Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[kul69]

It's getting kind of ridiculous and sad seeing this happen again. Enchanters were not this OP in classic. Charm happened in classic and it broke within 10 seconds most of the time and that is why no one ever used it in groups regularly until almost PoP area where AAs made charm viable.

Why do we continue to pretend enchanters charming mobs to the extent and ease we see on P99 is classic?

[Seungkyu]

I'm not disagreeing or saying your wrong, but you need to back up your claim with facts.

[A1551]

u got any evidence besides "we all know?" This isn't flippant -- I'm sure if you could find some good evidence to show charms hold too well here the staff would be happy to nerf it and drink salty chanter tears (including my own). But what we all "know" from 20 years ago doesn't mean crap, these forums are littered with threads where people swear up and down about things and are then proven wrong.

[strawman]

Charm breaks within 10 seconds a lot of the time now, too

[worm4real]

I mean a good place to start would be look at the facts its current implementation are based on I guess.

[Morratiz]

https://www.oocities.org/xymarra/Strategy/EnchanterStrategy.html#charm

This is what you consider "facts" to back up your claims?

[oldhead]

I remember Enchanters doing impossible things in velious with charm. I never knew how they did it.. I just seen them soloing giants that nobody else could and not even some groups could handle.

Do not think it was that charm sucked back then more so most people did not understand the mechanics of it. Hell we all thought CHA was KING and -CHA was KING for undead charm (which would have been awesome if true)

Now we know.. level is king and mr is queen. Cha is a joke

I say this as a person who does not play an enchanter because of OP charm. I'd rather play a buffing messing enchanter that can take pee breaks when needed. So def am not bias.

[Swish]

https://www.oocities.org/xymarra/Strategy/EnchanterStrategy.html#charm

Do you know where we'd be if we took everything in the Ruins of Kunark Prima Strategy guide seriously? Let alone one player's opinion from 20 years ago.

It's evidence of someone's opinion, but have you got anything a bit more solid?

Further along in that article it recommends the use of theft of thought to remove an NPCs mana, but it doesn't say that doing this causes high threat levels. So from that, could I argue that ToT on P99 causes way too much aggro versus classic live servers? Surrreely they'd have mentioned it being a professional guide?

I could try, but I don't think I'd get anywhere :p

[Vexenu]

It's absolutely not classic. But there is a large segment of the playerbase on P1999 who will argue otherwise just because Charm allows them to get away with a LOT of stuff solo, duo or in small groups that would otherwise be impossible. And since these people just want their pixels they don't care if charm is not classic. Many of these same people seem to believe that everyone who played in the classic era was a complete idiot who didn't know what any of the spells did. This is their explanation for why charm wasn't exploited to such a degree back then: that people simply didn't realize how powerful it was. Or that they didn't have enough +CHA gear to take advantage of it. This is, of course, completely asinine. Charm simply did NOT work nearly as well back then, and neither did the Lull/Calm line of spells. EQ was being played extremely heavily by many, many thousands of players back then. These are the players who figured out how to do EVERY QUEST in the game, including all the Epics. They were NOT idiots who didn't understand what they were doing. They knew damn well what Charm could and could not do. And they knew it was more trouble than it was worth, because back in the day that's how it was coded.

[Swish]

Get some solid proof up and they'll change it I'm sure. My personal experience based on starting an enchanter in December 1999 on Prexus was one of wanting level 12 because another enchanter I met in Felwithe was telling me about charm and how good it was.

I got into the 20s, and found it easier to charm in groups because you could always rely on another mob being there whereas you could always run out of tiny daggers (1999/2000 logic). Plus it meant venturing to Highkeep to buy the spells.

[turbosilk]

When I've been with enchanters it's broken often enough that the healer is always oom so the enchanter stops charming mobs.

[bubur]

i also recall a lot of people charming mobs into buggy hilarity and using them to set loose the havoc of PoD on guards due to faction mattering for charmed pets or something. i guess thats kind of unrelated, but yeah, charming was .. different, if nothing else

it wasn't as widespread, but bards and necros could also fear kite things into corners and free xp. that must have been efficient, but no one told me bout it. it did happen though, even if a lot of us don't remember it.. charm may have been similar, may not. dont know for sure, needs citation

[Mercius]

watching the imp protector do half of naggys health on green was pretty laughable, that's how reliable charm is here

[Swish]

That's the thing. I think people think it was more broken because if you level an enchanter naked (or at least with no added +CHA gear) it's going to break a lot more.

I did this on red years ago as well on my first character and it was very dicey trying to charm anything within 1-2 levels of me and have it stick for a decent duration.

I think people see charm through the lens of their twinked blue enchanters with 200+ mana, not the struggling enchanter in rags that we have been on green so far.

[bwe]

It's absolutely not classic. But there is a large segment of the playerbase on P1999 who will argue otherwise just because Charm allows them to get away with a LOT of stuff solo, duo or in small groups that would otherwise be impossible. And since these people just want their pixels they don't care if charm is not classic. Many of these same people seem to believe that everyone who played in the classic era was a complete idiot who didn't know what any of the spells did. This is their explanation for why charm wasn't exploited to such a degree back then: that people simply didn't realize how powerful it was. Or that they didn't have enough +CHA gear to take advantage of it. This is, of course, completely asinine. Charm simply did NOT work nearly as well back then, and neither did the Lull/Calm line of spells. EQ was being played extremely heavily by many, many thousands of players back then. These are the players who figured out how to do EVERY QUEST in the game, including all the Epics. They were NOT idiots who didn't understand what they were doing. They knew damn well what Charm could and could not do. And they knew it was more trouble than it was worth, because back in the day that's how it was coded.

This

[DMN]

I think roots, lulls, and charms are all significantly better in p99 than in original. No proof though.

[Darkslide632]

The "Get some proof!" argument is exactly what he's talking about.

We all know it wasn't this good in 99, but "Get some proof!" rules the day.

[Morratiz]

But...why is there no proof....

[oldhead]

It's absolutely not classic. But there is a large segment of the playerbase on P1999 who will argue otherwise just because Charm allows them to get away with a LOT of stuff solo, duo or in small groups that would otherwise be impossible. And since these people just want their pixels they don't care if charm is not classic. Many of these same people seem to believe that everyone who played in the classic era was a complete idiot who didn't know what any of the spells did. This is their explanation for why charm wasn't exploited to such a degree back then: that people simply didn't realize how powerful it was. Or that they didn't have enough +CHA gear to take advantage of it. This is, of course, completely asinine. Charm simply did NOT work nearly as well back then, and neither did the Lull/Calm line of spells. EQ was being played extremely heavily by many, many thousands of players back then. These are the players who figured out how to do EVERY QUEST in the game, including all the Epics. They were NOT idiots who didn't understand what they were doing. They knew damn well what Charm could and could not do. And they knew it was more trouble than it was worth, because back in the day that's how it was coded.


So much passion, so much strawman tho.

I don't even think you are bullshitting. I think you believe what you say. However, find the evidence of the mechanics. Your opinion matters as much as mine = nothing. Memories from 20 years ago are not valid. Opinions from 20 years ago are not valid.

[Tethler]

The "Get some proof!" argument is exactly what he's talking about.

We all know it wasn't this good in 99, but "Get some proof!" rules the day.

It is what it is. Changing anything to something different will require devs to know that values of what things should be. It's just guessing otherwise, hence the requirement for proof.

It's like how many people know original Splitpaw dungeon was low level, but there aren't reliable records of mob levels, mob names, damage numbers, drops, etc., so they can't change it.

[bwe]

It seems like they should have undertuned it then made it more powerful when provided with proof instead of how it is here

[bwe]

My main on blue is an enchanter and it's super fun but not classic everquest

[Ligma]

Most people didn't know the importance of mob level or MR debuffs. And had shitty dial up internet. And didn't know about global cooldown reset.

Some people still used charm very effectively. Charm played a vital role for the first AOW kills.

It shouldn't be surprising that a few people can coordinate on discord to keep a charm mob under control.

[Mercius]

I like ENC and dont care if it stays broke but it's kinda inconsistent with the way mages are being handled

Why bully mages when enchanters can clear out areas faster than a full group can

[ArunaGreen]

Regardless of whether it was classic or not, to allow a single class such a massive amount of power is fucking moronic. Allowing a single class to literally charm a single mob with very little risk that can out dps an entire DPS dedicated group is so fucking dumb it's incredible. To refuse to change such a blatantly broken mechanic is just too stupid for words.

[bubur]

hey

calm down

if charm broke 2x or 3x as much we'd still use it for leveling, groups, and dragons. you can color shift mez and recharm. its just how it is now

[bwe]

Regardless of whether it was classic or not, to allow a single class such a massive amount of power is fucking moronic. Allowing a single class to literally charm a single mob with very little risk that can out dps an entire DPS dedicated group is so fucking dumb it's incredible. To refuse to change such a blatantly broken mechanic is just too stupid for words.

nah man this is how people leveled in 1999 it's classic (tm) /s

[bubur]

the "muh evidence" argument isnt just being stubborn. its not the community's mind you have to change here... if you want to change it to classic, the devs need numbers. if a percentage of us remember something a different way, even if its a majority (and im not saying it is in this case), they still cant just "fix" it without knowing what and to what degree something was different

im in agreement that charm mechanics from the original client are probably different than titanium. its the case for pathing, too. something totally fundamental to the game. probably a ton of other things that we wouldnt know unless we got into a time machine and saw it

its just not a simple matter to retool things to their original state

[Swish]

Regardless of whether it was classic or not, to allow a single class such a massive amount of power is fucking moronic.

At the time it was necromancers who had this comment attached to them.

[A1551]

Regardless of whether it was classic or not, to allow a single class such a massive amount of power is fucking moronic. Allowing a single class to literally charm a single mob with very little risk that can out dps an entire DPS dedicated group is so fucking dumb it's incredible. To refuse to change such a blatantly broken mechanic is just too stupid for words.

I actually personally agree with you that the game would be much better off if Charm was much less reliable, but again, who cares what I think. It is unlikely the devs here are going to make any changes to it without evidence on which they can act -- and that is the thing, if someone did a nice deep dive on it and found some real evidence, and posted a bug report, there's a pretty good chance they would rework it.

I like ENC and dont care if it stays broke but it's kinda inconsistent with the way mages are being handled

Why bully mages when enchanters can clear out areas faster than a full group can

How is it inconsistent? Mages sure have gotten shafted, but its not arbitrary -- someone went out and did a ton of quality research on them and submitted very detailed, thorough evidence to the devs which lead to things being the way they are. I agree it really sucks for mages and is frustrating, but if anything this is proof if someone got off their ass and did what Dolalin did with mages for charm/chanter research, It'd probably happen!

Except the values used are already a terrible guess by EQEmu devs who didn't give a shit what they used cause they were just trying to get the thing working in some way.

The charm code here is not the stock EQEMU code, I can't say how it differs or how much work was put into it or how much research was done, but you don't know either. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that whatever DEV here did the charm code, after deciding the stock code needed a re-work, probably did more research than you have. And you know what? Even if it is wrong (which it very well may be!) it works, and is likely a fair approximation of the classic system, and barring someone going and finding real evidence, I don't see the devs re-writing the system based on your half remembered opinion-complaints.

I want to emphasize here, I am not saying you're wrong, just that no P99 Dev is likely to come volunteer many hours of their time to retune the charm system which is working fine at the moment without some damn evidence it really is out of kilter.
https://www.oocities.org/xymarra/Strategy/EnchanterStrategy.html#charm

Finally, I appreciate you made at least some effort to find something that sort of resembles evidence, but this doesn't tell us anything. You can find people who would write the same thing about charm on P99 today. That is not to say it is of no value, it could be one piece in a much larger sample of evidence that all pointed in a similar way, but alone it is meaningless.

[Videri]

I think the main shortcoming of that old post that claims charm isn't worth it is that it is not a fact, but an opinion. If there was data, such as "I charmed 100 mobs and charm broke within the first minute 50% of the time," then it could be used to tune the numbers.

[bwe]

what data did the staff use to set their charm rates?

[A1551]

...A lot of classes have been nerfed that were OP in classic. If it is true Enchanter was like this, then fucking nerf it anyway. If it wasn't like this, then fucking nerf it...


Ok, so you seem to be confused about this project. They're not here trying to fix classic EQ, they're doing their best to recreate it given the limitations of an emulator and volunteer labor working on a passion project. It is their museum to classical EQ and they let us in the door to come play around and have fun, and man, I guess complaining about classes being OP on forums is as classic as can be, so I guess that's all part of the experience!

It is highly unlikely they nerf enchanter charm here without a good reason. The best reason would be the provision of evidence that it is not classic. They do other non classic things on occasion, but generally they are not arbitrary, and are usually related to easing the burden on their guide volunteers, or preventing people from "breaking" content in some sort of manner that the staff feel is against their vision of the spirit of classic EQ. I suppose you could try to make a case somehow along those lines, but I doubt youll be successful -- the much more likely path to success would be the classic evidence.

[Bazia]

im just gonna say it's very, very hard to believe that the people played on live who discovered tons of obscure shit were too stupid to notice that ENC can break the game with charms

[Zeboim]

We're never going to get a look inside the true classic values so the proof thing is moot either way. Instead we have to live with these arbitrary values that somebody pulled out of their ass that makes one class insanely overpowered. In Live you'd basically never have more than one chanter in a group, here I've been in several groups with 4 chanters and the dps is so far beyond any other class composition its ridiculous. Almost impossible to even take damage aside from one charm break every 5 minutes either. And I'm talking about level 20 groups on Teal or Green, with almost naked chanters.

[slowpoke68]

Yes having played from just after launch in 99, I can say the charm I see on this server is nothing like how it was. It is stupid. It trivializes content, is broken OP and just ridiculous. It is the one thing I really hate about P99.

The only people who could possibly not want this changed are face rollers who want to continue to face roll their way through content. My question is, why aren't you playing Battle for Azeroth?

Hate it.

[Donkey Hotay]

I'm sensing a lot of disgruntled melee players in this thread. If you enjoy melee in EQ, you are a mouthbreather.

That blurb from '99 sounds like some cleric's opinion on whether the chanter should Charm or not. Clerics in '99 were some slope-shouldered dude's fat wife or scabrous GF with the situational awareness of a mushroom. Apparently their husbands got old and now have opinions in this thread.

[Nomy]

My first character was an enchanter on fennin ro on launch. Charm broke a lot and definitely was not reliable. It definitely wasn't a strategy that I used to level up.

[Donkey Hotay]

I didn't know what I was doing on my first character with no gear or information so this guy is totally BTFO.

k

[Donkey Hotay]

Another Enchanter whiner probably. Invested into this broken mechanic and terrified that it will be fixed and they'll have to play EQ like it was intended again.

Newsflash: Brad McQuaid and Co. is and always was shit at game design. The only classes remotely interesting or engaging to play in this game are the solo classes. The rest are for people substituting MMOs for social lives. Your grouped melee toons and clerics are never going to be fun again because your 2019 group mates are tabbed out to alleviate the boredom; they don't GAF about you or your 20-year-old pixel lusts. Hell, I already can't stand you and all I read was your insipid OP.

[Dolalin]

Having done some reading on the subject, I don't think there's anything wrong with the enchanter charm charisma score check per se, rather I think the issue is that mobs on P99 have lower magic resistance than they did in classic.

I see lots of complaining about spell resists in the newsgroups and I feel as though we don't see those levels of resists here on P99.

Enchanter charm does a MR check every tick to break. This would neatly explain why it's so powerful here.

Have a look at this post from just after EQ launch:


4/24/99

After casting Tashan successfully (Tashan itself is often resisted) I
have still had several instances of having my spells resisted by
white/blue MOBs. It's getting pretty embarrassing, when I waste half
of my mana making a nice spell animations, and causing no damage at
all.

--
Stopped Clock stoppe...@hotmail.com
"You talk better than you fool." -- Homer Simpson

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.games.everquest/rUO91nD2Yns/8NeG3tgdBsQJ


Oh and that's another non-classic thing actually... Tashan wasn't a lure-type spell until May 1999 and the GZ enchanter retune.

[strawman]

After casting Tashan successfully (Tashan itself is often resisted) I
have still had several instances of having my spells resisted by
white/blue MOBs. It's getting pretty embarrassing, when I waste half
of my mana making a nice spell animations, and causing no damage at
all.

With the reference to "causing damage" it sounds like this poster in particular is referring to the Chaotic Feedback line, which absolutely does resist 25-40% of the time on p99 (as I recall this is because it's a stun resist check, not an MR check)

[nicemace]

one thing that needs to be considered is that during classic no one knew wtf was going on. like the skill level and knowledge about the game was minimal. with time people grew to understand the strengths of certain things like charm, once it was obvious how strong things were it started to get nerfed, such as exp from pet kills during POP.

i think you will find charm was strong in classic but we now have people who have 2 DECADES of playing experience and know how to use it to maximum benefit.

[Neric]

Back in the day I had charms break rather early as a low level, then at 50 it felt somewhat more reliable. I thought it had something to do with having CHA 200, but then I found out that this stat was more or less broken. So I guess there is a huge random factor built in.

[Fammaden]

Another old guy who played in era here. I've been saying the same thing ever since starting on blue as well. Back then ench's were not seen as any solo powerhouse, they were mostly a grouping class, and they were expected to mez and buff mostly maybe slow. If a chanter came into a group on my server back then saying they were going to charm a blue mob for extra dps they would have been told to fuck off and stop trying to get everyone killed.

Obviously no one knows the code from 1999 - 2001 so what the fuck we gonna do? I believe that bleeding edge guilds probably did use charm on early AoW kills and all but that's not the average gameplay or indicative of how reliable charming was for leveling.

[slowpoke68]

Yes and Enchanters were not very common. It was a treat when you got one in your group. I agree with the above poster. They were still a great class and highly valued, but charming just didn't happen.

In fact I remember the one and only time I ever saw a chanter use charm in classic. We were at the spawn that dropped the FBSS and the shit it the fan. We were headed for a wipe and the chanter charmed a mob and turned the tide.

I said wow that was great, why don't you do that all the time. He said it is way too dangerous and unreliable and only did it because things couldn't get any worse.

So anecdotal I know, but anyone who thinks chanters are ok being the best utility caster and the best dps and that was how it was in classic are nuts.

I hate it because it trivializes the content, and if I wanted that I would play some current mmo instead of going back to a 20 year old game.

[Vexenu]

The problem with saying, "Just find evidence for charm being OP and they will fix it!" is that it's impossible to find evidence for something that did not exist! In other words, you aren't going to find a lot of searchable evidence related to charm being powerful, because it wasn't, so people simply didn't talk about it. It's the same situation with combat bind wound, which is also terribly unclassic. You can't search and find anything that explicitly says, "You cannot bind wound during combat." Why is that? Because mechanically you simply could not, and there was no reason to even talk about it as a possibility. You can read dozens of melee player guides from the classic era and none will mention combat bind wound. This a shocking omission for such an overpowered ability, and its total absence from the historical record should be overwhelming evidence that it did NOT exist in the classic era.

Charm is in the same position. Charm on P1999 is so shockingly overpowered that there is no way not to notice it. In fact, it is so overpowered that it basically defines the class at this point. If you join a group as an Enchanter and don't charm a pet, people on P1999 will (rightfully) regard you as a bad player, because you aren't using all your class tools. The obvious question then becomes: if charm was the same back in the classic era, why wasn't it viewed the same way it is on P1999? Why weren't Enchanters regarded as far and away the most OP class in the game? Why wasn't charm equated with the class and mentioned in every single post and guide? Isn't it obvious that would have been the case?

It's simply nonsense to regard classic-era players as idiots who didn't understand how to play the game. I repeat: these are the same players who solved every quest in the game and parsed logs endlessly to figure out all sorts of combat formulas. The idea that they simply overlooked the entire charm spell line and wrote it off as worthless is idiotic. Further, the idea that the dev team of the time, had charm been as OP as it is on P1999, would NOT have nerfed the shit out of charm is also ridiculous. Necros specifically had their pets nerfed because they were OP. And an Enchanter with P1999 Charm can do much more than a classic-era Necro with an OP pet.

P1999 Enchanters would literally have you believe that players and devs 20 years ago were too stupid to cast the charm spell and didn't understand simple and obvious charm tactics like using color stuns and keeping maximum distance from charm pets. Newflash: you P1999 Enchanters are not raging geniuses compared to classic-era players. You have no new insights. You are simply taking advantage of broken mechanics that were unavailable back then, performing ridiculously overpowered feats and then claiming your player skill is the difference rather than absurdly OP charm that trivializes content.

[nicemace]

the thing is charm never really got nerfed until POP and I can say with certainty that ench's were charming in POP (which lead to the nerf). soloing we would be doing an AA every 1-2 mins. people have just taken that knowledge and started using it earlier.

[korzax]

So lets compare enc's in pop, when everyone knew they were op with quad damage mobs, and classic when everyone knew they were shitty at charm. Charm got better with AA's

[nicemace]

It's simply nonsense to regard classic-era players as idiots who didn't understand how to play the game.

sorry but that was the case. it's the same reason why we can't recreate the the same feeling of playing as back in the days. its a fact that no one knew wtf they were doing. that is what created the world that we viewed with wonder back then because we didn't know the best exp spots, the ZEM's etc. there is zero doubt that back then we were not playing the game optimally.

You have no new insights. You are simply taking advantage of broken mechanics that were unavailable back then, performing ridiculously overpowered feats and then claiming your player skill is the difference rather than absurdly OP charm that trivializes content.

how many shamans did you see soloing frenzy, lord etc in classic? not many. how many do you see now? plenty. shaman is known as one of the strongest solo classes. it sure as shit wasn't back in the day. what's your explanation ?

[nicemace]

So lets compare enc's in pop, when everyone knew they were op with quad damage mobs, and classic when everyone knew they were shitty at charm. Charm got better with AA's

there are no AA that improves charm. only AA improvements is damage avoidance / mitigation and mana pool, neither of which changes how charm works.

[Frug]

They're not here trying to fix classic EQ, they're doing their best to recreate it given the limitations of an emulator and volunteer labor working on a passion project.

Unless that provides some advantage to the players, then they fix the shit out of it.

[korzax]

Yes, everyone was stupid. You're stupid for thinking that.

[fadetree]

Does anyone have any really old logs from this time period on live that have charm sessions recorded in it? If so, and you have enough, you can count up all the encounters in those logs and their duration, and start doing some math. You'll need to know the stats of chars, their levels, and the level of the mobs they are working with. Torven over at TAKP has done a ton of that kind of extensive log parsing.
Anyway, hard to do I know, but that would be one form of 'proof'.

[korzax]

Yeah, people that played an enc back then were obviously stupid, and never tried to charm things.

[Tecmos Deception]

So lets compare enc's in pop, when everyone knew they were op with quad damage mobs, and classic when everyone knew they were shitty at charm. Charm got better with AA's

My chanter charmed the fuck out of stuff in kunark, velious, and on, before and after AAs. It worked great, and I wasn't even very good at the game back then.

90% of p99 can't charm correctly today even with videos and guides all over. 9% who can do it well now didn't know how to 4-5 years ago. Dudes like Save were owning kunark solo before I even had a chanter.

My point is barely anyone even on p99 knew how to use charm to great effect for half of it's lifetime. And if barely anyone here knew how to use it well in 2014-2015, you can bet your ass nobody knew how to use it well in 1999-2001. It could have been better on live than it is here and people still wouldn't have used it because a few bads tried, and got killed by a break, and their groups all spread the word that charm is shit.

[Tecmos Deception]

Yeah, people that played an enc back then were obviously stupid, and never tried to charm things.

Its not very untrue, dude. Most of the chanters on p99 today didn't use charm heavily several years ago because most everyone thought it was too dangerous. And that was on p99 in 2010+.

Basically NOBODY knew how to use it correctly on live.

[Widan]

there are no AA that improves charm. only AA improvements is damage avoidance / mitigation and mana pool, neither of which changes how charm works.

Total domination is an AA that improves charm duration. Its definitely noticable, but for reverse charm leveling nothing is ever charmed more than a minute or two anyways.

[Fammaden]

Its not very untrue, dude. Most of the chanters on p99 today didn't use charm heavily several years ago because most everyone thought it was too dangerous. And that was on p99 in 2010+.

Basically NOBODY knew how to use it correctly on live.

This may be entirely true, but we essentially will never know with absolute certainty, which is why I just accept the way things are.

One saving grace is that after Kunark things do get tougher and full traditional groups start to be more appealing to the general playerbase.

[nicemace]

i mean, as a caster back in the days. mob starts hitting you? what did you do? run in circles trying to stop getting hit.

what do you do now? not much cause you know you're not actually gonna die so you can mez / root / charm / whatever. that simple change of mentality 'oh i'm actually fine right now' allows you to do more 'risky' stuff.

[Izmael]

Haven't read the topic but back then nobody charmed because people were too scared of charm breaks and potential death.

Death was more of a problem back than it is today because:
- cleric epics were NOWHERE NEAR as prevalent
- travel was harder (no DAP / guild port bitches)
- everyone didn't have an alt 49+ cleric
- people weren't as knowledgeable about the game as they are today to make back the lost exp (res or not)

People just didn't generally bother with a lot of content unless they had the basic tank/healer/dps structure to work from.

[Fammaden]

i mean, as a caster back in the days. mob starts hitting you? what did you do? run in circles trying to stop getting hit.

what do you do now? not much cause you know you're not actually gonna die so you can mez / root / charm / whatever. that simple change of mentality 'oh i'm actually fine right now' allows you to do more 'risky' stuff.

Uh no, even back then if your first reaction to getting hit was to run around in circles you were certified bad at EQ. In a group at least, unless you are trying to talk about kiting for some reason.

[nicemace]

Uh no, even back then if your first reaction to getting hit was to run around in circles you were certified bad at EQ. In a group at least, unless you are trying to talk about kiting for some reason.

yes, that's exactly what i am saying. people were very bad at EQ.

[A1551]

You sound like a scared Enchanter whose time has come. You're ignoring all the non classic nerfs here to prevent exactly what is happening with Enchanter now.

It's time to nerf Enchanter charm everyone. Turn them back into a group mez class like we all know they are and were intended to be regardless.

I literally said i would personally prefer if they did in fact nerf it. Try and follow along

[Vexenu]

Its not very untrue, dude. Most of the chanters on p99 today didn't use charm heavily several years ago because most everyone thought it was too dangerous. And that was on p99 in 2010+.

Basically NOBODY knew how to use it correctly on live.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80165

The Solo Artist Challenge thread dates to 2012, which means that the power of charm was well-known on P1999 prior to that. People had been abusing charm for years by the time Loraen codified that list.

Also, the fact that that thread is composed almost entirely of Enchanters or Shaman/Druids/Clerics with Puppet Strings is COMPLETELY COINCIDENTAL folks. No overpowered charm to see here!

[Fammaden]

yes, that's exactly what i am saying. people were very bad at EQ.

And I'm saying there were many who weren't and were very good at EQ. Its nonsense to think that the entire playerbase in era shit their pants and panicked anytime something went wrong. Chanters were just as tasked with dealing with trains and shit as they are now, any one who tried running at the first sight of trouble would no longer get invited to groups.

[nicemace]

And I'm saying there were many who weren't and were very good at EQ. Its nonsense to think that the entire playerbase in era shit their pants and panicked anytime something went wrong. Chanters were just as tasked with dealing with trains and shit as they are now, any one who tried running at the first sight of trouble would no longer get invited to groups.

yes of course there were. but that wasn't the majority. the majority had no clue.

are you telling me that in the first year of everquest that everyone was playing with a skill cap of 2 DECADES of knowledge? i'm sorry but that is laughable if you think that is true.


i would be interested to hear what you think about the following:


how many shamans did you see soloing frenzy, lord etc in classic? not many. how many do you see now? plenty. shaman is known as one of the strongest solo classes. it sure as shit wasn't back in the day. what's your explanation ?

[Fammaden]

So now you're moving the goalposts from "casters reacted badly to getting aggro all the time" to "no one was playing at the same "sKiLL CaP"? Whatever dude, the majority HERE have no clue either, we aren't using some dumbfuck level 30 as our baseline in the discussion. The comparisions are competent chanters then and now, and your initial assertion that "casters would just run around if they got hit instead of reacting intelligently" was fucking dumb as shit. Good day.

[nicemace]

wut?

my point is that the majority of players were bad at the game in 1999. this hasn't changed. you can look at general players actions back then vs general players now. the skill cap has improved based on 2 DECADES of knowledge. show me where i am wrong.

there were exceptional players back then that used their full toolkits available to their characters but you didn't really hear or see it because THE MAJORITY (who were bad) just focused on the basic stuff.

my point hasn't changed.

also, please see above re: shaman.

[Fammaden]

There were 100 times more people playing back then. The majority on any given server was bad but every class had forums where they discussed the classes high end strats. All those chanters serverwide trying to break the game and find advantages and none of them ever considered trying to lean heavily on the charm line. Sure. And they all "ran around as soon as they got hit" too because it takes twenty years of experience to learn not to do that.

[nicemace]

and yet come luclin and pop every single ench (warning: a generalization) was charming. maybe this is cause people 'figured it out' and it became more known about on these forums you mention. i personally learnt to charm from a guildie teaching me.

now we see it everywhere based on past knowledge.

please tell me what you think about shamans im keen to hear.

[bwe]

I'm gonna be that guy: where's your proof? Your memory is unreliable

[Vexenu]

Let's assume that only 5% of EQ players back in the day would be considered skilled by modern standards. And then let's assume that on P1999, with the advantage of twenty years of knowledge, 50% of players are skilled (this is being quite generous).

Even with these assumptions, the idea that classic-era players wouldn't have figured out how to exploit charm is preposterous simply due to population numbers.

Classic era active population was approximately 300,000 players.

P1999 active population is approximately 3,000 players.

5% x 300,000 = 15,000 skilled players

50% x 3,000 = 1,500 skilled players

So even if we have 10x the amount of skilled players on P1999 compared to the classic era live servers, the sheer classic population numbers dictate that they had 10x as many skilled players overall.

Also keep in mind that in the classic era EVERY SINGLE CLASS had a dedicated forum/message board where the strategies, spells, abilities, mechanics, etc... of that class were HEAVILY discussed and shared. If Charm had been discovered as OP by even a single skilled player back then, that knowledge would have been discussed exhaustively on the class forums and then spread widely through the entire community.

[Bazia]

anyone claiming everyone back on live was retarded is a bad faith actor, it's not believable and they just want the shit to stay broken

[bwe]

I think they should provide proof that charm worked on live the way it does on p99

[nicemace]

so a couple of things.

skilled today =/= skilled then.

the skill level is variable. there is really know way to accurately state skill level people played at, but i will just ask... were you playing the game in 1999 EXACTLY the same way you play now? if not, then why is it not fair to say the same can be said for most other people?

why are raid mobs so easy now but were considered a challenge back then? how long did emp take to be killed? what a month of emp 8 hours a day? now it's 1 shot every time. why is that? RZ? council?

[nicemace]

anyone claiming everyone back on live was retarded is a bad faith actor, it's not believable and they just want the shit to stay broken

charm aside, what zones were popular exp spots back in your day? was it only befallen, guk, unrest, lguk ? or did people exp everywhere? why is that?

[Bazia]

charm aside, what zones were popular exp spots back in your day? was it only befallen, guk, unrest, lguk ? or did people exp everywhere? why is that?

population

[bubur]

I get that people played a lot back then but to think the meta hasn't evolved for each and every little thing over 10 years of p99 is ignant too. Remember actual classic was not around for very long in comparison. Case in point more ppl play enc and charm grind now than they did on p99 8 years ago. Source: memory

There was always a cabal of knowed explorers in eq that were rumored to have buttered up gms for epic quest explanations etc. There were also a small set of hackers doing things no one else could. The top efficiency methods in the game have always been about knowledge and borderline cheating, but the reality is *most* players weren't in the know. We also didn't care to be or even know we weren't because we played eq to play eq. It was a different time in gaming.

Tldr : actual full kit charm grinding could have been under our noses and mainstream ppl just believed an enc exclusive job was to mez and hang out in groups

[lordpazuzu]

But...why is there no proof....

Verant was pretty hardcore about hiding numbers and mechanics back in the day.

[lordpazuzu]

charm aside, what zones were popular exp spots back in your day? was it only befallen, guk, unrest, lguk ? or did people exp everywhere? why is that?

Everywhere because ZEMs weren't a known quantity.

[lordpazuzu]

and yet come luclin and pop every single ench (warning: a generalization) was charming. maybe this is cause people 'figured it out' and it became more known about on these forums you mention. i personally learnt to charm from a guildie teaching me.

now we see it everywhere based on past knowledge.

please tell me what you think about shamans im keen to hear.

It wasn't because people were "figuring it out." Verant tweaked mechanics constantly because they were making it up as they went along just like the players were. Invis became more reliable, charm became more reliable, root became easier to break, etc.

[bubur]

here: http://web.archive.org/web/20080912165409/http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/35658-eq-cheaters-nostalgia-eq1s-greatest-exploits-rumors-4.html#post1160598

is my favorite thread about all the fun exploity stuff i missed in actual eq. its long and afaik nothing that would support either argument in this charm discussion per se, but look at all the crap we didnt know and someone else did and was using.. its a fun read

[Meiva]

This is such a shitpost.

Enchanters never charmed, nor did groups want them to charm because we went LD everytime our mothers picked up the phone to call the neighbor. Even if you had separate lines, or were wealthy with RoadRunner, you STILL went LD frequently.

Couple that with not knowing you must charm much lower lvl mobs for reliability. Most of us didn't know shit. Those that did were doing much of what we do now with charm, if they dared to brave a LD disaster.

I rarely LD anylonger. It fucking sucked back then.

[Ligma]

there are no AA that improves charm. only AA improvements is damage avoidance / mitigation and mana pool, neither of which changes how charm works.

There was for enchanter. But even a druid could charm mobs that don't summon and hit for like 500 in storm or tactics. And for a while they could give the pet a slow stick to have 70% slow and CH. And charm would last full duration with MR debuffs very often.

But to be 100% real, most people didn't charm in groups or in raids in PoP. Despite it being widely known how OP it was, and despite charm trivializing basically every raid pre-time or mith marr. Despite echanters being able to charm mobs that don't summon and quad for nearly 800 in fire, most groups were still kite groups at tables.

Even when it was well known how powerful it was, it wasn't as prevalent as you would think.

[bubur]

more anecdotal points: even on the combine/sleeper tlp server, i played an enc and no one expected me to charm.. this is after like what, 7 xpacs of eq? and people thought i was a good enc because i could tab target and lock mobs down as they were getting into the camp

its not like i couldnt have charmed and added a ton of efficiency, but ppl didnt expect me to. that was like 2005 or 2006 i believe?

edit: not to mention that on that particular tlp, people would have flipped a bitch on me for claiming a charmed mob. there were no instances back then and it was way worse than green launch in terms of mob availability

anyway it wasn't common practice even in a time when we used the titanium client in-era, ostensibly with the exact same charm mechanics as p99. heck it wasnt even common practice on p99 release. it took youtube videos post-emu era and popularization of the "solo artist challenge" for people to wake up to charm's power imo

[bubur]

tbh i find it a real shame enc can't simply play like they used to and be acceptable. it used to be regarded a real support class, keeping people safe and increasing efficiency with mana/haste, at least at my low level of play. i never power guilded in actual classic. it was my favorite role in rpgs

nowadays there's a lot of pressure for enc to bring a brickhouse of dps and constantly have a high blue on the charm line, with minimal chances to take a bio. but think about where that pressure is coming from.. a lot of it is the evolving community around us, not necessarily the mechanics

d-d-double post

[Zeboim]

True. 4 to 5 enc groups are somehow not only a thing now, but possibly the strongest group type. Incredibly unclassic, in 99 that would have been considered (rightfully) a suicide squad.

[Buellen]

Ok some everlore digging.


Yes its a bit out of era 2002 but gives good account low level charming.

https://web.archive.org/web/20021231051015/http://www.everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=398&mode=details&spname=Charm&type=

"I happen to think this spell is LOADS of fun and quite productive! I have horrible luck with the regular ENC pets, can never get them to attack and I get clobbered. I saw the benefit immediately if you're waiting for a group to show up or messing about aimlessly. Get good xp and spell casting experience even when you're dorking around :). My CHA is around 120, tash, root and charm and my solo attack sequence standing by. pick my pet, root it. back up and sit down and wait for 10 seconds or so, depending on root. thank the gods for the ability to still see while memming, revolutionized spell casting letmetellyou!. try to get as close to when your root will end, tash it and charm it. If you trust your charm, watch for it to break, then apply tash and charm (in that order!) Insta-PET! do the /pet guard me and sit down to bring up the solo attack sequence. Don't dawdle, charm has to be applied liberally. I'd say every minute and this is tough on mana. Go out and play with your pet! Plan to have to take on your pet and for gods sakes don't think you can take on a red con with your dark blue pet, they'll both be pissed at you. I find myself rooting my pets often and membluring them. Start over. :)

I have not traveled a whole lot, but found that the animals (crocs, beetles, spiders, snakes) make good pets. Pumas/lions/cats are INT challenged. they run circles around you, very busy creatures.

If nothing else, soloing with a charmed pet is a very good and productive way to spend time while you wait for a group to build. You end up being able to safely practice all your spells, thanks to root and charm. Charmed pets don't get grumpy when you experiment with spells so use the time for that.
Submited by: Anonymous On: 4/2/2002 1:31:01 PM "

like many have said not a lot old post about these spells but this seem very good description of sound like level 12 enchant playing with his new charm spell.

[lesell]

I'm also looking up stuff on wayback and most people are talking about how charm is viable in a group in 1999:

Everlore discussion on page 1 from 1999:
https://web.archive.org/web/20000510211728/http://www.everlore.com/races_classes/classes.asp?CID=3&mode=details&type=races

They don't mention charm being dangerous or useless to use, and someone even suggests it as a solo tactic on orcs at level 19. I don't think it was 'common knowledge' no one used it.

--Submited by: Viscar On: 06/08/1999 10:14:43 PM '

Ever been in a spot where its pretty much free for all but the one high powered group or individual there is killing everything? No problem charm the monster that you want to kill and grab your group and run to a spot where no one is at. When charm wears off you and your group and finish off that monster with ease! Best of all since charmed monsters are considered pets, anyone else who is trying to blast a charmed monster is wasting ALOT of thier mana trying to kill something they cannot.

And another post by someone else further down:

--Submited by: Anatsia On: 07/08/1999 10:51:37 AM
I am what one would call a newbie? Nahh... level 19 ehchanter
charm is a great spell fighting orcs anywhere in Norrath.
For example go to a camp where there are three orcs or even two.
Charm the orc that is the closet to you and run to the orc and let him
hit you just once. Since you can not control your pet the pet or charmed
enemy is just there to protect you. He will have no choice but to help you fight.
Make sure you tell your party your charming because if you at charm and your party does not know
they will try to kill him and he wont die. The enemy is now your pet you can not have two pets so whatch out
do not charm when you have a pet already.
Then sit back and watch eachother fight until he is dead from the other enemy or when he breaks the spell
this is the so cool when ur are in a train or have more than u can handle

Just based on those two posts alone, I'd say you're wrong about it 'always breaking in 10 seconds' and and never used in groups, etc. Sorry. Obviously people were already using as a tactic (and in groups) it in 1999. No one talks about it breaking in 10 seconds. They don't even mention it being especially dangerous.

And yeah, I remember charming being risky back in the day, but I don't think people viewed charming as super viable until they understood it better. Early guides I've found on enchanters seem rare and they were a pretty misunderstood and under-utilized class back then. I found someone saying that Enchanters weren't very useful even, so... I think that bad enchanters may have somewhat clouded your judgment of charm. I remember there being a stigma about charming in general until people got good at it... a good charm isn't as memorable as the one time the ENC killed everyone with his dumb pet.

And guess what? 20 years later people are very good at it now, so I think that explains the idea that it 'seems' OP. I don't think it is.

Also, I have been trawling casters realm and such and even in 2000 (RoK) era under the 'guides' area there are tons of posts about charming... I can't read them as the wayback didn't archive the actual content, but from the myriad of 'charming' guides, I would say that by RoK, charming was seen as viable. Again, I can't read the actual content of the guides, but from the titles, I don't think they are all saying, 'charming is awful, don't do it,'

https://web.archive.org/web/20010727210527/http://eq.castersrealm.com/playguides/default.asp?Class=enchanter&Category=6

That is from RoK era-- of note is the "Charming Tactics" guide on there. This is way before PoP and AAs and all that, just FYI.

EDIT: My bad the second link is 2001, I read it wrong, so Velious not RoK, but its still pre-Luclin.

[Buellen]

Just laughs this link shows how people use to thin low cha helped necros with there charms.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020901140138/http://everlore.com:80/magic/Magic.asp?ID=6179&mode=details&spname=Beguile+Undead&type=

[ygagarine]

IMO, sOlo enchanters were rare in 1999 because of the fear of going ld, which happened quite often. Network connections were not as reliable as they are now.

[Lojik]

Seems broken to me but what do I know. I'd suspect it's like Dolalin said that MR checks are too low on ticks on this server, since root (at least in my opinion) doesn't break nearly as often as it did on live either.

I think Daldaen (or someone?) mentioned in another thread that the reverse charming method might not have been possible either, since the xp would be eaten when you kill the first mob. This alone would be a huge nerf, and I'd suspect knock out quite a few leveling enchanters on to other classes.

You'd think that if it was possibly as op as it can be here that you'd see posts about specific encounters, osargen in hhk for one or even other rogue mobs. Maybe there are? If something like this was going on, it'd be pretty outrageous by classic standards. With populations the way they were someone would have seen it and either copied it or posted about it.

[stakka]

Enchanters in their current state on p99 have literally broken and trivialized the content on classic EQ for what its worth. Also I'm sure its been said before, but I hope you guys get used to that. These chanters will be soloing/duoing all the high plat camps from now until the end of velious while your group stands idly by.

[strawman]

Enchanters never charmed, nor did groups want them to charm because we went LD everytime our mothers picked up the phone to call the neighbor. Even if you had separate lines, or were wealthy with RoadRunner, you STILL went LD frequently.

This is the most reasonable post in the thread.

There are also obviously a lot of people here who want enchanters nerfed and have figured out that "it's not classic!" is the P99 equivalent of "it's not balanced!" for a commercial MMO.

Charm soloing in 2019 is a lot harder and more frustrating than people are making it out to be in this thread. I'm sure it was even worse in 1999 on dialup connections. It's also very powerful and rewarding.

Nerfing away everything powerful and difficult will eventually turn this game into WOW, where instead of meaningful class choices you have 11 different colors of the exact same gameplay.

[Mercius]

I never really cared about how OP they were until that green naggy kill, that SINGLE imp protector who didnt break once the entire engage and did half the raid dps triggered the fuck out of me lol

[blanks77]

In official patch notes why does it say "Charm is immediately removed from charmed NPC's when the character that charmed them casts invisibility"

Were enchanter not able to break charm with invis prior to this time?

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-1.html

[Bazia]

Charm soloing in 2019 is a lot harder and more frustrating than people are making it out to be in this thread.

It's really not, because If it was it being broken wouldn't be as large an issue.

Everyone is abusing it now.

[bwe]

In official patch notes why does it say "Charm is immediately removed from charmed NPC's when the character that charmed them casts invisibility"

Were enchanter not able to break charm with invis prior to this time?

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2002-1.html

This is a huge find

[fadetree]

#we'renotclassic

[Juntsie]

Juntsie emerge from long slumber and review da record. Herein document post by BWE prove dat chanta charm NOT CLASSIC.

Juntsie hereby move for da remedial CLASSIC ACTION.

[strawman]

It's really not, because If it was it being broken wouldn't be as large an issue.

Everyone is abusing it now.

Are you saying it must be easy because so many people are crying about it on the forum?

[mycoolrausch]

This is a huge find

It even indirectly supports the idea that enchanter charm is OP on p99. If nobody here even remembers not using invis breaks in classic they weren't charm XPing, probably because charm sucked? :p

[strawman]

It even indirectly supports the idea that enchanter charm is OP on p99. If nobody here even remembers not using invis breaks in classic they weren't charm XPing, probably because charm sucked? :p

No it doesn't, you'd just spend a little more mana to break with dispel instead of invis

[Deliverator]

I literally started charming sirens in oot at 16 on live 3 weeks into kunark. Then aviaks in SK and at Arena entrance in lake rathe. I was soloing with charm on an enchanter in 2000...

[Ligma]

I never really cared about how OP they were until that green naggy kill, that SINGLE imp protector who didnt break once the entire engage and did half the raid dps triggered the fuck out of me lol

With tash, malo, junk buffs and a whole group to coordinate charm on discord. No one coordinated in that way back in the day. In that sense, yes it's not classic.

[Meiva]

It also mentions changing Charm rules in The Hole to Kunark-era. What does that mean?

[byzah]

Eye witness evidence counts as evidence in criminal trials - so here's some more.

I played an enchanter in Classic - Kunark & used charm extensively but mostly as a backup spell. It was fantastic in Unrest in the 20s as a CC spell to deal with mez breaks. Mez breaks were very common back then as few players knew how to assist...

(Lv12 Charm had a 2.0s cast time...later versions are slower, so harder to get off when you're getting pounded & of course mobs hit harder even with stuns).

I recall Inviz *did* break Charm (just as it causes permanent pets to suicide).

Charm was also useful situationally when close to a zone line :)

We didn't know tricks like tashing the charm pet [though I tashed all mobs after mez] or giving the charm pet -MR items [assuming that even works on p1999 as it does on Live now].

I think the biggest difference is that today the ENTIRE TEAM works to support the charm strategy. Mages & Shamans are ready to malo. Tanks/rangers are ready to taunt (only). Necros will toss in a Screaming Terror...healers will heal you. You will actually be HP buffed.

All changes from "back in the day" where teamwork was much less effective.

Back then, I never received hp buffs from clerics (or thought to ask for them) until high levels and when I later switched mains to cleric, I recall watching an enchanter die in PoN as he was extensively using charm and I had no idea why he was being so reckless...

(I did feel sorry for him after rezzing him back in and even blew a pearl on a DI spell)

[strawman]

this thread has revealed magic resist rate is off

There was one 1999 post of an enchanter complaining that Chaotic Feedback resists a lot, which is a stun resist check, not magic resist. That doesn't "reveal that magic resist rate is off"

[strawman]

Just a reminder that this thread is past the point of proving if this is "classic." Enchanters need a nerf just for being OP same as Necro and other classes that have been nerfed.

What was the nerf to necro?

[byzah]

The patch notes are confusing as I deleted my chanter in 2001 yet I can remember memming inviz to break charm early.

Unreliable witness, obviously :)

I'll get my coat.

[byzah]

There has already been enough evidence provided to prove you're wrong and that there are core mechanics broken like MR rate, invis, etc.

Wrong about inviz, definitely possible. Wrong about classic viability of Charm - no. I was there. I used it. It worked*.

Note that's not the same thing as saying that the current strategy isn't cheesy or unbalancing and that no action should be taken in the interests of balance [at the expense of authenticity). I don't like it as a tactic either. I don't like teaming with enchanters and I'll never play one so long as this is a thing.

* Unlike Lull line, which really did suck (so badly that I didn't even buy the spells on my cleric all the way to the one they released around the GoD/OoW era which actually functioned)

[strawman]

NEcro lifetaps aren't 100% unresistable and they can't give fine steel or low delay weapons to pet while keeping max damage. Two things that made Necro completely dominate classic even more than broken Enchanter does today in "classic" P99. Staff nerfed due to trivializing content same as should be done to ENchanter.

Do you have a link to the thread with evidence for this, and the staff stating they nerfed it in spite of the evidence that it worked differently in classic?

[bwe]

The patch notes are confusing as I deleted my chanter in 2001 yet I can remember memming inviz to break charm early.

Unreliable witness, obviously :)

I'll get my coat.

Yeah that patch note must be wrong, this mentions invis breaking charm from 2000

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/Charm$20invis/alt.games.everquest/IcC9ObuzvxM

[byzah]

Yeah that patch note must be wrong, this mentions invis breaking charm from 2000

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/Charm$20invis/alt.games.everquest/IcC9ObuzvxM

Unless they went back and forth on it?

I do have a "proper" memory of sitting down in Unrest and memming Inviz to remove charm there as the team didn't want my pet hanging around after a fight. I was a high elf - so no Hide.

One nerf to necros regarding charm that I recall was that necros would camp a named and charm one mob then set it on the named then FD. They could stay FD (100% safe assuming no AEs in range) and their pet would keep fighting. The nerf was that FD would break charm after X seconds.

[strawman]

Yeah that patch note must be wrong, this mentions invis breaking charm from 2000

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/Charm$20invis/alt.games.everquest/IcC9ObuzvxM

This link didn't work for me but I did go back and start looking at alt.games.everquest.

May 2001:


Greets,
I just hit 12 with one of my many alts, (Enchanter this time) and
picked up Charm as one of my new spells. With mez and mem-blure it
seems like the perfect tool for soloing. Needless to say I haven't had
time to try it out yet. Any suggestions or comments?

Cheers


soloing an enchanter? brave, very brave indeed.
The charm is prety good. Charm a critter, kill another one with it and kill
your weakened one after that. Saves time.


As someone else pointed out, SoW is pretty much a necessity for charm
soloing. Make sure you always keep the mob your pet is fighting
rooted. That way when charm breaks you have only one mob coming at you
instead of two. Stay far enough away that you can charm or mez/charm
again when it breaks.

You usually don't open with charm, mez/tash/charm instead, or just
tash/charm if you're that confident in your channeling skill. Tash
seems to help quite a bit in charm duration.


Charisma helps. I don't think anyone's done any comparitive studies to see
how much it helps, but Verant says it does.

But what helps even more is tash. Tash that mob before you charm it, and
the charm will last for a LONG time.




I haven't had very good luck with using charm to solo. But I find it
works wonderfully in a group where there is someone to cover my back.
If the group pulls a couple mobs and one is a green or blue con caster I
often charm the caster, assist main tank, and /pet attack.
I generally warn the group that I might be casting charm, and try to let
them know which mob is charmed. Otherwise they might waste quite a bit
of effort on it.

I've heard that higher charisma makes charm last longer. Boosted mine a
bit and it seems to help.



Sounds like people were doing nearly the same thing we are now in 2001.

[mycoolrausch]

From Feb 2000:


Kentoo Bryteblade

"steve" <_-srhe...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:ggGn4.20503$MN.87996@news2.jacksonville.net.. .
<SNIP>

> I have many many times
> and EVERYTIME I try to charm a spec, I just hope my sow I just traded a
> clarity for don't run out. Now I have seen level 44+ enchanters that have
> every cha (i.e. cha=200)(ie = twinked out) item in the game (almost) on
the
> character, charm specs, but even then the spec breaks the charm! usually
in
> less time it would take for the spec to kill other specs. SO our charm is
> almost worthless. please prove me wrong
Well I don't know about soloing spec island, but my wife and I can do three
or four using mes and charm...she has no significant problem charming specs
and hasn't since about level 35 (she's 40 now and I'm 37th and a warrior).
She has soloed two specs using one charmed to kill the other, then burning
the former pet. The key is to let the specs fight it out...only casting
enough to let your pet stay ahead in damage, and medding the rest of the
time (and yes same strategy for clopses and HGs). Ensure you let your pet
take allot of damage, go invis to break the charm, then mes and burn.

[ArunaGreen]

This is the most reasonable post in the thread.

There are also obviously a lot of people here who want enchanters nerfed and have figured out that "it's not classic!" is the P99 equivalent of "it's not balanced!" for a commercial MMO.

Charm soloing in 2019 is a lot harder and more frustrating than people are making it out to be in this thread. I'm sure it was even worse in 1999 on dialup connections. It's also very powerful and rewarding.

Nerfing away everything powerful and difficult will eventually turn this game into WOW, where instead of meaningful class choices you have 11 different colors of the exact same gameplay.


You're COMPLETELY retarded if you think charm is even remotely balanced. The naggy kill that just happened would literally have been impossible without a hasted charmed pet that BS's for more than double what a max rogue with BiS gear would be capable of. Charm is BY FAR the most broken spell in the entire game and to say it doesn't need to be nerfed is actually moronic.

[jacob54311]

You're COMPLETELY retarded if you think charm is even remotely balanced. The naggy kill that just happened would literally have been impossible without a hasted charmed pet that BS's for more than double what a max rogue with BiS gear would be capable of. Charm is BY FAR the most broken spell in the entire game and to say it doesn't need to be nerfed is actually moronic.

I guess the key point here is, was it like this in the first year or two of EQ?

Because they are leaving in a lot of things that were pretty bad ideas but were part of the game early on, like hybrid XP penalties.

[bwe]

but not necro fine steel dagger or feign death pet killing for example

[mycoolrausch]

You're COMPLETELY retarded if you think charm is even remotely balanced. The naggy kill that just happened would literally have been impossible without a hasted charmed pet that BS's for more than double what a max rogue with BiS gear would be capable of. Charm is BY FAR the most broken spell in the entire game and to say it doesn't need to be nerfed is actually moronic.

It's not balanced but he's right. If you want actual class balance there's WoW. In Classic WoW Priest can charm (mind control) but it's a short duration channeled spell that can be interrupted and you can't do anything else while you're doing it. That's much more sensible, but it's not classic everquest.

[strawman]

You're COMPLETELY retarded if you think charm is even remotely balanced. The naggy kill that just happened would literally have been impossible without a hasted charmed pet that BS's for more than double what a max rogue with BiS gear would be capable of. Charm is BY FAR the most broken spell in the entire game and to say it doesn't need to be nerfed is actually moronic.

I'm saying that twenty years pursuing the holy grail of balance has given us World of Warcraft, which may be the most unfun video game ever created. Maybe balance isn't as important as everyone has been saying it is.

but not necro fine steel dagger or feign death pet killing for example

What's the proof for these? Is there video or logs or something demonstrating that necros had capabilities they don't have here? It seems like it would be a simple matter to get this fixed, if there's proof beyond "i remember it was like this i swear".

[Hokojin]

Someone in 2003 recalling weapon delay on pets:

http://www.necrotalk.com/forum/the-boneyard/bonechips/281-how-to-choose-equipment-for-pet?p=25674#post25674

Still searching for actual developer/patch info about the change

[bwe]

https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!searchin/alt.games.everquest/necro$20dagger/alt.games.everquest/8y1JakMMLdo

I am a necro, and make no bones about it, it is the strongest class in the
game. When my lvl 29 pet is hitting for 28dmg at a delay of 19 or 20 (FS or
regular dagger) and my dots do close to 1000dmg stacked, it is kind of hard
to dispute that. I have never seen this much hostility towards a class on
my server (Quellious) and that may be because it is not PvP. I have never
seen anyone complain in a group or by just plain soloing that I am too
powerful, in a group they welcome me with open arms and solo they ask me
questions about my class. I am aggreed though that melee classes (warrior,
ranger, and monk) need to be able to dish out more dmg at higher levels,
when a wizard is doing 1000dmg with one spell and a warrior is trying to hit
for 100dmg with his ex axe, you know there is a huge problem. I feel that
melees are the most unbalanced in the game at higher levels, and it is not
only necros providing this unbalance, wizards enchanters and mages are also
contributing. There needs to be a better weapon damage formula used in the
game. The dmg monks dish out needs to be raised and the dly of their
attacks need to be lowered. Simple as that, if this is done, everyone who
feels their penis is smaller than the skeleton's will be happy, and we can
end this senseless babble filled debate and move to a new one....

[Dolalin]

The necro dagger nerf is well documented in the patch notes for January 2000 on the wiki. There's no need to go digging for evidence.

[bubur]

You're COMPLETELY retarded if you think charm is even remotely balanced. The naggy kill that just happened would literally have been impossible without a hasted charmed pet that BS's for more than double what a max rogue with BiS gear would be capable of. Charm is BY FAR the most broken spell in the entire game and to say it doesn't need to be nerfed is actually moronic.

i dont believe you're this mad. you're joshin us

[bwe]

The necro dagger nerf is well documented in the patch notes for January 2000 on the wiki. There's no need to go digging for evidence.

great, let's restore dagger delay for the next several months

[ArunaGreen]

I'm saying that twenty years pursuing the holy grail of balance has given us World of Warcraft, which may be the most unfun video game ever created. Maybe balance isn't as important as everyone has been saying it is.

I mean I never really played wow but to say it's the most unfun game ever created is pretty fucking dumb lol. EQ Classic is a fucking awfully designed game. I only play it for nostalgia. I'm not even crying for perfect balance but charm in its current state is fucking plain stupid. How the fuck can you possibly defend a single class being able to charm a pet so powerful that it can out DPS an entire DPS dedicated group.

[fadetree]

I mean I never really played wow but to say it's the most unfun game ever created is pretty fucking dumb lol. EQ Classic is a fucking awfully designed game. I only play it for nostalgia. I'm not even crying for perfect balance but charm in its current state is fucking plain stupid. How the fuck can you possibly defend a single class being able to charm a pet so powerful that it can out DPS an entire DPS dedicated group.

Actually, for it's time EQ was well designed. Anyone who played things like Meridian 59 would agree. Just like us, they didn't realize a bunch of stuff that we would create as emergent gameplay. There are so many intersecting variables and complicated relationships that they just didn't know what they didn't know. Wow was built on top of that knowledge gained during the first years of EQ.

[strawman]

I mean I never really played wow but to say it's the most unfun game ever created is pretty fucking dumb lol.

i played a lot of wow and it's a fucking awful, unfun game that retains players using aggressive psychological manipulation
rare mounts and titanforged gear keep that game in business

[jacob54311]

i played a lot of wow and it's a fucking awful, unfun game that retains players using aggressive psychological manipulation
rare mounts and titanforged gear keep that game in business

It's fucking awful and you played it "a lot"?

Why, so you could claim deep knowledge of the game on message boards?

[Danth]

To be fair there are P99'ers who do that too....get sucked into parts of the game they hate (usually high-end raiding), burn out, quit, then in their resentment proceed to hang around the forum trashing the game and anyone who keeps playing it.

Danth

[Lone Gnome]

15 pages of tears, and not one word was read

[strawman]

It's fucking awful and you played it "a lot"?

Why, so you could claim deep knowledge of the game on message boards?

>game uses powerful manipulation techniques to keep people playing
>people keep playing

i don't see the inconsistency here

[jacob54311]

>game uses powerful manipulation techniques to keep people playing
>people keep playing

i don't see the inconsistency here

Yes, well, usually the people who keep playing are getting some satisfaction out of it, at least. A sense of accomplishment. They certainly don't have the opinion that the game is actually awful even while they keep coming back to it.

You are aware of the manipulation and do consider it to be just an awful game, but kept playing for some reason?

[GnomeCaptain]

All these bad troll threads, someone needs to take out the trash.

[Buellen]

Just to be thorough

The post about patch in 2002 about invisibility breaking charms is confusing because there is guides post before that date show the method currently being used.

https://web.archive.org/web/20030429023907/http://eq.crgaming.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=7213


DERVS IN N RO FROM 12-17 REAL EASY USING CHARM - Riganakos, Druzzil Ro
This guid should be used from 12-17, I did it in 2 days.

The way to really do this to be at derv 3, easiest camp OR derv 1 but it takes alittle more skill and is far from zone, if you still can get derv 3 and only derv 1 you have to keep illusion dark elf up unless you are one or Dorn (WAY undercon) will aggro when you pull.

Now to the fighting part. Con the mobs and look who is the strongest, then soothe the other 2 and do the three spells as follow on the 3rd derv. Mesmerise/tashan/charm, do it fast. Now you have to wait for mesmerise to wear off and he will come running to you as your pet, might want to recharm him when mesmerise breaks just to be safe.

Now soothe 1 derv and pull the other with Chaotic if you are under lvl 16, back up alittle so the chaotic spell almost recycle then send in pet and cast a new chaotic. He should be dead now.

Cast charm again on your derv pet.

On the last derv you only cast Chaotic ONE time because you want you pet to get as low as possible without dying, you might have to cast chaotic 1 more time but not offen.

Now park the pet using then run away at a safe distance, target yourself and cast invisibility then hurry to target the derv that is running towards you now and keep pressing root untill you cast it on him. Now simlpy choke him and throw in a chaotic or 2 to speed things up.

I ALWAYS cast root again before choke because normally after a root/choke and you cast choke again then shortly after the root will break.

At 16-17 simply remove the chaotic and replace it with sanity warp but dont use the L16 mesmerise spell Enthrall because it will last 48 seconds and your charm is most likely not stick that long.

NOTE: SoW (Spirit of the Wolf) is great to have here just in case. If charm breaks you will have 2 angry dervs on you and you can run away a great distance then recharm you derv and you will be ok, without SoW youŽll have to zone if your not brave enough and try to get off a charm while they hit on you. You could root the derv your attacking but then he/she wont walk away at low health and still beat on your derv pet.

Strategy Submitted on: Monday, December 17, 2001

hope this is useful

PS its not balanced but it is Classic.

[Buellen]

Another guide from 2001

Showing the power of Enchanter and how classic they are with the charm power !

https://web.archive.org/web/20030429023626/http://eq.crgaming.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=6938

12-45 IN 30 DAYS SOLO USE CHARM SQUISHY CHANTERS! - Jabontik, Ayonae Ro
Charm is the most powerful and underused spell in this game since alot of pple are scared of it.

At 12, get charm and go to Eastern Karana (or practice on orcs in CB if ya want)

EK has all the components for a great charm solo zone, many mobs of higher and lower levels, and one or two UNDERCONS. The power of charm is that YOU CHOOSE your pet, unlike the pets that Verant gives us, which even for a necro or mage hit for only max of like 60ish at 60th level heh - your charmed pets hit for that at like 30th level.

Okay, back to level 12 and EK - first, get a butload of SoW potions CANNOT BE DONE WITHOUT SOW or Jboots/TBoots. bind at bridge, go find a GRIFF. he can be yellow to you, its okay, dont be scared (well, you'll be a little scared heh) but mez, tash and charm. Or, since cast time is low on those charms, just tash, kite and charm as he flys at ya. Griffs are UNDERCONS, and slow. these two attributes make them excellent pets. next, simply destroy everything you see. A griff can wipe out 10-12 snakes, hounds, what have you with np. Root or fear what you are fighting, makes recharm easier.

WHEN HE BREAKS CHARM - just recharm as he flys in since cast time is short, since you are standing a ways off (you are a ways off, right, squishy chanter?) After 34, just mez using level 4 mez, recharm, wait till mez breaks, send em in again. CROWD CONTROL IS WHAT WE DO BEST Use it baby!

When you get comfortable, sic him on a Crag spider that will be deep red to you, i think they are like 20ish. Tash and FEAR the spider, even though the griff may be able to tank him, help your griff buddy a bit hes your best friend. Fear works great on the spiders since they slow. What other class can kill 10-12 mobs on one full bar of manna? My record was somwhere over 14 kills, i lost count the text didnt scroll back far enough, and that was in EW at level 34 or so using a Manticore killing reds, yellows, whites, what have you. After 20, move to loio or SB and repeat - gobbies and skellies make good pets, sarnaks not so much, iksars are IMMUNE to charms. However, no significant UNDERCONS in loio so you will only be doing 1 level a day instead of 2, heh.

After loio, go to EW at 29 or so. dervs are excellent pets for fear kiting, they dont have many hp tho so use wisely, but they are UNDERCONS. also Manticores when you get there make GREAT pets, again they are way UNDERCONS, double hit for 115, kick bash, etc poison and a proc, with like 6-7khp. Use the high level ones to kill FG Savages in south of zone near sleepers, they can tank 3-4 in a row, dont fear giants, slow and root. Also, HASTE your pet, makes kills quicker, and if he touches you for more than 2 melee rounds max you dead with or without haste so why not heh. Anyway, im 45 now i average 6-7 kills each time i go out, a level a day approx, hell levels take 2-3 days ive moved on to BW, where it appears the War bone skellys make good pets but not sure yet. Anyway, im still soloing yellow cons at level 45 with np (thanks skelly) USE CHARM SQUISHY CHANTERS!

Strategy Submitted on: Sunday, December 16, 2001

think that should be enough data.

[Buellen]

I agree to a certain extent Kul69.

I been charming solo for past 4 levels in various areas(Sometime have sow most time do not) and i general can only kill about 3 to 4 blue to cons before i go oom. I do die a lot but because i can make back the XP relativly fast it does not hurt as much.

Now if a Enchanter has group support to feed him nana ect then its very possible to do insane amount of damage BUT you will also have a very good chance that enchanter will also be KILLED a lot.

[Frug]

Eye witness evidence counts as evidence in criminal trials - so here's some more.

It's also shown to be way less reliable than most people give it credit for.

[Bazia]

Another guide from 2001

Showing the power of Enchanter and how classic they are with the charm power !

https://web.archive.org/web/20030429023626/http://eq.crgaming.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=6938

12-45 IN 30 DAYS SOLO USE CHARM SQUISHY CHANTERS! - Jabontik, Ayonae Ro
Charm is the most powerful and underused spell in this game since alot of pple are scared of it.

At 12, get charm and go to Eastern Karana (or practice on orcs in CB if ya want)

EK has all the components for a great charm solo zone, many mobs of higher and lower levels, and one or two UNDERCONS. The power of charm is that YOU CHOOSE your pet, unlike the pets that Verant gives us, which even for a necro or mage hit for only max of like 60ish at 60th level heh - your charmed pets hit for that at like 30th level.

Okay, back to level 12 and EK - first, get a butload of SoW potions CANNOT BE DONE WITHOUT SOW or Jboots/TBoots. bind at bridge, go find a GRIFF. he can be yellow to you, its okay, dont be scared (well, you'll be a little scared heh) but mez, tash and charm. Or, since cast time is low on those charms, just tash, kite and charm as he flys at ya. Griffs are UNDERCONS, and slow. these two attributes make them excellent pets. next, simply destroy everything you see. A griff can wipe out 10-12 snakes, hounds, what have you with np. Root or fear what you are fighting, makes recharm easier.

WHEN HE BREAKS CHARM - just recharm as he flys in since cast time is short, since you are standing a ways off (you are a ways off, right, squishy chanter?) After 34, just mez using level 4 mez, recharm, wait till mez breaks, send em in again. CROWD CONTROL IS WHAT WE DO BEST Use it baby!

When you get comfortable, sic him on a Crag spider that will be deep red to you, i think they are like 20ish. Tash and FEAR the spider, even though the griff may be able to tank him, help your griff buddy a bit hes your best friend. Fear works great on the spiders since they slow. What other class can kill 10-12 mobs on one full bar of manna? My record was somwhere over 14 kills, i lost count the text didnt scroll back far enough, and that was in EW at level 34 or so using a Manticore killing reds, yellows, whites, what have you. After 20, move to loio or SB and repeat - gobbies and skellies make good pets, sarnaks not so much, iksars are IMMUNE to charms. However, no significant UNDERCONS in loio so you will only be doing 1 level a day instead of 2, heh.

After loio, go to EW at 29 or so. dervs are excellent pets for fear kiting, they dont have many hp tho so use wisely, but they are UNDERCONS. also Manticores when you get there make GREAT pets, again they are way UNDERCONS, double hit for 115, kick bash, etc poison and a proc, with like 6-7khp. Use the high level ones to kill FG Savages in south of zone near sleepers, they can tank 3-4 in a row, dont fear giants, slow and root. Also, HASTE your pet, makes kills quicker, and if he touches you for more than 2 melee rounds max you dead with or without haste so why not heh. Anyway, im 45 now i average 6-7 kills each time i go out, a level a day approx, hell levels take 2-3 days ive moved on to BW, where it appears the War bone skellys make good pets but not sure yet. Anyway, im still soloing yellow cons at level 45 with np (thanks skelly) USE CHARM SQUISHY CHANTERS!

Strategy Submitted on: Sunday, December 16, 2001

think that should be enough data.

nice a story from luclin proving charms should be broken in classic

[DMN]

Just to be thorough

The post about patch in 2002 about invisibility breaking charms is confusing because there is guides post before that date show the method currently being used.

https://web.archive.org/web/20030429023907/http://eq.crgaming.com/playguides/VIEW.ASP?ID=7213


DERVS IN N RO FROM 12-17 REAL EASY USING CHARM - Riganakos, Druzzil Ro
This guid should be used from 12-17, I did it in 2 days.

The way to really do this to be at derv 3, easiest camp OR derv 1 but it takes alittle more skill and is far from zone, if you still can get derv 3 and only derv 1 you have to keep illusion dark elf up unless you are one or Dorn (WAY undercon) will aggro when you pull.

Now to the fighting part. Con the mobs and look who is the strongest, then soothe the other 2 and do the three spells as follow on the 3rd derv. Mesmerise/tashan/charm, do it fast. Now you have to wait for mesmerise to wear off and he will come running to you as your pet, might want to recharm him when mesmerise breaks just to be safe.

Now soothe 1 derv and pull the other with Chaotic if you are under lvl 16, back up alittle so the chaotic spell almost recycle then send in pet and cast a new chaotic. He should be dead now.

Cast charm again on your derv pet.

On the last derv you only cast Chaotic ONE time because you want you pet to get as low as possible without dying, you might have to cast chaotic 1 more time but not offen.

Now park the pet using then run away at a safe distance, target yourself and cast invisibility then hurry to target the derv that is running towards you now and keep pressing root untill you cast it on him. Now simlpy choke him and throw in a chaotic or 2 to speed things up.

I ALWAYS cast root again before choke because normally after a root/choke and you cast choke again then shortly after the root will break.

At 16-17 simply remove the chaotic and replace it with sanity warp but dont use the L16 mesmerise spell Enthrall because it will last 48 seconds and your charm is most likely not stick that long.

NOTE: SoW (Spirit of the Wolf) is great to have here just in case. If charm breaks you will have 2 angry dervs on you and you can run away a great distance then recharm you derv and you will be ok, without SoW youŽll have to zone if your not brave enough and try to get off a charm while they hit on you. You could root the derv your attacking but then he/she wont walk away at low health and still beat on your derv pet.

Strategy Submitted on: Monday, December 17, 2001

hope this is useful

PS its not balanced but it is Classic.

This is why I, a guy from closed beta, am i annoyed by a lot of things related to alleged contemporary "evidence". Idiots have/had the internet, too. Why would you mez an outdoor mob only to tash it a second later. then charm when you could save the mana and tash/charm and not have to wait of mez duration or mez mana cost. Every tick of the mez is a tick of charm breaking, too. Eventually it won't be relevant due to mana regen rate but at low levels mezing somethig for no good reason is a massive waste of mana and efficiency.

[Izmael]

why do I see Enchanters charming with no issues in the middle of dungeons having no escape route?

- game is 20 years old now, people know most everything
- twinking
- losing exp isn't as scary today as back then
- people now know the right spots. Nobody is solo charming Runnyeye king room or whatever for exp.
- 60 fps today instead of 5 fps back then
- reliable internet today vs shitty dialup back then
- i could go on


tl;dr: dont be mad

[Meiva]

I dont agree. A lot of fuck bois in this thread.

[senna]

chanters are the silent Illuminati

lotta folks about to eat bullet sandwiches in this thread

[Izmael]

So when they nerfed Bard AE and one of the reasons was we used to have dial up and it was harder, based on what you just said you agree Enchanter charm should be nerfed for the same reason?

They nerfed bard AE because it was disrupting zones, not because it was a broken mechanic. Enchanters don't disrupt any zones.

Also you need to go out more.

[Obrae]

So much passion, so much strawman tho.

I don't even think you are bullshitting. I think you believe what you say. However, find the evidence of the mechanics. Your opinion matters as much as mine = nothing. Memories from 20 years ago are not valid. Opinions from 20 years ago are not valid.

Find evidence that it was working as it is working today. The problem is the implementation actually in p99. It as never been proven to work like this before so why are we having charm so reliable here ?

[Izmael]

Find evidence that it was working as it is working today. The problem is the implementation actually in p99. It as never been proven to work like this before so why are we having charm so reliable here ?

It is implemented on P99 the way it is, because the devs decided so. If you have proof they have made a mistake, provide it and I'm sure they will look into it.

Anything else is speculation and a mere waste of bandwidth.

[Aeaolena]

Playing an Enchanter for the first time here.

This may have already been said - but there's a lot of things enchanters know now about strategy, 20 years later, that likely true-classic enchanters may have fumbled with.

I know if I want a charm to last longest while in a group, I need to wear some cha gear, find a barely green mob, tash that mob, and put it farther from me on /pet guard here so I have time to stand and recharm it when it breaks, have rune up, etc. Do we know that beginning enchanters in 1999 classic knew this?

Kind of like when Halo came out one player rose above all the rest. Strafing backwards around walls, taking ammo packs before other players had a chance to get them,etc. It changed the way future players played. Now those things are standard in first-person-shooters. I'm not saying enchanters aren't great in classic, just pointing out that they have advantage of learning from 20 years of enchanter mistakes.

TL: DR - those pets are green to your enchanter, that's why they are lasting longer.

[Obrae]

Playing an Enchanter for the first time here.

This may have already been said - but there's a lot of things enchanters know now about strategy, 20 years later, that likely true-classic enchanters may have fumbled with.

I know if I want a charm to last longest while in a group, I need to wear some cha gear, find a barely green mob, tash that mob, and put it farther from me on /pet guard here so I have time to stand and recharm it when it breaks, have rune up, etc. Do we know that beginning enchanters in 1999 classic knew this?

Kind of like when Halo came out one player rose above all the rest. Strafing backwards around walls, taking ammo packs before other players had a chance to get them,etc. It changed the way future players played. Now those things are standard in first-person-shooters. I'm not saying enchanters aren't great in classic, just pointing out that they have advantage of learning from 20 years of enchanter mistakes.

TL: DR - those pets are green to your enchanter, that's why they are lasting longer.

People were better than us back then, we are doing great because we are riding on the shoulders of people that played before us. P99 is just cheese and abuse :)

[Lhord99]

In before your vs, you’re!

Shit, didn’t even make it past page one.

Your move, satan.

[zodium]

They nerfed bard AE because it was disrupting zones, not because it was a broken mechanic. Enchanters don't disrupt any zones.

Also you need to go out more.

tbf enchanters constantly steal mobs from other camps, including nameds

[Man0warr]

I killed Nagafen in Classic in a raid. We used nearly 100 people from levels 40-50, with rotating buff groups and after buffing up you would log out to the chat rooms to hang out. This process took over an hour which is why people logged out to save buffs.

People had terrible knowledge of gear (no one was wearing full MR resists) and most were just bad players compared to the average player on Project 1999.

It was basically a zerg, with everyone constantly getting feared and dying to Lava Breath. The only way we were successful was the sheer number of players.

Throw in most of these people were on 56k modems or ISDN lines (DSL wasn't widely available yet) and you had constant LDs with this amount of people.

[Buellen]

@Bazia

OK sure it was post when luclin release But the information is still relevant. Could there have been some change with patches from velious to luclin that possibly changed East karna Sure.

But the tactics although not refined as many of p1999 player base uses, still shows information that is relevant to the discussion in this thread.

With Respect

[Bazia]

ive kinda transcended the classic or not argument, one class should not be more powerful than an entire group that doesnt include said class

it's just stupid and considering ENC was designed to be a support class but it's functioning as anything but

everyone in a group with an ENC supports the ENC while they carry with charm DPS not the other way around as intended

[Cen]

i also recall a lot of people charming mobs into buggy hilarity and using them to set loose the havoc of PoD on guards due to faction mattering for charmed pets or something. i guess thats kind of unrelated, but yeah, charming was .. different, if nothing else

it wasn't as widespread, but bards and necros could also fear kite things into corners and free xp. that must have been efficient, but no one told me bout it. it did happen though, even if a lot of us don't remember it.. charm may have been similar, may not. dont know for sure, needs citation

Here is the low down, because I used this bug on Rallos Zek to do bad things.

In classic, Charm had an interesting operation, in that any NPC you conned a certain faction to would con this way to your pet. This meant an aimable guard would now treat your pet as an amiable ally. Guards will assist the aggroed pet when you send him at Priest of Discord, and they don't assist Priest of Discord. Now on Rallos Zek, this extended to players. Not everyone learned of this bug, but you could send a guard from miles and miles away at any player you were in PvP range with, so id take a rat and bring him to guard, send him at an enemy player I could see very far away, and they'd haul ass over there to kill the player, who would be utterly confused.

[One Tin Soldier]

Not that my 2 cents really matters but since this thread is mostly just based on anecdotal evidence I'll toss mine in anyway. I started in late 1999 and played past velious. I know with certainty that enchanters did not use charm very much at all back then.

As to why they didn't I can't say for certain. I suppose it could have been, as some in this thread have theorized, that the average intelligence of the human race was lower in those years. Or it could be, as those of the opposing viewpoint have suggested, that charm simply didn't work as well back then, however preposterous that might sound. I couldn't prove anything either way.

One other thing I'll add because someone mentioned it early in this discussion was that the lull/calm line of spells also didn't work very well in old EQ. Again I can only offer my anecdotal evidence but I am absolutely certain that this is true. My main up through velious was a paladin so I had those spells. I know that they were so unreliable that I wouldn't even try using them on a group with more than three mobs. Usually I would only try it if there were only two mobs near each other.

Calm got resisted a lot and when mobs resisted they would agro so it wasn't safe to even try using it on a large group. I never actually kept track but it seemed to me that it got resisted at least 50% of the time (no proof though). It was so unreliable that I usually wouldn't even keep it memorized even if I was pulling.

Some time later on they did change something that made that line of spells work much better but that was after I had retired my paladin which was after Luclin came out. I don't remember exactly when it changed but I know it was at least after Luclin. I also don't know what they changed that made those spells work better. It might have been a change directly on those spells or it might have had something to do with MR of mobs in general.

Oh, and while were talking about classic/not classic stuff. The way mobs flee is not classic on P99. Back in the day when a mob was fleeing it would run in a straight line forever. That is why it was possible to fear things into walls and then just stand behind them beating on them. It doesn't work that way on p99.

[Buellen]

Some more charm information

1999 post everlore. Beguile spell discussion last post

https://web.archive.org/web/20010714081507/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=5093&mode=details&spname=Cajoling+Whispers&type=


In groups have your tanks between you and the pet so they can attempt
to intercept and taunt when it breaks. It may take several rounds for
them to get the former pet off you, but at least they should be able to
taunt the non-charmed one away.

Really talented enchanters can even solo mobs of three or more by
charming and using the pet to attack one mob while they themselves
root and nuke the third (or even entrance a fourth). This is a little
like juggling knives - very impressive if done well, but very bloody
unless everything goes just right :) Requires a very cool head and
fast and correct casting to keep all four knives in the air (or mobs off
of you as the cast may be).

All in all, a very fun and useful spell that is dangerous if
you don't know what you're doing.


other post in this spell discuss how short this spell last even with high cha 182 <shrug> dont know what to say .

[Buellen]

This discussion of the enchanter spell allure has more concrete duration of various level of charisma.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010714080806/http://everlore.com/magic/Magic.asp?ID=5134&mode=details&spname=Allure&type=

I have had differing amounts of success with this
spell. On mobs 30ish and below and 220 charisma and
tash first I can have this reliably stick for up to
four or five minutes. On mobs 40ish to low 40s it's
much more of a crapshoot.

Still, Allure is the only spell I know that has a chance
to stop a fire giant or ice giant in its tracks. In
situations where mez doesn't work at all, this is
the crowd control tool of choice.

[Izmael]

In groups have your tanks between you and the pet so they can attempt
to intercept and taunt when it breaks.

This is so cute but it gives a decent idea of the state of the EQ knowledge back then.

Also keep in mind that the enchanters (just like any int caster) back then went for INT, not CHA.

[TheDudeAbides]

No Developer worth his salt would design a class as powerful as Enchanter is on P99

Charm has been laughably broken for 10 years on this server. It has now created a form of solo gameplay that was never supposed to be possible in the original vision of Everquest

It's called Balance. Charm in it's current form on P99 is WAY OUT of balance

There is no risk and the rewards are enormous. It's like playing Poker and having the winning hand every single time. The spell is supposed to be a gamble with huge payoffs if RNG rolls in your favor. Used sparingly, for when you are in a tight encounter and want to roll the dice in an effort to get out of it.

Not a God Mode class running around with an insane pet that puts a real pet class to shame.

To be honest this one spell has completely skewered Raiding on P99, especially in Classic. It trivializes encounters to the point where if you can't charm as a caster, you're considered "not wanted" or inferior.

It's a slap in the face to other caster classes and it needs to be fixed immediately

[jacob54311]

This fits with Charm breaking more often too and enchanters have more trouble getting things under control.

I'm not seeing that. Charm breaking has always been a possibility. It's just a strategy for dealing with a charm break. Doesn't tell us anything about how often it was happening.

[Bazia]

No Developer worth his salt would design a class as powerful as Enchanter is on P99

Charm has been laughably broken for 10 years on this server. It has now created a form of solo gameplay that was never supposed to be possible in the original vision of Everquest

It's called Balance. Charm in it's current form on P99 is WAY OUT of balance

There is no risk and the rewards are enormous. It's like playing Poker and having the winning hand every single time. The spell is supposed to be a gamble with huge payoffs if RNG rolls in your favor. Used sparingly, for when you are in a tight encounter and want to roll the dice in an effort to get out of it.

Not a God Mode class running around with an insane pet that puts a real pet class to shame.

To be honest this one spell has completely skewered Raiding on P99, especially in Classic. It trivializes encounters to the point where if you can't charm as a caster, you're considered "not wanted" or inferior.

It's a slap in the face to other caster classes and it needs to be fixed immediately

thank god some common sense reinforcements

[Tecmos Deception]

No it's just more supporting evidence for charm being broken. It's noting that your tanks better see the charmed mob break and run at you vs standing back in a corner like people do on P99 and managing your own pet breaks with ease.

No. It's demonstrating that the enchanter didn't know how to manage a charm break. How often charm breaks happen has nothing to do with the correct way to handle the break. And "have your tank intercept it with a taunt" is not the right way.


People strawmanning "yep the human race probably wasn't as intelligent 20 years ago" are showing the human race isn't very intelligent TODAY either. We didn't need to be dumber 20 years ago to be bad at a brand new game or for the Prima guides and random-ass allakhazam comments to not do much to help players thoroughly learn the intricacies of EQ. The human race wasn't dumber 50 years ago than today, but that didn't stop people from not knowing cigarettes are bad for you. Something like that took decades to slowly get ingrained into the minds of a majority of people, and still today there are a non-trivial number of people who don't believe it. Why is it so hard to believe that people didn't fully understand how to use charm in p99 20 years ago?

I'm not even arguing it's correct here. I'm just pointing out that the arguments made for nerfing are non sequiturs.

[Polixa]

Regarding Naggy vs charmed imp, how did the imp charm not get dispelled? Naggy has an AE multislot dispel he should have fired off regularly through the whole battle. It shouldn't be feasible for charm to last the whole fight, but that's what I read happened.

[DMN]

I think nag only dispel your top buff. So as long as they set it up so the charm was well down on the bottom...

[gkmarino]

Buff stack protection before charm.. usually debuffs that fade.. then override those gaps with positive buffs while it is charmed.

[Bazia]

very easy to bury charms, everything about enc is easy thats why its becoming a bigger and bigger problem

half the server is playing one as an alt or main and soloing camps that otherwise would be going to full groups

very stupid, hopefully we see some refreshed interests from the staff regarding the abuse of charm

[Solist]

Regarding Naggy vs charmed imp, how did the imp charm not get dispelled? Naggy has an AE multislot dispel he should have fired off regularly through the whole battle. It shouldn't be feasible for charm to last the whole fight, but that's what I read happened.

giants FR immune, imps super high FR.

[Gatorsmash]

If Classic enchanter charm is 5 on a scale of 10, Project 1999 enchanter charm has always been a 7.

It's close to super OP, but I'm not going to lose my mind about it. A 20 year recreation of a game isn't going to get everything perfect. Anybody who actually played an enchanter during classic and the expansions prior to AA's and think this charm duration is classic- you are a fucking idiot. It was never that dependable in a group, it could break in 2 seconds or 2 mins every time.

Edit- durations were soo unpredictable pre AA's 1-60 it was difficult to verify charisma even effected charm duration. Wasn't till a dev confirmed it at one of those conventions if I remember correctly

[TheDudeAbides]

No. It's demonstrating that the enchanter didn't know how to manage a charm break. How often charm breaks happen has nothing to do with the correct way to handle the break. And "have your tank intercept it with a taunt" is not the right way.


People strawmanning "yep the human race probably wasn't as intelligent 20 years ago" are showing the human race isn't very intelligent TODAY either. We didn't need to be dumber 20 years ago to be bad at a brand new game or for the Prima guides and random-ass allakhazam comments to not do much to help players thoroughly learn the intricacies of EQ. The human race wasn't dumber 50 years ago than today, but that didn't stop people from not knowing cigarettes are bad for you. Something like that took decades to slowly get ingrained into the minds of a majority of people, and still today there are a non-trivial number of people who don't believe it. Why is it so hard to believe that people didn't fully understand how to use charm in p99 20 years ago?

I'm not even arguing it's correct here. I'm just pointing out that the arguments made for nerfing are non sequiturs.

People had access to the exact same spells 20 years ago they have today

There were many talented and clever players back then that knew the mechanics inside and out

The issue is not handling charm breaks

The issue is the reliability of Charm. This has been an issue on P99 from the very beginning. Everyone knew it was broken 10 years ago and nothing has ever been done about it

[Hroth]

Classic "experience" or classic mechanics, what is it that is actually more important to a classic server?

I personally think charm is way more powerful here than it ever was in '99, but for arguments sake let's say the P99 devs got the mechanics exactly right. The experience of 99% of the people who played in 1999 was that charm was far more unreliable and was only used as a gimmick or a last ditch effort. Even if they are correct, the mechanics as they exist here lead to game play that doesn't match classic. If the "P99 classic" charm mechanics were changed to be far more unreliable, the P99 experience would be much more similar to classic.

The classic mechanics of hybrid exp penalties and standard ZEMs also leads to very unclassic behaviors. In 1999 those things were not known at all, or only known by a tiny fraction of the playerbase. Consequently, people's class choice, whom they would group with, and where they would hunt was not at all affected by those classic mechanics. On P99 those mechanics dominate game play decisions. Ironically, removing those classic mechanics would actually encourage classic game play.

Why doesn't this server allow boxing? Classic mechanics certainly didn't prevent it.
We all know it isn't allowed because allowing it would destroy the classic experience. Imho, it is stupid to allow other classic mechanics to achieve the same effect. I'm here for the game play, not for mechanics that are perfectly true to ones that the world didn't even know existed in 1999.

As an aside, I think charm may not have been possible to this extent in 1999 just because the population wouldn't allow it. Peak time zone populations were 100+ in lguk and 70+ in solb on my server. No one was going to allow an enchanter to solo a camp or lock up mobs to kill when there was a small army of people at the zone line just waiting for their name to come up on a list so they could get some exp. Heck, I remember it was common to have 2 full groups inside Oggok killing guards. No one was going to allow a single necro to solo the whole zone. Lower level zones were not any better either. The world was a crowded place.

[Ligma]

Green pet pulling was a thing starting in luclin yet people still insisted on using monks and bards to pull for several expansions. Literally any mob could be split instantly and be moved anywhere in the zone with no social agro.

People just weren't very good, and mostly are still pretty bad. Most guilds have always been carried by a small core, competent crew. And that's still true today.

[Rooj]

Channeling. You get it at level 1 without training and it works insanely often from the start. Channeling used to be something that built up over time but here you're like a level 50 channeler from start of game.

I've always wondered about this. I honestly could've sworn Channeling was pretty useless back then... and that if you got hit, you were damn near always interrupted. Whereas on P99 I feel like I can basically cast whatever I want, whenever I want.

[Buellen]

So after all these pages

I now see that the people saying it is not working right on p1999 think might be off but there is no proof of this with in era data i just cant find it.

Has anyone ask/looked where the formula for charming was based for project 1999? I am sure the devs are more knowledgeable about this matter?

data from 2000/2001/2002 as that is what is copyrighted by the company holding the site at the time of wayback capture.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040624164515/http://eq.crgaming.com/faq/faq.asp?Action=Show&Class=Enchanter&Page=2

( i cannot seem to figure out how to copy but this other site quoted it.)

https://web.archive.org/web/20050224030149/http://www.therunes.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1148

Q: What spell types are affected by Charisma?

A: Charisma does not directly affect any spell. Charisma affects what are known as 'saving throws' or 'secondary throws'.

When you cast a charm spell or mesmerise spell, the monster first checks against your level v it's level, then it checks against its resistance, then it checks against your charisma.

With duration spells such as charms, each tick the monster gets a saving throw and this process is repeated. If any one of these checks is successful (ie: you win the roll) then the spell holds.


Be aware thought that each of these checks is not just a 50 - 50 chance, formulas are in place which give each of these checks more or less of a chance for you to succeed.

Charisma has the smallest chance of succeeding. Your Level and the resistance type check have the greatest chance of you succeeding.

Hope this helps someone

[sentinel]

Chiming in -- played from day one vanilla to PoP.

Charm was absolutely not used as much back then. As mentioned here, it was more of a CC tool (which was likely its intended use).

I think we all agree charm is overpowered and probably game breaking (especially in vanilla), but unless we have the numbers it is hard to say whether it is any different now than back then.

My guess is charm was coded differently back then. I, and most other EQ nerds, loved reading Everlore, CastersRealm (don't see that getting mentioned as much by you youngins), and of course the official Verant forums. If it could have been abused like this, folks would have kicked and screamed. Chanter was a group support class back then.

[bwe]

P99 and EQEmu overtuned Charm and/or undertuned resists based on their best guess at recreating classic values. Now we have to prove that it's too overpowered instead of having to prove that the current power level is the way it was in classic. People are too attached to their OP (but super fun) enchanters for anything to ever change. /thread

[Vizax_Xaziv]

If it could have been abused like this, folks would have kicked and screamed. Chanter was a group support class back then.

See now people on P99, in their defense of Chanters, most commonly use the lines of "we just didn't have as much knowledge back then" and "we were less skilled at the game."

But here's the thing: all the knowledge we DO have now is the result of experimentation back then. On Tallon Zek we had a large number of extremely capable players at the endgame.

I played a Wizard in Vanilla and spent *LOTS* of time in the computer lab @ school on Everlore and Castersrealm. Like you said, if Enchanters (specifically Charm) was as powerful back then, it absolutely would have been nerfed. At the VERY LEAST the strength of the spell would have become common knowledge.

Are we supposed to believe that no Chanters in the top-end guilds like FOH and Triton ever experimented with their Charm Spells and/or Charisma builds? They figured out essentially EVERYTHING else about the game but never realized that Charm was overpowered?

I don't buy it!

[Ligma]

Are we supposed to believe that no Chanters in the top-end guilds like FOH and Triton ever experimented with their Charm Spells and/or Charisma builds? They figured out essentially EVERYTHING else about the game but never realized that Charm was overpowered?

The first AoW kills from LoS were completely dependent on charm.

[gnomishfirework]

I played a enchanter during velious.

I didn’t charm cause it was dangerous and would get me killed on breaks. I don’t recall it always breaking in 10 seconds. It’s just that we didn’t know to snare charmed mobs and keep them debuffed on resists. Didn’t see that until post PoP.

I think it was knowledge, not mechanics.

Still, if what people are claiming is true should be easy to find proof. Dunno why they’re making posts when a simple petition thread with the proof they are basing their opinions on would work better.

I’m guessing this thread was simply made by someone who is wrong.

I mean, it’s simple matter of your memories are clearly faulty since you all cannot find one shred of proof.

[Buellen]

Hello again

I have been trying to find data to support the folks who say its wrong here on p1999. I have not found any parse in era and only found 12 pages of post from the charm spells on this link.

https://web.archive.org/web/20041111051202/http://eq.crgaming.com/spells/spell.asp?Id=38&Page=12

So far my personal experience with charm spell here on Teal matches a lot of the same experiences the posters on that link. We have more than a few posters showing charm lasting from 2 to 8 min.

I have not done any research into higher version of this spell line so take this info for what it is.

[Bazia]

People had access to the exact same spells 20 years ago they have today

There were many talented and clever players back then that knew the mechanics inside and out

The issue is not handling charm breaks

The issue is the reliability of Charm. This has been an issue on P99 from the very beginning. Everyone knew it was broken 10 years ago and nothing has ever been done about it

thats actually not true it was acknowledged to be too strong and nerfed before on p99 blue when groups of like 6 (with 4 encs) were making absurd progress in sky

problem was the nerfbat was WAY too soft, but prior to that nerf it was even more absurd if you can imagine that

[Vizax_Xaziv]

The first AoW kills from LoS were completely dependent on charm.

Yes. And Velious-era Kael raids are about the earliest I remember Charm being heavily used.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

prior to that nerf it was even more absurd if you can imagine that

Hah! Seriously? How long ago did this nerf occur?

[Nirgon]

The people trying to charm that you remember weren't covered in top +CHA gear

[Bazia]

The people trying to charm that you remember weren't covered in top +CHA gear

you dont need top +CHA gear, it's trivial playing a charm enc on p99

[Bazia]

Hah! Seriously? How long ago did this nerf occur?

somewhere like 6-7 years ago i believe

[Nirgon]

I have 199 cha buffed right now, it breaks a fair amount on the specs I'm doing. Without that gear on and buffs, would be worthless.

Yes. And Velious-era Kael raids are about the earliest I remember Charm being heavily used.


Yeah people caught on to needing CHA gear

[Bazia]

yeah what do i know about playing enc not like i was the most geared enc in red99 history (140-17 leaderboard K/D btw)

solo'd damn near naked from 1-60 and it was a fuckin BREEZE

[derpcake2]

yeah what do i know about playing enc

Correct, move to resolved.

[Bazia]

Correct, move to resolved.

:rolleyes:

[mycoolrausch]

As mentioned here, it was more of a CC tool (which was likely its intended use).


I don't think so. The spell duration gives us some insight into the designer's intentions. If they wanted it to be short duration, they could've made it a short duration spell, like Mez and Roots.

It seems like common sense that when you have NPCs that are overtuned for their level (more HP and DPS than a player) to make up for their deficits in AI and predictable behavior, and you give the player the ability to take control of that NPC, you should probably nerf that NPC in some way now that its not under the control of predictable AI . This never occurred to them. But then again they thought druids deserved a 10% heal nerf, and no heals past level 29 all the way through Kunark. Great vision, but not so good on the details.

[Videri]

Mobs do get nerfed when you charm them.

[Izmael]

With 255 CHA at level 60, a tashed pet 12-15 levels below will sometimes break 5 times in a row just a few seconds apart, driving the enc oom and forcing him to blur / root / camp / dazzle / whatever. So it's all about RNG really.

Also today we know how to handle breaks and are ready for them when they happen. Back then, a charm break sent the enc into panic mode "omg this mob is pissed at me HEAL ME OMG *splat* I'm never memming a charm spell again"

Back then lots of things didn't happen. Monks didn't solo fungi king. Warriors didn't solo Ragefire.
Shamans didn't solo Aylish. Druids didn't solo PoM. 2 mages weren't duoing Phinny. Necros weren't soloing Fear. And so on.

[Bazia]

With 255 CHA at level 60, a tashed pet 12-15 levels below will sometimes break 5 times in a row just a few seconds apart, driving the enc oom and forcing him to blur / root / camp / dazzle / whatever. So it's all about RNG really.

Also today we know how to handle breaks and are ready for them when they happen. Back then, a charm break sent the enc into panic mode "omg this mob is pissed at me HEAL ME OMG *splat* I'm never memming a charm spell again"

Back then lots of things didn't happen. Monks didn't solo fungi king. Warriors didn't solo Ragefire.
Shamans didn't solo Aylish. Druids didn't solo PoM. 2 mages weren't duoing Phinny. Necros weren't soloing Fear. And so on.

people were too stupid to realize they could use stun spells which are built into their own kit to manage a broken charm

got it

[Rooj]

I dunno, I don't recall people not knowing about CHA back then. I was never an Enchanter and I always knew CHA affected Charm. People figured it out pretty early I believe? I think CHA is one of the easiest stats to raise also, not to mention ENCs get a CHA buff lol.

[Ligma]

Mobs do get nerfed when you charm them.

Yeah, in GoD

[Tilien]

I think part of this goes back not only to what dedicated players knew, but what casual players knew.

On P99 most players are fairly dedicated and know their own class inside and out as well as every other class in their group. On live this wasn't the case, not because people were stupid but because a larger percent of the player base were playing casually.

On p99 what percent of players dedicate time to learning about game mechanics? 50%? 70%?

On live what percent were doing the same? 20%? Probably most people wanted to hop on and whack a few orcs for an hour or two. It wasn't what was known as optimal, but what fraction of the player base cared to learn or act on it.

[cd288]

Half of P99 code base is from random old sites like that.

And there it is, the admission on an old classic site that Charm isn't worth it even in groups most of the time.

This post is so ignorant and dumb that I honestly feel like it might be a troll post.

You have to realize, we've had 20 years to min/max every single EQ strategy. Charming is one of those that has been super-focused on. People didn't understand the mechanics of Charm breaks back then. They also hadn't perfected the typical Charm killing strategy and therefore many Enchanters didn't think about things like rooting the non-pet mob, tashing things to reduce Magic Resistance, and how their level difference versus the Charmed pet could affect break frequency.

There's no coding difference between P99 and EQ classic era Charm that makes it operate any differently on P99. People have just min/maxed the strategy and have way more knowledge than they did back then. That's why it seems more OP than it was in the classic era, but in actuality it's not.

[derpcake2]

:rolleyes:

Unsure why you didn't run around naked on blue and red, given that you seem to believe gear is worthless.

Don't see other chanters do it either.

Weird, but resolved.

[bum3]

Also today we know how to handle breaks and are ready for them when they happen. Back then, a charm break sent the enc into panic mode "omg this mob is pissed at me HEAL ME OMG *splat* I'm never memming a charm spell again"

I disagree... train after train after train by the same people in zones resulting from pet groups charms breaking on the wrong time. People no learny the charm is the dangerous.

[keithjinternet]

fwiw, I played a level 65ish Enchanter on live from 1999 - 2003. We never used charm. Ever. It's not because we didn't know to have high charisma (mine was 210+ buffed) or because we didn't use tash before charming. It's because the spell itself was unreliable.

Why else would they have made a level SIXTY spell, when Kunark was released, that guaranteed an unbroken charm? Is that spell even relevant with today's mechanics?

And this isn't even to mention the druids or necros who are also using charm to solo. This was virtually unheard of on live because, again, the spell wasn't reliable -- especially for those with low charisma / inability to lower magic resistance on their target.

Unlike today, when I see druids charming effectively because the spell itself is so reliable.

[bwe]

Incorrect, people in 1999 were mentally impaired

[Ligma]

Let's be real, most people right now are too dumb to effectively charm, or play their class period. And that's people dedicated to playing an emulator 20 years later.

[Zill]

Wow, I’m a casul noob and I didn’t realize Enchanters were so OP according to this thread. Why am I wasting time on a Druid?

Based on all the hatred and whining, I am now inspired to roll an Enchanter and bend this silly elf simulator to my liking.

[Ferahgo]

Enchanter charm is OP! Nerf!!! NERF!!!

https://i.imgur.com/czlrjFS.jpg

[cd288]

fwiw, I played a level 65ish Enchanter on live from 1999 - 2003. We never used charm. Ever. It's not because we didn't know to have high charisma (mine was 210+ buffed) or because we didn't use tash before charming. It's because the spell itself was unreliable.

Why else would they have made a level SIXTY spell, when Kunark was released, that guaranteed an unbroken charm? Is that spell even relevant with today's mechanics?

And this isn't even to mention the druids or necros who are also using charm to solo. This was virtually unheard of on live because, again, the spell wasn't reliable -- especially for those with low charisma / inability to lower magic resistance on their target.

Unlike today, when I see druids charming effectively because the spell itself is so reliable.

Sounds like a lot of "I remember it being this way and so that's how it was and should be" without posting any actual evidence.

Always surprising how people will grab their pitchforks over something and be so adamant about something that they can't even find evidence for.

[sentinel]

Do we have any evidence that the current charm mechanics are not broken? In other words, is it just a best guess? I legitimately don't know.

The Imp tanking Naggy video really is eye opening. That straights up break one of the most important classic encounters and was certainly NOT how it was done in classic (which I think this project is trying to emulate?).

Just wait for the planes. With Allure, all these chanters are going to charm trash and absolutely destroy the place, no tanks will ever be needed. Again, not very classic.

[cd288]

Do we have any evidence that the current charm mechanics are not broken? In other words, is it just a best guess? I legitimately don't know.

The Imp tanking Naggy video really is eye opening. That straights up break one of the most important classic encounters and was certainly NOT how it was done in classic (which I think this project is trying to emulate?).

Just wait for the planes. With Allure, all these chanters are going to charm trash and absolutely destroy the place, no tanks will ever be needed. Again, not very classic.

So confused by this post. When on Blue have you seen tanks not be needed in raids? lol

[Dolalin]

Summoning might not be working correctly here, the pet owner themselves would have been summoned on Live, or so I believe based on the evidence.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341150

If at any point that imp was at the top of the hate list the chanter should have been toast.

[keithjinternet]

Sounds like a lot of "I remember it being this way and so that's how it was and should be" without posting any actual evidence.

Always surprising how people will grab their pitchforks over something and be so adamant about something that they can't even find evidence for.

How can you post evidence of something that didn't need to be fixed? Most patches are to nerf or change something. How can I prove that something worked? It's kind of a catch 22.

[sentinel]

So confused by this post. When on Blue have you seen tanks not be needed in raids? lol

When folks start clearing the planes, they'll likely use charmed pets for everything. It is just easier. Majority of DPS will also come from charmed pets given the high number of chanters on green/teal and trash level gear classic gives melee dps/tanks.

[Ligma]

The imp wasn't even tanking at all so I don't know what dude is talking about. They kept a tank up for like 10 minutes. Charm is just necessary when none of your dps can even do anything because of level and gear.

[Ligma]

When folks start clearing the planes, they'll likely use charmed pets for everything. It is just easier. Majority of DPS will also come from charmed pets

This is true in PoP, an era people agree charm got better because of AA and better charm spells. Except charm wasn't used in every raid or group. Despite being able to charm mobs in fire that don't summon and quad for nearly 800, people didn't charm on raids and most table groups were kite groups. Why is that?

[cd288]

How can you post evidence of something that didn't need to be fixed? Most patches are to nerf or change something. How can I prove that something worked? It's kind of a catch 22.

I'm not a coding expert, but I assume most if not all of what is on P99 is based on some sort of source coding. So, if you think Charm is overpowered compared to what it was on live at launch, then it's probably based on EQ code from a time when Charm was that powerful. If that code is from later in the timeline, then presumably there would be some sort of patch note or evidence at some point saying that they had upgraded the effectiveness of Charm.

If evidence of the claims can't be presented, then it has to be presumed that the current coding is accurate for the classic era. For every person who says that they're 100% sure that something worked X way, there's another person who says they're 100% sure it worked Y way. Personal memories or anecdotes are insufficient to change something. That's just the way it is.

[sentinel]

I'm not a coding expert, but I assume most if not all of what is on P99 is based on some sort of source coding. So, if you think Charm is overpowered compared to what it was on live at launch, then it's probably based on EQ code from a time when Charm was that powerful.

So we don't know and that's fine. Ultimately this is whatever the admins want it to be. Considering it is free and well run, that's a great deal.

But I do wonder where they got their numbers/code regarding not just Charm, but lull, resists, etc.

[sentinel]

This is true in PoP, an era people agree charm got better because of AA and better charm spells. Except charm wasn't used in every raid or group. Despite being able to charm mobs in fire that don't summon and quad for nearly 800, people didn't charm on raids and most table groups were kite groups. Why is that?

I really can't speak to PoP and why people did things. I quit during that era.

I'm just saying, get ready for charm DPS/tanking in the classic planes. Given the huge numbers of chanters it would foolish to rely on 9/31 rogue DPS or 8/24 yaks when you have 100+ hitting mobs a chanter can easily charm/haste. One druid can keep ensnare on a ton of charmed mobs and bam, easy mode.

[bum3]

I really can't speak to PoP and why people did things. I quit during that era.

I'm just saying, get ready for charm DPS/tanking in the classic planes. Given the huge numbers of chanters it would foolish to rely on 9/31 rogue DPS or 8/24 yaks when you have 100+ hitting mobs a chanter can easily charm/haste. One druid can keep ensnare on a ton of charmed mobs and bam, easy mode.

Easy mode? No thanks. I'll stick to the classic way and face the wall before i lose all my packets.

[sentinel]

Honestly, I'm with you. Why make it harder on yourself relying on players for tanking/dps? You have murder gorillas in fear ready to help you mow trash down for lewtz and access to CT as fast as possible.

[cd288]

I really can't speak to PoP and why people did things. I quit during that era.

I'm just saying, get ready for charm DPS/tanking in the classic planes. Given the huge numbers of chanters it would foolish to rely on 9/31 rogue DPS or 8/24 yaks when you have 100+ hitting mobs a chanter can easily charm/haste. One druid can keep ensnare on a ton of charmed mobs and bam, easy mode.

Of course you will have DPS from Charmed mobs. But I have never seen a planar raid rely on charmed mobs as a main tank lol, that's just dumb to say.

[loramin]

I'm not a coding expert, but I assume most if not all of what is on P99 is based on some sort of source coding. So, if you think Charm is overpowered compared to what it was on live at launch, then it's probably based on EQ code from a time when Charm was that powerful. If that code is from later in the timeline, then presumably there would be some sort of patch note or evidence at some point saying that they had upgraded the effectiveness of Charm.

If evidence of the claims can't be presented, then it has to be presumed that the current coding is accurate for the classic era. For every person who says that they're 100% sure that something worked X way, there's another person who says they're 100% sure it worked Y way. Personal memories or anecdotes are insufficient to change something. That's just the way it is.

No one has access to the original code. Literally no one: not even Daybreak (the current rights holder) has the original EQ server source code, at least as far as anyone knows.

And that's the frustrating thing about all this, because there's this mix of "known exploits" and "unknown exploits", ie. stuff that was wrong on live but Nilbog's fixed it here, and stuff that was right on live but Nilbog has it wrong here.

Nilbog has taken a "fix exploits, leave broken negative stuff" approach to making Green/Teal (not) classic, which is a completely reasonable option, and makes total sense. BUT... as with anything, the devil is in the details, and the details work out to Nilbog nerfing the hell out of (say) Mages (in the one era they're kinda decent, before they become complete crap), because they had very obvious things that he can see and fix (or in the case of spells, leave unfixed).

Meanwhile, because there's no proof one way or the other, Nilbog just goes by whatever research he's got when it comes to Enchanter resists ... even if that makes the most powerful class in the game, now and through Velious (ie. forever here), even more powerful.

At some point I truly hope Nilbog will realize that, like it or not, he's become a game designer, and when viewed holistically (ie. not separately, in isolation) some of his design decisions are making the game worse, and less classic. When he blindly fixes only the obvious "exploits", which tend to fall more heavily on "weak" classes, simply because they're the ones that are clear and known, while ignoring the obvious (but virtually impossible to prove) imbalances in the most powerful class, he's making one of those choices ... implicitly, whether he means to or not.

It doesn't matter whether Enchanters had better or worse charm resist rates on live: one class being able to burn through the game's content vastly better than any other class is just as much an "implicit exploit", fully worthy of fixing, if not more than many of the other explicit exploits he's fixed.

Or maybe Nilbog is just a huge Enchanter lover at heart ;) But I really doubt that: I really think he's absolutely trying to do the right thing, and using good criteria on every individual decision he makes. So I just hope he can take a step back, look at the bigger picture, realize "something isn't right here", and thus realize that a fix is needed, like say making charm resists SIGNIFICANTLY higher.

And I say that even IF P99 resists are currently 100% accurate vs. live (which seems unlikely), and he only makes the change for a "classic environment" reason. He's made tons of "classic environment over classic mechanics" decisions on Blue and (especially) Green/Teal already.

Increasing charm resists would ABSOLUTELY make Green/Teal feel more classic, because NO ONE remembers Enchanters being like this. But again, this likely isn't just about "classic feelings": it seems likely that the class has benefited for far too long here from having more obscure mechanics, and even if that's corrected with higher resits, it likely still would be the most powerful class in every single era of classic EverQuest!

[bum3]

^ You will stare at the wall with me to make it classic.. won't you?

[sentinel]

^ You will stare at the wall with me to make it classic.. won't you?

You make a shit post to a thoughtful post. With the same tired beginnings of an argument.

[sentinel]

Increasing charm resists would ABSOLUTELY make Green/Teal feel more classic, because NO ONE remembers Enchanters being like this. But again, this likely isn't just about "classic feelings": it seems likely that the class has benefited for far too long here from having more obscure mechanics, and even if that's corrected with higher resits, it likely still would be the most powerful class in every single era of classic EverQuest!

Great overall post.

This is really the crux of the matter. Since there is no way to know how the accurate current charm mechanics are, the only other thing we can do is rely upon how often this level of charm abuse happened on live. Which we all seem agree happened drastically less if at all. Chanters were a vaunted CC class who could save your group's ass, not nearly as known for being solo gods holding down end game spawns.

For those of us who played back then, all we can do (whatever our position) is try to remember. And for a 20 year old elf sim, that is not accurate. We can try to reason why folks didn't charm as much: unstable connections (dsl was actually prevalent, but okay) and/or poor gamer skillz (chanters can stun????). Maybe that's true, but we don't really know.

The admins are doing their best guessing and that is enough for me, but I have doubts as to the accuracy of charm mechanics.

[Mushman]

Accurate code or not, the power of charming as it now when played competently destroys the classic EQ ecosystem.

We have solo/duo charm content buzzsaws taking up large amounts of the limited real estate. Anyone LFG is a negative expected value invitation because they are only limited by travel distance, not clear speed of every PH or named mob in their vicinity. Adding anyone else is losing pixels and XP bar progression.

[keithjinternet]

No one has access to the original code. Literally no one: not even Daybreak (the current rights holder) has the original EQ server source code, at least as far as anyone knows.

And that's the frustrating thing about all this, because there's this mix of "known exploits" and "unknown exploits", ie. stuff that was wrong on live but Nilbog's fixed it here, and stuff that was right on live but Nilbog has it wrong here.

Nilbog has taken a "fix exploits, leave broken negative stuff" approach to making Green/Teal (not) classic, which is a completely reasonable option, and makes total sense. BUT... as with anything, the devil is in the details, and the details work out to Nilbog nerfing the hell out of (say) Mages (in the one era they're kinda decent, before they become complete crap), because they had very obvious things that he can see and fix (or in the case of spells, leave unfixed).

Meanwhile, because there's no proof one way or the other, Nilbog just goes by whatever research he's got when it comes to Enchanter resists ... even if that makes the most powerful class in the game, now and through Velious (ie. forever here), even more powerful.

At some point I truly hope Nilbog will realize that, like it or not, he's become a game designer, and when viewed holistically (ie. not separately, in isolation) some of his design decisions are making the game worse, and less classic. When he blindly fixes only the obvious "exploits", which tend to fall more heavily on "weak" classes, simply because they're the ones that are clear and known, while ignoring the obvious (but virtually impossible to prove) imbalances in the most powerful class, he's making one of those choices ... implicitly, whether he means to or not.

It doesn't matter whether Enchanters had better or worse charm resist rates on live: one class being able to burn through the game's content vastly better than any other class is just as much an "implicit exploit", fully worthy of fixing, if not more than many of the other explicit exploits he's fixed.

Or maybe Nilbog is just a huge Enchanter lover at heart ;) But I really doubt that: I really think he's absolutely trying to do the right thing, and using good criteria on every individual decision he makes. So I just hope he can take a step back, look at the bigger picture, realize "something isn't right here", and thus realize that a fix is needed, like say making charm resists SIGNIFICANTLY higher.

And I say that even IF P99 resists are currently 100% accurate vs. live (which seems unlikely), and he only makes the change for a "classic environment" reason. He's made tons of "classic environment over classic mechanics" decisions on Blue and (especially) Green/Teal already.

Increasing charm resists would ABSOLUTELY make Green/Teal feel more classic, because NO ONE remembers Enchanters being like this. But again, this likely isn't just about "classic feelings": it seems likely that the class has benefited for far too long here from having more obscure mechanics, and even if that's corrected with higher resits, it likely still would be the most powerful class in every single era of classic EverQuest!

[Vormotus]

At some point I truly hope Nilbog will realize that, like it or not, he's become a game designer, and when viewed holistically (ie. not separately, in isolation) some of his design decisions are making the game worse, and less classic. When he blindly fixes only the obvious "exploits", which tend to fall more heavily on "weak" classes, simply because they're the ones that are clear and known, while ignoring the obvious (but virtually impossible to prove) imbalances in the most powerful class, he's making one of those choices ... implicitly, whether he means to or not.


Traduttore, Traditore

This applies not only to linguistics but several fields of Logic and anything that derives from it.

One of the first things drilled in my Logics 101 class during College by a very adamant man that loved to single out bilingual speakers and then forcing us to translate key phrases.

It is IMPOSSIBLE, and there is even a field of it, to actually translate concepts in language (Untranslatability).

Why am I mentioning this into this thread?

I completely translated then decoded your message, which flies well out of the boundaries of the game yet easily fits within it, but at the same, applies so beautifully to the current issue at hand, and many others as well.

I have zero stakes in the argument, but felt forced to reply to this particular snippet of your post.

What you allude is something that is known by many of my colleagues and myself during therapy as well as colleagues in related fields.

Your feeling, so written, is also accurate on the level you portray the P99 developer.

Essentially, the statement of making the server as "classic" as possible , is a flawed argument, a self deception, not intentional, but when deconstructed it is shown to be in its ugly truth, its naked truth.

The whole thread is amazing to me as seeing the issue debated , if you remove all the trappings related to P99, Enchanters, Enchanter Spells, Camps and Game Mechanics, can be 100% reinterpreted , applied, poured into or plain copy/pasted into practically any argument relating to a point where the origin is unclear and all that we are left with is "original texts", or "words of the originator" "what the ancients said" "the motto of our company" etc, etc, .

It is fascinating on so many levels, I must confess until you wrote this particular snippet I had to do some analysis of my own curiosity to find out what was so appealing about it.

I had to share it, even some of the pre-fabricated replies by some posters are so astonishingly similar to other cases I have studied before that it made my hair stand on the back of my neck.

Just marvellous, simply marvellous.

I really really have a hard time following some standard threads here, but this one fell into such classical tropes I can only stare with awe at how similar, no matter the differences, all of us are, regardless of all our normal social trappings and "impersonas" we take in here.

Fantastic thread :)

Much love as usual from the lonely Isthmus my dear friends!

I will now try to add a bit of something to the discussion, for the fun of it.

[bum3]

You make a shit post to a thoughtful post. With the same tired beginnings of an argument.

Sure. You can read it how you want without putting any thought into it. But think about it. How hard was it to charm mobs when barely anyone had the internet to control it? If charm broke on 1, let alone multiple, during a packet spike, the raid wiped. I'm sure you feel differently, but most of yours' are shit posts too. At least mine is trying to open discussion on how things really were in classic. But thanks for enlightening us with your shit post on my shit post. Here's hoping to more shit posts linked to mine!

[Bazia]

they ruining all the good zones tbqh 5 enchanters soloing camps in every zone other than like uguk

[bum3]

Traduttore, Traditore

This applies not only to linguistics but several fields of Logic and anything that derives from it.

One of the first things drilled in my Logics 101 class during College by a very adamant man that loved to single out bilingual speakers and then forcing us to translate key phrases.

It is IMPOSSIBLE, and there is even a field of it, to actually translate concepts in language (Untranslatability).

Why am I mentioning this into this thread?

I completely translated then decoded your message, which flies well out of the boundaries of the game yet easily fits within it, but at the same, applies so beautifully to the current issue at hand, and many others as well.

I have zero stakes in the argument, but felt forced to reply to this particular snippet of your post.

What you allude is something that is known by many of my colleagues and myself during therapy as well as colleagues in related fields.

Your feeling, so written, is also accurate on the level you portray the P99 developer.

Essentially, the statement of making the server as "classic" as possible , is a flawed argument, a self deception, not intentional, but when deconstructed it is shown to be in its ugly truth, its naked truth.

The whole thread is amazing to me as seeing the issue debated , if you remove all the trappings related to P99, Enchanters, Enchanter Spells, Camps and Game Mechanics, can be 100% reinterpreted , applied, poured into or plain copy/pasted into practically any argument relating to a point where the origin is unclear and all that we are left with is "original texts", or "words of the originator" "what the ancients said" "the motto of our company" etc, etc, .

It is fascinating on so many levels, I must confess until you wrote this particular snippet I had to do some analysis of my own curiosity to find out what was so appealing about it.

I had to share it, even some of the pre-fabricated replies by some posters are so astonishingly similar to other cases I have studied before that it made my hair stand on the back of my neck.

Just marvellous, simply marvellous.

I really really have a hard time following some standard threads here, but this one fell into such classical tropes I can only stare with awe at how similar, no matter the differences, all of us are, regardless of all our normal social trappings and "impersonas" we take in here.

Fantastic thread :)

Much love as usual from the lonely Isthmus my dear friends!

I will now try to add a bit of something to the discussion, for the fun of it.

I will leave a shit post for you because you are awesome. I love you.

[sentinel]

Sure. You can read it how you want without putting any thought into it. But think about it. How hard was it to charm mobs when barely anyone had the internet to control it? If charm broke on 1, let alone multiple, during a packet spike, the raid wiped. I'm sure you feel differently, but most of yours' are shit posts too. At least mine is trying to open discussion on how things really were in classic. But thanks for enlightening us with your shit post on my shit post. Here's hoping to more shit posts linked to mine!

Oof, sorry I called your post a shit post. Didn't anticipate the vitriol/anger. I apologize.

Anywho, nah, charming wasn't that bad. Even if the dreaded disconnect happened, the pet just needed to be rooted or mezzed or tanked or whatever. People here are acting like 56k was this nigh unstable internet barely able to send emails let alone play Everquest, but it wasn't that bad (at least 200k EQ players didn't seem to think so).

[strawman]

People here are acting like 56k was this nigh unstable internet barely able to send emails let alone play Everquest, but it wasn't that bad (at least 200k EQ players didn't seem to think so).

The problem with dial-up internet was that as soon as someone in your house picked up the phone it disconnected, which would certainly make charming a much bigger liability

[Swish]

People here are acting like 56k was this nigh unstable internet barely able to send emails let alone play Everquest, but it wasn't that bad (at least 200k EQ players didn't seem to think so).

In parts of the world people's ping to the server is nearly 300. So bard kiting is out, but everything else (surprise surprise) feels fine.

[TripleBoc]

I've read many a post here... but my experience on ECI back in 2000 was that there were hardly any enchanters that played. They were a rare class because they were considered support and not powerful enough to solo. I started one because I liked to group, and never once did anyone ask me to charm... they just wanted CC and haste/clarity.

When I came to blue in 2015, I was shocked at how many chanters were always on, then I read about how most were soloers due to charm. I'm not saying the mechanics were different back on live, but the perception was for sure.

[Vormotus]

I will leave a shit post for you because you are awesome. I love you.

Thank you , but I need to keep going.

To add something constructive to this thread as further fuel to this bonfire of the vanities that this thread has become I have taken the duty to dutifully do a small crop job by using as reference the next text:

Everquest Players Handbook -
Sword and SorceryStudio
White Wolf Publishing Inc -
Reference Number WW16500 -
9781588461254 - 52995
1-58846-125-4
Section: Book 2: Songs and Spells
Page: 237
https://i.imgur.com/UlNFaL3.jpg

In here you can clearly see the intended duration type of the Charm Spell as extracted and interpreted by the designing team of the Everquest RPG Tabletop Game based 100% off the Actual PC Game.

In there you can see clearly the Original, Extended and Failed Save Duration. the effects thereof if it and how the mechanic of the actual save versus resists plays.

From this many conclusions and extrapolations of the original game can be taken into account, please feel free to use this obscure source as you wish.

My duty is now discharged, and I must now go back to whisper to others of their own mortality as they enter Rome, as virtual as it may be, but not for that, but because of it, no less real.

Much love to everybody from the Isthmus, real genuine love

Super hug to everybody. :o

[Ligma]

Anywho, nah, charming wasn't that bad. Even if the dreaded disconnect happened, the pet just needed to be rooted or mezzed or tanked or whatever. People here are acting like 56k was this nigh unstable internet barely able to send emails let alone play Everquest, but it wasn't that bad (at least 200k EQ players didn't seem to think so).

Going LD everytime the phone rings was a huge problem. And mezzing/rooting/tanking was much more difficult with people constantly breaking mez, attacking rooted mobs and no discord to even let people know what's going on.

People were discriminatory to any pet class period because pets liked to get lost and train groups. In general the thought process was 'why complicate things and die when you don't have to'

[Frostback]

Technology made the class more op. I knew a really good enchanter on povar that had his own dedicated phone line just for eq, and a high end pc.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000621221742/http://eq.stratics.com/classes/enchanter/classes_enc_ruri.shtml

In closing...

The enchanter may be looked upon as weak, as they are in certain areas. Their damage output is very low, and their pets are weak. But proper manipulation of their spells will cause the enchanter to outperform any other class, it's just a matter of using the correct spell :)

[r34m]

Charm is working as intended, frostbacks guide is definitive proof. A 5 min charm is a good charm. With tash. He doesn’t even mention malo or -MR items, or torches.

[cd288]

It doesn't matter whether Enchanters had better or worse charm resist rates on live: one class being able to burn through the game's content vastly better than any other class is just as much an "implicit exploit", fully worthy of fixing, if not more than many of the other explicit exploits he's fixed.

Increasing charm resists would ABSOLUTELY make Green/Teal feel more classic, because NO ONE remembers Enchanters being like this. But again, this likely isn't just about "classic feelings": it seems likely that the class has benefited for far too long here from having more obscure mechanics, and even if that's corrected with higher resits, it likely still would be the most powerful class in every single era of classic EverQuest!

Eh you lost me when you started saying this stuff. It's not an implicit exploit. For all we know, the Charm rates could be accurate versus live. We literally have no evidence except for people thinking they remember something being different 20 years ago and/or people essentially assuming it was different simply because people hadn't min/maxed the heck out of the strategy at that point.

And making such a massive change for a "classic experience" simply because people didn't know the strategies back then would kind of be a dumb decision; not only because it's simply a dumb rationale, but also because it would then open up a HUGE can of worms to say we need to start nerfing all kinds of other things because people have perfected knowledge and strategy and therefore it's not reflective of classic. And then, at that point, after all those changes it no longer becomes classic Everquest.

[Dolalin]

Technology made the class more op. I knew a really good enchanter on povar that had his own dedicated phone line just for eq, and a high end pc.

https://web.archive.org/web/20000621221742/http://eq.stratics.com/classes/enchanter/classes_enc_ruri.shtml

Uh, from that same post:


I highly suggest against using Charm to solo. Although Charming may get more monsters killed, it's quite risky, and you never know when that faithful Mesmerise spell may fizzle :D

[Not_Mikeo]

Stupid self-serving bullshit

No one cares what you have to say.

[Bazia]

No one cares what you have to say.

nice contribution smooth brain

[bwe]

Uh, from that same post:

Dolalin, you killed mages. It is your duty to kill enchanters too

[Tist]

Yet I rarely see enchanters soloing deep into in dungeons. Why? Because it takes skill and is dangerous. QQ more noob.

[sentinel]

Yet.

[nicemace]

This is true in PoP, an era people agree charm got better because of AA and better charm spells. Except charm wasn't used in every raid or group. Despite being able to charm mobs in fire that don't summon and quad for nearly 800, people didn't charm on raids and most table groups were kite groups. Why is that?

Charm was considered good in pop because of the absurd ability to grind exp/aas. Pet kills gave 100% exp if you did 1pt of damage. Further to this they had absurd group exp bonus but if you moved out of range of the other enchs of your group you could get solo exp with the group bonus still applying. There were literally groups of 6 enchs in a single zone all spread out soloing with charm. This was not common but definitely happened which lead to charm pet exp nerfs and group bonus getting fixed in the same patch.

As well as enchs soloing literally every non raid mob for those sweet sweet ornate drops lel

[Ligma]

That's all true but the point is that most raids and groups didn't use charm. I only ever saw charm used on rydda dar and RZTWL. From that it's clear that by that point everyone knew how powerful it was but didn't use it on every raid. Even though if you wanted to min/max you could farm most EP minis with two groups with a few enchanters.

I never saw a traditional group at tables with a tank and charm pet. Ever. It was always kite groups and enchanters could charm some crazy dps spiders.

[Buellen]

For what is worth

Equemulator code for charm.

CHARM
SE_Charm (22)
Charm when is cast initially a resist check is made which is effected by a charisma modifier.
Charm if successful has an innate chance to break every buff tick. (Unless flagged in unbreakable in spell table 'powerful_flag')
There is an approximately 25% chance to trigger a resist check each tick to determine if charm will fade.
Resist check for charm to fade is NOT effected by Charisma or Base1 value (unknown what that does).
There is a lower bounds of approximately 3% chance per tick of charm breaking no matter what. (If you have 0% chance to resist the spell due to Tash/Green con)
If resist check fails...
If player has a bonus from SE_CharmBreakChance (243) 'Total Domination AA' you have another chance for charm not to break based on the value,
Example: Total Domination Rank 3 is 50% chance for charm not to break if resist check fails.
Otherwise, charm will fade

[Tecmos Deception]

Omg. Your sig is the nilbog quote I was just looking for for a different thread! I woulda found it too except I searched for nilbog's posts containing "classic" and "players" not "classic" and "people."

[Buellen]

Lol

I found that quote a few years back and have used it ever since. Glad you can use it 8)