Hey Forsaken

[Samoht]

Let me know if you have a cogent argument about the Forsaken issue.

Seems mine and Rogean's opinions align on the issue. That's proably all that matters.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti,

1) In your esteemed* opinion, can a group of players go from Class C to Class R en masse without waiting for the 30-day cooldown period by merely changing their guild and therefore escaping (purposely or not) any restrictions, lockouts, sanctions, suspensions, or other conditions applied to their original guild? Yes or no.

If yes, how does one ensure players aren't switching guilds en masse to avoid any sort of restrictions, lockouts, sanctions, suspensions, or other conditions applied to the original guild?

If no, what the fuck have you been arguing about for the last 15 pages?

* lol

Side question:

What is the point of the class system. Isn't the point to allow guilds to get raid targets without having to fight the top 1, 2 guilds?
If so which class R guilds are allowed? Who decides this? Is the point of class R really just to limit the guilds participating to reduce the rotation size?

What this really seems like is BDA and others getting pissed that their might be more mouths to feed in the future that won't be in the guild that they approve.
That pixel lust.

[slappytwotoes]

Fookin Cloonies turned this into Who's the bigger Autist competition

[Samoht]

1) In my opinion, this 1 statement is too broad. I'm sure you realize that though and are just trying to support your agenda.

Assuming we are following the current raid rules (which I find idiotic to begin with) I would fix that statement by saying you can't skirt punishments assigned to a group of people for bad behavior and you can't skip lockouts. However if you are reforming, or rebranding or splitting off from a guild, you should be allowed to switch classes to R as long as you don't kill a class C mob.

The problem with some people in this forum is they try to label Forsaken as just new TMO. That isn't the case. Forsaken does consist of many ex TMO players... but many players stayed in TMO also or rerolled red... or apped to other guilds. This is a true guild split which created an entirely new entity. New DKP, Leaders, Rules, Memberbase, guild bank, etc etc.

It is convenient for Class R to try to label them as TMO because it supports the agenda of all things TMO are evil(1) and the agenda of maximizing their (being current Class R members)loot potential(2).

Side question:

What is the point of the class system. Isn't the point to allow guilds to get raid targets without having to fight the top 1, 2 guilds?
If so which class R guilds are allowed? Who decides this? Is the point of class R really just to limit the guilds participating to reduce the rotation size?

What this really seems like is BDA and others getting pissed that their might be more mouths to feed in the future that won't be in the guild that they approve.
That pixel lust.

^^^ More non-answer answers from Alarti. Dodging the questions. Arguing semantics. Why does this fool even bother?

[Alarti0001]

Alarti,

1) In your esteemed* opinion, can a group of players go from Class C to Class R en masse without waiting for the 30-day cooldown period by merely changing their guild and therefore escaping (purposely or not) any restrictions, lockouts, sanctions, suspensions, or other conditions applied to their original guild? Yes or no.

If yes, how does one ensure players aren't switching guilds en masse to avoid any sort of restrictions, lockouts, sanctions, suspensions, or other conditions applied to the original guild?

If no, what the fuck have you been arguing about for the last 15 pages?

* lol

Seems mine and Rogean's opinions align on the issue. That's proably all that matters.

Proably all that will matter.


But I can't help point out your logical fallacy :)
Appeal to authority (argumentum ab auctoritate) – where an assertion is deemed true because of the position or authority of the person asserting it

[Alarti0001]

^^^ More non-answer answers from Alarti. Dodging the questions. Arguing semantics. Why does this fool even bother?

Debate the argument, not the person... if you can. Can you?
nahhh

[Samoht]

Appeal to authority (argumentum ab auctoritate) – where an assertion is deemed true because of the position or authority of the person asserting it

Remind me who's box this is, again?

[Samoht]

Debate the argument, not the person... if you can. Can you?
nahhh

Just answer the questions. It looks like Yendor dumbed them down enough for you, but you can't even properly answer yes or no questions.

[Seltius]

Sum 1 gon get maced

LOL oh noooo.

[Troubled]

http://i.imgur.com/8FgVjB4.jpg
egads

ps Alarti is basically Cloki on crack with 20 less iq.

[Alarti0001]

Just answer the questions. It looks like Yendor dumbed them down enough for you, but you can't even properly answer yes or no questions.

Yendor's question had unrelated variables. The questions were answered. It was a false construct.

[Alarti0001]

http://i.imgur.com/8FgVjB4.jpg
egads

ps Alarti is basically Cloki on crack with 20 less iq.

If multiple people debate a point with you do you just stare off into space and not respond?

Asperger's symptoms
Not pick up on social cues and may lack inborn social skills such as being able to start or maintain a conversation and take turns talking.

[Corpsed]

Yendor's query had disparate variables. The inquiries were retorted. It was a fabricated paradigm.

[Troubled]

If multiple people debate a point with you do you just stare off into space and not respond?

Asperger's symptoms
Not pick up on social cues and may lack inborn social skills such as being able to start or maintain a conversation and take turns talking.

No I post 41 times saying the same thing over and over that nobody reads.

[arsenalpow]

In true BDA fashion I'm not even on the podium.

[falkun]

Alarti has to be #1 at something.

[Faron]

alarti is the king of turning a debate into a debate about debating. He's one of these stupid fucks that took a political science class and thinks he's now the master of logic.

[dafier]

Appeal to authority (argumentum ab auctoritate) – where an assertion is deemed true because of the position or authority of the person asserting it

Like a horse with blinders, or a totalitarian. Copy and paste from an online dictionary is fun!

[Alarti0001]

No I post 41 times saying the same thing over and over that nobody reads.

This might be something you won't understand Troubled, but my motivation in a discussion is not the viewership count or if I'm being entertaining. I am debating with 1-3 people and responding to their posts. So obviously someone is reading it.

[Alarti0001]

alarti is the king of turning a debate into a debate about debating. He's one of these stupid fucks that took a political science class and thinks he's now the master of logic.

Not sure if you know what you learn in a Political Science class.

[dafier]

alarti is the king of turning a debate into a debate about debating. He's one of these stupid fucks that took a political science class and thinks he's now the master of logic.

You have to have logic to master it. He possesses neither.

[Troubled]

This might be something you won't understand Troubled, but my motivation in a discussion is not the viewership count or if I'm being entertaining.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd228/TorqueO/Antifirearmpeople_zps6fec5d96.jpg

[Samoht]

It looks like my work here is done.

[Alarti0001]

It looks like my work here is done.

If you intention was to make a fool of yourself while you backpedaled from every argument you made then yes.. you did a damn good job. Run away now kiddo.

[Troubled]

http://i.imgur.com/GZlP48m.jpg

[Samoht]

If you intention was to make a fool of yourself while you backpedaled from every argument you made then yes.. you did a damn good job. Run away now kiddo.

I'm not sure what backpedaling is or how the term is applied to the ridicule you're receiving. Can you please copy/pasta a definition for me from Google or Wikipedia? Maybe that will help with my reading comprehension.

Thanks in advance.

[Alarti0001]

I'm not sure what backpedaling is or how the term is applied to the ridicule you're receiving. Can you please copy/pasta a definition for me from Google or Wikipedia? Maybe that will help with my reading comprehension.

Thanks in advance.

Oh... you think ridicule from BDA makes your argument correct? Another logical fallacy.

[Samoht]

Oh... you think ridicule from BDA makes your argument correct? Another logical fallacy.

Prove it.

[Alarti0001]

Prove it.

Oh come on you know how much I like proving it.

argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

Argumentum ad hominem – the evasion of the actual topic by directing an attack at your opponent.

Ad hominem – attacking the arguer instead of the argument.
Poisoning the well – a type of ad hominem where adverse information about a target is presented with the intention of discrediting everything that the target person says.[61]
Abusive fallacy – a subtype of "ad hominem" when it turns into verbal abuse of the opponent rather than arguing about the originally proposed argument.[62]


Proved it so hard.

[Kushie]

Alarti still sharts out his fingers.

[Uggme]

If you intention was to make a fool of yourself while you backpedaled from every argument you made then yes.. you did a damn good job. Run away now kiddo.

Despite being completely owned, your imbecilic mind is still able to fabricate a fantasy scenario where you somehow 'won'.

I almost envy you. That's some next level imagination there.

The fact is you made no actual point, and resorted to petty nitpicking when it was pointed out that you were spouting off nonsense. You couldn't even formulate an actual thought when presented the chance to correct yourself!

Your spouse must have a lot of patience to have to communicate with you daily, in person. I sure as hell wouldn't.

[Samoht]

Oh come on you know how much I like proving it.

argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

Argumentum ad hominem – the evasion of the actual topic by directing an attack at your opponent.

Ad hominem – attacking the arguer instead of the argument.
Poisoning the well – a type of ad hominem where adverse information about a target is presented with the intention of discrediting everything that the target person says.[61]
Abusive fallacy – a subtype of "ad hominem" when it turns into verbal abuse of the opponent rather than arguing about the originally proposed argument.[62]


Proved it so hard.

I might need to update the quote in my sig. Can you condense this nonsense down to one or two lines for me, please?

[Faron]

lol look at this dumbass namedropping vocabulary from his 101 notebook. hey fatty, you're talking about an 70 year old elf simulator and arguing over who clicks their buttons the best. pointing out logical fallacies in a discussion over who is the sweatiest nerd makes you look like the a fucking loser

[arsenalpow]

According to a raven, tattersail and tehtra were judged for their sins. NJ rampage.

[arsenalpow]

Wrong thread. I'm probably retarded.

[dafier]

Oh... you think ridicule from BDA makes your argument correct? Another logical fallacy.

You keep using that word, fallacy. I do not think you know what that means.

**I stole that from the Princess Bride. ;)

[dafier]

Wrong thread. I'm probably retarded.

No bro, you aren't. This thread is though. :D

[Samoht]

You keep using that word, fallacy. I do not think you know what that means.

**I stole that from the Princess Bride. ;)

Is there a logical fallacy for thinking that copying and pasting the definitions for different types of logical fallacies will make you look like any less of a retard?

[Alarti0001]

Despite being completely owned, your imbecilic mind is still able to fabricate a fantasy scenario where you somehow 'won'.

The fact is you made no actual point, and resorted to petty nitpicking when it was pointed out that you were spouting off nonsense. You couldn't even formulate an actual thought when presented the chance to correct yourself!

Your spouse must have a lot of patience to have to communicate with you daily, in person. I sure as hell wouldn't.

Where did I get owned? I made points earlier... no one refuted them.

Also who argues with a woman? You never win even when you do win.

[Ella`Ella]

Total posts in thread -

Alarti0001 49
Samoht 40
Clark 22
arsenalpow 18

Yikes!

[dafier]

Is there a logical fallacy for thinking that copying and pasting the definitions for different types of logical fallacies will make you look like any less of a retard?

Umm....I had to think about a decent response but the only thing I can respond with is:

Fooling a fool is foolish in itself.

[Champion_Standing]

Total posts in thread -

Alarti0001 49
Samoht 40
Clark 22
arsenalpow 18

Yikes!

Total dignity in thread: 0

[YendorLootmonkey]

1) In my opinion, this 1 statement is too broad. I'm sure you realize that though and are just trying to support your agenda.

So basically "Answering your question would destroy the rest of the straws I'm grasping at, so I will modify your question to give myself wiggle room, and answer that instead." Got it.

Assuming we are following the current raid rules (which I find idiotic to begin with) I would fix that statement by saying you can't skirt punishments assigned to a group of people for bad behavior and you can't skip lockouts.

Yes, Alarti, the entire argument is based on the current reality of the raid rules, not what you do or don't find idiotic. I didn't ask you to modify my question and cherry pick the conditions that you felt should only apply.

However if you are reforming, or rebranding or splitting off from a guild, you should be allowed to switch classes to R as long as you don't kill a class C mob.

So you believe only the punitive actions should follow a player, as well as a lockout. So why do you draw the line at a lockout and not a cool-down period? Both are restrictions created to ensure guilds aren't taking more than their fair share. Interestingly enough, one potentially restricts Class R guilds if they were trying to reform, and one potentially restricts Class C guilds if they were trying to reform.

So, Alarti, why do you feel the Class R restriction (lockouts) should follow a group of players to their re-formed guild, and not the Class C restriction (C to R cooldown period)?

The problem with some people in this forum is they try to label Forsaken as just new TMO. That isn't the case. Forsaken does consist of many ex TMO players... but many players stayed in TMO also or rerolled red... or apped to other guilds. This is a true guild split which created an entirely new entity. New DKP, Leaders, Rules, Memberbase, guild bank, etc etc.

But you just said punitive measures and certain cherrypicked restrictions should follow players when they swap guilds en masse, so technically "whether Forsaken is a new entity or not" doesn't even need to be considered. The issue now is "what restrictions follow those players over to the new guild when it is clear to any reasonable person that the majority of the new guild consists of members from the original guild" and the fact you're cherrypicking.

It is convenient for Class R to try to label them as TMO because it supports the agenda of all things TMO are evil(1) and the agenda of maximizing their (being current Class R members)loot potential(2).

LOL, you honestly don't think there would have been a similar calling out of a guild in Class R if they reformed to evade a lockout restriction?

This isn't about TMO/Forsaken against the server or Class R. This has ALWAYS been about consistency in the interpretation/application of the rules so every guild understands what is and isn't allowed in the spirit of fair competition, however you define "competition".

[Seltius]

You keep using that word, fallacy. I do not think you know what that means.

**I stole that from the Princess Bride. ;)

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

If your going to steal a line from a movie and then give credit to the movie at least quote it right!


Jk needed to break up the cycle of 2 Cloonies and their loony breakdown.

[Alarti0001]

So basically "Answering your question would destroy the rest of the straws I'm grasping at, so I will modify your question to give myself wiggle room, and answer that instead." Got it.


No basically your questions contained unrelated variables that you through into a question that had no meaning and only supported your statement. Unfortunately, your question didn't represent the debate or reality.


Yes, Alarti, the entire argument is based on the current reality of the raid rules, not what you do or don't find idiotic. I didn't ask you to modify my question and cherry pick the conditions that you felt should only apply.


Ummmm you kind of asked for my OPINION about a situation. If you read my position early in the thread you would realize my grievance is mainly with the idiotic raid rules.


So you believe only the punitive actions should follow a player, as well as a lockout. So why do you draw the line at a lockout and not a cool-down period? Both are restrictions created to ensure guilds aren't taking more than their fair share. Interestingly enough, one potentially restricts Class R guilds if they were trying to reform, and one potentially restricts Class C guilds if they were trying to reform.

So, Alarti, why do you feel the Class R restriction (lockouts) should follow a group of players to their re-formed guild, and not the Class C restriction (C to R cooldown period)?


Who said anything about a lockout? I clearly said that a new guild should be able to be class R unless they kill a Class C mob which dictated by the rules would set them to Class C. Forsaken hadn't killed a Class C mob. Still don't see where I said anything about a lockout.


But you just said punitive measures and certain cherrypicked restrictions should follow players when they swap guilds en masse, so technically "whether Forsaken is a new entity or not" doesn't even need to be considered. The issue now is "what restrictions follow those players over to the new guild when it is clear to any reasonable person that the majority of the new guild consists of members from the original guild" and the fact you're cherrypicking.


It seems you are doing the cherrypicking. Punitive measures are assigned to all individuals in a guild class restrictions should be assigned to guilds. Are you are saying that if a TMO member apped to Taken and can now not raid class R mobs for 30 days.
Is the majority of Forsaken the majority of TMO? If TMO instead splintered into 3-4 guilds...are all those guilds Class C? Where do you draw the line?
If Forsaken instead merged with Taken... would they be Class R or Class C? If Forsaken merged into A-Team instead of taking a new guild name would they be Class R or Class C?
You are trying to fight phantom problems. Are you pro-border fence?


LOL, you honestly don't think there would have been a similar calling out of a guild in Class R if they reformed to evade a lockout restriction?


This isn't about TMO/Forsaken against the server or Class R. This has ALWAYS been about consistency in the interpretation/application of the rules so every guild understands what is and isn't allowed in the spirit of fair competition, however you define "competition".

Why would I care if class R is calling out other class R guilds about lockout restrictions other than entertainment value. Also, this isn't a lockout discussion.

Is it not though? Because the rules don't seem intelligent or fair.

[Big_Japan]

anyone else think "Foreskin" every time they see the Forsaken tag?

[Kingore]

What makes Forsaken different then TMO is they left behind things such as the guild bank and trackers that do not belong to them. That is what makes this not a circumvention of the class system.

I was a TMO raid leader that could not understand the raid rules, as someone said TMO raid leaders clearly do. In fact, I even work in a job where I read legal contracts and I could not figure out the rules here.

Quite honestly this move was not a TMO sanctioned activity and should not be seen as such.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Who said anything about a lockout? I clearly said that a new guild should be able to be class R unless they kill a Class C mob which dictated by the rules would set them to Class C. Forsaken hadn't killed a Class C mob. Still don't see where I said anything about a lockout.

WTF? You are dipping, dodging, and diving so much you can't even keep your argument coherent anymore.

Assuming we are following the current raid rules (which I find idiotic to begin with) I would fix that statement by saying you can't skirt punishments assigned to a group of people for bad behavior and you can't skip lockouts.

[Magifyre]

anyone else think "Foreskin" every time they see the Forsaken tag?

Every time.

[Ciroco]

This thread is no longer relevant to my interes

[Alarti0001]

WTF? You are dipping, dodging, and diving so much you can't even keep your argument coherent anymore.

Class doesn't have lockouts per se other than individual mob suspensions. Since you used lockouts in your statement about a class C guild I figured you were intending something along that line... since it would be inherently stupid to worry about lockouts on a class that doesn't.... have them.

If you want you can just throw suspension in there and remove lockouts altogether. As I said your question had a lot of inapplicable variables.

[Ciroco]

ts

[Alarti0001]

WTF? You are dipping, dodging, and diving so much you can't even keep your argument coherent anymore.

Assuming we are following the current raid rules (which I find idiotic to begin with) I would fix that statement by saying you can't skirt punishments assigned to a group of people for bad behavior and you can't skip lockouts. However if you are reforming, or rebranding or splitting off from a guild, you should be allowed to switch classes to R as long as you don't kill a class C mob.

Back to the cherry picking Yendor. Why only quote part of the whole? I am disappoint.

[Champion_Standing]

No basically your questions contained unrelated variables that you through into a question that had no meaning and only supported your statement. Unfortunately, your question didn't represent the debate or reality.



Ummmm you kind of asked for my OPINION about a situation. If you read my position early in the thread you would realize my grievance is mainly with the idiotic raid rules.



Who said anything about a lockout? I clearly said that a new guild should be able to be class R unless they kill a Class C mob which dictated by the rules would set them to Class C. Forsaken hadn't killed a Class C mob. Still don't see where I said anything about a lockout.



It seems you are doing the cherrypicking. Punitive measures are assigned to all individuals in a guild class restrictions should be assigned to guilds. Are you are saying that if a TMO member apped to Taken and can now not raid class R mobs for 30 days.
Is the majority of Forsaken the majority of TMO? If TMO instead splintered into 3-4 guilds...are all those guilds Class C? Where do you draw the line?
If Forsaken instead merged with Taken... would they be Class R or Class C? If Forsaken merged into A-Team instead of taking a new guild name would they be Class R or Class C?
You are trying to fight phantom problems. Are you pro-border fence?



Why would I care if class R is calling out other class R guilds about lockout restrictions other than entertainment value. Also, this isn't a lockout discussion.

Is it not though? Because the rules don't seem intelligent or fair.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lsbfy6UEsO1r0n79p.gif

[Samoht]

Back to the cherry picking Yendor.

This will suffice.

[quido]

didn't read any of the stupid Clooney shit, but this was A+, lol

http://www.imgur.com/2nTUJ4O.png

[Alarti0001]

didn't read any of the stupid Clooney shit, but this was A+, lol

http://www.imgur.com/2nTUJ4O.png

I was thinking about doing this. You should have put in his quote about how real life threats aren't acceptable... while posting those above quotes.

[Corpsed]

That would of changed everything

[arsenalpow]

anyone else think "Foreskin" every time they see the Forsaken tag?

Every time.

Nah, looks like ForSirken to me.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Class doesn't have lockouts per se other than individual mob suspensions. Since you used lockouts in your statement about a class C guild I figured you were intending something along that line... since it would be inherently stupid to worry about lockouts on a class that doesn't.... have them.

If you want you can just throw suspension in there and remove lockouts altogether. As I said your question had a lot of inapplicable variables.

Please describe these inapplicable variables as you see them. You've mentioned this three times but failed to point them out and explain why they are inapplicable.

Again, the question was this:

Can a group of players go from Class C to Class R en masse without waiting for the 30-day cooldown period by merely changing their guild and therefore escaping (purposely or not) any restrictions, lockouts, sanctions, suspensions, or other conditions applied to their original guild? Yes or no.

Let's break this down:

- Can a group of players go from Class C to Class R en masse

1) A large majority of TMO (Class C) formed up Forsaken and then killed Class R mobs. Fact, unless you're trying to tell us Forsaken is not TMO re-forming under a new guildtag.

2) Killing a Class R mob, unless your intention was to receive a suspension, implies that said group of players are in Class R.

- without waiting for the 30-day cooldown period

There is a 30-day cooldown period mandated by server staff going from Class C to Class R. Fact. The group of players being discussed did not wait 30 days before killing a Class R mob. Fact.

- and therefore escaping (purposely or not) any restrictions, lockouts, sanctions, suspensions, or other conditions applied to their original guild?

You've already conceded punitive measures should follow the players. There is no clean slate by your own acceptance that punitive measures should follow the players, correct?

But why stop there and just cherry pick punitive measures? Why not all restrictions/conditions/lockouts/rules of the server?

Furthermore, how am I cherry picking when I include ALL of that stuff?

What part of this question is not based reality? What variables do not apply?

That Forsaken is largely made up of ex-TMO?

That there is a 30-day cooldown period that was not observed?

That restrictions of their original guild should no longer apply, allowing players to circumvent the raid rules by vacating their guild?

Please help me understand by breaking it down for me. No diverting. No dodging. No changing the parameters of the question and then answering that. No whipping out debate terms to avoid addressing any of these points.

[quido]

fight me irl

[central scrutinizer]

pls do not let anger be supplanted by compulsion


this could be so beautiful

[Clark]

I can accept and even respect loyalty to your guild and friends Clark but man you really need help. When you start randomly threatening harm to people outside of game that's when it becomes serious. With all the nutcases now days that think its acceptable to act out and harm others over perceived slights if your not careful that could land you in legal trouble or worse. Please man if you do nothing else seek support and help whether it is from family, friends or professionals. I know forums like RNF and games like EQ, etc. promote anonymity but some of your raging seems to be dangerous for you and others. It goes beyond simple frustration or trolling. Get out enjoy the sunshine, read a book, do anything you want to but whatever you decide to do take a break from the game and forums. The new perspective afterwards might help.

I already tan outside son. I read books. I have a baller car, and full-time job. The problem is you didn't witness any of the continual harassment I experienced; therefore you cannot hold a complete understanding of the situation. I definitely don't need any help I'm a beast.

[Alarti0001]

Please describe these inapplicable variables as you see them. You've mentioned this three times but failed to point them out and explain why they are inapplicable.

Again, the question was this:

Can a group of players go from Class C to Class R en masse without waiting for the 30-day cooldown period by merely changing their guild and therefore escaping (purposely or not) any restrictions, lockouts, sanctions, suspensions, or other conditions applied to their original guild? Yes or no.

Let's break this down:

- Can a group of players go from Class C to Class R en masse

1) A large majority of TMO (Class C) formed up Forsaken and then killed Class R mobs. Fact, unless you're trying to tell us Forsaken is not TMO re-forming under a new guildtag.

2) Killing a Class R mob, unless your intention was to receive a suspension, implies that said group of players are in Class R.

- without waiting for the 30-day cooldown period

There is a 30-day cooldown period mandated by server staff going from Class C to Class R. Fact. The group of players being discussed did not wait 30 days before killing a Class R mob. Fact.

- and therefore escaping (purposely or not) any restrictions, lockouts, sanctions, suspensions, or other conditions applied to their original guild?

You've already conceded punitive measures should follow the players. There is no clean slate by your own acceptance that punitive measures should follow the players, correct?

But why stop there and just cherry pick punitive measures? Why not all restrictions/conditions/lockouts/rules of the server?

Furthermore, how am I cherry picking when I include ALL of that stuff?

What part of this question is not based reality? What variables do not apply?

That Forsaken is largely made up of ex-TMO?

That there is a 30-day cooldown period that was not observed?

That restrictions of their original guild should no longer apply, allowing players to circumvent the raid rules by vacating their guild?

Please help me understand by breaking it down for me. No diverting. No dodging. No changing the parameters of the question and then answering that. No whipping out debate terms to avoid addressing any of these points.

1) Isn't a fact under half of TMO membership joined Forsaken.

TMO is a Class C guild. TMO exists.
Forsaken is a new guild.

What punitive measures was Forsaken or TMO under at that time? None--Fact
Didn't cherry pick punitive measures. Punitive measures are a punishment. TMO was not being punished for anything... therefore nothing punitive to transfer.

Forsaken reformed as a new guild with no kill history. TMO still exists with over half of its original membership.

Why didn't you answer the pertinent questions I asked you about guild splitting examples?(Cherry picking)

Please stop diverting and dodging these questions.

Punitive measures are assigned to all individuals in a guild class restrictions should be assigned to guilds. Are you are saying that if a TMO member apped to Taken and can now not raid class R mobs for 30 days.
Is the majority of Forsaken the majority of TMO? If TMO instead splintered into 3-4 guilds...are all those guilds Class C? Where do you draw the line?
If Forsaken instead merged with Taken... would they be Class R or Class C? If Forsaken merged into A-Team instead of taking a new guild name would they be Class R or Class C?

[Clark]

Pm from Clark

Also been courting this cute little petite blonde at work, but not going hard in the paint on that until a few more weeks. Laying the ground work she has been flirting a lot though. We were talking about the Cavs week ago and she said "I thought about you last night." So she is definitely interested.

workinon RL yowl

That is correct senator. So who is sending you my private pm's? Only people I sent that message to was Uncharted and Iruinedyourday.

Definitely couldn't be Uncharted.

You doing me dirty Iruinedyourday?

[Clark]

Sharing personal pms is fuckin low down and dirty.

[Cecily]

Let's break this down:

- Can a group of players go from Class C to Class R en masse

1) A large majority of TMO (Class C) formed up Forsaken and then killed Class R mobs. Fact, unless you're trying to tell us Forsaken is not TMO re-forming under a new guildtag.

Ok. Forsaken is not TMO re-forming under a new guildtag. TMO fractured. There's quite a few of us, myself included, who don't support the new guild or have much (any faith) in its leadership. Forsaken is a new guild. Same people. Not the same number of people or resources TMO had. The suspension is unfortunate seeing as the new guild needs as much momentum as possible, but it's also hilarious and speaks volumes of the coup's leadership.

[Clark]

I was thinking about doing this. You should have put in his quote about how real life threats aren't acceptable... while posting those above quotes.

Private guild forums are completely separate from this forum. You and Quickfingers are the only people dirty enough to post private shit publicly.

Tool.

[Samoht]

1) Isn't a fact under half of TMO membership joined Forsaken.

TMO is a Class C guild. TMO exists.
Forsaken is a new guild.

What punitive measures was Forsaken or TMO under at that time? None--Fact
Didn't cherry pick punitive measures. Punitive measures are a punishment. TMO was not being punished for anything... therefore nothing punitive to transfer.

Forsaken reformed as a new guild with no kill history. TMO still exists with over half of its original membership.

Why didn't you answer the pertinent questions I asked you about guild splitting examples?(Cherry picking)

Please stop diverting and dodging these questions.

Punitive measures are assigned to all individuals in a guild class restrictions should be assigned to guilds. Are you are saying that if a TMO member apped to Taken and can now not raid class R mobs for 30 days.
Is the majority of Forsaken the majority of TMO? If TMO instead splintered into 3-4 guilds...are all those guilds Class C? Where do you draw the line?
If Forsaken instead merged with Taken... would they be Class R or Class C? If Forsaken merged into A-Team instead of taking a new guild name would they be Class R or Class C?

per·ti·nent ˈpərtnənt/ adjective adjective: pertinent relevant or applicable to a particular matter; apposite. "she asked me a lot of very pertinent questions"

No, none of these scenarios seem pertinent.

hare·brained ˈherbrānd/ adjective adjective: hare-brained; adjective: harebrained rash; ill-judged. "a harebrained scheme" synonyms: ill-judged, rash, foolish, foolhardy, reckless, madcap, wild, silly, stupid, ridiculous, absurd, idiotic, asinine, imprudent, impracticable, unworkable, unrealistic, unconsidered, half-baked, ill-thought-out, ill-advised, ill-conceived; More

That seems more appropriate.

[Faron]

alarti thinks that if you sound what he considers to be formal and namedrop an uncommonly used word then you "win".

[Lojik]

That is correct senator. So who is sending you my private pm's? Only people I sent that message to was Uncharted and Iruinedyourday.

Definitely couldn't be Uncharted.

You doing me dirty Iruinedyourday?

Is she into nerd bashing?

[Alarti0001]

Private guild forums are completely separate from this forum. You and Quickfingers are the only people dirty enough to post private shit publicly.

Tool.

This seems to be the argument a child pornographer would make.

[Alarti0001]

per·ti·nent ˈpərtnənt/ adjective adjective: pertinent relevant or applicable to a particular matter; apposite. "she asked me a lot of very pertinent questions"

No, none of these scenarios seem pertinent.

hare·brained ˈherbrānd/ adjective adjective: hare-brained; adjective: harebrained rash; ill-judged. "a harebrained scheme" synonyms: ill-judged, rash, foolish, foolhardy, reckless, madcap, wild, silly, stupid, ridiculous, absurd, idiotic, asinine, imprudent, impracticable, unworkable, unrealistic, unconsidered, half-baked, ill-thought-out, ill-advised, ill-conceived; More

That seems more appropriate.

Glad to see you have given up trying to support your statement. Good little troll.

[azxten]

I'll join Forsaken to pad former TMO membership numbers. Are there varying rates on my alts former guilds?

[Mead]

TMO still doesn't have their own forums?

[Llodd]

Ok. Forsaken is not TMO re-forming under a new guildtag. TMO fractured. There's quite a few of us, myself included, who don't support the new guild or have much (any faith) in its leadership. Forsaken is a new guild. Same people. Not the same number of people or resources TMO had. The suspension is unfortunate seeing as the new guild needs as much momentum as possible, but it's also hilarious and speaks volumes of the coup's leadership.

The point is (which fatlarti deliberately omits in every post he makes ) is that Foreskin is mostly made up of ex TMO (and for absence of doubt this means people who were up until recently tagged under that name). Yes TMO still exists, yes Foreskin didnt get the guild bank and some other shit that's irrelevant.

The only way fatlarti is ever going to answer the underlying question of this whole stupid thread and which Yendor put so simply (too simple for fatlartis) is if he asks the question himself.

You guys need to get him to frame the question for himself . He is incapable of answering simple questions - so let him frame it with all the gobbledey**** he likes to, pointlesssly, pad out his evasive replies with.

People seem under the misconception that because tmo fractured that this somehow means that a sizeable proportion can reform and merely continue as though they are an entirely new entity.

Worth remembering that the rules aren't simply about stopping guilds abusing the system.

[Jimjam]

I think it is is a good way to try force a reinvention of the raid rules by finding holes that allow large groups of players to ignore the lock outs of the class system.

The ruling that was made stops people from being able to reclassify en masse without a cool down. The side effect of that would be whether the ruling only applies to large groups of players, or whether individual players carry a Class C cool-down too.

If players didn't have their own personal cool down I guess it could lead to a system where players could hop between a class C and class R guild as they pleased, and could encourage class c guilds to create 'unaffiliated' subsidiary guilds used for guild hopping into class R raiding.

Just the thoughts of an irrelevant outsider.

[Bazia]

how do u get harassed on the internet

[Samoht]

Glad to see you have given up trying to support your statement. Good little troll.

^^^ This idiot is tired of getting rekt by Yendor so he deflects to claim pseudo-victory in an issue he created and set the victory conditions himself. Coincidentally, nobody else gives a fuck that he never bothered to read the rest of the thread because he's the one that looks like a fool for thinking they should read it for him.

You, sir, are a master debater.

[Mistle]

Guilds can put themselves in class C without any GM involvement. They have to petition to get into class R. The logical thing to do is put ALL guilds not on the raid roster into class C by default so they have to petition to get into R. It would just be a formality with up and comer guilds like Anonymous and would give time to examine class dodging attempts like rebranded TMO/Forsaken.

Problem solved.

[Seltius]

I feel bad for Forsaken but at the same time I feel even worse for the Class R guilds that are only getting a few raid targets that will now have to complete with a guild that until recently was taking down Class C mobs and had stayed in the top tier fight for so long. While I don't feel it has really been TMO since Zeelot disbanded it they were still a Class C raiding guild and capable of that. A lot of the members are in the new guild and haven't lost that skill so it really isn't a different guild from what formed in 2014 beyond material comparison. The same people that were leading the guild whether by deed or maybe title are running the guild now.


Clark since when does having nice things make being psychotic acceptable? Unless your Lindsay Lohan, Mel Gibson, Charlie Sheen or one of the other celebrities that has had a meltdown and gotten away with it. Dude I don't care about what you have its your mental state I am speaking to. The fact that you came back with the material things you have when I remarked concern about your mental state speaks volumes. There are sociopathic tendencies and a disconnect with reality in some of your posts. You respond poorly to any type of negative feedback or criticism. Instead of accepting criticism you go nuts and point out how everyone else is wrong.

Are you a Warlock Clark drinking tigers blood? Because you are definitely having a meltdown.

Good luck with your PR campaign if the negative views of TMO over the years have proved anything people will ignore public opinion if it will get them their pixels. Look at FE they merged with TMO first chance they got after claiming how much they hated them. Tasslehof actually said at one point he would die before ever wearing a TMO tag. That he absolutely hated them. I still have the logs somewhere I think. It was while we were chatting in KC waiting on VS. But yet when it was available even he took the TMO tag.

[dafier]

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

If your going to steal a line from a movie and then give credit to the movie at least quote it right!


Jk needed to break up the cycle of 2 Cloonies and their loony breakdown.

I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU.... :P

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/whhIvOJVKZ4/hqdefault.jpg

[Alarti0001]

^^^ This idiot is tired of getting rekt by Yendor so he deflects to claim pseudo-victory in an issue he created and set the victory conditions himself. Coincidentally, nobody else gives a fuck that he never bothered to read the rest of the thread because he's the one that looks like a fool for thinking they should read it for him.

You, sir, are a master debater.

^^^ This idiot is tired of getting rekt by Alarti so he deflects to claim pseudo-victory in an issue he created and then ran away from. Coincidentally, nobody else gives a fuck that he/she never bothered to read the rest of the thread because he's the one that looks like a fool for thinking they should read it for him.

[Alarti0001]

Guilds can put themselves in class C without any GM involvement. They have to petition to get into class R. The logical thing to do is put ALL guilds not on the raid roster into class C by default so they have to petition to get into R. It would just be a formality with up and comer guilds like Anonymous and would give time to examine class dodging attempts like rebranded TMO/Forsaken.

Problem solved.

Where does it state you have to petition to enter class R? Serious question.

[Samoht]

^^^ This idiot is tired of getting rekt by Alarti so he deflects to claim pseudo-victory in an issue he created and then ran away from. Coincidentally, nobody else gives a fuck that he/she never bothered to read the rest of the thread because he's the one that looks like a fool for thinking they should read it for him.

^^^ This idiot thinks that anybody besides him got rekt in this thread.

Copy/pasta strikes again.

[cs616]

Anyone else remember how class R was created specifically as an inclusive class to allow non-raiders the opportunity to kill mobs without having to deal with the cut throat competition of the raiding guilds? Funny how it has gotten more and more exclusionary. Gotta protect those welfare pixels.

[Alarti0001]

^^^ This idiot thinks that anybody besides him got rekt in this thread.

Copy/pasta strikes again.

^^^ This idiot thinks name calling is how you win an argument.

Child strikes again.


My dad could beat up your dad.

[Alarti0001]

Anyone else remember how class R was created specifically as an inclusive class to allow non-raiders the opportunity to kill mobs without having to deal with the cut throat competition of the raiding guilds? Funny how it has gotten more and more exclusionary. Gotta protect those welfare pixels.

And that is what I've been saying.

[Samoht]

^^^ This idiot thinks name calling is how you win an argument.

Child strikes again.


My dad could beat up your dad.

Oh, man, you are a nut job. You come into this thread, intentionally misquoting somebody so that you could generate an argument that cherry-picks that misquote to mean what you need it to mean, and get called out on it. Then you deflect, and get called out on it again. Then you deflect AGAIN and spiral completely out of control and start copying and pasting debate terms and other things with absolutely no relevance to the thread.

But now you're doing the very things you copy/pastaed? I don't think there's enough signature space in the world to fit the amount of hypocrisy you've shown in this thread.

[Ravager]

Where does it state you have to petition to enter class R? Serious question.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189856

Q17

[cs616]

And that is what I've been saying.

Can we just pretend that we disagree? Us agreeing on something is confusing and makes me feel unclean.

[Samoht]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189856

Q17

What Q17 does not say is that they can reform as a new guild and pretend like they're class R all of a sudden.

[Man0warr]

Anyone else remember how class R was created specifically as an inclusive class to allow non-raiders the opportunity to kill mobs without having to deal with the cut throat competition of the raiding guilds? Funny how it has gotten more and more exclusionary. Gotta protect those welfare pixels.

Every guild is Class R by default, you only have to petition to be Class R if you are currently Class C.

Disbanding your guild and forming a new one made up of 97% of the old guild does not get you out of Class C, so says Rogean.

[Samoht]

Disbanding your guild and forming a new one made up of 97% of the old guild does not get you out of Class C, so says Rogean.

Inb4 someone tries to argue semantics by saying that they didn't actually disband, that everybody left and that there are some non-raiders or people that switched to red still with the former TMO tag.

[falkun]

If 93.2% of your raid force is comprised of ex-members of a class C guild and you attempt Class R targets without those members waiting 30 days and petitioning to be allowed to kill R targets, you're gonna have a bad time. - Rogean

[Colgate]

if you try to participate in the endgame on blue, you're gonna have a bad time

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
When was Rampage suspended... for how long... what raid mobs spawned during their suspension.. what happened the day before their suspension...what are the repop timers on raid mobs?

GG

Just like almost every TMO suspension ever.

--DEFLECTION

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
Sure demonstrate your point, or do you find this too difficult considering the lack of evidence to support you?

I'm not sorting through the TMO suspensions again. There are way too many of them.

--DEFLECTION

Originally Posted by falkun View Post
You, unbrella, and brobafett(reddit) all have this similar argument. Yet here is Unbrella of TMO arguing with Hokushin of Rampage[/URL]. In this thread, Sirken lays down the law:

Therefore, ANY TMO that join Forsaken are forbidden from killing a Class R target until their 30-days of not killing a Class C mob is up. This rule was not followed, and 69 TMO members did not wait 30 days. That was your leadership's fault, they KNOWINGLY disregarded a raid rule.

^^ Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
In this post Falkun clearly demonstrates he can't wrap his mind around simple concepts.

Your proof isn't a proof. TMO was not suspended. This isn't a discussion about suspensions.

Try again.

^^ In this post Alarti clearly demonstrates he ha no idea what the fuck he's talking about.

Nobody said anything about TMO being suspended. The post was about how your class standing would carry on with your characters when all that changed was your guild name.

Still a moran.

Falkun clearly tries to connect a IB suspension guild reform to a non suspended TMO splitting into a new guild.
Somehow Samoht doesn't see this. Not deflection I guess... just really really DUMB

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
How idiotic can you be? Falkun clearly brought up a IB suspension not carrying as evidence about class switching. You seem incapable of following a line of thought. Falkun was arguing about suspensions. See the links in his post.

TMO and IB aren't even the same guild us moran. I have no idea what you're even talking about any more, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.

Proves he can't follow a conversation then lashes out in anger. DUMB

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
Yep you are lost. It's okay if you want to keep up you should try to figure out the point Falkun was trying to make first. This seems to be a recurring problem with you, can't follow the course of the discussion.

It's hard to follow the nonsense you've been spewing. He didn't mention anything about a TMO suspension, but somehow that's what you zeroed in on in your response.

Now, if you want to talk about how people cannot follow the course of the discussion, let's talk about how members of TMO/Foreskin have been trying to compare the IB/Rampage suspension to the TMO/Foreskin suspension before he did, and yet you completely ignored their comparisons.

It's clear that you're only responding to people unaffiliated with TMO/Foreskin, and that in your selective responses, you're completely ignoring how TMO/Foreskin members have been trying to leverage the same evidence in their justifications for their douchebaggery.

ITT: douchebags defend douchebags.

Still can't follow the course of the conversation.. E-pride kicks in..more lashing out and eventual new topic is brought up to deflect from the topic at hand.

---DEFLECTION + DUMB

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
What forsaken people are posting here? Should I argue with people who aren't posting here?

What Forsaken people are posting arguments here?

You are clearly insane. This thread is up to 23 pages and full of TMO/Foreskin people looking to justify their actions using plausible deniability. You're going to ignore that fact because it's inconvenient to you, but it doesn't change the truth. If you're going to be too lazy to look back through the rest of the thread, that's your prerogative, but to pretend it never happened because you can't be bothered? Do you think everybody else in the world besides you is stupid? Take a look in the mirror. They say ignorance is bliss, tell me, is that true? Can you really choose to be as ignorant as you are just to be able to argue that things never happened?

No, it's not my job to reread the thread for you. If you want to be a big boy and have any substantial presence in this conversation, you will reread it yourself.


--Makes claims... won't support them DEFLECTION


Originally posted by Alarti0001 View Post
If you are trying to prove something you must provide evidence. What forsaken people are posting arguments in here. It's funny how the amount of insults you spew correlate directly with how badly you are failing at your argument.

When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. An argument from ignorance occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proved false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proved true.[1][2] This has the effect of shifting the burden of proof to the person criticizing the proposition, but is not valid reasoning.[3]

You're not feigning ignorance on this just because that's what's convenient to you. I'm not rereading this thread for some lazy asshole on the Internet that's derailing threads by chasing tangents about irrelevant off-topic information. Start addressing the substance. And I believe the word you're looking for is onus. Stop saying "burden of proof" you fucking pleb.

--DEFLECTION----all hope lost for this idiot.


Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
It's logical rules. They exist in any medium if you want to debate an issue with any kind of rational ability. I already spoke to the issue at hand. Maybe you should read it and come up with a coherent reaponse.


And where's the logic in reading a thread starting on page 16? Do you really think that just because you didn't read the other 15 pages you can deny they exist? I think that would be a requirement before you could logically try to argue with someone about it, but that didn't stop you, did it?

---Deflection + thinking that if you claim something is true it must be true. DUMB


You have zero validity because you're arguing a tangent. Again. It's what you do. You find what you perceive to be a weakness and zero in on it until a thread is completely derailed. Why don't you tell me about how many pages there are in the thread on your screen again? Because that's what matters here, right?

You have no substance to your discussion, so you have to focus on the little battles. Since you're the one who brought up the debate rules, I'm going to have to say you'd suck at debating.

They don't allow tangents.

Your specialty appears to be filibuster.

--Doesn't even realize we are arguing a tangent he brought up. DUMB

Officially bored of you. Come back when you can .... Prove It

[cs616]

Every guild is Class R by default, you only have to petition to be Class R if you are currently Class C.

Disbanding your guild and forming a new one made up of 97% of the old guild does not get you out of Class C, so says Rogean.

Making rules up as you go to exclude a newly formed guild based on the history of individual members just seems to go against the whole reason class R was created. Class R was supposed to be the non-competitive raiding class, but instead of competing for mobs, the competition is to get included in the class it seems. Even if it is 97% the same people (which im guessing is a grossly exaggerated number), it is a new guild with different leadership, and they should be afforded the same opportunity as any other new guild.

Ive got no lost love for TMO folks, and agreeing with alarti makes me feel dirty, but this definitely seems like class R people throwing a bitch fit and rule lawyering their way into making life difficult for some former class C people.

[Tiggles]

So who was is winning the fight? Alarti or Samoht?

Post below.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
When was Rampage suspended... for how long... what raid mobs spawned during their suspension.. what happened the day before their suspension...what are the repop timers on raid mobs?

GG



--DEFLECTION

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
Sure demonstrate your point, or do you find this too difficult considering the lack of evidence to support you?



--DEFLECTION

Originally Posted by falkun View Post
You, unbrella, and brobafett(reddit) all have this similar argument. Yet here is Unbrella of TMO arguing with Hokushin of Rampage[/URL]. In this thread, Sirken lays down the law:

Therefore, ANY TMO that join Forsaken are forbidden from killing a Class R target until their 30-days of not killing a Class C mob is up. This rule was not followed, and 69 TMO members did not wait 30 days. That was your leadership's fault, they KNOWINGLY disregarded a raid rule.

^^ Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
In this post Falkun clearly demonstrates he can't wrap his mind around simple concepts.

Your proof isn't a proof. TMO was not suspended. This isn't a discussion about suspensions.

Try again.



Falkun clearly tries to connect a IB suspension guild reform to a non suspended TMO splitting into a new guild.
Somehow Samoht doesn't see this. Not deflection I guess... just really really DUMB

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
How idiotic can you be? Falkun clearly brought up a IB suspension not carrying as evidence about class switching. You seem incapable of following a line of thought. Falkun was arguing about suspensions. See the links in his post.



Proves he can't follow a conversation then lashes out in anger. DUMB

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
Yep you are lost. It's okay if you want to keep up you should try to figure out the point Falkun was trying to make first. This seems to be a recurring problem with you, can't follow the course of the discussion.



Still can't follow the course of the conversation.. E-pride kicks in..more lashing out and eventual new topic is brought up to deflect from the topic at hand.

---DEFLECTION + DUMB

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
What forsaken people are posting here? Should I argue with people who aren't posting here?

What Forsaken people are posting arguments here?




--Makes claims... won't support them DEFLECTION


Originally posted by Alarti0001 View Post
If you are trying to prove something you must provide evidence. What forsaken people are posting arguments in here. It's funny how the amount of insults you spew correlate directly with how badly you are failing at your argument.

When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. An argument from ignorance occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proved false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proved true.[1][2] This has the effect of shifting the burden of proof to the person criticizing the proposition, but is not valid reasoning.[3]



--DEFLECTION----all hope lost for this idiot.


Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
It's logical rules. They exist in any medium if you want to debate an issue with any kind of rational ability. I already spoke to the issue at hand. Maybe you should read it and come up with a coherent reaponse.




---Deflection + thinking that if you claim something is true it must be true. DUMB




--Doesn't even realize we are arguing a tangent he brought up. DUMB

Officially bored of you. Come back when you can .... Prove It

^^^ Holy crap at this wall of text. Your level of immersion is daunting. I now feel bad for you personally. Find a new obsession.

[Alarti0001]

Can we just pretend that we disagree? Us agreeing on something is confusing and makes me feel unclean.

Don't let emotional bias cloud your judgement. We probably agree on a lot more than you'd think.

[Alarti0001]

^^^ Holy crap at this wall of text. Your level of immersion is daunting. I now feel bad for you personally. Find a new obsession.

---Deflection

You do realize most of that text..... is copy/pasted from your posts.

Fuck that's funny and your new claim is pretty ironic.

[Man0warr]

Making rules up as you go to exclude a newly formed guild based on the history of individual members just seems to go against the whole reason class R was created. Class R was supposed to be the non-competitive raiding class, but instead of competing for mobs, the competition is to get included in the class it seems. Even if it is 97% the same people (which im guessing is a grossly exaggerated number), it is a new guild with different leadership, and they should be afforded the same opportunity as any other new guild.

It's not an exaggerated number, Rogean posted the exact percentage in his suspension thread. Looks like 69/74 Members were TMO so that's 94%?

Also, Class R wasn't made to be non-competitive. It's the RESTRICTED Class, which all that means is a guild can't lockdown all spawns like TMO was doing to force the Class system by Rogean. Guilds in Class R are restricted to 1 kill for every 3 spawns.

[Samoht]

Even if it is 97% the same people (which im guessing is a grossly exaggerated number).

Grossly exaggerated? Lol. It's a little more than 3% over what Rogean stated. I do not believe that qualifies as "grossly exaggerated."

[Samoht]

---Deflection

You do realize most of that text..... is copy/pasted from your posts.

Fuck that's funny and your new claim is pretty ironic.

Prove it.

[Alarti0001]

Prove it.

Ok Kiddo. I'm gonna leave you alone now. Clearly you are having a mental break.

[cs616]

If I have 100 apples in a basket, and I take 50 and put them in a new basket, and then add another two that were not from the original basket, that is not 96% of the same people. It is 50% of the same people. Unless TMO had 100 members and 97 left to join forsaken (or some variation of equal proportion), you guys dont know how comparative percentages work.

[Samoht]

Ok Kiddo. I'm gonna leave you alone now. Clearly you are having a mental break.

If people using your "debate" tactics against you are automatically having a mental break, what does that say about your own mental state?

[Alarti0001]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189856

Q17

Ya don't see that in there.

[Alarti0001]

If I have 100 apples in a basket, and I take 50 and put them in a new basket, and then add another two that were not from the original basket, that is not 96% of the same people. It is 50% of the same people. Unless TMO had 100 members and 97 left to join forsaken (or some variation of equal proportion), you guys dont know how comparative percentages work.

Yay for Math. You must not live in the USA most people here can't understand these basic functions.

[Seltius]

I HATE YOU I HATE YOU I HATE YOU.... :P

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/whhIvOJVKZ4/hqdefault.jpg

/hug its ok

[Samoht]

If I have 100 apples in a basket, and I take 50 and put them in a new basket, and then add another two that were not from the original basket, that is not 96% of the same people. It is 50% of the same people. Unless TMO had 100 members and 97 left to join forsaken (or some variation of equal proportion), you guys dont know how comparative percentages work.

But what if you take 93 apples from that first basket and put them into the second? What would the percentage be then? Rogean attached a spreadsheet with the raw numbers here (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1929063&postcount=1).

74 total raiders. Only a single raider from the list came from a guild other than TMO. There were also 4 nulls, some of which were also former TMO members.

[arsenalpow]

if you try to play Everquest, you're gonna have a bad time

[Alarti0001]

Marksman when he thought he was getting into Forsaken

If anyone gave you the tag they'd be almost as dumb as Alarti thinking he is wise.

Also nobody is gonna stick around in that shit it's only legimate officer Detoxx is gone. Anyone who isn't a mega troll or a red99 hopper will be joining Forsaken for the most part. TMO is way beyond repair. Not sure why I'm even responding to you fucking non factor 1.5 year ghost noob.


Marksman when he realized he wouldn't be getting into Forsaken.

Hell no don't want to join people who don't stand up for their members, treat people like dirt, support trolling like you guys do, and putting a lot of people with absolutely poor social skills into leadership (Gunnter, Dottedup, Yeaboy, , and Portsche the guildbank thief).

Even the good officers don't stand up for their members.

They also only have 1 raid leader Detoxx. Recipe for disaster.

[cs616]

But what if you take 93 apples from that first basket and put them into the second? What would the percentage be then? Rogean attached a spreadsheet with the raw numbers here (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1929063&postcount=1).

74 total raiders. Only a single raider from the list came from a guild other than TMO. There were also 4 nulls, some of which were also former TMO members.

You could say that forsaken is 93% comprised of former TMO members, but that is not the same as saying it is 93% of the same people. 93% of the same people implies that 93% of people who were tagged TMO left to join forsaken, which didnt happen as far as I understand. They are two drastically different statements. 93% of the same people would lend credibility to the claim that they reformed to skirt the rules, 93% comprised of is more indicative of an internal fracture leading to two separate entities. It would be like claiming FE and BDA were the same guild after they split because FE was comprised of a high percentage of former BDA players.

[arsenalpow]

You could say that forsaken is 93% comprised of former TMO members, but that is not the same as saying it is 93% of the same people. 93% of the same people implies that 93% of people who were tagged TMO left to join forsaken, which didnt happen as far as I understand. They are two drastically different statements. 93% of the same people would lend credibility to the claim that they reformed to skirt the rules, 93% comprised of is more indicative of an internal fracture leading to two separate entities. It would be like claiming FE and BDA were the same guild after they split because FE was comprised of a high percentage of former BDA players.

Except with BDA and FE there was a class tier system that a guild was attempting to circumvent.

[Samoht]

You could say that forsaken is 93% comprised of former TMO members, but that is not the same as saying it is 93% of the same people. 93% of the same people implies that 93% of people who were tagged TMO left to join forsaken, which didnt happen as far as I understand. They are two drastically different statements. 93% of the same people would lend credibility to the claim that they reformed to skirt the rules, 93% comprised of is more indicative of an internal fracture leading to two separate entities. It would be like claiming FE and BDA were the same guild after they split because FE was comprised of a high percentage of former BDA players.

Ok, Alarti jr.

[Alarti0001]

You could say that forsaken is 93% comprised of former TMO members, but that is not the same as saying it is 93% of the same people. 93% of the same people implies that 93% of people who were tagged TMO left to join forsaken, which didnt happen as far as I understand. They are two drastically different statements. 93% of the same people would lend credibility to the claim that they reformed to skirt the rules, 93% comprised of is more indicative of an internal fracture leading to two separate entities. It would be like claiming FE and BDA were the same guild after they split because FE was comprised of a high percentage of former BDA players.

Less than 50% of TMO membership left to Forsaken. I made this argument earlier... people just ignored it or deflected it.

[arsenalpow]

You could say that forsaken is 93% comprised of former TMO members, but that is not the same as saying it is 93% of the same people. 93% of the same people implies that 93% of people who were tagged TMO left to join forsaken, which didnt happen as far as I understand. They are two drastically different statements. 93% of the same people would lend credibility to the claim that they reformed to skirt the rules, 93% comprised of is more indicative of an internal fracture leading to two separate entities. It would be like claiming FE and BDA were the same guild after they split because FE was comprised of a high percentage of former BDA players.

Also there's no longer a TMO on the blue server, the original guild is dead and Forsaken has supplanted it. TMO only cut some folks loose and rearranged some leadership, otherwise it's still the same people. Pretty easy call for Lord Rogean.

[Alarti0001]

Also there's no longer a TMO on the blue server, the original guild is dead and Forsaken has supplanted it. TMO only cut some folks loose and rearranged some leadership, otherwise it's still the same people. Pretty easy call for Lord Rogean.

Incorrect TMO still has well over 100 members and are talking about raiding this week.

[Samoht]

Inb4 someone tries to argue semantics by saying that they didn't actually disband, that everybody left and that there are some non-raiders or people that switched to red still with the former TMO tag.

Less than 50% of TMO membership left to Forsaken. I made this argument earlier... people just ignored it or deflected it.

Called it. Someone couldn't help but argue the semantics instead of discussing the actual substance. Guess who it was.

[Samoht]

Incorrect TMO still has well over 100 members and are talking about raiding this week.

Make sure that no Foreskin members are allowed at your kills.

On second thought, don't. Invite them all back. Go ahead. I'm sure it's ok. It doesn't say in the rules you can't have them.

[cs616]

Except with BDA and FE there was a class tier system that a guild was attempting to circumvent.

Prove it.

First agreeing with Alarti, and now quoting him? Look what youve done chest!

But seriously, enforcing rules based on a perceived intention of another party is a shitty basis for a rule system. Maybe some of them got sick of class C and just want to raid casually in R. Maybe they want to see how their new guild will fair in a small pond before jumping back in the ocean. They are for all intents and purposes a new guild, albeit fractured from another like FE was, but that shouldnt be a reason for the sins of the father to be visited on the son.

[Samoht]

Prove it.

First agreeing with Alarti, and now quoting him? Look what youve done chest!

But seriously, enforcing rules based on a perceived intention of another party is a shitty basis for a rule system. Maybe some of them got sick of class C and just want to raid casually in R. Maybe they want to see how their new guild will fair in a small pond before jumping back in the ocean. They are for all intents and purposes a new guild, albeit fractured from another like FE was, but that shouldnt be a reason for the sins of the father to be visited on the son.

You are going full Alarti now. First, you focused on how someone phrased the raid makeup (93% former TMO members vs. COMPRISED OF 93% former TMO members), then you say prove it, and now you're are creating your own victory conditions for the arguments you get into by cherry-picking select words and phrasing. Please try to regain control before you too are spiraling out of control and going full retard against people using your tactics against you.

[Mistle]

Maybe some of them got sick of class C and just want to raid casually in R.

Shoulda petitioned first then, according to Q17, shouldn't they? The fact that they were "sick of class C" should have been an indication even from your own words that they needed to follow class C to R rules, doesn't it?

They didn't of course. They knew what they were doing was wrong, they either just didn't care or were hoping Sirken's incompetence would bail them out, which he almost did.

[arsenalpow]

Did you not see any of the screenshots where they were blatantly conspiring to just pick off some class r mobs just because before they went after some class C targets? Or how the screenshot had their justification of "well IB turned into rampage so we can do whatever the hell we want too"

[Alarti0001]

Shoulda petitioned first then, according to Q17, shouldn't they? The fact that they were "sick of class C" should have been an indication even from your own words that they needed to follow class C to R rules, doesn't it?

They didn't of course. They knew what they were doing was wrong, they either just didn't care or were hoping Sirken's incompetence would bail them out, which he almost did.

Q17: How can a guild move from Class C, back to Class R?
A: If a Class C guild does not get a Class C kill for 30 days, then that guild can request that the staff place them back inside Class R. This request will be reviewed and then decided by the staff on a case by case basis.

The guild was not Class C is the point. The guild had cleared 0 targets at that point.

TMO is class C

[Alarti0001]

Did you not see any of the screenshots where they were blatantly conspiring to just pick off some class r mobs just because before they went after some class C targets? Or how the screenshot had their justification of "well IB turned into rampage so we can do whatever the hell we want too"

So? Can a guild not be class R if they intend to go to Class C at some point? I thought that was the rules. So we are pre-punishing intentions now?

[Samoht]

Q17: How can a guild move from Class C, back to Class R?
A: If a Class C guild does not get a Class C kill for 30 days, then that guild can request that the staff place them back inside Class R. This request will be reviewed and then decided by the staff on a case by case basis.

The guild was not Class C is the point. The guild had cleared 0 targets at that point.

TMO is class C

What Q17 does not say is that they can reform as a new guild and pretend like they're class R all of a sudden.

I might be getting *too* good at this.

[cs616]

Did you not see any of the screenshots where they were blatantly conspiring to just pick off some class r mobs just because before they went after some class C targets? Or how the screenshot had their justification of "well IB turned into rampage so we can do whatever the hell we want too"

No, I didnt. I only visit the boards when Im bored these days.

As for arguing semantics samoht, I wasnt the one using inaccurate language that drastically changed the portrayal of what actually happened. 97% of the same people is drastically different than being 97% comprised of. For example, if 4 people leave a 10,000 person company to create their own start of, it is extremely disingenuous to say that they are 100% the same people when it is actually 0.04% of the same people.

Dont blame me because people dont understand how to express simple math.

[Samoht]

No, you're just arguing about how they worded it vs what they intended to say and what you know they intended to say because that's a convenient way for you to discredit them even though it does nothing to progress the discussion. The Foreskin raids were at least 93% former TMO members. It has been proven. Let's just move forward with that knowledge instead of harping on how someone might have said that Foreskin is 93%TMO members and you interpreted that as Foreskin is 93% of TMO members.

[Llodd]

Some people are overly obsessed by logic to the point where all common sense is lost.

[cs616]

Moving on is fine with me, just dont get pissy because I called out an exaggerated percentage for being exaggerated (which is was with how it was worded). Unlike our rule system on this server, I make my judgments on what is actually said and done as opposed to what I think someone's intention is or was.

[Mistle]

Q17: How can a guild move from Class C, back to Class R?
A: If a Class C guild does not get a Class C kill for 30 days, then that guild can request that the staff place them back inside Class R. This request will be reviewed and then decided by the staff on a case by case basis.

The guild was not Class C is the point. The guild had cleared 0 targets at that point.

TMO is class C

The players that made up the guild were almost without exception class C raiders from the same class C guild including that guild's raid leader and with at least partial access to that class C's guild assets and was in fact using a member from that Class C guild as its FTEer during the window, a time frame in which that member never left position.

Is your argument that this does not matter? If that is the case, what is stopping any class C guild from splitting off half its roster (even alts) every time a class R mob is going in window and reabsorbing them afterwards? Would you consider that okay as well?

The players matter. Examination of the players by Rogean left no doubt that the guild WAS class C regardless of their attempts at semantics (FWIW if Forsaken is fighting this ruling anywhere but here they're doing a good job of keeping it quiet, an example you should really start following) because of the context of the PLAYERS involved.

[Alarti0001]

Is your argument that this does not matter? If that is the case, what is stopping any class C guild from splitting off half its roster (even alts) every time a class R mob is going in window and reabsorbing them afterwards? Would you consider that okay as well?


How is this even a similar situation? Has TMO reabsorbed Forsaken or do they have plans to?

[Faron]

Do you ever shut up?

[Mistle]

How is this even a similar situation? Has TMO reabsorbed Forsaken or do they have plans to?

Now you're claiming the GMs have to have foresight of what the intentions of a guild's players are? The situation is EXACTLY the same, one step further. So please answer the question: should it be okay for guilds to split off members into a new guild to take class R mobs? If so, then, well, we don't really have any common basis for discussing that because I would consider that opinion pants on head retarded. If not, then you admit your standards require the GM have foreknowledge of a guild's intentions. And no matter whether or not you agree or disagree, you have no answer to the fact the guild was composed almost entirely of members and leaders of one other class C guild without any reason to treat them differently except they had a different name.

[Samoht]

I think we should all have cascading sister, child, splinter guilds so that we can circumvent all class divisions and lockouts. In TMO today, Foreskin tomorrow, then Taken, BDA, and back to TMO for VP repops on Monday. It's not against the rules because the lockouts follow the guilds.

[Alarti0001]

Now you're claiming the GMs have to have foresight of what the intentions of a guild's players are? The situation is EXACTLY the same, one step further. So please answer the question: should it be okay for guilds to split off members into a new guild to take class R mobs? If so, then, well, we don't really have any common basis for discussing that because I would consider that opinion pants on head retarded. If not, then you admit your standards require the GM have foreknowledge of a guild's intentions. And no matter whether or not you agree or disagree, you have no answer to the fact the guild was composed almost entirely of members and leaders of one other class C guild without any reason to treat them differently except they had a different name.

No I am claiming that they don't need punish BEFORE something happens. The situations aren't the same. No punishment needed until Forsaken tried to re-enter TMO.

[Mistle]

The punishment is for players of a class C guild killing a class R target, not for re-entering the guild afterwards.

As Rogean indicated, when essentially all the players are from a class C guild, they will continue to be considered class C even if they splinter off, so that situations like the one I put to you cannot happen. As Rogean said,

You can not simply reform your guild to change classes.

The example I gave simply serves to illustrate the problems of your interpretation of the rules.

[Alarti0001]

The punishment is for players of a class C guild killing a class R target, not for re-entering the guild afterwards.

As Rogean indicated, when essentially all the players are from a class C guild, they will continue to be considered class C even if they splinter off, so that situations like the one I put to you cannot happen. As Rogean said,



The example I gave simply serves to illustrate the problems of your interpretation of the rules.

I know this might be a crazy idea.. but have you ever considered the possibility that Rogean is fallible?

TMO did not reform into Forsaken. Forsaken members left TMO to pursue other interests. Somewhat like if they mass apped to another guild.

[Samoht]

I know this might be a crazy idea.. but have you ever considered the possibility that Rogean is fallible?

TMO did not reform into Forsaken. Forsaken members left TMO to pursue other interests. Somewhat like if they mass apped to another guild.

Q17: How can a guild move from Class C, back to Class R?
A: If a Class C guild does not get a Class C kill for 30 days, then that guild can request that the staff place them back inside Class R. This request will be reviewed and then decided by the staff on a case by case basis.

The guild was not Class C is the point. The guild had cleared 0 targets at that point.

TMO is class C

What Q17 does not say is that they can reform as a new guild and pretend like they're class R all of a sudden.

Asked and answered.

[Mistle]

I know this might be a crazy idea.. but have you ever considered the possibility that Rogean is fallible?

Under that logic a guild could claim it is a new guild whenever they drop someone or add someone.

Essentially you are acknowledging that it is a judgement call, and as a situation that obviously doesn't come up very much that's entirely reasonable. I find Rogean's judgement of where the line does NOT stand to be very fair and logical. A set of people almost entirely from a single Class C guild using said Class C's raid leader as leader having at least partial access to said Class C's guild assets and actively engaging said Class C's guildmembers on its raids before switching their tags is a reasonable set of circumstances to declare the guild a class C guild attempting to evade the class restriction system. Simply assuming they got to be class R just because they have a new name reeks of "it is better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission", and the leaks from their forums indicated they knew it was risky and they should have clarified first if they didn't just feel like it was their God-given right as the uberest of the uberest to just shit on anyone they felt like (seriously, its typical of these guys to gloat at the idea of swiping a mob from BDA but what they did to Anonymous for a Maestro was beyond contemptable).

I find your definitions of where the line should be to be too open to abuse, as indicated by examples given in which you would allow the players of guilds to switch classes on a whim if they just remove the tag first, nothing else mattering.

TMO did not reform into Forsaken. Forsaken members left TMO to pursue other interests. Somewhat like if they mass apped to another guild.

Do you actually believe that the situation that happened and one in which they joined another guild in Class R are that similar?

If Rampage right now merged in Anonymous, do you think they should be free to go after Class R mobs?

[Alarti0001]

Under that logic a guild could claim it is a new guild whenever they drop someone or add someone.

Essentially you are acknowledging that it is a judgement call, and as a situation that obviously doesn't come up very much that's entirely reasonable. I find Rogean's judgement of where the line does NOT stand to be very fair and logical. A set of people almost entirely from a single Class C guild using said Class C's raid leader as leader having at least partial access to said Class C's guild assets and actively engaging said Class C's guildmembers on its raids before switching their tags is a reasonable set of circumstances to declare the guild a class C guild attempting to evade the class restriction system. Simply assuming they got to be class R just because they have a new name reeks of "it is better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission", and the leaks from their forums indicated they knew it was risky and they should have clarified


That is kind of the point.. the entire ruleset is arbitrary.
However, the guild is more than simply a new name. Its new officers, DKP, guild bank etc. Its similar to when FE split from BDA. FE was composed of primarily BDA members but they were obviously a new entity. Of course class system wasn't installed yet.


I find your definitions of where the line should be to be too open to abuse, as indicated by examples given in which you would allow the players of guilds to switch classes on a whim if they just remove the tag first, nothing else mattering.


Abuse by whom? The point of the new raid rules was to promote server peace in a sense right, to cut down on petitions and staff work and to try to foster a healthy raid environment? You would think the people who "championed" that cause (Class R) would be more inclined to inclusiveness instead of exclusiveness.
I'd gladly take a few mob losses for inclusiveness and to keep suspensions low as much as possible.


Do you actually believe that the situation that happened and one in which they joined another guild in Class R are that similar?


Yep.


If Rampage right now merged in Anonymous, do you think they should be free to go after Class R mobs?

Yes

[Mistle]

That is kind of the point.. the entire ruleset is arbitrary.
However, the guild is more than simply a new name. Its new officers, DKP, guild bank etc. Its similar to when FE split from BDA. FE was composed of primarily BDA members but they were obviously a new entity. Of course class system wasn't installed yet.

The server rules have matured since then. This is the first time I am aware of where a guild has truly split in two without any other guild's involvement since class system was implemented. Interpretation of Q17 strongly suggests that without precedent, the daughter guilds of a pure split (no significant influx of outside members) should be considered the same as their parent until they have permission otherwise since they are composed of PLAYERS that were class C. Now we have precedent to support it. It was using an old officer as leader, included DKP adjustments due to levels in the previous guild, and had at least partial access to guild assets. It was entirely reasonable to refuse to call them a new unaffiliated entity.


Abuse by whom? The point of the new raid rules was to promote server peace in a sense right, to cut down on petitions and staff work and to try to foster a healthy raid environment? You would think the people who "championed" that cause (Class R) would be more inclined to inclusiveness instead of exclusiveness.
I'd gladly take a few mob losses for inclusiveness and to keep suspensions low as much as possible.

Class R is pretty darn inclusive, actually. Guilds have made an effort to let Anonymous have shots at Maestro without interference, Indignation was congratulated for clearly winning their VS over BDA not villified, and you won't hear people admit it out loud but had there been a repop on the second outage last night Divinity, a guild most people seem to be regarding as virtually dead on the raid scene, probably would have gotten Trak. Class R is fulfilling its role as the "restricted" class, it's not being dominated by anyone.

But that works because Class R welcomes people coming up into it, not guilds jumping down from above. These smaller guilds trying to stay independent are trying to prove they can do it on their own. What would Forsaken have to prove? VP geared tanks, clerics, and DPS following a raid leader they have followed for years can handle Maestro and Sev? Would anyone actually buy that? Their own forums lend the lie to that.



Yep.

Yes

Well obviously we wouldn't agree so let me put it a different way: regardless of your opinion on what you think is the BETTER solution, do you understand and agree that Rogean's reasoning for his ruling is valid? Do you accept that there is valid reasons to believe a daughter guild shouldn't be treated as an entirely new guild?

[Samoht]

Well obviously we wouldn't agree so let me put it a different way: regardless of your opinion on what you think is the BETTER solution, do you understand and agree that Rogean's reasoning for his ruling is valid? Do you accept that there is valid reasons to believe a daughter guild shouldn't be treated as an entirely new guild?

Protip: don't ever ask for Alarti's opinion. He's going to use it as an open invitation to completely ignore the question and rephrase it and morph it until the question gives him a self-declared victory on conditions he sets and paint you wrong and TMO as an untouchable entity filled with god-status players.

[Alarti0001]

Interpretation of Q17 strongly suggests that without precedent, the daughter guilds of a pure split (no significant influx of outside members) should be considered the same as their parent until they have permission otherwise since they are composed of PLAYERS that were class C.


No it doesn't strongly suggest that at all. You must agree that it doesn't strongly suggest anything regarding the situation.

Q17: How can a guild move from Class C, back to Class R?
A: If a Class C guild does not get a Class C kill for 30 days, then that guild can request that the staff place them back inside Class R. This request will be reviewed and then decided by the staff on a case by case basis.


Now we have precedent to support it. It was using an old officer as leader, included DKP adjustments due to levels in the previous guild, and had at least partial access to guild assets. It was entirely reasonable to refuse to call them a new unaffiliated entity.


Nope not reasonable. Cherry picking data.




But that works because Class R welcomes people coming up into it, not guilds jumping down from above. These smaller guilds trying to stay independent are trying to prove they can do it on their own. What would Forsaken have to prove? VP geared tanks, clerics, and DPS following a raid leader they have followed for years can handle Maestro and Sev? Would anyone actually buy that? Their own forums lend the lie to that.


What does any guild have to prove? Why does Forsaken have specialized expectations? BDA has been killing Sev Maestro etc for years. BDA is allowed to be Class R.




Well obviously we wouldn't agree so let me put it a different way: regardless of your opinion on what you think is the BETTER solution, do you understand and agree that Rogean's reasoning for his ruling is valid? Do you accept that there is valid reasons to believe a daughter guild shouldn't be treated as an entirely new guild?

Nope. I think its a better position to allow a new guild who fractured to decide its path. The judgement was an extra unneeded social control that serves no real purpose.

[Uggme]

Alarti, we get it, you don't like the raid rules. You are trying to point out what you percieve is a flaw in them.

No ruleset is going to be 100% perfect. If you are actually able to formulate one then you've accomplished a miracle.

It's also clear you believe the staff favor and scorn various groups and that punishment is unjustly handed out. To that I have the following to say: deal with it. It's not your box.

Perhaps the people that are being punished here are deserving of the treatment they are getting. Perhaps they are not. However the staff has presented evidence regarding their decision and why they made the decision. It makes sense. Making up your own. Interpretation of the rules being enforced is a good way to disappoint yourself. You'll never win.

[Samoht]

What does any guild have to prove? Why does Forsaken have specialized expectations? BDA has been killing Sev Maestro etc for years. BDA is allowed to be Class R.

It's funny that you bring them into this. BDA has taken a class C cooldown. Has Foreskin?

[Samoht]

You'll never win.

Won't stop him from posting essays. I'm not sure who he's trying to convince, though. One key aspect regarding communication is to know your audience. I'm seriously confused about who his audience is any more. And I'm fairly certain he doesn't know, either.

[arsenalpow]

http://i.imgur.com/U7kUBPh.jpg

Recruiting any level 60 warrior you see Forsaken?? Y I K E S!

You should know I brainwash my members better than that.

[Mistle]

No it doesn't strongly suggest that at all. You must agree that it doesn't strongly suggest anything regarding the situation.

Q17: How can a guild move from Class C, back to Class R?
A: If a Class C guild does not get a Class C kill for 30 days, then that guild can request that the staff place them back inside Class R. This request will be reviewed and then decided by the staff on a case by case basis.


It definitely does once the context of the players involved, regardless of the name above their head, is included. With the exception of one Omni character, the raiding Forsaken were composed entirely of raiders from a single class C guild (including at least one who didn't even bother to change the tag until after he was already actively attempting to gain FTE for Forsaken). This indicates that class C guild must ask for permission to drop to class R. Forsaken was a class C guild regardless of what tag they had decided to fly.


Nope not reasonable. Cherry picking data.

Your opinion is noted however the evidence presented against you is both valid and strong. I hope you will realize... eventually... that you are not the sole arbiter of what is valid or not. Anything else is just jamming your head in the sand.


What does any guild have to prove? Why does Forsaken have specialized expectations? BDA has been killing Sev Maestro etc for years. BDA is allowed to be Class R.

Forsaken has different expectations because it is a class C guild composed of class C experienced and equipped players with a shared class C history raiding under a class C raid leader they have all played with and raided under before.

It is not whether or not BDA is capable of being in Class C, it is whether or not it unfairly dominates class R, which it does not.


Nope. I think its a better position to allow a new guild who fractured to decide its path. The judgement was an extra unneeded social control that serves no real purpose.

Of course it serves a purpose, its the same purpose as putting the class system in place in the first place. If you don't agree with the class system, then you really have no standing to argue any of the particulars at all. In any event, the evidence presented that a daughter guild without any influx of outsiders is not a new guild is somewhere between very strong and overwhelming, and follows directly from something undeniable: what actually happened. Theorycrafted arguments tend to fall away at that point.

All you really have is "Rogean was wrong". Given the ruling, the burden of proof is on you to show how, and every element you've tried to bring up has met with overwhelming counterevidence. Or, to put another way, you've tried to show that Forsaken should be treated as a new entity but your argument is weak and unconvincing.

[Nibblewitz]

You should know I brainwash my members better than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRe8J4scGtU

[Uggme]

http://i.imgur.com/U7kUBPh.jpg

Recruiting any level 60 warrior you see Forsaken?? Y I K E S!

You should know I brainwash my members better than that.

Holy crap... Those SS's actually made me cringe. Pretty weak recruitment attempt. Hell, at least start off with some small talk or something.

[Samoht]

It definitely does once the context of the players involved, regardless of the name above their head, is included. With the exception of one Omni character, the raiding Forsaken were composed entirely of raiders from a single class C guild (including at least one who didn't even bother to change the tag until after he was already actively attempting to gain FTE for Forsaken). This indicates that class C guild must ask for permission to drop to class R. Forsaken was a class C guild regardless of what tag they had decided to fly.




Your opinion is noted however the evidence presented against you is both valid and strong. I hope you will realize... eventually... that you are not the sole arbiter of what is valid or not. Anything else is just jamming your head in the sand.




Forsaken has different expectations because it is a class C guild composed of class C experienced and equipped players with a shared class C history raiding under a class C raid leader they have all played with and raided under before.

It is not whether or not BDA is capable of being in Class C, it is whether or not it unfairly dominates class R, which it does not.




Of course it serves a purpose, its the same purpose as putting the class system in place in the first place. If you don't agree with the class system, then you really have no standing to argue any of the particulars at all. In any event, the evidence presented that a daughter guild without any influx of outsiders is not a new guild is somewhere between very strong and overwhelming, and follows directly from something undeniable: what actually happened. Theorycrafted arguments tend to fall away at that point.

All you really have is "Rogean was wrong". Given the ruling, the burden of proof is on you to show how, and every element you've tried to bring up has met with overwhelming counterevidence. Or, to put another way, you've tried to show that Forsaken should be treated as a new entity but your argument is weak and unconvincing.

Get wrekt, Alarti. Third time in same thread.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti, we get it, you don't like the raid rules. You are trying to point out what you percieve is a flaw in them.

No ruleset is going to be 100% perfect. If you are actually able to formulate one then you've accomplished a miracle.

It's also clear you believe the staff favor and scorn various groups and that punishment is unjustly handed out. To that I have the following to say: deal with it. It's not your box.

Perhaps the people that are being punished here are deserving of the treatment they are getting. Perhaps they are not. However the staff has presented evidence regarding their decision and why they made the decision. It makes sense. Making up your own. Interpretation of the rules being enforced is a good way to disappoint yourself. You'll never win.

It's absolutely not my box. If the GM's wanted to RMT and play favorites or even give a group of friends special treatment I am 100% fine with it. As long as they don't lie about it.

I don't think I'm making up an interpretation of the rules. I think the rules are so unclear they allow so many interpretations. If they aren't clearly defined then how can you be expected to follow the rules? If rules aren't clearly defined should you be punished? Obviously it's their box. However, staff does state that they have goals to be fair an equitable.

[Alarti0001]

It definitely does once the context of the players involved, regardless of the name above their head, is included. With the exception of one Omni character, the raiding Forsaken were composed entirely of raiders from a single class C guild (including at least one who didn't even bother to change the tag until after he was already actively attempting to gain FTE for Forsaken). This indicates that class C guild must ask for permission to drop to class R. Forsaken was a class C guild regardless of what tag they had decided to fly.


It doesn't. Q17 does not provide context. Saying it does is asinine or willful ignorance.

Your opinion is noted however the evidence presented against you is both valid and strong. I hope you will realize... eventually... that you are not the sole arbiter of what is valid or not. Anything else is just jamming your head in the sand.

Valid evidence is valid no matter the presenter. However could you dictate what evidence you think is valid?


Forsaken has different expectations because it is a class C guild composed of class C experienced and equipped players with a shared class C history raiding under a class C raid leader they have all played with and raided under before.

So you are saying class c equipped players with experience can't be a Class R guild. Seems like a ridiculous argument.

It is not whether or not BDA is capable of being in Class C, it is whether or not it unfairly dominates class R, which it does not.

Did Forsaken unfairly dominate Class R? Nope


Of course it serves a purpose, its the same purpose as putting the class system in place in the first place. If you don't agree with the class system, then you really have no standing to argue any of the particulars at all. In any event, the evidence presented that a daughter guild without any influx of outsiders is not a new guild is somewhere between very strong and overwhelming, and follows directly from something undeniable: what actually happened. Theorycrafted arguments tend to fall away at that point.

Your entire argument is just theorycraft. The problem is you are calling a few of your assertions facts... and you don't realize they aren't facts they may be your opinions but you need to learn to recognize the difference.

All you really have is "Rogean was wrong". Given the ruling, the burden of proof is on you to show how, and every element you've tried to bring up has met with overwhelming counterevidence. Or, to put another way, you've tried to show that Forsaken should be treated as a new entity but your argument is weak and unconvincing.

You say overwhelming counter evidence. But that doesn't make it true. You realize this correct? You have overwhelming opinions not facts.

[Samoht]

It doesn't. Q17 does not provide context. Saying it does is asinine or willful ignorance.

Valid evidence is valid no matter the presenter. However could you dictate what evidence you think is valid?

So you are saying class c equipped players with experience can't be a Class R guild. Seems like a ridiculous argument.

Did Forsaken unfairly dominate Class R? Nope

Your entire argument is just theorycraft. The problem is you are calling a few of your assertions facts... and you don't realize they aren't facts they may be your opinions but you need to learn to recognize the difference.

You say overwhelming counter evidence. But that doesn't make it true. You realize this correct? You have overwhelming opinions not facts.

^^^ Gets wrekt again. Basically pulls the Alarti "prove it" then calls it "opinion."

[Man0warr]

Did Forsaken unfairly dominate Class R? Nope

No one is saying Forsaken can't be Class R, including Rogean. Just that you have to wait 30 days (+2 week suspension).

[Mistle]

Why can't you quote properly suddenly? You didn't have any problem before?


It doesn't. Q17 does not provide context. Saying it does is asinine or willful ignorance.

It's also the opposite of what I actually said, which was that with context provided, Q17 provides the basis for the correct call, from which the actual ruling followed from. Disagree or not, the line of reasoning is straightforward and clear.


Valid evidence is valid no matter the presenter. However could you dictate what evidence you think is valid?

Obviously I think all the evidence I've referred to so far is valid. As for your argument, I think the validity of your evidence is hit and miss. You have claimed analogies to the FE/BDA split but there are critical differences in the state of the rules from then to now as well as the actions of both guilds. You compared to a merge with another guild but there was no merge and basically all the members came from one place, so there are critical differences there as well. You claim different leadership, but the leader of Forsaken was also a leader in TMO. You claim no access to the guildbank, but we know there was some overlap. You claim DKP was wiped but there seems to be influence of TMO DKP on Forsaken DKP. Basically all the premises of your argument require twisting or spinning to make them into what you want to say. Meanwhile, the argument put forward by Rogean and many people here is really straightforward and requires no contortions at all.


So you are saying class c equipped players with experience can't be a Class R guild. Seems like a ridiculous argument.

One of the benefits of being on the side that actually follows with what actually happened is the ability to laugh at and ignore statements like "seems like a ridiculous argument". As for what you posted, no, that's not what I said at all, and you probably know that, but strawmen are much easier to knock down, amirite? Class C players can of course be in a class R guild... but they can't all come from a single class C guild and have no players from a class R guild and suddenly call themselves a class R guild. Again, support: what actually happened. Tends to trump your theorycrafting. All you can say to rebut is "Rogean was wrong", but you can't prove how, just reiterate an opinion whose support has been dismissed.

Did Forsaken unfairly dominate Class R? Nope

Forsaken won the race for every mob it went for, could do so with VP geared characters, under a raid leader it had followed for months or years, playing with players who had been playing together at that gear level for just as long. No class R guild can claim all this. Given Forsaken was immediately booted out of class R, your declaration that it did not is simply false. Had it been considered a fair place for it to be, it would not have been removed, unless we fall back on your "Rogean was wrong" opinion which you need to support.


Your entire argument is just theorycraft. The problem is you are calling a few of your assertions facts... and you don't realize they aren't facts they may be your opinions but you need to learn to recognize the difference.

My premises are all facts, not opinions. Opinion is you attempting to dismiss them as less valid than they are, such as claiming the raid leader of TMO going to guild leader of Forsaken is enough of a difference to claim "different leadership". I don't need to do that, "raid leader of TMO" is quite enough. That's just one example.

The argument made from my premises is my opinion, but unlike your theorycraft, it also matches what actually happened in practice. This is a pretty key point.

You say overwhelming counter evidence. But that doesn't make it true. You realize this correct? You have overwhelming opinions not facts.

Is it just my opinion that Forsaken is led by a raid leader of TMO? Is it just my opinion that the membership of Forsaken has all raided together before for a significant amount of time, under said raid leader? Is it just my opinion that there is no significant level of membership from outside TMO added into the mix? Is it just my opinion that the guild was comfortable enough in its relationship with TMO to use TMO tagged characters during the window? Is it just my opinion that the gear and common experience level of these raiders would give them a significant advantage over true class R guilds in any raid where that would matter?

Which one of those is just an opinion, Alarti?

Now, what IS my opinion: that the precedents you claimed don't hold much comparative value, that your feeling that this was like a merge doesn't hold much water when they didn't actually merge with anyone, and that your descriptions of the DKP, guild bank, and differences in leadership are grossly overstated. Completely on board with that. But alas even if I was completely wrong on all of those, it just isn't enough.

[Samoht]

claiming the raid leader of TMO going to guild leader of Forsaken is enough of a difference to claim "different leadership".

2 previous officers from TMO are now offiers in Forsaken.

Ella has come forward and said that there are two more officers now, too.

[Heebo]

http://i.imgur.com/U7kUBPh.jpg

Recruiting any level 60 warrior you see Forsaken?? Y I K E S!

You should know I brainwash my members better than that.

Dottedup's recruitment strategy is /who all 55 60.

It's p embarrassing.

[Samoht]

And now we have confirmation that they get to carry over 250 DKP. What happened to the new DKP system?

[Big_Japan]

^^^ This idiot is tired of getting rekt by Yendor so he deflects to claim pseudo-victory in an issue he created and set the victory conditions himself. Coincidentally, nobody else gives a fuck that he never bothered to read the rest of the thread because he's the one that looks like a fool for thinking they should read it for him.

You, sir, are a master debater.

Why can't you quote properly suddenly? You didn't have any problem before?



It's also the opposite of what I actually said, which was that with context provided, Q17 provides the basis for the correct call, from which the actual ruling followed from. Disagree or not, the line of reasoning is straightforward and clear.




Obviously I think all the evidence I've referred to so far is valid. As for your argument, I think the validity of your evidence is hit and miss. You have claimed analogies to the FE/BDA split but there are critical differences in the state of the rules from then to now as well as the actions of both guilds. You compared to a merge with another guild but there was no merge and basically all the members came from one place, so there are critical differences there as well. You claim different leadership, but the leader of Forsaken was also a leader in TMO. You claim no access to the guildbank, but we know there was some overlap. You claim DKP was wiped but there seems to be influence of TMO DKP on Forsaken DKP. Basically all the premises of your argument require twisting or spinning to make them into what you want to say. Meanwhile, the argument put forward by Rogean and many people here is really straightforward and requires no contortions at all.




One of the benefits of being on the side that actually follows with what actually happened is the ability to laugh at and ignore statements like "seems like a ridiculous argument". As for what you posted, no, that's not what I said at all, and you probably know that, but strawmen are much easier to knock down, amirite? Class C players can of course be in a class R guild... but they can't all come from a single class C guild and have no players from a class R guild and suddenly call themselves a class R guild. Again, support: what actually happened. Tends to trump your theorycrafting. All you can say to rebut is "Rogean was wrong", but you can't prove how, just reiterate an opinion whose support has been dismissed.



Forsaken won the race for every mob it went for, could do so with VP geared characters, under a raid leader it had followed for months or years, playing with players who had been playing together at that gear level for just as long. No class R guild can claim all this. Given Forsaken was immediately booted out of class R, your declaration that it did not is simply false. Had it been considered a fair place for it to be, it would not have been removed, unless we fall back on your "Rogean was wrong" opinion which you need to support.




My premises are all facts, not opinions. Opinion is you attempting to dismiss them as less valid than they are, such as claiming the raid leader of TMO going to guild leader of Forsaken is enough of a difference to claim "different leadership". I don't need to do that, "raid leader of TMO" is quite enough. That's just one example.

The argument made from my premises is my opinion, but unlike your theorycraft, it also matches what actually happened in practice. This is a pretty key point.



Is it just my opinion that Forsaken is led by a raid leader of TMO? Is it just my opinion that the membership of Forsaken has all raided together before for a significant amount of time, under said raid leader? Is it just my opinion that there is no significant level of membership from outside TMO added into the mix? Is it just my opinion that the guild was comfortable enough in its relationship with TMO to use TMO tagged characters during the window? Is it just my opinion that the gear and common experience level of these raiders would give them a significant advantage over true class R guilds in any raid where that would matter?

Which one of those is just an opinion, Alarti?

Now, what IS my opinion: that the precedents you claimed don't hold much comparative value, that your feeling that this was like a merge doesn't hold much water when they didn't actually merge with anyone, and that your descriptions of the DKP, guild bank, and differences in leadership are grossly overstated. Completely on board with that. But alas even if I was completely wrong on all of those, it just isn't enough.

didnt read lol

[Corpsed]

*chirp* *chirp*

[Alarti0001]

Why can't you quote properly suddenly? You didn't have any problem before?


Can't or wont? I didn't feel like it :P

It's also the opposite of what I actually said, which was that with context provided, Q17 provides the basis for the correct call, from which the actual ruling followed from. Disagree or not, the line of reasoning is straightforward and clear.


Nope its very clear that Q17 doesn't provide an answer for the situation... is q17 detailed elsewhere? Its not about disagreement its about simple reading comprehension. Nothing in Q17 says what you says it does. Saying otherwise is just a lie.



Obviously I think all the evidence I've referred to so far is valid. As for your argument, I think the validity of your evidence is hit and miss. You have claimed analogies to the FE/BDA split but there are critical differences in the state of the rules from then to now as well as the actions of both guilds. You compared to a merge with another guild but there was no merge and basically all the members came from one place, so there are critical differences there as well. You claim different leadership, but the leader of Forsaken was also a leader in TMO. You claim no access to the guildbank, but we know there was some overlap. You claim DKP was wiped but there seems to be influence of TMO DKP on Forsaken DKP. Basically all the premises of your argument require twisting or spinning to make them into what you want to say. Meanwhile, the argument put forward by Rogean and many people here is really straightforward and requires no contortions at all.


I really don't understand how this is so hard for you. FE/BDA split was an anecdote not a point of reference for a ruling. Same goes for merging with another guild. Do you think that if Rampage merged into BDA that BDA would then be considered class C?
It is different leadership. Corova was the guild leader with multiple officers under him in TMO which would include detoxx and swage. Forsaken has a new leader and mostly new officers -swage including a couple people who are no longer officers. How can you claim this guildbank information? You are operating on assumption not fact. DKP was wiped...seems is weak language indication you don't know what you are talking about. An appeal to the masses doesn't make your argument fact. I hope you realize this.



One of the benefits of being on the side that actually follows with what actually happened is the ability to laugh at and ignore statements like "seems like a ridiculous argument". As for what you posted, no, that's not what I said at all, and you probably know that, but strawmen are much easier to knock down, amirite?


It's not a strawman I was following your logical path. This seems to indication that the problem with Forsaken is that they have class C things. Items/experience etc. It takes away from your argument which is why I pointed it out.

Forsaken has different expectations because it is a class C guild composed of class C experienced and equipped players with a shared class C history raiding under a class C raid leader they have all played with and raided under before.



Class C players can of course be in a class R guild... but they can't all come from a single class C guild and have no players from a class R guild and suddenly call themselves a class R guild.


Why? What is the reasoning behind this?


Again, support: what actually happened. Tends to trump your theorycrafting. All you can say to rebut is "Rogean was wrong", but you can't prove how, just reiterate an opinion whose support has been dismissed.



How could I prove it... its an opinion. You don't seem to realize this. We both have opinions about how something should be handled and its based on a very unclear rule without any precedent. Is this the problem you are having?


Forsaken won the race for every mob it went for, could do so with VP geared characters, under a raid leader it had followed for months or years, playing with players who had been playing together at that gear level for just as long. No class R guild can claim all this. Given Forsaken was immediately booted out of class R, your declaration that it did not is simply false. Had it been considered a fair place for it to be, it would not have been removed, unless we fall back on your "Rogean was wrong" opinion which you need to support.


Now you are saying Forsaken was booted out of Class R because it was dominant? I thought it was a 30 day lockout thing? Pick your argument please.
If a Class R guild was dominant in Class R and never killed Class C targets would it be kicked out? What rule says this?

The Rogean is wrong opinion is easy to prove. There isn't a clear rule that accounted for this situation. He made a decision based on a rule that says Guild Type C can't kill Guild Type R mobs unless they wait for 30 days.
The rule did not see if a portion of a Guild Type C guild make a completely new guild with new infrastructure they also can not kill Type R mobs for 30 days.

The purpose of the rule is to prevent Class C guilds from taking dragonloots from Class R guilds. If this rule wasn't in place TMO or IB or Rampage etc would just kill your mobs. That wasn't what happened here. Forsaken is a new entity who had a desire to be in Class R until they can get their footing before entering Class C.


My premises are all facts, not opinions. Opinion is you attempting to dismiss them as less valid than they are, such as claiming the raid leader of TMO going to guild leader of Forsaken is enough of a difference to claim "different leadership". I don't need to do that, "raid leader of TMO" is quite enough. That's just one example.


But your premises aren't all facts. Raid Leadership in TMO isn't the same as Leadership. Raid leaders are people who can be on and call the shots. They don't run the guild deal with the bank or administration etc etc. Anyone can be a raid leader if they know the encounter and arent afraid to bark orders. Sorry if this isn't clear to you.


The argument made from my premises is my opinion, but unlike your theorycraft, it also matches what actually happened in practice. This is a pretty key point.


Except it doesn't even if you claim so. The big hangup is the root of your argument that Q17 clearly covers this situation. Clearly it doesn't.


Is it just my opinion that Forsaken is led by a raid leader of TMO? Is it just my opinion that the membership of Forsaken has all raided together before for a significant amount of time, under said raid leader? Is it just my opinion that there is no significant level of membership from outside TMO added into the mix? Is it just my opinion that the guild was comfortable enough in its relationship with TMO to use TMO tagged characters during the window? Is it just my opinion that the gear and common experience level of these raiders would give them a significant advantage over true class R guilds in any raid where that would matter?



Which one of those is just an opinion, Alarti?


Which one of those matter to the argument at hand? Seems like none. Because you have opinions does nothing to make them matter concerning the subject.
Did they use TMO tagged characters to raid? Only one that might matter here.


Now, what IS my opinion: that the precedents you claimed don't hold much comparative value, that your feeling that this was like a merge doesn't hold much water when they didn't actually merge with anyone, and that your descriptions of the DKP, guild bank, and differences in leadership are grossly overstated. Completely on board with that. But alas even if I was completely wrong on all of those, it just isn't enough.

Considering that I probably know just a LITTLE bit more than you about TMO's guild bank... and TMO's leadership style... I would say you are posting your opinions from a place of comparative ignorance.

[Lojik]

If you want to win an argument against Alarti just use caps lock.

[Big_Japan]

Can't or wont? I didn't feel like it :P


Nope its very clear that Q17 doesn't provide an answer for the situation... is q17 detailed elsewhere? Its not about disagreement its about simple reading comprehension. Nothing in Q17 says what you says it does. Saying otherwise is just a lie.




I really don't understand how this is so hard for you. FE/BDA split was an anecdote not a point of reference for a ruling. Same goes for merging with another guild. Do you think that if Rampage merged into BDA that BDA would then be considered class C?
It is different leadership. Corova was the guild leader with multiple officers under him in TMO which would include detoxx and swage. Forsaken has a new leader and mostly new officers -swage including a couple people who are no longer officers. How can you claim this guildbank information? You are operating on assumption not fact. DKP was wiped...seems is weak language indication you don't know what you are talking about. An appeal to the masses doesn't make your argument fact. I hope you realize this.




It's not a strawman I was following your logical path. This seems to indication that the problem with Forsaken is that they have class C things. Items/experience etc. It takes away from your argument which is why I pointed it out.

Forsaken has different expectations because it is a class C guild composed of class C experienced and equipped players with a shared class C history raiding under a class C raid leader they have all played with and raided under before.




Why? What is the reasoning behind this?




How could I prove it... its an opinion. You don't seem to realize this. We both have opinions about how something should be handled and its based on a very unclear rule without any precedent. Is this the problem you are having?



Now you are saying Forsaken was booted out of Class R because it was dominant? I thought it was a 30 day lockout thing? Pick your argument please.
If a Class R guild was dominant in Class R and never killed Class C targets would it be kicked out? What rule says this?

The Rogean is wrong opinion is easy to prove. There isn't a clear rule that accounted for this situation. He made a decision based on a rule that says Guild Type C can't kill Guild Type R mobs unless they wait for 30 days.
The rule did not see if a portion of a Guild Type C guild make a completely new guild with new infrastructure they also can not kill Type R mobs for 30 days.

The purpose of the rule is to prevent Class C guilds from taking dragonloots from Class R guilds. If this rule wasn't in place TMO or IB or Rampage etc would just kill your mobs. That wasn't what happened here. Forsaken is a new entity who had a desire to be in Class R until they can get their footing before entering Class C.



But your premises aren't all facts. Raid Leadership in TMO isn't the same as Leadership. Raid leaders are people who can be on and call the shots. They don't run the guild deal with the bank or administration etc etc. Anyone can be a raid leader if they know the encounter and arent afraid to bark orders. Sorry if this isn't clear to you.



Except it doesn't even if you claim so. The big hangup is the root of your argument that Q17 clearly covers this situation. Clearly it doesn't.





Which one of those matter to the argument at hand? Seems like none. Because you have opinions does nothing to make them matter concerning the subject.
Did they use TMO tagged characters to raid? Only one that might matter here.



Considering that I probably know just a LITTLE bit more than you about TMO's guild bank... and TMO's leadership style... I would say you are posting your opinions from a place of comparative ignorance.

yikes

[Ezalor]

> being so autistic you line-for-line parsed someone 100-page rant on an everquest forum to debate them

[Ravager]

> being so autistic you line-for-line parsed someone 100-page rant on an everquest forum to debate them

He'll do it until 4am too if everyone keeps him going.

[Alarti0001]

> being so autistic you line-for-line parsed someone 100-page rant on an everquest forum to debate them

^^ Being so autistic that you don't have the attention span to read though a a handful of paragraphs. (shot attention span being an actual symptom of autism)

[Mistle]

Can't or wont? I didn't feel like it :P

Suggests you want out of the argument and can't find any graceful way to do it.


Nope its very clear that Q17 doesn't provide an answer for the situation... is q17 detailed elsewhere? Its not about disagreement its about simple reading comprehension. Nothing in Q17 says what you says it does. Saying otherwise is just a lie.

Other than the fact Q17 is the very reason Forsaken got bumped. Saying otherwise is just a lie.

I really don't understand how this is so hard for you. FE/BDA split was an anecdote not a point of reference for a ruling. Same goes for merging with another guild. Do you think that if Rampage merged into BDA that BDA would then be considered class C?

Yes, a merged Rampage/BDA would almost certainly be considered class C. This was mostly semantic bullshit and therefore I assume you're trying to back off of your "anecdotes" as any kind of supporting evidence, which makes sense considering how easily they were dismissed.

It is different leadership.

The leadership of Forsaken may not be identical to the leadership of old TMO but it is close enough to be considered so. Players leading TMO now leading Forsaken, with no one from outside TMO in a leadership position. It is NOT different leadership.

How can you claim this guildbank information? You are operating on assumption not fact. DKP was wiped...seems is weak language indication you don't know what you are talking about. An appeal to the masses doesn't make your argument fact. I hope you realize this.

No appeal to the masses was made, but obviously your first year philosophy class was insufficient for YOU to realize this. Are you claiming there was no influence of TMO DKP on Forsaken's DKP? This is in direct opposition to what other people in Forsaken have said.

It's not a strawman

Yeah, it was. It was not the argument I made, yet you attacked it. Classical strawman, and another indication that you know how weak your argument is.


I was following your logical path. This seems to indication that the problem with Forsaken is that they have class C things. Items/experience etc. It takes away from your argument which is why I pointed it out.

Incomplete and therefore incorrect and doubling down on the strawman.


Forsaken has different expectations because it is a class C guild composed of class C experienced and equipped players with a shared class C history raiding under a class C raid leader they have all played with and raided under before.


Yep. Shouldn't have excluded what the point was in order to focus on your strawman, because this is clear evidence of a guild that was considered class C. Reality trumps your theory once more.

Why? What is the reasoning behind this?

Deflection. The reasoning has already been established, since it is the very core of why they were moved to class C. Think I haven't seen someone desperate try to bog down a debate before?


How could I prove it... its an opinion. You don't seem to realize this. We both have opinions about how something should be handled and its based on a very unclear rule without any precedent. Is this the problem you are having?

It is more the problem you are having accepting that the other side of the argument has any support at all. Shall I go back into the thread for your dismissive replies to people trying to lead you to water? If I do need to bother to spend the time, will you apologize to each and every one of them for doing so if you're just now going to cry "we just all have different opinions man!" Otherwise there doesn't seem to be any point.


Now you are saying Forsaken was booted out of Class R because it was dominant?[/quote[

Strawman. Not what I said at all.

[QUOTE=Alarti0001;1935349] I thought it was a 30 day lockout thing? Pick your argument please.

It hasn't changed. You're just twisting as hard as you can.

The Rogean is wrong opinion is easy to prove. There isn't a clear rule that accounted for this situation.

Oh there is, and it's pretty clear actually. I'm sorry he can't quite make it clear enough for YOU... it is becoming apparent that is going to be an impossible goal.

He made a decision based on a rule that says Guild Type C can't kill Guild Type R mobs unless they wait for 30 days.
The rule did not see if a portion of a Guild Type C guild make a completely new guild with new infrastructure they also can not kill Type R mobs for 30 days.

He will do so when that situation comes up, I am sure. This situation, of course, as people who can understand what happened already know, is not that situation, since it's not a completely new guild, as already proven.


The purpose of the rule is to prevent Class C guilds from taking dragonloots from Class R guilds. If this rule wasn't in place TMO or IB or Rampage etc would just kill your mobs. That wasn't what happened here. Forsaken is a new entity who had a desire to be in Class R until they can get their footing before entering Class C.

Except they weren't.


But your premises aren't all facts. Raid Leadership in TMO isn't the same as Leadership.

Evidence disagrees with you. All leaders of Forsaken are previous leaders of TMO.


Raid leaders are people who can be on and call the shots. They don't run the guild deal with the bank or administration etc etc. Anyone can be a raid leader if they know the encounter and arent afraid to bark orders. Sorry if this isn't clear to you.

Doesn't need to be clear to me. It's clear to Rogean. I agree with his reasoning. It's pretty solid. Yours isn't. It's based on false claims of "new guilds" and "different leaders".

Except it doesn't even if you claim so. The big hangup is the root of your argument that Q17 clearly covers this situation. Clearly it doesn't.

No, what happened in reality says clearly it DOES.

Think I'm wrong? I'm sure you'll get right on that petition to reverse the ruling. Let me know how that goes!


Which one of those matter to the argument at hand? Seems like none. Because you have opinions does nothing to make them matter concerning the subject.
Did they use TMO tagged characters to raid? Only one that might matter here.

Seems like all to me, and to Rogean. Sorry.



Considering that I probably know just a LITTLE bit more than you about TMO's guild bank... and TMO's leadership style... I would say you are posting your opinions from a place of comparative ignorance.

Your honesty is in doubt. You've been caught lying. If you were honest, you would admit there is a DKP influence and elements of TMO's assets moved over to Forsaken.

[Alarti0001]

Suggests you want out of the argument and can't find any graceful way to do it.

No suggests that I just posted colored text and not a quote. Why so derp?


Other than the fact Q17 is the very reason Forsaken got bumped. Saying otherwise is just a lie.

Nope Forsaken got bumped because Rogean said so


Yes, a merged Rampage/BDA would almost certainly be considered class C. This was mostly semantic bullshit and therefore I assume you're trying to back off of your "anecdotes" as any kind of supporting evidence, which makes sense considering how easily they were dismissed.

This is a difference of opinion and not a fact. Separate the two for your own well-being"]


The leadership of Forsaken may not be identical to the leadership of old TMO but it is close enough to be considered so. Players leading TMO now leading Forsaken, with no one from outside TMO in a leadership position. It is NOT different leadership.

Not Identical by definitions is Different. You are starting to get very very stupid

No appeal to the masses was made, but obviously your first year philosophy class was insufficient for YOU to realize this. Are you claiming there was no influence of TMO DKP on Forsaken's DKP? This is in direct opposition to what other people in Forsaken have said.

I'm claiming the DKP is different. Not that it would matter that much. Appeal to the masses occurred when you
Appeal to masses.. plain as day>>>>the argument put forward by Rogean and many people here is really straightforward and requires no contortions at all <<<<


Yeah, it was. It was not the argument I made, yet you attacked it. Classical strawman, and another indication that you know how weak your argument is.

Why was it in your statement then? TO distract?


Incomplete and therefore incorrect and doubling down on the strawman.




Yep. Shouldn't have excluded what the point was in order to focus on your strawman, because this is clear evidence of a guild that was considered class C. Reality trumps your theory once more.

Your reality isn't real


Deflection. The reasoning has already been established, since it is the very core of why they were moved to class C. Think I haven't seen someone desperate try to bog down a debate before?

Asking a question for you to clarify your answer is the exact opposite of deflection


It is more the problem you are having accepting that the other side of the argument has any support at all. Shall I go back into the thread for your dismissive replies to people trying to lead you to water? If I do need to bother to spend the time, will you apologize to each and every one of them for doing so if you're just now going to cry "we just all have different opinions man!" Otherwise there doesn't seem to be any point.

Appeal to the masses.. what a few or many people said doesn't matter unless they are correct. Christianity has 1billion+ followers for example.

Strawman. Not what I said at all.

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 View Post
Did Forsaken unfairly dominate Class R? Nope

Forsaken won the race for every mob it went for, could do so with VP geared characters, under a raid leader it had followed for months or years, playing with players who had been playing together at that gear level for just as long. No class R guild can claim all this. Given Forsaken was immediately booted out of class R, your declaration that it did not is simply false.


Read what you write. It seems clear that you are saying my declaration was wrong which is evidenced by Forsaken getting booted out of class R. You are embarrassing yourself now.



Oh there is, and it's pretty clear actually. I'm sorry he can't quite make it clear enough for YOU... it is becoming apparent that is going to be an impossible goal.

Already detailed how to make it clear. Its very obviously not clear which is why there are plenty of people who thought it would have been fine to kill class R

He will do so when that situation comes up, I am sure. This situation, of course, as people who can understand what happened already know, is not that situation, since it's not a completely new guild, as already proven.'

Logical Fallacy claiming higher knowledge without demonstrating evidence



Except they weren't.




Evidence disagrees with you. All leaders of Forsaken are previous leaders of TMO.

Blatantly incorrect


Doesn't need to be clear to me. It's clear to Rogean. I agree with his reasoning. It's pretty solid. Yours isn't. It's based on false claims of "new guilds" and "different leaders".

DING DING DING... and you have given up

No, what happened in reality says clearly it DOES.

So because a punishment happened that means a rule is clear? Have you played on this server before? LMAO

Think I'm wrong? I'm sure you'll get right on that petition to reverse the ruling. Let me know how that goes!

I'm not a Forsaken member I won't be petitioning anything

Seems like all to me, and to Rogean. Sorry.

Logical Fallacy appeal to authority



Your honesty is in doubt. You've been caught lying. If you were honest, you would admit there is a DKP influence and elements of TMO's assets moved over to Forsaken.

how was I lying... you do understnad the definition of lying correct?Your intelligence is in doubt

[Big_Japan]

do you two have no shame? what would your families think if they could see this?

[Mistle]

I was socking anyways (mm Donals for me). Looks like Alarti is so desperate to get out of the argument he won't make it quotable. I guess that's a concession of all terms?

[Samoht]

I was socking anyways (mm Donals for me). Looks like Alarti is so desperate to get out of the argument he won't make it quotable. I guess that's a concession of all terms?

It would probably be much better for his health in the long run if he does concede.

[JayN]

Irony when a group of innocent nice guys leave the mean loot hungry jerks to onl

[JayN]

only be the same loot hungry jerks they were leaving

[Kushie]

http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/30600000/hi-my-name-ugly-white-ape-blaze-the-cat-30664198-300-412.jpg

[JayN]

Forsaken way to bounce out away from the negative power hungry lootwhore bros!
http://www.dmn3.com/hs-fs/hub/244478/file-1489051511-png/images/blog/Duh-Winning-55132393261.png

[Merekai]

Please continue to pick apart every single post made by one another line by line. You all are fucking psychos. Go do something productive like take a shit, will be a massive improvement.

Chev

[Troubled]

god i hate this thread

[Kushie]

http://www.mctexas.com/mcstateimages/operators/1000020221/Picture_890.jpg.jpg

[Jimjam]

You know what?

It sucks when a rules call is made and you're in a situation that isn't adequately covered by the scope of what the rules originally intended but the call that is made is not the one you hoped for.

I know these ex-TMO members was hoping to get away from the negative public opinion of that guild by creating a new guild, which some unfortunately viewed as a rebranding exercise.

I wish best of luck to new guild Forsaken and hope they continue in their efforts to create a new, less vilified guild!

Is Forsaken looking to drop in to Class-R properly, or will your cool down period have been more than enough time to get organised and ready for Class C?

[central scrutinizer]

Stop letting him derail. It's his thing, it's what he does. He's really good at it because you co-operate every time. He's trolling you with your own pedantic compulsions. And by you, I mean the many, many retards that have died on his hook. How the fuck do you not understand how to avoid this kind of shit in 2015? Innocent telenet babes were not so dense. Get your shit together.

This is probably the last chance for any p99 rant to even come close to being as amusing as the rants from eq live. Stop squandering it.

[Mistle]

Stop letting him derail. It's his thing, it's what he does. He's really good at it because you co-operate every time. He's trolling you with your own pedantic compulsions. And by you, I mean the many, many retards that have died on his hook. How the fuck do you not understand how to avoid this kind of shit in 2015? Innocent telenet babes were not so dense. Get your shit together.


/chuckle

Board warriors like to think that its all just"trolling u" and "for the lulz". You dony really understand the Alartis of the world, though, if you think thats all it is. It's not. It's literally a compulsion with guys like that. He made his posts unquotable and switched to insults because he is DESPERATE for people to stop replying because he can't.

Ever.

Back when I was on usenet there were threads ten times this length from people making nerds twist. The fear of a reply being allowed to go past without an immediate reply, oh my god the humanity!

Now lets get back to talking about TWO EFFIN DONALS FROM TRAK.

[Ravager]

/chuckle

Board warriors like to think that its all just"trolling u" and "for the lulz". You dony really understand the Alartis of the world, though, if you think thats all it is. It's not. It's literally a compulsion with guys like that. He made his posts unquotable and switched to insults because he is DESPERATE for people to stop replying because he can't.

Ever.

Back when I was on usenet there were threads ten times this length from people making nerds twist. The fear of a reply being allowed to go past without an immediate reply, oh my god the humanity!

Now lets get back to talking about TWO EFFIN DONALS FROM TRAK.

The only time Alarti ever let anyone get the last word in was when he was banned from the boards. I'm surprised he's had the willpower not to dredge up 6 month old posts that he wasn't able to reply to before.

[B4EQWASCOOL]

The only time Alarti ever let anyone get the last word in was when he was banned from the boards. I'm surprised he's had the willpower not to dredge up 6 month old posts that he wasn't able to reply to before.

There may be an issue if you, "just can't be wrong."

[Clark]

^^^ This idiot is tired of getting rekt by Yendor so he deflects to claim pseudo-victory in an issue he created and set the victory conditions himself. Coincidentally, nobody else gives a fuck that he never bothered to read the rest of the thread because he's the one that looks like a fool for thinking they should read it for him.

You, sir, are a master debater.

http://funnyneel.com/manual/animal-happy/smiling-laughing-animals%20(18).jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/znuhiq.jpg

[Clark]

Samoht vs Alarti battle for middle earth.

[ArumTP]

Class R is pretty darn inclusive, actually. Guilds have made an effort to let Anonymous have shots at Maestro without interference, Indignation was congratulated for clearly winning their VS over BDA not villified, and you won't hear people admit it out loud but had there been a repop on the second outage last night Divinity, a guild most people seem to be regarding as virtually dead on the raid scene, probably would have gotten Trak. Class R is fulfilling its role as the "restricted" class, it's not being dominated by anyone.

Class R is dominated by BDA and Taken, we can all see you're fucking guildtag on raid.php

R isn't inclusive, you're taken, BDA, or gimpatron. R was the place where people were perfectly happy with their turn on the list to kill a dragon. That is untill BDA and taken rather than moving on to C decided fuck you we're going to take it all. You can't say anything going on in there is much different than C, other than due to lockouts you look a potentially smaller spectrum of mobs at any given time

Maestro is a poor example of any type of raid mob, and I wouldn't be surprised if thats the only thing Anonymous does. To futher themselves they will likely need to join gimpatron

Haggard Krew would not have felt the need to go to C, modeling themselves after what Asgard does, for kills if was inclusive.

Indignation hasn't appeared to have done anything since that VS. They seem to be a dead guild.

Divinity is an equally dead guild.

R isn't a learning ground, it is a walled garden for BDA and Taken to farm and a meat grinder for everyone else.

[Man0warr]

If Velious was on time, Class system would already be gone. Stop bitching about it.

[central scrutinizer]

/chuckle

Board warriors like to think that its all just"trolling u" and "for the lulz". You dony really understand the Alartis of the world, though, if you think thats all it is. It's not. It's literally a compulsion with guys like that. He made his posts unquotable and switched to insults because he is DESPERATE for people to stop replying because he can't.

Ever.

Back when I was on usenet there were threads ten times this length from people making nerds twist. The fear of a reply being allowed to go past without an immediate reply, oh my god the humanity!

Now lets get back to talking about TWO EFFIN DONALS FROM TRAK.

Oh I understand him perfectly. Whenever his people get bad pr, he jumps in and grinds everything down. And morons take the bait every single time.

[Samoht]

we're going to take it all.

Your hate seems misplaced considering that that's not even possible with the class R lockouts.

[arsenalpow]

Class R is dominated by BDA and Taken, we can all see you're fucking guildtag on raid.php

R isn't inclusive, you're taken, BDA, or gimpatron. R was the place where people were perfectly happy with their turn on the list to kill a dragon. That is untill BDA and taken rather than moving on to C decided fuck you we're going to take it all. You can't say anything going on in there is much different than C, other than due to lockouts you look a potentially smaller spectrum of mobs at any given time

Maestro is a poor example of any type of raid mob, and I wouldn't be surprised if thats the only thing Anonymous does. To futher themselves they will likely need to join gimpatron

Haggard Krew would not have felt the need to go to C, modeling themselves after what Asgard does, for kills if was inclusive.

Indignation hasn't appeared to have done anything since that VS. They seem to be a dead guild.

Divinity is an equally dead guild.

R isn't a learning ground, it is a walled garden for BDA and Taken to farm and a meat grinder for everyone else.

We offered reform in the rotation system. We wanted guilds to stop picking and choosing the targets they allied for. We wanted kills to be faster. The only guilds that supported the reform were BDA, Taken, and Divinity. Every other guild said "fuck you, you can't do this" expecting Sirken to keep the rotation going.

So guess what, now the rotation is dead and guilds are allying across the board, exactly what we wanted in the first place yet now there's no peaceful rotation to go with it. Takes two to tango, and Gimpatron didn't want to dance.

[Big_Japan]

Class R is dominated by BDA and Taken, we can all see you're fucking guildtag on raid.php

R isn't inclusive, you're taken, BDA, or gimpatron. R was the place where people were perfectly happy with their turn on the list to kill a dragon. That is untill BDA and taken rather than moving on to C decided fuck you we're going to take it all. You can't say anything going on in there is much different than C, other than due to lockouts you look a potentially smaller spectrum of mobs at any given time

Maestro is a poor example of any type of raid mob, and I wouldn't be surprised if thats the only thing Anonymous does. To futher themselves they will likely need to join gimpatron

Haggard Krew would not have felt the need to go to C, modeling themselves after what Asgard does, for kills if was inclusive.

Indignation hasn't appeared to have done anything since that VS. They seem to be a dead guild.

Divinity is an equally dead guild.

R isn't a learning ground, it is a walled garden for BDA and Taken to farm and a meat grinder for everyone else.

Despite what many might think, the Everquest guild Forsaken is well known across hundreds of nations all over the world. the Everquest guild Forsaken has been around for several centuries and has a very important meaning in the lives of many. It would be safe to assume that the Everquest guild Forsaken is going to be around for a long time and have an enormous impact on the lives of many people.test for introduce3

Social & Cultural Factors

the Everquest guild Forsaken has a large role in American Culture. Many people can often be seen taking part in activities associated with the Everquest guild Forsaken. This is partly because people of most ages can be involved and families are brought together by this. Generally a person who displays their dislike for the Everquest guild Forsaken may be considered an outcast.

Economic Factors

It is not common practice to associate economics with the Everquest guild Forsaken. Generally, the Everquest guild Forsaken would be thought to have no effect on our economic situation, but there are in fact some effects. The sales industry associated with the Everquest guild Forsaken is actually a 2.3 billion dollar a year industry and growing each year. The industry employs nearly 150,000 people in the United States alone. It would be safe to say that the Everquest guild Forsaken play an important role in American economics and shouldn't be taken for granted.

Environmental Factors

After a three month long research project, I've been able to conclude that the Everquest guild Forsaken doesn't negatively effect the environment at all. A the Everquest guild Forsaken did not seem to result in waste products and couldn't be found in forests, jungles, rivers, lakes, oceans, etc... In fact, the Everquest guild Forsaken produced some positive effects on our sweet little nature.

Political Factors

Oh does the Everquest guild Forsaken ever influence politics. Last year 5 candidates running for some sort of position used the Everquest guild Forsaken as the primary topic of their campaign. A person might think the Everquest guild Forsaken would be a bad topic to lead a campaign with, but in fact with the social and environmental impact is has, this topic was able to gain a great number of followers. These 5 candidates went 4 for 5 on winning their positions.

Conclusion

the Everquest guild Forsaken seem to be a much more important idea that most give credit for. Next time you see or think of the Everquest guild Forsaken, think about what you just read and realize what is really going on. It is likely you under valued the Everquest guild Forsaken before, but will now start to give the credited needed and deserved.

Footnotes

the Everquest guild Forsaken researched in wikipedia. the Everquest guild Forsaken @ dictionary.com

[Visual]

So guess what, now the rotation is dead and guilds are allying across the board, exactly what we wanted in the first place yet now there's no peaceful rotation to go with it. Takes two to tango, and Gimpatron didn't want to dance.

Changed your tune real quick once you were in a position of power. Regular Robert Mugabe over here.

[Ravager]

Class R is dominated by BDA and Taken, we can all see you're fucking guildtag on raid.php

R isn't inclusive, you're taken, BDA, or gimpatron. R was the place where people were perfectly happy with their turn on the list to kill a dragon. That is untill BDA and taken rather than moving on to C decided fuck you we're going to take it all. You can't say anything going on in there is much different than C, other than due to lockouts you look a potentially smaller spectrum of mobs at any given time

Maestro is a poor example of any type of raid mob, and I wouldn't be surprised if thats the only thing Anonymous does. To futher themselves they will likely need to join gimpatron

Haggard Krew would not have felt the need to go to C, modeling themselves after what Asgard does, for kills if was inclusive.

Indignation hasn't appeared to have done anything since that VS. They seem to be a dead guild.

Divinity is an equally dead guild.

R isn't a learning ground, it is a walled garden for BDA and Taken to farm and a meat grinder for everyone else.

Class R would have been like this from the start if BDA and namely Chest and Anichek didn't spearhead the rotation in the first place. Blame Gumption for the rotation failing when they refused to be reasonable about it.

[Ravager]

Class R would have been like this from the start if BDA and namely Chest and Anichek didn't spearhead the rotation in the first place. Blame Gumption for the rotation failing when they refused to be reasonable about it.

dumb tablet autocorrected gimpatron

[Cecily]

Might makes amirite?

[Colgate]

it's truly a great chortle to read you guys arguing about your system of filling out applications to press attack on 16 year old pixelated dragons

[cornisthebest]

why did i read all of this

[Samoht]

it's truly a great chortle to read you guys arguing about your system of filling out applications to press attack on 16 year old pixelated dragons

Yes, we understand that you'd rather play on a server with a max pop of 200 where you still have to exploit plat camps to get ahead. You don't have to keep reminding us how bad you are.

[Clark]

Yes, we understand that you'd rather play on a server with a max pop of 200 where you still have to exploit plat camps to get ahead. You don't have to keep reminding us how bad you are.

lol

[Susvain2]

lol
http://i.imgur.com/RTf29RS.png

[Aviann]

Hey Cecily, what's up?

[Llodd]

Class R would have been like this from the start if BDA and namely Chest and Anichek didn't spearhead the rotation in the first place. Blame Gumption for the rotation failing when they refused to be reasonable about it.

Did you not read the ridiculous tier system they wanted in place? None of the proposals, that I saw, had anything reasonable about them.

[Ravager]

Did you not read the ridiculous tier system they wanted in place? None of the proposals, that I saw, had anything reasonable about them.

We don't need to go into this again. It's passed and I've already expressed my opinions on the matter in another thread. If you really want my thoughts on it, go read it.

[waffel]

Just imagine if you guys took your careers and relationships as seriously as you take elf sims. You might actually have something to show for the ridiculous amount of time you've spent.

[portbitch69]

Just imagine if you guys took your careers and relationships as seriously as you take elf sims. You might actually have something to show for the ridiculous amount of time you've spent.

Been immersed since '99, only way out is in a body bag

[Llodd]

We don't need to go into this again. It's passed and I've already expressed my opinions on the matter in another thread. If you really want my thoughts on it, go read it.

tbh, cant be arsed. Just felt some context was appropriate.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Sorry for the late response... I was off banging supermodels in the back seat of my super expensive car while studying for my bar exam, or whatever we usually tell RNF instead of the sad, masturbatorial truth. Right now, I'm cringing while my girlfriend is giving me the play-by-play from the bathroom across the hall while she tries inserting a Diva Cup for the first time, so I'll try to block that out and take my mind off it by addressing your questions...

1) Isn't a fact under half of TMO membership joined Forsaken.

TMO is a Class C guild. TMO exists.
Forsaken is a new guild.

Okay, I will grant you that one... I forgot who I was dealing with and should have phrased it "A large majority of Forsaken consists of former TMO."

This is implied by the guildleader's statement.

Forsaken was formed for two main reasons: to finally remove the stigma of the tag we formerly held and at the same time keep the community of players together that I have considered family for years. This being the case, nearly everyone who was a part of this family was, of course, welcomed into our new home. The previous guild split into four factions, some to red, some who stayed, some who quit all together, and the remainder who came to Forsaken.

The implication is that TMO split off into Forsaken. I will take this one step further and state that it is FACT that without this exodus of TMO players, there would be no Forsaken right now.

What punitive measures was Forsaken or TMO under at that time? None--Fact Didn't cherry pick punitive measures. Punitive measures are a punishment. TMO was not being punished for anything... therefore nothing punitive to transfer.

We were simply agreeing that punitive measures an original guild is under should follow members of that guild if they were to break off and form a new guild. I was never stating that this was the case here.

Forsaken reformed as a new guild with no kill history. TMO still exists with over half of its original membership.

You're focused on the premise that changing guildnames should allow a subset of players to circumvent the server rules (specifically the one about the cooldown period going from Class C to Class R.)

If TMO was Class C and members from TMO move en masse to form another guild, they can't just escape the set of restrictions and rules that apply to TMO, a Class C guild. Doing so would allow any guild to split off to circumvent server rules that apply to that original guild, and clearly that is against the spirit of the rules.

Hold on, my girlfriend shoved that damn thing too far up and can't get it out... I'm not sure what she wants me to do about it. BRB.

Why didn't you answer the pertinent questions I asked you about guild splitting examples?(Cherry picking)

Please stop diverting and dodging these questions.

Punitive measures are assigned to all individuals in a guild class restrictions should be assigned to guilds. Are you are saying that if a TMO member apped to Taken and can now not raid class R mobs for 30 days.

Of course I'm not saying that. Stop being dense. I fail to see how a TMO member apping to Taken falls under the same situation as a large number of TMO splitting off to form another guild, Alarti. Come on now, you aren't even trying.

Is the majority of Forsaken the majority of TMO? If TMO instead splintered into 3-4 guilds...are all those guilds Class C? Where do you draw the line?

If TMO splinters into 3-4 guilds, which wouldn't have otherwise been in existence without those TMO members (i.e. they are compromised mostly of former TMO), then yes, they should remain Class C until they have completed the cool-down period. If it's that important to them to split into 3-4 guilds, start anew, and participate in Class R, then they can follow the rules to step down into Class R instead of trying to circumvent it by splintering. As someone else pointed out, this is the exact same thing TMO was threatening to do during the Class C/R raid discussions to spite the Class R guilds, so why are you acting surprised everyone is calling them on it now?

Based on your interpretation of the rules, TMO could splinter into 4 guilds, designate these "new guilds" as Class R instantly, compete for Class R targets up until they got locked out, and then reform into TMO and resume killing Class C mobs. The cooldown period kills that loophole, so it clearly must apply here.

If Forsaken instead merged with Taken... would they be Class R or Class C? If Forsaken merged into A-Team instead of taking a new guild name would they be Class R or Class C?[/COLOR][/SIZE]

Again, this situation is not a merger... please keep it apples to apples in your hypothetical situations instead of grasping at straws. This is a formation of a guild comprised mostly of former members of a Class C guild, without whom this newer guild would not exist today. But, to answer you, I would imagine that if a Class C and Class R guild were to merge and wanted to determine their new Class, the intelligent thing to do instead of starting to kill Class R mobs, would be to ask Rogean to make a call so there would be no backlash if they were to assume wrongly.

The funny thing is, IB did the same thing to you guys by forming up Transatlantic Rampage and then departing from their VP rotation agreement, claiming they were a "new guild" so the agreement didn't apply to them. Pretty sure the common response from TMO was not "Oh hey, yeah... totally different guildtag... you got us good. Clever thinking!"

Now, if you'll excuse me, sounds like my bathroom looks like a murder scene I have to go clean up. :(

[Tiggles]

Yesh Forsaken is a totally different guild.

http://i.imgur.com/V9N73BR.png

[charlie_murphy]

Yesh Forsaken is a totally different guild.

http://i.imgur.com/V9N73BR.png

Priceless.

[Samoht]

No context. No proof. How do we know that he didn't just type that in paint?

[charlie_murphy]

Who posted that Tiggles?

Why keep them anon at this point? The masses need to know.

[Magifyre]

Everything about this server's endgame scene is a retarded shit show.

[Tiggles]

Who posted that Tiggles?

Why keep them anon at this point? The masses need to know.

Sikorsky is yelling at people who posted Clarks Screenshot so I don't want to get banned.

and I don't really have any ill will towards 99% of the people in the guild and I hope they find what they are looking for in Forsaken.

I just think it's silly to try and act coy when Forsaken is clearly renamed TMO.

[JonnyX]

Tiggy posts a screenshot with no name, no date, no webpage attached to it... I for one totally believe him!

Even if it had all those things, its clear from the shadowstep and bard comment that it was probably made 2-3 months ago by someone just pissed. I mean I bet in the past 3-4 years on this server that no one has ever disagreed with a ruling before and thought about just quitting, joining another guild, reforming, aka doing something drastic. Also, its clear this one persons post must have been so overwhelmingly received that it was the key to spawning a new guild!

I don't care about Rampage or Forsaken, but this has gotta be one of the most asinine posts I've ever seen from you Tiggy.

[charlie_murphy]

Can someone explain the whole shadowstep thing? Why would that be considered against the rules?

[Samoht]

There was a gentleman's agreement to not use anything to move faster than SOW speed in VP. Apparently instant travel can be faster than SOW speed when it occurs in the correct vector.

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

duuuuuh

[kremlar]

Everything about this server's endgame scene is a retarded shit show.