Someone Translate this wall of text from Omni

[Fifield]

Default @Rogean @Nilbog @Staff re Raid Rules
A “competitive” server is only truly competitive when the playing field is level. Absent enforcement (or with sporadic/capricious enforcement), those who choose to push the envelope of the ruleset are rewarded. Those who choose to self-regulate are penalized. Period. You don’t win many races against guys who pee hot.

Currently, there are petitions in the queue that have not been addressed for months. Nobody’s available to answer questions re rules clarifications. The last public enforcement occurred in September of last year (more than six months ago). And we haven’t seen much staff presence at all since the beginning of December of last year.

To make this “competitive” server legitimately competitive (that seems to be what you want), please do one of two things:

1. Provide consistent, predictable enforcement
or
2. Get rid of the Raid Rules – let DPS decide

If you choose to provide enforcement, I suggest four things:

1. Come up with a simple ruleset that you can enforce with whatever resources that you have.
(You don't have the luxury of seven officials plus a replay guy - watching every encounter - like the NFL does. - Figure out what you have to enforce with - and create your rules to match your enforcement resources.) I can think of several log queries that might be useful to automate some bits of enforcement (just as an example). But the rules as they are written are convoluted, vague, and overly-complicated – and absolutely meaningless without enforcement (and clarification, when requested).

2. Us tattling on each other is a pretty bad way to enforce your rules.
(Fraps or it didn't happen is bankrupt. And even the NFL doesn't get multi-angled replay right all the time – and they film every play (encounter).)

3. If you're going to rely on self-regulation as a cornerstone (or even an element) of your ruleset, get rid of those (individuals and guilds) who perpetually cannot self-regulate – instead of rewarding them.

4. Provide a way for questions to be answered quickly re rule interpretation. Then codify, in public, that interpretation (i.e. modify the ruleset).

Staffing an all-volunteer enterprise is tough. I get that. But if you cannot staff enforcement – or can only staff it minimally – either simplify the Raid Rules and automate enforcement (as much as you can), or just get rid of Raid Rules and call it DPS > all -- FFA CSR-free. That would at least level the playing field.

I don’t care what the rules are. Or even if there are none. Your box. Your call. I can choose to log in or not. What I do care about is that if you post rules – and expect me and my guild to live by them – that you hold everyone on the box to the same standard. Whatever that standard is. If you don’t have the resources to do that, make the standards match the resources – and then apply the standards consistently. If you have no resources, abandon the standards and say it out loud.

As it is, those who are loose with the standards – without consequence – will be (in the main) better rewarded than those who comply with the standards on their own accord. That’s not “competition”. That’s a server that will only retain those raiders who are willing to juice to win. I don’t think that’s what you have in mind for the project.

Note to preempt stupid responses from other players: I did NOT say that those who win here always cheat – tho there’s a long history of that. I did say that if you WANT to win here, cheat or up your cheating game and do it better than your competition – and do it with impunity in the current climate.

In other words, if you’re not ignoring the rules now, someone who will is gonna beat you soon.

[hobart]

What language do you want it in? If you can't read and understand that, you're really stupid.

[Nexii]

Most guilds aren't cheating or playing loose with the rules, so it's sort of a weak/salty argument.

I'd argue for raid changes based more on:
1) Ease of GM enforcement
2) What the player base decides is 'fun/fair'

#2 is always the tough one. Getting all (or nearly all) guilds to agree on some kind of simplified rule set that is. Historically there was always one guild against these sorts of positive changes. Which IMO the staff should have ignored, you can't please everyone.

Anyways, IMO the server would be more fun if the rules were as simple as:
1) Rooted raid mobs, or a rule to fight targets only where they spawn. The current SB Idol meta is ridiculous and creates an environment where guilds are centered around a few key play makers rather than a full guild effort. Plus it creates unintentional training.
2) No training other guilds.
3) FTE determines kill, as it is now.

That's all. Get rid of the 2 tracker rule and everything else. I highly doubt any live server had enforced rules about camping near raid targets.

[JayDee]

I found out real fast that most Omni members care a lot about loot. They just don't want to put the work in, which actually makes them worse people in my book.

Their little fingers dance across the keyboard like bojangles while their feet remain stationary.

[Elerial]

Oh yeah, let dps decidex si Aftermath can log on 200 chars they have in their zerg guild to win encounters they are prevented from with current rules mecjanics.

[Fammaden]

What language do you want it in? If you can't read and understand that, you're really stupid.

And its not even a "wall of text". Nicely spaced out paragraphs and bullet points. Sorry you fail at literacy?

[Fammaden]

Anyways, IMO the server would be more fun if the rules were as simple as:
1) Rooted raid mobs, or a rule to fight targets only where they spawn. The current SB Idol meta is ridiculous and creates an environment where guilds are centered around a few key play makers rather than a full guild effort. Plus it creates unintentional training.
2) No training other guilds.
3) FTE determines kill, as it is now.

That's all. Get rid of the 2 tracker rule and everything else. I highly doubt any live server had enforced rules about camping near raid targets.

No, no classic server had any of this. For as much as some people like to screech about "not classic" when someone brings up rooting mobs there's nothing less classic than FTE messages and all the rules surrounding them.

I understand the how and why of getting to this point on the server. And back in classic there was round the clock volunteer guide service and each server had a paid GM. Those dudes were known to show up to a raid mob when people were being crybabies and make two guilds /ran 100 for the kill or outright despawn the damn thing on them.

I know things are different with time locked, being in Kunark for the better part of a decade, armies of geared 60 alts. But given the lack of available staff enforcement, it does seem like letting the raiding community figure shit out on their own more is possibly worth a try. Especially if, as this post suggests, they've kinda been doing it for a while now anyway.

[icedwards]

I literally haven't seen Omni at any raid encounter in months. Filing this one under mad about no longer getting Vulak loot from Azure Guard's hard work.

[Legidias]

Make rules way more harsh and its easy.

If you wipe a raid and your guild is banned for 2 months right away, people police themselves.

[Alesclandre]

I literally haven't seen Omni at any raid encounter in months. Filing this one under mad about no longer getting Vulak loot from Azure Guard's hard work.

I didn't see Core raid for years myself, i suspect they even never did.

[kotton05]

Can’t translate to retard for you sorry you can’t read

[Sunstar]

I literally haven't seen Omni at any raid encounter in months. Filing this one under mad about no longer getting Vulak loot from Azure Guard's hard work.

Except for this week, when we (CSG+PS) teamed up with you (Core) for AoW... but yeah not in months

[branamil]

Omni wants premium loots when they bring like 6 people to a raid. Filed under: we want all the reward with no effort

[Ripqozko]

Grats 8 Omni on CT brain.

[Jimjam]

Omni wants premium loots when they bring like 6 people to a raid. Filed under: we want all the reward with no effort

Dps/XP group gets to decide loot rights?

[pogs4ever]

get rid of pet tracking

[Pint]

get rid of pet tracking

Fully automated afk tracking not classic? Scandalous!

[Daloon]

What rules do you need clarified?

Most of the top guilds have gotten together and are deciding what is right/wrong, and its going pretty well all things considered.

Making a thread in Raid Discussion is cringe

[Jonabis]

See what happens when a bunch of kittens go off the rails and gets a fear Golem they were DQ'd on? People going crazy!

[FatherSioux]

Omni is asking for clear rules, a simplified ruleset would be easier.

They are suggesting staff create a way to manage the conflicts based around their resources. Reasonable.

They are suggesting a FFA DPS CSR Free style if that's what works best. Reasonable and not in their interest, I wouldn't think.

But here we are and the morons here think they are suggesting some Bernie Sanders approach. Learn to read and think for yourself OP, don't trust anyone around here.

[Alesclandre]

Omni is asking for clear rules, a simplified ruleset would be easier.

They are suggesting staff create a way to manage the conflicts based around their resources. Reasonable.

They are suggesting a FFA DPS CSR Free style if that's what works best. Reasonable and not in their interest, I wouldn't think.

But here we are and the morons here think they are suggesting some Bernie Sanders approach. Learn to read and think for yourself OP, don't trust anyone around here.

Amen

[loramin]

I love how every "it's fine, I don't see a problem" post comes from Aftermath. Like :eek: the people benefiting most from the current system think it's fine!

C'mon P99 team, make this a server for everyone again: bring back rotations!

(In b4 "rotations are handouts for less hard working people than us: sharing with othersis un-democratic/un-American/un-capitalist/not classic/the work of the devil!")

[bthomsen0312]

I love how every "it's fine, I don't see a problem" post comes from Aftermath. Like :eek: the people benefiting most from the current system think it's fine!

C'mon P99 team, make this a server for everyone again: bring back rotations!

(In b4 "rotations are handouts for less hard working people than us: sharing with othersis un-democratic/un-American/un-capitalist/not classic/the work of the devil!")

hey

theres a thing called live that has instanced raids where you can get your pixels with little effort.

[loramin]

hey

theres a thing called live that has instanced raids where you can get your pixels with little effort.

hey

When you ignore the reality of an argument and instead rely on a false one (eg. by pretending support for rotations equates to wanting instances) you're being dishonest with whatever you're trying to advocate for.

Presumably, if you hard an honest argument you would have used that instead, but you didn't have one. Which makes sense, because rotations are not instances, they're 100% classic EverQuest, and they would in fact be better for the server as a whole ... but worse for the people benefiting most from the current system.

[Erati]

Why do we have Raid Discussion forums still anyway? It was birthed way back in 2014!

Majority of leader/officers in current raiding cannot post there.

New simpler rules probably are needed if current ones cannot be applied evenly however crafting those new rules is quite a challenge as nerds do not agree on even the color of the sky.

Hope this helps, happy Friday!

[Prostatus]

hey

When you ignore the reality of an argument and instead rely on a false one (eg. by pretending support for rotations equates to wanting instances) you're being dishonest with whatever you're trying to advocate for.

Presumably, if you hard an honest argument you would have used that instead, but you didn't have one. Which makes sense, because rotations are not instances, they're 100% classic EverQuest, and they would in fact be better for the server as a whole ... but worse for the people benefiting most from the current system.

This guy still mad that ToV rotation got pulled.

Sad

[bthomsen0312]

hey

When you ignore the reality of an argument and instead rely on a false one (eg. by pretending support for rotations equates to wanting instances) you're being dishonest with whatever you're trying to advocate for.

Presumably, if you hard an honest argument you would have used that instead, but you didn't have one. Which makes sense, because rotations are not instances, they're 100% classic EverQuest, and they would in fact be better for the server as a whole ... but worse for the people benefiting most from the current system.

A. Classic was not rotated very often in my experience on brell, they were DPS races which are even more favorable for the zergs (which I am not a part of)

B. The point is that instanced mobs provide no contest mobs that are equivalent to rotations on a shorter time scale (your rotation would come up once a week instead of one a quarter)

Furthermore, you need to understand that the server has a limited GM pool to deal with server disputes. The rules need to be simplistic that require minimal intervention as these are unpaid volunteers.

The easiest thing for them would be to go back to DPS races without the engage messages necessitating "winning" the mob. You should be very happy this is not the state of raiding.

[Legidias]

Everyone play "Lets spot the AM posters". Don't worry, its on tutorial difficulty.

[rezzie]

Ever since Tempest fizzled out the toxicity and lawyer-questing has mostly evaporated from the high-end raid scene.

Sure there are still disputes/disagreements, but incidents have been resolved between guilds amicably and, despite much reduced CSR involvement, it's not a total shitfest in ToV.

I understand that's possibly hard to grasp for people who only scour the forums and haven't logged in/raided in the last 3 years.

[enjchanter]

hey

When you ignore the reality of an argument and instead rely on a false one (eg. by pretending support for rotations equates to wanting instances) you're being dishonest with whatever you're trying to advocate for.

Presumably, if you hard an honest argument you would have used that instead, but you didn't have one. Which makes sense, because rotations are not instances, they're 100% classic EverQuest, and they would in fact be better for the server as a whole ... but worse for the people benefiting most from the current system.

Normally I dont make real arguements in RNF but I'd like to just shine alittle light.

Some people enjoy the competition , I think most dont but what a competitive raid scene allows for is one thing which is the real reason why I think most people dont rotations (including myself tbh).

Now that sounds bad and selfish whatever right ? Well when I think about rotations what comes to mind is that now it's basically just a dice roll on who is gunna get the elite shiny loot from ToV. For instance, maybe Guild A gets a hobarts and ranger sword , but then a couple months later Guild F gets Vulaks Robe, Koi tridents , cloak of thorns whatever. Good loot from x dragons. When there is no longer any hands to be played in who gets the loot, it kinda just devolves into a scenario where theres nothing to progress for and theres not much satisfaction to be gained.

Sure exclusivness isnt a great premise to base your fun off of but let's be honest, if you're in a high end raiding guild / ToV raiding guild, you signed up for pixels. Yeah you meet some cool people but I would wager you dont want to sit in tov for 16 hrs if you take the gamble of getting loot away.

I've raided on this server for a long time now and despite at being a high contributing member in both of my 2 previous guilds, I have never and still to this day do not enjoy the nonsense that goes on in tov and the raid scene in general. But you know what, it's the only way to progress my character and progressing my character is what I find satisfying about this game.

So the idea of rotations is stupid to me because then, why do I care about playing a game where I can afk for 6 months and just show up when it's my turn to open the chest ?

Sort of a bored work downtime rambling but I feel like people avoid this reality or maybe I'm simply alone in this opinion. Who knows, doesnt really matter, tis a game

[Legday]

Most AM posters have it in their sig because why keep your Lambo in the garage where nobody can see it?

[enjchanter]

Exclusiveness, I left that word out in the 2nd paragraph

[Moerne]

A. Classic was not rotated very often in my experience on brell, they were DPS races which are even more favorable for the zergs (which I am not a part of)



Same on Lanys T'Vyll. We had a very active, and very well used calendar system, but it was only for the raid mobs that weren't at the top end (old world planes, non-VP Kunark mobs, etc.)

Here is a month of that calendar, courtesy of the wayback machine, Circa Feb 2001. Note there are no mobs on it higher than maybe Innoruuk. (It's also just kind of a cool piece of history!)

[Moerne]

Helps if I include the link:

https://web.archive.org/web/20010203171200/http://www.calsnet.com/lanyscalendar

[Maschenny]

Normally I don't make real arguments in RNF but I'd like to just shine a little light.

So the idea of rotations is stupid to me because then, why do I care about playing a game where I can afk for 6 months and just show up when it's my turn to open the chest?

Exactly this

[zati]

skimmed thru it real quick

cliffs of wall of text: I didn't get loot.. GM's do yer jerb better... so I can get loot.


only thing spot on : I don’t care what the rules are. Or even if there are none. Your box. Your call. I can choose to log in or not.

[loramin]

Normally I dont make real arguements in RNF but I'd like to just shine alittle light.

Some people enjoy the competition , I think most dont but what a competitive raid scene allows for is one thing which is the real reason why I think most people dont rotations (including myself tbh).

Now that sounds bad and selfish whatever right ? Well when I think about rotations what comes to mind is that now it's basically just a dice roll on who is gunna get the elite shiny loot from ToV. For instance, maybe Guild A gets a hobarts and ranger sword , but then a couple months later Guild F gets Vulaks Robe, Koi tridents , cloak of thorns whatever. Good loot from x dragons. When there is no longer any hands to be played in who gets the loot, it kinda just devolves into a scenario where theres nothing to progress for and theres not much satisfaction to be gained.

Sure exclusivness isnt a great premise to base your fun off of but let's be honest, if you're in a high end raiding guild / ToV raiding guild, you signed up for pixels. Yeah you meet some cool people but I would wager you dont want to sit in tov for 16 hrs if you take the gamble of getting loot away.

I've raided on this server for a long time now and despite at being a high contributing member in both of my 2 previous guilds, I have never and still to this day do not enjoy the nonsense that goes on in tov and the raid scene in general. But you know what, it's the only way to progress my character and progressing my character is what I find satisfying about this game.

So the idea of rotations is stupid to me because then, why do I care about playing a game where I can afk for 6 months and just show up when it's my turn to open the chest ?

Sort of a bored work downtime rambling but I feel like people avoid this reality or maybe I'm simply alone in this opinion. Who knows, doesnt really matter, tis a game

So basically, things suck but let's just accept that they can never be any better? I don't agree.

And specifically this part is an incredibly dishonest argument:
Well when I think about rotations what comes to mind is that now it's basically just a dice roll on who is gunna get the elite shiny loot from ToV.

Rotations are not hand outs unless you believe that whole "playing the game of EverQuest" part of things (you know, the gathering a group of people, organizing them into a raid force, coming up with tactics and implementing them to actually kill dragons) is superfluous. And if you do truly believe that then literally everything in the game is a "hand out".

Rotations have NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING to do with hand outs. What they do is give a much bigger percentage of the server access to raid targets they would not otherwise have. And yes, that means the targets have to come from somewhere, and that would mean less for the top guild.

Let's have a debate about that, about whether P99 is better off with lots of people getting to experience lots of content, or whether it's better to have "competition" which keeps all that content in a much smaller percentage of the players hands. Let's have that honest debate, instead of falsely equating rotations to hand outs.

[Champion_Standing]

Translation: Please instance raid zones

[ZiggyTheMuss]

jfc nerds

[Tupakk]

Staff is doing their job of letting it be FFA. If its not obvious to the 8 Omni then I dont think they will ever get it.

Literally been 0 threads of TOV issues since staff removed themselves from the Equation.

Welcome to the new 2019 Raid Scene Omni, you have to work for your pixels, GFL

[loramin]

Translation: Please instance raid zones

Argue that FTE messages (not classic at all) and the P99 style of competition (which again, is nothing like classic EQ) is better, if you truly believe that. Argue that the absolute most dedicated players on the server should be the only ones to ever get to see certain content, if you truly believe that.

But make such an argument honestly if you're going to, don't do it with cheap shots and false equivalencies.

[Nexii]

Rotations solve nothing. Anyone with a brain will stick a different alt in every guild to get around it. Cause really who wants to wait months to play EQ

[Cecily]

Have you ever considered that this game isn't real?

[loramin]

Rotations solve nothing. Anyone with a brain will stick a different alt in every guild to get around it. Cause really who wants to wait months to play EQ

And? Massively higher percentages of players would get to experience content, so who cares if the people who play more join more guilds and raid more? Honestly that'd probably be a good thing, as they'd bring knowledge about high end encounters to smaller guilds and help them succeed at raid encounters.

Nothing about that would deny the people who aren't as "hardcore" from getting to experience more of the game. And last I checked that was the entire point of this project: letting (as many people as possible) experience classic EQ. Not just letting people experience classic EQ groups and soloing.

[Danth]

Have you ever considered that this game isn't real?

Maybe it isn't, but the pixel sickness sure is.

Danth

[ErlickBachman]

Most AM posters have it in their sig because why keep your Lambo in the garage where nobody can see it?

What you think your guild tag represents:
10743

What your guild tag actually represents:
10742

[Cecily]

Oh I wanna ride on top!

[Tupakk]

Oh I wanna ride on top!

you like being on top dont you!!

[Cecily]

you like being on top dont you!!


Yeah! You can look out the windows and wave to people.

[branamil]

Cecily is a power bottom.

[Nexii]

And? Massively higher percentages of players would get to experience content, so who cares if the people who play more join more guilds and raid more? Honestly that'd probably be a good thing, as they'd bring knowledge about high end encounters to smaller guilds and help them succeed at raid encounters.

Nothing about that would deny the people who aren't as "hardcore" from getting to experience more of the game. And last I checked that was the entire point of this project: letting (as many people as possible) experience classic EQ. Not just letting people experience classic EQ groups and soloing.

Joining AM, AG, or Core doesn't require hardcore play hours. If you aren't seeing endgame content it's your own fault.

[Champion_Standing]

Argue that FTE messages (not classic at all) and the P99 style of competition (which again, is nothing like classic EQ) is better, if you truly believe that. Argue that the absolute most dedicated players on the server should be the only ones to ever get to see certain content, if you truly believe that.

But make such an argument honestly if you're going to, don't do it with cheap shots and false equivalencies.

It's not a cheap shot, instancing raid zones would solve all the current issues and let staff deal with real problems on the server like the boxers, RMTers and all the people cybering in Kelethin. If you want to eliminate all possibility of GM intervention and raid rule fiascos then this is the best option. Who cares if 10x as much ToV loot exists on the server than "should" exist? It's gonna sit in Velious for eternity anyway. The only two options that would have any meaningful impact are to instance raid zones or just stop CSR in them. Personally I don't think the scene is that problematic as it is, but if the server wants significant change that's the only way to do it.

[branamil]

Not sure if you've noticed from the patch history but there isn't an army of C coders waiting to program for p99 for free. Requesting a feature that this old game wasn't designed to handle (instances) is out of the question.

[enjchanter]

I mean I guess it kinda boils down to there being just different perspectives of how this game should be played.

I personally find enjoyment from progressing my characters and yes, I do gain some satisfaction knowing that I have an essence of nature and not every other enchanter has one. I gain a sense of satisfaction from having achieved such a nice item.

Now if the situation was that we did rotations, yes giving everyone a fair chance and lowering barrier to entry, I (personally) would suddenly have much less interest in the game because I've experienced the content forever, I'm familiar with all the fights so when it comes to raid content, I'm just trying to secure some loot that (ideally) is special enough that there is some barrier to getting such an item.

I'm not really equating rotations to hand outs but rotations makes it a game of waiting rather than being engaging and worth spending time on. I get that you still have to actually kill the dragons and for some guilds maybe this is challenging and exciting and good for them.

But ultimately I guess your right, rotations means tov nonsense is done, we can all just take turns killing dragons and hope the stuff you want falls on your turn

/shrug.

[loramin]

Joining AM, AG, or Core doesn't require hardcore play hours. If you aren't seeing endgame content it's your own fault.

Blame the victim, another dishonest debate tactic.

Look, however many hours of EverQuest you play is not a virtue signal. If you join a "hardcore" guild (AM/AG/Core) that doesn't inherently entitle you to see Yelinak and someone else not to. So when you try to make it the fault of everyone who's not in a top-end guild, because of your assumption that those people "deserve" the content more than others, and then use that assumption to justify blaming other people for just wanting to play the game ... you're still not arguing honestly.

If this is what you believe then be honest and argue for it! Say:

I believe that it's fair and in the best interest of everyone on the server that the members of Core, AM, and AG are the only ones who will ever get to see Yelinak

If you truly feel that way, while I would disagree, I would respect you for honestly stating your position.

But don't blame other people for playing less than you do or playing in a different guild and wanting to see dragons, as if they're somehow inherently undeserving and that's an obvious fact.

[Champion_Standing]

Not sure if you've noticed from the patch history but there isn't an army of C coders waiting to program for p99 for free. Requesting a feature that this old game wasn't designed to handle (instances) is out of the question.

Well lucky for them the EQemu people figured it out about 10 years ago. Instancing is definitely possible on this server.

[Jimjam]

Not sure if you've noticed from the patch history but there isn't an army of C coders waiting to program for p99 for free. Requesting a feature that this old game wasn't designed to handle (instances) is out of the question.

Loot rights going to the dps/xp group is already hard coded... if it is a dps race by guild/alliance... well then that would be problematic.

[Ella`Ella]

"It's 2019 and I still can't get Vulak loot. Please make more rules/less rules/enforce rules/ban competition so I can win EQ"

[Wonkie]

joining multiple guilds carries the implied threat of colluding with other high effort players to corrupt the loot process to benefit themselves. its like the magnetic nature of capital.

and that's OK.

[Dillusional]

Anyways, IMO the server would be more fun if the rules were as simple as:
1) Rooted raid mobs, or a rule to fight targets only where they spawn. The current SB Idol meta is ridiculous and creates an environment where guilds are centered around a few key play makers rather than a full guild effort. Plus it creates unintentional training.
2) No training other guilds.
3) FTE determines kill, as it is now.



Perma rooting the mobs opens up all kinds of questions about stalling. (see yelinak) I'm not advocating this but if you're going to perma root a mob, make sure it starts summoning players when it's at 100% health rather than 97%.

[Rizzle]

Loramin - I feel like you keep are the one that keeps deflecting everyone else's responses. It just sounds like your asking that your intramural football team have the right to play in the NFL because everyone should get to experience what it's like, even though your team hasn't put in the time/effort to recruit/learn and compete at that level.

Why is it such a problem for people to join AM/AG/Core to get to see the content they want to? If you want to stay in a smaller guild that doesn't compete, that's fine, but don't beg for rotations because you aren't large enough/have the desire to put in the effort to compete with everyone else. Instancing would solve this issue, but we aren't on a server that has instanced raiding.

[Oleris]

Not all guilds are equal. I never complained when TMO was kicking Asgard's ass on FFA mobs. I knew that TMO had more hardcore players, were more skilled and put in more hours to be prepared. I was in a "filthy casual" guild and knew that if I wanted more raid loot that I would have to join TMO.

Through the merger I ended up in Aftermath and I couldn't be happier. I can understand though how it can be hard to leave a guild and community of people. I was tempted to leave Asgard for greener pastures, but I didn't want to leave the guild that I started with.

If some of these more casual guilds want top tier dragon loot, then their guild culture would need to change either through leadership, recruitment or merging. Forcing an "every guilds equal" rotation would be unjust to those guilds that have recruited for the current end game raid scene.

[Erati]

Lora your “rotations are classic” argument really fizzles out on P99 style of locked server where new content either wont come (Velious locked) or slow to develope (not many Devs patching).

Rotations classically worked on a few servers bc typically it was not current content being rotated. On Bristlebane for example Nagafen/Vox had signup calendars and slots were rolled each month but that was in Kunark/Velious. I doubt any servers rotated current content w the public, maybe a couple did but it certainly was not the “norm” if it existed at all.

So what you are asking for basically never happened in classic, namely any guild given a free chance to experience what current content they wanted without having to make a bargain w the guilds that actively clear the content.

Thats why so many people will argue your viewpoint, it’s just not that realistic for a locked Velious server without literally requiring heavy GM moderation (creating an official P99 server rotation)

[loramin]

Well lucky for them the EQemu people figured it out about 10 years ago. Instancing is definitely possible on this server.

We all know that technical limitations aren't the issue: Rogean and Nilbog will never implement instancing on P99. So again, let's be honest: if you're bringing up instancing you're not seriously proposing it as an option, you're using it to falsely equate it to a viewpoint you disagree with.

All I'm trying to do is have an honest debate here. That means admitting that a lot of our raid circumstances are unavoidable. P99 has higher population than many in-era live servers, a higher concentration of people with the desire/resources to play EQ as a full time job, and most importantly (due to its long lifespan) it has an incredibly unclassic skew towards higher-end characters.

That's the reality we all have to face, so then the question simply becomes, in that environment, what's best for everyone? It's just utilitarianism.

P99 tried having a monopoly guild (TMO) for a long time. No one but TMO liked that. P99 tried having it's current "competition" system (several variations of it in fact), and as we are all aware that amounts to only a few guilds dominating (which is still way more people getting to experience content than under the TMO system). But we've only ever once, and only briefly, tried any kind of structured raiding (the whole class C/R thing), and never a true rotation.

Maybe rotations are the best system for P99, maybe they aren't. All I'm asking is that people honestly defend their views one way or another. Say "____ is the best system for our current top-heavy P99 server" (whose explicit goal is to make classic EQ available for everyone) and make honest arguments to that effect.

Argue that:


a single guild monopolizing all top content and preventing anyone else from enjoying it is what's best for the server
a few top-end guilds made up of the absolute most dedicated players monopolizing all top content is what's best for the server
top content rotated among all guilds capable of killing that content is what's best for the server
some other system is what's best for the server


But just, do it honestly. Is "scoring forum points" really that much more important than just making honest arguments about what you feel is best for everyone on this server?

[Nexii]

Perma rooting the mobs opens up all kinds of questions about stalling. (see yelinak) I'm not advocating this but if you're going to perma root a mob, make sure it starts summoning players when it's at 100% health rather than 97%.

Yea this is why there was the player agreement to put a mob to 97% within one minute of engaging. I suppose there'd have to be that unless 100% summoning was also made a thing.

[jpetrick]

It’s 96% for summoning you noobs.

[Nexii]

Not to mention bosses that CH/gate. Which I think may be some of the reason the root the dragons thing hasn't been a thing yet. There's other implications. So realistically a player rule around it barring a lot of code changes..

[jpetrick]

Hey Loramin, Everquest has always been a game where those who are more casual don’t get to experience all the content. That’s as classic as it can get. Now stop writing ignorant essays please, we’re tired of them.

[Erati]

Live EQ servers had 2000-2500 people on them during heydays of classic, at least the middle pop / high pop ones did.

P99 while has a higher concentration of lvl 60 characters for Velious than live did still is less crowded than actual real servers. Think back, exp groups were happy to “camp” 3 spawn rooms all night as their exp grind. Zones were picked clean everywhere in era.

[loramin]

On Bristlebane for example Nagafen/Vox had signup calendars and slots were rolled each month but that was in Kunark/Velious. I doubt any servers rotated current content w the public, maybe a couple did but it certainly was not the “norm” if it existed at all.

Oh I know: I signed up on that calendar and led one of those raids against Vox with my chumpy family/low-tier raid guild, along with a lot of random people (Lord Bob style) :D It was one of my favorite memories of live EQ in fact.

And that's exactly it. I'm not asking for Sleeper's Tomb to be rotated here. We're talking about rotating zones like ToV. Vox had barely even existed on Bristlebane half as long as Yelinak has on Project 1999 before the GMs on Bristlebane started rotating it. By that measure, ToV is overdue for rotation! ;)

But really, now that people are finally starting to make honest arguments (and thank you to everyone doing so, even if I disagree with your stance) we can finally start actually honestly debating the issue. And if we're doing that, the question is simple: what system is in the best interest of the most people on P99? Is it better to let the most dedicated players monopolize certain content, or is it better to forcibly open up (as was done on live servers) that content to let other players experience it?

You can argue how unfair it is to the hardcore players that they should get less chances at loot per week. That's an honest argument, which relies on the core principle that what's most important here is the most dedicated players getting the most chances at loot.

I'm arguing a different principle: that the server would be more fun for everyone overall, and a better representation of classic EQ, if rotations were implemented.

[Erati]

Pretty sure it wasnt a GM Naggy Vox rotation but rather someone who was willing to maintain a website calendar and most guilds were fine w this bc it was Naggy and Vox...

Its rare to find more extensive raid mob rotation, Im sure a few existed but certainly not the norm.

[loramin]

P.S. Here's my one live screenshot of Vox from that raid (I was too busy coordinating everything to see much more of her):

https://i.imgur.com/6AmkA6W.png

[Erati]

also Lora you too were on Bristlebane?

Shout out to BB homies!

[Wonkie]

Live EQ servers had 2000-2500 people on them during heydays of classic, at least the middle pop / high pop ones did.

P99 while has a higher concentration of lvl 60 characters for Velious than live did still is less crowded than actual real servers. Think back, exp groups were happy to “camp” 3 spawn rooms all night as their exp grind. Zones were picked clean everywhere in era.

how does the raiding population compare to live in numbers and frequency? exp groups aren't an honest argument

[Fifield]

Obviously didn't need anyone to translate this thread. Its called a conversation starter, few of you too slow to realize that.

I don't really care about Omni's opinions on the raid scene(no offence), where have they been in the last year? Can't even remember the last time I had to /who omni to see them.

Step up your guilds recruitment, step up your guilds game like AG did. Hell even PS kicks some ass like a few trakanon's ago. They dominated. Instead of wanting whatever the fuck it is you want, come join the fun this server has to offer or go to a TLP. You'll have fun on a TLP for a long time probably, but you'll be back, why? cause this is the only server out there that doesn't rotate.

For all we know rotations could come tomorrow, enjoy it!

[loramin]

also Lora you too were on Bristlebane?

Shout out to BB homies!

Woot BB!

I was in Kariath Arba (the family/low-tier raid guild I mentioned). But I was friends IRL with like half of Club Fu (I knew Dome, Engel, Meriadoc, etc. from the cyber cafe we all played at) so I was lucky enough to get to see some high end stuff (plus I learned fun facts like "the reality of raiding in EQ is that you sit around doing nothing a lot" ;))

[enjchanter]

Okay loramin
Then my answer to your proposed to debate is that yes, if you are a casual and do not put forth the effort to compete and actually *try* to experience the content, then you do not afford the right to see it.
If you just wanna see the dragons family-trip-to-the-zoo style, then just go on the live servers and walk around.

Build up your guild and go for it. Until then, too bad so sad, the hardcore guilds are set up and hungry for the top end content and will do what it takes to kill some dragons.

[Erati]

how does the raiding population compare to live in numbers and frequency? exp groups aren't an honest argument

P99 way top heavier as I mentioned more 60 per capita in era than on live but when people try to act like P99 has more players than live servers its just false.

Raiding is completely different when you have expansions every 6 month-1year which shifts population to new zones and forces guilds to devote resources to new progression. P99 will forever bc a cluster of raiders at the top compared to live because of this.

[Ripqozko]

Woot BB!

I was in Kariath Arba (the family/low-tier raid guild I mentioned). But I was friends IRL with like half of Club Fu (I knew Dome, Engel, Meriadoc, etc. from the cyber cafe we all played at) so I was lucky enough to get to see some high end stuff (plus I learned fun facts like "the reality of raiding in EQ is that you sit around doing nothing a lot" ;))

You ok with a rotation only of those guilds currently trying? Ie:core/am/Ag? You get a rotation just not with anon

[loramin]

Okay loramin
Then my answer to your proposed to debate is that yes, if you are a casual and do not put forth the effort to compete and actually *try* to experience the content, then you do not afford the right to see it.
If you just wanna see the dragons family-trip-to-the-zoo style, then just go on the live servers and walk around.

Build up your guild and go for it. Until then, too bad so sad, the hardcore guilds are set up and hungry for the top end content and will do what it takes to kill some dragons.

Awesome, we're talking to each other and not past!

And with that, here's where I see us (honestly) disagreeing: I don't just see two categories of guilds:


guilds capable of taking on top content
guilds that aren't


I see three:


guilds capable of taking on top content and motivated enough to "compete" for it
guilds capable of taking on top content but not motivated enough to "compete" for it
guilds that aren't capable


I'm not talking about letting old school "Knights Who Say Ni" successor Kittens get a shot at ToV: I'm talking about letting the modern raid-capable Kittens have a shot. I'm talking about letting even smaller guilds (like my own, Anonymous) form alliances with other guilds (like the AEGIS alliance), which are absolutely capable of doing ToV.

But, as important as it is to ground these discussions in reality, I also don't want to get bogged down too much in individual guilds, because that's not what this is about. If Anonymous grows enough and decides to "compete", or if we die off as a guild entirely, either way my position will remain the same: that letting as many people as possible (which, again, does not mean Kittens when they were a family guild) have a shot at content is better for the server.

[Wonkie]

when people try to act like P99 has more players than live servers its just false.



who said that

[loramin]

You ok with a rotation only of those guilds currently trying? Ie:core/am/Ag? You get a rotation just not with anon

I think my last post just answered this, but to clarify: a lot of the current system's defenders try and frame it as "top guilds vs. everyone else", which is it is in a sense. But I'm not seeing it that black and white: I see a lot of gray guilds that are capable of the EverQuest part: organizing a large group of people with proper tactics to kill dragons ... but aren't able or willing to "compete" with the made up "current P99 raid scene idea of competition" part, which again has little to do with classic EQ.

[Ripqozko]

I think my last post just answered this, but to clarify: a lot of the current system's defenders try and frame it as "top guilds vs. everyone else", which is it is in a sense. But I'm not seeing it that black and white: I see a lot of gray guilds that are capable of the EverQuest part: organizing a large group of people with proper tactics to kill dragons ... but aren't able or willing to "compete" with the made up "current P99 raid scene idea of competition" part, which again has little to do with classic EQ.

So you just want to get Aoc freebie dragons

[Mikebro]

https://i.imgur.com/ZfIMmTN.jpg

[loramin]

If you can't make an honest defense of your beliefs, I guess all you have left is dishonest cheap shots.

[Erati]

who said that

Trolls gotta troll I guess

That means admitting that a lot of our raid circumstances are unavoidable. P99 has higher population than many in-era live servers

[Ripqozko]

I'd venture to say most guilds trying are happy, maybe a few rules ironed out. It'd be more legit if you said you wanted rotations for Anon to get mobs intead of "for better of server" which ya wouldn't know about.

[Wonkie]

Trolls gotta troll I guess

its a thread about raiding do you know what context is

[Nirgon]

Competitive non pvp is still the stupidest shit ever in an EQ setting

[loramin]

I did say that, but I didn't say all live servers had lower population, I said "many" did. Based on the screenshots I've seen of live servers back when population numbers were published (and from the closer-to-Luclin end) that seemed to be true, but I won't swear I'm an expert on live population numbers or anything.

Regardless, if you kept the rest of that sentence you'd see that I also listed two other factors, one of which (the high density of top-level characters) I indicated was far more significant. So please don't get lost in the weeds: we all know that P99's population is uniquely top-heavy relative to live, that that impacts our raid scene, and that we have to be honest about it if we want the best raid scene possible.

But really, if the worst thing about the argument I made was that one minor supporting point was off, that says great things about my argument overall :D

[Maschenny]

I'm not talking about letting old school "Knights Who Say Ni" successor Kittens get a shot at ToV: I'm talking about letting the modern raid-capable Kittens have a shot. I'm talking about letting even smaller guilds (like my own, Anonymous) form alliances with other guilds (like the AEGIS alliance), which are absolutely capable of doing ToV.


Loramin, what is preventing smaller guilds from taking a shot at ToV? I don't understand.

[Wonkie]

I did say that, but I didn't say all live servers had lower population, I said "many" did. Based on the screenshots I've seen of live servers back when population numbers were published (and from the closer-to-Luclin end) that seemed to be true, but I won't swear I'm an expert on live population numbers or anything.

Regardless, if you kept the rest of that sentence you'd see that I also listed two other factors, one of which (the high density of top-level characters) I indicated was far more significant. So please don't get lost in the weeds: we all know that P99's population is uniquely top-heavy relative to live, that that impacts our raid scene, and that we have to be honest about it if we want the best raid scene possible.

But really, if the worst thing about the argument I made was that one minor supporting point was off, that says great things about my argument overall :D

*wearing Erati mask*: you're

[loramin]

I'd venture to say most guilds trying are happy, maybe a few rules ironed out. It'd be more legit if you said you wanted rotations for Anon to get mobs intead of "for better of server" which ya wouldn't know about.

No one knows what's best for the server off the top of their head, not even Rogean: we all have our own individual isolated vantage points. The entire point of having an open an honest public debate is to share those vantage points, and hopefully have the people with closer-to-accurate opinions share them with others who don't have as much visibility from where they sit.

And again, I'm not arguing as a member of Anonymous, I'm arguing as someone who has played here for half a decade, and before that played on live where I absolutely saw the benefit of content being shared (but again, not top content: even as Bristlebane allowed rotations on Vox and Naggy, Vex Thal was absolutely the domain of only the top guilds on the server). Even if I wasn't in a guild at all, or even if I was in Aftermath, I'd still rather play on a server where 40% have access to raid content rather than 10%.

So make some honest arguments: the current system where X% of the playerbase gets to see certain content and Y% which is capable of killing that content doesn't get to, is the absolute best system for Project 199 because ... go!

[Ripqozko]

Tov is top content you can rotate kunark I don't mind

[loramin]

Loramin, what is preventing smaller guilds from taking a shot at ToV? I don't understand.

The unclassic P99 competition system (vs. a rotation system). Once again, being willing to CoH-duck or do whatever stupid non-classic thing is necessary this month is different from being capable of assembling 50 of your friends and organizing them to kill a dragon.

[jpetrick]

On my server during classic there was competition. Is your classic experience is more valuable than mine?

[zati]

@ Loramin...I'm just a nobody but, here is my honest opinion.. isn't this server built around competition though? (no instancing) I feel like you're technically in a catch-22 here. You've stated GM's will never do that on this server.(Which is why you, and many ppl play here..?)

If they did implement instances... Some might stay, some might leave the server. Who knows. But, since we're here competition is what's left and keeps players going (high end content)

The majority of high end raiders are in AM(I seen 150 or more at a single raid)..that's like 3 guilds in 1... AG has been fielding 90 or so alone. If they were to split with proper classes divided n rotations were forced there'd be instantly 3-5 guilds instantly added to currently to the raid scene.. But wait.. we're just playing for "Content" ..Right? That'll be 6 month waiting-time for your guild to see that content. The population might diminish because of that. IDK.

If it ain't broke don't fix it is the only conclusion I can come up with. I see your points on making the server a place where "content is available to all guilds capable".. it's just the no-instances part that makes it almost impossible so you're cornered into Rotations is the solution. Then we're back at square 1

[Rizzle]

And again, I'm not arguing as a member of Anonymous, I'm arguing as someone who has played here for half a decade, and before that played on live where I absolutely saw the benefit of content being shared (but again, not top content: even as Bristlebane allowed rotations on Vox and Naggy, Vex Thal was absolutely the domain of only the top guilds on the server). !

If you had to pick raid mobs to rotate on p99 then what would it be if its not velious content? You keep mentioning rotating but haven't suggested targets on p99. Is it only Vox/Naggy for p99?

[loramin]

On my server during classic there was competition. Is your classic experience is more valuable than mine?

This isn't a "which is more classic" competition ... although it it was, I honestly think the argument is stronger for rotations being classic than the FTE messages and the rest of the P99 "competition" system (which never existed on any live servers, whereas rotations absolutely did on some).

I'm trying to have a simple debate/discussion, and I massively appreciate the people willing to have it. That discussion is simple:

"_________ is the best raid system for Project 1999 overall, because _______".

The only way classic-ness factors in is that A) Rogean/Nilbog will never implement any solution that's truly un-classic (eg. instances), and B) all else being equal this is a classic server and so a "more classic" solution is preferable ... but again there's nothing classic about the current competition on P99.

[loramin]

If you had to pick raid mobs to rotate on p99 then what would it be if its not velious content? You keep mentioning rotating but haven't suggested targets on p99. Is it only Vox/Naggy for p99?

I'm mainly referring to the rotation system that got proposed and taken down here recently, which was largely about ToV. But look if you have an argument that rotations are best for P99 in zones X and Y, but not Z, by all means make it!

[Maschenny]

The unclassic P99 competition system (vs. a rotation system). Once again, being willing to CoH-duck or do whatever stupid non-classic thing is necessary this month is different from being capable of assembling 50 of your friends and organizing them to kill a dragon.

My experience in classic was never get together with 50 of my friends and kill a dragon. It was more like the server's top guild didn't want a druid, so I didn't see any dragons. I've done so much more on P99 than I ever did on live and I'm grateful that it's not the same as classic. At least the top guilds on this server welcome literally everyone.

[Ripqozko]

I'm mainly referring to the rotation system that got proposed and taken down here recently, which was largely about ToV. But look if you have an argument that rotations are best for P99 in zones X and Y, but not Z, by all means make it!

Top content shouldn’t be rotated, you could rotate Kunark and get your freebie pixels and no one would care. Tov is top content

[jpetrick]

In your example the rotations were never for the top content yet you want ToV rotated (the current top content). You aren’t trying to have a debate, you are pushing your own agenda while claiming everyone else (most of them being people that point out the falacies of your arguments) are arguing in bad faith. You are the only one here arguing in bad faith. Shut the fuck up already you ignoramus.

[pogs4ever]

I think it’d cool for the server to do a divided up quake/spawn cycle like once a year. AA ban 2018 was pretty fun albeit tiring on the logistics.

Basically a GM Event

[loramin]

@ Loramin...I'm just a nobody but, here is my honest opinion.. isn't this server built around competition though?

Absolutely 100% not! Look in the upper right hand corner: reproducing classic EverQuest is what this server is built around! The unclassic "competition" is just the best solution the maintainers have found (thus far: they keep changing things over time). They want classic EQ, and based on what they've said they really would prefer not to have to deal with the raid scene at all.

Nobodies (your words ;)) are entitled to their opinion to. So as a nobody on this server, ask yourself: do you think you should have to join a guild where people use artificial mechanisms (eg. CoH ducking) to "compete" in ways that never were practiced on live servers, or do you think any guild capable of killing dragons should have a chance to? Which server would you prefer to play on?

[loramin]

In your example the rotations were never for the top content yet you want ToV rotated (the current top content). You aren’t trying to have a debate, you are pushing your own agenda while claiming everyone else (most of them being people that point out the falacies of your arguments) are arguing in bad faith. You are the only one here arguing in bad faith. Shut the fuck up already you ignoramus.

On the contrary there has been a mix of dishonest and honest arguments made in this thread (as is common for RnF). I'm going to keep calling out the dishonest ones as dishonest, and trying to engage with the honest ones, and I'll take my rustling of people like you as a sign I'm on the right track.

[pogs4ever]

I heard it’s pretty hard to get a DA idol anyways.

[bthomsen0312]

This isn't a "which is more classic" competition ... although it it was, I honestly think the argument is stronger for rotations being classic than the FTE messages and the rest of the P99 "competition" system (which never existed on any live servers, whereas rotations absolutely did on some).


There was not a single guild on live that was rotating current content.

zero
zilch
none
nada

P99 guilds also allow "bottom tier" classes to attend raids in large numbers which wouldn't have happened on live. If you were in a top end guild you were useful or you were cut.

Currently on "repop day" there are 3 guilds (and maybe more) that are going to be for sure functionally locked in and getting loot in TOV

Core
AM
AG

These guys COMPETE against each other which allows smaller guilds like PS and BG etc to steal some smaller fries (see CS dragon)

If I'm AM and I'm locked out of TOV for 4 weeks how do you think those smaller guilds like BG and PS are going to fair when AM is sitting around waiting for their "rotation". They won't have anything else to do other than kill smaller targets and they have the resources and toons to be parked everywhere if they don't need to worry about a vulak pop.

[loramin]

Top content shouldn’t be rotated, you could rotate Kunark and get your freebie pixels and no one would care. Tov is top content

WHY?

Please, stop just saying things as if they're self-evidently true: make an honest argument. I keep trying to help you:

I believe _____ is the best raid system overall for everyone on Project 1999 because _______

You can't leave the because part off (well, I mean, you can, but then you're not making an argument, you're just yelling things into space).

[Wonkie]

Top content shouldn’t be rotated, you could rotate Kunark and get your freebie pixels and no one would care. Tov is top content

let's compromise and rotate every mob that doesnt drop a bis item

[Kayso2]

Loramin, what is preventing smaller guilds from taking a shot at ToV? I don't understand.

I'll answer this one since the person you're asking the question of has no idea.

Nothing is preventing them from taking a shot. Your huge roster and AMs huge roster are just preventing them from having any realistic chance of sustained success.

The real question is, why would smaller guilds bother? Especially when they're competitive on other encounters where a huge force is not such a decisive advantage.

And before anyone gets all faux-fended and starts chirping, I'm not denying that both AG and AM have some of the best players on the box. They absolutely do. That's not what this is about.

[loramin]

If I'm AM and I'm locked out of TOV for 4 weeks how do you think those smaller guilds like BG and PS are going to fair when AM is sitting around waiting for their "rotation". They won't have anything else to do other than kill smaller targets and they have the resources and toons to be parked everywhere if they don't need to worry about a vulak pop.

I thought they were going to be joining other guilds so the can kill in ToV with their alts? Which is it?!? ;)

[jpetrick]

On the contrary there has been a mix of dishonest and honest arguments made in this thread (as is common for RnF). I'm going to keep calling out the dishonest ones as dishonest, and trying to engage with the honest ones, and I'll take my rustling of people like you as a sign I'm on the right track.

Yep completely leap over my point and go back onto your crusade. You’re a fucking moron.

[Baylan295]

There was not a single guild on live that was rotating current content.

zero
zilch
none
nada

P99 guilds also allow "bottom tier" classes to attend raids in large numbers which wouldn't have happened on live. If you were in a top end guild you were useful or you were cut.

Currently on "repop day" there are 3 guilds (and maybe more) that are going to be for sure functionally locked in and getting loot in TOV

Core
AM
AG

These guys COMPETE against each other which allows smaller guilds like PS and BG etc to steal some smaller fries (see CS dragon)

If I'm AM and I'm locked out of TOV for 4 weeks how do you think those smaller guilds like BG and PS are going to fair when AM is sitting around waiting for their "rotation". They won't have anything else to do other than kill smaller targets and they have the resources and toons to be parked everywhere if they don't need to worry about a vulak pop.

Please keep track of the 7 day mobs won by guilds other than those 3 this week and let me know how different it will be.

[loramin]

Well, I'm getting pooped from all the trolling, so to save my sanity I'm only going to engage with people making honest arguments. If you want a response from me, please use the following rubric somewhere in your post:

I believe _____ is the best raid system overall for everyone on Project 1999 because _______

If you just want to troll, troll away, but I'm not responding.

[bthomsen0312]

I thought they were going to be joining other guilds so the can kill in ToV with their alts? Which is it?!? ;)

It's hilarious that you continue to ask people why, and when they give a very thorough explanation as to why you continue to dodge the answer with false arguments from people who didn't even make them. Not once did I talk about alts. The simple fact of the matter is rotating the top end content will either

A. starve bigger guilds of loot ending up with 900 guilds
or
B. cause said bigger guilds to go after EVERY middle tier target that isn't in TOV resulting in guys like BG and PS to never get much of anything done.

It's a bad idea and there's a reason why this server and not any one of the instanced or rotated servers are as popular as this one is. Exclusivity, whether you like to admit it or not, is a driving human factor here.


It boils down to it sucks to suck Loramin and hopefully the tendies don't get cold while you forum warrior

[enjchanter]

WHY?

Please, stop just saying things as if they're self-evidently true: make an honest argument. I keep trying to help you:



You can't leave the because part off (well, I mean, you can, but then you're not making an argument, you're just yelling things into space).

It shouldnt be rotated because it is the best shit available to kill on p99 for the rest of its days. This is high quality, rare stuff that is as good as its gunna be. So the classic experience would be that the best loot in the game is highly sought after. It was not designed to be easy to get.

But you still have to kill the dragons , that's hard right ?
Well no, this content was defeated instantly when it came out (on p99) . So when the dragon is a glorified pinata, the guild vs guild competition is what makes the loot valuable. There is a challenge associated with it. Rotations remove the challenge and just leave you with the (what I think many would consider) tedious part of raiding is.

Its kindof hard to respond to this thread because I really dont think the topic is deep enough to warrant a huge discussion but I'm trying my best to give you an "honest" arguement.

[jpetrick]

Loramin lacks the critical thinking skills to process anything other than his warped reality.

[enjchanter]

Exclusivity, whether you like to admit it or not, is a driving human factor here.


That's it
That's literally all it is

If someone isnt excluded then the thing isnt worth anything

[Wonkie]

I believe gold-dkp runs is the best raid system overall for everyone on Project 1999 because I have a lot of gold

[loramin]

It's hilarious that you continue to ask people why, and when they give a very thorough explanation as to why you continue to dodge the answer with false arguments from people who didn't even make them. Not once did I talk about alts. The simple fact of the matter is rotating the top end content will either

A. starve bigger guilds of loot ending up with 900 guilds
or
B. cause said bigger guilds to go after EVERY middle tier target that isn't in TOV resulting in guys like BG and PS to never get much of anything done.

It's a bad idea and there's a reason why this server and not any one of the instanced or rotated servers are as popular as this one is. Exclusivity, whether you like to admit it or not, is a driving human factor here.


It boils down to it sucks to suck Loramin and hopefully the tendies don't get cold while you forum warrior

Sorry, I was trying to be amusing while at the same time referencing earlier posts that claimed something completely different would happen (that all Aftermath members would simply join smaller guilds with alts and play them).

[Kayso2]

There was not a single guild on live that was rotating current content.

zero
zilch
none
nada

P99 guilds also allow "bottom tier" classes to attend raids in large numbers which wouldn't have happened on live. If you were in a top end guild you were useful or you were cut.

Currently on "repop day" there are 3 guilds (and maybe more) that are going to be for sure functionally locked in and getting loot in TOV

Core
AM
AG

These guys COMPETE against each other which allows smaller guilds like PS and BG etc to steal some smaller fries (see CS dragon)

If I'm AM and I'm locked out of TOV for 4 weeks how do you think those smaller guilds like BG and PS are going to fair when AM is sitting around waiting for their "rotation". They won't have anything else to do other than kill smaller targets and they have the resources and toons to be parked everywhere if they don't need to worry about a vulak pop.

My server absolutely did rotate current content. And they absolutely had multiple HIE paladins, assling druids, and human necros on raids.

That said, none of that matters. What makes this server so different from live is each server only had 1-2 guilds with enough leveled (or AA'd) toons even capable of killing the top current content at any time.

Given a week of little or no competition we have at least 6 guilds capable of killing every single mob in ToV and several more who could do most of the mobs.

Natural outcome of so many years in Kunark and Velious.

Also, nothing is inherently not competitive about rotated ToV. Since there are certain guilds who love competition so much (and totally aren't just in it for the pixels), on their week they can just split up into 4 teams and compete against each other. It is all about the competition, right?

[enjchanter]

The point is that having pixels that are difficult to get and no every joe shmo has is why competition is desired.


A perspective

I do not enjoy the raid scene whatsoever but I'd like some inherently difficult to receive pixels because receiving pixels is cool and enjoyable for me

[zati]

Absolutely 100% not! Look in the upper right hand corner: reproducing classic EverQuest is what this server is built around! The unclassic "competition" is just the best solution the maintainers have found (thus far: they keep changing things over time). They want classic EQ, and based on what they've said they really would prefer not to have to deal with the raid scene at all.

Nobodies (your words ;)) are entitled to their opinion to. So as a nobody on this server, ask yourself: do you think you should have to join a guild where people use artificial mechanisms (eg. CoH ducking) to "compete" in ways that never were practiced on live servers, or do you think any guild capable of killing dragons should have a chance to? Which server would you prefer to play on?

Mhmm I agree.. Dev's here are doin a great of that for sure! They've reproduced the classic experience for me levels 1-60. Got to see end game content in and out of a guild. (Thanks AM for that open ToV raid). I entirely agree w/ you it isn't classic to be CoTH ducking for raid targets, but it doesn't prevent you, or any other guilds from doing so (and gaining an unfair advantage). And I believe CoH ducking has been discouraged among agreeing top end guilds making it more some-what-fair.

In the grand scheme the players and community decide what the end game scene is like(without GM interference). Unless you can get all major guild leaders to approve and agree "rotations" is what's best for everyone the current rule-set seems reasonable.

If a guild is capable of killing a dragon .. my answer is: Yes! they should have an equal chance too(in some form or fashion). Which as of now.. It is (un-classic as you state it) where you'd require 2 CoTH mages properly parked at X,Y,Z targets and a capable pull team / raid force ready to engage during a 16 hr window...

I would continue to play on P99 and roll new chars to experience classic EQ at it's best until I get bored AF.

I believe those that want to see end game content should go through all the heartache and pain (Acquiring Dkp, Tracking Dkp, Dealing with Guild Drama, Winning a /random, All the good stuff that sets this server apart from other servers) that's required to see dank gear is the best raid system overall for everyone on Project 1999 because the current agreed upon mechanics -no instances- doesn't allow it any other way..

[gundumbwing]

I'm pretty sure the powers that be don't care about feelings of exclusivity some poor souls might feel about a game this old.

As far as I can tell they just want a musuem dedicated to classic EQ with as little drama as possible that forces their direct involvement and/or ruining it for the visiting patrons. If they decide it's through rotations then it is what it is and the general "classic" feel of everquest is left untouched in the grand scheme of things.

And considering they already publicly entertained the concept of implementing a rotation (whether in earnest or jest), it's clear they don't particularly care if people decide to leave over it. Just sayin!

[bthomsen0312]

My server absolutely did rotate current content. And they absolutely had multiple HIE paladins, assling druids, and human necros on raids.



I would love to know what server this was - because raiding was hyper competitive with tons of trash talking from every server that I remember.

[Legday]

LORAMIN FROStSEER

Lmk when you see it.

[Mead]

Every live server I played on required competition to obtain pixels.

Sorry you aren't reliving your classic experience? You seem to be in the minority of servers that had rotations.

Hopefully Rogean doesn't ruin the server with rotations.

No response needed, thanks.

[smellis]

skimming through, i gotta appreciate how hard loramin went on this one.

just admit the frustration of this server keeps it interesting enough. if you weren't complaining about p99 what else would you do? you could be doing that right now

[Kayso2]

I would love to know what server this was - because raiding was hyper competitive with tons of trash talking from every server that I remember.

Prexus. And our top guild from Kunark-Luclin was only a step behind the world-first big boys like FoH, Afterlife, LoS, etc.

One highlight from our rotation system was that you had to tag Dain and take a few rounds to see if he was a 350 or 425 version. You had to earn your spot against a 425.

As for trash talking, our server gave the world this gem (http://www.purgatory.net/dain/dd1.html). You're welcome.

[Erati]

Prexus. And our top guild from Kunark-Luclin was only a step behind the world-first big boys like FoH, Afterlife, LoS, etc.

One highlight from our rotation system was that you had to tag Dain and take a few rounds to see if he was a 350 or 425 version. You had to earn your spot against a 425.

As for trash talking, our server gave the world this gem (http://www.purgatory.net/dain/dd1.html). You're welcome.

Heard it here first - rotations had barriers of entry. BDA was right all along, Sontalak at 2 AM to join ToV rotation.

Thanks Chest!

[Fammaden]

While its very fun and totally not a rehash to see a dozen people argue with Loramin about instancing and rotations, the original post never mentions such a thing at all.

The questions posed were simply: are the raid rules outdated and unenforceable? And if so what ruleset could be devised where current staffing could in fact manage enforcement? If not enough staff for any set of rules, why are there still rules?

[ReadOnly]

So the idea of rotations is stupid to me because then, why do I care about playing a game where I can afk for 6 months and just show up when it's my turn to open the chest ?

Isn't that how it is now, except it's you afk 6 days rather than 6 months. Only the FTErs/CothMages are actually doing anything. The rest just prepark, log in when their TeamSpeak alarm goes off, cast CH or backstab or click defensive for 20 secs and then collect their loot.

Sorry, your argument doesn't work here.

[ReadOnly]

Making a thread in Raid Discussion is cringe

Making a thread in Raid Discussion to discuss raids is cringe?

I'd say stop posting before you embarrass yourself but you ruined that in March of 2010.

[Chardy]

I don't understand the mental gymnastics people play when it comes to experiencing raid content and getting pixels for their toons in p99. It's the same as it was 20 years ago.

Do you want a chance at obtaining raid pixels? Join a raiding guild.

Not getting enough of what you want because your raid guild is constantly reliant on teaming up with another guild? Join a self-sufficient raiding guild.

Is your raid guild still getting routinely beat out? Are you still not happy with your lot in Elf sim, and want to see more content, and have a more regular chance at getting those pixels? Join a more successful guild. It's literally that easy (unless you have a major personality disorder, or can't navigate through basic, every day social interactions.)

Be proactive about your personal experience instead of expecting other people to change their behavior to suit you, or you'll be chronically disappointed and upset.

Oh, RnF, sorry....REEEE!

[Kayso2]

Heard it here first - rotations had barriers of entry. BDA was right all along, Sontalak at 2 AM to join ToV rotation.

Thanks Chest!

It was Gore on Christmas Day at 4am I believe, but that's another discussion from a long time ago.

We rotated some mobs on our live server. ToV wasn't rotated, but the first guild in force had it at their leisure. Once Aary died that guild would go left or right and then another guild might come in and go the other way around the ring. We only had one guild that could kill Yelinak prior to Luclin and I don't think AoW or Tunare were ever killed prior to Luclin.

None of that will ever work here. Much easier for two guilds to share than ten.

[enjchanter]

Isn't that how it is now, except it's you afk 6 days rather than 6 months. Only the FTErs/CothMages are actually doing anything. The rest just prepark, log in when their TeamSpeak alarm goes off, cast CH or backstab or click defensive for 20 secs and then collect their loot.

Sorry, your argument doesn't work here.


Yeah we get it raiding is super boring
But if I have to wait 6 months to kill aaryonar to get 2 katanad of pain and have 0 ways of getting the aary yhe other months that drop double amulets then I'm gunna become bored and quit pretty fast

[Dagner]

The elusiveness of not knowing what raid mob each guild is going to get every week, the ability to contest and attempt to kill each raid mob every week, the opportunity to potentially get that one item each week, is what keeps the majority of p99'ers logging in each week. Its what differentiates EQ from most games.

Force a rotation and I'd wager to bet the average daily server population takes a large tumble after just a few weeks once folks get bored waiting for their turn. Take away the challenge and we all might as well just play on one of the modded servers.

[Mead]

Yeah we get it raiding is super boring
But if I have to wait 6 months to kill aaryonar to get 2 katanad of pain and have 0 ways of getting the aary yhe other months that drop double amulets then I'm gunna become bored and quit pretty fast

But at least the Loramins of the server got their chance at loot without putting in any effort except showing up.

[Dman2701]

Omni's said nothing about rotations but about people continuing to break the rules.

Using AON's (so name and guild tag doesn't show) while they are training people
Intentionally mem blurring a mob so guild loses fte
Intentionally agroing and pulling a mob away that someone has fte on to cause that mob to leash
Dispelling a mob when slowed
Stalling a mob by taking a longer path allowing guild more time to log in for kill
Stalling a mob by cothing in 1 tank and 8 clerics and dealing no dps in the first minute of engage
Intentionally training pullers/coth bots in tov. (claiming accidental even though it happens every single time)
People constantly using rapidfire (see lodi, ring turn in,etc)
AFK tracking using /pet attack and gina triggers with a programmable keyboard

I think things like this is what he is talking about, not some type of welfare pixel hand out.

[loramin]

But at least the Loramins of the server got their chance at loot without putting in any effort except showing up.

Here I am falling for the trolls. But look, can you just be honest Mead? How many people in Aftermath actually "compete"? How many just help kill the dragon?

You're arguing so strongly that competition is important, and yet there's so very little of it among any of the people actually doing the raiding. How do you square that?

[Convict]

yeah there is definitely some issues, but ToV itself is probably better now than it has been in a long time.

I think consumables right now, like idol camp and lucan (soulfires) are a bigger issue. Especially when guilds get a hold of it and don't let it go for days or even weeks at a time because there's no rules in place to prevent it.
Its kind of dumb that 1 guild can hold idol camp forever and just keep passing the camp off to themselves indefinitely in an effort to try and block their competition from getting idols and competing with them in ToV..... which is odd because I thought they liked competition? :confused:

:rolleyes:

[Ripqozko]

Here I am falling for the trolls. But look, can you just be honest Mead? How many people in Aftermath actually "compete"? How many just help kill the dragon?

You're arguing so strongly that competition is important, and yet there's so very little of it among any of the people actually doing the raiding. How do you square that?

Even those without active jobs usually pull some weight and feel a sense of achievement beating other guilds. Playing chrono trigger is on new game + is less fun cause stuff is handed to you and nothing is a challenge. It’s not really a hard concept, it’s just like static dungeons vs instances. Go look at lot of wow players they just go through the motion, do there dailies , click box and hope for legendary. Sounds shitty. If you are uncomfortable with your loot situation, guess what? There’s more options for guilds then ever that try, key word try.

[loramin]

Even those without active jobs usually pull some weight and feel a sense of achievement beating other guilds. Playing chrono trigger is on new game + is less fun cause stuff is handed to you and nothing is a challenge. It’s not really a hard concept, it’s just like static dungeons vs instances. Go look at lot of wow players they just go through the motion, do there dailies , click box and hope for legendary. Sounds shitty. If you are uncomfortable with your loot situation, guess what? There’s more options for guilds then ever that try, key word try.

You ignored my entire point there.

"Competition" on P99 is done by 1% of the people in the competing guilds (not an exact percentage, but the point is it's a small minority). The other 99% (or whatever; the non-trackers, non-CoHers, etc.) just show up for pixels.

If what is so important is giving the people who compete the pixels, why does the vast majority of the members of top guilds, all of whom don't compete (literally all they did different was join the right guild) deserve the pixels more than anyone else?

[Dman2701]

More quakes would solve a lot of problems on this server.
Casual guilds want a shot at mobs, quakes are your chance.
Maybe if guilds were scumbags to each other the GMs would bless us with more quakes. Crazy concept

[Mead]

Here I am falling for the trolls. But look, can you just be honest Mead? How many people in Aftermath actually "compete"? How many just help kill the dragon?

You're arguing so strongly that competition is important, and yet there's so very little of it among any of the people actually doing the raiding. How do you square that?

All of them have to coordinate and mobilize together. Even the scrub guilds have someone willing to stare at a screen for hours (days?). And they do, just not for raid targets. It doesn't work if everyone else isn't ready as well. That's where most of the lower tier guilds fail.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that people choose not to sacrifice their personal life for pixels. But don't expect top tier loot if you aren't going to put in the work for it.

Competition is what makes this place fun. If rotations are implemented this server will be trash.

[Gatordash]

WHY?

Please, stop just saying things as if they're self-evidently true: make an honest argument.

I like P99 because it rewards you for your time and effort spent playing more than a lot of other games. It feels pretty good getting an item after spending a ton of time on it. Putting the best equipment P99 has to offer on a rotation system means you don't have to spend all that time and effort to obtain it which lessens the reward, and therefore would make P99 worse imo. And that is why the current system we have is better than a rotation system.

[loramin]

More quakes would solve a lot of problems on this server.
Casual guilds want a shot at mobs, quakes are your chance.
Maybe if guilds were scumbags to each other the GMs would bless us with more quakes. Crazy concept

People are just people: if you put them in a certain system, they'll act a certain way. I don't see any point in blaming everyone on P99 for acting in the way the system they're forced into makes them act (essentially) ...

... but I do see it as a reason to try a different system. If the current one encourages players to act like assholes to each other, how might a rotation system encourage people to act? Especially if it leads to top-end players dispersing their alts into guilds throughout the server?

I'm not saying it's a bad thing that people choose not to sacrifice their personal life for pixels. But don't expect top tier loot if you aren't going to put in the work for it.

Competition is what makes this place fun. If rotations are implemented this server will be trash.

I disagree, but I respect the honesty of your post. You feel strongly that the only people who deserve certain pixels are the people that join guilds with people willing to compete by Project 1999's unique non-classic "competition" mechanisms (even if, again, the vast majority of those people don't actually compete, except in the limited way you mentioned), and that that's what is best for the server.

I think letting more people and more guilds have fun and kill dragons would be better for the server. But at least we're talking eye to eye now.

[America]

Competition is what makes this place fun. If rotations are implemented this server will be trash.

i would agree except that the competition is over-moderated. repeal & replace PNPcare.

[Ripqozko]

You ignored my entire point there.

"Competition" on P99 is done by 1% of the people in the competing guilds (not an exact percentage, but the point is it's a small minority). The other 99% (or whatever; the non-trackers, non-CoHers, etc.) just show up for pixels.

If what is so important is giving the people who compete the pixels, why does the vast majority of the members of top guilds, all of whom don't compete (literally all they did different was join the right guild) deserve the pixels more than anyone else?

Cause it’s a catch 22 in guilds , core needs warm body to fill numbers, warm body needs core to do the heavy lifting. I just don’t get your point. You could get whatever you want and have more options. Raid scene is 30000x better without tempest, ask the other guilds. I even can concede you can rotate your ass off on Kunark , but for top tier content like tov is dumb, as dumb as telling amazon no in New York .

[Nibblewitz]

Let's do a rotation.

AoW is gateway mob.

[loramin]

I like P99 because it rewards you for your time and effort spent playing more than a lot of other games. It feels pretty good getting an item after spending a ton of time on it. Putting the best equipment P99 has to offer on a rotation system means you don't have to spend all that time and effort to obtain it which lessens the reward, and therefore would make P99 worse imo. And that is why the current system we have is better than a rotation system.

I <3 this post. And I also agree with a lot of it.

OF COURSE it should take time and effort to obtain top equipment. But nothing about rotations changes that: you still have to kill the dragons!

As far as EverQuest, the actual game we are all here to play, is concerned, everyone still has to "put in the work" to get the treasure by killing the dragons, regardless of the system that allocates the dragons.

Furthermore, for all your claims about the "time and effort" put in, the vast majority of members of the top guilds don't have to put in that time and effort. Yes the trackers have to stare at nothing for hours, and a few other members have to put in effort, but 95% or so of the guild is putting in no more effort than anyone else on the server ... so why is it better to have a server where only they get to kill the dragons?

[enjchanter]

I <3 this post. And I also agree with a lot of it.

OF COURSE it should take time and effort to obtain top equipment. But nothing about rotations changes that: you still have to kill the dragons!

As far as EverQuest, the actual game we are all here to play, is concerned, everyone still has to "put in the work" to get the treasure by killing the dragons, regardless of the system that allocates the dragons.

Furthermore, for all your claims about the "time and effort" put in, the vast majority of members of the top guilds don't have to put in that time and effort. Yes the trackers have to stare at nothing for hours, and a few other members have to put in effort, but 95% or so of the guild is putting in no more effort than anyone else on the server ... so why is it better to have a server where only they get to kill the dragons?

Because killing the dragon is the easiest part

Tracking it and pulling it before another guild does is the hard part.

If I just show up ... and kill the dragon (on my turn) .... then I'm just waiting till the item.i want drops.

Maybe this week im a warm body just pressing 1 to heal the tank and maybe next week im tracking for 10hrs to fill roles.

[Erati]

The elusiveness of not knowing what raid mob each guild is going to get every week, the ability to contest and attempt to kill each raid mob every week, the opportunity to potentially get that one item each week, is what keeps the majority of p99'ers logging in each week. Its what differentiates EQ from most games.

[bthomsen0312]

I <3 this post. And I also agree with a lot of it.

OF COURSE it should take time and effort to obtain top equipment. But nothing about rotations changes that: you still have to kill the dragons!

As far as EverQuest, the actual game we are all here to play, is concerned, everyone still has to "put in the work" to get the treasure by killing the dragons, regardless of the system that allocates the dragons.

Furthermore, for all your claims about the "time and effort" put in, the vast majority of members of the top guilds don't have to put in that time and effort. Yes the trackers have to stare at nothing for hours, and a few other members have to put in effort, but 95% or so of the guild is putting in no more effort than anyone else on the server ... so why is it better to have a server where only they get to kill the dragons?


I think you seriously don't get what makes the upper echelon of raiders sign in every week.

If you want mobs that you can login and just kill TLP and P2002 both will let you do that. You try to justify that instances != rotations but they effectively are (you are 100% going to get a shot at every mob in the zone)

if you want to kill TOV loramin, join an actual competitive raiding guild (AG CORE AM), or put in a HUGE amount of effort to get the tools necessary to make anonymous competitive.

[Gatordash]

I <3 this post. And I also agree with a lot of it.

OF COURSE it should take time and effort to obtain top equipment. But nothing about rotations changes that: you still have to kill the dragons!

As far as EverQuest, the actual game we are all here to play, is concerned, everyone still has to "put in the work" to get the treasure by killing the dragons, regardless of the system that allocates the dragons.

Furthermore, for all your claims about the "time and effort" put in, the vast majority of members of the top guilds don't have to put in that time and effort. Yes the trackers have to stare at nothing for hours, and a few other members have to put in effort, but 95% or so of the guild is putting in no more effort than anyone else on the server ... so why is it better to have a server where only they get to kill the dragons?

The competitive aspect and the teamwork involved of getting the dragon to your camp adds a layer of difficulty to killing the dragon and is something I find enjoyable and would not want to get rid of. To be fair, I'm relatively new to tov dragons, but different situations due to some variance along the line of a pull happens every week that make each pull different. So even though we are re-playing the same content, chances are I'm going to see a new situation on one of the pulls that I haven't seen before. This makes the game more fun imo and would be something I would not get to experience with a rotation system.

As far as time and effort go, I disagree with you that being a "warm body" or whatever in a raiding guild is the same amount of time and effort to get pixels as you would put forth in a rotation system. Try apping to Core/AM/AG (don't actually cause I know you love anon =P). Put in the time to get your character to meet their raid requirements, and put in the time on raids and earn the dkp until you can bid and upgrade an item on your shaman. And then tell me thats the same as scheduling Anon's ToV time slot for March 22nd @5 pm pst or whatever it would be.

[loramin]

I think you seriously don't get what makes the upper echelon of raiders sign in every week.

I'm so completely out in left field that I don't think that what's desired by the upper echelon of raiders is necessarily what is best for the server overall :eek:

If you want mobs that you can login and just kill TLP and P2002 both will let you do that. You try to justify that instances != rotations but they effectively are (you are 100% going to get a shot at every mob in the zone)

"If you don't think P99 is perfect go play somewhere else! ... don't, you know, try and make P99 better" :(

if you want to kill TOV loramin, join an actual competitive raiding guild (AG CORE AM), or put in a HUGE amount of effort to get the tools necessary to make anonymous competitive.

Again, this has nothing to do with me wanting loot or the size of the current guild I'm in. In case I haven't been clear by repeating it over, and over, I'm (literally) not talking about what's best for Loramin or Loramin's current guild: I'm talking about what's best for the server.

[Fifield]

Again, this has nothing to do with me wanting loot or the size of the current guild I'm in. In case I haven't been clear by repeating it over, and over, I'm (literally) not talking about what's best for Loramin or Loramin's current guild: I'm talking about what's best for the server.

Whats best for the server is whats currently going on, guilds working together on disputes rather then the Tempest way of going straight to GM's.

We all fuck up, we just make it right between guilds and all is good. Feels good raiding right now on P99. A simple tell goes a long way.

[Fabby]

ah man I wanted to post but this went to shit so fast. <3 Omni, good post, won't solve anything sadly, still <3 ya.

[bthomsen0312]

"If you don't think P99 is perfect go play somewhere else! ... don't, you know, try and make P99 better" :(



again - you are taking the context out. You can play both. no one told you to leave, but if you think you "should be able to kill all the content" at your leisure

If you want to play a casual game that lets you do that there are plenty of other options, please stop trying to turn classic everquest (one of the original "hardcore" games) into a casual game

[Foxplay]

I agree with the sentiment that raid logging sucks, be it via batphone, on a 7day lockout MMO, or a raid rotation that could take months

Raid logging is the number one reason I quit rift and I was in the top guild on my sever. The game at a point boiled down to barely anyone ever playing or having Jack to do unless it was raid night (the lockouts resetting)

Not sure there is a solution for p99 while remaining classic when it comes to the questions of the current meta and ruleset favoring batphones and trains

Personally I think part of the solution would be to root the dragons or make rules as to how far from spawn they can be pulled... This would eliminate fte trains but more importantly it would counter alot of the high level raid bloat... Alot of people would stop raiding if they had to earn their pixels / clear trash and not just pull them to zone in

[Bardp1999]

The answer to the raid scene is very simple, but a bag limit on how many Dragons we can kill. During deer season you can't go out with a machine gun and slaughter 100 deer, there is a bag limit of a couple of doe and a couple of bucks. Maybe for guilds like Aftermath give them a bigger bag limit or have a system in place where once you get X amount of kills your bag limit increases. I don't know but this is one of the only solutions that keeps competitiveness and doesn't allow one guild to dominate the server (Spoiler: Aftermath is dominating/monopolizing the server in a big way).

[bthomsen0312]

The answer to the raid scene is very simple, but a bag limit on how many Dragons we can kill. During deer season you can't go out with a machine gun and slaughter 100 deer, there is a bag limit of a couple of doe and a couple of bucks. Maybe for guilds like Aftermath give them a bigger bag limit or have a system in place where once you get X amount of kills your bag limit increases. I don't know but this is one of the only solutions that keeps competitiveness and doesn't allow one guild to dominate the server (Spoiler: Aftermath is dominating/monopolizing the server in a big way).


Are we talking about the same aftermath that has dropped vulak like 5 times in a row recently?

They are the premier raiding guild don't get me wrong, but they have solid competition

[ErlickBachman]

There was not a single guild on live that was rotating current content.

zero
zilch
none
nada


Quellious and the Rathe servers rotated "current content" when I played on live from 2000 to 2003. Just thought you should know.

[BlownAway]

Competitive? Are you guys seriously considering Killing kunark dragons, 32k hp, with in moments of spawn with 100 people or, 140+ guild member in ToV on respawn day with almost no one else competitive? ToV dragons just last cycle being left up for many many hours until aftermath can go ahead and casually log in the next morning to kill them alone, competition? All this bull shit about "Just join us if you want to experience content." Is 160+ people not enough? You guys all want to just split up the other 3-400 raiders each night and get 200+ more members in AM? What kind of backwards ass thinking is this?

Is it so hard for any of you to understand that some people want to experience content with there own guild mates they grew in the game with? How many of you in Aftermath right now were around for a guild first kill? How many of you started from nothing and set up raid kill from scratch. How many of the 120+ members at that raid did ANYTHING to progress aftermath to its current infrastructure? Real easy to talk so much shit about effort when 94% of all of you did nothing to get the guild your in to the point of killing the mob for the .... how many hundreds of time now?

Why has no one considered or discussed splitting up a ToV rotation into 3 Tiers of mobs. So that there are 3 guilds each week in TOV killing dragons. Make the Tiers of mobs set up by difficulty with the Hardest being a barrier of entry into moving into the next tier. Give only 1 day to kill the ones on your slot then they become FFA. Thats 12 Guilds killing or attempting to kill FTE's in TOV each month. With AM eating all the mobs not killed in time. This would keep more people seeing content and in TOV each week and more ability for older content to be varied. Mobs like Lord Vyemm wont be sitting around for 3 days and the top guild will have plenty of mobs to Snag up as the newer guilds stumble around.

[rezzie]

Furthermore, for all your claims about the "time and effort" put in, the vast majority of members of the top guilds don't have to put in that time and effort.

The Aftermath DKP page is open for all to view. Here it is, sorted by: adjustment (tracking) DKP (http://aftermath99.org/eqdkp/index.php/index_points?s=&sort=6|desc). Looks like your claim that the vast majority of our members don't put in time or effort is sadly not backed up by reality, as the vast majority of our members do all contribute a reasonable amount of tracking.

There is nothing stopping Anonymous, or Omni, or Dawn Believers, or any other guild on the server from competing in ToV or the other top tier targets. No guild has an uncatchable advantage. The mage spots are well known, the pull techniques are well known, and there is ample opportunity to practice pulls with flurries or park mages during mini-crawls.

Azure Guard never used to compete in ToV. Around the time of Tempest's demise, they decided they wanted to compete. Surprise surprise, they're putting in the time and now they're being rewarded with mobs they are winning competitively against seasoned Core and Aftermath pull teams.

The only thing stopping you doing the same is that you want the rules changed to suit your personal play style more.

Ask the Azure Guard guys if the Vulak loot they earned would have felt the same if they'd killed it on their rotated week, vs sniping it from the hands of both Aftermath and Core.

[Jonabis]

Just remove raid boss respawn windows. Make raid mobs only respawns on quakes. 0-5 quakes a month. Keep current rules(some rules no longer matter). Zero has to be a possibility to prevent end of month poopsockin as we have seen in the past. This ends socking, provides good competition, and gives more guilds opportunity to see content if they put in some effort. Kittens got all west dragons last quake because they tried. People can xp, or trash clear raid without fear of DQ'ing their guild.

[Nexii]

Just remove raid boss respawn windows. Make raid mobs only respawns on quakes. 0-5 quakes a month. Keep current rules(some rules no longer matter). Zero has to be a possibility to prevent end of month poopsockin as we have seen in the past. This ends socking, provides good competition, and gives more guilds opportunity to see content if they put in some effort. Kittens got all west dragons last quake because they tried. People can xp, or trash clear raid without fear of DQ'ing their guild.

I've always favored quakes over variance based repops, but 0-5 quakes would be much less mobs per week. You'd need ~0-10 quakes to equal what we get now (roughly 3.5 variance repops and 1.5 quakes a month)

[Wonkie]

quakes should autosuspend whatever guild killed vulak most recently, for 12 hours

[Prostatus]

Loramin argues with everyone V3.0

[Littul Jonn]

Ask the Azure Guard guys if the Vulak loot they earned would have felt the same if they'd killed it on their rotated week, vs sniping it from the hands of both Aftermath and Core.

It most certainly would not have, I wish we had gotten it a bit more clean to avoid the meme's and the "Accidental Guard" comments lol. Props to AM and Core for not pitching a fit over that as well, we respect that. We're always working to get better but there's a bit of a skill/numbers gap we're still working to overcome.

Side note, that quake that happened recently, im pretty sure Kittens got all or most of the WToV mobs right?

@loramin i like the current raid meta because it rewards teamwork, dedication, and competition. Sure it might be better if it was 8 hour windows instead of 16 hours but a split second coth and the race to maintain FTE is still thrilling. I think if you split the server pop in thirds you'd have the "top tier raiders", the guilds that want to compete but lack the numbers/infrastructure, then everyone else who isn't in a guild or is still leveling.

I understand your point of view, i was in Omni for a long time and an Officer there at one point. I left because while there were great people and players there, i wanted to compete and defeat the big dogs (AM/AW at the time). I cant play as much as i used to but I definitely helped us level mages and clerics not to mention bring people into the guild.

If you want to play your style thats great but I don't think that it means another third of the server should have to as well (not counting non raid elidgable folks). Just my opinion but i think there's plenty of other servers for folks who enjoy that play style. Thats where a lot of the older AG went to (TAKP) and i guess they're having fun there. Thanks for standing your ground on your points, I just think there's a significant portion, or at least an equal portion to your argument, who dont see eye to eye on who "deserves" to kill stuff in ToV. Cheers guys

[mattydef]

I didn't read a lot of this thread but i thought i would let it be known i cracked up at the dude that compared raiding on p99 to the NFL.

[Wonkie]

I didn't read a lot of this thread but i thought i would let it be known i cracked up at the dude that compared raiding on p99 to the NFL.

most NFL players have brain damage so yes

[Bbeta]

socialism doesnt work IRL and wont work here.

please close thread

[Convict]

more quakes has been and will always be to answer to solve a lot of the strife casual guilds are experiencing. But thats asking CSR to put in more work and the whole point was to try and lessen their workload. Quakes tend to need to be monitored and that's probably why there has been much less of them because rogean doesn't want to babysit 2-3 quakes a month.

about AG competing and winning mobs in ToV, yes they do get some but lets not pretend that AM doesn't still get 80+% of the mobs because they are bloated beyond what should be possible for a classic EQ guild and are able to keep multple FTE teams going at multiple targets around the clock during repop windows.
I'm tired of hearing all these aftermath forum warriors telling us about how other guilds can just "put in the effort and take mobs if they wanted to", its just not a reasonable thing to ask other guilds to just zerg recruit anything with a pulse to compete with aftermath. It would be fine if they just put all their effort into getting the top targets, but that's not enough they try to take fucking everything from everyone all the time, its ridiculous. They don't want competition, they want all the pixels.

There should be a roster cap for guilds. AM shouldn't be able to recruit half the server and just have enough people online at all times to simultaneously sock ToV, Kt/statue, CT, Dain, PD, Naggy, Gore, Sev, or pretty much anything of value, all the while also locking down idol camp as well.

[doormat00]

Omni Guild Charter:

Stay out of Rants and Flames. This is NOT negotiable.


http://puu.sh/D46hW/e3f65062da.png

[Jauna]

more quakes has been and will always be to answer to solve a lot of the strife casual guilds are experiencing. But thats asking CSR to put in more work and the whole point was to try and lessen their workload. Quakes tend to need to be monitored and that's probably why there has been much less of them because rogean doesn't want to babysit 2-3 quakes a month.

about AG competing and winning mobs in ToV, yes they do get some but lets not pretend that AM doesn't still get 80+% of the mobs because they are bloated beyond what should be possible for a classic EQ guild and are able to keep multple FTE teams going at multiple targets around the clock during repop windows.
I'm tired of hearing all these aftermath forum warriors telling us about how other guilds can just "put in the effort and take mobs if they wanted to", its just not a reasonable thing to ask other guilds to just zerg recruit anything with a pulse to compete with aftermath. It would be fine if they just put all their effort into getting the top targets, but that's not enough they try to take fucking everything from everyone all the time, its ridiculous. They don't want competition, they want all the pixels.

There should be a roster cap for guilds. AM shouldn't be able to recruit half the server and just have enough people online at all times to simultaneously sock ToV, Kt/statue, CT, Dain, PD, Naggy, Gore, Sev, or pretty much anything of value, all the while also locking down idol camp as well.

the thing that will totally destroy your entire post is...

alts. if you think any long timer only has a few 60s then lol and if there is a roster cap then they will break off and make alt guilds

[rezzie]

There should be a roster cap for guilds. AM shouldn't be able to recruit half the server and just have enough people online at all times to simultaneously sock ToV, Kt/statue, CT, Dain, PD, Naggy, Gore, Sev, or pretty much anything of value, all the while also locking down idol camp as well.

Wait, so we recruit half the server just to cock-block the other half of the server from loot? :confused:

[Jimjam]

let's compromise and rotate every mob that doesnt drop a bis item

There are plenty of Dragons wandering around WW that are rarely killed!

Also, wasn't Vulak under a rotation agreement last year?

[Mead]

What happened to this guy?

More preface: these are still only my opinions. This is not Tempest rhetoric. This is my own personal vision. If you're mistaking my words here for the voice of Tempest, you would be mistaken. Tempest is the home of my dreams and ally to my values.

I am a member of Tempest but I should define that I am not blindly loyal to Tempest. Tempest is absolutely the most fair and abiding guild on the server. It is the only guild that puts the server rules above its own well-being. This is how all guilds should function. This is how all guilds should be MADE to function. The rules exist to create fairness and balance. They exist to prevent abuses that have somehow been allowed to permeate every-single-week. A guild should not shirk from these rules for short-term gains. Competition is welcomed but no guild should ever have to cheat and lie to get nearly meaningless pixels. I'm very proud that Tempest exists fully above board in this regard. We do not ask ourselves "Did anyone see us breaking a rule?" We just ask "DID WE BREAK A RULE?" and that is the absolute decider of whether a mob is conceded. "What can we do better next time?" is always the next question. Ask any member whether these statements are true, I dare you. If this ever changes in Tempest, it will not be home to me any longer but I am confident that in those terms, my stay in Tempest is cemented.

I have never had a truly bad experience with the staff here. I've been in similar shoes before and even when I would disagree with their decision, I can understand how they might have arrived there. It is not an easy job. It takes a special dedication and caring for this server to do what they do week in and week out. I have a respect for them that I can't fully express in words.

I like to think I was a pretty average member of this community. I like to think that most people who play this server are typically quiet, good-natured members. They keep their heads down and play the game casually and try to not cause trouble. I bet most don't frequent the forums, only coming there for trading access and server chat threads, not drama. That's a pretty nice way to live.

That is normal. That is what things should be like.

I realized recently that I've been a silent observer here for far too long. That the direction of the server is no longer being coordinated solely by the staff, but rather by the misanthropic players among us who would rather revel in the smoldering chaos that they can create. So I can no longer be silent.

I'm glad that the cancers of this server are so outspoken. It makes them easy to identify. I've given a couple days for some of the things I've said to circulate and sink in... and many of those I speak of couldn't help themselves and did run rampant with some of my statements. I understand that some of them are very concerned by what my words might do for their own efforts here. Others simply don't understand what I'm doing yet or who I even am. Perhaps if they could actually log in they'd know. They'll have to wait to be told instead.

I refuse to let attacks on this community continue unmitigated and unchecked. We should be speaking out against their actions. It is not acceptable for us to allow them to determine what is normal for this community. It is self-defeating as they will cause irreversible and catastrophic damage before they are addressed in any meaningful fashion if we let them continue like this. This server will never be the same and it will likely never recover.

The stirrings my previous post caused were better than I expected. It's interesting that they cling to the same few stories about Tempest like children to their security blankets. They ran out of ammo so fast they started telling stories about how THEY screw up with implication it's Tempest's fault. Guess they forgot to put the spin on those ones. It is even through these reactions that I do not hold a grudge against them. I wish for them to see that a change is needed. I wish that they would make that decision themselves.

I once called many of them friend and it is not with anger or political ploy that I make these posts. I am deeply concerned for the continuation of this Project and I believe the only path it has without change is a lesser course than even today. I believe if that if the venom and hatred that exist on these forums and in-game between fellow enthusiasts of this EverQuest Project continues unabated, there will be devastating changes in the climate that I fear would not be survivable for most. It is not fair to the staff and players who have invested so much into this server.

This is a call to action. I am not asking the community to join us in Tempest (though you're welcome to). I am asking the many to speak out against the few. Form your own opinions from what evidence you can access and know that EVERYTHING posted in RNF is a weapon aimed against this server.

I said before that this community is too isolated for us to exist here full of hatred. I'm not calling out guilds. I'm not naming individuals. I am addressing behavior. I am drawing attention to how we, as adults playing a 20 year old elf simulator, treat eachother and the game that we collectively appreciate. I genuinely believe that this is an issue that resides beyond guild boundaries and loyalties. I'm speaking to individuals who want this server to stop being so infected. There is enough filth in the real world, let this be our escape from that.

I'd like to extend this invitation to the indifferent server staff whose fervor are the real catalyst for making this server tick. I would specifically ask the staff and the playerbase to objectively examine the actions of individuals. Do not define what is acceptable today by what was tolerated yesterday. That is the slipperiest slope of all. Ask yourself what the absolute should be. Set your own standard and compare the actions to that. That's all you have to do. It should be easy and quite revealing.

Watch what Tempest does. See who we are for yourself instead of being told by others what we are.

And try to remember: Finding answers is not the same thing as solving problems. We need to solve the problem.

Did he cure the server of cancer?

[BlownAway]

The Aftermath DKP page is open for all to view. Here it is, sorted by: adjustment (tracking) DKP (http://aftermath99.org/eqdkp/index.php/index_points?s=&sort=6|desc). Looks like your claim that the vast majority of our members don't put in time or effort is sadly not backed up by reality, as the vast majority of our members do all contribute a reasonable amount of tracking.



Sitting on a tracking toon that, you did not help place, did not help level, 95 % chance you dont even know the person who made the toon. Even if all 250+ active members helped Track for the ... 160 raids this month. This is still 1 % of the effort any new guild would have to put in to even just attempt to start LEARNING the pulls. How many of these vast majority of effort exerting raiders had ANYTHING AT ALL, to do with the years of infrastructure and guild developing required to now kill stuff in ToV? You are all just riding on the coat tails of years of others work and claiming that you are now putting in effort. It is insane.

Please for love of Tunare stop saying you are competing. There is no competition using someone else system and effort to pull in and kill Dragons with 4-5-6 times the necessary force, or other guild force. It is not competing when you can just stop half way through re pop night and let everything stay up until the next morning knowin that literally it will still be there the next day when u decide to get up at 10 am and slowly form up and then kill them.


There is nothing stopping Anonymous, or Omni, or Dawn Believers, or any other guild on the server from competing in ToV or the other top tier targets. No guild has an uncatchable advantage. The mage spots are well known, the pull techniques are well known, and there is ample opportunity to practice pulls with flurries or park mages during mini-crawls.


This is even more pathetic and laughable then the last statement. I assume that 95 % of you Aftermath people were in one of these Anon/Omni/DB guilds that had "nothing stopping them" Did you stick it out and devote "time and effort" into helping that guild get to "compete"? Or did you just, stay in that guild until you could loot all available things, and then stop "effort and competition" to just join the shit fuck Zerg for easy mode vs effort? Guilds shouldn't have to "practice" doing things the way the Zerg fuck force does it who has 4 years of OTHER PEOPLES effort cheeze the shit out of said mobs now. Especially when half the people practicing are just going to join the easy team soon as they feel like not doing shit instead of building a new guild.

Azure Guard never used to compete in ToV. Around the time of Tempest's demise, they decided they wanted to compete. Surprise surprise, they're putting in the time and now they're being rewarded with mobs they are winning competitively against seasoned Core and Aftermath pull teams.

The only thing stopping you doing the same is that you want the rules changed to suit your personal play style more.

Ask the Azure Guard guys if the Vulak loot they earned would have felt the same if they'd killed it on their rotated week, vs sniping it from the hands of both Aftermath and Core.

Grats AG and PS for after YEARS of having the force, desire, people, guild inter relationship to be able to Clear all of ToV easily, to now here recently finally getting your foot in the door. Like seriously awesome for them. Tho this isnt helping your point of view AT ALL. Sadly just as they are getting there, AM is turning into a Record Zerg with now the majority of there old Competition in there guild. Sadly the current Meta of AM zerging shit with a force equal to all the competitors combined + years of others infrastructure + no effort access to end game loot with little competition , just means the reality of the time/effort/insanity spent to just now "compete" is a HUGE sign of how fucked up it is for any none re rolled for the 6th tie guild to truly get a chance at experiencing everything the game has to offer.

So just Join AM then man ! Come kill dragons in less time then it takes to /who guild and read each persons name! Come compete VS no one 80% of the time besides your fellow guild mates on Dragon Points! Lets all brag about effort and reward even though we did nothing at all to get this guild here besides replace 1 old person with 3 new people from other guilds! We can all denounce the old guild we came from for not trying, as we our selves stop tying for them and take easy street! Be sure to get all the stuff that requires actual interactions and relationships first before you leave tho! Cause over here its just about the Points!

[loramin]

Loramin argues with everyone V3.0

Well, it's RnF. RnF has a much higher percentage of top-end guild members, so naturally if you have a discussion here it's going to be dominated by voices who want to keep their unclassic and really not EverQuest at all "competition" and ëxclusivitey" system, whether it's best for the server or not.

And I knew I was going into the lion's den when I started, so I'm not complaining. I'm just mentioning it because I don't want anyone to think the views in this thread reflect the server, when RnF most definitely does not represent the server.

[Ripqozko]

Well, it's RnF. RnF has a much higher percentage of top-end guild members, so naturally if you have a discussion here it's going to be dominated by voices who want to keep their unclassic and really not EverQuest at all "competition" and ëxclusivitey" system, whether it's best for the server or not.

And I knew I was going into the lion's den when I started, so I'm not complaining. I'm just mentioning it because I don't want anyone to think the views in this thread reflect the server, when RnF most definitely does not represent the server.

There is no Russian conspiracy

[loramin]

There is no Russian conspiracy

And if you believe that RnF reflects the general server population I have a bridge to sell you.

[Ripqozko]

And if you believe that RnF reflects the general server population I have a bridge to sell you.

Sorry you don’t get raid

[Heebs13]

How did this thread even become about rotations? This is the most impressive derailing I've ever seen.

[Champion_Standing]

We all know that technical limitations aren't the issue: Rogean and Nilbog will never implement instancing on P99. So again, let's be honest: if you're bringing up instancing you're not seriously proposing it as an option, you're using it to falsely equate it to a viewpoint you disagree with.

All I'm trying to do is have an honest debate here. That means admitting that a lot of our raid circumstances are unavoidable. P99 has higher population than many in-era live servers, a higher concentration of people with the desire/resources to play EQ as a full time job, and most importantly (due to its long lifespan) it has an incredibly unclassic skew towards higher-end characters.

That's the reality we all have to face, so then the question simply becomes, in that environment, what's best for everyone? It's just utilitarianism.

P99 tried having a monopoly guild (TMO) for a long time. No one but TMO liked that. P99 tried having it's current "competition" system (several variations of it in fact), and as we are all aware that amounts to only a few guilds dominating (which is still way more people getting to experience content than under the TMO system). But we've only ever once, and only briefly, tried any kind of structured raiding (the whole class C/R thing), and never a true rotation.

Maybe rotations are the best system for P99, maybe they aren't. All I'm asking is that people honestly defend their views one way or another. Say "____ is the best system for our current top-heavy P99 server" (whose explicit goal is to make classic EQ available for everyone) and make honest arguments to that effect.

Argue that:


a single guild monopolizing all top content and preventing anyone else from enjoying it is what's best for the server
a few top-end guilds made up of the absolute most dedicated players monopolizing all top content is what's best for the server
top content rotated among all guilds capable of killing that content is what's best for the server
some other system is what's best for the server


But just, do it honestly. Is "scoring forum points" really that much more important than just making honest arguments about what you feel is best for everyone on this server?

Why do I have to argue one of those points? they all suck. I'm completely serious. if you want significant change around here start pushing for instanced raid zones. Ultimately this would have the same effect as rotations, but you could kill dragons once a week instead of once every month and a half. The server is bloated af anyway and anyone dedicated to raiding is eventually going to get their bis items, does it really matter if it happens faster?

Small guilds could get pushed out of a rotation system just as easily as they get pushed out of raid zones. You'd have people lawerying even harder to get guilds taken off the rotation entirely after they wiped a few times or failed to clear the zone on their week. What happens if a guild gets removed from the rotation? When can they reapply? Should any guild that asks be put on or would there be a qualification system where the guild has to prove they deserve a spot? If so, what would the requirements be?

I know rotations sound nice, but it will not be as simple as the staff making a list then forgetting about it.

[Dugface]

Howabout if the respawn timers were reduced?

The issue is that not enough people get to experience the end content often enough. And it's ridiculously contested with people rushing and training each other. Whether you have contested or rotations, 7 day respawn timers are a bit of a drag. Reduce it to perhaps 48 h. Drop 3 day respawns to 24 h. Just make Vindicator an instant respawn.

Sure it's not classic, and the server will be flooded with more loot (like it isn't already after a decade of p99), but people get more of the action they want, you can keep the rush of competing, and it's just more often.

[loramin]

if you want significant change around here start pushing for instanced raid zones.


Howabout if the respawn timers were reduced?

Both these things have been shot down by the staff in the past. Instances are all but guaranteed never to happen here on Project 1999: either Rogean or Nilbog would probably have to have an aneurysm to change their minds. Suggesting them is a poison pill.

Reduced respawn times are possible, but extremely unlikely as the staff has consistently said no for the entire project's history. Even our current beloved "earthquakes" took years of lobbying before the staff finally agreed to implement them, and even then only because they simulated classic server resets.

If we're going to have an honest discussion about the best raid system for P99, it has to exclude the ideas the staff will never implement, and limit it to things that can actually happen here ... like rotations, which the staff literally rolled out a few months ago and (again) were absolutely classic on many live servers.


they all suck. I'm completely serious.

Right, well I sort of thought it went without saying, but given the constraints on this server (eg. no instances) there will never be a perfect solution that makes everyone happy. So when I say "best for P99", it's sort of implied that I'm saying "option that sucks the least".

You'd have people lawerying even harder to get guilds taken off the rotation entirely after they wiped a few times or failed to clear the zone on their week. What happens if a guild gets removed from the rotation? When can they reapply? Should any guild that asks be put on or would there be a qualification system where the guild has to prove they deserve a spot? If so, what would the requirements be?

I know rotations sound nice, but it will not be as simple as the staff making a list then forgetting about it.

So again, I'm not arguing that rotations are magical or will solve all problems, I'm saying they're the best (least sucky) solution for P99. All of your later questions can be answered, but the one that really bugs me is the first one:

You'd have people lawerying even harder to get guilds taken off the rotation entirely after they wiped a few times or failed to clear the zone on their week.

So what? People can "lawyer" all they want, but this server is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship. If Rogean implements rotations, part of doing that would be establishing a system to answer your questions, including settling when people leave the rotation.

And if he's smart, he could even setup the system in a way that makes players police each other so the staff has less work to do. For instance, he could make it so that to drop a guild from the rotation a player from another guild has to fraps them failing on gatekeeper mob X twice. Or he could say that whoever gets ToV this week has to send a representative to observe new guild Y that is trying to kill gatekeeper mob X for the first time so they can get into the rotation.

Instead of a system designed to pit everyone against each other, the staff could implement a system where the players have to work with each other (don't send the observer for the new guild's gatekeeper fight? your guild loses its next ToV week). And again, such a system strikes me as massively better for the server and most players (ie. not just the top guilds, and not just the RnF-dwellers).

[Fifield]

What happened to this guy?



Did he cure the server of cancer?

Good question
Better yet where did flickk and bell ringer run off to?

[Danth]

And if you believe that RnF reflects the general server population I have a bridge to sell you.

Matter of interpretation, I suspect. It's flagrantly obvious that the majority of the server population raids only infrequently or not at all. I'm part of that majority. However, that portion of the community is totally irrelevant insofar as this sort of discussion is concerned--might as well be playing a different game entirely. That's why I've not participated much in spite of reading the thread--I'm not going to be in temple veeshan more than once in a blue moon regardless of ruleset so what do I care?. Within the subset of the active raiding population the views posted in the thread might be more representative.

The frequent complaint that a rotation will struggle because of a fundamentally inadequate spawn rate seems fair enough. The Kunark-era "class R" rotation eventually (and predictably) broke down for exactly that reason. The middle-tier guilds turned against each other due to there being fundamentally insufficient spawns to go around. The pixel sickness took over and it fell apart. Any proposed rotation must somehow address that problem or else it'll suffer the same fate. How is that goal achieved within the existing game mechanics? Interested ion your thoughts on that matter.

Danth

[d3r14k]

And if you believe that RnF reflects the general server population I have a bridge to sell you.

WTB Loramin's bridge

[Nibblewitz]

We seem to be conflating the ideas of acquiring pixels and contesting the pinatas of pixels.

Standing on the sideline and watching your competition kill a dragon is experiencing content.

[feanan]

It's really amusing to watch the "big dogs" talk about competition, when everyone knows that really means how many fully buffed and geared raid forces you can leave logged around the major targets.

I believe a lot of you just log in to the next buffed 60 when one dies right? instead of rezing and recovery?

pretty lame, but its amusing how you delude yourself into thinking what great competitors you all are.

[loramin]

It's really amusing to watch the "big dogs" talk about competition, when everyone knows that really means how many fully buffed and geared raid forces you can leave logged around the major targets.

I believe a lot of you just log in to the next buffed 60 when one dies right? instead of rezing and recovery?

pretty lame, but its amusing how you delude yourself into thinking what great competitors you all are.

Well look, in a way they are. It takes time and dedication to level an alt up to 60 so you can park him somewhere. It takes time and dedication to CotH duck, or hit /pet attack foo, or to do whatever "competition" means on P99 today. When I keep putting "competition" in quotes, it's not that I'm suggesting there's no competition in the current system, it's that that "competition" isn't EverQuest (classic or otherwise).

The current raid scene is it's own game, separate from the one where you actually pretend to be an elf and slay dragons. There's too many elfs and not enough dragons, so we need some kind of out of game system: that's just the reality.

All I'm saying is, P99 has tried these made up competition games for so long, literally the entire history of the server (10 years!) except for a brief few months. People are so heavily invested in them that they literally don't care about the actual game of EverQuest at all: multiple people in this thread have said that game doesn't matter at all, all that matters is the made up "competition" game. Does that not sound crazy to anyone, that people would leave a classic EQ server not because they can't play classic EQ, but if the GMs take their made-up non-EQ "competition" game away from them?

I disagree. I think P99 is about playing classic EverQuest, and I think the best way to let the most people do that is rotations. And even if I'm wrong, we've tried monopolies and made up competition games for years on this server: why not try a more classic approach that exposes more content to more people?

[Ripqozko]

Well look, in a way they are. It takes time and dedication to level an alt up to 60 so you can park him somewhere. It takes time and dedication to CotH duck, or hit /pet attack foo, or to do whatever "competition" means on P99 today. When I keep putting "competition" in quotes, it's not that I'm suggesting there's no competition in the current system, it's that that "competition" isn't EverQuest (classic or otherwise).

The current raid scene is it's own game, separate from the one where you actually pretend to be an elf and slay dragons. There's too many elfs and not enough dragons, so we need some kind of out of game system: that's just the reality.

All I'm saying is, P99 has tried these made up competition games for so long, literally the entire history of the server (10 years!) except for a brief few months. People are so heavily invested in them that they literally don't care about the actual game of EverQuest at all: multiple people in this thread have said that game doesn't matter at all, all that matters is the made up "competition" game. Does that not sound crazy to anyone, that people would leave a classic EQ server not because they can't play classic EQ, but if the GMs take their made-up non-EQ "competition" game away from them?

I disagree. I think P99 is about playing classic EverQuest, and I think the best way to let the most people do that is rotations. And even if I'm wrong, we've tried monopolies and made up competition games for years on this server: why not try a more classic approach that exposes more content to more people?

Sorry anon doesn’t get tov loot

[loramin]

Within the subset of the active raiding population the views posted in the thread might be more representative.

I really, really don't think they are. Do a simple tally of people's guild tags in this thread if you don't believe me. Even ignoring the obvious top-guild people who don't put their tag in their sig, it's clear that the voices in this thread neither represent the server nor the raiding population.

Look, let's be honest: RnF is for losers like me who have too much time on their hands. Everyone here clearly has too much time on their hands. But there's nothing about raiding on P99 that requires you to have too much time on your hands (although obviously the current system massively benefits those people). There are literally thousands of people who raid on the server who never even look at RnF.

The frequent complaint that a rotation will struggle because of a fundamentally inadequate spawn rate seems fair enough. The Kunark-era "class R" rotation eventually (and predictably) broke down for exactly that reason. The middle-tier guilds turned against each other due to there being fundamentally insufficient spawns to go around. The pixel sickness took over and it fell apart. Any proposed rotation must somehow address that problem or else it'll suffer the same fate. How is that goal achieved within the existing game mechanics? Interested ion your thoughts on that matter.

Right, so out of P99's 10-year history we've tried rotations ... never. We tried some structured system (class R/C) ... for a few months. The entire rest of the time it's either been monopolies or made-up non-classic EQ "competition" systems. I think it's completely unfair to assume from those few months of non-rotation that all structured systems, let alone all forms of rotation systems, are impossible or bad for P99.

[Littul Jonn]

Small observation then im out - You do know nobody CotH ducks right?

Cloki's original point is valid in that the burden of proof needed for "cheating" is insane. However if you look at the targets in ToV, or really anywhere now, nobody is bending rules or training on purpose. The main reasons others are getting mobs and not your guild is the bigger guildss have more people who can contest longer.

Advice, not that anyone wants to hear it, level 2 coth mages to 55 and 3 clerics to 40 (for CH), contest 2 hours of whatever mob you'd like, and see how ya do.

[Champion_Standing]

So what? People can "lawyer" all they want, but this server is not a democracy, it's a dictatorship. If Rogean implements rotations, part of doing that would be establishing a system to answer your questions, including settling when people leave the rotation.

And if he's smart, he could even setup the system in a way that makes players police each other so the staff has less work to do. For instance, he could make it so that to drop a guild from the rotation a player from another guild has to fraps them failing on gatekeeper mob X twice. Or he could say that whoever gets ToV this week has to send a representative to observe new guild Y that is trying to kill gatekeeper mob X for the first time so they can get into the rotation.

Instead of a system designed to pit everyone against each other, the staff could implement a system where the players have to work with each other (don't send the observer for the new guild's gatekeeper fight? your guild loses its next ToV week). And again, such a system strikes me as massively better for the server and most players (ie. not just the top guilds, and not just the RnF-dwellers).


There are a lot of potential issues in setting up a rotation, I only mentioned a few. Sure it's nice to be able to just push that off on the staff and say "hey you figure this out" But It's not a good defense on your position on the issue. If you can't think of simple ways to deal with them then idk why the staff would or should either.

No matter what you do some people are not going to be able to see all the raid content they want to see. You are going to have to create a strict set of rules about how to stay or get on the rotation, and some people will fail. So instead of being able to team with a few other guilds and get some kills they just need to wait until they can reapply to the rotation? SOMEONE has to figure out how long they're locked out and when they can reapply...even if its not you. And you are kidding yourself if you think these decisions wouldn't come, at some level, from other players. What do you expect the staff to observe every guilds raids and make sure they meet every requirement? No, other guilds will be watching and reporting what's going on to the staff. You'll have the same frapsing bullshit you have now, except the result will likely be a complete lockout from the content when the neckbeards win.

[Champion_Standing]

Serious question tho Loramin. What is it about the current situation that makes you feel like you or people you are concerned about have absolutely no chance at contesting ToV or top end content? I really don't see why a guild that had a capable force would opt to NOT contest simply because they have to contest it. Is it really just a matter of wanting to make the raid scene a 0 competition game? Or have you really found that you get trained and rule lawyered out of every mob you've ever tried to get?

I like making fun of the raiders in rnf, but I've spent plenty of time with them in game. I was there on the first contested inny on this server and I was in ToV for the last repops so I have a mildly relevant perspective on it. Today I really don't think the scene is as horrible as the forums or other social media around P99 makes it out to be. It's actually boringly civil most of the time at this point. If you don't consider getting loot to be the sole indicator of civility at least.

[loramin]

Serious question tho Loramin. What is it about the current situation that makes you feel like you or people you are concerned about have absolutely no chance at contesting ToV or top end content? I really don't see why a guild that had a capable force would opt to NOT contest simply because they have to contest it. Is it really just a matter of wanting to make the raid scene a 0 competition game? Or have you really found that you get trained and rule lawyered out of every mob you've ever tried to get?

I like making fun of the raiders in rnf, but I've spent plenty of time with them in game. I was there on the first contested inny on this server and I was in ToV for the last repops so I have a mildly relevant perspective on it. Today I really don't think the scene is as horrible as the forums or other social media around P99 makes it out to be. It's actually boringly civil most of the time at this point. If you don't consider getting loot to be the sole indicator of civility at least.

Ok, let's start at the end: you and I are both"old timers", so we both remember the TMO days, and everything that has happened since. There is no doubt in my mind that the current P99 raid scene is definitely one of the best in the server's history. Depending on your preferences maybe the Class C/R era was better, maybe it wasn't, but I think all reasonable people would agree that putting that era aside, raiding now is better than it's ever been ...

... but even so that's a pretty low bar. Before we had one guild that could "compete" (though as we all know, there wasn't all that much "competition" in that era ... although there was some). Now we have a few, and objectively those few guilds comprise more players than TMO did. Thus, there is greater access (more players get to experience) EQ raid content.

What I'm arguing is, why not take it further, and change things so even more people can play? If going from TMO (100 players, made-up number) to Core/Aftermath/AG (250 players, again made-up) was good (and just about everyone will say it was), why isn't going from 250 to 500, or 1000 players good?

If all those people are of the appropriate level, are appropriately geared, and are willing to learn (you can't require raid knowledge; new guilds won't magically be able to take say Yelinak out without practice), why add artificial constraints (ie. P99 raid "competition", which for like the billionth time has nothing to do with the actual game of Everquest) to prevent them from experiencing classic EverQuest content, on a server dedicated to that proposition?

Yes, the alternative is sharing. Yes sharing means less for the people currently getting everything. No, I don't see that as a bad thing. We went from bad competition (clickfests) on Shady Goblin and Scout, to a sharing system (rolls), and it's worked great. No one wants to go back.

So look it's not about whether I can "compete", or whether my current guild can "compete": I'm questioning the competition itself. It's unclassic and it artificially limits server content to a smaller subset of players. Rotations make that content available to more people: they let more people experience classic EverQuest. That's what this server is about.

And as for all the GM hardships you're listing, you're ignoring the fact that: A) the staff themselves "pre-released" a rotation system! and B) as I mentioned earlier, a lot of the work in a rotation system could absolutely be shifted to the players.

Let's say there's a gatekeeper mob a guild needs to defeat to join the rotation. You could make a staff member waste time observing, or you could say "whoever has ToV this week is obligated to send someone to observe new guilds wanting to break into the rotation; they have to show up, watch, and if the guild beats the mob they have to update the wiki, send the staff a PM, or do whatever it takes to elevate the new guild into the rotation." If that guild doesn't, they lose their next ToV rotation (which would require GM time, but not much and it should be pretty rare since no one will want to lose ToV), and next week's guild will verify.

That's just one very simple example of how the staff could design a system that makes less work for them. But let's not miss the forest from the trees here: while a rotation would require staff effort, so does the current raid scene. As Omni pointed out way back at the start of this thread, the staff is having difficulty supporting even that. There is absolutely no reason to believe that a properly implemented rotation system would have to mean more work for the staff: it absolutely could mean less.

[Ripqozko]

Ok, let's start at the end: you and I are both"old timers", so we both remember the TMO days, and everything that has happened since. There is no doubt in my mind that the current P99 raid scene is definitely one of the best in the server's history. Depending on your preferences maybe the Class C/R era was better, maybe it wasn't, but I think all reasonable people would agree that putting that era aside, raiding now is better than it's ever been ...

... but even so that's a pretty low bar. Before we had one guild that could "compete" (though as we all know, there wasn't all that much "competition" in that era ... although there was some). Now we have a few, and objectively those few guilds comprise more players than TMO did. Thus, there is greater access (more players get to experience) EQ raid content.

What I'm arguing is, why not take it further, and change things so even more people can play? If going from TMO (100 players, made-up number) to Core/Aftermath/AG (250 players, again made-up) was good (and just about everyone will say it was), why isn't going from 250 to 500, or 1000 players good?

If all those people are of the appropriate level, are appropriately geared, and are willing to learn (you can't require raid knowledge; new guilds won't magically be able to take say Yelinak out without practice), why add artificial constraints (ie. P99 raid "competition", which for like the billionth time has nothing to do with the actual game of Everquest) to prevent them from experiencing classic EverQuest content, on a server dedicated to that proposition?

Yes, the alternative is sharing. Yes sharing means less for the people currently getting everything. No, I don't see that as a bad thing. We went from bad competition (clickfests) on Shady Goblin and Scout, to a sharing system (rolls), and it's worked great. No one wants to go back.

So look it's not about whether I can "compete", or whether my current guild can "compete": I'm questioning the competition itself. It's unclassic and it artificially limits server content to a smaller subset of players. Rotations make that content available to more people: they let more people experience classic EverQuest. That's what this server is about.

And as for all the GM hardships you're listing, you're ignoring the fact that: A) the staff themselves "pre-released" a rotation system! and B) as I mentioned earlier, a lot of the work in a rotation system could absolutely be shifted to the players.

Let's say there's a gatekeeper mob a guild needs to defeat to join the rotation. You could make a staff member waste time observing, or you could say "whoever has ToV this week is obligated to send someone to observe new guilds wanting to break into the rotation; they have to show up, watch, and if the guild beats the mob they have to update the wiki, send the staff a PM, or do whatever it takes to elevate the new guild into the rotation." If that guild doesn't, they lose their next ToV rotation (which would require GM time, but not much and it should be pretty rare since no one will want to lose ToV), and next week's guild will verify.

That's just one very simple example of how the staff could design a system that makes less work for them. But let's not miss the forest from the trees here: while a rotation would require staff effort, so does the current raid scene. As Omni pointed out way back at the start of this thread, the staff is having difficulty supporting even that. There is absolutely no reason to believe that a properly implemented rotation system would have to mean more work for the staff: it absolutely could mean less.

All I hear is yadda yadda I'm gonna pretend it's for the greater good so I can get my freebie pixels. For the children! Sorry you don't get raid.

[Pyrrhica]

What happened to this guy?



Did he cure the server of cancer?

I have long wondered who the author was behind this masterpiece. Kim Jong would have a hard time finding a propagandist this good. Can only hope he has received sufficient deprogramming to returm to a normal and fulfilling life on the outside.

[Mead]

If all Loramin and his pals want it is to experience raid content and no pixels, AM can just let them tag along every week. Then they can get the full experience and we can stop these threads.

[BlownAway]

Good Competition there in TOV so far tonight boys! 100+ person kills VS NO ONE AT ALL! We really are starting to come around to all your "the competition is the fun part"

[Legidias]

Tag along? All you have to do is zone into ToV and hide behind a brazier for 2 hours.

[Hibbs]

Tag along? All you have to do is zone into ToV and hide behind a brazier for 2 hours.

LOL

[aaezil]

tagging along on a raid where a zerg guild of 300 lawn mowers down mobs in the most un-classic way imaginable is probably the worst thing i could ever imagine

[tyrant49333]

Alot of whiners here who haven't put in the work to learn end game strats, don't practice to be competitive, don't put in the effort to track or FTE, don't farm the appropriate raid items to be competitive, don't study the success and failure of other guilds strategies, don't fraps and review their own mistakes, want to get free welfare pixels. Bunch of Bernie Sanders fans we got here

[Legidias]

So you're describing the 175/190 people in ToV who got called in and sit at ent while 5 people go out to do all the things you're saying every end game raider does?????

Dem end game 'hide behind the brazier while 5 guys pull a dragon to us' strats though. Really needs a lot of practice to wake up at 4 am and hit a couple buttons. So much competition to crouch walk past the other 50 people into a 1 sq foot space.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Alot of whiners here who haven't put in the work to learn end game strats, don't practice to be competitive, don't put in the effort to track or FTE, don't farm the appropriate raid items to be competitive, don't study the success and failure of other guilds strategies, don't fraps and review their own mistakes, want to get free welfare pixels. Bunch of Bernie Sanders fans we got here

In a 100-person raid, there are probably about 20 people who actually do that, and 80 others who just log in, get to the zone, stand at the zone-in, and wait to be told to press attack or cast their spells, and in what order... so do those 80 earn their loot or are they just riding coattails? Lets be real now.

[Baylan295]

Alot of whiners here who haven't put in the work to learn end game strats, don't practice to be competitive, don't put in the effort to track or FTE, don't farm the appropriate raid items to be competitive, don't study the success and failure of other guilds strategies, don't fraps and review their own mistakes, want to get free welfare pixels. Bunch of Bernie Sanders fans we got here

The false assumption by you and most everyone in the top tier endgame raiding is that pixels should be earned in the manner you’re describing.

Fundamentally, AM pushes the envelope and rules more than any other guild. In the absence of a real GM to actually draw the line on rules interpretations, this will only get worse.

Just ask AG’s leadership about it.

[JayDee]

Remove recharging from the game and root ToV mobs. It really is that simple

[Mead]

In a 100-person raid, there are probably about 20 people who actually do that, and 80 others who just log in, get to the zone, stand at the zone-in, and wait to be told to press attack or cast their spells, and in what order... so do those 80 earn their loot or are they just riding coattails? Lets be real now.

The false assumption by you and most everyone in the top tier endgame raiding is that pixels should be earned in the manner you’re describing.

Fundamentally, AM pushes the envelope and rules more than any other guild. In the absence of a real GM to actually draw the line on rules interpretations, this will only get worse.

Just ask AG’s leadership about it.

You can try to twist it any way you want but he's right. You guys want free pixels, and hopefully are never going to get them. Be happy with the mom and pop guild targets you can acquire or put in more work.

[Rygar]

Remove recharging from the game and root ToV mobs. It really is that simple

This guy gets it.

Although I'd say call of the zero be best on all velious end game + VP dragons. Delay initial summon by something like 2-3 ticks to allow for pulling to camp, but then it's on.

[Dugface]

How much are people actually enjoying these 350 people lag-infested sprints to Kael, fear and ToV? Of course you do probably get a good rush when you actually get the mob. It would be pretty nice if you could enjoy it at the same time without getting another raid force pulling another boss to within 5 metres of you.

What would a potential rotation look like?

[Dugface]

What would a potential rotation look like?
NToV, WToV, VP, Fear. Crushbone? Places where there's a decent concentration of bosses. Kael is tricky with the different respawn timers.

A time limit of max. 24 h after 1st respawn to clear before another force can come in and take.

[Heebs13]

This guy gets it.

Although I'd say call of the zero be best on all velious end game + VP dragons. Delay initial summon by something like 2-3 ticks to allow for pulling to camp, but then it's on.

Yeah permarooting the bosses causes problems with push to interrupt and such. Making them summon at 100% is still classic and solves the stupid trains to entrance without causing the push problem.

[Phenyo]

who are omni

[Baylan295]

The false assumption by you and most everyone in the top tier endgame raiding is that pixels should be earned in the manner you’re describing.

Fundamentally, AM pushes the envelope and rules more than any other guild. In the absence of a real GM to actually draw the line on rules interpretations, this will only get worse.

Just ask AG’s leadership about it.

Confirmed, AM benevolent for letting KT sit up at 530 am edt so our guy could do his Yeli head turn in.

[Phenyo]

Small observation then im out - You do know nobody CotH ducks right?

Cloki's original point is valid in that the burden of proof needed for "cheating" is insane. However if you look at the targets in ToV, or really anywhere now, nobody is bending rules or training on purpose. The main reasons others are getting mobs and not your guild is the bigger guildss have more people who can contest longer.

Advice, not that anyone wants to hear it, level 2 coth mages to 55 and 3 clerics to 40 (for CH), contest 2 hours of whatever mob you'd like, and see how ya do.

Can u not post sensible sound advice its not appropriate thanks

[Champion_Standing]

So look it's not about whether I can "compete", or whether my current guild can "compete": I'm questioning the competition itself. It's unclassic and it artificially limits server content to a smaller subset of players. Rotations make that content available to more people: they let more people experience classic EverQuest. That's what this server is about.


Now this is the main issue I take with the rotation system. Not that I think it's an inherently bad or awful goal, but i don't think it fits with EQ. We could argue this logic with every desirable camp in the game. Why should Tommy Tentwinks get to farm plat all day long when poor Jimmy the elf can't even buy his spells? Why should anyone be allowed to farm MQ pieces for plat when someone just wants the classic experience of getting their epic? Do I think it would be nice for Jimmy to get a chance to farm some plat? Sure do, but does that mean I want the GMs coming along and kicking people out of camps so he can do it? Absolutely not.

We can't ONLY apply this philosophy to the best mobs in the game, that kind of seems silly to me. Most of the active players at any given moment are not affected by what's going on in ToV. Honestly, people who are just dying want to get into ToV but just can't simply because of the raid scene are probably a very small minority. The more casual players are just concerned about maxing out int/wis or getting some decent weapons to do acceptable DPS etc etc. They aren't stressing out about AM, AG and Core are getting too many dragons, they're stressing out cuz they can never get the sisters camp in lfay or because they can't log in after work and get into a group without waiting on a list.

The "competition" exists at every level in EQ, from lvl 10 solo camps to lvl 60 raid zones. With raid mobs you actually have a better shot against nolifers than you do with almost all desirable camps, because you can go for that FTE and get the kill if you can muster a force to do it. Instead of just waiting in line behind some unemployed bastard who sits on EQ for 19 hours a day.

The fact is that if a rotation is implemented in ToV it has absolutely nothing to do with sharing or giving players a chance to experience classic EQ. It's just because the staff is sick of the petitionquesting. Something that could be drastically reduced if actual punishments were handed out to leaders of guilds that can't seem to assemble a force that follows the rules or abides by the agreements they enter.

[Fammaden]

Yeah permarooting the bosses causes problems with push to interrupt and such. Making them summon at 100% is still classic and solves the stupid trains to entrance without causing the push problem.

Well push to interrupt isn't classic either right? And wasn't it implied that it will get nerfed with the second half of the Chardok 2.0 patch also?

And on the topic of things that will never happen with the recharge system, it would be neat if charges were soulbound. So once you have clicked a mallet, reaper, soufire, idol that's the only time your character will ever be able to use it in his life. Preserves the "o shit button" nature of the items and makes recharging pointless. Just a random daydream there, obviously not a serious suggestion of something that will ever happen.

[aaezil]

Now this is the main issue I take with the rotation system. Not that I think it's an inherently bad or awful goal, but i don't think it fits with EQ. We could argue this logic with every desirable camp in the game. Why should Tommy Tentwinks get to farm plat all day long when poor Jimmy the elf can't even buy his spells? Why should anyone be allowed to farm MQ pieces for plat when someone just wants the classic experience of getting their epic? Do I think it would be nice for Jimmy to get a chance to farm some plat? Sure do, but does that mean I want the GMs coming along and kicking people out of camps so he can do it? Absolutely not.

We can't ONLY apply this philosophy to the best mobs in the game, that kind of seems silly to me. Most of the active players at any given moment are not affected by what's going on in ToV. Honestly, people who are just dying want to get into ToV but just can't simply because of the raid scene are probably a very small minority. The more casual players are just concerned about maxing out int/wis or getting some decent weapons to do acceptable DPS etc etc. They aren't stressing out about AM, AG and Core are getting too many dragons, they're stressing out cuz they can never get the sisters camp in lfay or because they can't log in after work and get into a group without waiting on a list.

The "competition" exists at every level in EQ, from lvl 10 solo camps to lvl 60 raid zones. With raid mobs you actually have a better shot against nolifers than you do with almost all desirable camps, because you can go for that FTE and get the kill if you can muster a force to do it. Instead of just waiting in line behind some unemployed bastard who sits on EQ for 19 hours a day.

The fact is that if a rotation is implemented in ToV it has absolutely nothing to do with sharing or giving players a chance to experience classic EQ. It's just because the staff is sick of the petitionquesting. Something that could be drastically reduced if actual punishments were handed out to leaders of guilds that can't seem to assemble a force that follows the rules or abides by the agreements they enter.

sounds a lot like AM should have been disbanded by staff a long long time ago then!

[smitho1984]

Oh if only we could cap Guild numbers and restrict Co-raids to Tunare/AoW....

[destrozi]

BiS loot in ToV being limited to the few "uber" guilds is completely classic. The current rules replicate the nature of classic everquest -- people who are willing to put in the time and effort PLUS join a raid guild get access to the best loot in the game.

If you want to experience the endgame, you should join a guild that has the infrastructure to contest the endgame. This was no different back in 1999.

I would also argue that acquiring raid loot these days is much easier than it was back 20 years ago. AG has a very lenient raid attendance policy for bidding DKP, plus I think AM has a 10% raid attendance policy for bidding? These thresholds are within reach of even a casual player. More players have access to more loot in the current iteration of P99.

However, the thesis of this thread seems to be "More _guilds_ should have access to more loot." This is so completely non classic, uber guilds have always dominated the raid scene.

[YendorLootmonkey]

You can try to twist it any way you want but he's right. You guys want free pixels, and hopefully are never going to get them. Be happy with the mom and pop guild targets you can acquire or put in more work.

Nice re-direct.

This is the mantra of the hardcore: "You are hopefully never going to get free pixels. Nevermind the fact that about 80% of our raid force pretty much gets free pixels. Because, uh, time and effort."

Again, what work is 80% of the raid force doing besides getting to a zone and pushing buttons when told? Please explain how they are "putting in the work to get loot"? Oh, that's right... you can't, as many times as you would love to dismiss the hypocrisy pointed out here.

I will concede knowing how the raid encounter works and communicating what needs to be done and when, tracking, FTE/pulling, and camping raid ez-mode trinkets can all be considered work. I gaurantee not everyone in the raid is putting in that work. Yet every warm body there earns DKP to bid on loot that they essentially got for showing up and pressing some buttons.

But keep kidding yourself.

[YendorLootmonkey]

BiS loot in ToV being limited to the few "uber" guilds is completely classic. The current rules replicate the nature of classic everquest -- people who are willing to put in the time and effort PLUS join a raid guild get access to the best loot in the game.

If you want to experience the endgame, you should join a guild that has the infrastructure to contest the endgame. This was no different back in 1999.

I would also argue that acquiring raid loot these days is much easier than it was back 20 years ago. AG has a very lenient raid attendance policy for bidding DKP, plus I think AM has a 10% raid attendance policy for bidding? These thresholds are within reach of even a casual player. More players have access to more loot in the current iteration of P99.

However, the thesis of this thread seems to be "More _guilds_ should have access to more loot." This is so completely non classic, uber guilds have always dominated the raid scene.

Part of "classic" is that uber guilds eventually moved on from what we consider to be classic content, freeing it up for other guilds, which is not the case here and therefore ironically not classic. They did not compete for classic content in perpetuity.

[destrozi]

Part of "classic" is that uber guilds eventually moved on from what we consider to be classic content, freeing it up for other guilds, which is not the case here and therefore ironically not classic. They did not compete for classic content in perpetuity.

True, but irrelevant.

[loramin]

We could argue this logic with every desirable camp in the game. Why should Tommy Tentwinks get to farm plat all day long when poor Jimmy the elf can't even buy his spells?

I see this as you basically admitting you've lost the argument, that rotations are better for the server, and the only way you can win it back is to change the argument to somehow be about Tommy Tentwinks. Please don't: we're talking about raid encounters only here, and if you can't see a meaningful difference between raid encounters and the rest of the game then I think you're being deliberately obtuse. In other words:

We can't ONLY apply this philosophy to the best mobs in the game, that kind of seems silly to me.

Yes, we absolutely can: the server has a long history of different rules/philosophy for raiders! Like, pretty much the entire history of the server there's been different raid rules (certainly as long as I've been here). For that entire time you've never cared that raids are different from normal play, and now all of the sudden you do?

They aren't stressing out about AM, AG and Core are getting too many dragons, they're stressing out cuz they can never get the sisters camp in lfay or because they can't log in after work and get into a group without waiting on a list.

Now you're ignoring what I've said. I made it very clear that there are three groups of players on this server. Not two (hard-working top-end guilds and lazy everyone else), but three (people who can raid dragons and play P99's non-EQ artificial raid game well, people who can raid dragons and don't or won't, and people who can't raid dragons). Stop trying to make this about people who can't raid dragons.

The "competition" exists at every level in EQ, from lvl 10 solo camps to lvl 60 raid zones.

Yeah, we have a brutal PvP competition for scout right? And when someone wants someone else's camp, they duke it out to see who competes better for the camp?

No? We have a server with rules designed to share content between players :eek:

The fact is that if a rotation is implemented in ToV it has absolutely nothing to do with sharing or giving players a chance to experience classic EQ.
Says you, with no basis whatsoever. Somehow I think all the players that would get to see dragons for the first time on this server would disagree.

[loramin]

True, but irrelevant.

How so? Our server has been in Velious for three-plus years now. On live in that timeframe they released Luclin, LoY, PoP, LDoN, and GoD. Do you really think second or third tier guilds, let alone top-end ones, gave a crap about Velious even as early as PoP (let alone in GoD)?

I played on live for years, but I'd quit and gone to WoW before Bristlebane had even gotten to the Velious-adjusted age of Blue; if you count from the beginning and include the seven years of Kunark, plus the Vanilla time before that, we'd be past the Veil of Alaris expansion! Who here even knows what that is?

But yeah, let's completely ignore all that and talk about how "classic" the current raid scene is :rolleyes:

[Champion_Standing]

Nice re-direct.

This is the mantra of the hardcore: "You are hopefully never going to get free pixels. Nevermind the fact that about 80% of our raid force pretty much gets free pixels. Because, uh, time and effort."

Again, what work is 80% of the raid force doing besides getting to a zone and pushing buttons when told? Please explain how they are "putting in the work to get loot"? Oh, that's right... you can't, as many times as you would love to dismiss the hypocrisy pointed out here.

I will concede knowing how the raid encounter works and communicating what needs to be done and when, tracking, FTE/pulling, and camping raid ez-mode trinkets can all be considered work. I gaurantee not everyone in the raid is putting in that work. Yet every warm body there earns DKP to bid on loot that they essentially got for showing up and pressing some buttons.

But keep kidding yourself.

That raid force is the direct result of successful leadership and key members such as pullers, trackers etc. You don't get 100 warm bodies if you can't pull, don't track or have no idea what you're doing in general. The people who do put in a ton of time are rewarded by attracting more members and being able to gather huge force to down the mobs they do track and FTE. They reward those member with DKP and items. Are they all playing at 100%? No, but that's irrelevant. They've become a cog in the loot machine and that's all they need to do.

[enjchanter]

Generally trackers / FTE'ers get almost / up to 1 dragon kill per hour so warm bodies while getting paid for participation are required but are also paid accordingly. The people who carry the team have essentially a much higher pay grade and are rewarded appropriately.

Yes both are required, no it's not an even split of effort, but it's also not an even split of dkp. So arguement not valid

[loramin]

That raid force is the direct result of successful leadership and key members such as pullers, trackers etc. You don't get 100 warm bodies if you can't pull, don't track or have no idea what you're doing in general. The people who do put in a ton of time are rewarded by attracting more members and being able to gather huge force to down the mobs they do track and FTE. They reward those member with DKP and items. Are they all playing at 100%? No, but that's irrelevant. They've become a cog in the loot machine and that's all they need to do.

Make up your mind: is this about being able to kill dragons, or is this about playing the non-EQ "competition" game of staring at walls and doing monotonous actions repeatedly for extended periods of time?

When you're arguing against rotations you like to pretend the "competition" game is all that matters. But when you're defending the 90% that don't compete, suddenly all that matters is the organizational effort of killing dragons.

It's ok, you can be swayed by my oh-so-persuasive arguments :) You can admit that you agree, that EverQuest, that game we all love so much, is about killing dragons, and is not about "competing" in inane ways! Come to the dark light side Champion!

[YendorLootmonkey]

That raid force is the direct result of successful leadership and key members such as pullers, trackers etc. You don't get 100 warm bodies if you can't pull, don't track or have no idea what you're doing in general. The people who do put in a ton of time are rewarded by attracting more members and being able to gather huge force to down the mobs they do track and FTE. They reward those member with DKP and items. Are they all playing at 100%? No, but that's irrelevant. They've become a cog in the loot machine and that's all they need to do.

Completely relevant.

We are told time and time again that if you don't put in (some neckbeard-defined ridiculous amount of "video game work") time/effort, you don't deserve loot.

Yet all of your self-admitted "cogs in the loot machine" are somehow deserving of loot, despite not putting in the aforementioned amount of time/effort. Again, they show up and push buttons.

One might easily show that the average player in a more casual guild actually puts more time/effort contributing to their guild's success than 50 or 60 of your cogs.

So the precept that "you put in the work, you deserve loot" fails at its most fundamental definition, and it becomes truly "i just get off on denying other people from pixels because i'm an e-bully."

Let's call it for what it is and stop trying to sugarcoat.

[Artaenc]

Most AM posters have it in their sig because why keep your Lambo in the garage where nobody can see it?I would never deprive anyone from seeing my pride and joy that I see as a Lamborghini.

https://i.imgur.com/vX2B6NP.jpg

[Aadill]

I would never deprive anyone from seeing my pride and joy that I see as a Lamborghini.

https://i.imgur.com/vX2B6NP.jpg

Frankly, that's a majestic af car and I would treat that car with far more love and respect than for any of you elf nerds.

[destrozi]

How is the existence of later expansions / games at all relevant on a Velious time locked server?

We are in a Groundhog Day type of scenario where we retain knowledge but relive the same experiences. Later games are irrelevant, later expansions are irrelevant. People come here to experience that time locked nostalgia. That is the whole point of the server.

Loot is distributed on this server to the people that put in the most effort to acquire that loot -- EXACTLY like the snapshot of live this server replicates from 2001.

[Fammaden]

How is the existence of later expansions / games at all relevant on a Velious time locked server?

We are in a Groundhog Day type of scenario where we retain knowledge but relive the same experiences. Later games are irrelevant, later expansions are irrelevant. People come here to experience that time locked nostalgia. That is the whole point of the server.

Loot is distributed on this server to the people that put in the most effort to acquire that loot -- EXACTLY like the snapshot of live this server replicates from 2001.

300 people waiting at the Fear portal or the WL zone line in Kael or the zone in of ToV for a boss to pop/get pulled isn't really an accurate snapshot at all. At any given time there were one or two guilds on many servers that could even imagine trying that stuff, and the rest got their hands on it after the bigger guilds had moved on to the new expansion.

For severs with huge populations, there tended to be player agreement rotations so each uber guild got something instead of fighting and wiping and possibly getting nothing. So none of this is EXACTLY a snapshot of anything that happened in these zones on live during Velious.

Then again back then there was 24/7 volunteer guide service plus a paid GM for each server who would come make raid leaders roll for dragon kill rights or just despawn the damn thing if people were going full on neckbeard. Which brings us back again to the actual point of the Omni post, if we don't have sufficient staff here to enforce raid rules, shouldn't the rules be modified or in the extreme scenario just done away with?

[Champion_Standing]

Says you, with no basis whatsoever. Somehow I think all the players that would get to see dragons for the first time on this server would disagree.

Except that the staff literally said this is why they would implement rotations.

The point is that relevant content is entirely subjective. You wouldn't like being told that you can only go to your favorite zone once every 6 weeks anymore than the raiders like the suggestion of only going to ToV once every 6 weeks. When you aren't raiding, this is the only reasonable comparison.

These classes of players you've thought up simply don't exist in significant numbers on this server. I'm not buying for one second that there's guilds full of appropriately geared wannabe raiders that just refuse to contest in the current system and are desperately waiting around for the staff to save them. People pushing for rotations are people who have determined on their own that they can't be successful in the current system and they've made the decision to not get involved.

I'm not arguing against different rule sets for raid mobs, I dunno where you got that from. I'm saying that we can take this "fairness" mantra to every level of the game. And the only time people will reject it is when it negatively impacts them. idk what you usually do in game, but I can bet you would not be throwing a party if the rules meant you get to do that much less often.

Player made agreements that the staff has agreed to enforce are not the same thing as the staff forcing a rule set or rotation.

Every player has a different perspective, different goals and different play styles. It isn't unreasonable to look at the game and player base as a whole to find equivalencies. I'm not going to stick to your "three kinds of players" because that's just not the reality of the server.

[Champion_Standing]

Make up your mind: is this about being able to kill dragons, or is this about playing the non-EQ "competition" game of staring at walls and doing monotonous actions repeatedly for extended periods of time?

When you're arguing against rotations you like to pretend the "competition" game is all that matters. But when you're defending the 90% that don't compete, suddenly all that matters is the organizational effort of killing dragons.

It's ok, you can be swayed by my oh-so-persuasive arguments :) You can admit that you agree, that EverQuest, that game we all love so much, is about killing dragons, and is not about "competing" in inane ways! Come to the dark light side Champion!

What?

[destrozi]

300 people waiting at the Fear portal or the WL zone line in Kael or the zone in of ToV for a boss to pop/get pulled isn't really an accurate snapshot at all. At any given time there were one or two guilds on many servers that could even imagine trying that stuff, and the rest got their hands on it after the bigger guilds had moved on to the new expansion.

For severs with huge populations, there tended to be player agreement rotations so each uber guild got something instead of fighting and wiping and possibly getting nothing. So none of this is EXACTLY a snapshot of anything that happened in these zones on live during Velious.

Then again back then there was 24/7 volunteer guide service plus a paid GM for each server who would come make raid leaders roll for dragon kill rights or just despawn the damn thing if people were going full on neckbeard. Which brings us back again to the actual point of the Omni post, if we don't have sufficient staff here to enforce raid rules, shouldn't the rules be modified or in the extreme scenario just done away with?

Omni is not an uber guild though. They are trying to argue the rules from the sideline. The current raid competition between AM / Core / AG is quite cordial these days.

[YendorLootmonkey]

How is the existence of later expansions / games at all relevant on a Velious time locked server?

We are in a Groundhog Day type of scenario where we retain knowledge but relive the same experiences. Later games are irrelevant, later expansions are irrelevant. People come here to experience that time locked nostalgia. That is the whole point of the server.

Loot is distributed on this server to the people that put in the most effort to acquire that loot -- EXACTLY like the snapshot of live this server replicates from 2001.

It creates conditions that aren't classic, nullifying any argument that the endgame raid scene here is classic.

That's without even mentioning 6? years of Kunark on P99, which would make a "snapshot of 2001" impossible to recreate here. And if you're talking about living in the Velious era for 4+ years or whatever it is, you can't liken anything to "a snapshot".

Classic Velious content was something guilds consumed and then moved on from, creating a vacuum for less hardcore guilds to come up and consume. And so on.

I know it's the entire basis of your agrument, but it was a flow, not a snapshot. Expanison. Flush. Expansion. Flush. P99 removed the flusher from the toilet of content and we've clogged it all up, and we're neck-deep in turds.

Unless you're advocating guilds who have been farming NTOV for 12 months get characters with NTOV loot on them deleted to simulate moving on to bleeding edge Luclin content as an artificial flush to get the flow moving again.

On Live, I didn't experience NTOV content until Luclin. That's what it took for the Xegony uber guilds to stop monopolizing the content before my guild could consume that content. That flow that is inherently classic is artificially prohibited from taking place here, so there can be no comparison.

[Hotel]

Loramin, your lack of humility regarding this matter is appalling.

I'll reiterate a point that I think is plain as day the more you post these rants ('debates'): YOU ARE NOT AS SMART AS YOU THINK YOU ARE

[loramin]

Loramin, your lack of humility regarding this matter is appalling.

I'll reiterate a point that I think is plain as day the more you post these rants ('debates'): YOU ARE NOT AS SMART AS YOU THINK YOU ARE

Great defense of the current raid system. Really shows your own intelligence.

[arsenalpow]

Complaining about how things are run on this server has literally never worked. Ever. There’s a reason why guilds leave en masse. This isn’t a new phenomenon.

[loramin]

What?

I thought I was clear, but I'll try again. When you (and not just you, many in this thread) are in "defend P99 competition" mode you're all about how "competition" is what's important, and it doesn't even matter about organizing people to kill dragons. "We've been doing this for year, anyone can kill dragons, that's the easy part, the hard part is competing!" "The pixels themselves don't even matter, it's all about the exclusivity!" That, more or less, is the argument.

But then when someone points out that hey, the vast majority of your guild doesn't "compete", well then suddenly what matters is the work of assembling all those people, because it's hard, and getting them to kill a dragon, because it's hard, and allocating loot fairly, because it's hard. As soon as anyone points out most of the guild doesn't "earn" their loot through competition, well then all those people do earn it, by playing EverQuest, and never mind that they don't compete.

You can't have it both ways. Either competition makes you deserve loot, and there's a hole in your argument that most of the guild getting the loot doesn't actually deserve it, or killing the dragon makes you deserve loot, in which case the "competition" part isn't actually what we're all here to play.

But you can't have it both ways: you can't claim top-end guilds deserve dragons and no one else does because they compete, when most of them don't actually compete.

[destrozi]

It creates conditions that aren't classic, nullifying any argument that the endgame raid scene here is classic.

That's without even mentioning 6? years of Kunark on P99, which would make a "snapshot of 2001" impossible to recreate here. And if you're talking about living in the Velious era for 4+ years or whatever it is, you can't liken anything to "a snapshot".

Classic Velious content was something guilds consumed and then moved on from, creating a vacuum for less hardcore guilds to come up and consume. And so on.

I know it's the entire basis of your agrument, but it was a flow, not a snapshot. Expanison. Flush. Expansion. Flush. P99 removed the flusher from the toilet of content and we've clogged it all up, and we're neck-deep in turds.

Unless you're advocating guilds who have been farming NTOV for 12 months get characters with NTOV loot on them deleted to simulate moving on to bleeding edge Luclin content as an artificial flush to get the flow moving again.

On Live, I didn't experience NTOV content until Luclin. That's what it took for the Xegony uber guilds to stop monopolizing the content before my guild could consume that content. That flow that is inherently classic is artificially prohibited from taking place here, so there can be no comparison.

You are misunderstanding me. The GMs have created a snapshot of how the server itself was, with added raid rules that level the play field a bit. I'm not talking about how geared certain people are or how many people might be online at any given time. The snapshot is the sandbox given to players to play in.

The server as a whole is nothing like 2001 because of all the knowledge and gear gained in the lifetime of the server. But that's going to happen. The game has hard forked from its predecessor. This is inevitable. Trying to control the divergence is impossible.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Loramin, your lack of humility regarding this matter is appalling.

As opposed to the exemplary humility demonstrated by those on the other side of this discussion:

You guys want free pixels, and hopefully are never going to get them. Be happy with the mom and pop guild targets you can acquire or put in more work.

All I hear is yadda yadda I'm gonna pretend it's for the greater good so I can get my freebie pixels. For the children! Sorry you don't get raid.

Yes, a real class act in humility for sure.

Don't worry, unless you've designated the bronze armor I collect in Mistmoore to gift to new players leveling up in Gfay as your pixels too, you don't have to worry about me taking any of your precious pixels. Both guilds I have been a part of no longer exist on this server due to the toxic raid scene.

Have no concern. I know my place on the loot/raid totem pole that has been assigned to me by the neckbeard society here based on my work-life balance. And just in case I forgot, I know I can always come here to have it rubbed in my face. :)

[Champion_Standing]

I thought I was clear, but I'll try again. When you (and not just you, many in this thread) are in "defend P99 competition" mode you're all about how "competition" is what's important, and it doesn't even matter about organizing people to kill dragons. "We've been doing this for year, anyone can kill dragons, that's the easy part, the hard part is competing!" "The pixels themselves don't even matter, it's all about the exclusivity!" That, more or less, is the argument.

But then when someone points out that hey, the vast majority of your guild doesn't "compete", well then suddenly what matters is the work of assembling all those people, because it's hard, and getting them to kill a dragon, because it's hard, and allocating loot fairly, because it's hard. As soon as anyone points out most of the guild doesn't "earn" their loot through competition, well then all those people do earn it, by playing EverQuest, and never mind that they don't compete.

You can't have it both ways. Either competition makes you deserve loot, and there's a hole in your argument that most of the guild getting the loot doesn't actually deserve it, or killing the dragon makes you deserve loot, in which case the "competition" part isn't actually what we're all here to play.

But you can't have it both ways: you can't claim top-end guilds deserve dragons and no one else does because they compete, when most of them don't actually compete.


This is getting extremely convoluted and circuitous. I never said any of those things, at this point you're just arguing against what you think the mentality of most raiders on the server is. Not what I've actually said in this or other threads. I've ONLY pointed out the time investment by leadership and key members, I've never claimed that entire guilds work just as hard as they do. As a matter of fact I literally called them cogs in the loot machine.

A guild is a team, and the only people who should be concerned about team members not pulling their weight are the people in charge of and on that team. If the leadership and key members are willing to give them loot for showing up and doing whatever it is they need them to do, there's nothing illegitimate about that player getting loot. These players don't negate the time put in by the leadership or key member.

The end result of the teams efforts as a whole are what matter, not whether or not an outsider has determined that x amount of the players didn't work hard enough and thus aren't meeting the criteria for "competing" or "deserving" loot.