Hey Forsaken

[Tiggles]

Red server looking a little better now?

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197530

themysticalorder.net

[Tongpow]

no, but other video games are

[JayN]

ouch GG

[Kushie]

HAHA

[Secrets]

I guess they didn't know that was Forsaken of them to do that

[Anichek]

Was Tribuzy an old spy placed in Omni? Is that like a sentence to serve program or something?

[Herp]

For the record, <Forsaken> officers and members were warned several times that killing class R mobs is a bad idea.

[contemptor]

Rip

[Alarti0001]

pras

[quido]

try red

[Cecily]

What about reforming your guild to avoid suspensions? That's fucked up.

[Bboboo]

Should just ban those 69 accounts tbh

[Cecily]

this is not the case with Rampage, and so i did not treat them that way. and as i told TMO, if they want to disband their guild to form another guild, if they want to wipe dkp, if they want to shut down the TMO website, if they install new leadership, and if they did all that without knowing that the suspension was coming (to ensure it wasnt being done to circumvent me), then id be ok with it. and that was why I told Rampage that they would not be suspended.

[Kanaya]

What about reforming your guild to avoid suspensions? That's fucked up.

[Socratic]

Can't say I'm surprised to see TMO members led into another hole by Sirken. No one has worked as hard to ensure Hoku-pal's success.

Too hard to say "don't do that" when talking about it before it even happens amiright Sirken? Rampage says ty for the setup.

So glad I don't play here any more. Being mislead by staff to set you guys up for a huge suspension as you're trying to reform and regroup. What you guys were trying to do was hard enough already.

Grats Rampage! The p99 staff approved guild!

[Swish]

Should just ban those 69 accounts tbh

[Swish]

Can't say I'm surprised to see TMO members led into another hole by Sirken. No one has worked as hard to ensure Hoku-pal's success.

Too hard to say "don't do that" when talking about it before it even happens amiright Sirken? Rampage says ty for the setup.

So glad I don't play here any more. Being mislead by staff to set you guys up for a huge suspension as you're trying to reform and regroup. What you guys were trying to do was hard enough already.

Grats Rampage! The p99 staff approved guild!

If you go for Chest's welfare pixels you better believe someone is going to step in.

[arsenalpow]

Rampage ended up having to eat those IB suspensions, I just don't think it was put out there for public consumption.

[Ella`Ella]

Rampage ended up having to eat those IB suspensions, I just don't think it was put out there for public consumption.

No they didn't.

[Big_Japan]

this is not the case with Rampage, and so i did not treat them that way. and as i told TMO, if they want to disband their guild to form another guild, if they want to wipe dkp, if they want to shut down the TMO website, if they install new leadership, and if they did all that without knowing that the suspension was coming (to ensure it wasnt being done to circumvent me), then id be ok with it. and that was why I told Rampage that they would not be suspended.

can you believe the p99 hotpocketeers actually get this involved in raid drama on a volunteer basis?* LOL

*me neither

[waffel]

Good reason for the members of Forsaken to reevaluate their lives. Maybe taking a video game so seriously isn't healthy behavior.

[Connecticut]

http://i62.tinypic.com/ru7l36.gif

[arsenalpow]

No they didn't.

According to Cucs on the reddit thread Rampage did. Now I'm not a fan of IB 2.0, but Cucs isn't prone to lying. Maybe you should do some fact checking.

[TotallyLegit]

...Maybe you should do some fact checking.

You are asking a lot.

[Swifty]

FEMO has sunk to a new low..

[Ella`Ella]

According to Cucs on the reddit thread Rampage did. Now I'm not a fan of IB 2.0, but Cucs isn't prone to lying. Maybe you should do some fact checking.

Of all people, do you think I'd be unaware of whether or not IB/Rampage actually got what was coming to them? While I've never considered Cucumbers much of a liar, if Rampage did serve any sort of 'punishment' it was so watered down it was immaterial. I think considering 'punishment server' is a gross misrepresentation.

[Samoht]

^ lol at TMO saying *anybody* else's punishment was watered down.

[arsenalpow]

Of all people, do you think I'd be unaware of whether or not IB/Rampage actually got what was coming to them? While I've never considered Cucumbers much of a liar, if Rampage did serve any sort of 'punishment' it was so watered down it was immaterial. I think considering 'punishment server' is a gross misrepresentation.

^ lol at TMO saying *anybody* else's punishment was watered down.

^

[Samoht]

HAY GUISE

WE GOT A 7 DAY SUSPENSION FROM VP

DON'T WORRY THO

WE GET UNBANNED ON MONDAY AND SHIT REPOPS ON TUESDAY

SO LOL JOKES ON THEM

[Itap]

yikes

[Ravager]

HAY GUISE

WE GOT A 7 DAY SUSPENSION FROM VP

DON'T WORRY THO

WE GET UNBANNED ON MONDAY AND SHIT REPOPS ON TUESDAY

SO LOL JOKES ON THEM

They were 5 day suspensions that were administered outside of mob windows.

[B4EQWASCOOL]

They were 5 day suspensions that were administered outside of mob windows.

Jokes on somaht now...

[Misek84]

First off anyone thinking that the move from tmo to forshaken was some conspiracy to move from C to R is delusional. I dont think getting a few "easier" class R kills is worth replacing leadership, wiping DKP, setting up new site, etc. The reason forshaken started in R was becuse they were not sure how many people will move to the new guild and they needed some time to get organized before moving to C (which is the main reason for class R, as a stepping stone to C).

With that said wiping the loot from the first week kills and suspending for an extra 2 weeks, comes to three week penalty. Thats way to harsh considering IB/Ramp never got any extra time when Ramp made kills during IBs suspension.

From my understanding staff would want a competetive raid scene, but thats really hard to do when the guild on top gets slaps on the hand while the guild trying to comp gets harsh penalties for "violations" that were not done on purpose or unknown it was a violation until after. Obviously TMO had issues and the reform was done so that it can stay competitive. By issuing this harsh penalty when forshaken is just trying to reorganize so it can start competing again is bad and leads one to question if staff even wants people to compete against ramp.

[Swish]

HAY GUISE

WE GOT A 7 DAY SUSPENSION FROM VP

DON'T WORRY THO

WE GET UNBANNED ON MONDAY AND SHIT REPOPS ON TUESDAY

SO LOL JOKES ON THEM

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCLYW4B5kugl0B1TtLCJNFLN1V_M0h_ Oo9xhbiMYOyzVpvg4vnZQ

[Pheer]

First off anyone thinking that the move from tmo to forshaken was some conspiracy to move from C to R is delusional. I dont think getting a few "easier" class R kills is worth replacing leadership, wiping DKP, setting up new site, etc. The reason forshaken started in R was becuse they were not sure how many people will move to the new guild and they needed some time to get organized before moving to C (which is the main reason for class R, as a stepping stone to C).

With that said wiping the loot from the first week kills and suspending for an extra 2 weeks, comes to three week penalty. Thats way to harsh considering IB/Ramp never got any extra time when Ramp made kills during IBs suspension.

From my understanding staff would want a competetive raid scene, but thats really hard to do when the guild on top gets slaps on the hand while the guild trying to comp gets harsh penalties for "violations" that were not done on purpose or unknown it was a violation until after. Obviously TMO had issues and the reform was done so that it can stay competitive. By issuing this harsh penalty when forshaken is just trying to reorganize so it can start competing again is bad and leads one to question if staff even wants people to compete against ramp.

http://www.project1999.com/raid.php

"Demotion from Class C to Class R may only be done at the approval of the Server Staff."

[Mistle]

For the record, <Forsaken> officers and members were warned several times that killing class R mobs is a bad idea.

The draw of shitting all over as many people as possible, starting with their forever enemies Anonymous, proved too strong for them.

/douches gonna douche

[Samoht]

Jokes on somaht now...

I said 7 when it was really 5, oh, woe is me. I think this deserves an unrelated GIF.

[arsenalpow]

First off anyone thinking that the move from tmo to forshaken was some conspiracy to move from C to R is delusional. I dont think getting a few "easier" class R kills is worth replacing leadership, wiping DKP, setting up new site, etc. The reason forshaken started in R was becuse they were not sure how many people will move to the new guild and they needed some time to get organized before moving to C (which is the main reason for class R, as a stepping stone to C).

With that said wiping the loot from the first week kills and suspending for an extra 2 weeks, comes to three week penalty. Thats way to harsh considering IB/Ramp never got any extra time when Ramp made kills during IBs suspension.

From my understanding staff would want a competetive raid scene, but thats really hard to do when the guild on top gets slaps on the hand while the guild trying to comp gets harsh penalties for "violations" that were not done on purpose or unknown it was a violation until after. Obviously TMO had issues and the reform was done so that it can stay competitive. By issuing this harsh penalty when forshaken is just trying to reorganize so it can start competing again is bad and leads one to question if staff even wants people to compete against ramp.

I don't think that's a fair assessment at all.

Yes, it was a circumvention of the class tiers. Rogean recognized that pretty quickly.

Rampage did serve some of IB's punishment. I don't know all the details so I can't give you an informed opinion if that punishment was fair and balanced. Rampage also stayed in class C the entire time so it's apples to oranges.

Changing your name and keeping 93% of the same roster doesn't mean you're a new guild. If they really wanted to test the waters they could have waited 30 days to cool down like we did. FFS they even got to keep a portion of the TMO dkp. Forsaken knew what they were doing and they got popped. That's on them.

I think the staff wants some sort of competiton, but when penalties aren't enforced equally and logically it makes people feel like there's an unfair advantage, and this balance of power changes periodically. It wasn't too long ago that IB left for eqmac because they thought Amelinda would never give them a fair shake (RMTing off all their loot in the process)

[arsenalpow]

The draw of shitting all over as many people as possible, starting with their forever enemies Anonymous, proved too strong for them.

/douches gonna douche

Are they forever enemies? I heard that they were actively courting anonymous to get absorbed at one point or another by letting them tag along to FFA encounters.

[Cecily]

By issuing this harsh penalty when forshaken is just trying to reorganize so it can start competing again is bad and leads one to question if staff even wants people to compete against ramp.

Velious launch would go much smoother with just one "competitive" guild. Isn't that what you, Hoku, and Rogean discussed over dinner, Unbrella? TMO / Rampage merger never happened so incoming sanctions. I don't have any vested in how any of this goes anymore, but it's sad to see my old guild getting kicked while they are down. Almost makes you wanna quit, huh? Maybe that's the point.

[Fzhoul]

Just posting here to clear it up. Anonymous has no direct enemies (at least from our end), we have been asked to merge in with a few guilds and our stance is the same. We are prepared to stand on our own now in the current raid environment and come velious.

[Rayzor84]

Velious launch would go much smoother with just one "competitive" guild. Isn't that what you, Hoku, and Rogean discussed over dinner, Unbrella? TMO / Rampage merger never happened so incoming sanctions. I don't have any vested in how any of this goes anymore, but it's sad to see my old guild getting kicked while they are down. Almost makes you wanna quit, huh? Maybe that's the point.

Your old guild shouldn't have tried to get around their class restrictions.

[Tiggles]

With Forsaken suspended till velious and rampage having 2 weeks of uncontested kills I think the velious launch of blue will be interesting..


And by interesting I mean it's going to suck.

[arsenalpow]

How about this, where is the correspondence from Sirken giving Forsaken approval to go nuts in class R?

http://i.imgur.com/UfDfs5C.png

They halfway thought it through, but I don't think they actually followed up with Sirken.

[Misek84]

From the IB raid suspension page around 3/2015 (my linking skill suck)

"if i remember correctly, this has only happened one other time, and it involved TMO using Enraptured to circumvent a raid suspension. Enraptured was created by TMO and used by TMO as an alt guild prior to the suspension coming down. I also watched TMO leadership telling members to get tagged in Enraptured to circumvent punishment, and i didn't allow it. it was literally the exact same leadership and was specifically ordered to be used to avoid punishment.

this is not the case with Rampage, and so i did not treat them that way. and as i told TMO, if they want to disband their guild to form another guild, if they want to wipe dkp, if they want to shut down the TMO website, if they install new leadership, and if they did all that without knowing that the suspension was coming (to ensure it wasnt being done to circumvent me), then id be ok with it. and that was why I told Rampage that they would not be suspended.

That said, multiple staff members have reviewed this decision, and it has been decided that these punishments will still remain with any players that were IB tagged at the time of the incident, as well as any players that are currently tagged under IB.
__________________
Project1999's First Cake Giveaway! - https://youtu.be/Rx6Z_wpZAFo

Sirken's Live Stream! www.twitch.tv/sirkenp99"

So as you can see staff almost let Ramp not even serve IB suspension but end up being they had to serve the last few days (during no repop days). There were no penalty for Ramp killing mobs when they were suppose to b suspended because they were considered a new guild. But when TMO reformed to Forshaken they are considered the same guild and get a 3 week suspension (included this week deleted loot). How id that fair?

[Cecily]

You can go off of Sirken's quote there and see their reasoning that they, as a new entity, would be allowed to have some autonomy in what their guild's raiding style would be like. It's just a punishment for not asking for permission and pretty shitty they weren't warned by staff beforehand.

[Samoht]

Wasn't Rampage formed from several guilds, though? And didn't an overwhelming majority of the current members of Foreskin come from a single entity? Seems like a difference to me.

[Cecily]

The vast majority of Rampage was composed of IB. I don't see a distinction there, and if you really wanna split hairs... Lord Bob merger is still fairly recent.

[Swish]

I said 7 when it was really 5, oh, woe is me.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtsI67Ziu6kwmN8r0BHPnMGoXlpbFmp 6xbo-q0SIU_CdieL7Du

[Misek84]

Wasn't Rampage formed from several guilds, though? And didn't an overwhelming majority of the current members of Foreskin come from a single entity? Seems like a difference to me.

If you wanna argue about some minor details (85% of IB moved over while 95% of TMo moved over or whatever) go ahead. There are no specific rules what is considered a "new guild" anyways.

All im saying is it looks biased when staff is pushing for Ramp to be considered a new guild to avoid serving remainder of its sus. But when TMO reforms in same way it isnt considered a "new guild" after it kills a few mobs in R and then slapped with a very harsh penalty.

[Tiggles]

Rampage was formed from IB and Ateam and The IB membership rampage did follow through with their suspensions (no mobs in window anyways)

Can't compare forsaken to to rampage,what forsaken did was wrong. It is an honest mistake though they will recover.

[Samoht]

If you wanna argue about some minor details (85% of IB moved over while 95% of TMo moved over or whatever) go ahead. There are no specific rules what is considered a "new guild" anyways.

What is the likelihood of your 85% figure being fabricated on the spot in order to prove your point? Do you have any actual numbers to back that claim?

[Cecily]

That figure was probably in reference to Unbrella's 3/17 post, possibly made up on the spot then, claiming Rampage's membership was 2/3s to over 75% old IB.

[Misek84]

What is the likelihood of your 85% figure being fabricated on the spot in order to prove your point? Do you have any actual numbers to back that claim?

It is made up thats why i but "or whatever" after it because no one knows exactly the %. But lets be serious most of the raiding people in ramp came from IB

[Cecily]

Hard to get an accurate head count because they didn't kill any class R mobs!

[Prismaticshop]

Forsaken is taking 2 weeks suspension, it's not that bad tbh.

Though you could argue when an new entity is a new entity ?

IB became Rampage : New website (x) , New leadership (x) , New Guild Name (x) , bigger chunk of new players (like 70% of A team came over) , 10 or 15% of IB quit.

TMO Becomes Forsaken : new website (x) , new leadership(x), new guild name (x), some TMO quit, some fresh blood from R guilds (x).

Yet harsh suspension. clear double standard here, but Rogean does what he does, it's his box I guess.

[arsenalpow]

Hard to get an accurate head count because they didn't kill any class R mobs!

I think that's the distinct point that you guys keep overlooking. Rampage remained in C. The only relevant scrutiny had to do with dodging some parts of a suspension, which they ended up serving (partially)

Forsaken dipping into R was grimy and punished accordingly.

[arsenalpow]

Forsaken is taking 2 weeks suspension, it's not that bad tbh.

Though you could argue when an new entity is a new entity ?

IB became Rampage : New website (x) , New leadership (x) , New Guild Name (x) , bigger chunk of new players (like 70% of A team came over) , 10 or 15% of IB quit.

TMO Becomes Forsaken : new website (x) , new leadership(x), new guild name (x), some TMO quit, some fresh blood from R guilds (x).

Yet harsh suspension. clear double standard here, but Rogean does what he does, it's his box I guess.

What fresh blood from R guilds? The one person that came over from Omni??

[Shinko]

hey don't be bashing my great idea chest

[Prismaticshop]

What fresh blood from R guilds? The one person that came over from Omni??

when I looked in game yesterday they had many new names that aren't on that list who come from several class R guilds, but I guess what matters is at the time of death of these kills which were their first.

[arsenalpow]

when I looked in game yesterday they had many new names that aren't on that list who come from several class R guilds, but I guess what matters is at the time of death of these kills which were their first.

I'd love to see names/numbers to back that up, and I'd like to see the same for the IB/A-Team merger for comparison. However, the fundamental difference between the two situations was killing class R targets. You can't really overlook that.

[Cecily]

Forsaken dipping into R was grimy and punished accordingly.

And I can understand why you, as leader of a class R guild, feel that way. However, it could have gone either way. I don't agree with you that they did anything wrong. Lol blue, I guess.

[Alarti0001]

This thread is a trap and its really just an indication about how unclear and stupid the raid rules/scene is on blue.

Sirken stated in his stream just the other day that he likes vague raid rules so it limits rule-lawyering. Of course this just allows GM's to hand out suspensions in an uneven and unintelligent manner.

Forsaken is a new entity with new leadership and new DKP. This was raid one for them and the suspension is unbalanced at best... which is another reason Chest would be supporting it.

I do find it funny that Forsaken is suspended but trying to apply past precedent on blue is equally funny. When has precedent ever mattered here? Enjoy lawyerquest.

[Prismaticshop]

I'd love to see names/numbers to back that up, and I'd like to see the same for the IB/A-Team merger for comparison. However, the fundamental difference between the two situations was killing class R targets. You can't really overlook that.

According to the raid system they were class R.

The nuance being debated here is what makes you a new entity, which is ruled on with different outcomes according to the number of new players you inject in the said entity.

Had Forsaken had more "new blood", let's say atleast 25 or 30% of new players, I'm sure Rogean would had ruled differently.

However, this ruled isn't stated anywhere, it's totally subjective.

[Alarti0001]

I'd love to see names/numbers to back that up, and I'd like to see the same for the IB/A-Team merger for comparison. However, the fundamental difference between the two situations was killing class R targets. You can't really overlook that.

new guild kills what it wants. its like saying if TMO broke up and most of there members joined Taken so now Taken is locked out... idiotic....

[Samoht]

hey don't be bashing my great idea chest

Stupid is as stupid does.

when I looked in game yesterday they had many new names that aren't on that list who come from several class R guilds, but I guess what matters is at the time of death of these kills which were their first.

This guy claims to know everybody in TMO and all of their alts. Must have a mind like a trap.

[Misek84]

Forsaken is taking 2 weeks suspension, it's not that bad tbh.

Though you could argue when an new entity is a new entity ?

IB became Rampage : New website (x) , New leadership (x) , New Guild Name (x) , bigger chunk of new players (like 70% of A team came over) , 10 or 15% of IB quit.

TMO Becomes Forsaken : new website (x) , new leadership(x), new guild name (x), some TMO quit, some fresh blood from R guilds (x).

Yet harsh suspension. clear double standard here, but Rogean does what he does, it's his box I guess.

Agree with you fully except with the part that it isnt that harsh. If forshaken was established and "winning" it wouldnt be that harsh. But for a guild just trying to reorganize and get back into it, it is harsh, especially considering velious is around the corner. Momentum is one of the main parts needed to succeed in this game

[bic]

Chest do you ever stop gobblin on cocks and use your brain for a moment?

Chill out on the cock gobblin bro.

[Cecily]

This guy claims to know everybody in TMO and all of their alts. Must have a mind like a trap.

It honestly was pretty easy till the geniuses started mass crooting (see Swish's comments on TMO app quality lately). Probably the best way to alienate your senior membership is have a guild get to the point where you don't recognize any of the names in guild chat.

I was always in favor of a more elitist, slower and selective app process to ensure the people with our tag weren't awful. Unfortunately, due to the severe toll it takes on players, Class C raiding is more about a constant supply of warm bodies than anything else.

[Misek84]

I'd love to see names/numbers to back that up, and I'd like to see the same for the IB/A-Team merger for comparison. However, the fundamental difference between the two situations was killing class R targets. You can't really overlook that.

The fundamental issue is the same: is forshaken a new entity thus allowed to start in class R, or is Rampage a new entity thus exempt from IB suspension. No idea how much more clearer i can get. There are no specific guidelines (75%, etc) but both reforms were basicly the same(new leadership, new dkp, new site). However in one instance staff argued that it was a new entity and that guild got no really penalty but in the other instance they argued it was NOT a new entity and they got a very harsh penalty. By defination it seems biased.

[arsenalpow]

IB (a class C guild) absorbs most of A-Team (a class R guild) and some free agents (Argh, Cucumbers) and renames themselves Rampage. They kill class C targets. Rampage still serves a portion of IB's pending suspensions: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1821260&postcount=5

TMO (a class C guild) absorbs no one, only removes a handful of people from their roster, and renames themselves Forsaken. They kill class R targets.

I know you TMO apologists want to defend this crap but it's not a double standard. The only relevant piece of information linking these two scenarios is that each situation resulted in a new guild name.

[Anichek]

hey don't be bashing my great idea chest

You need to update the bottom line in your signature.

[Shinko]

Don't worry <Tank For Hire> looking for more tanks

also selling Tanking needs for plat

[Samoht]

The fundamental issue is the same: is forshaken a new entity thus allowed to start in class R, or is Rampage a new entity thus exempt from IB suspension. No idea how much more clearer i can get. There are no specific guidelines (75%, etc) but both reforms were basicly the same(new leadership, new dkp, new site). However in one instance staff argued that it was a new entity and that guild got no really penalty but in the other instance they argued it was NOT a new entity and they got a very harsh penalty. By defination it seems biased.

Too bad that's not true, as pointed out here:

Wasn't Rampage formed from several guilds, though? And didn't an overwhelming majority of the current members of Foreskin come from a single entity? Seems like a difference to me.

[Alarti0001]

IB (a class C guild) absorbs most of A-Team (a class R guild) and some free agents (Argh, Cucumbers) and renames themselves Rampage. They kill class C targets. Rampage still serves a portion of IB's pending suspensions: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1821260&postcount=5

TMO (a class C guild) absorbs no one, only removes a handful of people from their roster, and renames themselves Forsaken. They kill class R targets.

I know you TMO apologists want to defend this crap but it's not a double standard. The only relevant piece of information linking these two scenarios is that each situation resulted in a new guild name.

Wait you are saying TMO was suspended at the time it dissolved? Do you even know how to compare like instances?

[arsenalpow]

The fundamental issue is the same: is forshaken a new entity thus allowed to start in class R, or is Rampage a new entity thus exempt from IB suspension. No idea how much more clearer i can get. There are no specific guidelines (75%, etc) but both reforms were basicly the same(new leadership, new dkp, new site). However in one instance staff argued that it was a new entity and that guild got no really penalty but in the other instance they argued it was NOT a new entity and they got a very harsh penalty. By defination it seems biased.

If you want to look at it in degrees Rampage was more of a "new entity" than Forsaken and even then Rampage ended up serving some of IB's suspension once all the dust settled. If anything that proves that a new guild name isn't a clean slate.

[Alarti0001]

Too bad that's not true, as pointed out here:

Your quote has 0 value. A guild's membership is changing daily. If you absorb A-team its do different then absorbing 20-30 apps.

[Shinko]

1

[Samoht]

Wait you are saying TMO was suspended at the time it dissolved? Do you even know how to compare like instances?

I don't see any reference to TMO suspension in his post. Do you reading comprehension?

[Prismaticshop]

IB (a class C guild) absorbs most of A-Team (a class R guild) and some free agents (Argh, Cucumbers) and renames themselves Rampage. They kill class C targets. Rampage still serves a portion of IB's pending suspensions: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1821260&postcount=5

TMO (a class C guild) absorbs no one, only removes a handful of people from their roster, and renames themselves Forsaken. They kill class R targets.

I know you TMO apologists want to defend this crap but it's not a double standard. The only relevant piece of information linking these two scenarios is that each situation resulted in a new guild name.

Chest I like you, but you are not reading what Sirken said :

"this is not the case with Rampage, and so i did not treat them that way. and as i told TMO, if they want to disband their guild to form another guild, if they want to wipe dkp, if they want to shut down the TMO website, if they install new leadership, and if they did all that without knowing that the suspension was coming (to ensure it wasnt being done to circumvent me), then id be ok with it. and that was why I told Rampage that they would not be suspended."

No suspension from IB followed Rampage under their new guild tag.

so what is your point bud?

[Turp]

new guild kills what it wants. its like saying if TMO broke up and most of there members joined Taken so now Taken is locked out... idiotic....

You know staff is not consistent when Alarti (someone who was not in Forsaken) comes to defend people who was bashing on him not even a week ago.

The main purpose of Forsaken was to push away from the TMO persona and start new , and Rogean just gave that a big slap in the face.

Why didn't the staff warn the members of Forsaken after the first kill?
Bet they would of went to class C the next kill, but rules here are overly complicated (even cryptic sometimes) and not enforced equally. Hell when it takes a lawyer just to read and decipher them correctly, you know its bad.

[Alarti0001]

I don't see any reference to TMO suspension in his post. Do you reading comprehension?

You might want to re-read your quote.

[Shinko]

worst

[arsenalpow]

Chest I like you, but you are not reading what Sirken said :

"this is not the case with Rampage, and so i did not treat them that way. and as i told TMO, if they want to disband their guild to form another guild, if they want to wipe dkp, if they want to shut down the TMO website, if they install new leadership, and if they did all that without knowing that the suspension was coming (to ensure it wasnt being done to circumvent me), then id be ok with it. and that was why I told Rampage that they would not be suspended."

No suspension from IB followed Rampage under their new guild tag.

so what is your point bud?
Gotta keep reading sir:

That said, multiple staff members have reviewed this decision, and it has been decided that these punishments will still remain with any players that were IB tagged at the time of the incident, as well as any players that are currently tagged under IB.
This resulted in Rampage just taking the suspension outright. I don't think they even attempted to go after targets with just former a-team members.

[Samoht]

You might want to re-read your quote.

Baited like the moran you are.

[Alarti0001]

You know staff is not consistent when Alarti (someone who was not in Forsaken) comes to defend people who was bashing on him not even a week ago.

The main purpose of Forsaken was to push away from the TMO persona and start new , and Rogean just gave that a big slap in the face.

Why didn't the staff warn the members of Forsaken after the first kill?
Bet they would of went to class C the next kill, but rules here are overly complicated (even cryptic sometimes) and not enforced equally. Hell when it takes a lawyer just to read and decipher them correctly, you know its bad.

The few dumbshits in Forsaken who would bash me have the combined mental capacity of a toddler and spend more time looking for conspiracy then formulating rational thought.
Still I believe that even mental idiots should still be treated fairly by rules that claim to be.... fair. Valid points are still valid no matter who utters them.
Also most of the Forsaken membership is "good people". Just like most of Rampage membership is "good people".

Further to my earlier point a large portion of Rampage is now former TMO so they should also eat this suspension. Since Forsaken also has BDA members it should be viewed as a class (casual) guild.

[Jimjam]

I think you have to look at the implications of a ruling.

If TMO was allowed to drop out of Class C by rebranding, kill a few Class R mobs while waiting for a desirable set of Class C mobs to spawn then Class C guilds could do this every week, destroying the point of the Class C / Class R divide.

If the staff were to allow a Class C to rebrand into Class R they would have to impose a lock out timer on requalifying for becoming Class C in order to preserve the integrity of the class division.

[Alarti0001]

Baited like the moran you are.

When you realize you lost your point..use logical fallacy. Maybe you can divert the topic!? NOPE

[Alarti0001]

I think you have to look at the implications of a ruling.

If TMO was allowed to drop out of Class C by rebranding, kill a few Class R mobs while waiting for a desirable set of Class C mobs to spawn then Class C guilds could do this every week, destroying the point of the Class C / Class R divide.

If the staff were to allow a Class C to rebrand into Class R they would have to impose a lock out timer on requalifying for becoming Class C in order to preserve the integrity of the class division.

TMO died. Forsaken had 0 brand. By your opinion no new guild could enter Class R because they might go Class C some day. Try again

[arsenalpow]

The few dumbshits in Forsaken who would bash me have the combined mental capacity of a toddler and spend more time looking for conspiracy then formulating rational thought.
Still I believe that even mental idiots should still be treated fairly by rules that claim to be.... fair. Valid points are still valid no matter who utters them.
Also most of the Forsaken membership is "good people". Just like most of Rampage membership is "good people".

Further to my earlier point a large portion of Rampage is now former TMO so they should also eat this suspension. Since Forsaken also has BDA members it should be viewed as a class (casual) guild.

Go ahead and list me some "BDA members" that went to Forsaken. I'll hang up and listen.

[Ravager]

Herpa derpa derp.

Prove it.

[Misek84]

If you want to look at it in degrees Rampage was more of a "new entity" than Forsaken and even then Rampage ended up serving some of IB's suspension once all the dust settled. If anything that proves that a new guild name isn't a clean slate.

Of course the two situations arent the same, no two ever are. What constitute a new entity is VERY subjective as demonstrated by this thread, and there are no set rules either. However, to say ramp punishment of serving a few days sus when there were no repops is the same as two weeks sus plus delation of prior week loot at this cruicial time is the same is just wrong. Even staff cant agree what is a "new entity" as demostrated by shirken comment i linked before. So why harshly punish one guild and barely punish another?

[Samoht]

When you realize you lost your point..use logical fallacy. Maybe you can divert the topic!? NOPE

Does this explain your focus on syntax over content?

[Alarti0001]

Go ahead and list me some "BDA members" that went to Forsaken. I'll hang up and listen.

Holy fuck Chest. It's a tongue-in-cheek anecdotal example about how stupid the rules are. The sheer fact you can't figure that out demonstrates a lot about your positions. Step away from the keyboard man.

[Merekai]

http://www.project1999.com/raid.php

"Demotion from Class C to Class R may only be done at the approval of the Server Staff."

I don't think Forsaken was trying to knowingly circumvent the class system, or whatever language Rogean used. The above rule is really the only thing that is relevant here though. The staff used the high % of former TMO making up the new guild to make a subjective judgement that Forsaken was comprised almost entirely of Class C raiders from a single previously established Class C guild, and should naturally be assigned C status. If there was communication with a GM before Forsaken killed class R mobs, saying yes this is approved then I would completely understand people being upset after having a suspension come down. If no concrete answer from a GM was given then exercising caution instead would have been the wise choice.

Sure we have some scenarios that have established precedence in terms of rules, but comparing situation X with situation Y doesn't really fly considering it is well known by most players who have had camp/raid disputes that GM's use their own discretion and you can't bank on a ruling in your favor last week equating to a ruling in your favor today in a similar, yet still unique scenario. Either way I wish Forsaken the best, I just wish your name didn't remind me of a guild of the same name back on Rodcet :P

Chev

[bic]

Chest do you realize that despite your burning rage for TMO/Forsaken, that YOU are actually the venomous entity on this server. What you did to the class R rotation that you previously self-congratulated yourself on for years is truly reprehensible. You walk around like some champion of the common man, but it is in fact you that took food out of your fellow class R players mouths. How you manage to fool any of these idiots is amazing. Neckbearding without neckbearding. Greed without greed. Loot-hungry newbs deploying the same no-life tactics class C does in class R, yet still maintaining an air of superiority about it.

Let's acknowledge the giant elephant in the room please and realize the class r/class c experiment failed. And ironically it failed because its very adopters ultimately gamed the very system they fought to create.

[Jimjam]

TMO died. Forsaken had 0 brand. By your opinion no new guild could enter Class R because they might go Class C some day. Try again

Staff opinion seems to be it was a rebrand, and that opinion is more relevant than whatever reality might have been.

What solution would you offer to prevent large groups of people flipping between classes by cycling the creation of new guilds?

Or do you not see that as a problem that would need to be addressed?

[Mistle]

The main purpose of Forsaken was to push away from the TMO persona and start new , and Rogean just gave that a big slap in the face.

Why didn't the staff warn the members of Forsaken after the first kill?
Bet they would of went to class C the next kill, but rules here are overly complicated (even cryptic sometimes) and not enforced equally. Hell when it takes a lawyer just to read and decipher them correctly, you know its bad.

They wanted to differentiate themselves from old TMO and start out by immediately trying to shit all over everyone they sneeringly dismiss as inferiors? Nothing says "same shit different name" like that...

As for why they werent warned, TMO ally Sirken admitted he didnt know just how high a percentage the TMO/Forsaken overlap was.

According to that screen grab and the fact they didnt go after available VP targets, they planned to shit on class R for at least a couple weeks.

Tbey knew EXACTLY what they were doing. Not behaving like assholes should not be as hard as it is for TMO. They thought they were being clever and taking loot by irrelevant small guilds and hater BDA. They were less clever than they thought.

[Cecily]

I'll play along, Chest. Uhhh Knix.

[Pringles]

TMO complaining about raid rules when TMO is a big part of the reason those raid rules exist. Grats all.

[Alarti0001]

If you want to look at it in degrees Rampage was more of a "new entity" than Forsaken and even then Rampage ended up serving some of IB's suspension once all the dust settled. If anything that proves that a new guild name isn't a clean slate.

Does this explain your focus on syntax over content?

Rampage being suspended and reforming to still eat some suspension has 0 relevance to TMO being dissolved while not under any punishment.

If you are going to try to impersonate me at least try to keep up kiddo.

[Troubled]

Now they have time to form up and sort shit out like they wanted. Grats :)

[Samoht]

I don't think Forsaken was trying to knowingly circumvent the class system, or whatever language Rogean used.

You must be the only one who hasn't seen the screen shot of their forums where they discuss using the rebrand as a tool to circumvent the class system.

[Alarti0001]

Staff opinion seems to be it was a rebrand, and that opinion is more relevant than whatever reality might have been.

What solution would you offer to prevent large groups of people flipping between classes by cycling the creation of new guilds?

Or do you not see that as a problem that would need to be addressed?

You are asking me to try to make a smart raid scene with the current raid structure? I wouldn't. The system is inherently flawed.

[Prismaticshop]

Staff opinion seems to be it was a rebrand, and that opinion is more relevant than whatever reality might have been.

What solution would you offer to prevent large groups of people flipping between classes by cycling the creation of new guilds?

Or do you not see that as a problem that would need to be addressed?

Like guilds reform every Weeks or some shit ?

TMO has been around for years, it's not like their reform every weeks.

What matters is and the core of the argument is what makes a new entity? The big issue on top of that is that both class C entities reformed recently.

[arsenalpow]

So why harshly punish one guild and barely punish another?
Rampage didn't kill class C targets.

Chest do you realize that despite your burning rage for TMO/Forsaken, that YOU are actually the venomous entity on this server. What you did to the class R rotation that you previously self-congratulated yourself on for years is truly reprehensible. You walk around like some champion of the common man, but it is in fact you that took food out of your fellow class R players mouths. How you manage to fool any of these idiots is amazing. Neckbearding without neckbearding. Greed without greed. Loot-hungry newbs deploying the same no-life tactics class C does in class R, yet still maintaining an air of superiority about it.

Let's acknowledge the giant elephant in the room please and realize the class r/class c experiment failed. And ironically it failed because its very adopters ultimately gamed the very system they fought to create.

Can't respond, too busy seething with rage or something.

[Alarti0001]

TMO complaining about raid rules when TMO is a big part of the reason those raid rules exist. Grats all.

This is factually incorrect. Considering the source... I'm not surprised.

[Samoht]

Rampage being suspended and reforming to still eat some suspension has 0 relevance to TMO being dissolved while not under any punishment.

If you are going to try to impersonate me at least try to keep up kiddo.

Chest says the two suspensions are unrelated and cannot be compared. You say the two suspensions are unrelated and cannot be compared. I'd posit that you're in agreement. Case closed.

By the way, learn the difference between parody and impersonation.

[Cecily]

So who else would like see to totally not TMO anymore take their punishment and then wait for demotion just to wreck class R out of spite?

[Prismaticshop]

You must be the only one who hasn't seen the screen shot of their forums where they discuss using the rebrand as a tool to circumvent the class system.

That screenshot where they mention to check with Sirken that it's fine ?

And where they mention Rampage "did it so we can do it too" ?

[Hitpoint]

You must be the only one who hasn't seen the screen shot of their forums where they discuss using the rebrand as a tool to circumvent the class system.

That's not what it shows..

[arsenalpow]

So who else would like see to totally not TMO anymore take their punishment and then wait for demotion just to wreck class R out of spite?

Sure. See you in 6 weeks.

[Cecily]

Naw. I'm done with this silly place for now.

[Misek84]

Staff opinion seems to be it was a rebrand, and that opinion is more relevant than whatever reality might have been.

What solution would you offer to prevent large groups of people flipping between classes by cycling the creation of new guilds?

Or do you not see that as a problem that would need to be addressed?

Lets be serious u really think forshaken was formed to cycle to R? If a guild was doing that it would be painfully obvious and no one would support them. You need to look at all the facts, and the simple fact that dkp was wiped, new loot system in place, new leadership, new website, etc proves this wasnt some "clever" scheme to cycle to R.

[Raev]

So why harshly punish one guild and barely punish another?

Did Forsaken consult with Sirken about their move to Class R? Or did they base it on two paragraphs of Sirken's post which were immediately contradicted by his third paragraph?

[Cecily]

It's not the brightest leadership TMO has ever had...

[Nirgon]

Wondering if any of you have the slightest concept of how horrible ToV will be here without staff enforced rotations

Come 2 red

[Jimjam]

Like guilds reform every Weeks or some shit ?I think if the ruling went the other way, this could have been a potential result.

What matters is and the core of the argument is what makes a new entity? The big issue on top of that is that both class C entities reformed recently.Agreed this is an issue. Until recently guilds have been easy to define. I have to agree with Alarti that the current system has all sorts of unintend consequences, such as having to redefine guild so it is more than just a tag (although I believe that was already a slight issue with the problems of 'alt guilds' in the past).

It's certainly an interesting discussion to read as someone completely outside to the guild scene.

[Alarti0001]

Chest says the two suspensions are unrelated and cannot be compared. You say the two suspensions are unrelated and cannot be compared. I'd posit that you're in agreement. Case closed.

By the way, learn the difference between parody and impersonation.


Reading Comprehension. If anything that proves that a new guild name isn't a clean slate. You should really try not to cherry-pick.

A parody (/ˈpærədi/; also called spoof, send-up or lampoon), in use, is a work created to imitate, make fun of, or comment on an original work, its subject, author, style, or some other target, by means of satiric or ironic imitation

Impersonation: an act of pretending to be another person for the purpose of entertainment or fraud.
"he did an impersonation of Fred Astaire"
synonyms: impression, imitation; More



It seems you're exactly as stupid as you pretend to be. As I said if you want to imitate me you really need to keep up.

[Colgate]

thank god on red there have only been like two instances of guilds getting raid suspended... ever

[Alarti0001]

Did Forsaken consult with Sirken about their move to Class R? Or did they base it on two paragraphs of Sirken's post which were immediately contradicted by his third paragraph?

This is the problem almost every raid rule ever posted is contradicted by either a Sirken tell or another Sirken post.

[Cecily]

It seems you're exactly as stupid as you pretend to be. As I said if you want to imitate me you really need to keep up.

You're both being pedantic assholes so he's doing ok lol.

[Alarti0001]

Wondering if any of you have the slightest concept of how horrible ToV will be here without staff enforced rotations

Come 2 red

I dislike PVP but I dislike arbitrary gm interference more

[Alarti0001]

Gotta keep reading sir:

This resulted in Rampage just taking the suspension outright. I don't think they even attempted to go after targets with just former a-team members.

When was Rampage suspended... for how long... what raid mobs spawned during their suspension.. what happened the day before their suspension...what are the repop timers on raid mobs?

GG

[Samoht]

Reading Comprehension. If anything that proves that a new guild name isn't a clean slate. You should really try not to cherry-pick.

A parody (/ˈpærədi/; also called spoof, send-up or lampoon), in use, is a work created to imitate, make fun of, or comment on an original work, its subject, author, style, or some other target, by means of satiric or ironic imitation

Impersonation: an act of pretending to be another person for the purpose of entertainment or fraud.
"he did an impersonation of Fred Astaire"
synonyms: impression, imitation; More

It seems you're exactly as stupid as you pretend to be. As I said if you want to imitate me you really need to keep up.

Are you implying that parody and impersonation can be used interchangeably? Because nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not trying to assume your persona. I'm merely trying to show how out of touch it is with reality.

[Samoht]

When was Rampage suspended... for how long... what raid mobs spawned during their suspension.. what happened the day before their suspension...what are the repop timers on raid mobs?

GG

Just like almost every TMO suspension ever.

[Mezzmur]

Forsaken isn't TMO. Just ex-members of TMO. I'm still here guys :(

[Clark]

http://files2.coloribus.com/files/adsarchive/part_1245/12455855/file/a-lange-soehne-watches-spiders-web-small-19784.jpg

[Kayso]

So who else would like see to totally not TMO anymore take their punishment and then wait for demotion just to wreck class R out of spite?

Love the sentiment. The problem is that the people getting wrecked would be the ones who least deserved it. BDA and Taken would still get the same number of kills minus a 1 spawn delay.

Now if the lockout were only one spawn, BDA would likely never get another kill which would be glorious.

[Clark]

http://www.nist.gov/pml/electromagnetics/magnetics/images/torque800_1.png

http://images.iop.org/objects/phw/news/11/9/18/spins.jpg

[Alarti0001]

Are you implying that parody and impersonation can be used interchangeably? Because nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not trying to assume your persona. I'm merely trying to show how out of touch it is with reality.

I'm implying that parody is a form of impersonation. You implied that parody wasn't impersonation earlier.
You tell people to learn definitions but it seems you have a hard time with this too. Are you a parody of yourself?

[Alarti0001]

Just like almost every TMO suspension ever.

Sure demonstrate your point, or do you find this too difficult considering the lack of evidence to support you?

[Gorillas]

I think if the ruling went the other way, this could have been a potential result.

Agreed this is an issue. Until recently guilds have been easy to define. I have to agree with Alarti that the current system has all sorts of unintend consequences, such as having to redefine guild so it is more than just a tag (although I believe that was already a slight issue with the problems of 'alt guilds' in the past).

It's certainly an interesting discussion to read as someone completely outside to the guild scene.

Hello! New player here and forum junkie. As an outside opinion it looks like TMO had a problem with their leadership and took the opportunity to restructure. During this restructure they took advantage of an unclear section of the raid rules combined with a Sirken post to change raid classes. Now that newly restructured guild is playing the Tiny Tim with no Soup ploy to act like they're being discriminated against even tho there is evidence (via a forum screenshot) that they AT THE LEAST knew they were doing something questionable.

Why didn't this new guild just contact the staff for clarification? If the raid force was 95% TMO members, wouldn't they be familiar with the possible repercussions of gaming the system? Sounds like they went for forgiveness instead of permission.

Asking for clear cut cases of precedent like its a courtroom is scary. How would all of that information ever be catalogued? The staff would have to maintain an archive of people bitching with detailed information on everything from characters present to guild rosters.

IM A LEVEL 9 MIN/MAX OGRE WAR IN EC!
As a side note, if you're complaining that this suspension is going to make your guild any less ready for Velious after you've farmed Kunark for years....uhh lol

[Heebo]

http://files2.coloribus.com/files/adsarchive/part_1245/12455855/file/a-lange-soehne-watches-spiders-web-small-19784.jpg

Keep posting unrelated pictures, psycho

[Samoht]

I'm implying that parody is a form of impersonation. You implied that parody wasn't impersonation earlier.
You tell people to learn definitions but it seems you have a hard time with this too. Are you a parody of yourself?

Exhibit A) How can you insist words mean the same thing when your own definitions show no overlapping synonyms? They both may be forms of imitation, as you pointed out, but they clearly branch in two different directions.

parody .. also called spoof, send-up or lampoon

Impersonation .. synonyms: impression, imitation

Exhibit B) My Clooney is a much older and wiser Clooney.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=121&dateline=1310259671 vs http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=17978&dateline=1431013710

I rest my case.

[Samoht]

Sure demonstrate your point, or do you find this too difficult considering the lack of evidence to support you?

I'm not sorting through the TMO suspensions again. There are way too many of them.

[Ravager]

If anything, Samoht is repairing the damage done to Clooney's visage by Alarti.

[Misek84]

I'm not sorting through the TMO suspensions again. There are way too many of them.

You consider 5 (6 if u count forshaken one) as "wat to many" to go through?

Lol facts and reality mean noting when trolling 😝

[Alarti0001]

Exhibit A) How can you insist words mean the same thing when your own definitions show no overlapping synonyms? They both may be forms of imitation, as you pointed out, but they clearly branch in two different directions.





Exhibit B) My Clooney is a much older and wiser Clooney.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=121&dateline=1310259671 vs http://www.project1999.com/forums/image.php?u=17978&dateline=1431013710

I rest my case.

Your circular logic is strong. Your reading comprehension isn't. Go read those definitions again. You aren't making a parody of a subject?? you are making a parody of a person/identity. Impersonation is assuming an identity and imitating some traits. Parody just adds another layer. They are't divergent concepts at all.

parody (/ˈpærədi/; also called spoof, send-up or lampoon), in use, is a work created to imitate, make fun of, or comment on an original work, its subject, author, style, or some other target, by means of satiric or ironic imitation

im·i·tate

verb
take or follow as a model.
"his style was imitated by many other writers"
copy (a person's speech or mannerisms), especially for comic effect.

Poor kid.


I'm not sorting through the TMO suspensions again. There are way too many of them.

Logical Fallacy.

[Alarti0001]

You consider 5 (6 if u count forshaken one) as "wat to many" to go through?

Lol facts and reality mean noting when trolling 😝

He is afraid of the facts because they will disprove the points he tries to make.

[ismael]

http://i.imgur.com/I2SmGNd.gif

[Samoht]

He is afraid of the facts because they will disprove the points he tries to make.

At least I have more class than to copy/pasta definitions from Google and Wikipedia and pretend that gives me a full comprehension of what I'm posting.

[Destron]

http://i.imgur.com/I2SmGNd.gif

Not classic.

[Shinko]

that would be neat is detoxx was in tmo

[Alarti0001]

At least I have more class than to copy/pasta definitions from Google and Wikipedia and pretend that gives me a full comprehension of what I'm posting.

lmao the sour grapes on this kid.

[Samoht]

lmao the sour grapes on this kid.

Prove it.

[Champion_Standing]

Terrible thread

[Troubled]

15 pages of Alarti just when rnf starts getting interesting fml

[Naprox]

Can't say I'm surprised to see TMO members led into another hole by Sirken. No one has worked as hard to ensure Hoku-pal's success.

Too hard to say "don't do that" when talking about it before it even happens amiright Sirken? Rampage says ty for the setup.

So glad I don't play here any more. Being mislead by staff to set you guys up for a huge suspension as you're trying to reform and regroup. What you guys were trying to do was hard enough already.

Grats Rampage! The p99 staff approved guild!

Somebody sounds butt hurt.

[Champion_Standing]

15 pages of Alarti just when rnf starts getting interesting fml

[Aviann]

15 pages of Alarti just when rnf starts getting interesting fml

Lol yes

[quido]

I have very little love for blueTMO/Forsaken, but this seems like a bullshit double standard.

If 69 of 74 people were TMO, I'd like to know how many people who were tagged TMO didn't join Forsaken.

Try red, ya morans.

[Samoht]

If 69 of 74 people were TMO, I'd like to know how many people who were tagged TMO didn't join Forsaken.

Well, we've confirmed that eventually Dissidia changed, so that's one for the Foreskin column.

[Mezzmur]

I have very little love for blueTMO/Forsaken, but this seems like a bullshit double standard.

If 69 of 74 people were TMO, I'd like to know how many people who were tagged TMO didn't join Forsaken.

Try red, ya morans.

... found 173 active member(s)

Still 100 members of BlueTMO. All non-forsaken members!

[Jimjam]

I <3 you all, thanks for reading.

Thanks for posting (lover :p).

[Caridry]

Thanks for posting (lover :p).

I love everyone! :D :D :p

[Kushie]

Tibboh New Foreskin PR rep?

New recruits to the TMO spinteam!

[Juevento]

It's only a matter of time til you are posting slamdunk.gif and telling people they are madbadsad.

[Ravager]

It's only a matter of time til you are posting slamdunk.gif and telling people they are madbadsad.

confirmed madbadsadfat!!111

[falkun]

All of the discussions in TS and closed forums that encompassed how we were going to do R was basically like, well lets ask Sirken and see whats up. We (and mistakingly so) based our choice on the lack of punishment that we were aware of on IB/rampage. So from what I understand, we moved forward. AGAIN, I am not leadership, I am merely an applicant and friend of all.

You, unbrella, and brobafett(reddit) all have this similar argument. Yet here is Unbrella of TMO arguing with Hokushin of Rampage (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185264). In this thread, Sirken lays down the law:
That said, multiple staff members have reviewed this decision, and it has been decided that these punishments will still remain with any players that were IB tagged at the time of the incident, as well as any players that are currently tagged under IB.
Therefore, ANY TMO that join Forsaken are forbidden from killing a Class R target until their 30-days of not killing a Class C mob is up. This rule was not followed, and 69 TMO members did not wait 30 days. That was your leadership's fault, they KNOWINGLY disregarded a raid rule. This isn't lawyerquest, its an "obvious case of blatant circumvention (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1929063)".

You may think they did not know whats up, but I guaran-fucking-tee an ex-TMO raid leader (you attributed that title) knows the server's raid rules. I'm glad your leadership has provided you a path forward, but the wool is pulled over your eyes if you think they did not know the risk they were taking.

[Oleris]

2 weeks?!

http://i.imgur.com/6h2aS1z.gif

[Tann]

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m33v3aUpCE1qlzduwo1_500.gif

[Champion_Standing]

http://38.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lm9cbxpXZN1qdezf9o1_400.gif

[bktroost]

http://i.imgur.com/I2SmGNd.gif

Is this the new form of Arghwork?

[Alarti0001]

You, unbrella, and brobafett(reddit) all have this similar argument. Yet here is Unbrella of TMO arguing with Hokushin of Rampage[/URL]. In this thread, Sirken lays down the law:

Therefore, ANY TMO that join Forsaken are forbidden from killing a Class R target until their 30-days of not killing a Class C mob is up. This rule was not followed, and 69 TMO members did not wait 30 days. That was your leadership's fault, they KNOWINGLY disregarded a raid rule.



^^ In this post Falkun clearly demonstrates he can't wrap his mind around simple concepts.

Your proof isn't a proof. TMO was not suspended. This isn't a discussion about suspensions.

Try again.

[Pariad]

In b4 Nostalrius reroll.

[Hitpoint]

In b4 Nostalrius reroll.

This should happen.

[Samoht]

^^ In this post Falkun clearly demonstrates he can't wrap his mind around simple concepts.

Your proof isn't a proof. TMO was not suspended. This isn't a discussion about suspensions.

Try again.

^^ In this post Alarti clearly demonstrates he ha no idea what the fuck he's talking about.

Nobody said anything about TMO being suspended. The post was about how your class standing would carry on with your characters when all that changed was your guild name.

Still a moran.

[B4EQWASCOOL]

Isn't that one of the Cloonies? Yeah, you have high expectations...

[Faron]

foreskin fatties off to a great start

[Oleris]

I don't know how to communicate this, or even if it is possible. But the question of justice has concerned me greatly of late. And I say to anyone who may be reading, there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute.

[VANVEM]

^^ In this post Falkun clearly demonstrates he can't wrap his mind around simple concepts.

Your proof isn't a proof. TMO was not suspended. This isn't a discussion about suspensions.

Try again.
You sir, are an idiot, but at least i get to be entertained by it.

You and a few TMO sympathizers, are the only ones in this entire thread that doesn't seem to get it.

THIS is absolutely NOT a thread about suspensions!!, Because whether or not they were suspended does not seem to be the issue with the dev's decision.

If they had been, Then a comparison could be made and we could talk about IB/Rampage's punishment vs. TMO/Forsaken's.

But for today, THIS thread is about a class C guild Reforming and going class R, without waiting the required amount of time. THAT"S it!, nothing else, and no TMO rules lawyering and any other BS that you want to spit out will change it, now STFU and just go away, and the entire server will be better off.

[rubinoff]

http://i.imgur.com/I2SmGNd.gif

/thread

[YendorLootmonkey]

LOL Alarti knows damn well what the point is here... he is being purposely obtuse until you give up. Hasn't anyone learned yet?

[Ravager]

I miss the days when Alarti was suspended and spamming the login button for 6 months until he could run his mouth with the Clooney avatar again.

[Clark]

would defend his right to argue*

[B4EQWASCOOL]

Got some Clooney on Clooney fighting here. I pretend all of them are the same person. Then, they become entertaining.

[Anichek]

I'll play along, Chest. Uhhh Knix.

Me too, me too! Cecily.

[Samoht]

Got some Clooney on Clooney fighting here. I pretend all of them are the same person. Then, they become entertaining.

It's kinda like Garfield Minus Garfield (http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/). Only the opposite.

[Clark]

It's kinda like Garfield Minus Garfield (http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/). Only the opposite.

lol

[central scrutinizer]

lol

Hey I don't really understand what's going on in this thread, from your posts on various boards you seem like you usually have a level head, can you possibly please explain it for us bystanders?

[Aryan_Stormfront]

lolHey I don't really understand what's going on in this thread, from your posts on various boards you seem like you usually have a level head, can you possibly please explain it for us bystanders?

Shit's about to get goooooood!

[Alarti0001]

^^ In this post Alarti clearly demonstrates he ha no idea what the fuck he's talking about.

Nobody said anything about TMO being suspended. The post was about how your class standing would carry on with your characters when all that changed was your guild name.

Still a moran.

How idiotic can you be? Falkun clearly brought up a IB suspension not carrying as evidence about class switching. You seem incapable of following a line of thought. Falkun was arguing about suspensions. See the links in his post.
I even added color since you seem to have problems following.


That said, multiple staff members have reviewed this decision, and it has been decided that these punishments will still remain with any players that were IB tagged at the time of the incident, as well as any players that are currently tagged under IB.---Sirken

Therefore, ANY TMO that join Forsaken are forbidden from killing a Class R target until their 30-days of not killing a Class C mob is up. This rule was not followed, and 69 TMO members did not wait 30 days. That was your leadership's fault, they KNOWINGLY disregarded a raid rule. This isn't lawyerquest, its an "obvious case of blatant circumvention".---falkun

You may think they did not know whats up, but I guaran-fucking-tee an ex-TMO raid leader (you attributed that title) knows the server's raid rules. I'm glad your leadership has provided you a path forward, but the wool is pulled over your eyes if you think they did not know the risk they were taking.

nglorious Basterds is under Raid Suspension From the next Class C Nagefen and the next Class C Talendor & will be suspended from Veeshan's Peak starting at 12:01am EST Monday March 16th, and ending at 12:01am EST Friday March 20th for the following violations of the following raid policy:

Quote:
Stalling on Nagafen (3/1)
Stalling/Kiting Talendor, conceding the mob, then killing it anyway (3/8)
Volume of Offenses
Explanation:

First, i have told all the guilds that they will be allowed 1DA or ~18 seconds, after that, it would be considered a stall. all guilds were told that stalling would be watched for.

Second, you absolutely can not ever concede a mob, and then kill it anyway. i dont care what the reason is.

Third, Third, this is now the fifth time that IB has received a raid punishment as a guild.

[Nirgon]

Read first paragraph yikes

[Faron]

immersion off the charts

[Llodd]

Just posting that makes you look even more of a dick. But you alreadu knew that.

[Mead]

Of all people, do you think I'd be unaware of whether or not IB/Rampage actually got what was coming to them? While I've never considered Cucumbers much of a liar, if Rampage did serve any sort of 'punishment' it was so watered down it was immaterial. I think considering 'punishment server' is a gross misrepresentation.

A recurring theme with your guild is worrying about other peoples' problems and not focusing on your own. You might not be in the predicament you currently are if you worked on that. But then again, you wouldn't be TMO if you weren't a bunch of blithering idiots.

[Cecily]

And it wouldn't feel like a TMO thread without some passive aggressive advice from an anonymous dirty peasant.

[Samoht]

How idiotic can you be? Falkun clearly brought up a IB suspension not carrying as evidence about class switching. You seem incapable of following a line of thought. Falkun was arguing about suspensions. See the links in his post.

TMO and IB aren't even the same guild us moran. I have no idea what you're even talking about any more, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.

[Clark]

Just posting that makes you look even more of a dick. But you alreadu knew that.

[Clark]

A recurring theme with your guild is worrying about other peoples' problems and not focusing on your own. You might not be in the predicament you currently are if you worked on that. But then again, you wouldn't be TMO if you weren't a bunch of blithering idiots.

[Bboboo]

And it wouldn't feel like a TMO thread without some passive aggressive advice from an anonymous dirty peasant.

You guys should eq better

[Clark]

Don't worry Cecily the man who dresses like and thinks he is a woman irl (Caitlyn syndrome) serverhopped to red like the unloyal flipflopper he is. Will now be playing with the rest of low class Empire/TMO scum, and Houndsdress/Fangaymo (Susvain2BallsGone).

[Clark]

All truth that other people were afraid to say Mr. Susvain2BallsGone.

Keep wearing dresses irl.

[Clark]

TMO was a shitty led guild. Had a ton of potential to do well, but trolls were allowed to stay in. Then the majority of leadership had beyond poor social skills, didn't defend it's members, and grasped onto power while not following through with responsibilities. Idk why you think that is any ammo at me I was already going to post that screenshot anyway I printscreened it right after I took it. #truth

[Clark]

Not much room to think Forsaken will be much better. All the weight will fall on Detoxx once again because he is the only person who can raid lead in that guild. You can't just have one raid leader; what about when he is not at raids?

Dottedup is a cool dude, but loses his temper way too easily and doesn't have a very good attitude. Same with Gunnter. He is a cool dude, but has a horrible temper.

Swage and Solunar are the best officers, but they don't raid lead. They also don't stick up for their membership or friends. Solunar has burned out multiple times and was already saying he is sinking 12hr days in.

Yeaboy is cool, but he doesn't really know anyone within the roster very well. Seems to have kind of a big ego for only 1 level 60, and not being on the server long. Pretty sure he doesn't raid lead?

Carrina is cool, but I don't think he can raid lead?

You guys said you gave Portsche officer access, but he isn't an officer. Jeremy 2.0 all over again a douche with zero social skills allowed to influence officer forums.

Recipe for disaster. Only thing good you guys did was got rid of trolls I white knighted against (Quickfingers, Alarti, Yibz, Houndsdress, Cecily). Quickfingers, Alarti, Yibz didn't even want to join Forsaken anyway because they play red. You guys are gonna have a rough time, and little to no chance to surpass Rampage. They are much more disciplined, way more raid leaders, they don't let their members treat each other like shit, and they are just nicer people overall.

[rebeccablack]

http://i.imgur.com/cpFPSJD.jpg

when will the madness end

[Clark]

Mad because I am active on forums, and keep well informed on server history 2009-current day? Not many people on this time of the day Rebecca-man with a womans forum handle.

[Susvain2]

cringing

[Clark]

cringing

We've already talked about how you overuse this adjective. Especially when you wear dresses irl, like men, and use heroin.

[Tiggles]

reported for rl attacks


http://i.imgur.com/RTf29RS.png

[Clark]

It isn't attacks if it's true and you've stated it multiple times..

[Clark]

Once again all you guys are doing is helping me PR against TMO/Forsaken scum. That posts shows the truths and exposure into how crappy a guild it was.

[Tiggles]

Once again all you guys are doing is helping me PR against TMO/Forsaken scum. That posts shows the truths and exposure into how crappy a guild it was.

Wait, your not in forsaken?

[Clark]

Hell no don't want to join people who don't stand up for their members, treat people like dirt, support trolling like you guys do, and putting a lot of people with absolutely poor social skills into leadership (Gunnter, Dottedup, Yeaboy, , and Portsche the guildbank thief).

Even the good officers don't stand up for their members.

They also only have 1 raid leader Detoxx. Recipe for disaster.

[Visual]

I remember exping in lower guk when I first ran into this kid. I said hello and he began telling me how Forceful Entry was lead by a group of inconsiderate a-holes, poisoning the member base and running a slave ship to line their own pockets.

I was like cool nice to meet you too.

[Clark]

Wait, your not in forsaken?

you're*

[Cecily]

Clark, I'm sorry for occasionally teasing you about your posts.

[Tiggles]

Hell no don't want to join people who don't stand up for their members, treat people like dirt, support trolling like you guys do, and putting a lot of people with absolutely poor social skills into leadership (Gunnter, Dottedup, Yeaboy, , and Portsche the guildbank thief).

Even the good officers don't stand up for their members.

They also only have 1 raid leader Detoxx. Recipe for disaster.

http://www.imgur.com/2nTUJ4O.png

[Clark]

Clark, I'm sorry for occasionally teasing you about your posts.

Alrighty I forgive ya. We go way back.

[Tiggles]

Alrighty I forgive ya. We go way back.

Clark I'm also sorry for teasing you sometimes.

Pals?

[Clark]

Poor Tiggles he comes back and TMO falls apart. Forced to troll people on forums. Everything I've said was true we had no leadership stand up to any of the trolls. They just allowed you guys to post and say whatever you wanted so I got sick of you saying shit.

Also who would trust someone who screenshots personal guild forums? Lol low class.

[Clark]

Clark I'm also sorry for teasing you sometimes.

Pals?

I've tried to squash beef with you multiple times, and am still willing. I genuinely enjoyed and watched your streaming man. Was very entertaining. :cool:

[DetroitVelvetSmooth]

tmo - like a fucking mexican soap opera but tons of white trash lol

[Clark]

tmo - like a fucking mexican soap opera but tons of white trash lol

lol

[Tiggles]

I've tried to squash beef with you multiple times, and am still willing. I genuinely enjoyed and watched your streaming man. Was very entertaining. :cool:

What guild ya joining come velious?

[Clark]

Lol just noticed your signature that is a good one. :D

Not sure I have been focusing on irl.

[Alarti0001]

TMO and IB aren't even the same guild us moran. I have no idea what you're even talking about any more, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.

Yep you are lost. It's okay if you want to keep up you should try to figure out the point Falkun was trying to make first. This seems to be a recurring problem with you, can't follow the course of the discussion.

[Alarti0001]

Not much room to think Forsaken will be much better. All the weight will fall on Detoxx once again because he is the only person who can raid lead in that guild. You can't just have one raid leader; what about when he is not at raids?

Dottedup is a cool dude, but loses his temper way too easily and doesn't have a very good attitude. Same with Gunnter. He is a cool dude, but has a horrible temper.

Swage and Solunar are the best officers, but they don't raid lead. They also don't stick up for their membership or friends. Solunar has burned out multiple times and was already saying he is sinking 12hr days in.

Yeaboy is cool, but he doesn't really know anyone within the roster very well. Seems to have kind of a big ego for only 1 level 60, and not being on the server long. Pretty sure he doesn't raid lead?

Carrina is cool, but I don't think he can raid lead?

You guys said you gave Portsche officer access, but he isn't an officer. Jeremy 2.0 all over again a douche with zero social skills allowed to influence officer forums.

Recipe for disaster. Only thing good you guys did was got rid of trolls I white knighted against (Quickfingers, Alarti, Yibz, Houndsdress, Cecily). Quickfingers, Alarti, Yibz didn't even want to join Forsaken anyway because they play red. You guys are gonna have a rough time, and little to no chance to surpass Rampage. They are much more disciplined, way more raid leaders, they don't let their members treat each other like shit, and they are just nicer people overall.

I nominate Marksman as officer of Forsaken. Please make this happen for the luls it will create

[Samoht]

Yep you are lost. It's okay if you want to keep up you should try to figure out the point Falkun was trying to make first. This seems to be a recurring problem with you, can't follow the course of the discussion.

It's hard to follow the nonsense you've been spewing. He didn't mention anything about a TMO suspension, but somehow that's what you zeroed in on in your response.

Now, if you want to talk about how people cannot follow the course of the discussion, let's talk about how members of TMO/Foreskin have been trying to compare the IB/Rampage suspension to the TMO/Foreskin suspension before he did, and yet you completely ignored their comparisons.

It's clear that you're only responding to people unaffiliated with TMO/Foreskin, and that in your selective responses, you're completely ignoring how TMO/Foreskin members have been trying to leverage the same evidence in their justifications for their douchebaggery.

ITT: douchebags defend douchebags.

[Seltius]

I can accept and even respect loyalty to your guild and friends Clark but man you really need help. When you start randomly threatening harm to people outside of game that's when it becomes serious. With all the nutcases now days that think its acceptable to act out and harm others over perceived slights if your not careful that could land you in legal trouble or worse. Please man if you do nothing else seek support and help whether it is from family, friends or professionals. I know forums like RNF and games like EQ, etc. promote anonymity but some of your raging seems to be dangerous for you and others. It goes beyond simple frustration or trolling. Get out enjoy the sunshine, read a book, do anything you want to but whatever you decide to do take a break from the game and forums. The new perspective afterwards might help.

[Heebo]

Sum 1 gon get maced

[Alarti0001]

It's hard to follow the nonsense you've been spewing. He didn't mention anything about a TMO suspension, but somehow that's what you zeroed in on in your response.


WOW...that is the point kiddo. He is trying to compare 2 unlike situations in his post. An IB suspension transferring or not transferring to a new guild has no relevance to an not suspended TMO having some of its members form a new guild. Stop embarrassing yourself.


Now, if you want to talk about how people cannot follow the course of the discussion, let's talk about how members of TMO/Foreskin have been trying to compare the IB/Rampage suspension to the TMO/Foreskin suspension before he did, and yet you completely ignored their comparisons.


I don't care if other Forsaken or TMO players can't follow the discussion. Is this the part where you realize your argument failed so you throw around fallacy?

What forsaken people are posting here? Should I argue with people who aren't posting here?


It's clear that you're only responding to people unaffiliated with TMO/Foreskin, and that in your selective responses, you're completely ignoring how TMO/Foreskin members have been trying to leverage the same evidence in their justifications for their douchebaggery.



What Forsaken people are posting arguments here? A flawed argument is flawed no matter who posts it. Try to control your bias.

[Samoht]

What forsaken people are posting here? Should I argue with people who aren't posting here?

What Forsaken people are posting arguments here?

You are clearly insane. This thread is up to 23 pages and full of TMO/Foreskin people looking to justify their actions using plausible deniability. You're going to ignore that fact because it's inconvenient to you, but it doesn't change the truth. If you're going to be too lazy to look back through the rest of the thread, that's your prerogative, but to pretend it never happened because you can't be bothered? Do you think everybody else in the world besides you is stupid? Take a look in the mirror. They say ignorance is bliss, tell me, is that true? Can you really choose to be as ignorant as you are just to be able to argue that things never happened?

No, it's not my job to reread the thread for you. If you want to be a big boy and have any substantial presence in this conversation, you will reread it yourself.

[Alarti0001]

You are clearly insane. This thread is up to 23 pages and full of TMO/Foreskin people looking to justify their actions using plausible deniability. You're going to ignore that fact because it's inconvenient to you, but it doesn't change the truth. If you're going to be too lazy to look back through the rest of the thread, that's your prerogative, but to pretend it never happened because you can't be bothered? Do you think everybody else in the world besides you is stupid? Take a look in the mirror. They say ignorance is bliss, tell me, is that true? Can you really choose to be as ignorant as you are just to be able to argue that things never happened?

No, it's not my job to reread the thread for you. If you want to be a big boy and have any substantial presence in this conversation, you will reread it yourself.

If you are trying to prove something you must provide evidence. What forsaken people are posting arguments in here. It's funny how the amount of insults you spew correlate directly with how badly you are failing at your argument.

When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. An argument from ignorance occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proved false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proved true.[1][2] This has the effect of shifting the burden of proof to the person criticizing the proposition, but is not valid reasoning.[3]

[ObooReturns]

Im new to the forums, but it took me less than 10 pages to learn to skip any post with a clooney avatar

[Susvain2]

hey Clark im sorry for teasing you, we kewl?

[Samoht]

You're not feigning ignorance on this just because that's what's convenient to you. I'm not rereading this thread for some lazy asshole on the Internet that's derailing threads by chasing tangents about irrelevant off-topic information. Start addressing the substance. And I believe the word you're looking for is onus. Stop saying "burden of proof" you fucking pleb.

[Susvain2]

Lol just noticed your signature that is a good one. :D

Not sure I have been focusing on irl.

Pm from Clark

Also been courting this cute little petite blonde at work, but not going hard in the paint on that until a few more weeks. Laying the ground work she has been flirting a lot though. We were talking about the Cavs week ago and she said "I thought about you last night." So she is definitely interested.

workinon RL yowl

[Uggme]

When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim. An argument from ignorance occurs when either a proposition is assumed to be true because it has not yet been proved false or a proposition is assumed to be false because it has not yet been proved true.[1][2] This has the effect of shifting the burden of proof to the person criticizing the proposition, but is not valid reasoning.[3]

Good fucking god, are you seriously trying to assign debate style rules to RnF? I think Sam might be right. You ARE insane.

All you're doing here is dodging. Man up, and speak to the issue at hand. Or perhaps, as we've all seen numerous times before, your reading comprehension skills are so poor you don't even know what's going on and simply can't formulate a coherent reaponse.

I'm betting its the latter.

[Alarti0001]

You're not feigning ignorance on this just because that's what's convenient to you. I'm not rereading this thread for some lazy asshole on the Internet that's derailing threads by chasing tangents about irrelevant off-topic information. Start addressing the substance. And I believe the word you're looking for is onus. Stop saying "burden of proof" you fucking pleb.

Should be clear I copy/pasted.

You should really go back and look through the thread I did a few pages and didn't see any Forsaken people posting. Maybe you are doing more than feigning ignorance.

[Alarti0001]

Good fucking god, are you seriously trying to assign debate style rules to RnF? I think Sam might be right. You ARE insane.

All you're doing here is dodging. Man up, and speak to the issue at hand. Or perhaps, as we've all seen numerous times before, your reading comprehension skills are so poor you don't even know what's going on and simply can't formulate a coherent reaponse.

I'm betting its the latter.

It's logical rules. They exist in any medium if you want to debate an issue with any kind of rational ability. I already spoke to the issue at hand. Maybe you should read it and come up with a coherent reaponse.

[Uggme]

Alarti doing his best to follow the tutelage of ole' Patches O'Houlihan

“Remember the 5 D's of dodgeball: Dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge.”

Cowardly

[Samoht]

It's logical rules. They exist in any medium if you want to debate an issue with any kind of rational ability. I already spoke to the issue at hand. Maybe you should read it and come up with a coherent reaponse.

And where's the logic in reading a thread starting on page 16? Do you really think that just because you didn't read the other 15 pages you can deny they exist? I think that would be a requirement before you could logically try to argue with someone about it, but that didn't stop you, did it?

[Alarti0001]

Alarti doing his best to follow the tutelage of ole' Patches O'Houlihan

“Remember the 5 D's of dodgeball: Dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge.”

Cowardly

Please tell me what I'm dodging?


And where's the logic in reading a thread starting on page 16? Do you really think that just because you didn't read the other 15 pages you can deny they exist? I think that would be a requirement before you could logically try to argue with someone about it, but that didn't stop you, did it?

Do you really think by saying something exists then it does? You must be very religious too.

Thread is only 12 pages btw I looked through about 5 and didn't find Forsaken members... but then again I have no interest in proving your point for you. My position is valid unless you can prove it otherwise. You want me to debate forsaken members opinions relating to the IB suspension and how it justifies the Forsaken choice. I just want you to show me a Forsaken member posting that or I can't debate it.

I said in an earlier post that a flawed argument is flawed no matter who posts it. It's obvious I don't think the issues are related...you are just more interested in bias.

[Tiggles]

I for one enjoy the cloonies fighting because they pad my thread count.

[Ravager]

I for one enjoy the cloonies fighting because they pad my thread count.

Shut up. You're getting in the way.

[Samoht]

My position is valid

You have zero validity because you're arguing a tangent. Again. It's what you do. You find what you perceive to be a weakness and zero in on it until a thread is completely derailed. Why don't you tell me about how many pages there are in the thread on your screen again? Because that's what matters here, right?

You have no substance to your discussion, so you have to focus on the little battles. Since you're the one who brought up the debate rules, I'm going to have to say you'd suck at debating.

They don't allow tangents.

Your specialty appears to be filibuster.

[Alarti0001]

You have zero validity because you're arguing a tangent. Again. It's what you do. You find what you perceive to be a weakness and zero in on it until a thread is completely derailed. Why don't you tell me about how many pages there are in the thread on your screen again? Because that's what matters here, right?

You have no substance to your discussion, so you have to focus on the little battles. Since you're the one who brought up the debate rules, I'm going to have to say you'd suck at debating.

They don't allow tangents.

Your specialty appears to be filibuster.

Um you brought up the tangent I just went with you. You distracted from the argument by trying to affirm bias. It's not my fault that you couldn't affirm your position. I don't even have to debate you... you debate yourself. MPD?

You should probably take a break you are starting to confuse yourself. Of course if not I'm more than willing to be entertained by your idiocy.

[Samoht]

If it's entertaining for you to continue to subject yourself to ridicule, be my guest. You're an easy target lately. I almost feel bad for making fun of a person with such obvious social issues. Almost.

[Alarti0001]

If it's entertaining for you to continue to subject yourself to ridicule, be my guest. You're an easy target lately. I almost feel bad for making fun of a person with such obvious social issues. Almost.

^^^ When you are so lost... you can only try to project your issues onto others.

Speaking of obvious social issues. Why so anon?

[Samoht]

^^^ When you are so lost... you can only try to project your issues onto others.

Speaking of obvious social issues. Why so anon?

^^^ When you are in such denial that you try to change the subject in the same thread that calls you out for always trying to change the subject.

You should give up, mang. It's clear that you're on the ropes, and you might still be swinging, but all you're hitting is air.

[Alarti0001]

^^^ When you are in such denial that you try to change the subject in the same thread that calls you out for always trying to change the subject.

You should give up, mang. It's clear that you're on the ropes, and you might still be swinging, but all you're hitting is air.

Wow What subject am I changing? If I'm changing subject please direct me to what you want answered? It seems you won't do that? Are you having Marksman level delusions?

[Uggme]

^^^ When you are in such denial that you try to change the subject in the same thread that calls you out for always trying to change the subject.

You should give up, mang. It's clear that you're on the ropes, and you might still be swinging, but all you're hitting is air.

He could own up to it instead, though I find that highly unlikely.

[Samoht]

Wow What subject am I changing? If I'm changing subject please direct me to what you want answered? It seems you won't do that? Are you having Marksman level delusions?

Is your attention span so short that you cannot remember the contents of your previous? I've already quoted it once. Quit being lazy and look it up yourself you fucking tool.

[Alarti0001]

Is your attention span so short that you cannot remember the contents of your previous? I've already quoted it once. Quit being lazy and look it up yourself you fucking tool.

Says the guy too lazy to prove his points... You have posted multiple times about different arguments and none of them rational. Maybe its time you find a point or pick one path instead of drifting so much.

[Samoht]

Says the guy too lazy to prove his points... You have posted multiple times about different arguments and none of them rational. Maybe its time you find a point or pick one path instead of drifting so much.

My point is that you're a tool, and you do a pretty good job of proving that for me.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Alarti,

1) In your esteemed* opinion, can a group of players go from Class C to Class R en masse without waiting for the 30-day cooldown period by merely changing their guild and therefore escaping (purposely or not) any restrictions, lockouts, sanctions, suspensions, or other conditions applied to their original guild? Yes or no.

If yes, how does one ensure players aren't switching guilds en masse to avoid any sort of restrictions, lockouts, sanctions, suspensions, or other conditions applied to the original guild?

If no, what the fuck have you been arguing about for the last 15 pages?

* lol

[Alarti0001]

My point is that you're a tool, and you do a pretty good job of proving that for me.

LOL OUCH you got me! If only your arguments were so clear and concise as this you wouldn't look like such a fool!

Let me know if you have a cogent argument about the Forsaken issue.

Better luck next time kid.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti,

1) In your esteemed* opinion, can a group of players go from Class C to Class R en masse without waiting for the 30-day cooldown period by merely changing their guild and therefore escaping (purposely or not) any restrictions, lockouts, sanctions, suspensions, or other conditions applied to their original guild? Yes or no.

If yes, how does one ensure players aren't switching guilds en masse to avoid any sort of restrictions, lockouts, sanctions, suspensions, or other conditions applied to the original guild?

If no, what the fuck have you been arguing about for the last 15 pages?

* lol

1) In my opinion, this 1 statement is too broad. I'm sure you realize that though and are just trying to support your agenda.

Assuming we are following the current raid rules (which I find idiotic to begin with) I would fix that statement by saying you can't skirt punishments assigned to a group of people for bad behavior and you can't skip lockouts. However if you are reforming, or rebranding or splitting off from a guild, you should be allowed to switch classes to R as long as you don't kill a class C mob.

The problem with some people in this forum is they try to label Forsaken as just new TMO. That isn't the case. Forsaken does consist of many ex TMO players... but many players stayed in TMO also or rerolled red... or apped to other guilds. This is a true guild split which created an entirely new entity. New DKP, Leaders, Rules, Memberbase, guild bank, etc etc.

It is convenient for Class R to try to label them as TMO because it supports the agenda of all things TMO are evil(1) and the agenda of maximizing their (being current Class R members)loot potential(2).