Players will always compete for raid mobs; the point of contention is the rules

[Splorf22]

So within 15 minutes of reading the 'VP trains' thread I wanted to stab a pencil in my eye. What is driving me fucking crazy about all these threads is the unceasing barrage of "you don't want to compete" straw men. It is a plague of Biblical proportions. And there is no question that they are straw men. For example, FE in the thread in question wants to end training in VP, because, you know, it's not classic (not to mention stupid). Would prohibiting trains reduce the competition in VP? Not at all. In fact by any reasonable measure competition would increase because more people would show up to play. And they would race for FTE in exactly the same way as they do in other zones.

Suppose for example that Rogean began giving out two tokens per week to guilds to spawn whichever bosses they want. This idea has been proposed before, and the usual troglodyte response is "YOU CAREBEAR YOU WANT RAID MOBS HANDED TO YOU HAHAHA WHAT A LOSER". Of course, a deeper glance reveals intense competition. The smaller you can make your guild to successfully kill raid targets, the more pixels per person you'll get. What has changed is the form of the competition: rather than 24/7 zergs the goal is a tight crew that can kill with very small numbers.

The current form of said competition is: spend on average 48 hours mashing the track button, batphone everyone in the middle of the night, train the zone around (and the other raid if you can get away with it), and zerg down the boss because if we try to do anything that involves strategy we'll be too slow. The same 'it's competition' logic used by its defenders would apply to two retards wrestling in a pile of cow dung. Obviously it's competition, but it's also dumb competition.

TL;DR: There will be competition regardless of what rules are selected, so lets select rules that aren't fucking retarded

The other point that is driving me nuts is the staff's relative indifference to the whole business. We were promised simultaneous repops almost a YEAR ago. I know Rogean has a job that sucks up his time. I know Nilbog looks at this as the beta server and mostly cares about replicating classic Everquest. I know Sirken just wants to see a bunch of people fight over virtual pixels for some reason. So get another programmer. This whole community is a bunch of nerds. There will be someone willing to put in 5 hours a week to implement some new ideas for the raid scene. There are tons of easy ones to try: enable PVP while the bosses are up. Simultaneous repops. Tokens. Automatic train detection code. None of those are some sort of carebear 'deposit the pixels into my bank account every Friday' kind of thing. They are just better forms of competition than we have now.

I'm guessing over 50% of your population has a raid-level toon or close to it. The vast majority of the players on this server think the raid scene sucks; the only people defending it are a relative few who benefit from the rules, not because of any sort of skill or knowledge, but because they are willing to play more and willing to step on other people more. And most infuriatingly, we have a server where the compass is removed because its not classic, but we have unclassic variance and Rogean specifically saying that they allow trains in VP because it saves them time.

TL;DR: FFS admit that you have a problem, and get a new programmer to fix it

Alright, I'm done. in b4 'u mad bro' and 'you don't want to compete' and all of the other idiocies that so many trolls here are so impressed by.

[Sarius]

Will not happen unfortunately as long as Sirken is at the helm. No offense to him whatsoever.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I blame Tupac

[kylok]

The raid scene is the way it is, like the sky is blue. For now, as far as we know, nothing is going to change that. The way I see it you non TMO people have two options

A) Beat TMO at their own game
B) Cry in a corner

Complaining on the forums gets you nowhere.

[Langrisser]

i blame LAPD officer David Mack, former bank robber and now released millionaire and blood gang member.

also, ill never see VP so i want it to be miserable for those that do. that is your cross to bear for uberness. fuck u neckbeardians.

[Aaron]

I agree with everything you said. But it's gonna devolve pretty quickly into a thread we've already seen hundreds of times. Intelligent discussion of problems is frowned upon here.

[Nlaar]

There will be competition regardless of what rules are selected, so lets select rules that aren't fucking retarded

yup.

And most infuriatingly, we have a server where the compass is removed because its not classic, but we have unclassic variance and Rogean specifically saying that they allow trains in VP because it saves them time.

and yup.

[Galvatar]

The raid scene is the way it is, like the sky is blue. For now, as far as we know, nothing is going to change that. The way I see it you non TMO people have two options

A) Beat TMO at their own game
B) Cry in a corner

Complaining on the forums gets you nowhere.

Nobody is "crying", or "mad". I saw a well thought out, well written post above yours. You responded with the typical troll counter.

That's what happened there.

[Tiggles]

I didn't read any of this thread but any rule change may stop me as a TMO member from getting as much loot for my alts I will veto it.

[kylok]

I wasn't saying anyone was mad or crying. Regardless of any arguments the options are beat TMO at their own game or be beaten by TMO. Not making a troll post just pointing out the reality of this situation.

[Volibear]

People made a server with these rules. It is called the sleeper server and failed horribly. Believe it or not TMO loses mobs all the time when guilds put the effort into it.

[Sarius]

I think the only rule change that is necessay is to somehow disallow camping within X vicinity of raid mob spawn points. This will certainly help more guilds get more targets

[finalgrunt]

Sorry to tell you this, but you're wasting your time.

TMO won't share with the server, staff doesn't mind part of their player base going full retard with their project.

Try playing other games, it's refreshing ;)

[Splorf22]

People made a server with these rules. It is called the sleeper server and failed horribly. Believe it or not TMO loses mobs all the time when guilds put the effort into it.

Nice, now we have a great example of the logical fallacies that I have been complaining about.

I don't think you even read my post.

Sorry to tell you this, but you're wasting your time.

TMO won't share with the server, staff doesn't mind part of their player base going full retard with their project.

Try playing other games, it's refreshing

I don't think you read my post either.

[Volibear]

Nice, now we have a great example of the logical fallacies that I have been complaining about.

I don't think you even read my post.



I don't think you read my post either.

My point is they are other servers with alternate rule sets and they don't work. People want a classic server and got it. Nothing needs to be changed.

[Tiggles]

Nice, now we have a great example of the logical fallacies that I have been complaining about.

I don't think you even read my post.



I don't think you read my post either.

If TMO didn't have a monopoly on VP how would purchased all your gear like you do now?

[carli]

Splorf don't be trolled by them.

Your post makes a lot of sense and I really like some of those suggestions. Hopefully some of the more literate players agree and maybe some project managers will not turn a blind eye to the raid scene anymore. I can only imagine how difficult it must be to be for smaller guilds who want to kill some raid mobs with skill and tactics but by the time you set something up .. everything has been zerged down in 60 seconds ><

[Splorf22]

My point is they are other servers with alternate rule sets and they don't work. People want a classic server and got it. Nothing needs to be changed.

Are you seriously claiming the failure of The Sleeper was a result of their raid policies and had nothing to do with the fact the used the same (horribly buggy) code base that P1999 started from over 5 years ago and has been gradually improving?

If TMO didn't have a monopoly on VP how would purchased all your gear like you do now?

If the raid scene rules weren't so fucking retarded, I might actually participate!

In any case both of you are completely missing the point of my post. I don't care who gets the pixels. This isn't an anti-TMO post. My point is that the the way players compete for raid mobs on this server is fucking retarded, and I would like it changed to something that has more to do with skill and less to do with tracking, training, and being on call 24/7.

[Galvatar]

If TMO didn't have a monopoly on VP how would purchased all your gear like you do now?

Maybe if you didn't cockblock the rest of the server on VP keys he'd be able to bring some pals and get it himself.

[Thulack]

My point is they are other servers with alternate rule sets and they don't work. People want a classic server and got it. Nothing needs to be changed.

What part about variance is classic again?

[Detoxx]

technically, mobs had a 2-6 hour variance on live too....

[Kagatob]

Poopsocking = classic.

Variance and FTE are both not classic. :)

[A1551]

Well said, Loraen

[Enygma]

Suppose for example that Rogean began giving out two tokens per week to guilds to spawn whichever bosses they want. This idea has been proposed before, and the usual troglodyte response is "YOU CAREBEAR YOU WANT RAID MOBS HANDED TO YOU HAHAHA WHAT A LOSER".


Sakuragi - if you have a problem like this... there is a server for people like you... it's called the SLeeper - please contact Toop to enjoy his dying game.

Thanks,

[Langrisser]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap4jRRK75dA

[kylok]

After reading the OP several times, this is what I see....

There's an irreconcilable difference on raid scene philosophy between OP and the general consensus of the staff. Everyone's entitled to their opinion but at the end of the day the staff has the last word. No one said this was fair, balanced, just, etc. This isn't a democracy, your vote does not count. It's good to see that people can form clear, concise thoughts but ultimately OP's point is moot.

I feel your pain, having raided on this server outside of TMO/IB. Perhaps under different circumstances this argument would be taken more seriously by the community and staff. That being said, I enjoy the server just the way it is and would not change a thing.

[Sarius]

I think the only rule change that is necessay is to somehow disallow camping within X vicinity of raid mob spawn points. This will certainly help more guilds get more targets

Hate to quote myself, but nobody acknowledged this. Would this help with the current raid scene?

[Tasslehofp99]

Good post Loraen, It's unfortunate we can't seem to get a discussion rolling regarding this topic without trolls shitting up the threads.

[quido]

I am so glad that morans can't poopsock Phara Dar.

[kylok]

A difference of opinion is hardly a troll =/

[Splorf22]

Sakuragi - if you have a problem like this... there is a server for people like you... it's called the SLeeper - please contact Toop to enjoy his dying game.

Thanks,

Wait. You just took as your position the straw man position I assigned to the trolls and then refuted two sentences later. That's just . . . wow.

After reading the OP several times, this is what I see....

I really thought my post was clear, but people just aren't getting it. Let me try again. One time when I was in college I ended up playing pickup with several members of the Illinois Men's varsity team. Needless to say, they were a lot better than I was. One time I ended up switched on to one of them, and he just dribbled at the top of the key until his teammate could come back to check him, presumably because he thought zipping by me for a two handed dunk would be cruel and abusive. Did I demand to change the rules of basketball? Of course not. Because basketball is just fun.

The point I am trying to make is that I don't care about winning and losing nearly as much as having fun. Right now, participation in the raid scene is not fun, period. Tracking is not fun, period. Having to get up at 4AM to kill a dragon is not fun, period. If the raid scene is changed (lets say simultaneous repops) and TMO still cleans up, then more power to them. I can still go for a raid target without all the nonsense and have fun doing it.

[Tasslehofp99]

A difference of opinion is hardly a troll =/

Nope, but...

I didn't read any of this thread but any rule change may stop me as a TMO member from getting as much loot for my alts I will veto it.



Is a troll post meant to derail a serious thread which warrants discussion as seen by the 25+ pages in the other thread that grew like wildfire throughout last night, though.

[kylok]

Message received! Here's my point - if you're not having fun playing the game why are you playing it? The rules are the rules, changing the rules means changing the game.

edit: tassle if you don't have tiggles on ignore by now it's no ones fault but yours.

[Sarius]

Wait. You just took as your position the straw man position I assigned to the trolls and then refuted two sentences later. That's just . . . wow.



I really thought my post was clear, but people just aren't getting it. Let me try again. One time when I was in college I ended up playing pickup with several members of the Illinois Men's varsity team. Needless to say, they were a lot better than I was. One time I ended up switched on to one of them, and he just dribbled at the top of the key until his teammate could come back to check him, presumably because he thought zipping by me for a two handed dunk would be cruel and abusive. Did I demand to change the rules of basketball? Of course not. Because basketball is just fun.

The point I am trying to make is that I don't care about winning and losing nearly as much as having fun. Right now, participation in the raid scene is not fun, period. Tracking is not fun, period. Having to get up at 4AM to kill a dragon is not fun, period. If the raid scene is changed (lets say simultaneous repops) and TMO still cleans up, then more power to them. I can still go for a raid target without all the nonsense and have fun doing it.

What happens every time there is a full server repop? TMO gets 80%+ of the mobs while BDA and FE get a few.

How will simultaneous repops fix this?

[radditsu]

Message received! Here's my point - if you're not having fun playing the game why are you playing it? The rules are the rules, changing the rules means changing the game.

The rules are not classic in current form. Classic was fun.

[kylok]

Classic is good, I like classic. If I recall correctly people had issues with that raid scene when it was classic.

[Tasslehofp99]

Message received! Here's my point - if you're not having fun playing the game why are you playing it? The rules are the rules, changing the rules means changing the game.

edit: tassle if you don't have tiggles on ignore by now it's no ones fault but yours.

Outlawing training in VP would make the game more close to what was intended. I don't want to change any ground breaking rules. My thing is this: People have justified GM sanctioned training being allowed in VP because it was a "Non-CSR" zone on live. "Non-CSR" did not mean training was allowed on live, and VP was not the only zone with this tag during this era on EQlive. Plane of Hate/Fear/Sky were also labeled as such, so if this reason is given to justify training in VP, then why not use it to allow training in those zones as well?


For those of us who know how live went, we know training was never allowed. The rules on p99 weren't derived from any policies put into place by Live EQ CSR staff, but fabricated to fit the conditions of the raiding scene on p99. I just don't see why training is allowed, since it wasn't on live. That's just me though, and about 150 other people so far who have voted on my poll. I think its time to reconsider these rules and maybe come up with a new rule set which better fosters competition instead of hindering it like the current rules.

[kenzar]

Outlawing training in VP would make the game more close to what was intended. I don't want to change any ground breaking rules. My thing is this: People have justified GM sanctioned training being allowed in VP because it was a "Non-CSR" zone on live. "Non-CSR" did not mean training was allowed on live, and VP was not the only zone with this tag during this era on EQlive. Plane of Hate/Fear/Sky were also labeled as such, so if this reason is given to justify training in VP, then why not use it to allow training in those zones as well?


Rogean already explained to you that this is not the reason VP is a train-friendly zone.

How many times do I have to tell you that our No CSR policy is NOT related to live? Is there some sort of brain block going on here?

[Splorf22]

What happens every time there is a full server repop? TMO gets 80%+ of the mobs while BDA and FE get a few.

How will simultaneous repops fix this?

This thread is a monument to how everyone projects every post about the raid scene into some sort of pro/anti TMO agenda, even when the original post went into great length about how I hate that. I am not for or against TMO. There are guys in TMO that I like (even you Jeremy!) and guys that I can't stand. I would like to see the raid scene changed not because the rules aren't fair (they are, unless Sirken is feeding tiggles mob spawn times under the table) or because one guild gets all the mobs (oh well) but because THE RULES AREN'T FUN.

[Tasslehofp99]

Outlawing training in VP would make the game more close to what was intended. I don't want to change any ground breaking rules. My thing is this: People have justified GM sanctioned training being allowed in VP because it was a "Non-CSR" zone on live. "Non-CSR" did not mean training was allowed on live, and VP was not the only zone with this tag during this era on EQlive. Plane of Hate/Fear/Sky were also labeled as such, so if this reason is given to justify training in VP, then why not use it to allow training in those zones as well?


For those of us who know how live went, we know training was never allowed. The rules on p99 weren't derived from any policies put into place by Live EQ CSR staff, but fabricated to fit the conditions of the raiding scene on p99. I just don't see why training is allowed, since it wasn't on live. That's just me though, and about 150 other people so far who have voted on my poll. I think its time to reconsider these rules and maybe come up with a new rule set which better fosters competition instead of hindering it like the current rules.

Rogean already explained to you that this is not the reason VP is a train-friendly zone.

You obviously didn't read the second portion of my post bro!

[Thulack]

I am so glad that morans can't poopsock Phara Dar.

How was VP hunting on classic for you?....oh wait..nm

[Buellen]

[QUOTE=.



The other point that is driving me nuts is the staff's relative indifference to the whole business. We were promised simultaneous repops almost a YEAR ago. I know Rogean has a job that sucks up his time. I know Nilbog looks at this as the beta server and mostly cares about replicating classic Everquest. I know Sirken just wants to see a bunch of people fight over virtual pixels for some reason. So get another programmer.

.[/QUOTE]


no offense but maybe some folks need to step back and breath. WE <including myself> are not entitled to anything from server or its staff. WE play and enjoy or dislike the server in its current form. that is all. Even if it take them 5 years to get it right so be it.


I enjoy this server immensely yes their are aspect that annoy me but if ever I get to point where I am not happy then I will take a break and come back later.

Finally Remember LIFE is always GREATER than this game.


Garue 47th half elf warrior follower of karana/ Buskier 34th Human Cleric Follower Rodcet NIFE


my 2 cents.

[kylok]

Agreeing with Tattersail and the JIT on this one. I believe the No CSR policy is related to the staff simply not having the time to deal with VP related issues.

[Langrisser]

so if you get your own clear evidence of fraps and logs and do all the work, you may actually have evidence that can be reviewed and action taken at leisure and discretion ... sounds like the way to go.

make it 1080p with directors commentary and checksums for all files and now go kill self

[Sarius]

This thread is a monument to how everyone projects every post about the raid scene into some sort of pro/anti TMO agenda, even when the original post went into great length about how I hate that. I am not for or against TMO. There are guys in TMO that I like (even you Jeremy!) and guys that I can't stand. I would like to see the raid scene changed not because the rules aren't fair (they are, unless Sirken is feeding tiggles mob spawn times under the table) or because one guild gets all the mobs (oh well) but because THE RULES AREN'T FUN.

I'm not TMO bashing or anything, I am just saying that simultaneous repops will not help the raid scene, as we have seen with full server repops.

Other than tokens, what solution would you propose to fix the situation?

[Kagatob]

Get rid of FTE

[Enygma]

Get rid of FTE

no.

[kylok]

There's no "fixing" the raid scene because it isn't broken - some people just don't like it. There will always be some who are happy or unhappy with any given situation. There's no way to make everyone happy.

[Kagatob]

no.

Things 0-skill zerg guild's members say.

[Splorf22]

I'm not TMO bashing or anything, I am just saying that simultaneous repops will not help the raid scene, as we have seen with full server repops.

Your definition of fixing the raid scene is an even distribution of pixels.

My definition of fixing the raid scene is one where the act of competing itself is basically enjoyable.

[kylok]

If anything FTE helps non zerg guilds... else a zerg guild will KS you every time... as they have... zerg dps....

[Kagatob]

If anything FTE helps non zerg guilds... else a zerg guild will KS you every time... as they have... zerg dps....

That's what the zerg guilds want you to think so they can keep a large mobile force and only have to pay a single person to keep an eye on a zone as opposed to having to keep an entire raid force stationed at the site if they want it.

It's all about profit and loss, they'd still be "on top" of the raid scene without FTE, but they'd have to work even harder for it... something they don't want to do, even though they are the first ones to talk about how your only problem isn't being dedicated enough yourself.

[Sarius]

Your definition of fixing the raid scene is an even distribution of pixels.

My definition of fixing the raid scene is one where the act of competing itself is basically enjoyable.

So, once again, if repops do not allow your guild to get raid mobs, what do you propose to fix the raid scene other than tokens? What can be done to make the raid scene fun and enjoyable?

[Kagatob]

So, once again, if repops do not allow your guild to get raid mobs, what do you propose to fix the raid scene other than tokens? What can be done to make the raid scene fun and enjoyable?

Besides a server wipe? :cool:

[sanforce]

Don't worry, you'll get your classic tokens soon. In velious, VS and Trak will be triggered mobs.

[Alarti0001]

Your definition of fixing the raid scene is an even distribution of pixels.

My definition of fixing the raid scene is one where the act of competing itself is basically enjoyable.

opinion.

[Barkingturtle]

My definition of fixing the raid scene is one where the act of competing itself is basically enjoyable.

Trouble is, there's an overwhelming contingent of players who only find the ends enjoyable--and the means are justifiable no matter what. I can't blame the powers-that-be for not wanting to deal with the raid-scene any more than they have when their every effort has proven to be Sisyphean. Every iteration of the rules has been seen as an obstacle to these people and they never embrace the spirit of the rulings--preferring instead to plot and scheme as to how far the envelope can be pushed and how the rules can be lawyered and ultimately defeated.

[webrunner5]

If you, as a guild, are not willing to be better, faster, quicker, smarter, more dedicated, hell I can go on and on than TMO is, then guess what you lose. Jesus people quit crying like little girls.

God, so many people want something for nothing. This just reflects how real life in this country has become now. Grow the F up. Wow, just thread after thread of winning, cry baby bastards. It is embarrassing as hell. If some of you people were my son I would kick your ass all over the block.

[Vianna]

If you, as a guild, are not willing to be better, faster, quicker, smarter, more dedicated, hell I can go on and on than TMO is, then guess what you lose. Jesus people quit crying like little girls.

God, so many people want something for nothing. This just reflects how real life in this country has become now. Grow the F up. Wow, just thread after thread of winning, cry baby bastards. It is embarrassing as hell.

Winning ? As for the rest of your red faced tirade.. No one wants something for nothing. What we want is a balanced playing field.

[Sarius]

If you, as a guild, are not willing to be better, faster, quicker, smarter, more dedicated, hell I can go on and on than TMO is, then guess what you lose. Jesus people quit crying like little girls.

God, so many people want something for nothing. This just reflects how real life in this country has become now. Grow the F up. Wow, just thread after thread of winning, cry baby bastards. It is embarrassing as hell. If some of you people were my son I would kick your ass all over the block.

Wow, you're an idiot.

[kylok]

Winning ? As for the rest of your red faced tirade.. No one wants something for nothing. What we want is a balanced playing field.

It is balanced, other people are just more willing to do what it takes to get what they want.

[Langrisser]

hey he's not an idiot he at least put in Quicker and Faster, since thats all it really means when you outkill another guild ... there is no quality of betterness outside of very specific terms of speed of kills ... the strata you belong to simply is or it isnt.

jealousy is your choice though... /wrist /moan

[Vianna]

It is balanced, other people are just more willing to do what it takes to get what they want.

No it isn't. Because a guild has more people willing to spend hours training doesn't mean the game is balanced. It means they have more griefers than the other guild... Again no offense to you guys... Training at the moment is not against the rules. But when you win targets solely because you train more than another guild successfully...That is not balance.

[kylok]

And how is that an issue of balance?

[Vianna]

And how is that an issue of balance?

When a guild can win simply because they have more trainers...? How is it not ? Racing to a mob is competition. TMO still has the advantage regardless of what the rules are by their size. Balance gets thrown out when a large guild can simply train a zone to keep it uncontested while they watch other targets. Again no offense to TMO they have every right to do so by the current rules. It simply throws off the balance from VP down. IF they had to race and distribute resources to protect VP via racing then a few spawns would be open to the rest of the server.

[xarzzardorn]

loraen is just upset his guild of the best players on the server doesnt get to attempt trakanon with 10 people whenever they feel like it. keep fuckin those chickens in sky you shitlord

[kylok]

Unbalanced would imply an unfair advantage, i.e. one that another guild could not replicate/do themselves. This is not the case. It's like if two strippers are on Howard Stern and one is willing to debase themselves more than the other for money - it's not an issue of balance it's an issue of who's willing to sacrifice more for their ends.

[Thulack]

If you, as a guild, are not willing to be better, faster, quicker, smarter, more dedicated, hell I can go on and on than TMO is, then guess what you lose. Jesus people quit crying like little girls.

God, so many people want something for nothing. This just reflects how real life in this country has become now. Grow the F up. Wow, just thread after thread of winning, cry baby bastards. It is embarrassing as hell. If some of you people were my son I would kick your ass all over the block.

Something for nothing? No one is asking for loot to be handed to them by a GM. they want a chance to kill a mob without having to worry about some dbag bringing 20 mobs to their camp. If people really wanted to play like that they can goto Red. I hear there are a bunch of Dbag trainers over there. Then they could get their "competition"

[zanderklocke]

Training is fine with me.

However, I think variance is sort of lame. I think the game would be a lot more fun if the raid targets all popped at the same time once a week. People would actually get to try to get mobs, and FTE would "hopefully" eliminate disputes. For sure there is no way that TMO or any power guild would get all the mobs. Only thing I can't figure out is whether or not it should be the same time each week that all mobs spawn or if the weekly time should be random. Regardless, this would decrease tracking with either situation, and people could actually play the game instead of just staring at the screen doing nothing. I did the tracking of Ragefire to get my blazing armor which wasn't fun, and I'm glad it's done.

Regardless, I don't have much interest in participating in raiding through tracking/batphoning, so my time on P99 is essentially done. I had my fun, still mess around on the forums, but I feel like I "won" EverQuest by getting to 60 and obtaining many Kunark best in slot pieces.

[webrunner5]

Something for nothing? No one is asking for loot to be handed to them by a GM. they want a chance to kill a mob without having to worry about some dbag bringing 20 mobs to their camp. If people really wanted to play like that they can goto Red. I hear there are a bunch of Dbag trainers over there. Then they could get their "competition"

NOTHING in life is free. Get over it. Play faster, smarter and guess what you win. You think anyone in RL just sits on their ass and ends up with the brass ring. It is a dog eat dog world on here and in RL. I would guess a lot of people that are in TMO play on Red also. They are go for the throat types, and play to win.

Not my style, I am too old for that crap now, but I am not complaining if I can't or don't want to run with the big dogs anymore. Such is life.

[kylok]

Training is fine with me.

However, I think variance is sort of lame. I think the game would be a lot more fun if the raid targets all popped at the same time once a week. People would actually get to try to get mobs, and FTE would "hopefully" eliminate disputes. For sure there is no way that TMO or any power guild would get all the mobs. Only thing I can't figure out is whether or not it should be the same time each week that all mobs spawn or if the weekly time should be random. Regardless, this would decrease tracking with either situation, and people could actually play the game instead of just staring at the screen doing nothing. I did the tracking of Ragefire to get my blazing armor which wasn't fun, and I'm glad it's done.

Regardless, I don't have much interest in participating in raiding through tracking/batphoning, so my time on P99 is essentially done. I had my fun, still mess around on the forums, but I feel like I "won" EverQuest by getting to 60 and obtaining many Kunark best in slot pieces.

+1 probably best post in this thread

[Sarius]

They would need to eliminate training in VP AND have simultaneous repops in order for more guilds to have a shot a raid mobs. Otherwise one or two trainers could keep VP raiders at bay while the remainder of their guild cleans up the other mobs

[Aaron]

Winning ? As for the rest of your red faced tirade.. No one wants something for nothing. What we want is a balanced playing field.

This isn't right either. I don't know how so many people are missing the point of the post. It's not about fair/unfair or balanced playing fields. The playing field is balanced. Everyone has an equal opportunity to go after raid mobs.

The issue is fun. Nobody 'likes' the end game. It consists of hitting a Tracking button over and over again and then sending out a mass text. That's not fun. It's just dumb.

[Aaron]

Regardless, I don't have much interest in participating in raiding through tracking/batphoning, so my time on P99 is essentially done. I had my fun, still mess around on the forums, but I feel like I "won" EverQuest by getting to 60 and obtaining many Kunark best in slot pieces.

Pretty much this.

Raiding is not fun on P99. It's boring.

[Vianna]

This isn't right either. I don't know how so many people are missing the point of the post. It's not about fair/unfair or balanced playing fields. The playing field is balanced. Everyone has an equal opportunity to go after raid mobs.

The issue is fun. Nobody 'likes' the end game. It consists of hitting a Tracking button over and over again and then sending out a mass text. That's not fun. It's just dumb.

I have no problem hitting a tracking button. I have a problem training people intetionally over mobs.

[webrunner5]

Training is fine with me.

However, I think variance is sort of lame. I think the game would be a lot more fun if the raid targets all popped at the same time once a week. People would actually get to try to get mobs, and FTE would "hopefully" eliminate disputes. For sure there is no way that TMO or any power guild would get all the mobs. Only thing I can't figure out is whether or not it should be the same time each week that all mobs spawn or if the weekly time should be random. Regardless, this would decrease tracking with either situation, and people could actually play the game instead of just staring at the screen doing nothing. I did the tracking of Ragefire to get my blazing armor which wasn't fun, and I'm glad it's done.

Regardless, I don't have much interest in participating in raiding through tracking/batphoning, so my time on P99 is essentially done. I had my fun, still mess around on the forums, but I feel like I "won" EverQuest by getting to 60 and obtaining many Kunark best in slot pieces.

Not the worse idea I have ever heard but what about if you live in New Zealand?? You get to get up at say 3:00 am to kill big ugly Dragons every time?? Just silly in reality. Or are you going to tell your wife you are getting up at 3:00 am. Tell us how well that will work out plz.

[Sarius]

I have no problem hitting a tracking button. I have a problem training people intetionally over mobs.

Think you're looking for the VP thread

[Vianna]

Think you're looking for the VP thread

Nope in the right thread =p

[kylok]

Raiding is not fun on P99. It's boring.

Shit's Classic

[falkun]

Training in VP allows the guild that controls VP to kill other targets and keep a small training force in VP to prevent others from killing precious VP mobs. If you could not train in VP, there are enough people keyed that the mobs would die immediately and trainers couldn't save them for later. Consider the effects of holing VP capable guilds up in VP on respawn days when they can't save the VP mobs for last...

To whomever said this server is a Classic experience, please tell me how 96+ hour Variance is classic.

As I've said in the Sirken interview thread, if CSR wants the playerbase to self-police, then give us the capability to self-police. Variance takes away capability to police: only when your guild can answer a batphone instead of planning ahead.

Webrunner, this is EQ, not real life, we're in their world now. I play real life when I take my dog to the park, cook dinner for/with my wife, and pay my bills. When paying bills becomes more satisfying than raiding, something's wrong with the game.

Lorean, that was a good OP, don't let the troll/spin-force get you down.

[kaev]

When paying bills becomes more satisfying than raiding, something's wrong with the game.

Amen

[carli]

Training in VP allows the guild that controls VP to kill other targets and keep a small training force in VP to prevent others from killing precious VP mobs. If you could not train in VP, there are enough people keyed that the mobs would die immediately and trainers couldn't save them for later. Consider the effects of holing VP capable guilds up in VP on respawn days when they can't save the VP mobs for last...

To whomever said this server is a Classic experience, please tell me how 96+ hour Variance is classic.

As I've said in the Sirken interview thread, if CSR wants the playerbase to self-police, then give us the capability to self-police. Variance takes away capability to police: only when your guild can answer a batphone instead of planning ahead.

Webrunner, this is EQ, not real life, we're in their world now. I play real life when I take my dog to the park, cook dinner for/with my wife, and pay my bills. When paying bills becomes more satisfying than raiding, something's wrong with the game.

Lorean, that was a good OP, don't let the troll/spin-force get you down.

Great post I agree with everything said here.

[zanderklocke]

If I had a battle to pick with the raid scene in terms of what makes the overall experience less fun for all players in terms of "training in VP" or "variance", I'm still going to say it's variance.

No one, not even TMO enjoys tracking. Everyone wants simultaneous raid mobs popping with people racing to the targets. Why do you think everyone has so much fun on server repop days and score tally threads pop up on the forums? It's fun competition that everyone tries to take part in.

Pressing track or staring at all wall just isn't fun; no one on this server has fun doing it.

Obviously, some people do not have fun due to training in VP, but on the other hand, some people do have fun training in VP. I would sure as heck be annoyed if I was killing a mob, and then all of a sudden my raid got wiped due to someone pulling mobs over us. However, I'd probably be somewhat excited to have a chance at a mob if the competing raid was trained over. It just depends on the side of the spectrum you are on I suppose; no one getting loot based on the system will want it to change. Some people like training; others don't. No general consensus will be reached on this topic.

However, with this being said, no one enjoys tracking and staring at the wall. Absolutely no one. I really think a general consensus could be reached on agreeing that variance, which is not classic, takes away from having fun in the game for all people on the server. Maybe guilds like being able to have a system in place that allows their guild to better mobilize and get mobs, but the actual trackers are not actually having "fun" when tracking.

Let's not kid ourselves, tracking does not take more skill; it just takes more warm bodies. Training in VP on the other hand probably does involve skill, even if the playing fields aren't quite even due to lack of VP keys being available. Perhaps removing variance might pop some more Trakanon teeth into the population? If people want EQ to be a game of skill, fun, and competition, variance probably has to go. It stands in opposition to all these factors that could make EQ raiding fun. Training in VP is an issue that is on the fence for me; I think it's a much more difficult issue to reach a consensus on.

Thoughts?

[kylok]

Best anti variance argument I've read. Based on the couple server repops I've seen in the last few weeks I have to agree that variance makes the game less fun for everyone.

[falkun]

Training in VP is an issue that is on the fence for me; I think it's a much more difficult issue to reach a consensus on.

Thoughts?
The massive Variance this server has is not classic, but it is nice that raid mobs are allowed to drift around the clock so they are sometimes in prime-time for non-US folks. Personally I'd like pre-announced (like 2-7 days notice?) full respawn either a) every other week and does not affect normal timers or b) once per month that resets all spawn timers. But do not always have the full respawn at the same time of day, just give adequate notice so people can be on.

My reason for being against training in VP is that training allows VP capable guilds to kill targets outside VP first and save VP targets for when its convenient. Killing spawns when its convenient is:
1) counter-philosophy to Variance (Sirken says Variance keeps guilds from pushing spawns to "off-hours" as Nihilum on Red does)
2) Reduces the chance for other guilds to get raid mobs because VP guilds do not have to focus on VP and can focus efforts elsewhere
3) Makes VP different than every other zone in the game

[enr4ged]

My point is they are other servers with alternate rule sets and they don't work. People want a classic server and got it. Nothing needs to be changed.

p99 has variance and VP training.
Variance is not classic, training people in VP is not classic.

This is the whole point of his post. How did you miss this. Your point is illogical.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I always found it interesting how some individuals will sycophantically praise Nilbog and Rogean for making P99 available for everyone to enjoy, yet they react with violent allergy to the mere suggestion that small and occasional courtesy might also be a worthy aspiration.

[Clark]

I am so glad that morans can't poopsock Phara Dar.

moron*

[kylok]

moron*

I believe that's purposefully misspelled =/

[quido]

some people are new to the internet

[sanforce]

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/page/moran-7512.jpg

[Splorf22]

I always found it interesting how some individuals will sycophantically praise Nilbog and Rogean for making P99 available for everyone to enjoy, yet they react with violent allergy to the mere suggestion that small and occasional courtesy might also be a worthy aspiration.

I'm always polite!

[Tiggles]

This thread is terrible

[Bantam 1]

This thread is terrible

Vegas not go as planned? Your posts went from okay to "I need a hug" rather quickly man.

[Nietche]

Maybe if you didn't cockblock the rest of the server on VP keys he'd be able to bring some pals and get it himself.

How? By engaging Trak when it spawns? By camping people at Trak ledge when Trak is in window? Do other guilds do this? FE does. Anyone else? Please.

Sakuragi - if you have a problem like this... there is a server for people like you... it's called the SLeeper - please contact Toop to enjoy his dying game.

Thanks,

Because a guild has more people willing to spend hours training doesn't mean the game is balanced. It means they have more griefers than the other guild

How is this possible when FE zerg invites everyone on the planet? You have even more people now that FC has merged with you. Of all the guilds on the server, FE has the best chance to compete with TMO in VP with a full raid force. But you don't.

some people are new to the internet

^ Because I thought it was funny

[Vianna]

How is this possible when FE zerg invites everyone on the planet? You have even more people now that FC has merged with you. Of all the guilds on the server, FE has the best chance to compete with TMO in VP with a full raid force. But you don't.

Yeah.... Because no guild recruits but FE. I think you need to check out this link before the merger.

http://p1999pop.dmsimard.com/db/Guilds

Now keep in mind not all of Full Circle came over. A lot yes. But which guilds look like the zerg recruiters by those numbers ? Hate to keep dispelling your myths though. =(

[Nietche]

Yeah.... Because no guild recruits but FE. I think you need to check out this link before the merger.

http://p1999pop.dmsimard.com/db/Guilds

Now keep in mind not all of Full Circle came over. A lot yes. But which guilds look like the zerg recruiters by those numbers ? Hate to keep dispelling your myths though. =(

Really? You're comparing the total numbers between two guilds with quite disparate histories. TMO has been around a lot longer than FE. It makes sense, then, that we would have more members?

[Vianna]

Really? You're comparing the total numbers between two guilds with quite disparate histories. TMO has been around a lot longer than FE. It makes sense, then, that we would have more members?

Those are people that logged into the server.....That means current active rosters. If FE was "Zerg Recruiting" their numbers would be way more than 106.

[Nietche]

Those are people that logged into the server.....That means current active rosters. If FE was "Zerg Recruiting" their numbers would be way more than 106.

True, but many FE left to IB relatively recently. So you would have far more than 106 if not for your defectors.

[Vianna]

True, but many FE left to IB relatively recently. So you would have far more than 106 if not for your defectors.

Agreed but it still never reached TMO numbers was my point. I think everyone knew they would lose some members when IB came back.

[Shinko]

nothing i say it worth quoting since i am a BDA reject

[Wildino]

I didn't read any of this thread but any rule change may stop me as a TMO member from getting as much loot for my alts I will veto it.

I love this guy. A pure "Made in Usa" tard. I play EQ for this too, explore humanity deep minds. Keep shoving.

[xmonkx]

I for one, enjoy training in VP. Secondly, everyone complains about how its not fair or balanced, how do you figure? Get a monk or FD class, call your friends and meet me in vp? People act like the GM's give TMO members some special powers in VP that gives us an edge. Stop being pussies and get in there and fight for what you want. Not this oooo I beat you to the front of the line with faster mobilization or OO we got FTE snipe. And i'll state this again. Everyone's definition of "Having Fun" on this server is far different from the man or woman to the left or right of him.

tl/dr: Meet me in vp - quit bitchin

[Vianna]

I for one, enjoy training in VP. Secondly, everyone complains about how its not fair or balanced, how do you figure? Get a monk or FD class, call your friends and meet me in vp? People act like the GM's give TMO members some special powers in VP that gives us an edge. Stop being pussies and get in there and fight for what you want. Not this oooo I beat you to the front of the line with faster mobilization or OO we got FTE snipe. And i'll state this again. Everyone's definition of "Having Fun" on this server is far different from the man or woman to the left or right of him.

tl/dr: Meet me in vp - quit bitchin

This isn't a PVP server if we wanted to kill other people we would be on red. I am sure you would fit in there if you want to fight people.

[xmonkx]

This isn't a PVP server if we wanted to kill other people we would be on red. I am sure you would fit in there if you want to fight people.

Yah, this isn't red now is it. But rules state VP is fair game. Put your big boy pants on and do it like the rest of us. Funny how FE doesnt show up for CT anymore because they put in FTE shouts. Virtually the only way they could get mobs. And then variances so the 7 day poopsocks at VS are getting tiredsome. So lets bitch up a storm and try to change things so it benefits us.

[Vianna]

Yah, this isn't red now is it. But rules state VP is fair game. Put your big boy pants on and do it like the rest of us. Funny how FE doesnt show up for CT anymore because they put in FTE shouts. Virtually the only way they could get mobs. And then variances so the 7 day poopsocks at VS are getting tiredsome. So lets bitch up a storm and try to change things so it benefits us.

Yeah, that is not why anyone is bitching. Hate to break it to ya it isn't about the benefit of one person. People who don't even attempt to raid because of some of the problems with it right now are complaining too. I know you may be selfish and see things that way but to some of us the community matters.

[kenzar]

Yah, this isn't red now is it. But rules state VP is fair game. Put your big boy pants on and do it like the rest of us. Funny how FE doesnt show up for CT anymore because they put in FTE shouts. Virtually the only way they could get mobs. And then variances so the 7 day poopsocks at VS are getting tiredsome. So lets bitch up a storm and try to change things so it benefits us.

Didnt FE just get innothule?

[Wildino]

I for one, enjoy training in VP. Secondly, everyone complains about how its not fair or balanced, how do you figure? Get a monk or FD class, call your friends and meet me in vp? People act like the GM's give TMO members some special powers in VP that gives us an edge. Stop being pussies and get in there and fight for what you want. Not this oooo I beat you to the front of the line with faster mobilization or OO we got FTE snipe. And i'll state this again. Everyone's definition of "Having Fun" on this server is far different from the man or woman to the left or right of him.

tl/dr: Meet me in vp - quit bitchin

You're right on a basic state. But we re talking about facts that shouldnt be caused ( Training allowed). Causes and effects, i know u know what is it, you saw matrix.

You would have fun in counter strike droping napalm on other camp and win, but wasent allowed.

You just keep hidded behind easy all done phrases you reapeat indefinitly.

The proof, and i'll withdraw.

[kylok]

Didnt FE just get innothule?

I lol'd

[xmonkx]

Yeah, that is not why anyone is bitching. Hate to break it to ya it isn't about the benefit of one person. People who don't even attempt to raid because of some of the problems with it right now are complaining too. I know you may be selfish and see things that way but to some of us the community matters.

So, you're white knighting for the rest of the server? Classic. And funny how you assume i'm sellfish when you don't even know me. Only people I see bitching in these threads are mostly FE and a few randoms. Please, go watch some more videos on raiding.

[kenzar]

You're right on a basic state. But we re talking about facts that shouldnt be caused ( Training allowed). Causes and effects, i know u know what is it, you saw matrix.

You would have fun in counter strike droping napalm on other camp and win, but wasent allowed.

You just keep hidded behind easy all done phrases you reapeat indefinitly.

The proof, and i'll withdraw.

drugs; share them.

[xmonkx]

Didnt FE just get innothule?

They sure did, off an FTE snipe on our pull. But you wouldn't know anything about DT's transfer of agro and what not would yah?

[kenzar]

you don't even know me.

You're right. I mean, everyone knows me, and I know everyone (everyone that matters at least.) You seem like a really important person, why dont we know each other?

[kenzar]

Only people I see bitching in these threads are mostly FE and a few randoms

They sure did, off an FTE snipe on our pull. But you wouldn't know anything about DT's transfer of agro and what not would yah?

Lol, no. I got all my server firsts by purposefully avoiding anything to do with raiding. Im not too learned on the whole npeesees aspect of the game...although I have heard about it; I like to run around and look pretty mostly.

[Vianna]

So, you're white knighting for the rest of the server? Classic. And funny how you assume i'm sellfish when you don't even know me. Only people I see bitching in these threads are mostly FE and a few randoms. Please, go watch some more videos on raiding.

Sorry busy killing Inny when your superior pull force messed up the pull. =)

[Sckrilla]

Funny how vocal certain people get after merging into FE *coughViannaMerkkcough*

Such badasses now!

[xmonkx]

Lol, no. I got all my server firsts by purposefully avoiding anything to do with raiding. Im not too learned on the whole npeesees aspect of the game...although I have heard about it; I like to run around and look pretty mostly.

Server 1st lemmie guess, Innothule and Cazic Feerrott?

[kenzar]

Sorry busy killing Inny when your superior pull force messed up the pull. =)

http://i.imgur.com/ndssh.jpg

[xmonkx]

Sorry busy killing Inny when your superior pull force messed up the pull. =)

Holy shit, not an inny kill! zomg please no, sell me that gem please.

[Vianna]

Funny how vocal certain people get after merging into FE *coughViannaMerkkcough*

Such badasses now!

You must be new around these boards. I was always vocal about the things that bothered me. Check out the sky thread. It has nothing to do with a guild tag. When something is wrong you point it out.

[xmonkx]

Such badasses now!

[Sckrilla]

You must be new around these boards. I was always vocal about the things that bothered me. Check out the sky thread. It has nothing to do with a guild tag. When something is wrong you point it out.
Sckrilla
Join Date: Mar 2010

Vianna
Join Date: Aug 2012

Totally new to these boards! Yeah I've seen your past Sky threads, never seen you get into the back and forth shit slingin' between TMO/FE... until *gasp* you merged with them. Same shit with Merkk. Cool guy prior to having the tag then immediately turns into a raging aspergers upon receiving the tag.

[kenzar]

srsly though, who the fuck are you people?

[falkun]

Yah, this isn't red now is it. But rules state VP is fair game. Put your big boy pants on and do it like the rest of us. Funny how FE doesnt show up for CT anymore because they put in FTE shouts. Virtually the only way they could get mobs. And then variances so the 7 day poopsocks at VS are getting tiredsome. So lets bitch up a storm and try to change things so it benefits us.

TMO doesn't have to bitch because the rules by default benefit them. Also, TMO bitched hardcore when the rules did not benefit them, references: hoop nerf, soulfire nerf request, TR pulling Sev off TMO kiting, TMO complaining about FE kiting Fay, Divinity realizing lockets might be dropping again in Droga, TD firepot binding shortly after TMO lost the Locket camp at Kunark launch, to name a few. Don't act like TMO does not bitch to change things to benefit them, it shows your ignorance.

[Vianna]

Sckrilla
Join Date: Mar 2010

Vianna
Join Date: Aug 2012

Totally new to these boards! Yeah I've seen your past Sky threads, never seen you get into the back and forth shit slingin' between TMO/FE... until *gasp* you merged with them. Same shit with Merkk. Cool guy prior to having the tag then immediately turns into a raging aspergers upon receiving the tag.

Reread my posts I am not slinging anything at your guild. I have no hard feelings towards TMO. I even said they were in their right by the rules to train in VP. It is sericx with is silly juvenile attitude towards everything that I was replying to in kind. You know I have no problem with you Netta we leveled in CoM together.

[xmonkx]

TMO doesn't have to bitch because the rules by default benefit them. Also, TMO bitched hardcore when the rules did not benefit them, references: hoop nerf, soulfire nerf request, TR pulling Sev off TMO kiting, TMO complaining about FE kiting Fay. Don't act like TMO does not bitch to change things to benefit them, it shows your ignorance.

How the hell does it benefit us? Do they give us a magical lamp that gives us 3 wishes the makes raiding easier? Nut up or shut up.

[Wildino]

Sckrilla
Join Date: Mar 2010

Vianna
Join Date: Aug 2012



OOohh, awesomeness and truth is all about Time and date ?

March 1999 Soe original account on live. Beat that !

[Sckrilla]

Reread my posts I am not slinging anything at your guild. I have no hard feelings towards TMO. I even said they were in their right by the rules to train in VP. It is sericx with is silly juvenile attitude towards everything that I was replying to in kind. You know I have no problem with you Netta we leveled in CoM together.
Exactly why I'm making this point. We leveled together for quite sometime and everything seemed kosher and fine. In fact, TMO was never even in your mouth during this time frame. Now all you have to do is do a search for your name on these forums and see that the top 3 threads you've posted in are directly about FE/TMO shenanigans (even though people want to write it off as shit involving the "future" of the server). Two of which, you've posted over a dozen times in. Just saying. It comes off as looking pretty frothy mad about TMO, whether you intend for it to or not.

And no one cares about Sericx anyways, everyone in TMO hates him! Bahahhhaha.....

[kenzar]

How the hell does it benefit us? Do they give us a magical lamp that gives us 3 wishes the makes raiding easier? Nut up or shut up.

Nah, Amelinda has been gone for a while now.

[Vianna]

OOohh, awesomeness and truth is all about Time and date ?

March 1999 Soe original account on live. Beat that !

It would have been even better if this was even the account my characters were on =)

The giveaway should have been 3 level 60 chars in that time frame =p

[webrunner5]

Training in VP allows the guild that controls VP to kill other targets and keep a small training force in VP to prevent others from killing precious VP mobs. If you could not train in VP, there are enough people keyed that the mobs would die immediately and trainers couldn't save them for later. Consider the effects of holing VP capable guilds up in VP on respawn days when they can't save the VP mobs for last...

To whomever said this server is a Classic experience, please tell me how 96+ hour Variance is classic.

As I've said in the Sirken interview thread, if CSR wants the playerbase to self-police, then give us the capability to self-police. Variance takes away capability to police: only when your guild can answer a batphone instead of planning ahead.

Webrunner, this is EQ, not real life, we're in their world now. I play real life when I take my dog to the park, cook dinner for/with my wife, and pay my bills. When paying bills becomes more satisfying than raiding, something's wrong with the game.

Lorean, that was a good OP, don't let the troll/spin-force get you down.

I know this is EQ, not something real on paper. But guess what, there are real people playing all these toons. Just go play on Red and you will see what REAL people like to do there. Kill your ass. And that is what most of the hardcore people want to do in TMO. Is kill your ass. Sad fact of life. Rogean, Nilbog, Sirken all seem to be hands off on the Raid Scene so it is not going to change like it or not. I am not fond of it either but I have just given up. Sad really.

[Stickyfingers]

Pretty sure this shit has been occurring since the server started...same things were happening in Fear and Hate when Dark Ascension and Inglorious were the top guilds, and before that Divinity and Transcendence were in the game. Its all the same bullshit.

[Vianna]

Exactly why I'm making this point. We leveled together for quite sometime and everything seemed kosher and fine. In fact, TMO was never even in your mouth during this time frame. Now all you have to do is do a search for your name on these forums and see that the top 3 threads you've posted in are directly about FE/TMO shenanigans (even though people want to write it off as shit involving the "future" of the server). Two of which, you've posted over a dozen times in. Just saying. It comes off as looking pretty frothy mad about TMO, whether you intend for it to or not.

And no one cares about Sericx anyways, everyone in TMO hates him! Bahahhhaha.....

It isn't about TMO and FE. Why are you misreading what I am saying lol. I was talking about the raid scene and the new mechanics in the scene with extended windows and FTE shouts that training isn't needed in any zone to settle anything anymore. I know it isn't a popular opinion with raiders and some in my own guild love training in VP.... It's just my views on it.

Also please read my posts I never trashed any guild for doing it. I am even cordial to anyone who wants to have a discussion about anything from any guild. I haven't spent time trying to trash anyone. It would be counterproductive. I think that is the problem a lot of times. Grudges get held over the silliest things.

[Sckrilla]

OOohh, awesomeness and truth is all about Time and date ?

March 1999 Soe original account on live. Beat that !
Who said anything about truths? Do you lack reading comprehension as much as Tasslehof or something? It was stated that I might be new to these boards, what I posted simply proves otherwise considering the dates' relevancy. Derp.

[falkun]

I know this is EQ, not something real on paper. But guess what, there are real people playing all these toons. Just go play on Red and you will see what REAL people like to do there. Kill your ass. And that is what most of the hardcore people want to do in TMO. Is kill your ass. Sad fact of life. Rogean, Nilbog, Sirken all seem to be hands off on the Raid Scene so it is not going to change like it or not.

So basically you are saying TMO would fit in on Red, since the goals of the two align. Sounds good to me. Go be internet tough guys and "kill that ass" on Red. Can't make it in the Marine Corp., join TMO on Red, its almost equivalent. (Apologies to the Marine Corp., I'm sure most of you are not out to simply "kill that ass", maybe death row would fit TMO better?)

[xmonkx]

Reread my posts I am not slinging anything at your guild. I have no hard feelings towards TMO. I even said they were in their right by the rules to train in VP. It is sericx with is silly juvenile attitude towards everything that I was replying to in kind. You know I have no problem with you Netta we leveled in CoM together.

So basically your saying through all the moaning and crying is you want a WoW like environment to cater to the casual player. As if raids outside of VP dont take more then 5 mins. So when VP comes and there is train wars you have to stay a bit longer, you begin to moan and bitch? Again this thread and the other was not created by me. So again it is the you or anyone who agrees with the non training rules to provide the proof that is was NOT allowed on classic. Which no one has shown me a single piece of evidence stating otherwise. Show me a SOLID piece of evidence that states there was no training allowed in VP.

[Vianna]

So basically your saying through all the moaning and crying is you want a WoW like environment to cater to the casual player so they. As if raids outside of VP dont take more then 5 mins. So when VP comes and there is train wars you have to stay a bit longer, you begin to moan and bitch? Again this thread and the other was not created by me. So again it is the you or anyone who agrees with the non training rules to provide the proof that is was NOT allowed on classic. Which no one has shown me a single piece of evidence stating otherwise. Show me a SOLID piece of evidence that states there was no training allowed in VP.

You have a huge reading comprehension problem. That is all I will say in response to this.

[Sckrilla]

So basically you are saying TMO would fit in on Red, since the goals of the two align. Sounds good to me. Go be internet tough guys and "kill that ass" on Red. Can't make it in the Marine Corp., join TMO on Red, its almost equivalent. (Apologies to the Marine Corp., I'm sure most of you are not out to simply "kill that ass", maybe death row would fit TMO better?)
Funny you mad this correlation considering Sericx is an ex-jarhead... lulz!

[falkun]

How the hell does it benefit us? Do they give us a magical lamp that gives us 3 wishes the makes raiding easier? Nut up or shut up.

If you require explanations on how the hoop nerf, soulfire nerf request, anti-kiting methods, etc. benefit your guild, I refer you to the RNF forum where all of these arguments have been hashed out ad nauseam, with your guild members prominently establishing and then defending their positions. Please search for usernames such as "Alarti0001".

[Wildino]

Who said anything about truths? Do you lack reading comprehension as much as Tasslehof or something? It was stated that I might be new to these boards, what I posted simply proves otherwise considering the dates' relevancy. Derp.

I just answered something stupid to a stupid post.

My point was to tell you everyone is allowed to give his coopers, up to them is they say something retarded and look idiot.

[Sckrilla]

I just answered something stupid to a stupid post.

My point was to tell you everyone is allowed to give his coopers, up to them is they say something retarded and look idiot.
^^wutt???

[Wildino]

^^wutt???

J'ai juste répondu une connerie à une autre.

Je voulais juste te préciser que chacun peut donner son avis, libre à eux d'avoir l'air cons s'ils disent n'importe quoi.


:D

[kenzar]

So basically your saying through all the moaning and crying is you want a WoW like environment to cater to the casual player so they. As if raids outside of VP dont take more then 5 mins. So when VP comes and there is train wars you have to stay a bit longer, you begin to moan and bitch? Again this thread and the other was not created by me. So again it is the you or anyone who agrees with the non training rules to provide the proof that is was NOT allowed on classic. Which no one has shown me a single piece of evidence stating otherwise. Show me a SOLID piece of evidence that states there was no training allowed in VP.

There is a small, white, china teapot that orbits the sun, sort of near Mercury's orbital ellipse. Show me a SOLID piece of evidence that states there is no small, white, china teapot that orbits the sun, sort of near Mercury's orbital ellipse.

edit: you seem pretty dumb and I realize I might have put u at a disadvantage with my cryptic jab, sorry. What I'm getting at is, you ask for proof that training was NOT allowed on live, when that isn't even the issue lol. Rogean/Sirken have both said that the only reason training in VP is allowed is due to pathing issues unique to our server. This isn't an issue about live vs. p99, its more a issue about convenience.

Don't worry guys, IB has been working closely with the dev team on the vel. beta server to ensure ST (and other zones :) ) have extremely accurate pathing/LoS. Even as we speak the server was brought down to have several zones populated with fresh new PATHING npc's for us to kill one day. You're welcome.

[Sckrilla]

J'ai juste répondu une connerie à une autre.

Je voulais juste te préciser que chacun peut donner son avis, libre à eux d'avoir l'air cons s'ils disent n'importe quoi.


:D

OHHH I GET IT! All you had to say!

Fair enough! ;)

[xmonkx]

TMO doesn't have to bitch because the rules by default benefit them

If you are dumb enough to believe we can't exploit hoops and spam the shit out of soulfires your sadly mistaken. How does the current rules by default benefit us vs any other raiding guild? Does FE/BDA/IB's monks/sk's/necros FD not work properly?

[falkun]

If you are dumb enough to believe we can exploit hoops and spam the shit out of soulfires your sadly mistaken. How does the current rules by default benefit us vs any other raiding guild? Does FE/BDA/IB's monks/sk's/necros FD not work properly?

So you are denying that TMO initiated 1) hooping Trak, and 2) petitioning/bug reporting for their ban? P99 forums would disagree with you.

[kenzar]

So you are denying that TMO initiated 1) hooping Trak, and 2) petitioning/bug reporting for their ban? P99 forums would disagree with you.

Lol, its like TMO fanboys have been playing on an entirely different server this whole time.

[xmonkx]

. This isn't an issue about live vs. p99, its more a issue about convenience.



So cater to the casuals that wants things conveniently... Sounds like WoW to me.

[kenzar]

So cater to the casuals that wants things conveniently... Sounds like WoW to me.

In this case the "casuals" u are referring to are the CSR staff. Do you even read?

Let me spell it out for you. VP training is allowed because VP has sub-par pathing. Sub-par pathing leads to lots and lots of petitions about guildX trained guildY during their attempt to kill Z <----this is a lot of work every few days for the CSR staff. It was easier to lump the free training tag onto the zone than it was to re-do the pathing..bro do u even p99? How do people not know this by now, it was glaringly apparent since IB beta tested/dev'd VP for the server 2 years ago, and it was glaringly apparently day 1 of VP being implemented.

[falkun]

So cater to the casuals that wants things conveniently... Sounds like WoW to me.

Or we can keep what we have now: cater to the neckbeards that didn't accomplish anything 13 years ago so make them work full-time jobs to equip 3+ characters in BiS so maybe that chick on the box art will finally pay attention to them. How many FoH, Afterlife, or Triton players do you think P99 has? Very few -- they beat the game 12 years ago and grew up and got jobs.

[xmonkx]

So you are denying that TMO initiated 1) hooping Trak, and 2) petitioning/bug reporting for their ban? P99 forums would disagree with you.

Honestly wasn't here for the IB / TMO showoff. Sadly enough i've only had to defend of FE. And this is were all the animosity comes from. They sit back and say dont train dont train, when I have over 10 archived fraps of them purposely training. Who was the last guild to get raid suspended for training, now they want to play nice because FTE shouts and variances doesnt fall in their favor? Now they know GM's are actively head hunting for malicious boss training outside of VP, so they cry? Why not just bring all your anger to VP? Long story short, I was raid suspended for 2 weeks for a retaliation train on FE, and not on trak, for a protector. They happened to be running fraps, at the time i didnt think I would have to, but that quickly changed and since then many FE has been suspended for training. So for them to sit back and say stop the trains, lets be friends, lets play nice. Fuck that and fuck FE.

[xmonkx]

Or we can keep what we have now: cater to the neckbeards that didn't accomplish anything 13 years ago so make them work full-time jobs to equip 3+ characters in BiS so maybe that chick on the box art will finally pay attention to them. How many FoH, Afterlife, or Triton players do you think P99 has? Very few -- they beat the game 12 years ago and grew up and got jobs.

Funny because I am former Afterlife. So is a handful of other TMO members that I also played with in classic.

[Wildino]

How does the current rules by default benefit us vs any other raiding guild? Does FE/BDA/IB's monks/sk's/necros FD not work properly?

You become better at dodge, evade, hidding but you are already waaay maxed

[kenzar]

Honestly wasn't here for the IB / TMO showoff. Sadly enough i've only had to defend of FE. And this is were all the animosity comes from. They sit back and say dont train dont train, when I have over 10 archived fraps of them purposely training. Who was the last guild to get raid suspended for training, now they want to play nice because FTE shouts and variances doesnt fall in their favor? Now they know GM's are actively head hunting for malicious boss training outside of VP, so they cry? Why not just bring all your anger to VP? Long story short, I was raid suspended for 2 weeks for a retaliation train on FE, and not on trak, for a protector. They happened to be running fraps, at the time i didnt think I would have to, but that quickly changed and since then many FE has been suspended for training. So for them to sit back and say stop the trains, lets be friends, lets play nice. Fuck that and fuck FE.

Only people I see bitching in these threads are mostly FE and a few randoms.


Baww, are you going to cry now or something?

[Vianna]

Honestly wasn't here for the IB / TMO showoff. Sadly enough i've only had to defend of FE. And this is were all the animosity comes from. They sit back and say dont train dont train, when I have over 10 archived fraps of them purposely training. Who was the last guild to get raid suspended for training, now they want to play nice because FTE shouts and variances doesnt fall in their favor? Now they know GM's are actively head hunting for malicious boss training outside of VP, so they cry? Why not just bring all your anger to VP? Long story short, I was raid suspended for 2 weeks for a retaliation train on FE, and not on trak, for a protector. They happened to be running fraps, at the time i didnt think I would have to, but that quickly changed and since then many FE has been suspended for training. So for them to sit back and say stop the trains, lets be friends, lets play nice. Fuck that and fuck FE.

We have no problem with Variance and FTE shouts. We actually enjoy them at this point. That is the point I was making. With those 2 mechanics in the game training isn't needed to solve anything anywhere. We all just have an agreement that if someone has the FTE shout not to train each other. I know no one will agree to it but it never hurts to ask. The culture of it in that zone has been soured by it too much I think. Maybe we can avoid it in Velious. But I doubt it.

[xmonkx]

Baww, are you going to cry now or something?

Yea, i'm crying irl...... loan me your shoulder?

[kenzar]

Yea, i'm crying irl...... loan me your shoulder?

Nah, I have this thing about the mentally handicapped. It's nothing against you personally, but if you touch me I will gag and throw up, sorry.

[xmonkx]

We have no problem with Variance and FTE shouts. We actually enjoy them at this point. That is the point I was making. With those 2 mechanics in the game training isn't needed to solve anything anywhere. We all just have an agreement that if someone has the FTE shout not to train each other. I know no one will agree to it but it never hurts to ask. The culture of it in that zone has been soured by it too much I think. Maybe we can avoid it in Velious. But I doubt it.

. Who was the last guild to get raid suspended for training?

So for them to sit back and say stop the trains, lets be friends, lets play nice. Fuck that and fuck FE.

[Vianna]

Ok I am sorry I was trying to have an intelligent conversation with you. I see where I made a mistake. My bad.

[xmonkx]

Cant answer the question can you? Guess you're too smart.

Edit: Would love to stay and chat but I have ranked Smite matches to attend to. So I will let you have the last word.

[kenzar]

Cant answer the question can you? Guess you're too smart.

says the guy who was demanding a proof of negative. this is rich.

[Vianna]

Cant answer the question can you? Guess you're too smart.

I can't answer question for events that occurred when I wasn't a part of the guild. You do realize a lot of the guild has changed at FE right ? The people who caused any kind of suspension may be in another guild now. You also realize any guild that has actually raided competitively on this server has usually ended up suspended at one time or another.... Right ? No guild has clean hands when in comes to suspensions if we are comparing TMO and FE which I was not trying to do. I was talking about the raid scene in general. I will state again to you to hopefully comprehend... I have no problems with your guild and hold no grudges. Stop trying to continuously make this out to be one guild vs. the other.

[grosen333]

Funny because I am former Afterlife. So is a handful of other TMO members that I also played with in classic.

Actually Afterlife (as a whole guild) would never train another guild, nor would they take other guild raid bosses from em.... so what does a former player of afterlife have on being classic, <--- from mith mar server as well!!! and you guys left to go to WOW, if i am correct because you guys didn't have enough raid content if i recall and that the devs at WOW let you guys in the BETA for testing... How does this server feel when TMO is taking every damn raid mob (or training or ksing) and leaving nothing left for other guilds on P99. Just so you can twink your alts...

[Estu]

Didn't read the thread; just wanted to say I loved the OP.

[Nirgon]

For the last time, VP is a no CSR involvement zone in classic. This holds true for Sleeper's in Velious.

[skipdog]

For me, tokens would defuse any interest I have in this server. Motivation to have highly sought after and hard to get gear keeps many of us playing. A lot of us know that gear is likely never going to get in our hands, but we keep going. It adds meaning to our time spent playing the game, makes the loot matter because it's so difficult to get and makes getting in on these raid mob kills more satisfying.

If there were tokens, this server would become so much like WoW, where all guilds can just ignore all other guilds, and every person who wants BiS just joins a guild and gets it with very minimal hours invested/week.

Honestly, I think people forget that this is EQ. The people with the most time and dedication should have the best things. It has always been this way. It was true in classic and it should be true here.

Trying to smear 'being organized, being dedicated and being capable of fast mobilization' as not being competition just seems really silly, when it's been established on this server for so long that this is what competition is meant to be. It also seems to me like the truest competition when we are talking about EQ.. the game defined by grinding for completely ridiculous amounts of time and holding money camps for even more ridiculous amounts of time.

I won't argue on the simulated server repops, that certainly should be in place by now.

But honestly, trying to say that raid tokens would fuel competition by guilds to beat bosses with fewest people possible is the most laughable statement I've read on these forums in awhile. Yeah competition to beat super old laughably easy raid content with fewer people for absolutely no benefit is really going to motivate guilds... rofl.

[Nirgon]

Are your lives about VP loot? Is there nothing else for you in this game? Jees.

[SCB]

If there were tokens, this server would become so much like WoW, where all guilds can just ignore all other guilds, and every person who wants BiS just joins a guild and gets it with very minimal hours invested/week.



This is the current server situation. If you think batphoning is time-intensive, you're crazy. The average hardcore EQ raider doesn't raid for 10 hours solid like in the old days. It's "CT POP" text message, 20 minutes to assemble/pull, 2 minute kill, collect pixels, log.

Feel the excitement.

[Nirgon]

Receive text, log in, taste the rainbow, shit's classic

[SCB]

Receive text, log in, taste the rainbow, shit's classic

I didn't have a cell phone until 2002 :(

[skipdog]

This is the current server situation. If you think batphoning is time-intensive, you're crazy. The average hardcore EQ raider doesn't raid for 10 hours solid like in the old days. It's "CT POP" text message, 20 minutes to assemble/pull, 2 minute kill, collect pixels, log.

Feel the excitement.

Exactly, and any other guilds are free to compete along those lines. I totally agree with you and to me, it makes posts like Falkun's a page back where he seems to claim that TMO is filled with unemployed losers seem that much more ridiculous. The competition is to get organized to the point where you can batphone and drop a mob before anybody else.

You talk about competition, and the only guild to TRY to compete with TMO is FE a couple months ago, and honestly, it looked like both FE and TMO were having good fun competing. No other guilds have even tried or have long ago 'given up as to not waste their members' time'.

I never said batphoning itself was time intensive. Everything it takes to get there is time intensive. Having multiple 60 alts logged and ready in multiple locations is time intensive. Having a guild of fully motivated players ready to batphone 24/7 is time consuming. Having a guild that doesn't fall apart or let infighting/drama/corruption affect them is time consuming.

So how are raid tokens exciting exactly? Not sure what can match the excitement of being a guild like FE stealing Traks from TMO, or being TMO finally getting their first trak kills. The thing is, any guild can do that... they just don't have the fortitude for it. That's the competition and it always has been.

Not sure what the point would be if every guild just gets to kill every raid mob each week. We'll all be BiS in no time and who even cares at that point? I mean any guild can go to some other EMU and already do this. The main point I am trying to make, is if every person in every guild is able to easily suit up BiS in a few months of raiding, where's the motivation? At least here, there is super difficult to obtain end gear and the glory of killing gods that is more sought after than what any item or raid mob in any other live MMO can offer today.

[SCB]

So how are raid tokens exciting exactly?

I'd rather watch a fraps of the A-Team 12-manning Phara Dar through some insane trick they pull than watch FE/TMO train-drama unfold.

There's a reason I have the "Solo Artist Challenge" thread bookmarked and have watched Tecmos fraps, but could not give a shit less about Tiggles stream.

[Splorf22]

Please search for usernames such as "Alarti0001".

Did you actually recommend that someone read Alarti's posts? Anyway, it's amazing how effective the various trolls are at turning these threads into RNF material. Going to give up on this one.

[falkun]

Did you actually recommend that someone read Alarti's posts? Anyway, it's amazing how effective the various trolls are at turning these threads into RNF material. Going to give up on this one.

Only when responding to Sericx. Personally I've added Alarti to my ignore and this forum is much better because of it.

[Nirgon]

I didn't have a cell phone until 2002 :(

Well good thing the content in game doesn't require one. Email has been around for a while.

[aowen]

This thread validates the position that so many people on this server are just a bunch of assholes. The original post points out issues that do cause problems for the majority of players, and the arguments supporting the current status-quo are absurd.

Most arguments for keeping raiding as is include:
Stop whining and step up to our level
Batphones are not that time consuming and can save time
The staff doesn't owe you anything
There would be high levels of competition regardless

While there is some merit to these points, most of them avoid the issue, which is a rising level of discontent with the raid scene. Batphones are impractical for many people, VP and most coveted targets are inaccessible for most, and there are solutions that would not require much time from the staff. But rather than have a serious discussion, many of you choose to act like cunts and divert the narrative to nonsense.

What this server needs to do is develop a sense of community and fair play rather than alienation and a king of the mountain mentality. Everyone wants to hit a dragon now and again, so let's see if someone can propose a coherent system to facilitate that goal.

[zanderklocke]

We have no problem with Variance and FTE shouts. We actually enjoy them at this point.

I really don't believe deep down you or your trackers enjoy variance; you enjoy the after effect of not having everyone ready to attack the mob right as it pops. Situations like below indicate why better solutions to variance could exist, ie server repops more often.

I think the only encounter I ever had with you in game was around last winter/early spring when I was trioing Ragefire with Zagum and Luchino from TMO. Full Circle was there that night as well, and everyone was poopsocking Ragefire to FTE hand in a pearl to him. We all spent like 9+ hours there from like 7 PM to 4:30 AM (maybe longer and Ragefire never popped), and Ragefire never popped before we all went to sleep or had to go to work.

That variance situation, in which Ragefire spawned like 40 hours into window, was a lot of fun. Like 19 players, including the Full Circle people there, were all just staring at the wall.

Yes, I know Ragefire is always a variance mob, but the point is that variance does not lead to actual enjoyment in playing the game. I would argue that tracking is not really playing the game; it's like forcing yourself to be AFK and stare at the screen.

http://i.imgur.com/tNvC540.jpg
I'm sure that night is how Brad McQuad intended EQ to be played.. ;)

The crazy thing with variance is that some guilds have responded by having a force present for the entire time a mob is in window as seen with people wanting to get VS, Sev, or Innoruuk. That is some real crazy shit. Like instead of mobilizing, people will engage in self-abuse behavior such as tracking for days straight in shifts.

I know this is a bit off topic, but all the ad hominem in these threads seems unnecessary. A lot of us are the same, have the same goals, and have fun when we work together. Here is my favorite moment I've had in EQ; look at the guild tags in the picture.
http://i.imgur.com/CRe7Ulv.jpg

[Splorf22]

The original post points out issues that do cause problems for the majority of players, and the arguments supporting the current status-quo are absurd.

Alright you've sucked me into one more post :D Damn forumquest!

What's funny is I made a post describing precisely how the whole 'you don't want to compete' type thinking is dumb, and then a bunch of people responded with precisely that.

Motivation to have highly sought after and hard to get gear keeps many of us playing.

We have 11 guilds on the Sky Rotation; at two tokens each thats 22 raid mobs a week vs 19 currently (17 if you don't count Maestro and Dracoliche) which equates to a 15% increase in raid mobs. It's not like the server would be flooded with bone-clasped girdles. And the number of tokens per guild could always be adjusted down if a lot of the guilds broke up into smaller ones to get more tokens as I expect would happen. Again, my point is that a token system is just as competitive, just not as retarded.

Trying to smear 'being organized, being dedicated and being capable of fast mobilization' as not being competition just seems really silly

This is precisely the kind of straw man that I am raging about in the original post. Organization and mobilization are about 10% of what it takes to get raid mobs on P1999, with "dedication" being another one of those idiotic code words for 'I sat at my computer hitting track for 40 hours this week'

WE GOT INNORUUK

See if I was a member of Forceful Entry and got up to kill some random pixels at 5AM, I would be pretty unhappy even if we actually got said pixels. Of course I would be really unhappy if I was Sericx. But again, I'm not anti-TMO and never have been. TMO is simply a guild that is designed to beat the current system. Their point that that other guilds can be designed to beat this system is reasonable.

Again, the current raid system is not unfair, just stupid. And with that I'm out for good!

P.S. Sericx, if I were you I'd stop arguing with Kenzar.

[Vianna]

[QUOTE=zanderklocke;1061917]I really don't believe deep down you or your trackers enjoy variance; you enjoy the after effect of not having everyone ready to attack the mob right as it pops. Situations like below indicate why better solutions to variance could exist, ie server repops more often.

I think the only encounter I ever had with you in game was around last winter/early spring when I was trioing Ragefire with Zagum and Luchino from TMO. Full Circle was there that night as well, and everyone was poopsocking Ragefire to FTE hand in a pearl to him. We all spent like 9+ hours there from like 7 PM to 4:30 AM (maybe longer and Ragefire never popped), and Ragefire never popped before we all went to sleep or had to go to work.

That variance situation, in which Ragefire spawned like 40 hours into window, was a lot of fun. Like 19 players, including the Full Circle people there, were all just staring at the wall.

Yes, I know Ragefire is always a variance mob, but the point is that variance does not lead to actual enjoyment in playing the game. I would argue that tracking is not really playing the game; it's like forcing yourself to be AFK and stare at the screen.


I'm sure that night is how Brad McQuad intended EQ to be played.. ;)

The crazy thing with variance is that some guilds have responded by having a force present for the entire time a mob is in window as seen with people wanting to get VS, Sev, or Innoruuk. That is some real crazy shit. Like instead of mobilizing, people will engage in self-abuse behavior such as tracking for days straight in shifts.

I know this is a bit off topic, but all the ad hominem in these threads seems unnecessary. A lot of us are the same, have the same goals, and have fun when we work together. Here is my favorite moment I've had in EQ; look at the guild tags in the picture.


No I actually enjoy not having to sit at a mob's spawn for hours (Unless it is my turn to track). If you guys knew how insanely easy it is to actually get shots at dragons with just 2 trackers and a batphone with the variance that is in place... I think you would change your view some on this issue...But not completely. Now is it classic ? No. I would prefer the classic ruleset because it would mean no one has to sit at a mob period until it was time for it to spawn.

However when offered to poopsock at the end of a mobs variance window vs. 1 tracker there with a raid force camped out....I'd choose the later. It doesn't burn people out and make them spend a large amount of time at a spawn. The FTE shouts let you know who has logged in fast enough and engaged first and whether you should be helping them kill that mob or not. Another good change from having 2 or 3 guilds kill a mob without any knowing who was actually going to get the loot. FYI Ragefire popped that night at around 1 am not 4:30 we barely spent 3 hours there. You got a fuzzy memory. He spawned about 10 mintues after you guys left.

[zanderklocke]

So if you had to choose between variance and all the mobs on the server popping at once, which would you choose?

I think the second choice would get my adrenaline pumping and be more fun, but that's just me.

[aowen]

The main use of the funds they get from trakanon breastplates and other gear is to buy other accounts to sit on spawn targets. These accounts are shared to people with the most playtime. So you have 20-30ish people with access to 20 accounts sitting on every target not in VP. So while most guilds would have to mobilize to a place. They can log in account and be fighting the boss 8-10 seconds after logging in. Sometimes they will tank stall a fight with Soulfire's *instant click cheal with 5 charges and easy to get*, to established something called FTE(First to engage). So they can have 2-3 people fight a raid mob almost indefinitely until forces log in.

It is pretty insurmountable unless you ask your entire guild to set their primary level 60 raider on a spawn point and log on 3-5 seconds after a batphone(a text message/twitter blast) is called by the tracker(the guy who gets paid DKP to sit and look at their screen until the mob pops).

Hope that explains to you what goes on at a high level raiding situation.

So that's a good synopsis of what goes on now. I have respect for those that are willing to do this, and I appreciate this level of competition, but I also find it highly tedious and simply not fun. I think many of us would like to see the system evolve into something that is not only more fun, but more reasonable and inclusive.

Tokens could be a consideration as many have proposed. An occasional pop of everything is also a thought. A combination of tokens for zones and variance may prove to be most fair, but others may think of something better. Let's remember that no change has to be permanent, and that implementing and testing new rules for raiding could be a benefit not only to those that are currently being disallowed access to end-game content, but those already sitting on top too.

[falkun]

So if you had to choose between variance and all the mobs on the server popping at once, which would you choose?

I think the second choice would get my adrenaline pumping and be more fun, but that's just me.

Here is how I'm reading "choose between variance and simultaneous respawns":
Pick one:
A) Remove Variance or reduce it to <4 hours.
B) Keep Variance, but add simultaneous respawns at least once a month where every raid mob spawns at once.

I'd rather have B) simultaneous respawns, even if they are unannounced. But if I had it my way, I'd prefer both implemented simultaneously.

[Nirgon]

This whining about VP being a non-CSR zone is just typical.

I heard WoW is free to play now! Or Rift if you wanna be edgy.

[radditsu]

This whining about VP being a non-CSR zone is just typical.

I heard WoW is free to play now! Or Rift if you wanna be edgy.

Training in VP has nothing to do with being non-CSR. According to Rogean it is a separate issue altogether.

Look at the poll thread, about a page or so in.


He also noted that it can be up for debate.

[zanderklocke]

This whining about VP being a non-CSR zone is just typical.

I heard WoW is free to play now! Or Rift if you wanna be edgy.

Yeah, I really don't care about VP training at all to be honest. The staff has indicated they do not have time for the headache that is VP, so the current rules make sense. I'll take people's word that the pathing is too difficult to stop trains, hence the current staff ruling.

I just have a problem with variance. I think with FTE shouts in place, it isn't really needed anymore.

[aowen]

This whining about VP being a non-CSR zone is just typical.

I heard WoW is free to play now! Or Rift if you wanna be edgy.

Just ignore him, he has nothing to contribute

[radditsu]

Just ignore him, he has nothing to contribute

I actually respect his opinion on things from time to time. I am willing to engage him.

He needs to use his magic knowledge of eq to find some info on how bow pulling worked though.

[radditsu]

Yeah, I really don't care about VP training at all to be honest. The staff has indicated they do not have time for the headache that is VP, so the current rules make sense. I'll take people's word that the pathing is too difficult to stop trains, hence the current staff ruling.

I just have a problem with variance. I think with FTE shouts in place, it isn't really needed anymore.

Variance windows could be shortened with FTE shout implemented. Although I would keep the random extended spawn time variable in place, albeit reduced as well. Sitting on the spawn is kinda lame.

[aowen]

I actually respect his opinion on things from time to time. I am willing to engage him.

He needs to use his magic knowledge of eq to find some info on how bow pulling worked though.

I would respect his opinion if he demonstrates he is able to voice it in a respectful and relevant manner.

[radditsu]

I would respect his opinion if he demonstrates he is able to voice it in a respectful and relevant manner.

Ehh its hard to get out of the RNF mode sometimes. His post-count show's he actually gives a crap about the well being of the server. Those 11k post's aren't all trolls.

[Nirgon]

The server I do not give a shit about. Classic EQ, I do.

Nilbog, Kanras, Aeolwind, Ambrotos, Sirken are stand up guys. Rogean OK too but he's gotta be burned out by being involved with the mayhem at this point. I imagine he still enjoys some good EQ server drama/espionage like many of us at times. Maybe he will fill his own + Uthgaard's old dev shoes and get crackin' on Velious.

[Nirgon]

I
He needs to use his magic knowledge of eq to find some info on how bow pulling worked though.

My magic knowledge of EQ is running out of uses as Nilbog/Kanras continue to patch things. I'm very pleased by their progress.

I can't wait till they're ready to address resists / dispel mechanics. We had that banged out in a day on EQC, verified by non-pixel-lusting lovers of classic EQ.

[Nietche]

Insert Shinko's erroneous post on page 11 of this thread here.

I had 95% RA with BDA, hardly a reject. You're the idiot who schmoozed your way into daddy Chest's lap so that you could swarm BDA with your filth (VD), then took off to lead a retarded guild (FE).

[Nietche]

I am not slinging anything at your guild. I have no hard feelings towards TMO. I even said they were in their right by the rules to train in VP.



Confirmed troll.

[kenzar]

I had 95% RA with BDA, hardly a reject.

Weekly planes clears isn't raiding.

[Nietche]

Alright you've sucked me into one more post :D Damn forumquest!

What's funny is I made a post describing precisely how the whole 'you don't want to compete' type thinking is dumb, and then a bunch of people responded with precisely that.



We have 11 guilds on the Sky Rotation; at two tokens each thats 22 raid mobs a week vs 19 currently (17 if you don't count Maestro and Dracoliche) which equates to a 15% increase in raid mobs. It's not like the server would be flooded with bone-clasped girdles. And the number of tokens per guild could always be adjusted down if a lot of the guilds broke up into smaller ones to get more tokens as I expect would happen. Again, my point is that a token system is just as competitive, just not as retarded.



This is precisely the kind of straw man that I am raging about in the original post. Organization and mobilization are about 10% of what it takes to get raid mobs on P1999, with "dedication" being another one of those idiotic code words for 'I sat at my computer hitting track for 40 hours this week'



See if I was a member of Forceful Entry and got up to kill some random pixels at 5AM, I would be pretty unhappy even if we actually got said pixels. Of course I would be really unhappy if I was Sericx. But again, I'm not anti-TMO and never have been. TMO is simply a guild that is designed to beat the current system. Their point that that other guilds can be designed to beat this system is reasonable.

Again, the current raid system is not unfair, just stupid. And with that I'm out for good!

P.S. Sericx, if I were you I'd stop arguing with Kenzar.

Is this the same Sakuragi who was allowed to tag along with TMO-led VP raids to get "grats rot loot?" If so, are we to believe that all this time, while you were collecting rot loot with TMO, you believed that a more equitable, "token system" would be a more egalitarian means of acquiring loot? What exactly does that make you?

No, I don't read your entire post.

[Nietche]

So if you had to choose between variance and all the mobs on the server popping at once, which would you choose?

I think the second choice would get my adrenaline pumping and be more fun, but that's just me.

It would suck for the next 3 days. I prefer having to raid every day, than once every 3 days for a full repop. Yes, it's exciting for those 6-8 hours (depending on whether or not FE is training TMO in VP), but after that...it's alt time.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Is this the same Sakuragi who was allowed to tag along with TMO-led VP raids to get "grats rot loot?" If so, are we to believe that all this time, while you were collecting rot loot with TMO, you believed that a more equitable, "token system" would be a more egalitarian means of acquiring loot? What exactly does that make you?

No, I don't read your entire post.

How is it hypocritical to acknowledge and operate within the reality of the situation while simultaneously believing that it can be improved?

[zanderklocke]

Is this the same Sakuragi who was allowed to tag along with TMO-led VP raids to get "grats rot loot?" If so, are we to believe that all this time, while you were collecting rot loot with TMO, you believed that a more equitable, "token system" would be a more egalitarian means of acquiring loot? What exactly does that make you?

No, I don't read your entire post.

This is the same Sakuragi. Just because he can afford to buy VP rots from TMO doesn't mean he is not interested in a situation that reforms raid rules on the server. Buying gear from TMO and desiring for more people to be able to compete on the server with different rules are not mutually exclusive. In fact, liking or hating/working with or working against TMO and desiring no trains or desiring trains are all possible views/actions that are not mutually exclusive.

Why wouldn't Loraen buy VP rots if he can afford them? The A-Team probably wouldn't even have enough people to do VP even uncontested.

[zanderklocke]

How is it hypocritical to acknowledge and operate within the reality of the situation while simultaneously believing that it can be improved?

Well said.

[Nietche]

How is it hypocritical to acknowledge and operate within the reality of the situation while simultaneously believing that it can be improved?

I like you, Xasten. But if you can't see the hypocrisy in someone being a part of some system--actively--while believing that it is not in the best interests of the server and, furthermore, while casting stones at TMO for using said system to provide him a means to "buy" his gear, then I don't know what to tell you.

It's like the woman who knows that adultery is wrong and who tells her husband he shouldn't be cheating on her, all the while cheating on him herself.

Sakuragi believes (and I daresay did believe all the while) that the current system of acquiring loot is a plague to the server; yet not only scapegoats TMO after the fact (for allowing him to get loot through a non-token based system and supposedly perpetuating said system), but actively acquired loot through a perceived, non-equitable means of acquisition.

Pretty standard forms of hypocrisy in my mind.

[kenzar]

I like you, Xasten. But if you can't see the hypocrisy in someone being a part of some system--actively--while believing that it is not in the best interests of the server and, furthermore, while casting stones at TMO for using said system to provide him a means to "buy" his gear, then I don't know what to tell you.

It's like the woman who knows that adultery is wrong and who tells her husband he shouldn't be cheating on her, all the while cheating on him herself.

Sakuragi believes (and I daresay did believe all the while) that the current system of acquiring loot is a plague to the server; yet not only scapegoats TMO after the fact (for allowing him to get loot through a non-token based system and supposedly perpetuating said system), but actively acquired loot through a perceived, non-equitable means of acquisition.

Pretty standard forms of hypocrisy in my mind.

lolwut, its like you are the best and making the worst analogies

[Ele]

I like you, Xasten. But if you can't see the hypocrisy in someone being a part of some system--actively--while believing that it is not in the best interests of the server and, furthermore, while casting stones at TMO for using said system to provide him a means to "buy" his gear, then I don't know what to tell you.

It's like the woman who knows that adultery is wrong and who tells her husband he shouldn't be cheating on her, all the while cheating on him herself.

Sakuragi believes (and I daresay did believe all the while) that the current system of acquiring loot is a plague to the server; yet not only scapegoats TMO after the fact (for allowing him to get loot through a non-token based system and supposedly perpetuating said system), but actively acquired loot through a perceived, non-equitable means of acquisition.

Pretty standard forms of hypocrisy in my mind.

What should he do then? Stick to his guns and never raid or attempt raiding until tokens are put in place?

[Nietche]

lolwut, its like you are the best and making the worst analogies

Minyin, I thought you jumped off a bridge. What happened to that idea?

[pasi]

I like you, Xasten. But if you can't see the hypocrisy in someone being a part of some system--actively--while believing that it is not in the best interests of the server and, furthermore, while casting stones at TMO for using said system to provide him a means to "buy" his gear, then I don't know what to tell you.

It's like the woman who knows that adultery is wrong and who tells her husband he shouldn't be cheating on her, all the while cheating on him herself.

Sakuragi believes (and I daresay did believe all the while) that the current system of acquiring loot is a plague to the server; yet not only scapegoats TMO after the fact (for allowing him to get loot through a non-token based system and supposedly perpetuating said system), but actively acquired loot through a perceived, non-equitable means of acquisition.

Pretty standard forms of hypocrisy in my mind.

What the fuck did I just read.

[Nietche]

What should he do then? Stick to his guns and never raid or attempt raiding until tokens are put in place?

He should take his loot, nod his head in the general direction of TMO, and then shut the fuck up.

If he is going to white knight a WoW-based system of loot, then yes, Ele; he should have stuck to his guns.

Now he just looks like a greedy asshole, and a hypocrite to boot.

[Aaron]

I like you, Xasten. But if you can't see the hypocrisy in someone being a part of some system--actively--while believing that it is not in the best interests of the server and, furthermore, while casting stones at TMO for using said system to provide him a means to "buy" his gear, then I don't know what to tell you.

It's like the woman who knows that adultery is wrong and who tells her husband he shouldn't be cheating on her, all the while cheating on him herself.

Sakuragi believes (and I daresay did believe all the while) that the current system of acquiring loot is a plague to the server; yet not only scapegoats TMO after the fact (for allowing him to get loot through a non-token based system and supposedly perpetuating said system), but actively acquired loot through a perceived, non-equitable means of acquisition.

Pretty standard forms of hypocrisy in my mind.

lol, this is pretty horrible.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I don't think that the analogy stands. There is no ethical or moral conflict between the two, and this is not a conversation about what is right or wrong; it's about making things better. Participation in a sub-optimal environment does preclude an opinion on how to improve it.

For example, if I felt that the insurance market should be de-regulated so that we can buy across state lines, would it be ethically culpable for me to buy in-state? Again, working within a reality does not preclude efforts to change that reality.

Perhaps if he said that the current environment were disgusting and that he had no interest in supporting it it would be permissible to call him out. As it stands, I believe that he's simply pointing out an option that could make the server a better place in his opinion.

[Sarius]

He should take his loot, nod his head in the general direction of TMO, and then shut the fuck up.

If he is going to white knight a WoW-based system of loot, then yes, Ele; he should have stuck to his guns.

Now he just looks like a greedy asshole, and a hypocrite to boot.

You are a terrible poster. Absolutely does not look like a greedy asshole or hypocrite. Post something constructive or gtfo.

[Ele]

He should take his loot, nod his head in the general direction of TMO, and then shut the fuck up.

If he is going to white knight a WoW-based system of loot, then yes, Ele; he should have stuck to his guns.

Now he just looks like a greedy asshole, and a hypocrite to boot.

We must be using different definitions for "hypocrisy".

Greedy because he paid plat in exchange for goods and services?

Hypocrite because he advocates one system while living another system?

It would be hypocritical if he were to have said, "I will never raid in a system like this" and then raid within that system.

It is hardly hypocritical to criticize the current state of affairs and exist in it, because there is nothing else (besides quitting the server or opting out of raiding entirely), while advocating for another position. Both of those alternate positions would then result in 1) you don't play here, why should we listen to you? and 2) you don't raid, why should we listen to you? It is difficult to effect change within a system from the outside.

[kenzar]

Minyin, I thought you jumped off a bridge. What happened to that idea?

Im unfamiliar with this idea. Would you care to refresh my memory?

[Splorf22]

Is this the same Sakuragi who was allowed to tag along with TMO-led VP raids to get "grats rot loot?" If so, are we to believe that all this time, while you were collecting rot loot with TMO, you believed that a more equitable, "token system" would be a more egalitarian means of acquiring loot? What exactly does that make you?

No, I don't read your entire post.

So you proudly flaunt the fact that you did not, in fact, read anything I wrote while at the same time claiming you understand what I am thinking. If you had read even the title of this thread you would know that I am not concerned about a 'fair' distribution of raid loot as long as the METHOD of the COMPETITION is ENJOYABLE.

[Nietche]

So you proudly flaunt the fact that you did not, in fact, read anything I wrote while at the same time claiming you understand what I am thinking. If you had read even the title of this thread you would know that I am not concerned about a 'fair' distribution of raid loot as long as the METHOD of the COMPETITION is ENJOYABLE.

I enjoy it. Why don't you? After all, you have freebie (as in not earned) loots from end game.

It would be hypocritical if he were to have said, "I will never raid in a system like this" and then raid within that system.

No. That makes him a liar.

[Sarius]

I enjoy it. Why don't you? After all, you have freebie (as in not earned) loots from end game.

He's stated about twenty times that pixels are not the same thing as enjoyment. You are proving to be more and more of an idiot troll with every post. Keep up the good work!

[Tiggles]

I find the current raid scene enjoyable


Being in the Top guild and getting the lionshare of content while lording it over the masses who get SO ANGRY that they post tears on the forums.

I'm not kidding that is fun to me, Killing Trakanon in front of another guild and listen to them rage is enjoyable to me.

Any chance in raid rules would make the game LESS enjoyable to me.

Who are you to make this game less fun for me?

[Halfelfbard]

http://awesomelyluvvie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/sleeingpatrick-150x150.gif
durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[contemptor]

I find the current raid scene enjoyable


Being in the Top guild and getting the lionshare of content while lording it over the masses who get SO ANGRY that they post tears on the forums.

I'm not kidding that is fun to me, Killing Trakanon in front of another guild and listen to them rage is enjoyable to me.

Any chance in raid rules would make the game LESS enjoyable to me.

Who are you to make this game less fun for me?
Over/Under on Tiggles being picked last for every sport in k-12?

[t0lkien]

I find the current raid scene enjoyable


Being in the Top guild and getting the lionshare of content while lording it over the masses who get SO ANGRY that they post tears on the forums.

I'm not kidding that is fun to me, Killing Trakanon in front of another guild and listen to them rage is enjoyable to me.

Any chance in raid rules would make the game LESS enjoyable to me.

Who are you to make this game less fun for me?

Only on the internet and quite possibly in online games communities would any of these qualities be openly paraded and held up as reasonable. And that's all I'm going to say about that.

[Tuljin]

Enable PvP in raid zones

[Splorf22]

I enjoy it. Why don't you? After all, you have freebie (as in not earned) loots from end game. No. That makes him a liar.

The past two pages have been filled with numerous different people criticizing your miserable reading comprehension, your poor analogies, your misuse of english words, your poor logic, and your overall lack of information about the situation. How about you leave this thread before you provide even more evidence that you are a member of the vegetable kingdom?

[Nietche]

Enable PvP in raid zones

[Droog007]

If TMO didn't have a monopoly on VP how would purchased all your gear like you do now?

At lower prices due to competition? /boggle

[Gadwen]

Only on the internet and quite possibly in online games communities would any of these qualities be openly paraded and held up as reasonable. And that's all I'm going to say about that.

Thanks a lot RNF.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

If anything FTE helps non zerg guilds... else a zerg guild will KS you every time... as they have... zerg dps....

well, no, it actually just makes 6 wizards the best raiders in the game :P nuke n scoot.

[xexbis0]

Only on the internet and quite possibly in online games communities would any of these qualities be openly paraded and held up as reasonable. And that's all I'm going to say about that.

Perfectly said.

[Orruar]

Only on the internet and quite possibly in online games communities would any of these qualities be openly paraded and held up as reasonable. And that's all I'm going to say about that.

And even then, most of us feel nothing but pity for someone who is proud of having such qualities. Life must be miserable for some, so give them their ounce of glory to help ease the pain.

[Nirgon]

Show of hands who wants to watch and referee plane of fear and VP raids that start by getting out of bed at 3am/coming home from work and then lasting for several hours? Every week. For free. No pixels.

[Noselacri]

Tried to fight this fight several times, but it's an exercise in futility because there's enough simpletons on P99 who think saying "deal with it" and "cry moar" makes them cool people, and/or who desire to keep most players out of the endgame in order to remain part of the elite, so the problem is never fixed. The admins don't seem to want to acknowledge the issue, either. It's a pity, because it has always been by far the biggest problem and the one elephant in the room that keeps this server from being truly great. It's also the cause of countless other problems, such as the widespread RMTing which takes place largely because it's the only way for most players to "progress" since there simply isn't room for more swinging dicks in the raid scene.

This situation isn't classic -- in fact it's precisely a product of an overwhelmingly unclassic factor: there's only one server and no solution to the fact that it has like five servers worth of would-be endgame players. The problem is expressly a consequence of it being an emulated server instead of classic live EQ, but it's somehow defended as a feature of classic EQ. It makes no sense and it's such a blemish on the server, its main failing and the root of very nearly every other problem that plagues it. What a joke, really. Horrible mismanagement of what could have been the perfect Everquest experience for thousands of players.

[Nirgon]

You know Platlord was caught and banned? Widespread RMTing? More like under the table shit here and there that you couldn't find out about no matter what you did. It's not a huge issue anymore, I don't think.

The raid scene wasn't designed to support thousands, this timeline is the problem with that. Velious will alleviate but not solve this problem.

[falkun]

Enable PvP in raid zones
And yet when BDA proposed a red week there were like 5 TMO that participated? Zilo, Sericx, a few others, and you weren't among them? You sure love to open your mouth and back it up with a massive pile of nothing.

[Noselacri]

The raid scene wasn't designed to support thousands

Everquest was not designed to have one server. Failing to account for this when emulating Everquest will lead to the problems at hand.

I have yet to hear any argument based in sound reason that supports the current situation. It's always ignorance of the cause of it and/or conscious desire to deprive other players of access to gameplay.

If this were classic Everquest, people could move to a different server with room in the raid scene, and new servers would open up when the older ones got too crowded. When you don't provide this option or an alternative that sufficiently simulates it, you create these problems and make the server very unclassic.

Defending that is a declaration of idiocy.

[Nikon]

You know Platlord was caught and banned? Widespread RMTing? More like under the table shit here and there that you couldn't find out about no matter what you did. It's not a huge issue anymore, I don't think.

Honestly, this is wrong. Platlord's site is back up to selling project1999 plat and items and there are other resources if you follow the breadcrumb trail. It was only suppressed temporarily. You don't think now that the DDoS and 'duping' fire has fizzled, things won't go right back to how they were? With that many posts, I would think you would know better.

[heartbrand]

There's not enough content to be consumed so this will always be a problem. In the interim if you are sick of being cock blocked, red has a 200% EXP bonus as well as scaling EXP bonus and no variance. I'll never understand why an entire blue guild just doesn't move over together, pop begets more pop etc. If two or three guilds did this you'd see 400+ on red in no time.

[Noselacri]

There's not enough content to be consumed so this will always be a problem. In the interim if you are sick of being cock blocked, red has a 200% EXP bonus as well as scaling EXP bonus and no variance. I'll never understand why an entire blue guild just doesn't move over together, pop begets more pop etc. If two or three guilds did this you'd see 400+ on red in no time.

Because Everquest has some of the worst PvP in gaming history?

[Tasslehofp99]

Honestly, this is wrong. Platlord's site is back up to selling project1999 plat and items and there are other resources if you follow the breadcrumb trail. It was only suppressed temporarily. You don't think now that the DDoS and 'duping' fire has fizzled, things won't go right back to how they were? With that many posts, I would think you would know better.

Doesn't surprise me.

[Nirgon]

Honestly, this is wrong. Platlord's site is back up to selling project1999 plat and items and there are other resources if you follow the breadcrumb trail. It was only suppressed temporarily. You don't think now that the DDoS and 'duping' fire has fizzled, things won't go right back to how they were? With that many posts, I would think you would know better.

So where's he getting his prenerf fungi sticks from? iirc 3 went down the tubes, along with many other items that cannot be replaced. If he's selling those again, look for trades involving them. Should be easy to catch.

I'm unsure if he is at full capacity again or what is listed on his site, I do not visit it. Posting here does not help me determine that.

[Nikon]

I'm unsure if he is at full capacity again or what is listed on his site, I do not visit it. Posting here does not help me determine that.

While I'm sure they are currently working at a diminished capacity, my guess is that him and his team are working diligently to resupply. I know for a while people were posting that he took P99 off his site, but a quick search shows it is back again. I applaud the GMs for their effort to stop him. I wish there was more they could do. It's a silly cat and mouse game.

[timhutton]

While I'm sure they are currently working at a diminished capacity, my guess is that him and his team are working diligently to resupply. I know for a while people were posting that he took P99 off his site, but a quick search shows it is back again. I applaud the GMs for their effort to stop him. I wish there was more they could do. It's a silly cat and mouse game.

Item's are also beginning to show up on Platlord's list of things to sell.. and even worse than Platlord, there was a post on another forum(with colorful name) that indicated a big seller from live that sells on every server was also getting involved in the show.

[Nirgon]

Well, obviously SoE recognized Rogean and project 1999 (unless he just signed up as that on the ticket for "for show" purposes), so they don't care or care as much about what he's doing.

However.

People making money off this server would probably be of interest to them. Maybe he should catch them/reveal their identity and hand them over to SoE. The threat of that should be enough, I'd think.

[Fountree]

What ^ said ...

There's nothing classic about the entire server having the ability to raid VP. We've just gotten to the point where that's possible because of the extended content timeline. At the same time, we have to remember that nothing is stopping other guilds from raiding this zone. TMO is subject to the current ruleset and the trains just like everyone else.

[Sarius]

The point is that training is a dumb rule and should not be allowed in any zone, period.

[Elizabetha]

There's nothing classic about the entire server having the ability to raid VP.

I love it.

[Orruar]

Look, the bottom line here is that this is a people problem, not a rules problem.

The rules greatly influence both the type of people who will thrive in the environment and the actions of the people.

[spoils]

miss u orruar

[radditsu]

231,000 search results for Veeshan's Peak training, and not one hit about being trained in Veeshan's peak.

[Nirgon]

If people still need BCGs after all this time, you guys are going to have a long wait ahead of you until they are done farming Crown of Riles.

Might I suggest a cool iced tea and enjoying a warm summer day with your pixel rage?

[Sarius]

It has been well-established that the "training" that happens in VP is largely due to pathing problems in the zone.

If you want those pixels badly enough to out-TMO TMO then part of doing so involves a design to achieve results without being derailed and giving up because TMO's pull trained you regardless of whether it was intentional or purely due to bad pathing.

If you can't handle someone working the system to their advantage over you, become better. Maybe that means working a different angle. Maybe that means being more of an asshole. Maybe that means being capable of surviving that train and continuing on to your target.

Second place is the best loser. If you're in a guild that wants to do VP and you're complaining on the forums then you want your pixels but you don't want it badly enough to do what it takes to achieve that goal. Either give up or do better. Nothing will be solved by complaining about how little fun it is for you to not be good enough to do what you want to do.

Shit's classic.

That said, I come from emarr where Da`Kor/MS/MF started a rotation/calendar setup. I thought it was a good idea there, but p99 isn't emarr. There are far too many, "well FUCK them" posts from members of guilds on all sides of the argument. I doubt all parties would stick to the agreements. Furthermore, what settled it for me was when I heard someone from TMO state that a rotation would be worth considering if not for them having a scheduled wait for another guild to fail before TMO cleans up anyway.

This brings me right back to my original point: get better and stop complaining.

You're either ignorant to what is going on or just plain stupid. Can't decide which.

[Nietche]

And yet when BDA proposed a red week there were like 5 TMO that participated? Zilo, Sericx, a few others, and you weren't among them? You sure love to open your mouth and back it up with a massive pile of nothing.

Is this the same post you answered with 2 weeks ago? You know, the one, where you bashed FE and IB in about the same thing? Gaffin might remember.

For the record, I don't remember this proposal being made.

P.S. Who are you again?

[Sarius]

Say something productive. I dare you.

Lol and you are? "Get better, qq less!"

Skill has nothing to do with the current raid scene. Pathing accounts for a small portion of VP training. Confirmed idiot, not ignorant.

[Sirken]

was a good thread until it turned into nothing but turd slinging.