1 Guise in 24 hours? no manastone in 32 Hours

[Tierilo]

Classic or not, with the list system people are having to camp these places for 20+ hours straight with little to no way to take a break. That's just dangerous.

I've seen people suggest in other thread that maybe we use some kind of token system or something so that even if u quit your 20 hour session, it wasn't all for nothing. I understand wanting people to have to work for these legacy items but they shouldn't have to endanger themselves to do it.

Maybe just have it so every time one of the named monsters is killed everyone in the killing group is awarded through an item summoned on to them, a no drop token (IE Token of the Assassin, Token of Eyes). 80 of these tokens (x4 20 stacks) can be handed to shady in EC for the item. The items no longer drop. That makes these camps a min 40 hour camp if the named spawned ever single time. You can break it up across play sessions. You still gotta work at it.

Nothing is worse than spending 12 hours helping other people then sitting on the list at number 1 for 12 more hours only for the item not to drop for 24 more hours.

[MasterCS]

Classic or not, with the list system people are having to camp these places for 20+ hours straight with little to no way to take a break. That's just dangerous.

This is where you don’t get it. People don’t HAVE to camp these items, they choose to knowing the time required. If they choose elf sim pixels over their own health, time with others, etc., that’s on them. Why are we always trying to protect people from themselves?

[sentinel]

It makes me sad so many people have so little going on in their life that they can effectively risk their health for pixels. I get some folks gave up on having a social life/responsibilities long ago, but christ, don't surrender your health so willingly.

[Dolalin]

Imagine being outraged at the randomness of the random number generator. Jesus wept.

[Crossbones]

This is where you don’t get it. People don’t HAVE to camp these items, they choose to knowing the time required. If they choose elf sim pixels over their own health, time with others, etc., that’s on them. Why are we always trying to protect people from themselves?

Couldn't have said it any better than that. If this system kills someone then that's on the someone. And they shall get a Darwin Award for their trouble.

[Tecmos Deception]

Imagine being outraged at the randomness of the random number generator. Jesus wept.

To be fair, the randomness of P99's RNG IS pretty fucking wonky.

[listur]

Imagine being outraged at the randomness of the random number generator. Jesus wept.

I think the issue for a lot of the people is that P1999 specifically lowered the drop rate of this item, didn't they?

[Wooted]

When you see 3 TBBs and 5+ daggers, but no common drop, then yes that is what people are complaining about(justified). Clearly, the drop rates are not true to classic.

[Tierilo]

Yeah, when supplier rotting bags but 1 mask has dropped...

[enjchanter]

i wish vulak dropped a token of the robe
id surely have enough for one by now

[Tierilo]

So tired of hearing its classic for thing that are terrible and then turning around in the same breath and getting kicked with thing like quest exp nerfs...

[sentinel]

Or linked items, or shaman pets, etc

Selectively classic

[waltjig]

Or linked items, or shaman pets, etc

Selectively classic

You know you don’t have to play, right?

[turbosilk]

The time people spend camping could be spend farming plat to just buy the manastone. Problem solved.

Socialize, make friends, have them help you. Problem solved.

[u_lock]

Random is random. People seem to forget that.

I camped both Manastone and Guise. It's most definitely unhealthy to do in a single sitting. Most people have friends or brothers play their character while they're sleeping, etc. I've seen 3 people get removed from lists because they eventually fell asleep and missed an AFK check.

I've seen no manastone drop in 30 hours (dude waited over 50 hours for his stone). I've also seen three drop in 14 hours.

Random is random.

[vossiewulf]

The time people spend camping could be spend farming plat to just buy the manastone. Problem solved.

That's mostly what I have done. Group, do something interesting that makes money, give it to someone who is willing to undergo torture by RPG for more plat.

[sentinel]

You know you don’t have to play, right?

Of course. And I appreciate that the devs put their free time into something for all of us to enjoy. Rumors of RMT aside that is.

I'm just pointing out it is silly to use "it's classic" as a reason for something when so many things aren't classic. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy or appreciate p99.

[fadetree]

To be fair, the randomness of P99's RNG IS pretty fucking wonky.

Yep. Specifically, it is globally random but not very random locally, meaning that it's randomness has a very coarse ganularity - for a small sample size you will generally get a much lower randomicity than you will for a large one. What this means in our terms is that there can be much more streakiness than you would expect from a smoother stochastic function. Meaning 'suck it, expect long stretches of absurdly bad randomness'. I don't know if this is because of the algorithm they use, or if the entropy gathering is bad....but some of it probably comes from compressing a random range into a 'fail/succeed' binary. We never see the underlying range or the set of fail rolls vs. the set of success rolls, so it looks super streaky to us.
I am also suspicious about the pattern I usually see when TS-ing - set of 10-15 fails followed by a set of 3-5 successes. This pattern goes on a lot and it implies that there is somethign else going on underneath that has some kind of internal state.
And yeah, I don't get why people want these items so badly. Seems nuts to me, I don't think they are particularly useful enough to justify.

[CalypsoDG]

This is where you don’t get it. People don’t HAVE to camp these items, they choose to knowing the time required. If they choose elf sim pixels over their own health, time with others, etc., that’s on them. Why are we always trying to protect people from themselves?

preach

if you wanna die for free pixels then rip

[Xeddzul]

no one camped anything for 20 hours in 1999 they just played a few hours and hoped to get lucky.

Not true. I can't say it was '99 as it may have been '00 but I certainly did a few 36+ hour camps...

[Enme]

Where is the post updating 4 guises dropped in 4 hours? Oh wait that’s not bitching

[Isomorphic]

To be fair, the randomness of P99's RNG IS pretty fucking wonky.

Evidence?

[aaezil]

P99 still uses an old crappy algorithmic psuedorandom number generator not a newfangled good PRNG that looks at external data to create the numbers.

The “pattern” of the p99 prng is indeed streaky and bad has been known for a long time.

[Grimgor]

The problem with this list system is it removes people's ability to camp something a little bit at a time over a long period of time and eventually get one.

It forces you to stay at the camp for days in a row. I'm simply not willing to do that.

[Tecmos Deception]

Evidence?

It's everywhere. There are simply too many streaks in all sorts of p99 activities given overall rates. I posted on resist streakiness a month or so ago with data if you care to dig a little, but I'm too lazy to provide the link.

Just a rough example for illustration: if p99 rng controlled coin flips, over the course of 10000 flips you'd see about 5000 heads and about 5000 tails. But you'd probably have 50 streaks of 10 instead of the 10 you should have seen based on 50/50 chances of heads vs tails.

[listur]

So who's going to "/rand 1" 10k times and post the results?

[PabloEdvardo]

The problem with this list system is it removes people's ability to camp something a little bit at a time over a long period of time and eventually get one.

It forces you to stay at the camp for days in a row. I'm simply not willing to do that.

That's not even close to true, and quite the opposite.

With the streakiness of the drops, you are actually better off camping it with more cumulative hours, but spread over a greater amount of time.

e.g. if you camp at manastone, log in regularly throughout the week, play for say 4-6 hour shifts, you can eventually (statistically) get lucky where multiple will drop in the same 4-6 hour period, and you can get one.

It's the wanting to get the drop the same time / only time you /list that leads to 30+ hour camps.

[skorge]

How the make the server better:


When the assassin spawns with a guise, it should drop 6 guises.

Manastone should be set to no-drop.

Rubi BP camp needs it's drop rate increased.

[Isomorphic]

It's everywhere. There are simply too many streaks in all sorts of p99 activities given overall rates. I posted on resist streakiness a month or so ago with data if you care to dig a little, but I'm too lazy to provide the link.

Just a rough example for illustration: if p99 rng controlled coin flips, over the course of 10000 flips you'd see about 5000 heads and about 5000 tails. But you'd probably have 50 streaks of 10 instead of the 10 you should have seen based on 50/50 chances of heads vs tails.

Are you saying that in 10000 coin fips the expected value of the number of times you get heads 10 times in a row is 10 but in EQ you will see 50? If so I have a few questions, are you only considering heads or does 10 tails count as one of these streaks. If we get 11 heads in a row does that count as 2 streaks of 10, counting 1-10 and 2-11. What is the variance of this expected value? How are you determining the expected value of this event in the first place?

[Frostback]

No you didnt

dial up did not even allow anyone to spend more then 45 mins or an hour doing anything

"I spent 20 hours on Memorial Day weekend 1999 praying to Marr that Najena would appear only to slay elemental after elemental. I got the robe…and then promptly quit playing the game for the majority of the summer. I was burned out.

One weekend I camped the Ancient Cyclops spawn for 24 straight hours. In that time, he appeared once, after 7 hours. It wasn’t my turn to loot. I waited 17 more hours and never saw him again in that time. Powerful as Nenelar is, soloing the Cyclops placeholder for most of that time, I left exhausted and empty-handed.

The next weekend I camped the Arch Ghoul Magi for 20 straight hours. In that time the Magi appeared 8 times, dropping the Shining Metallic Robe twice. I was number 6 on the original loot order. Two ahead of me got their robes while the others gave up early. I camped at the top of the order for 12 hours only seeing the Magi only twice. On both occasions he had only silversilk leggings…not the robe."

https://web.archive.org/web/20001010030338/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/030200_life_after_50.html

[Nirgon]

I like to live dangerously

[jackd104]

The problem with this list system is it removes people's ability to camp something a little bit at a time over a long period of time and eventually get one.

It forces you to stay at the camp for days in a row. I'm simply not willing to do that.

An excellent summary of the key problem with the list system.

[vossiewulf]

No you didnt

dial up did not even allow anyone to spend more then 45 mins or an hour doing anything

Maybe where you live, but I was playing multiplayer games for hours on end in 1991.

[Jabaniz]

It sucks, no doubting that. I think this commitment does separate top tier players from us regular players.

Think of this though, fungi camp for 7 hours, fungi drops you roll.....guy that showed up half hour before wins?!?! At least with /list if you put in time, you are guaranteed the item?

I agree, I may not have the time to do a lot of these camps either, but when or if I do decide I want the item, I have the choice of either putting in the camp time, or putting in the time to farm enough plat to get item.

Drop Rates always suck unless its a fast drop rate haha

[DMN]

It sucks, no doubting that. I think this commitment does separate top tier players from us regular players.

Think of this though, fungi camp for 7 hours, fungi drops you roll.....guy that showed up half hour before wins?!?! At least with /list if you put in time, you are guaranteed the item?

I agree, I may not have the time to do a lot of these camps either, but when or if I do decide I want the item, I have the choice of either putting in the camp time, or putting in the time to farm enough plat to get item.

Drop Rates always suck unless its a fast drop rate haha


We used to use an interesting method sometimes back in the day.

Let's say bob, mike and bill are grouping. At the beginning of their camping session they all roll 1-100.

Mike is highest
Bob second
Bill last

Now whenever any item drops, mike can burn up his spot to automatically get the item, then bob moves to the top and mike goes back to the bottom, pushing bill to second. if another player joins they go to the bottom of the list. if no one wants to burn up their automatic loot spot, the item is randomed.

[White_knight]

LOL.

35 year old, white males, living in 1st world countries complaining about not getting a clicky illusion item in a 20 year old emulated game on a 600-700 pop server.

TEEHEE.

[DMN]

LOL.

35 year old, white males, living in 1st world countries complaining about not getting a clicky illusion item in a 20 year old emulated game on a 600-700 pop server.

TEEHEE.

As 30+ year old adults, how do you find time to sit at your PC for 50+ hrs straight.

SHIT IS SICK BROS

30- 35 year old male looking to buy virtual dolls.

HMMMMMKAY


Those are just 3 posts of your last 10. Me thinks you've got some issues of your own, son. And caps lock was only cruise control for cool back in 99.

[Jabaniz]

Those are just 3 posts of your last 10. Me thinks you've got some issues of your own, son. And caps lock was only cruise control for cool back in 99.

PWNED!!!

DMN,

I think remember doing this from time to time, I personally didn't mind this unless I was the guy showing up 5 hours later haha.

It just shows there are many ways to run a camp, and I think P99 staff came up with a certain way to control a few of the ultra-rare items, and out of all the different ways this was for good or bad, at least it was decided and not left to player interpretation.

Its fair, and its the way it is..again, I'm not the biggest fan, and i have already spent some time without results, but at least when i do fully commit i will get the item.

[Natewest1987]

This is where you don’t get it. People don’t HAVE to camp these items, they choose to knowing the time required. If they choose elf sim pixels over their own health, time with others, etc., that’s on them. Why are we always trying to protect people from themselves?

You’re only saying this because you’re one of the few that...

[Natewest1987]

That's not even close to true, and quite the opposite.

With the streakiness of the drops, you are actually better off camping it with more cumulative hours, but spread over a greater amount of time.

e.g. if you camp at manastone, log in regularly throughout the week, play for say 4-6 hour shifts, you can eventually (statistically) get lucky where multiple will drop in the same 4-6 hour period, and you can get one.

It's the wanting to get the drop the same time / only time you /list that leads to 30+ hour camps.

Have not ever heard of anyone getting mana stone in this way on these servers

[bubur]

i came in at spot #2 for manastone and got both drops in about 5 hrs. ppl after me complained it took a day. i kinda dont believe them tho cuz ppl exaggerate

for guise i started at #3 at around 7pm, got all 3 including mine by about 5am the next morning

now that those are done i have no reason to log in until td pots. cherish the grind. hope this helps

[White_knight]

Those are just 3 posts of your last 10. Me thinks you've got some issues of your own, son. And caps lock was only cruise control for cool back in 99.

Lol, thanks for reading my post history to try claw something together.

3/10 for effort.

Dont forget to alt tab back to tap your toon foward so you dont go afk as your eyes are bleating after the 30th hour straight of standing in line for a pixel camp on a 20 year old emulated server as a 35 year old white male.

[Tecmos Deception]

Are you saying that in 10000 coin fips the expected value of the number of times you get heads 10 times in a row is 10 but in EQ you will see 50? If so I have a few questions, are you only considering heads or does 10 tails count as one of these streaks. If we get 11 heads in a row does that count as 2 streaks of 10, counting 1-10 and 2-11. What is the variance of this expected value? How are you determining the expected value of this event in the first place?

I called it a rough example for a reason. You did goad me into using Google for 8 seconds to find the thread i mentioned earlier, though:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341531

[Canelek]

The lack of empathy for fellow humans here is truly astounding.

[Smellybuttface]

The lack of empathy for fellow humans here is truly astounding.

Lack of empathy? They’re choosing to camp it, no one is forcing them to. I don’t know why this point has to be brought up repeatedly. We even know the drop tables are “unclassic,” so people knowingly are in for between 30-50hr real-world waits. At what point are we supposed to be empathetic?

[Pretzelle]

Lack of empathy? They’re choosing to camp it, no one is forcing them to. I don’t know why this point has to be brought up repeatedly. We even know the drop tables are “unclassic,” so people knowingly are in for between 30-50hr real-world waits. At what point are we supposed to be empathetic?
Addiction is a mental illness. Stop looking at this like it's just a game. It's a digital nostalgia fix for all of us.

[kotton05]

Just looted a guise on a pvp server after training and killing the group that was there. Best part was I said they should of /listed felt good.

[DMN]

Lol, thanks for reading my post history to try claw something together.

3/10 for effort.

Dont forget to alt tab back to tap your toon foward so you dont go afk as your eyes are bleating after the 30th hour straight of standing in line for a pixel camp on a 20 year old emulated server as a 35 year old white male.

Read your last 10 posts if you want to actually know what low effort is.

IRONY.

[Teppler]

Good shit tecmos. I’ve played this game a very long time and I’ve seen enough to make me firmly believe the algorithms aren’t as straight forward as most people think. And I think that’s wild too that we are still figuring this out.

I’ve just seen way too many cases of strange streaks. The first few times you can make the argument that it’s just random it works out this way but over time you just see these low probable streaks pop up more and more in a way that makes you think. I could tell some stories too. Like 3 rounds of crypt producing 3 torpors. Or 3 sebilite protectors in a row dropping torp and then 4 out of 5 and then don’t see it again for months.

[abbud]

I put on my robe and tin foil hat.

[zodium]

The lack of empathy for fellow humans here is truly astounding.

welcome to the community

[Finesteel]

Solution: Don’t camp a manastone. There weren’t many manastoneson on live or Blue for that matter since not many people played that early. Both live and Blue progressed through the content just fine. You don’t need a manastone to be good at Everquest. It’s not a requirement.

[DMN]

Solution: Don’t camp a manastone. There weren’t many manastoneson on live or Blue for that matter since not many people played that early. Both live and Blue progressed through the content just fine. You don’t need a manastone to be good at Everquest. It’s not a requirement.

There were shitloads of manastones on fenin. I had at least two handmade backpacks full of manastones. Even before the "general population" realized how useful manastones were, the EE was perma camped because everyone wanted a bag for themselves and their alts. And since the stone is neither nodrop nor lore, they still illed up in peoples banks. Not to mention the drops rate should be closer to 40:60, not like the 10:90 it is on greal.

There were "newer" servers who only had a couple months of manstones, and at least a month or two of those months they had arbitrarily reduced the drop rate to the manastone to very low.

[Magerin]

I say to make the manastone camp healthier is to make a zone wide drop from 35 or 36+ level mobs only. This way people have to actively camp the zone / items to earn a chance at the manastone. Along with this fix it update, you make the Manastone notrade until its removed from the game via the time line and make it trade-able again. it would make guk on perma farm status again.

[enjchanter]

Just camp it or dont.

Everyone knows what they're signing up for by wanting a guise or manastone

Pay 300k for it in 3 years like the rest of us

[skorge]

Just camp it or dont.

Everyone knows what they're signing up for by wanting a guise or manastone

Pay 300k for it in 3 years like the rest of us

Someone is already trying to get 200k for one now.

[DMN]

Just camp it or dont.

Everyone knows what they're signing up for by wanting a guise or manastone

Pay 300k for it in 3 years like the rest of us

The problem is only people who abuse non classic account sharing are even allowed to get one in the first place. It should have been changed the first month or so when it was realized what a failure this list system is for the rarer legacy items... it works fine for the guise.

Non classic list
Non classic account sharing
All to supposedly ensure a small group of people can't control the spawn, except ironically it does the very same thing it's suppose to prevent while eschewing classicness all together.

[Obrae]

They messed the drop rate on p99 hard.

[Issar]

No you didnt

dial up did not even allow anyone to spend more then 45 mins or an hour doing anything

What? I lived in Vegas and my roommate and I had a cable modem. When we move back to Ca and went to University, we had a T1 line. These were things back then. I specifically remember camping items on rotation for days back then.

[Misek84]

They should atleast make the drop rate classic for each server. I really dont get why they would half the drop rate just cause they opened a second server(teal). In classic when they kept opening up new servers because the population kept growing, did they reduce the drop rates so that only a set amount of manastones would drop across all servers? No of course they didnt. It seems kind of wrong to punish the player base (by reducing drop rate) just because the games popularity was greater than expected resulting in a second server.