Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[cd288]

You underestimate these researchers. Give it time, you’ll feel the pain as we did.

OkNecro

[WaffleztheAndal]

OkNecro

I’m a mage dammit. I respect the dead bodies of your family.

[bubur]

can you stop bumping this terrible thread

[Meiva]

*stickied*

[Bazia]

on green ENCs are raid tanks, isnt charm a little over reliable when every guild on the server is using a charmed mob tank for naggy/tranix/etc?

you put mages dicks into the dirt to stop the cheesing that happened during blue classic

encs on green are being abused much more than the blue mages you shit on ever were

[bubur]

i didnt shit on anyone or anywhere

just make a bug report or something

[Bazia]

i didnt shit on anyone or anywhere

just make a bug report or something

it was reference to staff, mages during blue classic were significantly more powerful and were used to "cheese" a ton of content, they were then nerfed numerous times and then destroyed on green launch to prevent it from happening again

meanwhile some enc right now on green is using an LDC to raid tank fire giants while a a couple dozen other characters sit in a corner doing literally nothing

there is very little consistency in the decision making in that regard, having half a raid be rendered useless because pets are both the raid tank and raid dps is stoopid

green raids are 5 ENCs with pets, a handful of level 39 clerics, and then 25 "do nothings" sitting in a corner. It's a very anti-fun "meta" for anyone who isnt an ENC or CLR and likely the reason this thread has gone almost 80 pages thus far

it never bothered me that ENCs were breaking all the group content, but now they are breaking the raid content too

[cd288]

it was reference to staff, mages during blue classic were significantly more powerful and were used to "cheese" a ton of content, they were then nerfed numerous times and then destroyed on green launch to prevent it from happening again

meanwhile some enc right now on green is using an LDC to raid tank fire giants while a a couple dozen other characters sit in a corner doing literally nothing

there is very little consistency in the decision making in that regard, having half a raid be rendered useless because pets are both the raid tank and raid dps is stoopid

green raids are 5 ENCs with pets, a handful of level 39 clerics, and then 25 "do nothings" sitting in a corner. It's a very anti-fun "meta" for anyone who isnt an ENC or CLR and likely the reason this thread has gone almost 80 pages thus far

it never bothered me that ENCs were breaking all the group content, but now they are breaking the raid content too

The key difference is that the Mage changes were based on actual evidence of how pet spells were set up back in the day. The whiners in this thread want an un-classic nerf just because they don't like one class being more powerful than another even if it's classic, and are upset their Necros are having to compete with Enchs for farming camps.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

on green ENCs are raid tanks, isnt charm a little over reliable when every guild on the server is using a charmed mob tank for naggy/tranix/etc?

you put mages dicks into the dirt to stop the cheesing that happened during blue classic

encs on green are being abused much more than the blue mages you shit on ever were
Couldn't be more accurate a statement. It's become a complete joke. I've seen situations on Green EVERY NAMED MOB in a given some was being solocamped by a Chanter. This is something no other Class could do. Not even Necros (outside of MAYBE undead-only zones)

It's completely antithetical to the intended design philosophy of Classic EverQuest AS STATED BY BRAD MCQUAID HIMSELF.

If there's anything less Classic "in spirit" on the P99 servers I'd be hard pressed to name it!

[Bazia]

The key difference is that the Mage changes were based on actual evidence of how pet spells were set up back in the day. The whiners in this thread want an un-classic nerf just because they don't like one class being more powerful than another even if it's classic, and are upset their Necros are having to compete with Enchs for farming camps.

encs are raid tanks now and the mage break staff implemented wasnt classic (they could still research higher levels pets on live which they cannot do on green at all)

i implore rogean to check out 1 green raid and im sure looking at the pile in the corner of every class other than ENC and CLR doing nothing will convince him to tweak this

[Dolalin]

the mage break staff implemented wasnt classic (they could still research higher levels pets on live which they cannot do on green at all)

Untrue. There were no magician pets above level 29 until the May 1999 research fixes, and even most of those were broken. I found a contemporary research guide .doc from the time. Mage research was completely hosed for two full months after launch.

Proof:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3017254&postcount=17

[WaffleztheAndal]

Untrue. There were no magician pets above level 29 until the May 1999 research fixes, and even most of those were broken. I found a contemporary research guide .doc from the time. Mage research was completely hosed for two full months after launch.

Proof:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3017254&postcount=17

We’re trying to hose enchanters here people, stay focused. Mages are already good and fucked, that ship has sailed and doesn’t seem to be getting the fix that was planned before the main fix in January.

Dolalin surely charm wasn’t this reliable, riskless and effortless on live in this era, use your powers for good this time, not evil.

[Dolalin]

There were a lot of little charm bugs and things that made charming less attractive on Live than it is now.

1) Nobody had GCD refresh items
2) Tashan line was resistable until May 1999
3) CHA *might* be giving too much of a charm duration bonus here
4) Charmed pets would randomly not obey /pet commands
5) Charmed pets would randomly attack groupmates
6) Mobs 35+ *probably* had higher MR across the board
7) Pets in groups should steal a full share of xp if they outdamage the entire group

That's off the top of my head. It's not just any one thing.

[WaffleztheAndal]

There were a lot of little charm bugs and things that made charming less attractive on Live than it is now.

1) Nobody had GCD refresh items
2) Tashan line was resistable until May 1999
3) CHA *might* be giving too much of a charm duration bonus here
4) Charmed pets would randomly not obey /pet commands
5) Charmed pets would randomly attack groupmates
6) Mobs 35+ *probably* had higher MR across the board
7) Pets in groups should steal a full share of xp if they outdamage the entire group

That's off the top of my head. It's not just any one thing.

Now that’s what I’m talking about. Let’s get the research crew rolling.

[Dolalin]

3 and 7 are already bugged.

6 I don't have enough proof for.

4 and 5 are mechanics bugs the staff probably won't implement.

1 is game knowledge.

I haven't bugged 2 yet though tbh.

[WaffleztheAndal]

3 and 7 are already bugged.

6 I don't have enough proof for.

4 and 5 are mechanics bugs the staff probably won't implement.

1 is game knowledge.

I haven't bugged 2 yet though tbh.

So 3 and 7 are already reported pending review, 2 potential to follow, and who knows what else can be dug up. Not bad at all.

[bwe]

Implement 4 and 5 and unnerf pet daggers

[cd288]

encs are raid tanks now and the mage break staff implemented wasnt classic (they could still research higher levels pets on live which they cannot do on green at all)

i implore rogean to check out 1 green raid and im sure looking at the pile in the corner of every class other than ENC and CLR doing nothing will convince him to tweak this

As Dolalin mentioned in his reply, this is simply incorrect.

[Evets]

That list would be minor inconveniences no chanter or group will care about. Would not stop enchanters from charming nor the salty salty tears.

[WaffleztheAndal]

That list would be minor inconveniences no chanter or group will care about. Would not stop enchanters from charming nor the salty salty tears.

Then we must have more, more nerfs yes.

[derpcake2]

3 and 7 are already bugged.

3 was bugged based on the strawman that CHA affects charm too much, without actually proving charm lasts longer compared to classic

not expecting much from the guy that literally broke mage research through one-sided feedback though

move to resolved

[Bazia]

w/e ill just keep sitting in the corner watching ENCs play all the everquest just kinda disappointing how green turned out is all

[derpcake2]

w/e ill just keep sitting in the corner watching ENCs play all the everquest just kinda disappointing how green turned out is all

i love to watch soccer, but i'm pretty terrible at it

this is how you should see eq

i know you really tried on red, so there is that, but stick to the corner on real servers

[WaffleztheAndal]

3 was bugged based on the strawman that CHA affects charm too much, without actually proving charm lasts longer compared to classic

not expecting much from the guy that literally broke mage research through one-sided feedback though

move to resolved

His research was sound, and he’s doing good work on shit like helping to prevent nag/vox cheese. Let him work his magic on hosing overpowered charm shenanigans.

[derpcake2]

His research was sound, and he’s doing good work on shit like helping to prevent nag/vox cheese. Let him work his magic on hosing overpowered charm shenanigans.

ignoring arguments doesn't remove them from the conversation

staff isn't as retarded as you are

[Bazia]

i love to watch soccer, but i'm pretty terrible at it

this is how you should see eq

i know you really tried on red, so there is that, but stick to the corner on real servers

almost all melee classes are currently played this way, pets are so powerful having anything that isnt a petclass or healer ends up kinda just awkwardly standing around doing nothing

it isnt even worth showing up to at this point, a majority of the raid is doing nothing while ENCs pets do everything with the few available clerics CHing said pets

shits dumb

[WaffleztheAndal]

ignoring arguments doesn't remove them from the conversation

staff isn't as retarded as you are

Okboomer.

[derpcake2]

all melee classes are currently played this way

ah i'm sorry, i forgot about all the melee classes soloing in classic

would you like a hug? I can put on illusion wood elf

300 plat or fuck off

[solleks]

Im upset about the game i play please adjust it for me

[Bazia]

ah i'm sorry, i forgot about all the melee classes soloing in classic

would you like a hug? I can put on illusion wood elf

300 plat or fuck off

in classic melees were relevant in raids, unlike green or teal where people wont even pretend and you sit around waiting to soulfire a pet or do nothing while some ENC's imp protector experiences all the content

[cd288]

almost all melee classes are currently played this way, pets are so powerful having anything that isnt a petclass or healer ends up kinda just awkwardly standing around doing nothing

it isnt even worth showing up to at this point, a majority of the raid is doing nothing while ENCs pets do everything with the few available clerics CHing said pets

shits dumb

Hate to break it to you but for most classes in EQ raiding is standing around not doing much.

Sorry your necro doesn’t have claim to all camps because enchanters can solo too.

[WaffleztheAndal]

Hate to break it to you but for most classes in EQ raiding is standing around not doing much.

Sorry your necro doesn’t have claim to all camps because enchanters can solo too.

Is Baler actually a Necro? Or are you just calling everyone that.

Also didn’t you used to be a mage, bitching with us about mage issues? The good old days.

[Bazia]

at one point you were allowed to hit the mob i believe, no one is saying the current end-game "meta" isn't effective it's just kind of anti-fun for the rest of the classes sitting in a pile doing nothing

it's more of a risk to even bring melees to a raid at this point my guild has said flat out in discord that more people that arent healers or pet classes in the raid are just more of a chance for things to go wrong and do their best to not even tell people when we kill giants or other stuff

maybe just nerf ENCs as far as charm tanking raid encounters goes it's getting really redundant to play anything that isnt an ENC or CLR (or a second fiddle MAG/NEC) quickly

[WaffleztheAndal]

Ahh holy shit now I remember, CD288 and DerpCake2 were mages that were rallying with me and others against the shitty pet changes after green launched. Obviously you two rerolled enchanter, and you’re not keen on seeing the class you rerolled to hit with the nerf bat in a repeat of history. I don’t blame you lol, that would sting.

Me myself, I just want to see the classes of the players that lol’d and trolled us mages suffer a bit as well.

To each their own!

[Zeboim]

Only Seal Team has actually raided on green or teal.

The first to raid on Teal is going to be Kingdom, and from what I understand the reason they are taking longer than Seal Team is they are leveling and gearing tanks to do it without enc cheese.

[cd288]

Ahh holy shit now I remember, CD288 and DerpCake2 were mages that were rallying with me and others against the shitty pet changes after green launched. Obviously you two rerolled enchanter, and you’re not keen on seeing the class you rerolled to hit with the nerf bat in a repeat of history. I don’t blame you lol, that would sting.

Me myself, I just want to see the classes of the players that lol’d and trolled us mages suffer a bit as well.

To each their own!

I was never a mage. My only Ench on P99 is a lowbie alt that I barely play. Not even charm level yet lol because I kind of find the class boring.

You don’t have to be like maining the class in question to think something is dumb. I still think the Mage changes were stupid since the whole reason they didn’t exist at launch was because the devs had messed up and quickly fixed it. However, I also think the mage changes are very different from saying Enchanters should be changed because the mage changes were at least based in reality of how things existed, rather than people whining because a lot of people are playing Enchanters because they have been OP since EQ launched in 1999 and wanting the staff to nerf them unclassicly just because.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

My charm breaks plenty. all it takes is a push of 3 buttons in a matter of seconds to re charm. Mez, Tash, Charm.

Kinda pinpoints the problem here, eh? This is precisely our argument! We're supposed to believe that it was this simple during Vanilla, yet nobody figured that out for several YEARS?

Whle they figured out far more complex things like cannidancing, FD pulling, quad kiting, PBAE grouping etc.

[Wallicker]

I just wanna see an ench + ench duel each other, charm the lava guardian and imp protector, have a bard and 3 clerics to heal and play resists, enchanters send in pets and since they are dueled just keep each other’s petrooted. Lava guardian keeps taunt on imp protector off and one group naggy, the 45pt dmg shield 6k hp tank and 120dmg quad hit imp rogue should make quick work of that pesky dragon, both are pretty much fire immune so cancel magic naggy casts will be resisted. It’ll atleast be a very impressive cheese, and once someone figures this out we will see how loot is divided.

[Wallicker]

Consolation prize 35 wizards casting frost storm and/or ice comet to get dragon fleeing in one cast each

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Also interesting if we look at the early TLP servers, which were absolutely dominated by Mages.

We're seeing the same thing here with Chanters instead!

[bubur]

Also interesting if we look at the early TLP servers, which were absolutely dominated by Mages.

We're seeing the same thing here with Chanters instead!

i dont know why people keep saying this

do a /who all count on each class and its clear that druids run green/teal. and its not by a little bit either

could we at least be a little bit factual on page 82? we can go back to repeating imp protector and "muh well mages got nerfed" rhetoric right after that. im sure the staff care very much about these important points and are working on combing through the 80 pages as we speak

[sentinel]

Enchanter charm seems to be way different than classic, what gives?

"Shut up, it's fine."

Well maybe change it to be like classic?

"Shut up, it is classic."

How do you know?

"I don't know, no one does. Even Daybreak doesn't know. That said, it is perfect and classic."

Well imps and snakes are tanking raid mobs. That wasn't classic was it? And secondary to that, chanters are camping group spawn points. Remember when in classic in Guk and Sol B there were groups for many named spawn points?

"Shut up, you just can't handle that people have better internet and wikis to do things people weren't doing on live."

Even if that is true, which it probably isn't given the amount of obsessive class boards that used to exit back then, is this good for the Green/Teal to have tank/dps classes being completely sidelined?

"Yes, Green/Teal is an EQ museum which does not account for your feels or interest in balancing the game. Deal with it."

Then why do we have early FS dagger nerfs, clickable items links, whirl til you hurl nerfs, bard swarming nerfs, etc?

"While not classic, those changes were because those were in the interest of game balance and player feels. Makes total sense."

[bubur]

^ nice imagination

c u in the bug thread

[Not_Mikeo]

This really has been one of the dumbest threads...

Something not classic? Find some evidence and make a bug post.

Feelings hurt? Go make an RnF post.

[sentinel]

Shit post for a shit poster. cya at 100 pages +

[bubur]

just trying to do my part and keep it from devolving into an echo chamber of unclassic nonsense devoid of evidence and based on the same few people circlejerking about a few hypothetical situations and actually just straight up wrong information

youll thank me someday

[sentinel]

youll thank me someday

Agreed, but that day is today. Thank you for bumping this to the top.

[ArunaGreen]

just trying to do my part and keep it from devolving into an echo chamber of unclassic nonsense devoid of evidence and based on the same few people circlejerking about a few hypothetical situations and actually just straight up wrong information

youll thank me someday

If shit like bard aoe'n is nerfed then there is no reason whatsoever that charm shouldn't be nerfed. Chanters being able to solo and duo camps meant for full or near full groups is absurd. Chanters doing half a raids DPS with a single pet is retarded. The spell is in BLATANT need of a nerf. You should not be able to charm a dar ghoul or a protector imp or any other absurdly high powered pet.

[Hazek]

Enchanter charm seems to be way different than classic, what gives?

"Shut up, it's fine."

Well maybe change it to be like classic?

"Shut up, it is classic."

How do you know?

"I don't know, no one does. Even Daybreak doesn't know. That said, it is perfect and classic."

Well imps and snakes are tanking raid mobs. That wasn't classic was it? And secondary to that, chanters are camping group spawn points. Remember when in classic in Guk and Sol B there were groups for many named spawn points?

"Shut up, you just can't handle that people have better internet and wikis to do things people weren't doing on live."

Even if that is true, which it probably isn't given the amount of obsessive class boards that used to exit back then, is this good for the Green/Teal to have tank/dps classes being completely sidelined?

"Yes, Green/Teal is an EQ museum which does not account for your feels or interest in balancing the game. Deal with it."

Then why do we have early FS dagger nerfs, clickable items links, whirl til you hurl nerfs, bard swarming nerfs, etc?

"While not classic, those changes were because those were in the interest of game balance and player feels. Makes total sense."

Server has obvious non-classic changes but if its a change you want then the hypocrites will cry and tell you to stop trying to "streamline" it. And remember, the whole point of p1999 is to recreate bad mechanics!

[Hazek]

If shit like bard aoe'n is nerfed then there is no reason whatsoever that charm shouldn't be nerfed. Chanters being able to solo and duo camps meant for full or near full groups is absurd. Chanters doing half a raids DPS with a single pet is retarded. The spell is in BLATANT need of a nerf. You should not be able to charm a dar ghoul or a protector imp or any other absurdly high powered pet.

Look I want classic Everquest not World of Warcraft. Cause if they nerf that then what's next, making it so bards can only hit 4 mobs? Lol. No thanks. Keep it classic.

[ArunaGreen]

Look I want classic Everquest not World of Warcraft. Cause if they nerf that then what's next, making it so bards can only hit 4 mobs? Lol. No thanks. Keep it classic.

So making enchanters less powerful than an entire high end max level group combined is making the game into WoW? You're a fucking retard lol. Also, bards can currently only hit 4 mobs and that's honestly how it should remain. Being able to solo an entire zone is fucking stupid.

[Nirgon]

Add bard to list of things toxic bluebies ruined

Good reminder

[Not_Mikeo]

Didn’t they find evidence to nerf boards for green?

Edit: https://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334283

That was it I guess.

[bubur]

You're a fucking retard lol.

here's where you lose me.

chanter nerfs? fine. present the evidence and post it. i also dont remember charm being widely used in classic. i have my opinions about why that is, which i posted 40-somethin pages ago and no one cares what i think

but flailing around and trying to bully people into your perspective before you do any actual research or lift a finger to prove your point? naw gtfo

[this user was banned]

Bards taking an entire leveling zone for themselves in one pull was pretty busted.

[ArunaGreen]

Bards taking an entire leveling zone for themselves in one pull was pretty busted.

Ya and so is duoing ghoul lord and arch magus with ease as a 50 chanter. No class even comes remotely close to what a chanter is capable of except for necro's in undead zones. Neither of these classes should have such a massive degree of power over everyone else. You shouldn't be able to charm a pet that is stronger than a max level tank with all BiS gear that is also simultaneously better at dps than a max level DPS class with all BiS gear. How anyone can even argue that this should remain in game is fucking mind boggling. It should have been nerfed 10 years ago.

[sentinel]

All the more reason to make a non classic action to nerf them for the good of the server.

[Hazek]

So making enchanters less powerful than an entire high end max level group combined is making the game into WoW? You're a fucking retard lol.

sat·ire
/ˈsaˌtī(ə)r/
noun
noun: satire

the use of humor, irony, exaggeration, or ridicule to expose and criticize people's stupidity or vices, particularly in the context of contemporary politics and other topical issues.
synonyms: mockery, ridicule, derision, scorn, caricature;

Also, bards can currently only hit 4 mobs and that's honestly how it should remain. Being able to solo an entire zone is fucking stupid.

Charm breaking early is stupid and it should remain as it is.

Big swarms were high risk that took lots of skill and time to complete. One mistake, including lag, was death. It was also done in obscure zones like FV and Burning Woods with plenty of other places to level (and extra mobs that don't get pulled).

[Wurl]

fix enchanters

[Hazek]

https://i.imgur.com/r39SUYS.jpg

[ArunaGreen]

Big swarms were high risk that took lots of skill and time to complete. One mistake, including lag, was death. It was also done in obscure zones like FV and Burning Woods with plenty of other places to level (and extra mobs that don't get pulled).

Hard to tell if you're joking honestly. Bard swarming is not skill intensive at all. You literally run around in a fucking circle while a song auto plays. How is that high risk? Lol...

[Hazek]

Hard to tell if you're joking honestly. Bard swarming is not skill intensive at all. You literally run around in a fucking circle while a song auto plays. How is that high risk? Lol...

Sometimes i'm joking. Sometimes i'm not. Need high INT and WIS to tell the difference.

Swarm kiting is not "running around in flipper circle while a song plays."

Coming from someone who actually did it.

Swarming is spending lots of time to run through the entire zone single pulling mobs without agroing casters or getting stunned and dying from your train, thus losing even more time from having to zone it or run back and do it again. Then its learning how to click off selos and strafe kite while twisting 3 dots and switching instruments and circling with the perfect degree to be at the right distance without getting too close a single time and getting one shot, which is always an inch away. Then its doing that consistently for 30 minutes or more without a mistake. Stop being so silly and overly dramatic.

Also buff enchanters.

[Hazek]

I almost wanna reinstall and swarm anyway even with the 4 mob limit. u mad

[ArunaGreen]

Sometimes i'm joking. Sometimes i'm not. Need high INT and WIS to tell the difference.

Swarm kiting is not "running around in flipper circle while a song plays."

Coming from someone who actually did it.

I'm literally the reason the mechanic was nerfed on blue so I kinda know what I'm talking about. AOE Kiting on a bard is about as difficult as tying your shoes while chewing bubble gum.

Swarming is spending lots of time to run through the entire zone single pulling mobs without agroing casters or getting stunned and dying from your train, thus losing even more time from having to zone it or run back and do it again. Then its learning how to click off selos and strafe kite while twisting 3 dots and switching instruments and circling with the perfect degree to be at the right distance without getting too close a single time and getting one shot. Then its doing that consistently for 30 minutes or more without a mistake. Stop being so silly and overly dramatic.

Also buff enchanters.

If you get stunned by a mob when you have selo's and multiple long range pulling tools, you're being a complete moron. Avoiding casters is a joke as most of the zones you do this in don't even have casters in the area that it's done. Learning how to click off a buff...good lord. Also, who taught you to twist 3 dots? Lol. You literally just autoplay the level 18 dot as it has the longest range and keeps you in complete safety and with horn it does heavy damage. I think out of 1,000 pulls I can count all my deaths with a single hand. If you think AOE Kiting takes skill, odds are you have a double digit IQ and find most things in life to be difficult.

[Hazek]

I'm literally the reason the mechanic was nerfed on blue so I kinda know what I'm talking about. AOE Kiting on a bard is about as difficult as tying your shoes while chewing bubble gum.



If you get stunned by a mob when you have selo's and multiple long range pulling tools, you're being a complete moron. Avoiding casters is a joke as most of the zones you do this in don't even have casters in the area that it's done. Learning how to click off a buff...good lord. Also, who taught you to twist 3 dots? Lol. You literally just autoplay the level 18 dot as it has the longest range and keeps you in complete safety and with horn it does heavy damage. I think out of 1,000 pulls I can count all my deaths with a single hand. If you think AOE Kiting takes skill, odds are you have a double digit IQ and find most things in life to be difficult.


https://i.imgur.com/e5lswes.gif

The fact that you said you "kited" with a single dot proves you never did it in Burning Woods or any high level zone. And any bard who's actually done it knows this.

So yeah of course "swarming" is easy when its level 1 bats.

But for me its not like it was korean level difficulty but its not how you're describing it either.

[ArunaGreen]

Lmao

https://i.imgur.com/e5lswes.gif

The fact that you said you "kited" with a single dot proves you never did it in Burning Woods or any high level zone. And any bard who's actually done it knows this.

So yeah of course "swarming" is easy when its level 1 bats.

But for me its not like it was korean level difficulty but its not how you're describing it either.

Uhh, you only need the level 18 dot, period. I've done it in every zone that it's typically done. Oasis/SK before kunark, then OT, DL, BW. Not sure why you think it can't be done with a single dot. I used to literally pull every single non giant/spider in DL and do like 150 mob kites. I was literally the reason it was nerfed on blue. I'm also the first 50 bard on teal/green so please, I know what I'm talking about. It's not difficult, period. Almost nothing in EQ even is, especially when you have classes that blatantly trivialize the majority of content that exists.

[Hazek]

Uhh, you only need the level 18 dot, period. I've done it in every zone that it's typically done. Oasis/SK before kunark, then OT, DL, BW. Not sure why you think it can't be done with a single dot. I used to literally pull every single non giant/spider in DL and do like 150 mob kites. I was literally the reason it was nerfed on blue. I'm also the first 50 bard on teal/green so please, I know what I'm talking about. It's not difficult, period. Almost nothing in EQ even is, especially when you have classes that blatantly trivialize the majority of content that exists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAanrkLn6bI

[Vizax_Xaziv]

To be fair, once mastered, Bard Swarming is pretty dang easy. And if you DO happen die you don't even need a rez cuz you'll make that XP back times five on your next Swarm.

[Seducio]

Enchanters are an extremely fun class. Fun in almost every situation of the game except a few that other classes shine better at. The over-versatility of the class is quite classic.

Many of the other classes are much more narrowly focused and after 20 year don't provide as much joy as some would like.

I recommend anyone who hasn't played one yet to try an Enchanter out on Green/Teal/Blue.

Outside of a few folks who don't like the ENC spell set, for most playing this class is pure joy.

[cd288]

Kinda pinpoints the problem here, eh? This is precisely our argument! We're supposed to believe that it was this simple during Vanilla, yet nobody figured that out for several YEARS?

Whle they figured out far more complex things like cannidancing, FD pulling, quad kiting, PBAE grouping etc.

? Tons of Enchs were charm killing by Kunark bud. As part of the CSR team I had exposure to many servers and saw this on multiple servers.

[cd288]

Ya and so is duoing ghoul lord and arch magus with ease as a 50 chanter. No class even comes remotely close to what a chanter is capable of except for necro's in undead zones. Neither of these classes should have such a massive degree of power over everyone else. You shouldn't be able to charm a pet that is stronger than a max level tank with all BiS gear that is also simultaneously better at dps than a max level DPS class with all BiS gear. How anyone can even argue that this should remain in game is fucking mind boggling. It should have been nerfed 10 years ago.

Well I have great news for you. All you need to do is invent a time machine, go back to 1999 and get the SOE devs to nerf something and then the staff will nerf it on P99 today.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

? Tons of Enchs were charm killing by Kunark bud. As part of the CSR team I had exposure to many servers and saw this on multiple servers.

I mean I was in one of the two top-tier guilds on my server, and none of our Chanters were Charm-soloing til Velious hit.

And Charm-soloing wasn't as prevalent as it is on P99 til at least Luclin if not POP. You just didn't see it being done. In the literal hundreds of hours my Warrior spent at the Fungi King during Vanilla not once did I ever see a Chanter Charming for DPS. In fact, nobody even considered Chanters a DPS Class (let alone THE BEST DPS Class)


They knew how to play their Class - mezzes stuns memblurs etc. Yet, they didn't Charm ubiquitously like on P99.

The question is: why?

[ArunaGreen]

Well I have great news for you. All you need to do is invent a time machine, go back to 1999 and get the SOE devs to nerf something and then the staff will nerf it on P99 today.

Or it could just be nerfed as many other aspects that existed in classic were also nerfed.

[derpcake2]

You shouldn't be able to charm a pet that is stronger than a max level tank with all BiS gear that is also simultaneously better at dps than a max level DPS class with all BiS gear. How anyone can even argue that this should remain in game is fucking mind boggling.

This complaint is extremely classic and proves the current situation is correct.

Thanks for your input.

[ArunaGreen]

This complaint is extremely classic and proves the current situation is correct.

Thanks for your input.

It's irrelevant if the ability is/was classic. The ability is blatantly OP and should not exist in its current form. We have the opportunity to change a clearly broken mechanic to better improve the game. There is zero logical reason whatsoever not to nerf the ability. Even if there was absolute 100% confirmation that charm worked the way it currently does, it would still be fucking retarded not to change it. Just like low hp agro kiting was nerfed despite being 100% confirmed to be classic because it is fucking stupid and breaks the game.

[Hazek]

Besides whether or not "enchanters are OP". The real thing i'm wondering is why you care so much to get angry about it. Dig deep and be honest. Do you play a warrior? Don't want the solo spots to be taken? And i'm not saying I disagree.

Also getting mad and cursing is less persuasive and causes people to mock you, even if you're right.

[derpcake2]

It's irrelevant if the ability is/was classic.

https://i.imgur.com/Xcf985el.png

I hope this helps clear up your confusion.

[ArunaGreen]

https://i.imgur.com/Xcf985el.png

I hope this helps clear up your confusion.

What will help clear up my confusion is when you explain why low hp agro kiting doesn't work here when it very clearly should. Why is one clearly broken mechanic fixed here but another far more broken one isn't? How the fuck does this make any sense.

[slowpoke68]

Besides whether or not "enchanters are OP". The real thing i'm wondering is why you care so much to get angry about it. Dig deep and be honest. Do you play a warrior? Don't want the solo spots to be taken? And i'm not saying I disagree.

Also getting mad and cursing is less persuasive and causes people to mock you, even if you're right.

No, the problem is this. The content in this game was designed for 6 man groups. When you have one or two enchanters in group, the way charm now functions you have essentially a 7 or 8 man group.

Considering I don't think I have been in a group without a chanter in it, this affects my game play. It trivializes content, is not classic, is totally out of whack, and needs to be fixed.

I really don't understand why all of these chanters don't go play some modern mmo where you can be ez mode all the time. Really a weird choice. I would actually love to roll a chanter at some point if they ever fixed this issue.

[ArunaGreen]

Besides whether or not "enchanters are OP". The real thing i'm wondering is why you care so much to get angry about it. Dig deep and be honest. Do you play a warrior? Don't want the solo spots to be taken? And i'm not saying I disagree.

Also getting mad and cursing is less persuasive and causes people to mock you, even if you're right.

Who's getting mad? Because I type "fucking" means I'm mad? Lol...

I play a bard, also a very strong class but at least I actually require other players to actually accomplish things in game. I have an actual balanced version of charm that I can't use to bulldoze what's suppose to be the most difficult content in the game. I just don't get why people want a game that everyone has beaten 100x over to be even easier than it was when nobody knew anything about the game. A duo should not be able to easily handle both AM/Lord camp simultaneously. High end item camps are being monopolized by a small group of people. The first naggy kill was accomplished using an imp protector which single handedly did 50% of the damage and there was like 50 people on the raid. How anyone can possibly think that shit like that belongs in the game is baffling.

[derpcake2]

I play a bard, also a very strong class but at least I actually require other players to actually accomplish things in game. I have an actual balanced version of charm that I can't use to bulldoze what's suppose to be the most difficult content in the game.

Sounds classic.

[Hazek]

Who's getting mad? Because I type "fucking" means I'm mad? Lol...

I play a bard, also a very strong class but at least I actually require other players to actually accomplish things in game. I have an actual balanced version of charm that I can't use to bulldoze what's suppose to be the most difficult content in the game.

I may be a highly intuitive pisces, but your tone is obvious. And that doesn't answer the question besides that you're jealous of a more powerful class that you don't want to play. Ok then.

High end item camps are being monopolized by a small group of people.

Now we found the real reason because this is deeper than a simple, "I just want the game to be balanced." You don't want them getting all the loot so "easily". Would you feel differently if you were in the raid? Rhetorical question.

[derpcake2]

What will help clear up my confusion is when you explain why low hp agro kiting doesn't work here when it very clearly should. Why is one clearly broken mechanic fixed here but another far more broken one isn't? How the fuck does this make any sense.

Its very simple but I'm still not going to bother explaining.

Running to the store fast, you need some pads or something? Ice cream?

[Hazek]

No, the problem is this. The content in this game was designed for 6 man groups. When you have one or two enchanters in group, the way charm now functions you have essentially a 7 or 8 man group.

Considering I don't think I have been in a group without a chanter in it, this affects my game play. It trivializes content, is not classic, is totally out of whack, and needs to be fixed.

I really don't understand why all of these chanters don't go play some modern mmo where you can be ez mode all the time. Really a weird choice. I would actually love to roll a chanter at some point if they ever fixed this issue.

Then we need to resort to the same bedrock solution that "we" always do; is it accurate according to the classic timeline, and where's the proof or evidence? Because "fixing bad mechanics based on reasoning" isn't an option from what i've heard.

[AgentEpilot]

Gotta love the insta breaks or when it breaks literally right after you haste it.

[ArunaGreen]

Then we need to resort to the same bedrock solution that "we" always do; is it accurate according to the classic timeline, and where's the proof or evidence? Because "fixing bad mechanics based on reasoning" isn't an option from what i've heard.

Bad mechanics have already been fixed here based on reasoning. See: low hp agro kiting. Chanter charm is FAR more broken than low hp agro kiting. A solo chanter having the equivalent strength of nearly a full group of max levels with full high end gear is game breaking, period.

[Hazek]

Bad mechanics have already been fixed here based on reasoning. See: low hp agro kiting. Chanter charm is FAR more broken than low hp agro kiting. A solo chanter having the equivalent strength of nearly a full group of max levels with full high end gear is game breaking, period.

So what is broken about it according to you, the duration? And do you have some evidence from live that we can compare it to? I'll let you search for it since you're much more adamant.

[derpcake2]

The first naggy kill was accomplished using an imp protector which single handedly did 50% of the damage and there was like 50 people on the raid. How anyone can possibly think that shit like that belongs in the game is baffling.

After the naggy kill the imp protector forced its way into Plane of fear using nothing besides its sheer power, it was soloing CT when staff took the server down.

The imp proceeded to sebilis and got 3 fungis.

I only later heard the enchanter was actually asleep during all of this.

Perhaps you can report them for afk xping.

[derpcake2]

Gotta love the insta breaks or when it breaks literally right after you haste it.

This never happens.

I charmed a mob yesterday and it ordered pizza for me.

[Hazek]

After the naggy kill the imp protector forced its way into Plane of fear using nothing besides its sheer power, it was soloing CT when staff took the server down.

The imp proceeded to sebilis and got 3 fungis.

I only later heard the enchanter was actually asleep during all of this.

Perhaps you can report them for afk xping.

Congrats <Seal Team>

https://i.imgur.com/zrlf7Cs.gif

[ArunaGreen]

So what is broken about it according to you, the duration? And do you have some evidence from live that we can compare it to? I'll let you search for it since you're much more adamant.

The level of the mobs being charmed is what's broken. A single enchanter doing the same DPS as an entire raid force combined shouldn't exist. On Seal Team raids, if I'm grouped with the enchanter, we get the exp on basically every single kill. Max level on charm should be like 35. Hell, even a level 35 fully buffed pet would still be a monster but at least wouldn't be utterly game breaking. Either that or change the duration to be similar to bard charm, 20 seconds tops.

[Hazek]

The level of the mobs being charmed is what's broken. A single enchanter doing the same DPS as an entire raid force combined shouldn't exist. On Seal Team raids, if I'm grouped with the enchanter, we get the exp on basically every single kill. Max level on charm should be like 35. Hell, even a level 35 fully buffed pet would still be a monster but at least wouldn't be utterly game breaking. Either that or change the duration to be similar to bard charm, 20 seconds tops.

I'm fine with using reasoning to decide on changes.

But this also looks classic:

Allure Single Target Random Duration Charm Spell (Level 51 Cap)

imp protector
Race: Imp
Class: Rogue
Level: 44 - 48

Capping the duration won't reduce its damage besides the time it takes to re-charm. And if its too short and inconsistent then its useless. Nerfing the maximum level isn't classic from what I see. So what do you suggest besides that? Reduce the damage for all charmed pets or just that mob?

[derpcake2]

Congrats <Seal Team>

https://i.imgur.com/zrlf7Cs.gif

A+

[derpcake2]

The level of the mobs being charmed is what's broken. A single enchanter doing the same DPS as an entire raid force combined shouldn't exist. On Seal Team raids, if I'm grouped with the enchanter, we get the exp on basically every single kill. Max level on charm should be like 35. Hell, even a level 35 fully buffed pet would still be a monster but at least wouldn't be utterly game breaking. Either that or change the duration to be similar to bard charm, 20 seconds tops.

the level cap doesn't work atm, I charm red cons all the time

[derpcake2]

So what do you suggest besides that?

I think "MuH FeeLz" covers it.

[strawman]

the level cap doesn't work atm, I charm red cons all the time

that's correct for charm, beguile and cajoling whispers in the early levels you have the spells

good luck holding red cons for more than a few seconds though

[derpcake2]

that's correct for charm, beguile and cajoling whispers in the early levels you have the spells

good luck holding red cons for more than a few seconds though

I thought it would be obvious that was a troll.

Sorry to have confused you.

[sentinel]

bumping for visibility

[bubur]

reposting a classic guide that includes charm, suggesting it existed and worked fine

https://web.archive.org/web/20000621221742/http://eq.stratics.com/classes/enchanter/classes_enc_ruri.shtml

[DMN]

We never used charms on vanilla dragons( i don't remember why frankly) on fennin but we used them a lot in to clear PoF trash. it is true though most of vanilla timeline you virtually never would see enchanters charming in groups and maintaining pets or soloing for that matter. I already mentioned why this was the case, though, but also forgot to mention the GC resetting clickables. Those were huge for chanters efficiently maintaining charms.

[Bazia]

heres this guide showing an ENC soloing naggy with a CH chain imp protector

looks like i win and 12 of the 14 classes available will be irrelevant

definitely not stoopid

[DMN]

heres this guide showing an ENC soloing naggy with a CH chain imp protector

looks like i win and 12 of the 14 classes available will be irrelevant

definitely not stoopid

Want a whaaaburger with your cries?

[jacob54311]

It wouldn't be unheard of for them to tweak something that was classic for purposes of overall gameplay being improved.

Chanter doesn't seem to be one of those things, though. They seem satisfied with how that class is functioning, despite it being so powerful. Might as well let it go.

[derpcake2]

heres this guide showing an ENC soloing naggy with a CH chain imp protector

at what level does enchanter gain CH?

i know charming 3 imp protectors while having a clr along will let me kill naggy, but you are saying I can CH the imps myself?

[Vizax_Xaziv]

How did the Charm pets hold aggro on Naggy? While being CHed as well?

[bubur]

How did the Charm pets hold aggro on Naggy? While being CHed as well?

my guess is hes talking about the aoe/fear phases, where the raid force can intermittently go behind a corner to avoid dmg especially as a bunch of scrappy classic folks on the first dragon attempts

if seal teal did this as a primary strat, id call them foolish. if they held together a main tank death with an enc charm, it was pretty lucky... if it happened at all?

so basically nerf CH am i right guys? er wait. nerf corners

[Ligma]

I like how this thread has turned into complaining about an imp tanking naggy with soulfires. Even though it's on video and the warrior was tanking the whole time.

[Frostback]

WHY NOT CHARM! Reply... By: Anonymous
Posted @ Fri, Aug 25th 11:28 AM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
I see such a waste in one of the greatest power enchanters commonly do not use. CHARM. This method requires you have faith in your healer. Basically, Head into a dungeon and charm a nuker for HOURS at a time. This charm will do twice the damage of any tanks in your group and is easy to keep.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020129221717/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=13&start=450

Sounds like people were charming back in the day just fine.

[cd288]

I may be a highly intuitive pisces, but your tone is obvious. And that doesn't answer the question besides that you're jealous of a more powerful class that you don't want to play. Ok then.



Now we found the real reason because this is deeper than a simple, "I just want the game to be balanced." You don't want them getting all the loot so "easily". Would you feel differently if you were in the raid? Rhetorical question.

Exactly lol. This isn’t about disinterested people for no reason just adamantly wanting “balance”. It’s because they’re annoyed there’s a powerful solo class competing with them for camps and loot. Wouldn’t be surprised if half these people are playing other solo classes.

And nerfing enchanters won’t solve the issue. That these people have because everyone wanting to solo on enchanters will just re-roll necros. So you’d really need to nerf every class so they can’t solo in order to resolve the true thing people have an issue with

[cd288]

https://web.archive.org/web/20020129221717/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=13&start=450

Sounds like people were charming back in the day just fine.

Damn did this just end the thread? Probably not because what people really want is less competition for loot

Like I said earlier, by around Kunark launch people were charming with pretty good frequency

[Darkslide632]

https://web.archive.org/web/20020129221717/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=13&start=450

Sounds like people were charming back in the day just fine.

"Aye... and note that while Charmies are quite risky to use as they tend to turn on you (anything blue or better will within a short amount of time (at least when under 150 cha)) they are severely more effective in that short term than your own pet; "

They weren't. It's broken. And it's broken the game significantly, in a number of ways at this point. It shouldn't surprise me that people try to say otherwise, that it's functioning as it should be, but it's wrong regardless.

[Bazia]

just wait till sky when some stupid charming shit happens again like it did on blue which initiated the only ever charm nerf in p99 history

[TripSin]

I just realized Enchanters don't even have the clarity line. And you want to take away charm, too?

lmao wtf

Mez is also broken. May as well nerf that, too.

[cd288]

just wait till sky when some stupid charming shit happens again like it did on blue which initiated the only ever charm nerf in p99 history

Well if there was a nerf on Blue than I’d imagine we’ll be all good on Green since that should be reflected in the code already. Thanks for stopping by bud!

[cd288]

"Aye... and note that while Charmies are quite risky to use as they tend to turn on you (anything blue or better will within a short amount of time (at least when under 150 cha)) they are severely more effective in that short term than your own pet; "

They weren't. It's broken. And it's broken the game significantly, in a number of ways at this point. It shouldn't surprise me that people try to say otherwise, that it's functioning as it should be, but it's wrong regardless.

#OkNecro

[Dolalin]

Lots of mobs were made charm immune in sky, for exactly the same reason that it was nerfed on p99.

[DiogenesThaDogg]

what level should I be able to charm mobs while XPing efficiently? at 12 I don't have enough mana to charm kill more than 2, but with an animation I can kill several mobs in a row.

[loramin]

what level should I be able to charm mobs while XPing efficiently? at 12 I don't have enough mana to charm kill more than 2, but with an animation I can kill several mobs in a row.

I think it's less about specific levels, and more about when you can kill four mobs with the same animation, or two mobs with fresh animations, faster than you can charm two. And "faster" should take into account mana regen time.

If you keep your animation you're only getting 1/2 XP, which means you need to kill four mobs to get the same XP that you'd get from killing two another way. For instance, if you fight a mob down to low HP, then kill off your pet before you finish the mob off, you get full XP (but of course that takes longer), and the same is true in charm fighting because you break charm before either dies.

So your options (for equal XP) are:


four with same animation
two, killing the animation before each one's death
two, killed via charm fighting


For any given level/hunting spot just kill six mobs each way, and time it, then do whichever is fastest. It will depend on lots of other factors (eg. high damage/low HP mobs are great for charming, while the reverse are probably better for your animation).

EDIT:

P.S. As for all the other nonsense in this thread ... OF COURSE Enchanters could charm in classic. No one (serious) has ever disputed that Charm existed in classic and that Enchanters had it.

(Shaman did too, but in one more piece of evidence for the crazy "Nibog <3s Enchanters" theory, which I absolutely don't believe in but keep finding more and more evidence for ... they had it removed from their very brief, 100% classic period of having it ... while Enchanters have been unclassicaly charming here for over ten years).

Back to the point, the question has always been about the fine details of the mechanics (or possibly missing mechanics). Those fine details are hard to pin down, and hard to argue about definitively (thus this insanely long thread) ... but to me all you have to do is "zoom out", and then it's apparent to everyone (except Enchanter defenders) that those mechanics can't possibly be accurate relative to live.

[cd288]

I think it's less about specific levels, and more about when you can kill four mobs with the same animation, or two mobs with fresh animations, faster than you can charm two. And "faster" should take into account mana regen time.

If you keep your animation you're only getting 1/2 XP, which means you need to kill four mobs to get the same XP that you'd get from killing two another way. For instance, if you fight a mob down to low HP, then kill off your pet before you finish the mob off, you get full XP (but of course that takes longer), and the same is true in charm fighting because you break charm before either dies.

So your options (for equal XP) are:


four with same animation
two, killing the animation before each one's death
two, killed via charm fighting


For any given level/hunting spot just kill six mobs each way, and time it, then do whichever is fastest. It will depend on lots of other factors (eg. high damage/low HP mobs are great for charming, while the reverse are probably better for your animation).

EDIT:

P.S. As for all the other nonsense in this thread ... OF COURSE Enchanters could charm in classic. No one (serious) has ever disputed that Charm existed in classic and that Enchanters had it.

(Shaman did too, but in one more piece of evidence for the crazy "Nibog <3s Enchanters" theory, which I absolutely don't believe in but keep finding more and more evidence for ... they had it removed from their very brief, 100% classic period of having it ... while Enchanters have been unclassicaly charming here for over ten years).

Back to the point, the question has always been about the fine details of the mechanics (or possibly missing mechanics). Those fine details are hard to pin down, and hard to argue about definitively (thus this insanely long thread) ... but to me all you have to do is "zoom out", and then it's apparent to everyone (except Enchanter defenders) that those mechanics can't possibly be accurate relative to live.

It’s clearly not “apparent to everyone” since there’s like 4 people including you who are the only people constantly complaining on this thread. But a theme with your posts is offering your own opinion as fact that everyone agrees with, so I’m not surprised by this comment.

[bubur]

but to me all you have to do is "zoom out", and then it's apparent to everyone (except Enchanter defenders) that those mechanics can't possibly be accurate relative to live.

Ok hear me out. I'm actually going to use punctuation here, so you know this is serious business.

Actual live classic used a different client, so there were absolutely fine details that were different. 100% with you there. Pathing, pet commands, pet bugs, agro mechanics with things as simple as your char sitting down, so i get that. There may have also been server instability, home client instability, community pressure for enc to just "do their job and mez." Also remember that the classic most of us remember is only about 2 years of time around Y2K. By Velious there's a mounting evidence people were charming in raids, and by PoP they were using it to solo Bastion. Then sometime in GoD (starting Feb, 2004) they did the big enc nerf, so between 1999-2004, enough came to the attention to staff to want to nerf charm. What we seem to be disagreeing about is what the staff should do right now

The argument I and perhaps others have kept making is: the actual charm spell itself may have been the same (you have to admit its a possibility), but all kinds of factors play into the community using it as we do 10 years later on emulation. It's not that the community back then was stupid. It could have been all of the reasons I mentioned above. No one knows exactly when charm turned from "not widely used" in classic, to "nerf-worthy" in GoD within those 4 years.

and here's a little about that nerf from this random website (https://strategywiki.org/wiki/EverQuest/Character_classes/Enchanter):

The enchanter summoned pets, more correctly referred to as animations, and frequently nicknamed Shiny Bob are low in HP and attack rating relative to most other summoned pets, excluding shadowknight pets and druid bear pets. To counterbalance this, enchanters have the ability to charm mobs, although this ability has now been severely restricted following the nerf which severely limits the DPS of charm mobs in many of the newer zones, i.e. those after Gates of Discord expansion.

The nuance with this is that the enc charm was nerfed while they were given other tools, like better dps, runes, damage shields, etc. They traded in charm strength for other tools. If you apply the nerf on p99 as a blanket (which isn't even how they did it on live, which was new zones only), you really run the risk of destroying enchanter's ability to solo anything. If that's your goal, fine, we can discuss that too...

But let's be clear. What is being floated as a proposal here is asking the staff to implement a strictly custom solution to the charm "problem" which I summarize as enc's being more powerful at solo content and better dps than anyone else in the game, when geared and used effectively. So I'll level with you... let's talk solutions:

-do we reduce all dmg on charms? 50% dmg is better than 0% so in raids people will still do it and for soloing, people will reverse charm
-do we make it so charm can't hold agro? enc have root, dru and necro have snare
-do we increase the resist rate on charm? if so, what's the goal? do you want it to only last 30 seconds on average? or are we lookin at 2-3 min? or what is it? at that point you walk a fine line of just removing charm from the enc toolset as a viable option
-do you want to add diminishing returns on a target to charm? that may force them to cycle through mobs, but i dont think it will slow anyone down.. also its asking the staff to problem something new in an archaic code. maybe they can do it, but is it worth the work? what is the benefit to the community by doing this? can we measure it?

I'm afraid that what you'd really be doing is presenting a trivial challenge for the hardcore players that are already locking down dungeons and optimizing charm mob dps on raids to get creative and use the same tools in a slightly different way, while totally demolishing the power of charm for everyone else. That's a real concern with a nerf directly aimed at the "hardcore players" like this, and I don't want the emotions seen in this thread to obscure that potential. The grass is not always greener.

Also, think about an enc toolset. It's not just charm: you have your color shift, mes, tash, recharm... rinse repeat. If you can get a big enough, quick-enough regenning mana pool you can charm all day. What I don't agree with is that enc on teal/green are some godly force, the ungeared ones have plenty of problems holding a charm and surviving if they dare to haste it. The risk-reward is still there.

You call me an "enchanter defender" but I don't main one. I've played an enc, but I don't mind if they get a nerf. I'd even still play a mage right now, whenever I'm done with my op druid, so I am not just defending enchanters for no reason. I don't like the idea of nerfing something just because a handful of people made a thread and called everyone that disagreed with them retards and trolls. Just because it's now a long thread doesn't mean its any more of a good idea. It just means we keep bumping it.

But how do we realistically level the playing field? That is, to a) lessen the enc's ability to "trivialize content", while b) not removing charm as a viable tool altogether, and c) in a way that is feasible to ask of the staff. When you start getting into custom coding for diminishing returns, for example, you're going into writing new spell mechanics... something I haven't seen on really emulated everquest, probably for some coding challenge reason that I am not skilled enough to understand. Something about spaghetti ?

Let's look at the other "OP" thing in bard kiting: On blue, they changed it from entire zones to 25 mob max on blue. 25 mobs is still a lot. Staff clearly didn't want to stop bards from doing it entirely. They don't mind if you level your bard in a way that is far and away more efficient than anything else in the game. Staff interest was in preventing zone disruption, so a single bard can't completely consume Overthere and Burning Woods. On green/teal they reduced it to 4 because Rogean was presented with sufficient evidence (it only took 1 post btw).. and it will eventually be brought back to 25.

I don't yet see a clear solution (or a real equivalent justification) that can be applied to charm. I see any disruptive problems here. Who is losing out on content due to enc's? On teal I wish we had more dungeon farmers (necro and enc alike), because our economy is slow. Guy cant even get ahold of an embroidered black cape round here.

meh im trying to be reasonable, if not a little trolly on pages 40 or 80 or whatever... but being constantly disregarded as an enc defender, a retard, and someone who hates classic is tiring. there is a legit reason to resist unclassic (or at least customized) nerfs, even if there is a precedent, time, and place for them. I'm not convinced this is it

yeah its a lot of text. it wasn't worth it

[ArunaGreen]

Simply reducing the max level of mobs that you can charm is the best way to accomplish the nerf without destroying the spell. This would also require the least amount of work as all that would need to be changed is a single # I believe. If you don't think enchanters are a godly force then you're simply clueless. A single chanter doing the equivalent of an entire raid force in DPS is what exactly if not ridiculously OP/godly? No other class except a necro doing the same exact thing in Lguk is anywhere near the power level of an enchanter.

[bubur]

just sounds like what someone would say watching an enc through a window

get behind the wheel of a classic-geared 50 chanter with no clarity and try it. its not easy to clean out lguk by oneself on either a necro or enc. yeah a handful of people have gotten good at it. there are some shamans and druids that do pretty well too. as for the raid parses, havent seem em. dont kno, but yeah i pretty much believe it if we're talking about the chanter pets in aggregate

[DMN]

Druid bear pets? You can't be fucking serious?

[cd288]

Simply reducing the max level of mobs that you can charm is the best way to accomplish the nerf without destroying the spell. This would also require the least amount of work as all that would need to be changed is a single # I believe. If you don't think enchanters are a godly force then you're simply clueless. A single chanter doing the equivalent of an entire raid force in DPS is what exactly if not ridiculously OP/godly? No other class except a necro doing the same exact thing in Lguk is anywhere near the power level of an enchanter.

Not classic. If you want non-classic nerfs based on arbitrary “balance” (read: I can’t monopolize the camps because Enchanters are doing them instead) concerns, maybe try a different server.

You sound like a Necro who is annoyed there are people better at soloing than you. #OkayNecro

[ArunaGreen]

Not classic. If you want non-classic nerfs based on arbitrary “balance” (read: I can’t monopolize the camps because Enchanters are doing them instead) concerns, maybe try a different server.

You sound like a Necro who is annoyed there are people better at soloing than you. #OkayNecro

I'm a bard you complete tool bag troll.

[Vormotus]

This thread has me like this https://i.imgur.com/lwOU49A.gif

[derpcake2]

yeah its a lot of text. it wasn't worth it

In case you didn't notice, Loramin is a very happy, positive, and friendly troll :D:D:D:D

This specific kind of troll hides its nature by pretending it lives under a rainbow, but its still just a troll.

[vossiewulf]

With just a few minutes of searching I was able to find some relevant info that showed what enchanters were thinking and the testing results they had from before Kunark. I have to think an actual determined search would at least be able to confirm that we are or are not out of alignment with the original game.

I mean we are, but nothing someone says today is terribly relevant other than to suggest that digging for less squishy data is called for, as that's the only way to resolve the disagreement.

[Ligma]

The information has already been presented like 700 posts ago. People just really like to complain.

[derpcake2]

Druid bear pets? You can't be fucking serious?

Ever seen a good druid charm monkeys in PoF?

Didn't think so.

[cd288]

I'm a bard you complete tool bag troll.

Ah so that explains it. You’re mad you can only AoE 4 mobs at a time and therefore think everyone else should be nerfed to help cure your saltiness. Good luck!

[Wurl]

Ok hear me out
I read all of your post, thanks for the effort. I think there's a good discussion to be had about what exactly we should do to fix enchanters being un-classicly the highest DPS class.

[cd288]

I read all of your post, thanks for the effort. I think there's a good discussion to be had about what exactly we should do to fix enchanters being un-classicly the highest DPS class.

#OkNecro

[Wurl]

#OkNecro
My main is enchanter, I'm just not pixel-poisoned. Your hashtag posting is cringe as heck though!

[cd288]

My main is enchanter, I'm just not pixel-poisoned. Your hashtag posting is cringe as heck though!

Okay Necro

[WaffleztheAndal]

I’m sure Nilbog and Co are keeping an eye on the situation. They have enacted unclassic raid changes to preserve balance before. If need be they will do so again.

[anisoptera]

comin in with my very first post on this forum just to say

balance is not classic

[anisoptera]

Also I rolled an enchanter partly because I wanted to be able to drop money on the ground and then Minor Illusion into it. Seems like MI doesn't work outside towns or something, and we can't drop money anyway, so my hoped experience as a talking piece of copper is ruined.

The real tragedy is Minor Illusion here. That should be the priority fix.

[loramin]

In case you didn't notice, Loramin is a very happy, positive, and friendly troll :D:D:D:D

This specific kind of troll hides its nature by pretending it lives under a rainbow, but its still just a troll.

Thanks? :confused:

Look, people can attack me personally all they want. According to the forum rules those are supposed to stay in RnF, but /shrug.

Here's the thing though: attacking me personally won't change how EverQuest was back in 1999-2001.

I’m sure Nilbog and Co are keeping an eye on the situation. They have enacted unclassic raid changes to preserve balance before. If need be they will do so again.

That is mostly correct, but look: Nilbog is only human, as a dedicated "classicist" he's only got two inputs to make anything in the game classic: evidence and player feedback. And because he cares so much about classic, he depends on them heavily. Thus, unclassic Enchanters make perfect sense: no one has surfaced obvious evidence of what P99 has wrong, so he hasn't fixed them yet.

But crucially, he doesn't just go by evidence! Take the AoE nerf: Nilbog did not retreat to a mountain, surveil the game and all available evidence, and then decide "The Overthere wasn't like this in 2000!"

... and can you blame him? If you're dedicated to classic and it's been 20 years since you saw live OT, you're not just going to change it without evidence based on your 20-year old feels. He needed the community to weigh in and say "this needs fixing to be classic" (and also, in that specific case, to be manageable for the all-volunteer staff, as AoE fights used up a lot of their time).

So once again, even though I believe Nilbog isn't a fanboy and cares far more about classic than me or probably anyone else in this thread ... I don't think we can just wait for him to look up from the code and decide that because the big picture isn't "1999", he needs to change it. I think we need to "make some noise", to encourage him to find a new, creative, and above all more classic set of mechanics.

Because again, without getting into the weeds of an specific mechanic change, and losing "the forest from the trees" ... it should be obvious to all who have played here and on live that P99 Enchanters are not yet classic.

[Frostback]

I read all of your post, thanks for the effort. I think there's a good discussion to be had about what exactly we should do to fix enchanters being un-classicly the highest DPS class.

I think that's the point you're missing, enchanters are classicly the highest DPS class.

proper manipulation of their spells will cause the enchanter to outperform any other class, it's just a matter of using the correct spell
https://web.archive.org/web/20000621221742/http://eq.stratics.com/classes/enchanter/classes_enc_ruri.shtml

[Vizax_Xaziv]

I think that's the point you're missing, enchanters are classicly the highest DPS class.


https://web.archive.org/web/20000621221742/http://eq.stratics.com/classes/enchanter/classes_enc_ruri.shtml

People keep posting that link in defense of Chanters. This is the first sentence under the Charming section of that guide:


"Charm, Beguile, etc.. - Will most likely not be used in excess, but will come in handy."

He continues, under the "Soloing as an Enchanter" section of the guide:

"First thing is to make a pet. I highly suggest against using Charm to solo. Although Charming may get more monsters killed, it's quite risky, and you never know when that faithful Mesmerise spell may fizzle :D"

[Dreenk317]

The aoe nerf wa not because of bards. Bards were a factor yes. But the overwhelming reason that aoe got nerfed was the chardok aoe groups. They would literally pull the ENTIRE zone. Not just most of it, or all the camps you want. But every mob. Then they would use aoe stuns and nukes to lock and burn them down. Charging people upwards of 3kpp per pull to sit in the exp group.

It made chardok unplayable, completely. I dont know of any bard that makes an ENTIRE zone unplayable, let alone one that has some really good drops and quest drops for multiple class epics.

I also dont know a single enchanter that can do this. Equating the current state of enchanter charm, broken or not, to something as massive as what lead up to the aoe nerf is just silly. I guarantee if they nerf chanters, a new meta for a dif class will just take its place, and you will be crying about them soon enough.

[Frostback]

People keep posting that in defense of Chanters. This is the first sentence under the Charming section of that guide:


"Charm, Beguile, etc.. - Will most likely not be used in excess"

Because of technological limitations which are not present now.

[loramin]

The aoe nerf wa not because of bards. Bards were a factor yes. But the overwhelming reason that aoe got nerfed was the chardok aoe groups. They would literally pull the ENTIRE zone. Not just most of it, or all the camps you want. But every mob. Then they would use aoe stuns and nukes to lock and burn them down. Charging people upwards of 3kpp per pull to sit in the exp group.

It made chardok unplayable, completely. I dont know of any bard that makes an ENTIRE zone unplayable, let alone one that has some really good drops and quest drops for multiple class epics.

I also dont know a single enchanter that can do this. Equating the current state of enchanter charm, broken or not, to something as massive as what lead up to the aoe nerf is just silly. I guarantee if they nerf chanters, a new meta for a dif class will just take its place, and you will be crying about them soon enough.

I made an analogy: analogies don't line up on every point exactly. If they did they'd be the same case, not analogies :)

As I freely admitted, the CS demands were a major factor in the AoE nerf (and of course that isn't the case with Enchanters). While I disagree with you that Chardok was the problem (because Chardok didn't result in petitions: the AoE crowd just owned the zone and everyone happily paid them, whereas OT resulted in lots of petitions) ... it really doesn't matter which zone was "to blame".

The point is, P99 had a faithful recreation of EQ mechanics. There was not a single thing you could point to and say "that's not classic" about how the Bard songs worked, or anything else. But, The Overthere (and Chardok) were both very clearly not classic ... just as Enchanters aren't. (And also, Bards back then used the exact same "our mechanics are perfectly classic" argument used by Enchanters in this thread.)

Since Enchanters aren't causing CS headaches, that leaves us with only two options. The lame one: petition Enchanters a lot until the staff gets tired of the petitions ;) ... or the reasonable one, which is to say "Hey Nilbog, we want classic EQ, and as far as all of us remember, Enchanters weren't even in the top five, let alone the best DPS in the game!"

http://i.imgur.com/1gBWIug.gif

Some piece of the "secret sauce" of classic EQ is still missing here, and as players who've gotten to enjoy R&N's amazing decade of emulator work, I feel we all have a duty to support them however we can to make this place as classic as possible ... and I see making some noise to get them to "see the forest" as part of that.

[bubur]

As players enjoying R&N's amazing emulator work, we all have a duty to help them, and that means supporting a more classic P99.

it's exactly this reason that i resist a custom enc charm nerf with no proposed definition.

i hope you can understand this. if you can come up with a reasonable solution that would make me confident the game would be more like it was in 1999, then i'd be more likely to consider supporting it. as of now, i don't really see the practical nerf, that is, the mechanical change in charm, that you're suggesting "all of us" are asking for

i for one, am not. this is how it is on every tlp, this is how its been on p99 since the beginning. this is how it could have been on live save for some *unknown factors*

if we can figure out what those are, i'm onboard man, but this demanding change without defining it is a little outrageous

[loramin]

it's exactly this reason that i resist a custom enc charm nerf with no proposed definition.

i hope you can understand this. if you can come up with a reasonable solution that would make me confident the game would be more like it was in 1999, then i'd be more likely to consider supporting it. as of now, i don't really see the practical nerf, that is, the mechanical change in charm, that you're suggesting "all of us" are asking for

i for one, am not. this is how it is on every tlp, this is how its been on p99 since the beginning. this is how it could have been on live save for some *unknown factors*

if we can figure out what those are, i'm onboard man, but this demanding change without defining it is a little outrageous

I feel like you're trying to engage with/understand me (which I greatly respect, as it's too rare here) ... but also we're missing each other. I am not saying "I'VE FOUND THE SOLUTION!!!"

(If I did, that'd be awesome, and I'd be posting evidence for it instead of talking here :))

I'm just saying "I SEE AN (UNCLASSIC) PROBLEM!" It's like if a house is on fire: just because I'm not a firefighter and I can't stop it, that doesn't mean I shouldn't call the people who can, or that I should listen to the guy next to me (who hates his neighbor) and says "houses are totally supposed to do that, don't call anyone" ...

[bubur]

I feel like you're trying to engage with/understand me (which I greatly respect, as it's too rare here) ... but also we're missing each other. I am not saying "I'VE FOUND THE SOLUTION!!!" If I did, that'd be awesome, and I'd be posting evidence for it instead of talking here.

I'm just saying "I SEE AN (UNCLASSIC) PROBLEM!" Lots of people are arguing with me and "no problem here" ... when I think everyone without a horse in the race can clearly see that "shit ain't classic."

there aint nothing we cant solve together baby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zh8YAU9TPU

[Frostback]

"just as OT and Chardok weren't classic, even though every last mechanic seemed like it was ... in that exact same way Enchanters aren't"

I don't think enchanters are disrupting the game as much as AOE in chardok was.

we all have a duty to help them, and that means supporting a more classic P99.

That doesn't mean replicate exactly what happened in 1999. When I play p1999, I feel like i'm still playing old school eq.

[loramin]

there aint nothing we cant solve together baby

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zh8YAU9TPU

Great: I can never unsee that. Now I have to go scrub my eyes/ears out and try to listen to some European power metal or something ;)

[loramin]

I don't think enchanters are disrupting the game as much as AOE in chardok was.
Yeah again I was making an analogy. The part that's similar between the AoE nerf and Enchanters is that in both cases the mechanics were completely correct ... but the game wasn't classic.

But again, just because I compare two things in some way, it does not mean I'm saying they are the same in every other way. For instance, I'm very much not trying to say Enchanters are as disruptive ... in fact I said the exact opposite:

Since Enchanters aren't causing CS headaches ...

That doesn't mean replicate exactly what happened in 1999. When I play p1999, I feel like i'm still playing old school eq.

This is not staff-bashing :) R&N have done an incredible, amazing job of re-creating classic EverQuest, and I truly appreciate what they've done.

But if you read what they write (and both rarely post much anymore), I think one thing is clear: R&N feel more passionately about re-creating classic EverQuest than just about anyone on the planet. How better can we thank such people than by helping them to make their 98.5% classic server 98.7% classic? :D

[cd288]

Thanks? :confused:

Look, people can attack me personally all they want. According to the forum rules those are supposed to stay in RnF, but /shrug.

Here's the thing though: attacking me personally won't change how EverQuest was back in 1999-2001.



That is mostly correct, but look: Nilbog is only human, as a dedicated "classicist" he's only got two inputs to make anything in the game classic: evidence and player feedback. And because he cares so much about classic, he depends on them heavily. Thus, unclassic Enchanters make perfect sense: no one has surfaced obvious evidence of what P99 has wrong, so he hasn't fixed them yet.

But crucially, he doesn't just go by evidence! Take the AoE nerf: Nilbog did not retreat to a mountain, surveil the game and all available evidence, and then decide "The Overthere wasn't like this in 2000!"

... and can you blame him? If you're dedicated to classic and it's been 20 years since you saw live OT, you're not just going to change it without evidence based on your 20-year old feels. He needed the community to weigh in and say "this needs fixing to be classic" (and also, in that specific case, to be manageable for the all-volunteer staff, as AoE fights used up a lot of their time).

So once again, even though I believe Nilbog isn't a fanboy and cares far more about classic than me or probably anyone else in this thread ... I don't think we can just wait for him to look up from the code and decide that because the big picture isn't "1999", he needs to change it. I think we need to "make some noise", to encourage him to find a new, creative, and above all more classic set of mechanics.

Because again, without getting into the weeds of an specific mechanic change, and losing "the forest from the trees" ... it should be obvious to all who have played here and on live that P99 Enchanters are not yet classic.

You’re missing the part where there’s a massive difference between essentially killing all the mobs in a zone (or in the case of the over there, all the mobs within the specific area of the zone dedicated to that level) at once and Enchanters soloing single camps lol. The former is zone disruption, the latter is normal EQ which people just like to whine about.

By the end of the pre-Kunark days, I saw tons of Enchanters charm soloing on many different servers during the course of my CSR duties. You’re simply wrong.

[Frostback]

How better can we thank such people than by helping them to make their 98.5% classic server 98.7% classic?
By doing research and posting evidence rather than petition. I'm with Bubar on this, I think any changes made to the enchanter class would make the server less classic than more. It's hard to find old school guides on charming, but any guide that you can find from 1999-2001 supports the conclusion that enchanters were capable of charming the same on live as here on p1999.

[kul69]

By doing research and posting evidence rather than petition. I'm with Bubar on this, I think any changes made to the enchanter class would make the server less classic than more. It's hard to find old school guides on charming, but any guide that you can find from 1999-2001 supports the conclusion that enchanters were capable of charming the same on live as here on p1999.

So Necro will be getting unresistable lifetaps back and dagger delay for pets or just Enchanter gets to remain overpowered because "classic"? Bard can AE kite again? Chardok AE is open? If Enchanter isn't nerfed it is only because of favoritism at this point.

Also, Enchanter charm is still not classic. I played an Enchanter on live. I can add to all the anecdotal stories. It was never this easy and reliable. Not until Velious and beyond.

There has already been a ton turned up in this thread. Tashan being resistable. "Kunark era" charm rules, what was classic? CHA impacting per tick break rates. Pet taking experience even in groups. Literally a ton of things to look into.

Regardless of all those obvious factors impacting why charm is abused here it still deserves a nerf purely to keep things in line with how other classes were nerfed. Otherwise it is just favoring the Enchanter class and deciding it alone gets to be overpowered. Unnerf everyone or nerf Enchanter or admit P99 is a joke and not trying to recreate classic.

[loramin]

C'mon people, enough with the straw men!!! Have an honest discussion!

For those that don't understand what a straw man is, allow me to explain this dishonest rhetorical tactic.

Person A says something reasonable, like say "Enchanters are obviously not the same here as on live". Person B has nothing logical/rational they can use to argue with person A's point ... so they create a "straw man", ie. the pretend person A was arguing for something they weren't, because they can argue with that.

These are straw men:

I saw tons of Enchanters charm soloing on many different servers during the course of my CSR duties. You’re simply wrong.

any guide that you can find from 1999-2001 supports the conclusion that enchanters were capable of charming the same on live as here on p1999.

And I already directly addressed these straw men earlier:

P.S. As for all the other nonsense in this thread ... OF COURSE Enchanters could charm in classic. No one (serious) has ever disputed that Charm existed in classic and that Enchanters had it.

So, when I say "live wasn't like this", and your response is "but live totally had Enchanters charming", it just shows you have nothing to say to the point I'm actually making, and you have to shadow box with your imagination of what I'm saying to have anything to argue over.

[loramin]

Wow, thread got moved to RnF mid-post :)

Wasn't able to edit and correct; this should be:
ie. they pretend person A was arguing ...

[kul69]

Moved to RnF. No response from staff.

Favoritism for Enchanter it is.

[derpcake2]

Moved to RnF.

Only because the forum doesn't have a trashcan section.

[loramin]

Moved to RnF. No response from staff.

Favoritism for Enchanter it is.

Again, I think there is evidence to support such a conclusion, especially given some recent decisions ... BUT ... there are mountains more evidence that Nilbog cares more about classic EQ than anything else (certainly more than any favoritism).

I mean, the guy's human, so maybe he has a slight unconscious bias towards whatever class he played on live. But if you look at his body of work (10 years of P99), I think it's disrespectful to let a few recent decisions which look like favoritism be equated as favoritism.

[Frostback]

Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin View Post
P.S. As for all the other nonsense in this thread ... OF COURSE Enchanters could charm in classic. No one (serious) has ever disputed that Charm existed in classic and that Enchanters had it.
So, when I say "live wasn't like this", and your response is "but live totally had Enchanters charming", it just shows you have nothing to say to the point I'm actually making, and you have to shadow box with your imagination of what I'm saying to have anything to argue over.

This discussion is about charm mechanics and how powerful it was on live in 1999 vs now on p1999. When you say live wasn't like this, that's just your opinion. I'm not really arguing anything, but what i've read from old school guides seems to support that it's classic.

[bwe]

Enchanters were #1 dps on live everyone who thinks otherwise has brain damage

[Ligma]

This shit again

[Tecmos Deception]

Looks like the other thread got moved to RnF and then deleted when people started talking about favoritism for certain classes when comparing Necro vs Enchanter. Odd.

Enchanter charm isn't classic and needs to be nerfed or Necro lifetaps and dagger delay should be unnerfed. Simple as that. No more selective "classic" nerfs and OP classes left untouched.

Last thread had data in it of classic era tests supporting p99 durations but with charisma not even needed to get them. Classic chanter guides back up charm on p99 being pretty classic. Etc.

It's just random, brief anecdotes with no context and "memories" of some players and general class balance concerns supporting charm nerfs. None of which are relevant.

[this user was banned]

YOU aren't classic

[bwe]

Lol they deleted the thread. Pathetic

[Rang]

lot of mad ppl who can't play enchanter well in here

[bwe]

Tecmos used his enchanter to RMT

[cornisthebest]

charisma should either start mattering, or matter more.

[Ligma]

You just want enchanters nerfed because necros got fucked. No one ever even advocated for necros to be nerfed. You're just a bitter asshole.

[Frostback]

WHY NOT CHARM! Reply... By: Anonymous
Posted @ Fri, Aug 25th 11:28 AM 2000 Score: Default[2.00]
I see such a waste in one of the greatest power enchanters commonly do not use. CHARM. This method requires you have faith in your healer. Basically, Head into a dungeon and charm a nuker for HOURS at a time. This charm will do twice the damage of any tanks in your group and is easy to keep.
https://web.archive.org/web/20020129221717/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=13&start=450

[Ligma]

https://web.archive.org/web/20020129221717/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=13&start=450

Thread over. No need to go to 90 pages again.

[cd288]

Lmao Loramin give it up dude. The staff just showed you how much they cared about your opinion by moving this thread to RnF lol

[Pozzey]

Just deal with it.

All pet classes on Green are broken.

Move along.

[Frostback]

CHA only affected initial charm cast


RE: Charm questions Reply... By: srik,
1 posts
Posted @ Fri, Jan 4th 9:38 AM 2002 Score: Excellent[5.00]

I have read a lot of discussion regarding the effect of charisma on charm, mez, etc... Many people argue that CHA is worthless, max out int. I can only assume that they are lower level. It most certainly has a noticable effect on charms and (more importantly) mezes. However, unlike other posts, based on a limited observation, I refer you to the following:

Caster's Realm Nes Archive, November 10, 1999
http://eq.castersrealm.com/archives.asp?Day=All&Month=11&Year=1999&Action=View

October 8, 1999
http://eq.castersrealm.com/archives.asp?Day=All&Month=11&Year=1999&Action=View

Charisma affects the resist rate for all charm and mez-type spells (not just enchanters), and DOES affect the duration of charm. Charisma does not affect buffs.

I hope this helps.

-Srik
https://web.archive.org/web/20020124191258/http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=13

[this user was banned]

You begin casting Charm.
Your charm spell has worn off.
You begin casting Charm.
Your charm spell has worn off.
You begin casting Charm.
Your charm spell has worn off.

[Ligma]

It's getting kind of ridiculous and sad seeing this happen again.

[Frostback]

What is this supposed to be? I don't find the quote in your link and the links within the quote lead to nothing.

Yet.. it still doesn't matter, does it?

Enchanter charm is OP and needs to be nerfed same as Druid, Necro, Bard, and others who have had classic abilities taken away due to it being too powerful.

It's an everquest class strategy section on allakhazam that has people commenting on the enchanter class. If you look through the comments you can see the post i'm referring to which says "Charisma affects the resist rate for all charm and mez-type spells (not just enchanters), and DOES affect the duration of charm." If enchanter charm is op and too powerful then I would agree with you, i just don't think it is.

[cd288]

What is this supposed to be? I don't find the quote in your link and the links within the quote lead to nothing.

Yet.. it still doesn't matter, does it?

Enchanter charm is OP and needs to be nerfed same as Druid, Necro, Bard, and others who have had classic abilities taken away due to it being too powerful.

Sounds like we need to call a waaaaaambulance!

[jacob54311]

If enchanter charm is op and too powerful then I would agree with you, i just don't think it is.

Nah, it's not right for one class to outdamage everyone else in a group.

And I hear on raids Chanters can do even more ridiculous thing.

It's not that Chanters are overpowered. Perfect class balance is probably impossible to achieve since peoples' opinions will always differ. You'll never please everyone.

The problem with them is that they are WILDLY overpowered. The one thing you can say in favor of the status quo is well, it's classic. Or at least, you can't prove its NOT classic.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

EQClassic is shaping up to launch in the next 12-16 months. Will be interesting to see the state of Charm on there!

[Vizax_Xaziv]

The most interesting thing here is that the "Enchanter Defense Team" constantly states "shit's Classic" as the reason for Charm not getting a nerf, while simultaneously perfectly fine w/ the non-classic nerfs to Bards, Necros, Druids and other non-Class related nerfs that we've seen on P99 (/list for example).

CHANTERS NEED A ****ING NERF!

MAKE NORRATH GREAT AGAIN!

[Canelek]

Ahhh. Same dildo OP as other meltdown post. Enjoy your vacation!

[Bazia]

rogean is playing an enc

[cd288]

The most interesting thing here is that the "Enchanter Defense Team" constantly states "shit's Classic" as the reason for Charm not getting a nerf, while simultaneously perfectly fine w/ the non-classic nerfs to Bards, Necros, Druids and other non-Class related nerfs that we've seen on P99 (/list for example).

CHANTERS NEED A ****ING NERF!

MAKE NORRATH GREAT AGAIN!

Man we need the waaambulance back here for a second pick up already!

[cd288]

EQClassic is shaping up to launch in the next 12-16 months. Will be interesting to see the state of Charm on there!

Are you gonna go play there with like the 50-100 players who will play on it? *fingers crossed!*

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Are you gonna go play there with like the 50-100 players who will play on it? *fingers crossed!*

Now see I've seen similar statements several times which is interesting. EQClassic (IF it launches as advertised) is essentially everything you hardcore classicists have asked for.

1999 launch-era UI, full-screen book medding etc etc etc.

[cd288]

Now see I've seen similar statements several times which is interesting. EQClassic (IF it launches as advertised) is essentially everything you hardcore classicists have asked for.

1999 launch-era UI, full-screen book medding etc etc etc.

Well if you’re lucky they will also arbitrarily nerf enchanters so you’re necromancer can monopolize camps without competition

[cd288]

Your* /facepalm

[Nirgon]

so glad this dump of a thread got thrown in the rnf trash can lol

[Valeriya]

so glad this dump of a thread got thrown in the rnf trash can lol

Be quiet

[derpcake2]

Nice to see people finally get banned for their drivel.

[derpcake2]

https://i.imgur.com/e7TKu5a.gif

[cd288]

https://i.imgur.com/e7TKu5a.gif

Lol

[Nirgon]

Be quiet

they've tried to silence me for a long time

good luck

[Gwoben]

I just came across this thread and read first 20 pages or so. I was surprised nobody mentioned the broken channeling skill on P99 (and on live for that matter). Back then it was very difficult to channel any spell when mob was hitting you and pretty much impossible to channel anything if you were hit by multiple mobs or a hasted one. It was not enchanter specific, but it affected enchanters most because of our CC role and huge agro on Tash and nukes with stun component. Channeling got bugged some time in late Luclin. People were scoffing at a post where somebody said that tank has to intercept/taunt mobs on charm break, but it was indeed the best way to handle this situation. And that is the main reason you did not see enchanters solo charming in dungeons till PoP.
If anyone was following EQ forums you could remember that Prathun(?) found about the bug and fixed it years after if was broken (around 2006), but it was unnerfed couple days later due to caster's backslash. I can not find old EQ forums anywhere, but here is the evidence of EQ developers attempting to fix channeling bug:

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/history/patches-2006-1.html

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- We've reverted the fix to channeling made with the last patch. After much discussion, our general feeling is that channeling has been broken for long enough that players have come to rely on that broken behavior as expected gameplay. For the time being, we've reverted back to that broken behavior and will address spell interrupts in general at a later date.
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[Gwoben]

It was Rashere and here is a link to one of his posts: https://web.archive.org/web/20061207150714/http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/board/message?board.id=Veterans&message.id=239994

----------------------
I posted this in another thread, but will mention it here as well.

We fixed a problem with channeling that was causing it to basically be backwards. If you had no AAs, you channeled through damage 100% of the time and as you got AAs, that decreased. It now scales like it should, and like how it worked in the past, where you start out low, channel more often as you gain channeling skill, and your AAs increase that even further. You're going to see more interrupts than before simply because you are no longer channeling 100% of the time (or close to that if you had AAs that were decreasing it). Your chance to channel is still really high at high levels (it caps at 90%), though, assuming you have maxed channeling skill.

One caveat to this...channeling doesn't apply to being bashed, stunned, or moving. Even with a high channeling skill, if you get bashed, stunned, or moved too far, you're going to lose your spell. That hasn't changed.

Rashere
----------------------

"Broken" state looks exactly like what we got on P99 - you channel through hits all the time unless you get bashed/kicked.

[Fammaden]

Someone did mention channeling just like this but it basically got buried in all the more hotheaded arguments. You should submit that as evidence, not sure if its enough but would be pretty lulzy to see an across the board channeling nerf.

[cd288]

Someone did mention channeling just like this but it basically got buried in all the more hotheaded arguments. You should submit that as evidence, not sure if its enough but would be pretty lulzy to see an across the board channeling nerf.

That would honestly be hilarious. People started out by bitching about enchanters and it results in every magic using class getting nerfed in a significant way. I would love this.

[Tethler]

That would honestly be hilarious. People started out by bitching about enchanters and it results in every magic using class getting nerfed in a significant way. I would love this.

That would be one way to boost the melee player numbers on green/teal, haha

[Frostback]

So, why not charm? Simple. You cannot charm 95% of mobs in any of the planes as Allure is capped, and it is totally random in duration. If Enchanters are going to be told to rely on charm then Allure has to be upgraded to be castable on all NPC's (bar Dragons and Gods) and set durations have to be implemented.

{Editors note: Ok this is where I must disagree myself I use the charm series on a regular basis to replace my pet. I feel they are much more usefull than our pets for many reasons.
1. They require no regeant, thats right no more tiny daggers.
2. They obey commands (CHEER, my favorite part).
3. It reduces the number of incoming MOBs by one for crowd control.
4. get the caster, be it blaster or healer have its mana working for you and not against you.
As for the amount of creatures that are uncharmable I guess I haven't reached that point yet but if it is so maybe a boost to our high level spells would be in order after all this is one of our primary class roles.
But a few downfalls I have noticed also
1. your charmed pet will have a tendency, in Lower Guk especially, to warp if not in battle then return to you uncharmed with a large deadly train.
2. because many are not used to us charming things they tend to waste alot of mana on a MOB not bothering to notice it is doing no damage, this verant could fix with a simple warning line that you have targeted a charmed creature or as the spell goes off a line saying the Gods protect your target in the yellow warning color.}

If Enchanters are going to be reduced to Charm, Clarity, Mez and Stuns then they need some upgrades:

The cap on Allure upped, and random times removed.
Better clarity for grouping.
Unresistable/near unresistable mez spells.
Longer duration, less resisted AE stuns.
If it is not Verant's intent to reduce Enchanters to this role then they need to be givien some kind of combat upgrade. Possibilities include:

Stronger pets with commands.
More efficient and group friendly DD and DoT spells.
Enhancements to their slow and stat debuff spells to make them the leaders in this area.
I am not saying Enchanters are useless, but they are being forced into a role which they are becoming very quickly ill-equipped to handle in High Level zones.

On top of this are the little things for Enchanters:
Berserker Spirit being nerfed silently last patch losing 20% of its protective skin.
Still no full implementation of Item Enchantment after being told it would be included in March of 1999.
Mana Sieve & Curse of the Mind are for all intents useless on NPC's.
{Editors note: I was thinking on this one last night what if Mana Sieve where to give us a small ratio of the mana taken from the mob? Say 1:10 or so since we are not really great blasters and our mainstay is to debuff and charm this would have little chance of having an abusive application. I understand this may not fit so well into our perceived class type being a leach like spell but I never saw the original spell as much of an Illusionists trick either, unless you think of it like we are using the MoBs own thoughts against him.}
The Lull Series has a resist level so high it is a suicide spell on anything white or above.
Illusions now being for all intents purely for fun with the removal of the Enchanter scouting abilities. The bonuses on the illusions aren't really of any major benefit.
WTYH and DDD. These spells offer nothing a cheaper mana AE stun can't provide. And the AE stuns are resisted much less, and last much longer. They were meant to be fixed months ago...
{Editors note: not to mention the lack of item degradation that is harming our economic side.}
I point all of this out to show that there are class balance issues everywhere. Enchanter's are just one class which is need of retuning. Rogues, SK's, Paladins, Necromancers are all below what they should be at this moment as a result of recent patching and the game evolution. All we can do as players is keep the issues in Verant's face until something is done.
https://web.archive.org/web/20010425170127/http://enchanter.atomicgamers.com/volume7.html

[Arteker]

charm worked prety damm well in first expansion, kunark, but on velious it was high risk due to mobs higher resists.tash sticks being so common back then had a good reason .

the golden age of charming shit was luclin with pre nerf dire charm+magician new pet toys