The Common Man's NToV Raid Rules Thread

[Juevento]

Starting this thread to give the non-Officer RnF enabled folks a chance to chime in with regards to the raiding situation in ToV. See this thread.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214522

My 2 Cents, Pint and Detoxx are whiny cry babies who can't think outside the box, Chest is really bad at making arguments, Eratani doesn't have a clue, Hoku is smart for staying above the riffraff.

Also, just legalize training in ToV and problem is solved. The situation will take care of itself.

[dafier]

THANK YOU! OMG!

[JboxCSU]

That thread is the best RnF going on right now. I get a chubby every time someone posts in it.

[dafier]

What is there to argue? Honestly I only see....2 in that thread causing the arguing, and it's supposed to be a thread about fixing a 'problem' that doesn't seem to be getting fixed.

Also, there are people bitching about breaking rules that are/have been in place for a long time and MAJOR finger pointing, yet for some odd reasons there are no mirrors around (hypocrites!).

How about this: Go suck some random bum off and savor the taste for a week. After, brush your teeth and come back to the thread with new found wisdom?

[Wizing]

We don't have this problem on red . TMO is recruiting on red atm and we welcome all and every blue player (you can box blue and red ) we currently raid all content ranging from classic threw velious . Apply today themysticalorder.net

[Oleris]

if training was legalized literally nothing would die.

The issue is that unles you have 3-4 mages parked at different parts in NTOV the only decent spot to kill stuff is around the corner of the steps. We had some issues there when rampage and forsaken/asgard both tried pulling to this step. We pulled a dragon at the same time rampage pulled trash mobs. The result was both of us wiping. If someone pulls from e/w/zone line it will fuck anyone in north steps. So, I can see a couple possible solutions.

1)Make the drakes not see invis (makes getting to POM a joke, makes pulls easier and makes north tov a joke).

2) add 1-2 more safe spots in north wing either by removing pathers in some spots. This is still an issue because you will need to stick rez a mage or spend at least an hour clearing trash mobs to get to this kill spot.

3) make dragons rooted or tethered. This will challenge people and will make it a race to FTE instead of monks playing rope-a-dope to try and get a clean pull out of 10 mobs.

[Damn]

We don't have this problem on red . TMO is recruiting on red atm and we welcome all and every blue player (you can box blue and red ) we currently raid all content ranging from classic threw velious . Apply today themysticalorder.net

You dont have this problem on red because tmo has to force lns everytime its in the same zone as another guild

go cuck some more loot to empire you spineless little worm

[maestrom]

Caveat: I don't raid here.

I raided pretty heavily on Live from Velious-PoP. I never went on raid that trained/kited trash away from raid targets before RZtWL, where we kited the adds that spawned.

I believe the FTE rule is largely to blame for the mess. On Nameless, the rule was "First in force". First guild to gather its raid force in a zone got to pick its target (North, West, HoT). This worked fantastically well for lots of reasons. Primarily, it forced guilds to prioritize their targets. If guild A is claiming NToV, then they can't also claim Tormax, or Statue. This let more guilds get more targets and eliminated the need to train trash around to tag targets.

I know why we have FTE. But it seems like with top guilds having 2-3 different raid forces of alts parked around the game, it essentially locks smaller guilds out of raiding. If Guild A is socking ToV North, and trak pops, they can camp over to their alts, FTE and kill it before a less coordinated guild can mobilize. They can do this without losing their shot at ToV north. With first in force, if Guild A wanted to go after Trak, they would have to disengage ToV north and lose their claim at North, which would let smaller guilds take Trak.

[Wizing]

We don't have this problem on red . TMO is recruiting on red atm and we welcome all and every blue player (you can box blue and red ) we currently raid all content ranging from classic threw velious . Apply today themysticalorder.net

[Juevento]

For the sake of simplification, the entity known as Forsaken/Asgard will be known as TMO.

Truth be told, I don't mind killing things in other wings. BDAs NToV mob kills have involved very clever pulls to safe locations that only we were occupying. Additionally any trains we started to move move out of the way we're done in a safe and responsible fashion. So I think out of wing kills are more tha doable in a non skeezy way. You just can't have dummies out doing pulls and stuff.

[simp403]

go cuck some more loot to empire you spineless little worm

It's only game. Why you heff to be mad?

Regarding the actual thread in the Raids section, at least nobody made a rape analogy this time.

[JboxCSU]

There is no good solution.

Best one I can dream up is limit 3 or so guilds a spawn cycle to race to mobs, on rotation.

Still has some of the same issues, but it's less of a clusterfuck than now.

[dafier]

Keep this in mind. Velious is going to be IT, there is no expansion after per P99 management. That's all folks!

[dafier]

For the sake of simplification, the entity known as Forsaken/Asgard will be known as TMO.

Truth be told, I don't mind killing things in other wings. BDAs NToV mob kills have involved very clever pulls to safe locations that only we were occupying. Additionally any trains we started to move move out of the way we're done in a safe and responsible fashion. So I think out of wing kills are more tha doable in a non skeezy way. You just can't have dummies out doing pulls and stuff.

In my opinion that's the problem. The other guilds like TMO have been pulling in a non safe and responsible fashion.

L2Pull?

[Juevento]

Regarding the actual thread in the Raids section, at least nobody made a rape analogy this time.

Yet.

[dafier]

I think you've lost your mind. To insinuate that it is not the responsibility of the person pulling a massive train, peeling a mob, dropping the train or sometimes even the mob, is just mind boggling. My mage would not have agroed any mobs had you not trained them all the way past our camp, flopped them and then failed the pull letting not only the train path back, but Ikatiar.

Try to use some common sense.

You mean if you wouldn't have moved to 'see' what's going on instead of staying AROUND THE CORNER WHERE IT WAS SAFE? Really?

[Mead]

TMO is bad. This isn't news to anyone. Dudes been doing the same shit and blaming everyone else except themselves. The only people they're fooling are themselves.

[Juevento]

The key thing about Detoxx's lunatic ravings is that; that wasn't BDAs train. We pulled the net hallway mobs to West ent and then saw Ikatiar pathing back FROM west and tried to grab him out of that mess. That was the FTE that Detoxx thinks was due to a BDA pull. I have no clue how or who pulled him initially to west. Prolly Taken.

[captnamazing]

pull mobs to wherever you want

[Heebo]

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ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS ROTATIONS?

Consider r99 today.

[jcr4990]

https://media.giphy.com/media/fwcGzF1l2cILe/giphy.gif

[simp403]

Tired of?

Consider r99 today.

It really is a refreshing change of pace. Instead, you get

pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras pras

with the occasional "bluebie" and "AoN"

[Stormfists]

This just in.

Juevento breaks down in public due to lack of pixels. Tears, so many tears.

Stay tuned.

[Colgate]

lol blue server raiding

ahahaha

[slappytwotoes]

Why would Rampage ever weigh in on that thread?!?

They're sitting up all alone near PoM killing what they please while the 6 peasant guilds are training each other over scraps.

Prolly LOLing their faces off

[dafier]

The posts I've read from some of these guild leaders, mainly speaking of Detoxx here, I do not understand how someone so stupid can lead anything.

Personally I think Forsaken members should save themselves from certain destruction and remove their guild name. Unless they are just as childish and disorganized as their leader, then stay.

[slappytwotoes]

What we need is a guild who will FTE without logic or fairness.

Poor Hyjal, ahead of his time.

[dafier]

Why would Rampage ever weigh in on that thread?!?

They're sitting up all alone near PoM killing what they please while the 6 peasant guilds are training each other over scraps.

Prolly LOLing their faces off

I don't think they're necessarily LOLing, but I am sure they aren't bothered with the disorganized R&F that's going on in that thread.

And, they are the only guild that is uncontested regarding top content. I have to admit, it is nice of them to team up and share the wealth. It is the only way any other guild is going to get AOW loot, right now.

It will change though. All things, in time.....all things, in time.

[Juevento]

This just in.

Juevento breaks down in public due to lack of pixels. Tears, so many tears.

Stay tuned.

Yeah that's it. I clearly care about pixels.

[Maner]

The posts I've read from some of these guild leaders, mainly speaking of Detoxx here, I do not understand how someone so stupid can lead anything.

Personally I think Forsaken members should save themselves from certain destruction and remove their guild name. Unless they are just as childish and disorganized as their leader, then stay.

I would much rather follow a leader who wipes on velk with 33 lol

[Maner]

I don't think they're necessarily LOLing, but I am sure they aren't bothered with the disorganized R&F that's going on in that thread.

And, they are the only guild that is uncontested regarding top content. I have to admit, it is nice of them to team up and share the wealth. It is the only way any other guild is going to get AOW loot, right now.

It will change though. All things, in time.....all things, in time.

You guys trained rampage twice while messing with iki that night as well. Nice try though

[Maner]

For the sake of simplification, the entity known as Forsaken/Asgard will be known as TMO.

Truth be told, I don't mind killing things in other wings. BDAs NToV mob kills have involved very clever pulls to safe locations that only we were occupying. Additionally any trains we started to move move out of the way we're done in a safe and responsible fashion. So I think out of wing kills are more tha doable in a non skeezy way. You just can't have dummies out doing pulls and stuff.

If this was actually the case there wouldn't have been a thread in the first place...

[Juevento]

You guys trained rampage twice while messing with iki that night as well. Nice try though

That's not true.

[Pokesan]

oh look bda trying to lawyer their way to more pixels

I am so surprised

[arsenalpow]

oh look bda trying to lawyer their way to more pixels

I am so surprised

you know us, always lawyering for pixels /eyeroll

[Pokesan]

you know us, always lawyering for pixels /eyeroll

[ArumTP]

This thread is full of BDA trying to justify training everyone in ToV without recourse for sweet pixels. Same as they do for Inny and trakanon

[Nibblewitz]

This thread is full of BDA trying to justify training everyone in ToV without recourse for sweet pixels. Same as they do for Inny and trakanon

This guy gets it. We are due for some BDA bashing, but then Juevento posted this lame ToV shit.

Fuck BDA

[Kodim]

No one should be able to enter North without a written permission from Rampage.

[Stormfists]

Yeah that's it. I clearly care about pixels.

Oh shit guys its happening. He's... cracking!

Omagerd, omagerd, omagerd!

[Ostros]

Yeah that's it. I clearly care about pixels.

Fuck else are you posting about? Do you deny that it's just pixels?

[Juevento]

Fuck else are you posting about? Do you deny that it's just pixels?

I like killing dragons with pals. Pixels be damned.

I made this thread to give the people a place to let their voices be heard. It's past time we stopped letting 8 nerds dictate policy for the rest of the server. The officer RnF forum is the worst part of this server.

[Ostros]

I like killing dragons with pals. Pixels be damned.

I made this thread to give the people a place to let their voices be heard. It's past time we stopped letting [8 nerds] dictate policy for the rest of the server. The officer RnF forum is the worst part of this server.

Let's assume I care for the span of a single post, and am also setting aside my bored tendency to fuck with literally anyone I can in this subforum. I'm being serious, in other words.

I'll probably join a guild soonish, so maybe I should get the lay of the land first.

Fuck is this even all about, and why should I care?

What 8 nerds?

[Stormfists]

As the P99 community hear the audible shuffle that resembles walking through a pile of autumnal debris, it can only mean one thing....

[Skew]

Rogean should cancel Discord server and just put BDA on their own sandbox . Would still be double Reds population and they could be bad to their hearts content without shitting up everyone else's evening.

[Maner]

That's not true.
Since both raids were CRing at eashen stairs when you guys trained, yes it is very true

[Juevento]

Let's assume I care for the span of a single post, and am also setting aside my bored tendency to fuck with literally anyone I can in this subforum. I'm being serious, in other words.

I'll probably join a guild soonish, so maybe I should get the lay of the land first.

Fuck is this even all about, and why should I care?

What 8 nerds?

The 8 nerds I am referring to are the officers from various raid capable guilds and non raid capable guilds (looking at you Omni and AG) who have access to the Raid Forum. On this forum, raid policies are hashed out by those people with members of the server staff. These discussions often lead to rules that the entire server is bound to follow.

It's insane to me that only the few people who have access to the forum are able to have their opinions heard by the server staff before rulings are made.

[Juevento]

Since both raids were CRing at eashen stairs when you guys trained, yes it is very true

Since we pulled Ikatiar out of his lair precisely one time (which was the time we killed him), this cannot be true. Any other engage by a BDA member was from seeing him out in the 4 way and trying to make a go of it.

[Maner]

Since we pulled Ikatiar out of his lair precisely one time (which was the time we killed him), this cannot be true. Any other engage by a BDA member was from seeing him out in the 4 way and trying to make a go of it.

So killing iki somehow makes the train you made disappear?

Makes it even worse if you killed the target after training people, that is a 2 week suspension...

[Juevento]

So your contention is that we pulled Ikatiar and dropped a train on you? I'm sorry but that's not the case at all. Unless of course you guys ran out into visual range of returning mobs and trained yourselves... Now if that's the case, I'm sorry but that's on you.

[captnamazing]

Fuck BDA

[Maner]

So your contention is that we pulled Ikatiar and dropped a train on you? I'm sorry but that's not the case at all. Unless of course you guys ran out into visual range of returning mobs and trained yourselves... Now if that's the case, I'm sorry but that's on you.

Is that what I said? Some reading comprehension would probably help BDA out a lot. Once the train is dropped it is still your responsibility. Meaning if those mobs pathing back agro through an invisible (to them) door then that is still your fault. Returning mobs wouldn't be returning if you hadn't of trained them out, that's not rocket surgery...it's sad the lengths at which you will go to justify your mistakes. Just admit you guys fucked up and stay out of ntov until you are ready

[Emsee]

Fuck BDA

[Ostros]

Is that what I said? Some reading comprehension would probably help BDA out a lot. Once the train is dropped it is still your responsibility. Meaning if those mobs pathing back agro through an invisible (to them) door then that is still your fault. Returning mobs wouldn't be returning if you hadn't of trained them out, that's not rocket surgery...it's sad the lengths at which you will go to justify your mistakes. Just admit you guys fucked up and stay out of ntov until you are ready

A train without aggro is not a train, dumbass. If you got caught by mobs returning to their last point, you weren't trained, you facepulled and are now FTE.

[contemptor]

Rogean should cancel Discord server and just put BDA on their own sandbox . Would still be double Reds population and they could be bad to their hearts content without shitting up everyone else's evening.
I support this. We will basically be like empire then and can come lol at Blue server problems

[JboxCSU]

Soooooo it really boils down to:

Is a non-aggro group of monsters returning calmly to their spawn point from a pull a guild did still said guilds responsibility?

Survey says...YES

Sorry BDA, your grasping straws. If you are responsible for the mobs running away from their spawn point, you are responsible for the mobs returning to their spawn point. Shouldn't matter if they are running or walking. Everyone else shouldn't have to react to shit that doesn't belong where you put them.

[arsenalpow]

So the common man can understand

http://i.imgur.com/tJrw1vU.jpg


Also, seems like your spot is perfectly fine if you actually sit in the cubby and not open the door (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH1lZbLwuQU&feature=youtu.be).

[Oleris]

So the common man can understand

http://i.imgur.com/tJrw1vU.jpg


Also, seems like your spot is perfectly fine if you actually sit in the cubby and not open the door (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UH1lZbLwuQU&feature=youtu.be).

we fight up a bit to right. stairs is where we COTH in and mend

[arsenalpow]

we fight up a bit to right. stairs is where we COTH in and mend

Ya of course, the spot with the hatchlings before the the first two drakes in front of aary. I'm just pointing to the actual "safe spot" as it's been called because as long as you're tucked deep into that cubby you should be fine.

[JboxCSU]

Two safe spots in Disneyland. Rampage has both?

Interesting.

[arsenalpow]

Two safe spots in Disneyland. Rampage has both?

Interesting.

They aren't exactly safe. (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205328) Rampage does have the numbers and infrastructure to make that spot safe though. Additionally, they like to use Vulak to summon all the dragons for them, then they can just peel out whatever dragon they want.

[Maner]

A train without aggro is not a train, dumbass. If you got caught by mobs returning to their last point, you weren't trained, you facepulled and are now FTE.

Lol what? So if I pull multiple mobs past your raid and Fd then you get agro as they path back that isn't a train? Nice try dumbass

[Maner]

Ya of course, the spot with the hatchlings before the the first two drakes in front of aary. I'm just pointing to the actual "safe spot" as it's been called because as long as you're tucked deep into that cubby you should be fine.

It's not like BDA or Taken bothered to give any warning in regards to what they were doing. So how do people recovering from a previous train know that you guys are out causing problems?

That door, like all doors in tov, doesn't stop threat from aground through it. Wouldn't have mattered where the Mage was, but your video of one wipe caused by BDA and taken "experimenting" with pulls not the other 3 that happened. I know I died 6 times at the stairs waiting for one of you two raid forces to just kill it and to stop training. It's really sad that you actually think once you FD a train it's no longer your responsibility.

[JboxCSU]

They aren't exactly safe. (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205328) Rampage does have the numbers and infrastructure to make that spot safe though. Additionally, they like to use Vulak to summon all the dragons for them, then they can just peel out whatever dragon they want.

Gotcha.

I have an idea - Maybe you could gather a number of mobs and FD it near their guild but far enough away that it doesn't aggro them. As long as the mobs are walking back to their spawn point it's not a train so you aren't responsible for it. Now they can't pull or they aggro everything.

AmIright?

[Sweettouch]

I thought I was in RnF not raid discussion

[Maner]

I thought I was in RnF not raid discussion

Well you are in a thread based mostly on BDAs inability to admit when they fucked up. So it seems like rnf material to me

[Sweettouch]

Well you are in a thread based mostly on BDAs inability to admit when they fucked up. So it seems like rnf material to me

I was there,everyone trained so please be there before you comment. thanks

[Rararboker]

He was definitely there. So then his comments are approved by you? Good to know, continue good Maner!

If the bda raid force was as good as their spin team, they'd put every other guild out of business. As it stands they wipe on Velk with 33 and train ntov when they make an appearance. Who needs more info than that?

[Maner]

I was there,everyone trained so please be there before you comment. thanks

I was there, I died 6 times due to guilds taking their first trips alone into ntov. Perhaps you should refrain from making ignorant assumptions that you don't have the information to substantiate. BDA and taken are both to blame for the training. At least taken has apologized and said they wouldn't do it again...

How about you not comment on issues you clearly didn't see from your raid in HoT

[Sweettouch]

I was there, I died 6 times due to guilds taking their first trips alone into ntov. Perhaps you should refrain from making ignorant assumptions that you don't have the information to substantiate. BDA and taken are both to blame for the training. At least taken has apologized and said they wouldn't do it again...

How about you not comment on issues you clearly didn't see from your raid in HoT

I was there,blaming solely BDA when every guild there had FTE AND a train is ignorant and you look even dumber than you did before,keep typing and come back when you move on from childish envy since you are probably in a guild who relies on makeshift alliances to even try anything.

[Rararboker]

He said taken and bda. How is that blaming solely bda'? I'm honestly curious.

[Maner]

I was there,blaming solely BDA when every guild there had FTE AND a train is ignorant and you look even dumber than you did before,keep typing and come back when you move on from childish envy since you are probably in a guild who relies on makeshift alliances to even try anything.

Every guild there had fte? Rampage trained forsaken and then conceded iki for an hour. That hour was spent with taken and BDA training iki and all of the mobs all over tov. Forsaken never even tried to pull iki in that hour rampage conceded due to the trains constantly wiping us during CR. so no, you obviously don't know what happened and you are repeating what you were told by people like chest...

[Sweettouch]

Well you are in a thread based mostly on BDAs inability to admit when they fucked up. So it seems like rnf material to me

So killing iki somehow makes the train you made disappear?

Makes it even worse if you killed the target after training people, that is a 2 week suspension...

You guys trained rampage twice while messing with iki that night as well. Nice try though

I would much rather follow a leader who wipes on velk with 33 lol

Every guild there had fte? Rampage trained forsaken and then conceded iki for an hour. That hour was spent with taken and BDA training iki and all of the mobs all over tov. Forsaken never even tried to pull iki in that hour rampage conceded due to the trains constantly wiping us during CR. so no, you obviously don't know what happened and you are repeating what you were told by people like chest...

He said taken and bda. How is that blaming solely bda'? I'm honestly curious.

Theres all your BDA blame quotes. And to no life Maner,every guild had FTE atleast once so check your facts when you try to lie again.

[Maner]

I was there,blaming solely BDA when every guild there had FTE AND a train is ignorant and you look even dumber than you did before,keep typing and come back when you move on from childish envy since you are probably in a guild who relies on makeshift alliances to even try anything.

So honestly, you're just upset being the only raid guild not to have participated in a AoW kill? How was wiping on velk yesterday with 33? Perhaps you should look into an alliance, it's apparent BDA needs someone to carry them around

[Sweettouch]

So honestly, you're just upset being the only raid guild not to have participated in a AoW kill? How was wiping on velk yesterday with 33? Perhaps you should look into an alliance, it's apparent BDA needs someone to carry them around

Wouldnt know,wasnt there for velks.No alliances I'd rather earn my worthless pixels thanks

[Rararboker]

None of those solely place blame on bda. And in the context that taken pals admitted they did wrong and won't be trying it again, it still fits. You're just to mad or else you have our reading comprehension. I hope it is the former.

[Rararboker]

Poor* reading

Autocorrect is a bitch

[Maner]

Theres all your BDA blame quotes. And to no life Maner,every guild had FTE atleast once so check your facts when you try to lie again.
It's not an FTE when iki gets social agro through the train your pullers dropped.. And your quotes show me mentioning BDA and taken so I don't see how I blamed only BDA. The difference is taken has apologized and said it wouldn't happen again. BDA is blaming it on everyone else and taking no responsibility...

Do you even realize how iki is pulled to eashen stairs? There is no train he is split out of a pull just past the doorway. So your idea that every guild had fte and trains is just ridiculous.

Oh, by the way, how did track go yesterday?

[Sweettouch]

None of those solely place blame on bda. And in the context that taken pals admitted they did wrong and won't be trying it again, it still fits. You're just to mad or else you have our reading comprehension. I hope it is the former.

Poor* reading

Autocorrect is a bitch

Might aswell triple post to back peddle you are clearly mad,no wonder your avatar is cartman

[Sweettouch]

It's not an FTE when iki gets social agro through the train your pullers dropped.. And your quotes show me mentioning BDA and taken so I don't see how I blamed only BDA. The difference is taken has apologized and said it wouldn't happen again. BDA is blaming it on everyone else and taking no responsibility...

Do you even realize how iki is pulled to eashen stairs? There is no train he is split out of a pull just past the doorway. So your idea that every guild had fte and trains is just ridiculous.

Oh, by the way, how did track go yesterday?

You really believe Taken gives a rats ass? They will do it again in an instant for pixels. Control your worthless recruits and tell them to sit back in safe areas and cubbies and your guild wont be trained. it isnt hard

[Rararboker]

No clue what you mean. You will respect mah authoritah.

[Maner]

Might aswell triple post to back peddle you are clearly mad,no wonder your avatar is cartman

"Clearly mad" because it takes a clearly stable individual to attempt and deduce an emotional level or response in 5 lines of text on a message board. Are you also a liberal? That seems to be the defense of one who has been shown they are wrong. Deflecting to accusations of "anger". "Why you so mad" is the epitome of childish arguing on the Internet.

[Rararboker]

You put it better than me. I figured they wanted a cartman quote.

[Maner]

You really believe Taken gives a rats ass? They will do it again in an instant for pixels. Control your worthless recruits and tell them to sit back in safe areas and cubbies and your guild wont be trained. it isnt hard

What recruit? The person in chests video is a guild coth Mage. Just keep advertising your ignorance. I'm sure it will help prove BDA was right in all of this. And it is yet to be seen if taken really cares or not. Deflecting and accusing them prematurely of being dishonest just to take the focus away from the fact that BDA hasn't even admitted they did anything wrong.

[Sweettouch]

You put it better than me. I figured they wanted a cartman quote.

"Clearly mad" because it takes a clearly stable individual to attempt and deduce an emotional level or response in 5 lines of text on a message board. Are you also a liberal? That seems to be the defense of one who has been shown they are wrong. Deflecting to accusations of "anger". "Why you so mad" is the epitome of childish arguing on the Internet.

I read 7 pages of you crying over BDA training you and won't bitch at any of the 4-5other guilds. Got to jump on the bandwagon because you have no balls to call out your shitty alliance members in fear they will betray you and your free pixels go away? It won't last forever buddy boy. Eventually it will all end and it will be hilarious when you beg BDA for mercy

[Rararboker]

What are you ranting about? You've gone from me being able to understand you to pure nonsense? Please go into more detail.

[Sweettouch]

What are you ranting about? You've gone from me being able to understand you to pure nonsense? Please go into more detail.

I was talking to your buddy Maner. only quoted what you because I wanted a cartman line

[Rararboker]

You are still descending further into the indecipherable. Turn around before it is too late.

[Maner]

I read 7 pages of you crying over BDA training you and won't bitch at any of the 4-5other guilds. Got to jump on the bandwagon because you have no balls to call out your shitty alliance members in fear they will betray you and your free pixels go away? It won't last forever buddy boy. Eventually it will all end and it will be hilarious when you beg BDA for mercy

There were a total of 6 guilds in tov I believe. 3 of which were in ntov one didn't even try to pull iki which leaves taken and BDA being the only guilds pulling iki out of ntov and training the zone around. Why am I opposed to focus on the other 4 guilds who were being wiped because of taken and BDA?

The incident in question was 2 weeks ago. If you still think we are stuck on the fact that it happened, and not BDAs total lack of acknowledgement that they did something wrong, you're an idiot. It says a lot when even your guilds leader will come up with obvious and uneducated excuses to try and say it wasn't their fault. Not sure which alliance members you are referring to. I said Taken was just as at fault as BDA, however taken acknowledged this and said it won't happen again by them, BDA makes excuses as to how it wasn't really their fault. Which of those 2 deserves the attention?

[Sweettouch]

There were a total of 6 guilds in tov I believe. 3 of which were in ntov one didn't even try to pull iki which leaves taken and BDA being the only guilds pulling iki out of ntov and training the zone around. Why am I opposed to focus on the other 4 guilds who were being wiped because of taken and BDA?

The incident in question was 2 weeks ago. If you still think we are stuck on the fact that it happened, and not BDAs total lack of acknowledgement that they did something wrong, you're an idiot. It says a lot when even your guilds leader will come up with obvious and uneducated excuses to try and say it wasn't their fault. Not sure which alliance members you are referring to. I said Taken was just as at fault as BDA, however taken acknowledged this and said it won't happen again by them, BDA makes excuses as to how it wasn't really their fault. Which of those 2 deserves the attention?


Just out of curiousity do you get DKP per sentence? I hope you get a nice BoC to sell in EC.I'm sorry,I didn't realize I was talking to the mentally disabled. Not all were in Ntov and thats a fact alot cross wing pulled so stop being slow and focusing on hating big bad BDA then see clearly what happened

[Maner]

I read 7 pages of you crying over BDA training you and won't bitch at any of the 4-5other guilds. Got to jump on the bandwagon because you have no balls to call out your shitty alliance members in fear they will betray you and your free pixels go away? It won't last forever buddy boy. Eventually it will all end and it will be hilarious when you beg BDA for mercy

We already are, we are begging for mercy in that BDA stops training every other guild in their greedy quest for loot. Or if you do train people you man up, admit to it, and take the suspension or concession

[Sweettouch]

We already are, we are begging for mercy in that BDA stops training every other guild in their greedy quest for loot. Or if you do train people you man up, admit to it, and take the suspension or concession

Can't read well when you fill with anger I see,quoted the same thing I said twice because you just finally caught on.

[Maner]

Just out of curiousity do you get DKP per sentence? I hope you get a nice BoC to sell in EC.I'm sorry,I didn't realize I was talking to the mentally disabled. Not all were in Ntov and thats a fact alot cross wing pulled so stop being slow and focusing on hating big bad BDA then see clearly what happened

Not all were in ntov. Can you read what I wrote again kiddo? 3 guilds were in ntov, rampage, asgard, and forsaken. Rampage pulled iki first and wiped forsaken and Asgard with their adds. They conceded iki for 1/1. At which point I believe taken tried pulling iki to wtov zone out. The pull never made it but the mobs pathing back wiped us at eashen stairs. Then BDA got FTE and the pathing mobs wiped us again at eashen stairs while we were CRing. After that I'm not sure how the FTEs went as I was dead, being texted then trained again before I could even loot because of the horrible pulls going on.

The 3rd guild that I thought was there was divnity but that may have been last week when they were trained by aary in wtov.

Why would I require dkp compensation for calling out the truth?

[Juevento]

Every guild there had fte? Rampage trained forsaken and then conceded iki for an hour. That hour was spent with taken and BDA training iki and all of the mobs all over tov. Forsaken never even tried to pull iki in that hour rampage conceded due to the trains constantly wiping us during CR. so no, you obviously don't know what happened and you are repeating what you were told by people like chest...

So this is the chain of FTEs that lead to TMO wiping themselves. I also have fraps of this, so don't bother arguing. Cashrip (whoever the heck that is) is the initial aggro on this and pulled Ikatiar into west. This was the first FTE shout in nearly 3 minutes so I'm gonna assume that he was pulled from North here.

BDA (we didn't know where the guy was at the time) attempts to move ent mobs into West and lo and behold, there is a giant pissed off wyvern pathing back to North from ToV West where I believe Taken's force was (Relbaic's engage). Chest then tries valiantly to coax Ikatiar into South where we had a nice present for the guy, but could not lure him in properly.

[Sun Oct 11 20:07:58 2015] Ikatiar the Venom engages Cashrip! <--- Who?
[Sun Oct 11 20:08:24 2015] Ikatiar the Venom engages Relbaic!
[Sun Oct 11 20:08:55 2015] Ikatiar the Venom engages Chest!
[Sun Oct 11 20:09:27 2015] Ikatiar the Venom engages Elament! <-- Idiot TMO mage who wiped TMO's raid

If you want to blame BDA for having Ikatiar trained onto us and trying to kill the mob instead of playing Tiananmen raid force, go for it. I doubt that kind of logic will get you anywhere.

[Relbaic]

How was wiping on velk yesterday with 33? Perhaps you should look into an alliance, it's apparent BDA needs someone to carry them around

Probably felt the same as Rampage/Taken/Asgard wiping on Nexona with over 30 the other day, or Taken wiping on CT with little competition Sunday, or Forsaken/Asgard wiping on Gozzrem Sunday, or any guild wiping on any mob. You're pretty desperate if you're attempting to make it sound like BDA is the only guild to wipe on mobs.

Fuck BDA.

[Maner]

Can't read well when you fill with anger I see,quoted the same thing I said twice because you just finally caught on.

Seems to me, the real problem here are people like you who actually get angry over pixels. Why is it so hard to admit that BDA made a stupid call pulling through 3 guilds and this wiping them? Seems the only one really angry would be the one tossing out excuses left and right...

[Sweettouch]

Seems to me, the real problem here are people like you who actually get angry over pixels. Why is it so hard to admit that BDA made a stupid call pulling through 3 guilds and this wiping them? Seems the only one really angry would be the one tossing out excuses left and right...

Got nothing to admit,check your logs get your head out of your ass and move on. Also fuck pixels and you

[Relbaic]

So this is the chain of FTEs that lead to TMO wiping themselves. I also have fraps of this, so don't bother arguing. Cashrip (whoever the heck that is) is the initial aggro on this and pulled Ikatiar into west. This was the first FTE shout in nearly 3 minutes so I'm gonna assume that he was pulled from North here.

BDA (we didn't know where the guy was at the time) attempts to move ent mobs into West and lo and behold, there is a giant pissed off wyvern pathing back to North from ToV West where I believe Taken's force was (Relbaic's engage). Chest then tries valiantly to coax Ikatiar into South where we had a nice present for the guy, but could not lure him in properly.

[Sun Oct 11 20:07:58 2015] Ikatiar the Venom engages Cashrip! <--- Who?
[Sun Oct 11 20:08:24 2015] Ikatiar the Venom engages Relbaic!
[Sun Oct 11 20:08:55 2015] Ikatiar the Venom engages Chest!
[Sun Oct 11 20:09:27 2015] Ikatiar the Venom engages Elament! <-- Idiot TMO mage who wiped TMO's raid

If you want to blame BDA for having Ikatiar trained onto us and trying to kill the mob instead of playing Tiananmen raid force, go for it. I doubt that kind of logic will get you anywhere.

Cashrip is in Taken.

[Rararboker]

Cashrip is taken iirc. Cant confirm though, just going of memory. Though comparing any of those mobs to velk is pretty comical. Velk is a pushover compared to nexona or any of those mobs really.

[Maner]

So this is the chain of FTEs that lead to TMO wiping themselves. I also have fraps of this, so don't bother arguing. Cashrip (whoever the heck that is) is the initial aggro on this and pulled Ikatiar into west. This was the first FTE shout in nearly 3 minutes so I'm gonna assume that he was pulled from North here.

BDA (we didn't know where the guy was at the time) attempts to move ent mobs into West and lo and behold, there is a giant pissed off wyvern pathing back to North from ToV West where I believe Taken's force was (Relbaic's engage). Chest then tries valiantly to coax Ikatiar into South where we had a nice present for the guy, but could not lure him in properly.

[Sun Oct 11 20:07:58 2015] Ikatiar the Venom engages Cashrip! <--- Who?
[Sun Oct 11 20:08:24 2015] Ikatiar the Venom engages Relbaic!
[Sun Oct 11 20:08:55 2015] Ikatiar the Venom engages Chest!
[Sun Oct 11 20:09:27 2015] Ikatiar the Venom engages Elament! <-- Idiot TMO mage who wiped TMO's raid

If you want to blame BDA for having Ikatiar trained onto us and trying to kill the mob instead of playing Tiananmen raid force, go for it. I doubt that kind of logic will get you anywhere.

Element got social agro onto iki because BDAs train agroed through a door. A door that doesn't matter if open or closed mobs will still agro through. That agro never would have happened if BDA and Taken hadn't tried to pull iki out of his wing which is the entire point. And it's nice you have logs of one of the wipes. What about the other 3 or 4 that happened because of your trains pathing back?

Lol chests video doesn't show anything other than you guys watching your train path back and agro onto another guild, which is still training. Self incriminating evidence is the best kind I think

[Maner]

Probably felt the same as Rampage/Taken/Asgard wiping on Nexona with over 30 the other day, or Taken wiping on CT with little competition Sunday, or Forsaken/Asgard wiping on Gozzrem Sunday, or any guild wiping on any mob. You're pretty desperate if you're attempting to make it sound like BDA is the only guild to wipe on mobs.

Fuck BDA.

Which of those examples is doable with 12-15 people?

[Rararboker]

Really makes me wonder though. What's going on in tov? There has been no staff support since those first two weeks.

[Relbaic]

Which of those examples is doable with 12-15 people?

Pretty sure you missed the point, but if you want to go there, Gozzrem with the right class compilation is doable with 18 people in decent gear, 15 in real good gear.

[Juevento]

Element got social agro onto iki because BDAs train agroed through a door. A door that doesn't matter if open or closed mobs will still agro through. That agro never would have happened if BDA and Taken hadn't tried to pull iki out of his wing which is the entire point. And it's nice you have logs of one of the wipes. What about the other 3 or 4 that happened because of your trains pathing back?

Lol chests video doesn't show anything other than you guys watching your train path back and agro onto another guild, which is still training. Self incriminating evidence is the best kind I think

I literally just showed you FTE chain proof that it was not BDAs train, but evidently you are too stupid to understand. That was Hoku's fraps. It really seems like you aren't very well informed and are in fact a non-factor in TMO. I will remove myself from this discussion and leave you to your delusions.

[Maner]

Really makes me wonder though. What's going on in tov? There has been no staff support since those first two weeks.

There wasn't even staff support thise first weeks. Forsaken at a 2 week ban on a mob for doing exactly what BDA did on iki. The problem comes to rules not being enforced, or more likely, the guilds with to moral fortitude to hold themselves to the current rules get screwed by those that think they are above playing nice.

[Rararboker]

Based on what I know of forum quest, you just won a small victory maner.

[Sweettouch]

There wasn't even staff support thise first weeks. Forsaken at a 2 week ban on a mob for doing exactly what BDA did on iki. The problem comes to rules not being enforced, or more likely, the guilds with to moral fortitude to hold themselves to the current rules get screwed by those that think they are above playing nice.

Is that why Foreskin pre coths people for trak?get over yourself

[Maner]

I literally just showed you FTE chain proof that it was not BDAs train, but evidently you are too stupid to understand. That was Hoku's fraps. It really seems like you aren't very well informed and are in fact a non-factor in TMO. I will remove myself from this discussion and leave you to your delusions.

No, you just admitted that taken trained but then instead of letting it reset, chest, picked it back up to try and pull iki to east. How exactly doesn't that make it your train now?

[Rararboker]

Is that why Foreskin pre coths people for trak?get over yourself

Never happened. L2coth better.

[Maner]

Is that why Foreskin pre coths people for trak?get over yourself

Just because BDA won't even engage trak without 30 people, and then still wipes uncontested, doesn't mean other guilds who can FTE with 6 and kill the mob are pre-cothing people down

[Sweettouch]

Just because BDA won't even engage trak without 30 people, and then still wipes uncontested, doesn't mean other guilds who can FTE with 6 and kill the mob are pre-cothing people down

Never happened. L2coth better.

I see I struck a nerve,have fun with your circle jerk. you both bore me

[Maner]

I see I struck a nerve,have fun with your circle jerk. you both bore me

So people responding to you shows you struck a nerve? The amount of assumption made by you BDA people is pretty pathetic... If BDA has to tell themselves they lose trak because forsaken pre-coths... Whatever lets you sleep at night

[Herp]

Really makes me wonder though. What's going on in tov? There has been no staff support since those first two weeks.

There hasn't been a need. Rampage has killed 95% of NTOV uncontested since week 2 or 3. The recent Iki/aary cluster is renewed due to guilds teaming up, followed by forumquesting by guilds who hardly step foot in NTOV.

[Gimp]

anyone else find it cute that all the guilds that have been accused of training and have never conceded a mob afterwards are in one big circlejerk thread in raid discussion while the one guild that plays by the rules laughs in the distance?

tis funny, i tell you

[fiveeauxfour]

its not training when you have a) good intentions and you are b) oblivious

its in the raid rules posted by sirken

[Pokesan]

12 pages of BDA getting dunked on by every raiding guild other than Rampage

wow

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

God is this thread irritating. Weak stuff. Fight to mobs, coth to mobs, or gtfo imo.

If the gm's don't want to do gm'ing anymore, I think the devs need to leash Velious dragons. Otherwise, this end game is going to devolve into train management as the sole strat of how you secure pixels. That is not in anyone's interest, because it is boring as fuck.

[Clockw0rk]

All these post-classic noobs not knowing what it was like here on p99 with 3-5 guilds in hate/fear each time Inny/CT popped with no trains, no leapfrogging, and actual guild communications instead of a plethora of petitions.

I feel sorry for them!

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

All these post-classic noobs not knowing what it was like here on p99 with 3-5 guilds in hate/fear each time Inny/CT popped with no trains, no leapfrogging, and actual guild communications instead of a plethora of petitions.

I feel sorry for them!

Was this because there was gm's doing their jobs? Cuz if so, apples and oranges. There is no gm'ing now. It is ffa. But I appreciate your memories. Maybe someday in the eq old folks home you can share in more detail.

[Skew]

So are BDA banned from ToV for 1 week or 2 after posting their own train fraps ?
lol dumbasses.

[ryachart]

We just need 1 big mega-guild. No reason for there to be multiple raiding guilds on the same server. Just join, earn DKP, spend DKP. It's infinitely better than this arbitrary "competition" for raid mobs.

[jcr4990]

http://www.troll.me/images/thumbs-up-jesus-says/yall-mother-fuckers-need-jesus.jpg

Also: Fuck BDA #1 scum guild of P99

[Pokesan]

im actually onboard with BDA getting their own server; just remove mobs that drop raid loot

it's not about the pixels, right?

[Merekai]

Here's an idea...clear the north wing trash mobs like they were meant to be?
Oh wait this is P99...

Chev

[Troubled]

Didn't read thread. If you can't kill a mob in the wing it spawns in, don't kill it. You're training everyone else, fuckfaces. Grow some balls and take faction hits.

[Stormfists]

Can't help but think BDA chooses it's own morality when it suits.

If that exact same video was another guilds train, and it was Juevento's chubby stumpy body poking out of the cubby, then this thread would have been phrased to trash everyone for "training".

Tldr;
BDA gets trained - "waaaah."
BDA trains others - "/shrug, ain't our fault."

Chest grow some balls buddy and just admit when BDA are in the wrong.

[radda]

The key thing about Detoxx's lunatic ravings is that; that wasn't BDAs train. We pulled the net hallway mobs to West ent and then saw Ikatiar pathing back FROM west and tried to grab him out of that mess. That was the FTE that Detoxx thinks was due to a BDA pull. I have no clue how or who pulled him initially to west. Prolly Taken.

Dude, I have pure fraps of all guilds training at some point in Ntov and west

[am0n]

Caveat: I don't raid here.

I raided pretty heavily on Live from Velious-PoP. I never went on raid that trained/kited trash away from raid targets before RZtWL, where we kited the adds that spawned.

I believe the FTE rule is largely to blame for the mess. On Nameless, the rule was "First in force". First guild to gather its raid force in a zone got to pick its target (North, West, HoT). This worked fantastically well for lots of reasons. Primarily, it forced guilds to prioritize their targets. If guild A is claiming NToV, then they can't also claim Tormax, or Statue. This let more guilds get more targets and eliminated the need to train trash around to tag targets.

I know why we have FTE. But it seems like with top guilds having 2-3 different raid forces of alts parked around the game, it essentially locks smaller guilds out of raiding. If Guild A is socking ToV North, and trak pops, they can camp over to their alts, FTE and kill it before a less coordinated guild can mobilize. They can do this without losing their shot at ToV north. With first in force, if Guild A wanted to go after Trak, they would have to disengage ToV north and lose their claim at North, which would let smaller guilds take Trak.

I love this idea. Unfortunately, there would be basically no way to enforce it. Devs had to add FTE just to get people to stop shitting up the system. Imagine if the only "proof" they had first force was a shopped screen cap? Perhaps if we had a stronger GM presence to lay down the law a few times until people straightened out.

[maestrom]

I love this idea. Unfortunately, there would be basically no way to enforce it. Devs had to add FTE just to get people to stop shitting up the system. Imagine if the only "proof" they had first force was a shopped screen cap? Perhaps if we had a stronger GM presence to lay down the law a few times until people straightened out.


Appreciate you not trolling. I don't think it needs a strong gm presence. Every raid guild rolls with fraps on all the time anyways. It's not hard set numbers for encounters, we have enough data and experience to know what these encounters take.

We can argue about when the threshold for "first in force" is met, pure numbers would be easiest to enforce. If everyone agrees that it takes 30 people to kill a target, then whichever guild gets 30 people in the zone first (no doubt with fraps running) gets to claim the target and other guilds have to go find something else to do. Maybe a certain raod makeup could be required for higher priority Vel targets. (Like you need XYZ clerics/enchanters for NToV to claim).

Would there still be drama? OF COURSE!

We have drama because people get upset over competitive content. First in force means the drama plays out at zonelines and results in guilds moving on to do other things instead of have 3 guilds frothing at the mouth training each other trying to get FTE on the same targets. First in force doesn't reduce drama, it reduces trains and increases access to content for less competitive guilds.

[arsenalpow]

Until first in force turns into a guild sitting at the designated spot 40 people deep 24 hours before the content even comes into window to secure their shot. P99 is home to a special sort of degenerate.

[am0n]

Until first in force turns into a guild sitting at the designated spot 40 people deep 24 hours before the content even comes into window to secure their shot. P99 is home to a special sort of degenerate.

And that's okay. If those people want that spawn so badly they do that, power to them. It frees up other spawns for other guilds. I'm pretty sure that's the point he was getting at.

[JboxCSU]

And that's okay. If those people want that spawn so badly they do that, power to them. It frees up other spawns for other guilds. I'm pretty sure that's the point he was getting at.

I like it.

[Fanguru]

First in force would be a nightmare to enforce, but let us entertain the idea a minute.

What would it grant exactly?
Everyone has to move away for XXmn so first in force can make an attempt?
How long can they stall before engaging?
If that timer runs out, are other guilds meant to pull through first in force?
Where do other guilds wait?
What happens if first in force wipes, is it FTE again between other guilds to decide who picks up the mob? Since other guilds moved away, there is probably trash on the way. More trains?

With so many guilds competing for the same mobs and so few spots, I do not see this happening realistically.

[arsenalpow]

And that's okay. If those people want that spawn so badly they do that, power to them. It frees up other spawns for other guilds. I'm pretty sure that's the point he was getting at.

There's no way that will ever be possible. There's no way you can tell the hardcore guilds that first in force from a socking guild will remove their ability to compete for a target. I appreciate that you have this idea of a spirited competitive raid scene where guilds can choose where to focus their efforts, be rewarded, and grow. In reality Rampage is still killing 95% of any content they attempt to go after, while 3 other lower tier guilds go straight mercenary for any possible target when it suits them.

The fundamental problem with p99 is we were in Kunark for 4 years, the end game is super crazy over saturated, your average veteran raider on this server has something like 4 or more level 60 characters which allows for a strategically planted raid force to compete for targets all over the world. I mean I HATE leveling, I legitimately leveled Chest, and then I have 3 other level 60s that came up through Chardok, plus I have a few level 52 characters for naggy/Vox. New guilds get choked out because they won't ever have that sort of infrastructure because they are 4 years behind the curve.

Not to mention some of the Velious content isn't properly tuned (any fearing dragon) so you're forced to contort your raid force into these ridiculous permutations where you have 15 rogues and 10 clerics to even attempt content which is why you see Taken Asgard Forsaken always teaming up for stuff.

[Kekephee]

And that's okay. If those people want that spawn so badly they do that, power to them. It frees up other spawns for other guilds. I'm pretty sure that's the point he was getting at.

Requesting someone post a screenshot of one of the famous 300-person weekend-long Trakanon socks so this person knows what they're defending

[arsenalpow]

Just to illustrate the silliness that is GM enforcement and first in force, here is a 100% true anecdote regarding the matter.

Back when raid target windows were absurd BDA used to do Jugg farm sessions while Trak was in window. The goal was to get spells for our members and if Trak happened to spawn during the long ass window we could take a shot at him. We'd farm from a protector kill to a protector spawn, a good 3 hour raid or something. Typically we would make camp at the cubby below poop mountain and just leisurely kill stuff. On this particular day Trak was running late into window so TMO was lurking about. We ended up moving our raid force up to near Jumpy's spawn point so we could immediately contest Trak should he spawn while we continued to kill Juggs.

TMO ended up logging in full force, moved directly on top of Trak's spawn point (which mind you is 50 paces from where we were set up) and claimed first in force because they were actually on the spawn point as opposed to near the spawn point. Amelinda awarded TMO first in force rights and they got one of their 200+ Trakanon kills so they could continue VP keying level 1s so they could have twink enchanters with charm sticks or twink necros with soul well staves.

That level of excess is what the hardcore raiders of this server expect. It's not enough to have a 6k raid buffed character with full ST gear, full NToV gear, and AoW drops - it's about having 3 other alts geared like that as well and those hardcore players will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get that loot. They would sit in Venril Sathir's room for over 100 hours just to get a kill. Taken used to straight up sock Inny for 100 hours at a time if need be. First in force would be a disaster.

[maestrom]

Just to illustrate the silliness that is GM enforcement and first in force, here is a 100% true anecdote regarding the matter.

Back when raid target windows were absurd BDA used to do Jugg farm sessions while Trak was in window. The goal was to get spells for our members and if Trak happened to spawn during the long ass window we could take a shot at him. We'd farm from a protector kill to a protector spawn, a good 3 hour raid or something. Typically we would make camp at the cubby below poop mountain and just leisurely kill stuff. On this particular day Trak was running late into window so TMO was lurking about. We ended up moving our raid force up to near Jumpy's spawn point so we could immediately contest Trak should he spawn while we continued to kill Juggs.

TMO ended up logging in full force, moved directly on top of Trak's spawn point (which mind you is 50 paces from where we were set up) and claimed first in force because they were actually on the spawn point as opposed to near the spawn point. Amelinda awarded TMO first in force rights and they got one of their 200+ Trakanon kills so they could continue VP keying level 1s so they could have twink enchanters with charm sticks or twink necros with soul well staves.

That level of excess is what the hardcore raiders of this server expect. It's not enough to have a 6k raid buffed character with full ST gear, full NToV gear, and AoW drops - it's about having 3 other alts geared like that as well and those hardcore players will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get that loot. They would sit in Venril Sathir's room for over 100 hours just to get a kill. Taken used to straight up sock Inny for 100 hours at a time if need be. First in force would be a disaster.


I really appreciate your willingness to participate in the conversation. I admit fully that I don't raid here, and a group of dickfaces that want to ruin something aren't going to be stopped by a rules change. But it's actually pretty easy to write easily enforceable rules regarding first in force.

Under the rule I propose, the first guild to get to X people in a ZONE has the right to announce to the zone (and if necessary to other guild leaders) that they have claimed this entire spawn of target Y.

To use your trak example. If your guild had X people in seb, you would have the right to claim trak for your guild, and as long as your guild maintained at least X people in the zone, you would be able to enforce your claim on trak against any other guild, not matter where they position their raid. Its not first on the spawn, its not bigger force, its first in force: the first guild to reach the raid force threshhold.

In your example, TMO would have broken the rule and your guild would have a right to have a CSR staff come in and enforce your rights. Same as if they had trained you or KSed you under the current FTE rules.

If TMO saw BDA gathering for trak, TMO would be free to log in their poop mountain alts and try to get first in force on you, but then BDA would be able to take Kael, or ToV, or Zland. In order for a guild to claim 1 target (target will obviously need to be defined broadly in Velious raid zones, statue would necessarily include AoW), the guild would have to give up its claim to all other raid targets because we have rules about being logged into two characters at the same time.

This would be pretty easy to enforce. Count the number of BDA in a zone. If BDA is the first guild to get to X then they get the target. Roll fraps of the couple of minutes leading up to your guild making a claim and then you're done. If your guild drops below X, another guild can, if they get to X before you get back to it, take your claim.

The benefit is, the fraps is of the zone population, not who trained who with what failed pull. Much less at stake.

[maestrom]

The problem with your trak example, was there wasn't a clear rule, not that the intent of the rule was bad.

[Fanguru]

So you can sit your X people at ToV entrance, claim Aaryonar, and afk + petition guilds getting FTE on him?

[maestrom]

There's no way that will ever be possible. There's no way you can tell the hardcore guilds that first in force from a socking guild will remove their ability to compete for a target. I appreciate that you have this idea of a spirited competitive raid scene where guilds can choose where to focus their efforts, be rewarded, and grow. In reality Rampage is still killing 95% of any content they attempt to go after, while 3 other lower tier guilds go straight mercenary for any possible target when it suits them.



It's actually very easy to tell hardcore guilds what they can and cannot do. Sirken tells people what to do all the time. He tells them that they're not allowed 2-box. They're not allowed to RMT. They're not allowed to speed hack. They're not allowed to train people. They're not allowed to KS. They're not allowed talk shit about staff members.

People that don't play by the rules have action taken against them. If first in force is adopted, the hardcore players would play by the rules because if they don't then they would have appropriate action taken against them.

Rampage will probably still get most of the targets. But when 3 targets are in window, Rampage can only sock one. And if they claim NToV and Tormax pops, grats BDA or some other guild.

[arsenalpow]

Rogean came from a competitive raid scene server, he sets the rules, Sirken merely enforces his wishes. Rogean has no interest in a "first in force" rule set so he'd never decree it. The only work around to this would be if all the guilds got together and agreed on a rule set, however I don't see Rampage hamstringing their pixel intake unnecessarily for the good of the server.

[JboxCSU]

So you can sit your X people at ToV entrance, claim Aaryonar, and afk + petition guilds getting FTE on him?

He's just laying the foundation, there would be holes to plug. I wouldn't be a fan of FiF in zone, but more of a proponent of FiF near the raid target, or a known/safe pull spot of the target.

Things like # of attempts, time to engage from claim, etc can be worked out.

Honestly FiF is the best idea I've seen...

[maestrom]

So you can sit your X people at ToV entrance, claim Aaryonar, and afk + petition guilds getting FTE on him?

TBH, I'm not sure how well First in Force would work in zones like sleepers and ToV, and I'm not sure how guilds normally divide NToV. Is it usually 1 guild takes all of NToV or do guilds leapfrog each other?

I'm fine with just saying that NToV + sleepers remain FTE.

If one pop of NToV is typically cleared by several guilds, then first in force would not make much sense to put in place. But if NToV is usually only raided by 1 guild at a time (guilds do not actively leapfrog each other), then FIF would work fine.

Yes. a guild could sit at IZ and claim NToV/Specific targets within NToV if necessary.

[maestrom]

Rogean came from a competitive raid scene server, he sets the rules, Sirken merely enforces his wishes. Rogean has no interest in a "first in force" rule set so he'd never decree it. The only work around to this would be if all the guilds got together and agreed on a rule set, however I don't see Rampage hamstringing their pixel intake unnecessarily for the good of the server.

Totally. Hehe. I'm not coming in here and throwing my dick on the table so to speak. I'm just advocating for a rule that I think would work better for more guilds than FTE.

[Juevento]

FYI - This thread was meant for non-Officer RnF enabled folks. Chest, please kindly take your bourgeoisie ass elsewhere.

[arsenalpow]

Sadly, Regular RnF is more reasonable than Officer RnF.

[Rararboker]

@maestrom= there is no division of ntov. Everyone scrambles to leapfrog or pull a mob first. It can be a md house. But until the last 2-3 weeks it has only been forsaken and rampage on 90% of the mobs. So trains were minimal and only happened occasionally. When they did, the responsble guild conceded on the mob.

[maestrom]

Sadly, Regular RnF is more reasonable than Officer RnF.

While we have you, How does NToV usually get divied up? Aary's kind of a but because (correct me if I'm wrong) its not really possible to get to the other bosses in NToV without killing him.

So I'm imagining a situation where Filthy_Casual_Guild has gotten FIF and wants Aary only because they can't really handle the bigger baddies. If NToV is usually cleared by one guild, its fine to make Aary part of NToV completely and just say that NToV itself is a "target".

I imagine West and HoT are typically cleared by 1 guild, but if they're split up someone can correct me. So FIF would work just fine. 3 targets in ToV. North, West, and HoT. FIF gets its choice, next gets its choice, 3rd guild gets whatever is left.

[Fanguru]

Every guild who can muster a 50+ people force can kill Aaryonar in NToV, especially with the alliances.
Once Aary is dead, most dragons in NToV are easier.
We had huge train issues because 5 guilds were competing for NToV mobs and there aren't 5 safe spots.

After Aary, there is leapfrogging all over the place.
The slimiest tactic used so far (afaik) was aggroing Vulaak (ie: all nameds are summoned to him) after another guild killed Kreizen's guards and picking Kreizen off when he was pathing back.

[maestrom]

@maestrom= there is no division of ntov. Everyone scrambles to leapfrog or pull a mob first. It can be a md house. But until the last 2-3 weeks it has only been forsaken and rampage on 90% of the mobs. So trains were minimal and only happened occasionally. When they did, the responsble guild conceded on the mob.

If this is the case, its probably best to leave NToV and Sleepers as FTE. I think that, generally, FIF is a better system, but it would be easy to imagine a situation where Guild A claims Aary and then sits there until 4am before engaging.

I am NOT a fan of time limits on engage/wipes. The point of FIF is to encourage guilds that don't want to participate in the FTE grieffest to get to raiding. to put FIF in place and then to give them only 1 shot at a target or to say that they only have 20 minutes to execute their plan would be a little unfair.

[Rararboker]

West is usually farmed by divinity. HoT can support 2 guilds farming armor drops. Its usslly first come, first serve. See previous post for ntov.

[bktroost]

Rogean came from a competitive raid scene server, he sets the rules, Sirken merely enforces his wishes. Rogean has no interest in a "first in force" rule set so he'd never decree it. The only work around to this would be if all the guilds got together and agreed on a rule set, however I don't see Rampage hamstringing their pixel intake unnecessarily for the good of the server.

Arn't they the only ones to bow out of a fight after a training?

Pretty sure Hokushin was part of the creation of that rule and so far the only one to adhere to it...twice.

[JboxCSU]

It really does come down to the big ass guilds agreeing to FiF...because the current rule set is heavily in their favor. They have the ability and infrastructure to bounce all over the place and FTE anything they want.

This new system allows < small family guild of stalwart adventurers > to lay claim to a statue spawn that they normally wouldn't have a prayer of attempting.

I think it's the best answer though.

[dafier]

West is usually farmed by divinity. HoT can support 2 guilds farming armor drops. Its usslly first come, first serve. See previous post for ntov.

Trust me when I say, "I'm not throwing shit at your comment by saying..."

HoT can support 2 guilds? Maybe Div and As. BDA alone wreck that place. We've proved it several times only to have what footballers call a certain foul; encroachment, occur on multiple occasions.

WHICH also includes KSing, and other shenanigans.

[am0n]

It really does come down to the big ass guilds agreeing to FiF...because the current rule set is heavily in their favor. They have the ability and infrastructure to bounce all over the place and FTE anything they want.

This new system allows < small family guild of stalwart adventurers > to lay claim to a statue spawn that they normally wouldn't have a prayer of attempting.

I think it's the best answer though.

I agree with this. It forces the big guilds to start figuring out what spawns are most important to them and gives more people a chance at participating by staking claims in mobs they desire.

Again, though, without GM intervention (and a force large enough to be there mostly when needed), I don't think we'll see it. We can already see how the leaders of some of the big guilds have responded to the idea, so there is zero chance they'd agree to a gentleman's agreement.

[Rararboker]

Well the big problem is that the orinal thread was to discuss not pulling mobs from one wing to another. Everything else is a discussion for another thread (which raid leaders can start) and doesnt really belong in that officer thread. It acts as a distraction from the current issue.

[dafier]

Let me clarify encroachment:

BDA already in HoT. No one else there. (JUST AN EXAMPLE) Asgard shows up and starts pulling mobs that start spawning back to the point of peeling/KSing off BDA monks.

[arsenalpow]

Arn't they the only ones to bow out of a fight after a training?

Pretty sure Hokushin was part of the creation of that rule and so far the only one to adhere to it...twice.

Well considering rampage goes after every single mob in NToV they have ample more opportunities to concede. BDA has 3 NToV kills, and maybe only 5 total attempts. The issue that we're currently having is a disagreement about what constitutes a train, and that's especially compounded when a guild sits at the bottleneck of the wing in an incredibly precarious position.

We (BDA) have pulled stuff to HoT (east) or the door in front of the ToV port in entrance. Taken has pulled stuff all the way to the west exit, Rampage pulls stuff up towards Mischief/Triplets. I'm not going to comment on Div because they weren't even there for dragons outside of West, they were merely farming trash that day. If Taken had communicated with Divinity that they were going to attempt an Aary pull Div probably wouldn't currently care. Forsakengard want to sit at a junction, demand you don't pull through their self imposed bottleneck, then claim train when mobs path back unaggroed.

[dafier]

Well the big problem is that the orinal thread was to discuss not pulling mobs from one wing to another. Everything else is a discussion for another thread (which raid leaders can start) and doesnt really belong in that officer thread. It acts as a distraction from the current issue.

Hence why this thread was made for non-officers to rant about.

You are correct. That thread is a mess because of mainly 2 guild leaders that are just provoking an argument instead of trying to find a fix.

They can use this thread to play the 'blame game' and point 'fingers' :D

[Rararboker]

Trust me when I say, "I'm not throwing shit at your comment by saying..."

HoT can support 2 guilds? Maybe Div and As. BDA alone wreck that place. We've proved it several times only to have what footballers call a certain foul; encroachment, occur on multiple occasions.

WHICH also includes KSing, and other shenanigans.

Divinity and asgard do fine when solo as well. Most guilds can, HOT isnt that hard. HK did with 18 people. Doesnt mean the area cant facilitate 2 groups. It just gets more cramped.

[Rararboker]

Also, do you guys even ntov? If it isnt a mob from near triplets then rampage kills it at Aary spot.

[Spyder73]

That level of excess is what the hardcore raiders of this server expect. It's not enough to have a 6k raid buffed character with full ST gear, full NToV gear, and AoW drops - it's about having 3 other alts geared like that as well and those hardcore players will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to get that loot. They would sit in Venril Sathir's room for over 100 hours just to get a kill. Taken used to straight up sock Inny for 100 hours at a time if need be. First in force would be a disaster.


As much as I hate to agree with BDA scum (Shout out to Timberlandz<BDA> from MM last night, was good grouping) - Chest pretty much hit the nail on the head. The server is full of neckbeards who will go to extreme lengths for loot. We all b!tch about Socking/NoLifing to varying degrees, but its also part of what makes actually GETTING loot so great. It is both the reason I love and hate EQ simultaneously - if it were easy I wouldn't still be playing, but it can be insanely frustrating.

If you asked me before I started playing here if I thought hundreds of adults would wait 15 hours for a P99 raid mob to spawn, I would have laughed at you. Then I witnessed 300+ people in Feerott socking a Dracoliche spawn for SIX(6) hours...This was 4 years into Kunark mind you.

The solution to all of this is IMO is more Earthquakes - Emperor Rogean seems to disagree however

[arsenalpow]

Here's my solution, root every single raid mob everywhere. Period. If you want to get rid of kites, trains, bullshit, etc root every goddamn raid mob. If it's good for the goose (ToV) it's good for the gander (everyfuckingwhere else)

Then we only have to figure out leap frogging rules. Problem solved.

[JboxCSU]

As much as I hate to agree with BDA scum (Shout out to Timberlandz<BDA> from MM last night, was good grouping) - Chest pretty much hit the nail on the head. The server is full of neckbeards who will go to extreme lengths for loot. We all b!tch about Socking/NoLifing to varying degrees, but its also part of what makes actually GETTING loot so great. It is both the reason I love and hate EQ simultaneously - if it were easy I wouldn't still be playing, but it can be insanely frustrating.

If you asked me before I started playing here if I thought hundreds of adults would wait 15 hours for a P99 raid mob to spawn, I would have laughed at you. Then I witnessed 300+ people in Feerott socking a Dracoliche spawn for SIX(6) hours...This was 4 years into Kunark mind you.

The solution to all of this is IMO is more Earthquakes - Emperor Rogean seems to disagree however

Then a guild can camp Drach for 15 hours while everyone else disperses for another target to claim.

Sounds way more reasonable to me than having everyone and their mom sit there at the same time.

[maestrom]

As much as I hate to agree with BDA scum (Shout out to Timberlandz<BDA> from MM last night, was good grouping) - Chest pretty much hit the nail on the head. The server is full of neckbeards who will go to extreme lengths for loot. We all b!tch about Socking/NoLifing to varying degrees, but its also part of what makes actually GETTING loot so great. It is both the reason I love and hate EQ simultaneously - if it were easy I wouldn't still be playing, but it can be insanely frustrating.

If you asked me before I started playing here if I thought hundreds of adults would wait 15 hours for a P99 raid mob to spawn, I would have laughed at you. Then I witnessed 300+ people in Feerott socking a Dracoliche spawn for SIX(6) hours...This was 4 years into Kunark mind you.

The solution to all of this is IMO is more Earthquakes - Emperor Rogean seems to disagree however

Let them. Let BDA sock Lendi. Let Rampage sock Aary. Let Asgard sock Doze. Let Forsaken sock Statue. Let all of them sock. While they're socking, Family of Stalwart Adventurers might get a shot at Talendor, or VS, or CT.

Everquest is a game of socking. If people are gonna do it anyways, design a system whereby the casuals can use it to claim the lowest priority targets without Uber_Alt_01 saying "FTE brah"

[Rararboker]

Problem is that raid mobs don't always spawn at the same time as each other. In fact, once enough time has elapsed since the last server restart, they are all spread pretty well.

[maestrom]

The reason FIF works now, in Velious, and really never before is that Velious, like, doubled the number of raid targets. There should be plenty of raid content for everyone, but only if you make it so that guilds have to prioritize their targets.

[JboxCSU]

Problem is that raid mobs don't always spawn at the same time as each other. In fact, once enough time has elapsed since the last server restart, they are all spread pretty well.

Cool. Know the spawn times, go sock the next spawn. If that one is getting socked, go to the next one. If that one is socked, go to the next one.

[maestrom]

Problem is that raid mobs don't always spawn at the same time as each other. In fact, once enough time has elapsed since the last server restart, they are all spread pretty well.

This is, I think, the biggest obstacle to FIF.

I don't think its a HUGE problem though. All it takes is for 3-4 high priorty Velious targets to be in window the same time as trak for a FOSA guild to sneak a trak kill.

[Rararboker]

You sound like someone who has yet to experience the p99 raid scene. If it was that simple then we wouldnt be where we are right now. Run while you still can.

[Rararboker]

That was at jbox, not maestrom.

[Culkasi]

Let them. Let BDA sock Lendi. Let Rampage sock Aary. Let Asgard sock Doze. Let Forsaken sock Statue. Let all of them sock. While they're socking, Family of Stalwart Adventurers might get a shot at Talendor, or VS, or CT.

Everquest is a game of socking. If people are gonna do it anyways, design a system whereby the casuals can use it to claim the lowest priority targets without Uber_Alt_01 saying "FTE brah"

This

[arsenalpow]

You sound like someone who has yet to experience the p99 raid scene. If it was that simple then we wouldnt be where we are right now. Run while you still can.
BreakingBadBellRing.gif

[maestrom]

You sound like someone who has yet to experience the p99 raid scene. If it was that simple then we wouldnt be where we are right now. Run while you still can.

Hehe. I've said many times that I don't raid here. But the reason I don't raid is that I don't want to participate in the FTE-train grieffest.

I participate in the camp-money-loot sockfest. Doing a 16 hour sock doesn't bug me at all. That's what netflix, juggs, and fear respawns are for.

[maestrom]

That was at jbox, not maestrom.

Haha oops! I replied anyways.

[Rararboker]

Here is the problem with maestroms suggestion as a solution. Each guild has mains and alts. Mains get camped at one mob in window and alts get camped at other targets. Then you just need 1 tracker at each mob in window to alert people so they know which mob to log in at. Now 1 guild can sock multiple mobs. Your solution would only work if people only had 1 raid rdy character. And while people like me only have 1 raid character, some people have 6 or more.

[falkun]

How does FIF work for zones with multiple dragons? 5/6 in VP can be taken with <25, does a guild FIF all of them with 25? Or does GuildA FIF one with 25, GuildB FIF's another with 25, or GuildA FIF's two with 50? What if GuildA FIF's VP with 25 and Kael with another 30?

We play on a super stable server (thanks Rogean) with internet connections and computers that will never falter. AFKing and staying connected to the server indefinitely is a very real possibility. Do you implement "AFK checks" to FIF? How do you police that?

FIF is not feasible on this server, nor is it wanted by CSR. Training has a MASSIVE amount of precedence on this server in Hate, Fear, VP, etc. Sirken has ruled multiple times that parking on the ramp/just outside Maestro in Hate is stupid, you WILL get trained, and you cannot cry foul when (not if) it happens. Why did Forgard go "Tiananmen raid force" (thanks Juev) and is now crying foul?

Also, everyone claims this was "BDA's train", yet FTE was a Taken player. How are the additional FTEs by Chest and Relbaic any different than Elemant's? They were looking for Iki, they found him, he found them. Elemant is just an idiot mage that couldn't COH himself in time to clear aggro vs. Chest and Relbaic who could FD. Pullers on this server are provided ZERO rights WHEN (again, not if) they are trained. They are out in the thick of the zone pulling, they know and accept the risks. Elemant was not in camp, therefore he is a puller. Forgard needs to train their pullers better.

[JboxCSU]

You sound like someone who has yet to experience the p99 raid scene. If it was that simple then we wouldnt be where we are right now. Run while you still can.

I'll admit I'm not in the raid scene on p99...but the rule makes sense.

Your thought was people will spend insane hours camping a raid spawn. I get that. Let them. If they desperately want a statue/AoW kill, then they can camp the fuck out of it for days on end having a sizable force in zone to engage. If they want NToV that week, fine, have your guild sit there and claim it. But you give up everything else.

It helps solves this training shit, leap frogging, and mindlessly clicking on a mob that has a wide spawn window.

What am I missing? As I mentioned before, it's the uber guilds that get fucked because they can pretty much kill at will right now. The remainder of the population not in uber guilds benefit.

[Rararboker]

See my previous post for why that doesn't stop anything. In fact it actually is how things are handled currently. Doesn't stop the main guilds from getting all the targets.

[falkun]

If they want NToV that week, fine, have your guild sit there and claim it. But you give up everything else.


How? You just leave another FIF at another target. Guilds would react to this stimulus by growing in size to FIF multiple locations/mobs. Its already happening now. AssForTaken cannot muster 40+ in a pinch to kill raid mobs. So they team up as necessary to achieve the snap numbers necessary for a kill. If they had FIF rules, they could (probably would) combine to FIF multiple locations/mobs simultaneously. Rampage would divide and conquer by FIF-ing KT and NTOV at the same time. As a mob spawns they log out at one location, get the kill, then log back into the other to FIF again. A guild is provided a maybe 10min window to overwrite FIF. The only change? Now we batphone FIF pushes instead of mob spawns. Is the server healthier because 500 are AFK FIFing?

[JboxCSU]

See my previous post for why that doesn't stop anything. In fact it actually is how things are handled currently. Doesn't stop the main guilds from getting all the targets.

A guild can only claim 1 target.

[Rararboker]

Falkun, elament was in camp. Door he was behind doesnt block aggro. And he couldn't see through the closed door to know the train was right outside. Had you been there you'd know that.

[Rararboker]

Falkun explained it well. That is why FiF wouldn't work. While it is an appealing idea it just wouldn't work out that well. Would require so much staff intervention.

[maestrom]

How does FIF work for zones with multiple dragons? 5/6 in VP can be taken with <25, does a guild FIF all of them with 25? Or does GuildA FIF one with 25, GuildB FIF's another with 25, or GuildA FIF's two with 50? What if GuildA FIF's VP with 25 and Kael with another 30?

We play on a super stable server (thanks Rogean) with internet connections and computers that will never falter. AFKing and staying connected to the server indefinitely is a very real possibility. Do you implement "AFK checks" to FIF? How do you police that?

FIF is not feasible on this server, nor is it wanted by CSR. Training has a MASSIVE amount of precedence on this server in Hate, Fear, VP, etc. Sirken has ruled multiple times that parking on the ramp/just outside Maestro in Hate is stupid, you WILL get trained, and you cannot cry foul when (not if) it happens. Why did Forgard go "Tiananmen raid force" (thanks Juev) and is now crying foul?

Also, everyone claims this was "BDA's train", yet FTE was a Taken player. How are the additional FTEs by Chest and Relbaic any different than Elemant's? They were looking for Iki, they found him, he found them. Elemant is just an idiot mage that couldn't COH himself in time to clear aggro vs. Chest and Relbaic who could FD. Pullers on this server are provided ZERO rights WHEN (again, not if) they are trained. They are out in the thick of the zone pulling, they know and accept the risks. Elemant was not in camp, therefore he is a puller. Forgard needs to train their pullers better.

Hey! Thank you for asking these types of questions. This is exactly the type of input I'm looking for.

TBH, I never raided VP. Its pretty much the only pre-GoD zone I never did. VP doesn't really look like a "gatekeeper" type zone the way the Aary is a gatekeeper for NToV. I imagine, unless there is a zone geometry reason not to (like claiming dragon B requires that dragon A be dead), a guild could just come in, and pick whichever dragon it wants to kill and claim it.

In general, my response to questions like "What if a guild does XYZ to get around the rule?" will be "Don't let them do that". In this case, I would argue that a guild is only allowed to claim one raid target game-wide. Guild_A would not be allowed to keep its main force in Necropolis and then send skeleton crews around to Kunark zones to sock those as well. You get one.

I would also not advocate any weird arbitrary restrictions on guilds like they have to be at or near the spawn point of the target in order to claim. Being in the zone is enough. No need to move from hate IZ to claim Inny. Since FTE wouldn't be the rule, there'd be no reason to sit on the ramp.

Here is the problem with maestroms suggestion as a solution. Each guild has mains and alts. Mains get camped at one mob in window and alts get camped at other targets. Then you just need 1 tracker at each mob in window to alert people so they know which mob to log in at. Now 1 guild can sock multiple mobs. Your solution would only work if people only had 1 raid rdy character. And while people like me only have 1 raid character, some people have 6 or more.

If Guild A wants to abandon its Tormax claim to try to claim trakanon then they are free to do so.

[falkun]

Falkun, elament was in camp. Door he was behind doesnt block aggro. And he couldn't see through the closed door to know the train was right outside. Had you been there you'd know that.

WRONG. Look at Hoku's Fraps:
1) Elament is the ONLY player visible in FRAPS. If he was in camp, you'd see the whole damned raid force. Is camp "in the cubby next to the stairs" or is it "on the stairs". Think of this like Chardok. When you COH in...you keep your ass in the cubby next to the stairs. Leaving the cubby is leaving camp. Its the same as safe spot in HOT. If you are not IN THE CORNER, you are out of camp and have just trained the camp (ask Taken, they've learned).
2) If the door doesn't block aggro, then why do an Elder Wyvern and and an Ancient Shard Wyvern walk by without aggroing? Why does Ikatiar walk UP the hall, TURN RIGHT and start heading TOWARDS his room BEFORE he aggros? Elemant does not aggro Ikatiar UNTIL the door is opened at 11 seconds into the FRAPS.

[Daldaen]

Variance dropped down to 2 hours (+/-1) + a server reset. Add in Sim repops 2-3 times a month

With the above you will have so many mobs overlapping spawns that no guilds could sit on them all and they wouldn't be herpderping over each other. They would be spreading out to gets these mobs.

Finding a guild already set up at KT and you hear Statue spawned 5 min ago you would likely relocate there instead of herpderping over that guild to try to get a KT. Likewise seeing Aaryonar spawn and noticing Forsaken/Asgard are set up at the stairs seeing a Dozekar pop 10min later would likely shift a guild's focus to that rather than trying to pile on top of Forsaken's camp and trying to FTE over them.

With 16 hour variance and no hard reset for over a month (the Velious sim repop helped), mobs have spread out across 4-5 days and almost never are they overlapping even with there being so many targets in Velious.

[falkun]

In this case, I would argue that a guild is only allowed to claim one raid target game-wide. You get one.

And that will result in circumstances akin to the Class-R rotation. At the beginning of the rotation there were a few guilds (Divinity, BDA, Taken, 1-2 others). By the end, there were 8? 11? Asgard, Azure Guard, Omni, etc. all were able to survive/thrive in an environment where their mobs were guaranteed. Forsaken took the avenue of trying to circumventing the class system by reforming. So you have GuildA that splits 25 members into GuildA2 to FIF a second target, they're a different guild now! How do you police that?

I'm all for spreading the kills around, especially with as many targets as exist with Velious, but this system does nothing to spread kills to more players, they just will fly different (temporary) banners.

[falkun]

Completely agree Dald, server repops helped Kunark immensely, not sure why they have been all but eliminated. They were also the most fun types of spawns and imho created the least amount of server drama/petitionquest.

[JboxCSU]

And that will result in circumstances akin to the Class-R rotation. At the beginning of the rotation there were a few guilds (Divinity, BDA, Taken, 1-2 others). By the end, there were 8? 11? Asgard, Azure Guard, Omni, etc. all were able to survive/thrive in an environment where their mobs were guaranteed. Forsaken took the avenue of trying to circumventing the class system by reforming. So you have GuildA that splits 25 members into GuildA2 to FIF a second target, they're a different guild now! How do you police that?

I'm all for spreading the kills around, especially with as many targets as exist with Velious, but this system does nothing to spread kills to more players, they just will fly different (temporary) banners.

It ain't perfect, but it's better than what we got.

If a guild split so they can claim 2-3 mobs, then they can do that. Would be tough to maintain a presence at their desired targets with the reduced numbers.

[maestrom]

And that will result in circumstances akin to the Class-R rotation. At the beginning of the rotation there were a few guilds (Divinity, BDA, Taken, 1-2 others). By the end, there were 8? 11? Asgard, Azure Guard, Omni, etc. all were able to survive/thrive in an environment where their mobs were guaranteed. Forsaken took the avenue of trying to circumventing the class system by reforming. So you have GuildA that splits 25 members into GuildA2 to FIF a second target, they're a different guild now! How do you police that?

I'm all for spreading the kills around, especially with as many targets as exist with Velious, but this system does nothing to spread kills to more players, they just will fly different (temporary) banners.

More people getting to experience more content is better. I don't see 11 raid guilds as a bad thing, especially now that we have literally twice as many raid targets as we had 4 months ago.

As for Forsaken breaking up to get around the rules. Predictably, my solution is "Don't let them do that."

In order to claim a target under FIF, you must be in One raid guild. If they want to break into 4 guilds to farm trak, let them. There will never be 36 Forsaken_3's in a zone to claim a bigger target.

[Rararboker]

If people weren't pulling it to wtov it wouldn't be an issue. I was there in ntov when it all happened. That video only shows the door from iki side. Elament jumped up there when it was closed and couldn't see the mobs. No clue who opened it. But it isnt exactly prof either way as you couldn't see what was going on on the other side.

[falkun]

As for Forsaken breaking up to get around the rules. Predictably, my solution is "Don't let them do that."

How do you monitor this? Do you know all of Rampage's third alts when they splinter to <Inglorious Cucumbers> to FIF Statue while Rampage stays in NTOV? I know I don't. So then I'm relying on CSR to do that, which if CSR was more involved, we wouldn't need this conversation about "don't train" because CSR would stop us for training. You want something that is self policing with rules that cannot be self policed. Back to the drawing board.

[Rararboker]

It is a real conundrum.

[falkun]

If people weren't pulling it to wtov it wouldn't be an issue. I was there in ntov when it all happened. That video only shows the door from iki side. Elament jumped up there when it was closed and couldn't see the mobs. No clue who opened it. But it isnt exactly prof either way as you couldn't see what was going on on the other side.

So you admit Elament jumped up there. Fantastic, why did Elament leave camp? He is now a puller because he is out of camp. Congratulations, your puller got FTE and brought Ikatair to camp, what is the problem? Oh, he brought two adds? Why did your puller train your camp? Oh, you weren't ready for the engage? Why did your puller have FTE if you were not ready to kill? These are all INTERNAL guild matters, why are you plastering them over the forums crying foul?

[Rararboker]

You seem to have a strenuous grasp of p99 rules and mechanics. Until those mobs made it back to their spawn points and reset, it was bda responsibility (since they were last fte before elament). It really isn't hard to figure out. Taken and rampage both concede and admit to wrong doing when they do this stuff. It is how things are handled in ntov.

[maestrom]

How do you monitor this? Do you know all of Rampage's third alts when they splinter to <Inglorious Cucumbers> to FIF Statue while Rampage stays in NTOV? I know I don't. So then I'm relying on CSR to do that, which if CSR was more involved, we wouldn't need this conversation about "don't train" because CSR would stop us for training. You want something that is self policing with rules that cannot be self policed. Back to the drawing board.

Well lets not forget reality. Rampage has how many physical people?

I don't know how many people it takes to actually knock down these targets reliably, there seems to be a fair bit of wiping up in NToV. Does it take 60? 70? If Rampage has 60 people holding FIF on Aary in NToV, do they really have another 50 to hold FIF on statue? Thats 110 people logged in, on raid chars, not on twinks or off in other zones farming loot. I don't think Rampage is that big. Maybe they are but I'd say probably not.

I don't think Rampage, or any guild, is large enough to fracture into two smaller guilds that can, independently of each other, tackle big Velious targets. And if they are, If they get NToV and Statue, BDA can take Tormax, Forsaken can take Lendi, so on and so on, Omni can take Lodi,

[JboxCSU]

How do you monitor this? Do you know all of Rampage's third alts when they splinter to <Inglorious Cucumbers> to FIF Statue while Rampage stays in NTOV? I know I don't. So then I'm relying on CSR to do that, which if CSR was more involved, we wouldn't need this conversation about "don't train" because CSR would stop us for training. You want something that is self policing with rules that cannot be self policed. Back to the drawing board.

This confuses me - so since CSR is absent, guild are disobeying rules without recourse. So we must come up with rules that can be self policing...but that's the root of the problem, guilds are not self policing. So why have any rules?

I don't think you can dismiss FIF because it requires CSR support...anything minus complete fucking anarchy requires CSR support/enforcement.

[Juevento]

Using that insane logic (does Detoxx give you all advanced syphilis or some other malady that effects your mental capacities), then Elamant was responsible for the train once he had fte. Do you see why that fails to compute?

[falkun]

You seem to have a strenuous grasp of p99 rules and mechanics. Until those mobs made it back to their spawn points and reset, it was bda responsibility (since they were last fte before elament). It really isn't hard to figure out. Taken and rampage both concede and admit to wrong doing when they do this stuff. It is how things are handled in ntov.

So because Taken pulls a mob from NTOV to WTOV, dies/FDs/COH/rezzes and BDA are next on FTE its now their train? Ikatair was still out of his room, initially moved by Taken. Why is it not Taken's train?

Let's look at this by removing BDA. If Chest/Relbaic had not FTE'd after Taken, Ikatair would still be out of lair due to a Taken pull, Elament would STILL be out of camp because he's an idiot, and Forgard would still have died to Ikatair and his adds. It was not BDA's train, it existed before BDA touched Ikatair. Elament still has not anti-train protections because he was an idiot mage out of camp.

Where does Forgard take responsibility for keeping their pullers from training their own raid and their raid members from not leaving camp?

[arsenalpow]

It wasn't a train, those mobs were happily pathing back.

Right now it seems like the most valid strat is to have a camp away from every other fuxking guild, and the second best strat is to stand in the middle of a freeway and demand concessions anytime a car clips you.

This game is stupid.

[falkun]

You seem to have a strenuous grasp of p99 rules and mechanics. Until those mobs made it back to their spawn points and reset, it was bda responsibility (since they were last fte before elament). It really isn't hard to figure out. Taken and rampage both concede and admit to wrong doing when they do this stuff. It is how things are handled in ntov.

You argue since BDA had FTE it is our train. OK, Ikatair is unaggroed and Elament gets FTE, it is now your train by the VERY SAME LOGIC.

[Nibblewitz]

I've said it a thousand times, gnomes make the best mages.

[maestrom]

It wasn't a train, those mobs were happily pathing back.

Right now it seems like the most valid strat is to have a camp away from every other fuxking guild, and the second best strat is to stand in the middle of a freeway and demand concessions anytime a car clips you.

This game is stupid.

Honest question.

Whats the respawn on the trash?

[dafier]

Divinity and asgard do fine when solo as well. Most guilds can, HOT isnt that hard. HK did with 18 people. Doesnt mean the area cant facilitate 2 groups. It just gets more cramped.

Not arguing that either. 10-4

[dafier]

I've said it a thousand times, gnomes make the best mages.

Petitioning to appease you.

[Orruar]

You crazy kids.

[dafier]

Careful, you don't want to get mixed up with a Warlock!

http://www.fitfabceleb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/charliesheen.jpg

[Juevento]

Honest question.

Whats the respawn on the trash?

FYI trash respawn is 72 mins.

[Kluwen1]

Let me clarify encroachment:

BDA already in HoT. No one else there. (JUST AN EXAMPLE) Asgard shows up and starts pulling mobs that start spawning back to the point of peeling/KSing off BDA monks.

I can assure you this comment is 100% false.

[arsenalpow]

I can assure you this comment is 100% false.

Going to disagree with you. Asgard and HK both liked to claim FTE and drag mobs off our pullers, which is when I would take the entire BDA Zerg and drop camp them on top of whichever guild was peeling our mobs. You can't really peel a mob if it's always going to the same place.

[Kluwen1]

Going to disagree with you. Asgard and HK both liked to claim FTE and drag mobs off our pullers, which is when I would take the entire BDA Zerg and drop camp them on top of whichever guild was peeling our mobs. You can't really peel a mob if it's always going to the same place.

Your pullers need to /assist the mob before pulling then because prior to your raid force coming and parking on top of ours, one of your monks tried to pull a wurm off of my druid who got initial aggro and when I realized the mob wasn't following me I used my bladestopper. It's funny how you try to play the good guy though.

[falkun]

Bladestopper aggro doesn't care who had FTE. Clicking a charge and having the mob run after you doesn't prove you have FTE, just that you have more aggro. This is how tons of pulls are executed on P99.

[falkun]

I'm not saying you did or did not have FTE, just that clicking a bladestopper charge proves nothing.

[dafier]

I can assure you this comment is 100% false.

LOL ...

Thanks I needed that.

[Man0warr]

Falkun, elament was in camp. Door he was behind doesnt block aggro. And he couldn't see through the closed door to know the train was right outside. Had you been there you'd know that.

Maybe they should fix it so the doors work like they did on Live.

And also remove all the non-classic Flurry drakes to make it so more spots in NToV can be used as staging grounds.

[Kluwen1]

Bladestopper aggro doesn't care who had FTE. Clicking a charge and having the mob run after you doesn't prove you have FTE, just that you have more aggro. This is how tons of pulls are executed on P99.

Trust me I understand how FTE works. The mob I'm referring to had proximity aggro on me and no I wasn't sitting.

[falkun]

Maybe they should fix it so the doors work like they did on Live.

And also remove all the non-classic Flurry drakes to make it so more spots in NToV can be used as staging grounds.

Looking at the fraps that door does block LOS...the first 2 trash drakes do not aggro and Ikatair only aggros AFTER the door is open. The two trash wyverns then social aggro off of Ikatair. That's how I see it.

[arsenalpow]

Looking at the fraps that door does block LOS...the first 2 trash drakes do not aggro and Ikatair only aggros AFTER the door is open. The two trash wyverns then social aggro off of Ikatair. That's how I see it.

I don't think the door blocks aggro, the act of Elament stepping up out of the cubby is what caught the aggro, opening the door wouldn't have mattered if he was out of the cubby, he was going to get caught regardless. The door being opened just gave us an even better vantage point.

[Man0warr]

I don't think he aggroed until Elementae got out of the cubby and up to the door though, regardless of it being open/closed.

We have proven that the door to HoT does nothing (the roamer outside will aggro through the door if you are fighting mobs on the other side) so I just assume that all doors in ToV do nothing.

[falkun]

So its just by server tick or when Elaments jumps out of the cubby that Ikatair does not aggro until he's turned right back towards his room? Either way, Elaments left camp.

[arsenalpow]

Elaments left camp.

That.

[Man0warr]

Yeah it wouldn't have aggro'ed if he stayed in the cubby.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I am fairly sure this thread is generated by a new chat-bot program the devs are working on.

[arsenalpow]

BUT HE WOULDNT HAVE HAD TO STAY IN THE CUBBY IF PEOPLE WERENT PULLING MOBS EVERYWHERE!!!

[falkun]

And we've come full cycle. Fuck BDA!

[maestrom]

And we've come full cycle. Fuck BDA!

YEAH!

[arsenalpow]

Anytime TMO or Asgard yells about trains or conceding or lawyering I just imagine they are some frothing mad SEC superfan like from the Paul Finebaum show.

BDA ARE A BUNCH OF CHEATERS, DETOXX IS THE BEST GUILDLEADER THERE IS. ROLL DAMN TIDE!!!11!!

[dafier]

You guys know that famous 50DKP minus TS capture from the WOW Onyxia raid?

Elaments = guy who agros the welps.

[dafier]

Crushem

[Malevz]

Don't know much about blue, was just poking around the boards, but... you have multiple guilds in NToV at once? That seems like a bad idea.

[falkun]

The idea was tossed around a few pages back to just make blue one large mega guild like on Red. Could Call it <Rampaging D'at AssForTaken>.

[slappytwotoes]

The idea was tossed around a few pages back to just make blue one large mega guild like on Red. Could Call it <Rampaging D'at AssForTaken>.

Rofl

[slappytwotoes]

The best thing for the server would be all 5-7 day spawns pop only due to Sim Repop. Have a Sim Repop on a random day once a week.

Sirken, Rogean... you're welcome.

[Malevz]

70ish is a mega guild? So the 4 guilds in NToV each raid with 15?

[Raev]

If you asked me before I started playing here if I thought hundreds of adults would wait 15 hours for a P99 raid mob to spawn, I would have laughed at you. Then I witnessed 300+ people in Feerott socking a Dracoliche spawn for SIX(6) hours...This was 4 years into Kunark mind you.

The solution to all of this is IMO is more Earthquakes - Emperor Rogean seems to disagree however

EverQuest is designed as a dungeon crawl. You enter a cool new zone with friends (maybe a LOT of friends if said zone is ToV). You gradually move forward, and the zone gets more and more dangerous (and rewarding). Eventually you figure out that zone and move on to something else.

Project 1999's slow pace of progression completely changes the nature of the game. On live, successful guilds required high playtime but above all creativity to figure out the best way to beat the new content. After 4-5 years, even an idiot can level to 60, figure out basic raid strategy, and join BDA. Once everyone is playing with roughly the same strategies and gear, the only way to compete is through playing time.

And it seems this is exactly what is happening with Velious (disclaimer: I haven't played in 2 months, so this could all be nonsense). Rampage came into Velious with the most gear and the best strategies and dominated. But now that the other guilds are picking up more gear and aping the strategies, I predict the raid scene will slowly revert to something closer to Kunark (although not as bad) where time spent is the primary metric.

I pushed for years for more simulated repops, because that makes strategy more valuable. For whatever reason, Rogean insists on repopping the server manually. <shrug>

[Malevz]

Sorry math was off, 17.5 each. Still impressive!

[maestrom]

The best thing for the server would be all 5-7 day spawns pop only due to Sim Repop. Have a Sim Repop on a random day once a week.

Sirken, Rogean... you're welcome.

I've floated this idea in the past for the progression servers.

Simultaneous spawning of all raid targets across all expansions. Really forces guilds to pick which targets they want, lets casual raid guilds raid an expansion behind or so without having to worry about the train-fest.

[stonez138]

A train without aggro is not a train, dumbass. If you got caught by mobs returning to their last point, you weren't trained, you facepulled and are now FTE.

So dumb. So if I agro FG's in solb and then FD I didn't train anyone since the train doesn't have agro any more? Or if I DA and zone and the mobs path back and kill people I didn't train anyone? It's their fault they face pulled the giants.

[slappytwotoes]

I've floated this idea in the past for the progression servers.

Simultaneous spawning of all raid targets across all expansions. Really forces guilds to pick which targets they want, lets casual raid guilds raid an expansion behind or so without having to worry about the train-fest.

Exactly. This eliminates tracking, allows smaller guilds to raid, and just as classic as variance (servers went down all the time on live). Raid bosses stay up longer.

It avoids zone congestion which promotes server health as guilds spread out over Norrath. Fewer petitions as guilds avoid each other to seek uncontested targets rather than waste time training/wiping each other.

Lastly... its a ton of fun! The 6-year anniversary repop was a blast. Everyone got loot, you had to work together, it was hard at times and plenty of tension. You won some, you lost some. Was really everything I play EQ for at the endgame.

VOTE Sim Repop for president!

[dafier]

Point taken stonez138. However regarding the ikki pull, BDA did NOT train anyone. We pulled brilliantly and curious cats got killed even though they already knew what was going on and where it was happening.

[jcr4990]

Yea I've personally said forever that I feel all raid targets in the game should ONLY repop on a sim repop that happens randomly once a week or so. Maybe excluding stuff like Vindi since it already spawns 3 times a day. Raiding is the most fun when theres a sim repop imo. Mobilization and strategy become hugely important. No guild can get all the good targets to themselves for obvious reasons and everyone gets pixels. Instead of 3-4 different guilds all competing for the same target all the time.

I can't imagine it would be hard to write a script to trigger earthquakes once a week?

[Man0warr]

No guild is against more simulated repops, I don't know why Rogean resists it.

There are 4-5x as many high end raid guilds on P99 than there was in any single expansion on a Live server.

At most you had a server with 3 guilds clearing the bleeding edge content.

[captnamazing]

i'm in favor of anything that promotes more RP in the raid-scene

[Maner]

Looking at the fraps that door does block LOS...the first 2 trash drakes do not aggro and Ikatair only aggros AFTER the door is open. The two trash wyverns then social aggro off of Ikatair. That's how I see it.

Spoken like someone who has never been in ntov before. How about you refrain from making uneducated assumptions until you ha e experienced it first hand kiddo.

[Maner]

Yeah it wouldn't have aggro'ed if he stayed in the cubby.

More cubby talk from the ntov virgins. Sorry but the cubby isn't the entirety of the camp. You are free to move around the stairs no problem unless nub guilds are pulling ntov to wtov without giving any warning or letting people know their trains are pathing back. Just take responsibility for your fuck up and stop blaming everyone else. There were 150 people rezzing on the other side of that door, how do you propose everyone stays in the cubby?

[Rararboker]

The bda spin machine is good. Even I almost bought into it, and I was in ntov for it all!

[Clockw0rk]

Was this because there was gm's doing their jobs? Cuz if so, apples and oranges. There is no gm'ing now. It is ffa. But I appreciate your memories. Maybe someday in the eq old folks home you can share in more detail.

Nah, there didn't need to be GM's involved. That's the whole point. The entitlement levels and scrubs have risen vastly to overwhelm the server to create this current environment. It was all within the hands of the players back then as it is now.

[falkun]

Little late Maner. I've already been corrected about door mechanics. However, the cubby was still safe and Elament still left camp to poke his head where it didn't belong.

[Rararboker]

Hasn't been an issue while it was just us and rampage.

[Man0warr]

More cubby talk from the ntov virgins. Sorry but the cubby isn't the entirety of the camp. You are free to move around the stairs no problem unless nub guilds are pulling ntov to wtov without giving any warning or letting people know their trains are pathing back. Just take responsibility for your fuck up and stop blaming everyone else. There were 150 people rezzing on the other side of that door, how do you propose everyone stays in the cubby?

Sounds like a terrible camp spot then if your whole raid force can't fit into the safe spot.

Everyone knows Detoxx is claiming that spot just so he can cry wolf when he gets "trained" by unaggroed mobs so he can lawyerquest a concession.