is as good as a mage …


You can get to Mage level DPS when you root rot. Please stop creating strawmen.


or when you say 4.3% more dps isn’t “worth it” compared to minuscule extra total mana pool on a casual sk….


So far my data on this topic is more conclusive than yours is. Please stop saying this is BS when you haven't done anything to show otherwise.

[Jimjam]

That is pretty consistent reasoning that for you ~5% change is not substantial (i.e the 4.3% dps improvement from +20 str).

How substantial improvement would you have wanted it to be to be worthwhile?

[Troxx]

That is pretty consistent reasoning that for you ~5% change is not substantial (i.e the 4.3% dps improvement from +20 str).

How substantial improvement would you have wanted it to be to be worthwhile?

Oh snap!

https://media.tenor.com/7j3cvrEv18gAAAAC/burn-snaps.gif

[DeathsSilkyMist]

That is pretty consistent reasoning that for you ~5% change is not substantial (i.e the 4.3% dps improvement from +20 str).

How substantial improvement would you have wanted it to be to be worthwhile?

That is an interesting observation. I never connected the multiple calculations I've done that end up being around 5% before. What a coincidence.

5% in general isn't a large boost in a game like Everquest, due to the numbers being so small. It's usually too small to get you to the next threshold, like getting more kills per hour while XPing.

Fungi Tunic is much better on a Troll SK than a Torpor Shaman. Fungi Tunic is providing more than a 50% boost to your HP Regen for the Troll SK.

You would have to provide a specific topic for me to see what percentage would get you to the next threshold of whatever we are discussing. It will almost certainly be bigger than 5% though.

[Snaggles]

That is an interesting observation. I never connected the multiple calculations I've done that end up being around 5% before. What a coincidence.

5% in general isn't a large boost in a game like Everquest, due to the numbers being so small. It's usually too small to get you to the next threshold, like getting more kills per hour while XPing.

Fungi Tunic is much better on a Troll SK than a Torpor Shaman. Fungi Tunic is providing more than a 50% boost to your HP Regen for the Troll SK.

You would have to provide a specific topic for me to see what percentage would get you to the next threshold of whatever we are discussing. It will almost certainly be bigger than 5% though.

I'm not snipping your post down at all since I'd hate to be a cherry-picking troll, but do you know the general rule of thumb is that Avatar at level 60 adds about 10% to your dps?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm not snipping your post down at all since I'd hate to be a cherry-picking troll, but do you know the general rule of thumb is that Avatar at level 60 adds about 10% to your dps?

Interesting, I never heard this 10% rule before.

Avatar is certainly going to provide a larger DPS boost than 20 STR via starting stats, if that is what you are referring to. You are getting 100 STR + 100 ATK. The DEX boost is increasing your procs too.

If people do have enough data to show that Avatar is a 10% DPS boost, that means the 20 STR via starting stats is only giving you a 2% DPS boost at best. Less since the ATK is also present on Avatar.

I don't have this Avatar data, so I am not going to say any of these numbers are accurate.

[Snaggles]

It’s a very common generalization. Assuming level 60, on high level raid targets. If it was less than 10% people wouldn’t be so thirsty for Primals. If it was much more than 10% people would scream at shamans for it even more than they do already.

It feels like a cheesy estimation but my best avatar disc on vindi was 110 dps and I died 3 seconds before it faded. Top one before that was mid 90’’s for a slightly longer fight.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

It’s a very common generalization. Assuming level 60, on high level raid targets. If it was less than 10% people wouldn’t be so thirsty for Primals. If it was much more than 10% people would scream at shamans for it even more than they do already.

It feels like a cheesy estimation but my best avatar disc on vindi was 110 dps and I died 3 seconds before it faded. Top one before that was mid 90’’s for a slightly longer fight.

That's some nice DPS! Thanks for sharing that. Always nice to see more parses.

[Ripqozko]

My best ranger vindi

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 132s, 175k @1326dps --- A Drakkel Dire Wolf 20k @161dps --- Knapsack 16k @121dps --- Ripqozko 15k @118dps --- Idrinkk 13k @109dps --- Rikyr 12k @92dps --- Trazzle 12k @89dps --- Gatitos 11k @87dps --- Logaluger 11k @85dps --- Jenssen 10k @78dps --- Torstein 10k @75dps

The reason folks say 10% is cause of the attack boost. The stats are fluff usually for dps on raiders , the dex and agi are nice but don't really boost raid dps (yes I know procs but lot don't land on raid targets).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

My best ranger vindi

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 132s, 175k @1326dps --- A Drakkel Dire Wolf 20k @161dps --- Knapsack 16k @121dps --- Ripqozko 15k @118dps --- Idrinkk 13k @109dps --- Rikyr 12k @92dps --- Trazzle 12k @89dps --- Gatitos 11k @87dps --- Logaluger 11k @85dps --- Jenssen 10k @78dps --- Torstein 10k @75dps

The reason folks say 10% is cause of the attack boost. The stats are fluff usually for dps on raiders , the dex and agi are nice but don't really boost raid dps (yes I know procs but lot don't land on raid targets).

Ah if the quote is specific to raiding that makes sense, as you are probably not getting the full 100 STR due to it being closer to cap already from gear and FoS.

Thanks for the clarity.

[Ripqozko]

Ah if the quote is specific to raiding that makes sense, as you are probably not getting the full 100 STR due to it being closer to cap already from gear and FoS.

Thanks for the clarity.

I also think you underestimate how good 5% boost in general is, an entire raid 5% higher is a lot of cumulative dps, a lot of people are raiding months to add any % , 5 is a lot.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I also think you underestimate how good 5% boost in general is, an entire raid 5% higher is a lot of cumulative dps, a lot of people are raiding months to add any % , 5 is a lot.

The context in which you use the 5% matters.

If you are talking about the starting stat thread, you need to remember the context. In a raid you are getting enough STR from buffs to cap STR, so you are getting no DPS benefit from the extra 20 STR from starting stats.

[Ripqozko]

The context in which you use the 5% matters.

If you are talking about the starting stat thread, you need to remember the context. In a raid you are getting enough STR from buffs to cap STR, so you are getting no DPS benefit from the extra 20 STR from starting stats.

i think your biggest issue dsm is your only willing to look at things in context of black and white. most dont get benefit of avatar or being capped or whatever for awhile. is there a theoretical bis stat? sure, is the 4 years of waiting to get to that point less important and not quality use of the stat until then? you are only willing to list the absolute best case instead of qualifying what it takes for someone to get there as if those time periods are not worth anything. if you are still benefiting from str which lot do, then the boost of dps is still nice. hell you cant even cap sta on your big ass SK without primal essence. Instead of just shutting down people as always being wrong, try having a conversation. When you talk the way you do, you dont invite conversation you invite conflict.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

i think your biggest issue dsm is your only willing to look at things in context of black and white. most dont get benefit of avatar or being capped or whatever for awhile. is there a theoretical bis stat? sure, is the 4 years of waiting to get to that point less important and not quality use of the stat until then? you are only willing to list the absolute best case instead of qualifying what it takes for someone to get there as if those time periods are not worth anything. if you are still benefiting from str which lot do, then the boost of dps is still nice. hell you cant even cap sta on your big ass SK without primal essence. Instead of just shutting down people as always being wrong, try having a conversation. When you talk the way you do, you dont invite conversation you invite conflict.

This is the problem. You make assumptions about people, create a strawman, and then talk to the strawman.

I wouldn't be asking you to look at the context if I thought in black and white.

I do not shut down conversations or tell people they are always wrong. You are applying black and white thinking to me with that kind of talk lol.

[Ripqozko]

This is the problem. You make assumptions about people, create a strawman, and then talk to the strawman.

I wouldn't be asking you to look at the context if I thought in black and white.

I do not shut down conversations or tell people they are always wrong. You are applying black and white thinking to me with that kind of talk lol.

ok bro, good luck

[Toxigen]

Half of Avatar at creation

Or

A bit more mana

(lol)

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Half of Avatar at creation

Or

A bit more mana

(lol)

Last time I checked 20 isn't half of 100.

In the context of raiding, the 10% boost is from the ATK, not the STR. This is due to stat caps.

[Troxx]

We seem to have crossed our streams at this point. If we want to continue discussing starting stats on a new iksar sk … maybe go back to the other thread.

For the purposes of this thread, my vote remains troll. You get big boy stats, can use kunark clickies, can slam with any weapon and have innate regen.

Alternatives:

Iksar: bad starting stats, can’t slam or use kunark clickies … but you you have regen and ac bonus.
Ogre: good stats, big boy perks, have FSI, but no regen.
The rest: meh stats, no slam, no regen or FSI but have fashionquest potential.

For “best”, in my opinion it’s really between ogre and troll - so FSI vs regen. For a melee who’s gonna take a bunch of damage over the course of their life I opt for regen … esp as a FD class who may need to ‘stay down’ at times. FSI is undeniably useful on a casting tank but I’d pass on it personally.

YMMV

[Snaggles]

Rule of thumb estimations are exactly that. If you build a house like that it will be a bit janky :D .

It likely also depends on the class. Some such as knights have less attack than rangers/warriors/monks. 100 attack (I’m assuming strength is already capped) in theory should do more for them than the others. Still, a 10-15% spread feels right. I’ve parsed a lot with my non-primal Pally next to another with similar gear and they are frequently about that much higher. The ranger is more wonky due to getting bow crits; on a short fight a few 400dmg hits with the BFG certainly pushes up the average. In my one test though I’m certainly a believer.

If you think about it, 5-10% is a solid upgrade especially if you’re 60. Most ToV upgrades going from near BiS to BiS is about that. For a ranger it’s like Kflame to Baton of Flame. For a SK going from a Reaver to a Rocksmasher is about 13%. An Eyepatch of Plunder is 20% haste but at 100% haste it reduces your delay by half; so really it’s about a 10% increase while soloing.

Not to put my thumb on the scale of what you should do (I’m tired of fighting) but this is a slow and relentless math game. NPC’s scale much better than PC’s. Ragefire gloves and turtle belts are silly on paper but it’s important not to get complacent with stats. Carry a bunch of things to swap out, whether it’s mana gear, str-dps gear, and tanking stuff. You can always destroy muffins if you win a /random in a dungeon.

[Snaggles]

Attack off strength scales quite a bit better at 60. Someone could start a level 1 ogre and level 1 dark elf and just compare attack when you equip the starter weapon.

At level 60, I recall a knight gets about 1 attack for 1 strength to 255. No stats are “needed” to play this game at a high level but a small SK 40 strength under the cap will do less dps on average than a fatty assuming same weapons. That’s basically innate CoTP.


For “best”, in my opinion it’s really between ogre and troll - so FSI vs regen. For a melee who’s gonna take a bunch of damage over the course of their life I opt for regen … esp as a FD class who may need to ‘stay down’ at times. FSI is undeniably useful on a casting tank but I’d pass on it personally.



Given the annoyance of pulling with less than an instant FD I’d prob value FSI over regen. The stats are also way easier to tweak for a casual player to meet the threshold for capping with shaman buffs (outside deck/agil). I do like trolls more looks-wise and the regen can be handy. Definitely for like farming greens. There might be a point where the 40 less intel will be annoying when soling stuff but we are mainly talking stunt kills for the sub 1% of players. I expect these people could do the same with any race, tbh. Especially with willsappers, primal, etc.

Like you said, YMMV. I’m pushing an erudite up simply for less xp penalty and no shrink pots needed in HK. I’ll hit 60 and prob not do more than thurg plate MQ’s. Wish she could use a Frostreaver tho…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Rule of thumb estimations are exactly that. If you build a house like that it will be a bit janky :D .

It likely also depends on the class. Some such as knights have less attack than rangers/warriors/monks. 100 attack (I’m assuming strength is already capped) in theory should do more for them than the others. Still, a 10-15% spread feels right. I’ve parsed a lot with my non-primal Pally next to another with similar gear and they are frequently about that much higher. The ranger is more wonky due to getting bow crits; on a short fight a few 400dmg hits with the BFG certainly pushes up the average. In my one test though I’m certainly a believer.

If you think about it, 5-10% is a solid upgrade especially if you’re 60. Most ToV upgrades going from near BiS to BiS is about that. For a ranger it’s like Kflame to Baton of Flame. For a SK going from a Reaver to a Rocksmasher is about 13%. An Eyepatch of Plunder is 20% haste but at 100% haste it reduces your delay by half; so really it’s about a 10% increase while soloing.

Not to put my thumb on the scale of what you should do (I’m tired of fighting) but this is a slow and relentless math game. NPC’s scale much better than PC’s. Ragefire gloves and turtle belts are silly on paper but it’s important not to get complacent with stats. Carry a bunch of things to swap out, whether it’s mana gear, str-dps gear, and tanking stuff. You can always destroy muffins if you win a /random in a dungeon.

I agree people should improve their characters. In a game about increasing your stats via gear, that is one of the fun factors of the game. I like that my Ragefire gloves give me a slight boost to my max damage. Bigger numbers = fun.

However, that doesn't mean a 5% boost to something is always helping you in a noticeable manner, and we need to be mindful of that when giving advise. In a lot of cases it isn't providing a noticeable improvement.

There is no problem with pointing out that 20 STR is probably not going to get you more kills per hour while soloing, due to a large portion of popular camps being restricted by respawn timers. This type of statement isn't telling people to stop getting STR gear. It is telling people the truth about how much benefit they are getting. There is no reason to try and inflate it.

There is also no problem with pointing out that you should be mindful of stat caps. You get no benefit from a stat when it is above 255, so you should be trying to balance your stats as best as possible. Some benefit is better than none. If you are trying to maximize raid DPS for parses, you shouldn't be focusing on STR, because you will almost certainly be capped with buffs alone. You want to focus on getting that Turtle Belt, or the Ragefire Gloves, because they give you a boost above the cap. You want a better ratio weapon, or a better haste item.

There is no problem with telling people what is the min/max strategy. Some people do like min/maxing, even though it may not provide a noticeable benefit in the end. When all the information is available, everybody can make the choice that is right for them.

[Jimjam]

You are all wrong as you are forgetting BiS buffs include HoT so troll/iksar regen is irrelevant while FD. This is why erudite is BiS to resist magic stuns while casting FD and resist magic nukes while fd to prevent interrupt. On top of that you get extra mana to cast sense dead to check whether your pull reset and resummoned its pet.

[Toxigen]

go gettum jimjam

[Troxx]

Lol

[Crede]

Attack off strength scales quite a bit better at 60. Someone could start a level 1 ogre and level 1 dark elf and just compare attack when you equip the starter weapon.

At level 60, I recall a knight gets about 1 attack for 1 strength to 255. No stats are “needed” to play this game at a high level but a small SK 40 strength under the cap will do less dps on average than a fatty assuming same weapons. That’s basically innate CoTP.





Given the annoyance of pulling with less than an instant FD I’d prob value FSI over regen. The stats are also way easier to tweak for a casual player to meet the threshold for capping with shaman buffs (outside deck/agil). I do like trolls more looks-wise and the regen can be handy. Definitely for like farming greens. There might be a point where the 40 less intel will be annoying when soling stuff but we are mainly talking stunt kills for the sub 1% of players. I expect these people could do the same with any race, tbh. Especially with willsappers, primal, etc.

Like you said, YMMV. I’m pushing an erudite up simply for less xp penalty and no shrink pots needed in HK. I’ll hit 60 and prob not do more than thurg plate MQ’s. Wish she could use a Frostreaver tho…

I think troll is the better move overall for sk. With 3 different fds at 60 it’s really hard to die, FSI isn’t what it used to be before when all bashes were stuns. Sks just struggle so much with downtime that regen feels invaluable. If I died on my sk it was because fd failed in my 40s/50s and I didn’t have BE greaves or death peace. Also trolls looks infinitely better with fungi than ogres. Troll regen will also pair really well with soul defiler someday if you ever get that.

[Ripqozko]

DE is best because you don't look like ass, hope this helps.

[Toxigen]

DE is best because you don't look like ass, hope this helps.

[real_sauga_yoot]

Can confirm the BE gaunts are nice to have, legs also, but the boots are near useless. Definitely not a reason to not go iksar. Main reason should probably be the mongo 2h swing animation. Hope that helps.

[Sweeper41]

Looking for some input

Is Iksar SK worse for end-game solo crawling than other races?
Do the armor clickies account for serious mana saving etc?

Solo'd my Iksar Sk all the way to 60. Blood ember isn't needed and you don't need a raiding guild to get Greenmist. My iskar can solo the same stuff any troll or ogre can with equal gear. I never had mana issues while lvling nor do i have them now while soloing. Just play what you like.

[Sweeper41]

I think troll is the better move overall for sk. With 3 different fds at 60 it’s really hard to die, FSI isn’t what it used to be before when all bashes were stuns. Sks just struggle so much with downtime that regen feels invaluable. If I died on my sk it was because fd failed in my 40s/50s and I didn’t have BE greaves or death peace. Also trolls looks infinitely better with fungi than ogres. Troll regen will also pair really well with soul defiler someday if you ever get that.


If you need 3 FD's up you doing something very very wrong. Iskar is just as good regen wise as a troll with the bonus of not being a big dumb brute who has to beg for shrinks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

If you need 3 FD's up you doing something very very wrong.

Having Blood Ember Greaves saves a lot of mana for any scenario in which you don't need to FD as fast as possible. Death Peace costs 120 mana per cast, which adds up quickly when you are doing a lot of split pulling. You can also remove FD completely from your spell bar if you need more spell slots.

Blood Ember is better for dungeon crawling than Greenmist due to how much mana it saves. Epic is better than Greenmist, which any race can get. Stacking Greenmist and Epic isn't worth it.


...bonus of not being a big dumb brute who has to beg for shrinks


You can be a Troll and turn yourself into a skeleton via Shroud of Undeath. Easy fix.

[PatChapp]

Greenmist is a great item.
25mr for a class that does a lot of pulling on raids and in groups shouldn't be overlooked

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Greenmist is a great item.
25mr for a class that does a lot of pulling on raids and in groups shouldn't be overlooked

Greenmist is a good item. If you are an Iksar, get Greenmist for sure. It's simply not a good enough item to trade Blood Ember clickies for if you are worried about your racial choice. Greenmist will be replaced by raid items eventually, but you can't replace BE Greaves/Boots/Gloves.

Any tank class can get Axe of Resistance if needed. That's 20 MR on a 1h weapon. It's usually pretty cheap DKP-wise too, unless something has changed. It has 20 FR and 20 CR as well, which is better than the 5 extra MR. You can put another MR item in a slot that would have been for FR/CR. SK's don't need hate procs to maintain agro, so it isn't a big deal that Axe of Resistance is missing a proc.

You can also use Silver Whip of Rage if you want a 25 MR 1h Weapon with a proc that reduces your damage taken.

[PatChapp]

At least in my guild on green those go for quite a bit and really not too common. Whereas greenmist relatively easy to attain. But your right,it is a good option

[Snaggles]

A turnkey Inny’s Curse is like 100k+. A Lord of Pain’s Khukri is like 15k?

By far the worse thing about iksars is the 2h swing animation. Shroud of Undeath or a Soul Defiler will fix that though.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

A turnkey Inny’s Curse is like 100k+. A Lord of Pain’s Khukri is like 15k?

By far the worse thing about iksars is the 2h swing animation. Shroud of Undeath or a Soul Defiler will fix that though.

I agree that if you plan on never raiding with your SK or getting Epic, then Greenmist can be a good stopping point for very casual players. But then the 25 MR argument for raiding is off the table, for example.

I generally caution against people assuming their characters will never reach level 60, unless they are very sure of themselves. P99 is a game many people play for years. You can change your mind in a couple of years in terms of what you want your character to do. I never thought I would raid when I started playing, but that changed over time.

Greenmist isn't good enough to be something you would choose your race over. Blood Ember will also help you while leveling, so it isn't like you are losing a leveling tool by not picking Iksar. Blood Ember saves you a lot of mana, which is an SK's main bottleneck. This is especially true if you are a Troll/Iksar with Fungi Tunic. You are already going to be regenerating more HP than mana while sitting.

[Snaggles]

I don’t think any knight race is limiting for what you can or can’t do if the rest of your gear/skill is sufficient. Plenty of humans, dark elves, and erudites tank stuff just fine.

If someone likes a lizard, ogre, or troll more power to them.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I don’t think any knight race is limiting for what you can or can’t do if the rest of your gear/skill is sufficient. Plenty of humans, dark elves, and erudites tank stuff just fine.

If someone likes a lizard, ogre, or troll more power to them.

Indeed. I don't believe anybody is saying that Iksars are so bad that they are unplayable. I don't believe anybody is saying you shouldn't pick whichever race you prefer.

This is OP's question:

Looking for some input

Is Iksar SK worse for end-game solo crawling than other races?
Do the armor clickies account for serious mana saving etc?


They want to know the pros and cons of Greenmist vs. Blood Ember. That is why they are asking about "armor clickies".

There is no problem with answering this question.

Blood Ember is generally better than Greenmist for solo end-game dungeon crawling.

[real_sauga_yoot]

Blood Ember is generally better than Greenmist for solo end-game dungeon crawling.

Saying this as a matter of fact is totally wrong. Blood Ember is not generally better than Greenmist nor is Greenmist generally better than Blood Ember for solo end-game dungeon crawling. Both are completely inconsequential in reality.

I've had a 60 SK before and i can tell you that i most often used Cascading Darkness for soloing. Engulfing Darkness is not what you want to be using for solo kills and long fights, free or not. You're using BE gauntlets more for fast paced groups where mana is an issue over time or you're trying to be efficient.

[Toxigen]

Saying this as a matter of fact is totally wrong. Blood Ember is not generally better than Greenmist nor is Greenmist generally better than Blood Ember for solo end-game dungeon crawling. Both are completely inconsequential in reality.

I've had a 60 SK before and i can tell you that i most often used Cascading Darkness for soloing. Engulfing Darkness is not what you want to be using for solo kills and long fights, free or not. You're using BE gauntlets more for fast paced groups where mana is an issue over time or you're trying to be efficient.

welp, c u boys in 20 pages

[PatChapp]

Let's summarize this thread:
Op wants to know which sk race is best for solo dungeon crawling

I think the best advice would be play a class that's good at solo dungeon crawling.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Saying this as a matter of fact is totally wrong. Blood Ember is not generally better than Greenmist nor is Greenmist generally better than Blood Ember for solo end-game dungeon crawling. Both are completely inconsequential in reality.

I've had a 60 SK before and i can tell you that i most often used Cascading Darkness for soloing. Engulfing Darkness is not what you want to be using for solo kills and long fights, free or not. You're using BE gauntlets more for fast paced groups where mana is an issue over time or you're trying to be efficient.

Blood Ember is indeed better than Greenmist due to the mana savings while solo dungeon crawling. I use Blood Ember Gloves while solo dungeon crawling whenever the area allows it. You also have Blood Ember Greaves and Boots for further mana saving.

Greenmist is going to be replaced by better weapons eventually, so I agree with you there.

[Andyman1022]

Doesn't matter class sucks anyways

[putrid_plum]

Any race is just as good as the other in EQ it doesn't matter in the end, pick what you want to look at as you play.

[Stroboo]

This is just my opinion.
The race exp penalties is real and it totally sucks so no Iksar, troll or Ogre
Being a large race sucks so no Troll or Ogre.
so DE, Human or Erudite
DE is best fashion in simple to get/cheap thurg armor, so my recommendation would be DE.

give your pet staff of battle or baton of faith for high dmg, have fun!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Any race is just as good as the other in EQ it doesn't matter in the end, pick what you want to look at as you play.

This doesn't answer OP's question. If OP only cared about fashion, they wouldn't have asked a question on the forums in the first place. They would just pick what they want to look at.

Different races have advantages/disadvantages over other races in P99, and some people like to know about them. There is no reason to assume your method of enjoyment is the same as everybody else's.

[Sizar]

Let's summarize this thread:
Op wants to know which sk race is best for solo dungeon crawling

I think the best advice would be play a class that's good at solo dungeon crawling.

Are you saying SK's aren't good at solo dungeon crawling? Cause if so you are dead wrong.

[Troxx]

This thread again?

[skulldudes]

just don't pick a race for blood ember. be legs are rare and expensive as shit, the bp is garbage, and most people vendor trash the rest (only 2-3 of which are useful). i haven't seen the boots for sale in like, half a year

[real_sauga_yoot]

just don't pick a race for blood ember. be legs are rare and expensive as shit, the bp is garbage, and most people vendor trash the rest (only 2-3 of which are useful). i haven't seen the boots for sale in like, half a year

You're not missing out. The boots are absolute garbage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

You're not missing out. The boots are absolute garbage.

Untrue. They are great mana savers when dealing with living mobs. When a mob is snared and pathing back to you, you can get a good chunk of the Fear casting done from the boots before the mob reaches you. With channeling being strong on P99, you are often able to land the spell even after taking multiple hits.

https://youtu.be/mI_IJ_F1GCY?feature=shared&t=325 - Here is an example of me using Blood Ember Boots and Blood Ember Gauntlets in Sebilis. 40 mana from your normal Fear spell takes 1 minute to recover while standing when you have FT2 and FT1 items equipped. Saving a minute of recovery per cast if you don't want to waste time meditating is nice. It's even better when you don't have FT2 or FT1 items yet. When you only have 1 mana regen per tick standing, that is 40 ticks to recover a single fear spell if you are trying to avoid meditation downtime. Engulfing Darkness is 60 Mana, so I am saving a total of 100 mana per combination use of Blood Ember Boots and Gauntlets. This means I do not need to spend 30 seconds meditating that mana back, or waiting 2.5 minutes to recover that via standing regen.

Efficient soloing is about managing HP and Mana levels properly, trying to ensure one doesn't get too low. With Troll Regen + 2x AoB + Epic, I am always regenerating HP faster than Mana while standing, so it is fine if I take a few extra hits while casting Blood Ember Boots/Gauntlets.

[enjchanter]

erudite > human > troll > rest

[real_sauga_yoot]

Untrue. They are great mana savers when dealing with living mobs. When a mob is snared and pathing back to you, you can get a good chunk of the Fear casting done from the boots before the mob reaches you. With channeling being strong on P99, you are often able to land the spell even after taking multiple hits.

https://youtu.be/mI_IJ_F1GCY?feature=shared&t=325 - Here is an example of me using Blood Ember Boots and Blood Ember Gauntlets in Sebilis. 40 mana from your normal Fear spell takes 1 minute to recover while standing when you have FT2 and FT1 items equipped. Saving a minute of recovery per cast if you don't want to waste time meditating is nice. It's even better when you don't have FT2 or FT1 items yet. When you only have 1 mana regen per tick standing, that is 40 ticks to recover a single fear spell if you are trying to avoid meditation downtime. Engulfing Darkness is 60 Mana, so I am saving a total of 100 mana per combination use of Blood Ember Boots and Gauntlets. This means I do not need to spend 30 seconds meditating that mana back, or waiting 2.5 minutes to recover that via standing regen.

Efficient soloing is about managing HP and Mana levels properly, trying to ensure one doesn't get too low. With Troll Regen + 2x AoB + Epic, I am always regenerating HP faster than Mana while standing, so it is fine if I take a few extra hits while casting Blood Ember Boots/Gauntlets.

6s cast for an 18s max duration fear that you have to recast at 12s if you want the mob to be perma feared - which you will want to do in most cases since you don't want to be getting beat on for 6s while you're channeling.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

The boots are garbage.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

6s cast for an 18s max duration fear that you have to recast at 12s if you want the mob to be perma feared - which you will want to do in most cases since you don't want to be getting beat on for 6s while you're channeling.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.

The boots are garbage.

A mob being perma-feared is not ideal in an area like Sebilis. You don't want the mob running through the entire zone, getting adds lol. That is why you use your low duration fear and run the mob back to an area without mobs.

I've got video evidence and math proving you wrong. You clearly didn't watch the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI_IJ_F1GCY&t=325s . Please stop spreading misinformation because you don't understand how to use Blood Ember Clickies, or how to fear kite in tight spaces.

[Jimjam]

You're not missing out. The boots are absolute garbage.

If anyone has these garbage BE boots on blue i’ll take them off your hands for 600pp :)

[Toxigen]

erudite > human > troll > rest

this man fashionquests

[Snaggles]

The only time boots and gloves make sense for solo work is if you are clicking while your pet does all the work. I guess there is a situation for that but it’s a bit silly.

I can see the gloves being nice to have in a non-clarity group or a free click to delay a pull (I carry mine but don’t wear them). The legs bother me because the FD is so slow. Outside droga or taking preemptive AFK’s is rather burn mana than wait three seconds.

All the BE armor looks cool. I just wish it had stats. The legs are passable, the BP isn’t.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The only time boots and gloves make sense for solo work is if you are clicking while your pet does all the work. I guess there is a situation for that but it’s a bit silly.

I can see the gloves being nice to have in a non-clarity group or a free click to delay a pull (I carry mine but don’t wear them). The legs bother me because the FD is so slow. Outside droga or taking preemptive AFK’s is rather burn mana than wait three seconds.

All the BE armor looks cool. I just wish it had stats. The legs are passable, the BP isn’t.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI_IJ_F1GCY&t=325s - Here is a scenario where you can use Blood Ember Boots/Gauntlets for solo work to save mana. Blood Ember usage isn't exclusive to scenarios where you are just letting your DoT's + Pet do all the work. I started the fight with the Froglok Jin Wizard at 91% HP and 75% Mana. I ended the fight with 87% HP and 82% Mana. Using Blood Ember Clickies and FT1 + FT2 items, I recovered 7% mana during the fight, at the cost of 4% HP. As a Troll with 2x AoB Items, Racial Regen, and Epic, a 4% HP loss is quickly recovered without sitting.

When you have good AC, Resists, Epic, Fungi, etc., you can take damage via casting Blood Ember Clickies to prevent mana loss. This is because you recover HP faster than mana.

FD pants are amazing, even with a 3 second cast. Being able to save 60 or 120 mana per cast in any non-life threatening scenario is great. It's also good when you have multiple casters in a pull. In those scenarios you may need to FD multiple times due to unlucky casts triggering when you flop.

[Duik]

Have BIS velious ft items and your freebie kunark clickes totes become worth it.
Simples.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Have BIS velious ft items and your freebie kunark clickes totes become worth it.
Simples.

I used Blood Ember Boots/Gauntlets to great effect before I got much of my better gear when I was lower level. Before I got the BE Greaves and FT items. Blood Ember Boots/Gauntlets worked great when I was killing trash around KC in Dreadlands. That is another place where you don't want a mob to be perma-feared, as they can run back into the areas where mobs wander, giving you adds.

Players do get better gear as they play their character more. Greenmist will be replaced eventually by better weapons. Blood Ember Gauntlets/Boots/Greaves have no superior alternative that Iksars can use when/if they start acquiring raid gear.

[Toxigen]

Have BIS velious ft items and your freebie kunark clickes totes become worth it.
Simples.

if anything the clickies are even better when you have no FT1 and 2

im with dsm on this one...for solo / weird duos with no mana regen you need all the mana savings you can get

moar mana moar gud

[Snaggles]

I went from rarely using my BE gaunts to never using them once I got a Soul Defiler. Easier said than done but as a general practice just potg will keep up with casting tank spells. If it won’t, it’s because you are fighting something with a 0-second or CH chain targeted on you. In that case, the clerics will go OOM before you will.

Theorycrafting is fun. Nice to have the option of a free click when your mana is struggling. Likewise a Greenmist is a good tanking weapon, especially with the nerf to DC. An AC, STR, lifetap dot would be a fever dream weapon for any warrior…

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I went from rarely using my BE gaunts to never using them once I got a Soul Defiler. Easier said than done but as a general practice just potg will keep up with casting tank spells. If it won’t, it’s because you are fighting something with a 0-second or CH chain targeted on you. In that case, the clerics will go OOM before you will.

Theorycrafting is fun. Nice to have the option of a free click when your mana is struggling. Likewise a Greenmist is a good tanking weapon, especially with the nerf to DC. An AC, STR, lifetap dot would be a fever dream weapon for any warrior…

I agree that Soul Defiler is a big help to solve mana problems. But it is a tough item to get. It's a rare drop and usually goes for a large amount of DKP, even in top guilds.

Greenmist would be awesome on a Warrior, but the same could be said for many 1h knight weapons. They have a higher than average ratio to make up for low knight damage.

Since Greenmist can't be used on a Warrior, and this is a Shadowknight thread, we need to discuss the merits of Greenmist vs. Blood Ember in the context of a Shadowknight.

Once you are in a position to acquire a Soul Defiler, you can also get an Axe of Resistance or Silver Whip of Rage if you want a high MR 1 handed weapon. So high MR isn't really an argument for Greenmist, especially since Shadowknights don't need procs to maintain agro. Stacking Greenmist and Epic is not worth it either when you look at the math, except in the luckiest of cases where you can proc both within 6 seconds.

I'd rather have BE Greaves and a Silver Whip of Rage/Axe of Reaistance/Vulak Axe over Greenmist. Sadly Greenmist is replaceable by raid gear. Blood Ember Gear cannot be replaced.

[Snaggles]

People who use DW class weapons for knights are ridiculous. 1/1 or better 1h’s do mediocre damage. I can’t imagine doing less and paying big dkp for a silver whip of rage. The proc isnt any aggro, the GM is substantial. Also…if you are using that kind of weapon you are throwing all melee aggro out the door. Which isn’t that important but you shouldn’t forfeit it completely.

Getting a soul defiler is no harder than a silver whip. Vyemm is actually hard and it’s a multi-class weapon. An Axe of Resistance makes for a fun resist screenshot but you wouldn’t catch me dead using it.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

People who use DW class weapons for knights are ridiculous. 1/1 or better 1h’s do mediocre damage. I can’t imagine doing less and paying big dkp for a silver whip of rage. The proc isnt any aggro, the GM is substantial. Also…if you are using that kind of weapon you are throwing all melee aggro out the door. Which isn’t that important but you shouldn’t forfeit it completely.

Getting a soul defiler is no harder than a silver whip. Vyemm is actually hard and it’s a multi-class weapon. An Axe of Resistance makes for a fun resist screenshot but you wouldn’t catch me dead using it.

1. A Knight's job is tanking, not DPS. Greenmist's DPS isn't great either compared to other knight 1h weapons like Frostwrath or Soul Defiler. Greenmist has a 0.81 ratio, Frostwrath has a 1.09 ratio. You are already sacrificing 0.28 ratio, so I am not sure why you think you are doing great damage with Greenmist.

2. Silver Whip of Rage generates more white damage agro than Greenmist because it is faster. The Rune Proc will save you more HP than Greenmist, especially if you proc multiple times within a minute. Greenmist is capped to 300 HP/Minute saved due to it's DoT nature, regardless of proc amount. Silver Whip of Rage could save you 600 HP if you happened to proc 4 times in a minute.

3. Knights don't need weapon procs to maintain agro. I am not sure why you keep thinking Greenmist is going to significantly change how often the mob flips if you are playing your Shadowknight correctly. I don't see any guild using Greenmists for specific content due to difficulty of maintaining agro.

4. When it comes to getting Soul Defiler in a guild, my point is that Soul Defiler is not a trivial low DKP knight item that is easy to get. It's a rare drop, and I've seen Soul Defiler go for 800 DKP in a top raiding guild multiple times. If you can get Soul Defiler, you can get other raid weapons that will outclass Greenmist like Axe of Resistance, Silver Whip of Rage, or Vulak Axe. There simply isn't anything good enough about Greenmist that would make it preferable to Axe of Resistance, Silver Whip of Rage, or Vulak Axe for players who want a 1h weapon that fulfills a similar role to Greenmist.

[Snaggles]

Im not talking dps, im talking aggro. Specifically melee swing aggro based on the most a weapon can do per round. If you are chain casting spells the whip and a 1h will cycle about the same amount of times, less threat per swing though and less aggro on the whip. A proc is at least 400 hate and if it goes off is worth a couple swings. Outside this…the ratio on the GM is better, it has mana, str, and Dex. It’s free and is good enough to tank without buying anything. So its like an extra 400+ dkp.

See above.

Nothing is going to flip if a SK is burning their mana on aggro spells. There is no guild-specific strategy using Greenmist just like there is no ogre (outside tunare) or blood ember strat. These are all silly things.

I like how you casually lump the Vulax in with all the rest. In terms of difficulty on blue there are more guilds that can consistently kill Yeli than Vyemm. There is only one guild that gets Vulak outside the draft. Our guild has SD’s go for less than Whips since it’s a solid rogue offhand, ranger primary, and warriors who like a mitigation setup.

The axe of resistance sucks.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nothing is going to flip if a SK is burning their mana on aggro spells. There is no guild-specific strategy using Greenmist.


Indeed. There are better weapons than Greenmist you can acquire via raiding, which means Greenmist will eventually be permanently bagged/banked/destroyed.


The axe of resistance sucks.

Incorrect. Axe of Resistance has more AC, 20 FR, and 20 CR over Greenmist. It's a better item than Greenmist if you need to boost Resists and AC. As you admitted above, you don't need Greenmist's agro proc.


I like how you casually lump the Vulax in with all the rest.

You casually dropped Soul Defiler, as if it isn't going for large sums of DKP too. If you can save up for a Soul Defiler, you are not generally speaking a casual raider.

=======================

Blood Ember on the other hand will never be replaced with future raid gear, as there is no equivalent. Blood Ember Greaves are going to be used more than a permentally bagged/banked/destroyed weapon that has been replaced by better items.

[Snaggles]

Edit: it seems I paid more for my whip than anyone else. Average whip is about 2/3rds average SD.

Not sure how this all got sidetracked. We were talking mana regen. The SD is useful tool for any SK. The GM and BE is less useful. Even prior to the SD I had my BE gaunts bagged 95% the time. This not a game breaker or maker, or is anything…I’d rather quest a cool sword though to use for tanking than use BE gaunts.

The amount of mana regen you need in a group to not miss BE gaunts at all is like POTG or C1. You can down rank to Clinging and might. Casting it anyways.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Edit: it seems I paid more for my whip than anyone else. Average whip is about 2/3rds average SD.

Not sure how this all got sidetracked. We were mana regen. The SD is useful tool for any SK. The GM and BE is less useful. Even prior to the SD I had my BE gaunts bagged 95% the time. This not a game breaker or maker, or is anything…I’d rather quest a cool sword though to use for tanking than use BE gaunts.

It's perfectly fine if you prefer to not use Blood Ember Clickies, or prefer to use Greenmist. Whatever makes your experience more fun!

This preference doesn't change that Blood Ember is more useful than Greenmist overall from an objective viewpoint. Blood Ember Greaves/Gauntlets/Boots can be used at all levels from 45-60, regardless of gear level to save mana. Greenmist will eventually be replaced by better weapons.

[Snaggles]

Nothing is objective on page 48 of a SK race thread. Hope that helps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Nothing is objective on page 48 of a SK race thread. Hope that helps.

Shadowknights cannot pass level 60 on P99.

Blood Ember Clickies will not be replaced by other raid gear that has better stats but the same click effects on P99.

Blood Ember Clickies save mana on P99.

Greenmist will eventually be replaced by better weapons if you can get them via raiding on P99.

These are all objective truths.

[greatdane]

Greenmist isn't anything special for players who can raid. For casuals who never raid, it's pretty nice, but still not even the best 1h ratio. Two tradeable weapons have a better ratio. They just don't have any stats. Still, Greenmist isn't anything more than a decent and vaguely inonic item. At the end of the day, as much as weapon ratio doesn't matter that much for a hybrid tank, nor does it make a world of difference if you have a little more resists. In grouping or soloing, killing a mob slightly faster will often result in the same amount of "damage avoided" as higher resists, because resists do literally nothing whatsoever against non-caster mobs which make up the vast majority of what you'd be fighting solo or in groups. And if you raid, Greenmist should not be your end-station goal anyway. For that reason, it's not a gamechanger for anybody. If you raid, there are much better weapons. If you don't raid, are you really fighting so many fucking caster mobs that the resists truly make a difference? Come on.

Mind you, MDS tends to cost more than a casual player can really justify spending on a weapon as an SK, and Shard of Night looks so dumb that I'm prepared to disqualify it on that basis alone. You've got your fear-themed tank in scary plate armor with skulls and shit, and then you run around poking at things with this absurdly tiny dagger. Nobody will respect you. Everyone who sees you that way will be thinking, "okay, the weapon is good, but my god does he look like an absolute cunt."

So on that basis, I suppose Greenmist is the most stylish 1h weapon available to non-raiders. It does show that you have some pizzazz. Well, it makes you look like a bloody mall ninja, but this is P99 and anyone who claims to be socially suave is full of shit because we're all nerds of the highest order.

Also, ogre is the best race unless you're playing SSF.

[Duik]

He is just ensuring that newbies can get the factual facts.
Good information is paramount in this instance.

Not everyone will get BE. Not everyone will get Greenmist. Not everyone will get epic or BIS anything.
But the general concensus here is because most of us are no life, diehard, neckbeards that know every strat (and 'sploit) that top tier gear is a given. It is just the amount of gear that varies.
Sorta makes "newbs need le good info" a bit redundant.

[real_sauga_yoot]

Also, ogre is the best race unless you're playing SSF.

This i agree with 100%. Personally i just didn't want to play a fatty this time. But FSI is the best racial for an SK hands down.

[Snaggles]

This i agree with 100%. Personally i just didn't want to play a fatty this time. But FSI is the best racial for an SK hands down.

Same, just didn’t want to deal with an ogre this time. Bash immunity doing FD splitting is gold.

[Keebz]

The only times I wish I had FSI is when I would tank draco/golems in fear. Those mobs actually stun you and there's lots of haphazard push going on, which makes positioning loose. No idea what you people are talking about with FSI for splitting. Splitting does not involve face tanking at all and if you're splitting blues 1) those mobs do not stun you and 2) taking an extra round of melee from a blue is a non-issue.

[Stonewallx39]

Sometimes I wonder what the NSA thinks when they go through analytics and see us reading and posting on these “class discussion” forums about race…

[Duik]

NSA "players" are too busy raiding city leaders for "+ intelligence" drops.

[Troxx]

The presence or absence of blood ember gear would not factor into my selection of race for SK.

[Tnair]

Sometimes I wonder what the NSA thinks when they go through analytics and see us reading and posting on these “class discussion” forums about race…

"low risk but possible continued source of domestic terrorism. maintain automated filter for flagged phrases, no need for direct oversight indicated at this time. our resources are needed for watching tik tok."

[greatdane]

No idea what you people are talking about with FSI for splitting. Splitting does not involve face tanking at all and if you're splitting blues 1) those mobs do not stun you and 2) taking an extra round of melee from a blue is a non-issue.

Splitting can often require facetanking briefly, depending on the nature of the pull. Not all pulls have enough space to start from max range. In indoor zones without SoW/jboots, you can't gain distance from mobs that are already on you--and in dungeons with many shaman mobs, most mobs will have SoW (and sometimes haste as well) if they've been up long enough for a split pull to be necessary. A failed FD in particular literally guarantees that you will be facetanking multiple mobs on the second attempt.

What do you mean, blue mobs don't stun you? Like 80% of mobs in the game have bash. Blue mobs absolutely can stun you. They might miss their bashes, but they might not.

In cases where you're split-pulling and don't have the space to do it without mobs reaching you at all, you're not taking one extra melee round from a blue. By definition, you're pulling more than one mob. If you get stunned, you're taking a minimum of two rounds (and possibly more if they're hasted) from each mob before you get off a second cast of FD. Like, that's just a mathematical fact. If you get bash-stunned in the first round, you will take at least one more round from every mob before it's mechanically possible for you to have cast FD again.

Not sure what people get out of inventing these completely imaginary scenarios where somehow bash never stuns regardless of race. It's self-evidently not true.

[Keebz]

I'm not going to respond to your contrived scenario, but


What do you mean, blue mobs don't stun you? Like 80% of mobs in the game have bash. Blue mobs absolutely can stun you. They might miss their bashes, but they might not.

Maybe DSM can give you the normal distribution of a mobs bash stun chance over a fight.

[greatdane]

Mine is not a "contrived scenario." Anytime you get bash-stunned by a mob (as a non-ogre, obviously) and follow it up with a cast of FD/DP, you are literally guaranteed to take at least one more round of melee. From every mob that is currently aggroed onto you, which - if you were split-pulling - by definition means more than one mob. There is never going to be a scenario where the pull reaches you, bash-stuns you, and somehow doesn't get to swing again before you have sat through the stun duration and the cast time of FD/DP. That is a mathematical impossibility, unless those mobs are affected by a slow from some very recent previous encounter (please don't go there, you can't be that dumb).

If you can somehow contrive to believe that this is never meaningful in any way, I suppose you're welcome to live in the fantasy reality that you've concocted, but it takes a special level of idiocy to claim that it's somehow just not something that ever matters. While mobs certainly don't land all of their bashes on a tank class, they land enough to where it's noticeable if you're a non-ogre, especially when multiple mobs reach you and every one of them bashes. After all, you're never FD-pulling one mob. It is by definition multiple.

If a blue mob has a 20% chance to actually land a succesful bash-stun on you, what about when there's three or four? But if you wish to draw your conclusion off the assumption that you are, for some bizarre reason, FD-pulling a single mob, you're welcome to live in the world of the deeply irrational.

And most importantly, when would any other racial ability have given you a better chance of success than FSI? Keep in mind that you're the one who specifically pinpointed FD-pulling, so please don't reel it back to something truly inane like "uh, if I had 5% more maximum mana pool..." You tracked this discussion directly into the specific topic of FD-pulling and made the claim that FSI is literally never even relevant because, according to you... blue mobs cannot stun with bash? That is absolutely moronic, not to mention - even if we briefly pretend it were true (it isn't!) - would only be relevant to blue mobs. Can I please pick your argument further apart? It's fun.

Granted, not every bash is a guaranteed stun (unlike the original implementation from years ago), but it is the most common outcome of a bash. If you get bashed, more often than not, it will stun you. Less commonly, it will interrupt your casting even if it doesn't stun you. That's less likely. It happens, but the stun itself has a higher probability. Ogres are immune to that. When facetanking multiple mobs - as will literally always be the case when you're trying to FD-split a multimob pull where you didn't have room to simply feign before they reach you at all (because you're never fucking splitting a single-pull) - the odds of avoiding interruption from a bash are quite high if you have FSI.

[greatdane]

In my experience, I would loosely napkin-math it at approximately a 75% chance that a successful bash stuns you (if you're not an ogre) and a 25% chance that a non-raidboss (and not red-con) mob lands its bash on you if you're at the AC softcap. If you've got three mobs connecting with you as you cast a spell, all of which immediately bash, that's ~50% chance that one of them will in fact land a stunning bash on you. While the numbers are guesstimates, I don't think they're far from the truth. Some of the time, a bash will interrupt whether or not it stuns you, but that's comparatively uncommon. By far the most likely outcome is a simple stun, and ogres ignore every one of those for all their lives.

Anyone who says that has no value is out of their mind.

[Snaggles]

It’s not contrived. Typically the first thing a melee NPC is blow its cooldown skill (bash). One blue bashing a quick casting skill is a very low chance, but three makes it more possible. If splitting a pack without sow your lead won’t be far ahead of then, they will try to bash you once in range and during your cast.

Does any of this result in more deaths or justify playing an ogre? I doubt it and not for me. I do think it’s by far the best argument for bash-immunity one can make.

[Toxigen]

50 pages to arrive at "it doesnt matter play what you think looks cool"

[Troxx]

50 pages to arrive at "it doesnt matter play what you think looks cool"

[DeathsSilkyMist]

50 pages to arrive at "it doesnt matter play what you think looks cool"

That is the default and lazy answer people always give, but it doesn't answer OP's question. If people wanted the default and lazy answer, they wouldn't make a new thread asking a question. They already have the answer. We could just shut down the forums and have a splash screen that says: "Just do what you think is cool".

To answer OP's question:

Is Iksar SK worse for end-game solo crawling than other races?
Do the armor clickies account for serious mana saving etc?

Blood Ember will help with solo dungeon crawling. This is due to how much mana it saves you. Mana is the bottleneck of an SK typically speaking when soloing. Here is an example of me using Blood Ember Boots/Gauntlets in Sebilis: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3677750&postcount=468

If you are worried about itemization based on race, I would advise against picking Iksar for the Shadowknight class. Greenmist is not as good as Blood Ember factually speaking. Greenmist will be replaced eventually. You can pick Troll and get Racial Regen + Blood Ember if you want both. Otherwise any other race will work fine. You can get a Fungi Tunic/Iksar BP to make up for lack of Racial Regen. For the first 50 levels, a character with Iksar BP is regenerating faster than a Troll/Iksar without one.

[Sizar]

Mana is the bottleneck of an SK

This more than anything is the what OP needs/needed to consider if solo dungeon crawling

[Cecily]

50 pages to arrive at "it doesnt matter play what you think looks cool"
I think Dark Elf SKs look cool. Does anyone else think Dark Elf Sks look cool?