EQNext Discussion

[Razdeline]

Sorry, I came off too harsh on you. And you have some good points. But to me the Video was just a TOTAL letdown. It just looks like WoW on Warp Drive. No way in hell am I going to play some game with lighting bolts, and fire, and dirt clods, smoke, etc, going all over hell and and back. And toons with weapons and shoulder pads bigger than they are running around like Ninja's.

That stuff appeals to 12 year old kids. But guess what, when EQ first came out most people playing it were 12 year old kids. I can sort of see why they have taken the same route. Its all about the MONEY.

Yeah we'll see what happens with whatever is revealed next. Hoping it has something to do with their immersive philosophy, but who knows. In the end its all a machine exploiting peoples hearts and minds to take that $$$

[Weekapaug]

It looks cool and has decent ideas going for it but its way too far off the path to even come close to Original EQ1

Thought the same thing. I'll play it for sure, but looks like Everquest II 2 more than "going back to the original game" like they said they were doing way back when.

And I couldn't help but think the characters looked rather wow-like, but I think the vah shir was a bad choice and accentuated that a bit...Non human chars are going to look cartoony. I would have liked to have seen a human in full plate armor to get a feel for the char graphics a bit better.

I did like the armor graphics with the animations in the wind and the environment looks great. I just hope it plays more like EQ than like diablo, though, because that's kind of what it looked like to me. Doesn't have to literally be like EQ, but have some depth to the combat dynamic, not just a button mash fest twich game like most MMOs are, including EQ2.

[Razdeline]

Thought the same thing. I'll play it for sure, but looks like Everquest II 2 more than "going back to the original game" like they said they were doing way back when.

And I couldn't help but think the characters looked rather wow-like, but I think the vah shir was a bad choice and accentuated that a bit...Non human chars are going to look cartoony. I would have liked to have seen a human in full plate armor to get a feel for the char graphics a bit better.

I did like the armor graphics with the animations in the wind and the environment looks great. I just hope it plays more like EQ than like diablo, though, because that's kind of what it looked like to me. Doesn't have to literally be like EQ, but have some depth to the combat dynamic, not just a button mash fest twich game like most MMOs are, including EQ2.

I'll probably play it even if it's bad because I am a giant pussy.

[Champion_Standing]

That part in the presentation really got to me when he was talking about the "parcour" like world travel (aside from the awful notion of implementing double jumping). "Oh and by the way folks you don't have to press any extra buttons to jump over these objects... the game does it for you!" LoL :confused:

Unfortunately I think this is where the majority of EQNs "innovation" will be. Things that have been in a thousand other games, just not in MMORPGs.

They still don't get it.

[Zanti]

I would have liked to have seen a human in full plate armor to get a feel for the char graphics a bit better.


They showed concept art for it... standard over proportioned bulky plate with the shoulder pads being the most prominent and distinctive feature as far as variety goes.

[Champion_Standing]

They showed concept art for it... standard over proportioned bulky plate with the shoulder pads being the most prominent and distinctive feature as far as variety goes.

And bracers that are bigger than your entire arm I hope!

[Weekapaug]

Not naming names, but it also astounds me the things people will nitpick and poo poo about a game they've never played before.

Gameplay issues? Legit concern. Cash store? Legit concern. But oh noes! There's realistic dust and debris flying around! This game is going to suck....There's double jumping!

People kill me sometimes. The chat spam on the feed was priceless. Dude could have said "The sky is blue" and 25 people would have some comment about it and another 30 would say how stating that the sky is blue is a deal breaker for them, no way they are going to play it. LOL

Hate to break it to everyone, but there will be new graphics and features in new games. No one has any clue how this game will play until they play it.

All of that said....My heart sank during EQ2 beta. But I was stoked till then!

[Rhuma7]

From what I saw of twitch chat there were clearly people that were jizzing themselves on what they saw.

There was also a definite group of people(majority) that saw it as dog shit.

This game will be shit and I will tell you why.

Trying to reinvent the wheel is always a bad idea. Filling your game with gimmicks is not going to make your game any more fun after the 500th time you've done it.

You might think what you saw was awesome and it certainly has seen a lot of work, the sun/moon lighting changes are definitely something thats cool but after a couple hours playing you're not going to give a shit.

The dumbing down of combat can be blamed for pushing for the console market which is stupid if you're marketing your game to your playerbase consisting of nothing but COMPUTER GAMERS!

It really looks like they went full retard with the voxel based gaming and tried to incorporate an MMO into the minecraft world, which sounds pretty cool but at the same time you need to really focus on the MMO side of things.

People forget that WoW was the offspring of EQ1 and it was successful for a few reasons.

The biggest reason is they fixed some problems that were inherent in EQ1 with raid content and that EQ never took into consideration that you actually played with other people (lol) and that not every person on the server was able to partake in end game raids and that there would always be someone left out. Instancing was a fix for this problem and I feel was directly influenced by Furor and Tigole's experience being in bleeding edge raiding while at the same time were very wise and looked at what their success was doing to the rest of the server.

Unfortunately, they didn't really fix all of the problems which is what WoW AND curent everquest1 is facing now. MMOs in their current state are a disease on themselves, with the constant need for new content to keep the subs going from month to month. It will eventually lead to massive bloat and from what I saw, the complete rehaul of gear from expansion to expansion was to combat this issue, by simply making it un-needed to progress through 5 expansions and literally years of raiding to even get to the stuff that matters. We all have our opinions on that and im sure we can all come up with our own theories of what could have been done. I personally agree with sirken(We had talked about this in his twitch a few days ago) That MMOs really need to keep their content fresh, by reusing old zones instead of adding 30-40 every expansion.

SOE is going to fail with EQnext simply because their trying something new... It is a real shame but their doing it for the greater good, to put forth newer ideas and to give... up and coming developers a chance to see what works and what doesn't, so they can take the ideas and make it better for the next generation of MMOs.

Minecraft the MMO isn't what we need right now. We just need a fresh new world with the same tried and true mechanics with a few fixes for the long-term player.


For those who don't want to read the wall of text, MMOs need a solid core of content, with very little gimmicks to sell their shit. A good product sells itself as any salesman will tell you. WoW isn't some revelation of the MMO, it was just a very solid game with a few fixes from Everquest. I haven't seen anything from EQnext that is trying to fix the inherent problems in MMOs. Just a lot of gimmicks.

[Weekapaug]

They showed concept art for it... standard over proportioned bulky plate with the shoulder pads being the most prominent and distinctive feature as far as variety goes.

I never go by concept art.

[Thulack]

I never go by concept art.

Well that concept art is the way some models look like on live basically with the Players studio's armor. For people that dont know you can buy "skins" for your toons armors on live. Most of it looks large and disproportionate like the concept art for EQNext

[Vaildez]

We really don't know yet what the combat will actually be like... but from what they were describing it sounded very much like GW2 which IMO has the best combat of any current MMO.

[Zanti]

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and I would love it if the managed to create something that has meaningful gameplay beyond running around as a demi god till you get bored. But they sure don't make it easy.

It would be nice if a MMO developer would, for once just come out and clearly define what it is that they are going to do and why with their core mechanics. Instead every time something new comes out it's like they feel the need to put one over on everyone either by being as obscure or misleading as possible to get more sales. They know that these games don't do well but they apparently don't know why.

WTB a niche game that knows what it wants to accomplish and how to do so.

[Weekapaug]

From what I saw of twitch chat there were clearly people that were jizzing themselves on what they saw.

There was also a definite group of people(majority) that saw it as dog shit.

This game will be shit and I will tell you why.

Trying to reinvent the wheel is always a bad idea. Filling your game with gimmicks is not going to make your game any more fun after the 500th time you've done it.

You might think what you saw was awesome and it certainly has seen a lot of work, the sun/moon lighting changes are definitely something thats cool but after a couple hours playing you're not going to give a shit.

The dumbing down of combat can be blamed for pushing for the console market which is stupid if you're marketing your game to your playerbase consisting of nothing but COMPUTER GAMERS!

It really looks like they went full retard with the voxel based gaming and tried to incorporate an MMO into the minecraft world, which sounds pretty cool but at the same time you need to really focus on the MMO side of things.

People forget that WoW was the offspring of EQ1 and it was successful for a few reasons.

The biggest reason is they fixed some problems that were inherent in EQ1 with raid content and that EQ never took into consideration that you actually played with other people (lol) and that not every person on the server was able to partake in end game raids and that there would always be someone left out. Instancing was a fix for this problem and I feel was directly influenced by Furor and Tigole's experience being in bleeding edge raiding while at the same time were very wise and looked at what their success was doing to the rest of the server.

Unfortunately, they didn't really fix all of the problems which is what WoW AND curent everquest1 is facing now. MMOs in their current state are a disease on themselves, with the constant need for new content to keep the subs going from month to month. It will eventually lead to massive bloat and from what I saw, the complete rehaul of gear from expansion to expansion was to combat this issue, by simply making it un-needed to progress through 5 expansions and literally years of raiding to even get to the stuff that matters. We all have our opinions on that and im sure we can all come up with our own theories of what could have been done. I personally agree with sirken(We had talked about this in his twitch a few days ago) That MMOs really need to keep their content fresh, by reusing old zones instead of adding 30-40 every expansion.

SOE is going to fail with EQnext simply because their trying something new... It is a real shame but their doing it for the greater good, to put forth newer ideas and to give... up and coming developers a chance to see what works and what doesn't, so they can take the ideas and make it better for the next generation of MMOs.

Minecraft the MMO isn't what we need right now. We just need a fresh new world with the same tried and true mechanics with a few fixes for the long-term player.


For those who don't want to read the wall of text, MMOs need a solid core of content, with very little gimmicks to sell their shit. A good product sells itself as any salesman will tell you. WoW isn't some revelation of the MMO, it was just a very solid game with a few fixes from Everquest. I haven't seen anything from EQnext that is trying to fix the inherent problems in MMOs. Just a lot of gimmicks.

Excellent points. Except you have no idea how the game will actually play, what the actual combat dynamic will be, death penalty, how raiding will go, etc etc. You can't make these kinds of determinations based on watching what we did today. The vast majority of what we saw was about graphics and the dynamic world. That's what's new. You have zero idea what will be new or old in the actual gameplay. Just assumptions.

The world builder is being released as a separate game. I really don't know how that makes EverQuest Next "mmo minecraft" when you aren't even talking about EverQuest Next. It's a separate game that most people probably wont even play. I really don't know how that translates to anything you said.

BUT if I had to bet the farm, you are probably right. It just annoys me to no end when people make snap assumptions about games that no one has even played yet based on the first presentation...In this case, basicly, just of what the world and 2 toons look like. They are attempting to break new ground into having a truly dynamic environment. That has exactly nothing to do with what the gameplay will be like with combat, raiding, etc. Not to mention, you simultaneously say that this game will fail, as if you know this, after just stating that the problem with MMOs is that they constantly expand new content rather than improve existing areas.....Isn't that precisely what this dynamic world concept they are going with will do? /boggle

It's day one and we saw nothing that would answer any of the issues you bring up, one way or another. I think people just bitch to bitch at times like this. No matter how much you or I don't like it, they simply are not going to redo original EQ with the same formula. For a million reasons, but they just aren't. But that doesn't mean that a new game that you or I choose to play or not is "going to fail," as you state.

And if you want to call a player/event changable dynamic world that goes so far as to impact mob behavior and populations, not to mention layers and layers of content possible underground etc, which can be designed by players if they so choose, "a gimmick" that's up to you. I call it groundbreaking and worth having a good, albeit cautious, look at when it becomes available.

I'm pretty sure in '97 or '98 there were top-down view rpg gamers calling putting a first person view on EverQuest a "gimmick" since pretty much only shooters had it up to that point. Where would we be now if the people who make games actually listened, eh?

[kaev]

Looks like ass. Why would I want to play PixelQuest:ThePreteenCartoonJunkieEdition? Oh, that's right, I don't. Seriously, even if I could somehow get past the bullshit shoulderpads bullshit... multiclassing??? really???

It's like they said, "Hey guys. I've been thinking. The only things Vanguard didn't fuck up to a fare-thee-well were costuming and class design, let's go for it!"

[Ephirith]

You cynics are too late, Smedley's balls are already lodged firmly in my mouth and I'm going to be championing this stupendous creation until it dies, three months after release.

[Weekapaug]

Oh and for the record, I thought what we saw today looked great. Will it be? No way to tell.

For me, the deal sealer or breaker is how the combat dynamic feels. It's why original EQ and DAoC are the only two MMOs I've truly always loved. All other's have failed, although Vanguard isn't too bad with it. EQ2 and WoW both had a soft "fly by wire" feel that I can't deal with.

And until I actually experience that myself, all judgements as to the quality of the game are reserved and I, for one, will keep an open mind about it.

Nothing wrong with being skeptical or having an opinion, but Jesus H. It's day one. Cut them a little slack, considering none of us really still know anything about the game.

[Kimmie]

Whats so hard about literally remaking eq1.....

[Rhuma7]

The vast majority of what we saw was about graphics and the dynamic world. That's what's new. You have zero idea what will be new or old in the actual gameplay. Just assumptions.

In this case, basicly, just of what the world and 2 toons look like. They are attempting to break new ground into having a truly dynamic environment.

It's day one and we saw nothing that would answer any of the issues you bring up, one way or another.


It's all about time and resources. They have put a retarded amount of effort into what was shown and you heard it yourself although it was subtle... They at this moment are writing the lore for the game, so all the actual content, the day to day shit people are actually going to do in the game, are in the alpha stages.


The game is due to release in 6 months? I didn't actually hear this myself if there was even a clear timeframe for the release but that doesn't bode well.

For me personally, I don't need to see A to Z of a game to see if it is going to be the next coming of jesus to the MMO market.

They have spent far too much time working on the world and the way it works instead of putting their grand amount of resources into making the world flush with content.

There's already a game out that has almost all of their "holy grails" its called Cube world.

Basically, if you have followed MMOs for the past decade like I have, you have seen that the new business model is to get the game playable and put in content after launch. I, personally, dont want that shit and it leads to players feeling ripped off and bored. Source: Rift.

EDIT: Then you have games like vanguard that are BARELY even playable with no balancing or any sort of polish due to unrealistic timelines.

[Masq]

We really don't know yet what the combat will actually be like... but from what they were describing it sounded very much like GW2 which IMO has the best combat of any current MMO.

if by best, you mean worst.

I agree fully

[Weekapaug]

I have, for going on 15 years, actually. And I agree with you about Rift. All these new games, really, and I include EQ2 and WoW in that. It's why I'm here. Again, not that I wouldn't agree with you if I had to bet....But I don't, and everything you are saying are assumptions based on virtually no real information.

We got a cursory overview of the world and a first look at the game environment today....and 2 toons. That's it. They introduced the concept of what they are going for with classes, but offered no real info. They showed no UI. No gameplay other than just to see what the fight animations look like. Concepts of itemization, but that's it. No real info on the storyline, what cities will be available, levels, or anything else. NOTHING that constitutes the meat of how any MMO actually plays.

And I'm not aware of how much time is too much time spent on what and frankly, neither are you. It's their game....Let them develop it and judge it when it gets released, or at least when you actually PLAY the beta. When there is a lack of content to your liking THEN say that, but you are just making assumptions and stating them as facts.

Vanguard is a bad example. It got fucked by Microsoft at the final stage of it's development and released under precarious circumstances. The game literally changed hands just before release and was kicked out the door. The rug was literally pulled out from under its feet at the worst possible time. The EverQuest franchise has been with Sony for well over a decade and is it's flagship MMO series. I would like to think they learned a lesson with EQ2. It would be hard to imagine they didn't.

It's day one. How about giving them the benefit of the doubt before making sweeping conclusions about something you really know nothing about. None of us do.

[Breeziyo]

What's so hard about literally remaking EQ?

Probably not much, but companies have to make money with their products and there's a definite reason as to why only about a thousand players are on P99. We're part of a very small minority. Not a lot of people would want to just play EQ1 on the Planetside 2 engine, and many people who did would immediately realize all of the shortcomings that this game has.

[Barrier]

I may be in the minority, but go to The Steel Warrior and look at some of the articles about damage and how warriors mitigated it. That to me was EQ.

All these abilities like whirlwind and charge and all that crap, bring it down. I want combat where the math nerds sit all day and parse damage and come up with all sorts of formulae on how damage works.

[webrunner5]

Looks like ass. Why would I want to play PixelQuest:ThePreteenCartoonJunkieEdition? Oh, that's right, I don't. Seriously, even if I could somehow get past the bullshit shoulderpads bullshit... multiclassing??? really???

It's like they said, "Hey guys. I've been thinking. The only things Vanguard didn't fuck up to a fare-thee-well were costuming and class design, let's go for it!"

You hit the nail on the head. If I was 10 years old, well maybe. I am WAY past that age thank you. Just looks like Saturday morning Cartoons. They have totally went for the money. Threw EQ1 people under the bus.

Nilbog is a VERY happy person today. He had a vision, and a very good vision.

[Vaildez]

if by best, you mean worst.

I agree fully

Soo what game has the best combat then? Button mashing EQ2? Press a butto every 3 seconds EQ? Dance Dance Revolution WoW? GW2 actually had elements like dodging that requires skill...

[SamwiseRed]

funny how people are complaining are about graphics, wow players say that about eq1. lets quit concentrating on the asethetics, which we can all agree mean nothing since we play a 14 year old game, and complain/critique the gameplay. u cant expect them to just "update" the eq 1 models. what are you wanting a classic eq with new graphics? look how well that worked out for luclin.

[formallydickman]

meh, bleh, sigh..

[Barrier]

Smedleys pic they showed looked nothing like him today haha. He had hair, and weighed 50 lbs less

He looked like he swallowed an ogre.

[radditsu]

WTB a niche game that knows what it wants to accomplish and how to do so.

Dark souls.

[SamwiseRed]

Dark souls.

minecraft as well

[Scavrefamn]

Whats so hard about literally remaking eq1.....

[Barrier]

I mentioned it on the thread in off topic, and I'll mention it here, too. Combat is the end-all be-all for me. EQ1 might not have been rocket science, but any game that will put math nerds going at it for days and weeks parsing out all things such as damage mitigation, proc rates, hate generation, etc., as discussed like it was on The Steel Warrior, that was the game for me.

Abilities and whirlwinds and stuff, just does not really do it for me, even as superficial a level as we got to see. If you noticed, the low level mobs weren't fighting, but the higher single mobs were fighting. Those honey whatevers were just standing in ranks for the warrior to do his jump splash attack.

[Cyrano]

I personally thought the whole thing looked amazing and is incredibly ambitious. The fighting system seems set up to work across platforms with controllers, basically what I saw was an MMO that plays like a console game which I'm cool with. I like the idea of an evolving history based on player interactions and getting to part of that from day 1 is something I can get behind. Are the graphics and mechanics campy? Sure but it's a fucking fantasy game, if you want realistic anatomy go play a shooter.

There was nothing I disliked in that launch. It's not EQ but you guys will never get that again. That doesn't mean you can't still make new memories and have a great time playing another MMO. If they can keep it from being buggy and exploitable you might have a new #1 MMO in the distant future.

Also, being able to remove the bridge was one of the coolest things I've seen in an MMO bar none. If you'd rather med and spam the same spell over and over at a static spawn point to that type of combat then you're fucking weird.

My one concern is how raiding fits into this concept. Since they removed levels but instead use a skill tree system (w/o levels?) you'll still see player specializing I suppose. Also, why no view of the UI?

[timhutton]

Honestly couldn't care less about combat in games any more. I'm tired of killing stuff. I like building stuff, though. Just goes to show I had enough Gi Joes and Transformers and He-Man action-figures as a kid but not enough doll-houses. Anyway, I watched about two minutes of the presentation and had to turn it off because that dude with the pony-tail just flat-out depressed me. Is that what we gamers are become? He looked like a frumpy lesbian who'd suffered a double-mastectomy.

LOL.

Glad I wasn't the only one thinking that.

[Breeziyo]

My one concern is how raiding fits into this concept. Since they removed levels but instead use a skill tree system (w/o levels?) you'll still see player specializing I suppose.

Smedley has apparently been playing quite a lot of EVE for ideas and inspiration regarding EQNext. I would assume it will be a similar system to it where you'll be able to train certain skills for a long time to become extremely specialized in a single role. I haven't played EVE, but have some friends who do. Whenever I sit in on them playing it seems like that might be the kind of system in place for that game. I'll have to ask them how it works next time I talk to them.

[Breeziyo]

I want combat where the math nerds sit all day and parse damage and come up with all sorts of formulae on how damage works.

They already do that with pretty much every MMO out there. One thing that comes to mind is WoW's fansite "Elitist Jerks".

The only thing that changes is instead of figuring out how to auto attack the best you figure out how to incorporate skills into your damage as well.

[Cyrano]

I may be in the minority, but go to The Steel Warrior and look at some of the articles about damage and how warriors mitigated it. That to me was EQ.

All these abilities like whirlwind and charge and all that crap, bring it down. I want combat where the math nerds sit all day and parse damage and come up with all sorts of formulae on how damage works.

That existed in WoW. You had abilities, in fact warriors had whirlwind, yet there was still lots of parsing involved at the high end to break down what worked best.

I think it looked great, still has lots of work to be done but I'm excited to return to norrath.

A big difference today from back then is that there are too many hardcore gamers who just destroy content (that mindset was first developed in EQ) and the spread of MMO information is too great. Back in the day forums and allakhazam were basically it, now each game has its own wiki before release. Beta players explain everything to their friends and the information quickly trickles down into guides and videos, I mean shit people created a mod in WoW that showed you exactly how to do quests and gave you a check list/organizer to keep it in order. That wasn't the developers originally it was from players.

While lots of us like to think that our little pocket of MMO players on P99 are deserving of some ultra difficult game where mistakes can equal hours of lost time, we need to admit that unless we create it ourselves (just like Nilbog recreating EQ) it's never going to happen. No one is going to make a game that caters to this crowd, they can eat from the subscriptions none of play. Couple that with the way everyone complains about the "pay to win" model and how the fuck are they supposed to pay for anything off the P99 culture?

You guys want a ramped up EQ Classic? Make it yourselves. I've played this game 10 years ago. I killed AoW, Vulak, and ogre walled Tunare. I love the competition, I loved the very real rush that came from killing a mob the 1st time with rival guilds breathing down your neck. I loved the way players became legends on my server and how rivalries formed, players switched sides, and deals were struck behind the scenes. I hated that another guild released the sleeper right after I got my key. That shit was awesome, but it's gone. P99 will never recreate that because you can't expect a game to have an expansion once every 3 years and still keep the best players. All we get is an initial rush of hardcores rolling through content then getting tired and going to play something else. Velious will be fun, but it will lose its allure after a few months just like Kunark did. EQ Next at least promises something new that we've never experienced before. That video made me want to play an INT caster for the first time in my life.

[SpartanEQ]

All I can say with certainty right now is that it's not what I expected to see. I'm not going to get riled up about a partial "reveal," or any game for that matter. Either I'll play it or I won't.

The big armor, AoE rings, and BLAMO effects worry me a bit, and I'll withhold judgement on the multi-classing thing. I do like the look and feel of the terrain though, and even though I doubt I'll spend much time on it, the world builder is something I can see many people enjoying.

If they make it into something I don't like they are probably doing me a favor anyway. We'll see.

[Gwence]

most interesting idea that was brought up was the permanent change and rallying call thing

to me that sounds like it could be really cool



rest of it was bleh, kerran looked pretty dumb and whirlwind? really? is this diablo or eq?

multi-classes Im not a fan of, but to early to knock it completely imo

guess I'll wait and see as more things become available, initial thoughts remain skeptical at best though.

[Sloth]

why do the whiney ones try to convince everyone else the game sucks? just play it if you want and make your own judgement

[webrunner5]

Because the game will suck Whale Shit is why. They are just out to make money, not make a good game. It is geared towards kids. If Sony gave a shit they would not have all the stupid as hell Armour that you can buy now. They want your F'ing money. It is ALL about money.

Oh yeah, you will be able to build a house anywhere you want. And guess the hell what. They will be WILLING to sell you online with your Visa Card a picture to hang on the wall. Oh, you want a birdbath in the yard, a fence, a sofa inside. Need I go on. It will be the same old crap over again. Mark my word. We have all waited for years for a game that is just going to be a glorified WoW.

[Laugher]

but really, I'd accept this as new freeport:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbuFAODiHhc

lol, but personally I think new graphics just throw me off for whatever reason. Call it WoW syndrome :p I'm sure I'll give it a try at some pt, appd for beta before I got home n saw the youtube today

[t0lkien]

EverQuest was/is epic. Nothing about EQN appears or feels epic (with a proviso below). They have gone for technological "advances" without any of the broad unifying sweeps of the original EQ. Notice how no-one cheered at the concept art or flybys until they were asked to do so? It's because we've all seen it before. It's all tight, small, and intensely detailed while looking careful controlled and contrived - just like every other modern console shooter. The style? How much more like Blizzard/Warhammer can everyone go and keep a straight face about it. Really, it's perplexing. Good grief, even the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight games from 10+ years ago felt more epic than this.

The multi-class thing? This was all tried and failed in paper systems before computer games existed. The only game to get it anywhere near right was Daggerfall/Obsidian franchise, and it was/is a *single player game*. Anyone building a new RPG should at least be aware of what has gone before it so it doesn't try to go down all the already disproven dry gullies that looked good initially but didn't work in the end. Class distinction is lost when you can be anything. The gameplay as a result is blurred and unsatisfying. Limitations are what makes great gameplay, not the lack of them. RPGing 101. And anyway, as has been said, everyone will figure out the optimal build and use it. Remember D3's "billions of builds"? Yeah. I'm wondering how many times this lesson has to be learned.

The animation system is nice. I don't mind the touches of Disney in the character facials. But these things do not make a game. We are here playing a 15 year old square-limbed game because it looks great, right? Gameplay. Gameplay is king. That does not mean a Diablo-esque combat system with lots of noise and action, and single player focus. Destructibility - the only way this can work in an MMO is where everything is instanced (so the world doesn't end up a pile of ash within the first day). Goodbye MMO; hello MO.

The usual journalistic sycophantism aside, even the crowd was underwhelmed. It's a mish-mash of secondhand ideas and "cool tech" thrown together. It's a game built around potential "tent pegs" of hyperbole and marketing, and hyped into absurdity before even this small reveal. What they did show was carefully constructed tech demos, nothing more. Lots of it will change before launch as they try to build the thing and find out why certain ideas don't work (again), and when it ships it will be smaller than even this presentation promises. EQN is a business idea before it's a game.

So the writing's on the wall. If anyone is going to make the game many of us are waiting for, it's going to have to come from the indie/kickstarter crowd, because the established companies are now officially out of ideas and out of touch with their roots.

Addendum: Rallying Call and the idea of a minecraft-esque physical depth to the world, along with emergent AI are solid ideas IMO. They will still revolve around set pieces (you'll dig down to discover another encounter piece precisely the same as you have encountered previously, with some level/power changes etc.) It won't be as "emergent" as they are selling it to be, but the procedural aspects of it that they do pull off could be compelling. You lose as much as you gain with this direction, but it has the potential to create a new type of experience i.e. a different type of game. Not better, different.

[Oppie]

It's cool to see MMO's try new and innovative things that haven't been tried out in other games. No one has played the game yet, and doesn't know how good/bad it will be. I'm skeptical about interactive environment and how that could be abused by the players.

I'm still going to save all my judgments for when i actually play the game.

[Breeziyo]

Oh yeah, you will be able to build a house anywhere you want. And guess the hell what. They will be WILLING to sell you online with your Visa Card a picture to hang on the wall. Oh, you want a birdbath in the yard, a fence, a sofa inside. Need I go on. It will be the same old crap over again. Mark my word.


The tinfoil hat is so strong it's actually restricting your ability to form coherent thoughts. Has science gone too far?

[webrunner5]

The tinfoil hat is so strong it's actually restricting your ability to form coherent thoughts. Has science gone too far?

We are talking Sony here. Did you even go to the damn EQn Homepage?? Bottom of the page.


"Free to Play. Your Way.®

Our philosophy is simple. Free games. No commitment. And if you want to buy, it's on your terms."

Do you even have a CLUE what that means??

[Lord Traxor]

This Voxel tech is a big change, if it keeps growing in trend it will force blizzard into adapting.

[Treefall]

This is what I think is going to happen with this pile of shit.

You're not limited to your class variation.

Everyone will be DPS/tank/healer/CC on one character.

"We still have the trinity..."

Pure healers and CC will be gone because everyone will be expected to heal while they're DPS, fml.

Please, some indie company...somewhere...remake EverQuest.

[Sloth]

Because the game will suck Whale Shit is why. They are just out to make money, not make a good game. It is geared towards kids. If Sony gave a shit they would not have all the stupid as hell Armour that you can buy now. They want your F'ing money. It is ALL about money.

Oh yeah, you will be able to build a house anywhere you want. And guess the hell what. They will be WILLING to sell you online with your Visa Card a picture to hang on the wall. Oh, you want a birdbath in the yard, a fence, a sofa inside. Need I go on. It will be the same old crap over again. Mark my word. We have all waited for years for a game that is just going to be a glorified WoW.

then simply don't play it. Why sit here and whine and try to convince others? I'll give it a shot either way. OK won't try to sit here and convince you otherwise. The blind hating is just as bad as the super fanboys...the antithesis. We still don't know how the game will play. I assume it will be awhile before we do.

[Karkona]

Hmm.. I'm fine with inspiration or plagiarizing aspects from other good games.
Public quests are great, glad they got it.
Minecraft is great, glad they have that spin and everything is voxelized.

I see some hate on Multiclass, but the way they represented it, I interpreted it was more like specializing upon the class you chose in the beginning? Similar to D&D, you start as a warrior and then down the road pick something that is more specialized amiright or wrong there?

I tweeted McPherson a few weeks ago, told him to make sure he puts in Centaurs from classic EQ as a playable race, he basically told me to dream on. Oh well goddamn.

[webrunner5]

then simply don't play it. Why sit here and whine and try to convince others? I'll give it a shot either way. OK won't try to sit here and convince you otherwise. The blind hating is just as bad as the super fanboys...the antithesis. We still don't know how the game will play. I assume it will be awhile before we do.

If you are playing THIS game and can tell me you will play THAT game you really are crazy as hell. :eek:

[Sloth]

I play a lot of different games. Maybe I prefer different games then you. This is why i don't understand the fanboy/haters on the forums....like what you like for why you like it.

[moe]

fuck all this 'make it yourself' bullshit. you gotta be kidding me

no more comments, just that. i dont believe you really think that

[Rust1d?]

I wonder if people remade the zones from EQ1 if they would put them in...

[TheSurgeon]

My feelings to a lot of the announcements are mixed. Like everyone else who loves classic EQ it's hard to hear so many developers talk about how it will go back to that type of hardcore gaming style that many people love. Of course not everyone loves it, and that is what makes it great because it doesn't even pretend to impress children looking for instant gratification and instead shows itself to be a magnificent game for a specific niche.

Voxel idea:

I actually like this technology in theory. Some of what they showed simply demonstrates gameplay where people destroy the environment around them with a few swings of that god awful hammer and the entire world crumbles. I feel that the destruction is too fast, or rather too easy, and significant adjustments to the system need to be made. Traveling further down into the world is interesting, but on a whole it feels just gimmicky. I sincerely hope you can't just skip mobs and tunnel to a rare spawn, so that the entire dungeon is surrounded by one hundred different assholes making mole tunnels. Finding rare areas and artifacts throughout history is an excellent idea, but it really needs to have somewhat of a controlling factor around it.

Graphics/Art style:

On a whole I think that the world graphics are excellent, and I really enjoy the lighting, but the Kerran rubs me fucking wrong. I'm not sure if it's his Alliance style armor, or the fact that it's a Worgen in lion disguise, but I just don't like it. I actually really like the human. Her facial proportions are offset because of RP emotes which I think are somewhat silly, but it doesn't bother me in the least that it is in the game. I liked the art design behind the clothes and how the hair and cloth flowed in the wind. It sort of feels cartoony, but not overly cartoony. In some ways I find that this is an issue in allowing a lot of systems to play on the game, but at the same time the graphics of the world are phenomenal and a destructible environment just means that this is a piss-poor reason behind cartoonish graphics. I played WoW for many years so I don't really mind a very light cartoonish feel, but I will wait and see how the other models turn out before I take the torch to SOE's headquarters. But I think that everyone can agree that the Ogre with the absurd shoulder to arm armor is un-fucking-acceptable.

Emergent AI/Rallying Call:

This is a really cool idea all together, but I will believe it when I see it. The rallying call allowing servers to be unique is a great idea, and that the world will change around you depending on how the players interact with the NPC's sounds too good to be true. Depending on how they present this, and if they can do all that they have promised will get my approval on this.

Multi-class/Combat/No Levels:

... Fuck you... I'm not sure where to start. I really like complex combat that was seen in the early times of WoW where skill came from really active combat. It is especially necessary for PvP, and somewhat in PvE if you are developing complex raid encounters. That said, all of the combat was over the top and I pray that it was just to demonstrate the tech and not something that will show how the actual game will play out. It is far too exaggerated with flashes and arcing swings that glow brightly. If you obtained an amazing weapon with particle effects, then yes let it glow while you swing, but not they way it looks to be now.

Multi-class... It is just a bad idea all around. Your character is nothing but a mesh of skills that are tied to your weapon that you can swap out to do whatever whenever, and your character has absolutely no identity besides vanity items. Furthermore you cannot balance PvE encounters around 100's of skills and make them all viable. Diablo 3 had a trillion builds... any-fucking-ways. It needs to be changed not only for purposes of character identity but for content development.

No leveling tells me that this is going to be a drop in anytime FPS style MMO where anyone can just log on and go anywhere with their cashshop gear and "explore". As far as I'm concerned they just made a Lewis and Clark simulator. If there is no way to really progress in power then there is essentially no endgame. "Well that makes it all endgame". Not really. It makes it farmville where nothing matters outside of rallying calls. I hope I am completely wrong about this.

The only benefit to any of these is PvP. Anyone who PvP's legitimately loves pure competition, and nothing screams competition outside of everyone being the same level and gear meaning little to nothing, and skill combinations allowing for unique team play. But not many people see EQ as solely being an open world PvPfest with barely any RPG elements to it. There needs to be a strong sense of PvE in the game and with no real classes and no levels, then the only PvE elements are going anywhere in the world and fighting monsters with a different skin but of the same difficulty. That is boring.

Landmark:

If you love minecraft then this is your new game. I think this feature is amazing and hands down will cause me to lose many hours just building really amazing things. The fact that it is linked to a cashshop is sort of disgusting, but I am beyond happy that it is separate from the actual world. That was something that I feared would be tied together making the immersion just a mesh of amateur hour.



Overall I see some beautiful graphics and a truly impressive editor, but a shallow world with absolutely no RPG feel to it outside of exploration. It is almost too clear that this was made with console aspirations in mind when you see the automatic jump and 8 skill limits. A sad fucking day for EQ.

I'm ready for Winter.

[SamwiseRed]

^i was thinking the same thing.

also on other forums i browse, alot of people that arent eq fans love this fucking game. i keep seeing, this is what guildwars 2 should have been. no idea if thats good or bad, i never played guild wars or guild wars 2 but the non p99 crowd seems to think this is the next big thing. maybe nothing can please the p99ers except re-releasing eq exactly how it was in classic.

[Breeziyo]

You're assuming a lot about things that have had nearly no information released about them except for "This will be in the game."

[liveitup1216]

Furor and Tigole's experience being in bleeding edge raiding while at the same time were very wise

Did anybody else lol at this?

[t0lkien]

Did anybody else lol at this?

Whoever wrote that never played Live or read any of their self-serving ego-fueled fascist rantings, that's for sure

[Talgurin]

If this game has instanced loot, like EEO is going to have, then I will never play it. It's why I uninstalled Diablo 3 after a week.

[citizen1080]

Video clips looks straight outta wow...

[Robdukes]

That Kerran looks like tony the tiger did a whirlwind through a heavy equipment junkyard and ended up with a piece of a bulldozer on his shoulder.

[Soandso]

That kerran looks like he should be a human paladin from wow.

[fastboy21]

To me, rallying call is a very advanced system like waking the sleeper in eq. It's a story line that you play through, but there were some servers that woke the sleeper and others that did not...the community affected the world. It sounds very cool to me that a whole world would crawling with these types of story lines, both grand and mundane.

[Rhuma7]

Whoever wrote that never played Live or read any of their self-serving ego-fueled fascist rantings, that's for sure

Furor had a very clear view of how things should have been and how to go about things.
If 1 man can alter the entire itemization of velious, props.

[fastboy21]

The Kerran thing is a gimme to EQ2 fans...it just looks silly to old eq players.

It's weird, but the art director in eqn was responsible for much of the art in eq1...she did talk about her choice to go with stylistic or "heroic" art rather than more realistic approaches.

[t0lkien]

Furor had a very clear view of how things should have been and how to go about things.
If 1 man can alter the entire itemization of velious, props.

So clear he named an ability in WoW after his EQ character and online alter ego. The guy has what is referred to on this side of the world as "short man's complex".

[magician]

I like how they talk about how their game is so different and that they are changing the "core" game yet they introduce it with a multi class system and an ability called "Whirlwind".

[Rhuma7]

So clear he named an ability in WoW after his EQ character and online alter ego. What sort of a douche does that. I mean really.

Foror's compendium of dragon slaying.

Sad that the only thing that was quoted from the chapter I wrote was some shit about tigole and furor.

[liveitup1216]

In my defense your post was pretty lackluster. You lamented over their combat system, of which we saw extremely little of other than like 4 animations and that weapons will affect abilities.

You doom it to failure for trying something new, the likes of which they're doing are more likely to succeed than fail. Yes, we want EQ1 again with punishing mechanics and heavy numbers and not action bars so we can socialize. It just isn't going to happen from a major developer because they want money. I'm glad they're trying to steer away from the grind to level cap and then plug away at dungeons forever.

You all call their designs dogshit but offer nothing better other than "we want EQ1", which realistically was never going to happen (from Sony or any other major developer) and you all knew that from the start.

So, yeah... you calling Furor and Tigole wise was the only good part about your post.

[SamwiseRed]

ya they should have called it swirling attack...

[Rhuma7]

The dumbing down of combat can be blamed for pushing for the console market which is stupid if you're marketing your game to your playerbase consisting of nothing but COMPUTER GAMERS!

Was the only mention of the combat system, you sure you're reading the right post? lol

[t0lkien]

I think EQN will be what some people like - same as EQ2 (which I thought was horrid), and GW2 (ditto with some nice art, though not my style). But it's not going to fill the hole EQ classic left, and that's the point people are just now realizing. Mind you, it was never going to do that. That's what it started off trying to do and they scrapped it after 18 months. It was always going to be a marketing circus of showy "features" once they took that direction. Most of it is going to fall short in the same way Black and White and other games before it have, and for the same reasons. But fanbois and fangirls are going to suck it up regardless and argue passionately for it. The rest of us just quietly move on, again.

Apples and oranges, and horses for courses.

[Tasslehofp99]

How can they continually put the everquest name on such shitty fucking games!?

I would never pay for this game.

[Tasslehofp99]

Just based on graphics alone (a VERY small part of what makes a game enjoyable) I would say this game looks like shit. It doesn't even remind me of EQ at all. I was atleast hoping this game would take SOME of the classic eq novelties and that sony would try to give it a classic feel
I think the problem is that all of these game devs think "bigger is better" so to speak. They just keep putting out absolute shit though.



I give eqn a score of 2/10 as far as its potential to be a game worth playing (or paying for) and a 0/10 in terms of staying true to the everquest name.


Fuck you SoE.

[RahlaeRuffian]

Any link to the video with the ogre in it? I too do not like the art from what I've seen and I really don't understand how an MMO will be successful as a sandbox. Also not sure how its going to work without levels.

[Nuggie]

I can adapt myself to the graphics. I like the idea of things constantly changing. It will play hell on the wiki crowd.

I like the idea of creating cities. Esp with the detail they are offering. Its totally going to suck when they send that giant to smash it to bits after you spent all that time working on it though. I see the destruction thing leading to exploits.

Going to be awfully hard to balance multiclasses. although, as was previously mentioned people flock to the better classes in EQ.

The face emote thing is a fun aspect. not make or break either way.

rallying cry intrigues me.

Like Tass said, 0/10 for sticking to the eq1 sandbox expectations. although that's not what they were going for. After the initial hype has died down I'd give this game a 6/10 for trying a new thing or two to try to advance the genre.

Also excited for winter coming.

[Barn]

So new and innovative, oh wait.
In 2001 I played DAOC. I was a Cleric who multiclassed with Reaver. I called myself a Cleaver.
Then the call came, the orcs were attacking, er some city. We all went and mined stone to build this massive wall around the keep...
Then we all got bored and quit.

[Ellouelle]

i like all the nerds over here getting really mad over how they have cartoony graphics. like, really? you all realize that that's a logistics thing, right? don't be retarded. they're cartoony because it's easy to make a decent art direction with cartoons without having ridiculous graphical requirements that only the most dedicated players will be able to meet up with.

I don't think that the art looks like wow at all. If anything you could make a more valid comparison to say that the graphics look like borderlands minus the cel shading.

if u want to make a complaint about EQN, make it one that isn't completely retarded. tony the tiger was retarded i agree but honestly it's not game breaking to me.

[t0lkien]

i like all the nerds over here getting really mad over how they have cartoony graphics. like, really? you all realize that that's a logistics thing, right? don't be retarded.

Stopped reading here, because no offense, but it shows you have no idea what you're talking about, and you're aggressive about it to boot.

[Nogdar]

Major disappointment for me too even though this is really alpha stuff and much is going to change.

The world looks superb, and the editor Landmark thing is absolutely great for the minecraft crowd/creative players - and thank god it's separate from the real game because frankly the Foundry of Neverwinter, mehhh.

Graphics are way too cartoonish, the human looks cool but the tiger is absolutely catastrophic and the armors are 200% WoW even worse. For a game trying to be innovating and surprising, the models and armors sure aren't -_-

Combat while surely in it's infant stages look absolutely catastrophic as well, I hope that tiger was lvl 60 in a lvl 5 area because it's plain stupid as it is there...

Not a fan at all of the no levels/classes idea either. It's not a bad idea, but doesn't fit EQ imo. If they wanted to go that route, should've done UO next, not EQ next.

And I'm sorry but this business model doesn't cut it for me, as it didn't in Neverwinter - I hated it (17 different currencies and stuff so annoying). It's the same story here, games with good background (EQ/D&D) but totally ruined with this modern F2P+cash shop business model just bringing in stupid concepts for you to dish out money and often too close to P2W elements.

Like I said at the beginning of my post, we're merely in alpha and much of what we dislike from what we saw might change, but from what I saw there I think I'd skip the game entirely. I think the game has potential, but targetting a niche market, not the mass-market - i.e. Minecraft players longing for their game with WoW graphics? Dunno..

[raff01]

Looked plain amazing. Its everything I always wanted for a game. If they keep their promises as for landmarks and destructibility and dynamic questing, it might be the best MMO ever.
I'm very excited, screw the cynical haters.

[Zaruk]

Major disappointment for me too even though this is really alpha stuff and much is going to change.

The world looks superb, and the editor Landmark thing is absolutely great for the minecraft crowd/creative players - and thank god it's separate from the real game because frankly the Foundry of Neverwinter, mehhh.

Graphics are way too cartoonish, the human looks cool but the tiger is absolutely catastrophic and the armors are 200% WoW even worse. For a game trying to be innovating and surprising, the models and armors sure aren't -_-

Combat while surely in it's infant stages look absolutely catastrophic as well, I hope that tiger was lvl 60 in a lvl 5 area because it's plain stupid as it is there...

Not a fan at all of the no levels/classes idea either. It's not a bad idea, but doesn't fit EQ imo. If they wanted to go that route, should've done UO next, not EQ next.

And I'm sorry but this business model doesn't cut it for me, as it didn't in Neverwinter - I hated it (17 different currencies and stuff so annoying). It's the same story here, games with good background (EQ/D&D) but totally ruined with this modern F2P+cash shop business model just bringing in stupid concepts for you to dish out money and often too close to P2W elements.

Like I said at the beginning of my post, we're merely in alpha and much of what we dislike from what we saw might change, but from what I saw there I think I'd skip the game entirely. I think the game has potential, but targetting a niche market, not the mass-market - i.e. Minecraft players longing for their game with WoW graphics? Dunno..

+1 exactly my thoughts

[myriverse]

I love the "cartoony" complaints, too.

Original EQ = Cartoony. You were just willing enough to suspend disbelief to ignore it. I mean seriously, Ogres looked like Fred freaking Flintstone and Peter Griffin had a love child. Cartoony!

[raff01]

Yeah I love how EQ die hard fans turn things around their way :
When someone says EQ has very poor graphics : "its not about graphics its about the gameplay and the lore"
When they see EQ next : " WTF those graphics are way too cartoonish, I'll never play that game !!"

[Tasslehofp99]

i like all the nerds over here getting really mad over how they have cartoony graphics. like, really? you all realize that that's a logistics thing, right? don't be retarded. they're cartoony because it's easy to make a decent art direction with cartoons without having ridiculous graphical requirements that only the most dedicated players will be able to meet up with.

I don't think that the art looks like wow at all. If anything you could make a more valid comparison to say that the graphics look like borderlands minus the cel shading.

if u want to make a complaint about EQN, make it one that isn't completely retarded. tony the tiger was retarded i agree but honestly it's not game breaking to me.

You realize that some of us don't like games that look terrible, like EQnext?
I mean, sure it could be a great game despite its terrible graphics, not likely though.
The clips of combat they showed yesterday all but guarantee this is just another game using another game's title to milk retards like you for money. Go ahead and buy this shitty pos game, I wont cause it blows donkey cocks just like WoW, LoL, Vanguard, Rift, etc etc.

All these developers do is make cheap shitty games designed to make the most profit, so go ahead and buy it. You're just doing exactly what they want, so instead of EQnext folding completely because its a shitty game, they will continue making bad games because people like you buy them!

[Tasslehofp99]

I love the "cartoony" complaints, too.

Original EQ = Cartoony. You were just willing enough to suspend disbelief to ignore it. I mean seriously, Ogres looked like Fred freaking Flintstone and Peter Griffin had a love child. Cartoony!

Whats your point? Ogres are supposed to be blundering, fat, and dumb. Next you're going to tell me that gnomes are too small, and barbarians are too tall?


Yeah I love how EQ die hard fans turn things around their way :
When someone says EQ has very poor graphics : "its not about graphics its about the gameplay and the lore"
When they see EQ next : " WTF those graphics are way too cartoonish, I'll never play that game !!"

By cartoony I think people mean that it just looks like WoW-type char models, which were terrible. They literally looked like something you would see on cartoon network, where as EQ was a realistic fantasy world where players actually looked like they were supposed to. Original EQ player character models were amazing, they were the best, despite being less than refined. The thing is here they are trying to use the Everquest name and turn it into something that it never was, never will be. I think EQ's graphics/world are amazing and there simply won't ever be a game as good as EQ.



Face it kids, we lived through the golden age of MMORPG's. There won't ever be another everquest, or another game as good as it. EQ 2 proved that, and last night's reveal of EQnext looks worse than eq2 did.

[Hobie819]

I think it will be a decent game, however I feel there will be another MMO 1-2 years from EQnext that will take what EQN was trying to do and make it work.

The world that can be demolished to me basically means instancing. Great, the iron golem destroyed the building but it's not going to be destroyed forever. Finish that instance and come back and the building is magically constructed again, ready for the next iron golem to tear it down. The zones themselves were very much like Guild Wars which doesn't sink me into the world. It does the first time but never afterwards - It loses its awesomeness when you come back and see the same building standing up again.

Multiclassing is not new - old story. Don't pretend it's new EQn...

The multilayer zones could work... but I think that the multilayer zones along with the ever-changing layers *ie) earthquakes that make your tunnels disappear" just means that penalties for death will not be high. If the ground will swallow you whole and the tunnels you were fighting in will cave in, your corpses will inevitably either not exist (meaning you respawn with your gear) or the fcorpses will go to a safe spot in the zone where you can reloot them.

The rallying call looked good, but I can only see good rallying calls lasting for a year or two before they get old and rehashed. Build a city? Ok... It also doesn't make sense from a logic standpoint (and granted yes, this is a fantasy, but if I were going to build a city, at some point logic dictates "f this". Ok, lets build a city - oh, goblins are attacking, lets build a wall. Oh, to build a wall we need to mine the earth. Ok, lets mine. Oh what the hell, things under the earth are going to pop out and destroy the city now? F'this, lets build somewhere else" would be the logical thing to do.

Again, I know this is a fantasy game, but to make large quests seem epic and make people want to get involved, they need to make sense. Lets why no one likes collection quests... "why does this person really need 5 billion rat ears every day? What the heck are they making?" They're boring, unimaginative and make no sense.

The logical AIs. I think in theory it's a good idea, however it worries me when they say that the mobs remember what you did. Mobs going to the roads of best benefit is fantastic, but they used the example of the goblin king sending a war band out to get you for slaying too many goblins. That screams at me "kill this many goblins and the war band appears" which is just a play at the collection quests that no one likes. Want to get the goblin king? Kill this many goblins and he'll appear!

The world builder concept seems good - I see it for what it is (a way to have less developers tied to the project thus making the overhead costs less) but I know a lot of players will sit all day building stuff. Having said that though, it makes me wonder about how expansions will work. It seems to be a good marketing technique - players are more involved and have more of a stake in the game so they will be less likely to leave, but on the other hand, will expansions just be player created pieces that are put together by the developers? It seems right now that the developers will only have on job really - create the story and let the players create the world for the story. It is an interesting concept and I think this is really only one of the few truly "new" concept for MMOs - good for the players, good for the developers, good for SOE. Only thing that concerns me is the real life money part but I can overlook that as long as it makes the game better because people are more into building awesome things.

I can overlook the cartoony models, so long as the game mechanics are good. That's what truly matters to me is how the game is played and like many have pointed out, it hasn't really been shown yet. The little gameplay that was shown was pre-made events. The mobs were scripted, the players were scripted, and I doubt it will play exactly like was shown. It was done to "wow" everyone with the combat system and what you can do.

[nalkin]

Good god this game looks like absolute sh!te. How can they spend this much time and make a game worse than the original?

Everything seemed bad to me except the holy grail of destructibility. None of the other mechanics are going to work well without making the game E Z mode and horrible.


Multiclassing is not new - old story. Don't pretend it's new EQn...


The funny part was how he said "we have all played enough DnD we need something new, so we are going to have multiclassing!!"

[Lime]

So the long awaited EQN debuts with....

The protagonist being Tony the Tiger doing a diablo barbarian whirlwind and one-shotting everything around him while eating a bowl of Frosted Flakes in his "FRESH CRIB" that he bought on the RMAH, all the while Michael Bay blows up terrain around him for no apparent reason. Meanwhile the heroine that looks like the Vanquisher from Torchlight jumps 40 feet in the air like shes ninja gaiden and is a "Wizard". Gandalf only wishes he could tumble, double jump, and stomp the yard like her.

Maybe I will be wrong but this looks nothing like the everquest playstyle I remember. If they continue on this path I half expect Lord Nagafen to karate kick you in the face and do a backflip somersault teleport into a street fighter hyuuken, all while outbidding you on that tower you are trying to buy on the auction house, which looks strangely like a phallic object.

[LordSterben]

So the long awaited EQN debuts with....

The protagonist being Tony the Tiger doing a diablo barbarian whirlwind and one-shotting everything around him while eating a bowl of Frosted Flakes in his "FRESH CRIB" that he bought on the RMAH, all the while Michael Bay blows up terrain around him for no apparent reason. Meanwhile the heroine that looks like the Vanquisher from Torchlight jumps 40 feet in the air like shes ninja gaiden and is a "Wizard". Gandalf only wishes he could tumble, double jump, and stomp the yard like her.

Maybe I will be wrong but this looks nothing like the everquest playstyle I remember. If they continue on this path I half expect Lord Nagafen to karate kick you in the face and do a backflip somersault teleport into a street fighter hyuuken, all while outbidding you on that tower you are trying to buy on the auction house, which looks strangely like a phallic object.

Thank you for summing this for me in such a comical fashion. I lol'd.

[Numbers_]

So the long awaited EQN debuts with....

The protagonist being Tony the Tiger doing a diablo barbarian whirlwind and one-shotting everything around him while eating a bowl of Frosted Flakes in his "FRESH CRIB" that he bought on the RMAH, all the while Michael Bay blows up terrain around him for no apparent reason. Meanwhile the heroine that looks like the Vanquisher from Torchlight jumps 40 feet in the air like shes ninja gaiden and is a "Wizard". Gandalf only wishes he could tumble, double jump, and stomp the yard like her.

Maybe I will be wrong but this looks nothing like the everquest playstyle I remember. If they continue on this path I half expect Lord Nagafen to karate kick you in the face and do a backflip somersault teleport into a street fighter hyuuken, all while outbidding you on that tower you are trying to buy on the auction house, which looks strangely like a phallic object.

Hahah that was my impression of the combat too. He actually looked like Taz from the cartoons. The good news is I am seeing a lot of people complain about this, so maybe they will tone it down some before release.

[LordSterben]

At this point, the second that you have a whirlwind attack in your game, you have failed your adult audience.

[t0lkien]

At this point, the second that you have a whirlwind attack in your game, you have failed your adult audience.

And is it just me, or did they lift the names and styles of attack straight from Diablo etc.? I was cringing a bit.

As for them toning down the combat a bit, it is what it is. They won't change the style of it now. It's basically arcade RPG-lite action combat, and that decision affects everything from the ground up - code, animation, and art. No way they will change it.

[Numbers_]

Yeah, you're probably right.

I just wish someone would go more towards a dark souls like combat system. Action combat, but without being spammy button mashing crap.

[monti]

My experience has been graphics usually directly correlate to difficulty. They're marketed toward a specific crowd because that is the first impression of a game. I hope they turn this around.

[Thulack]

Major disappointment for me too even though this is really alpha stuff and much is going to change.

The world looks superb, and the editor Landmark thing is absolutely great for the minecraft crowd/creative players - and thank god it's separate from the real game because frankly the Foundry of Neverwinter, mehhh.

Graphics are way too cartoonish, the human looks cool but the tiger is absolutely catastrophic and the armors are 200% WoW even worse. For a game trying to be innovating and surprising, the models and armors sure aren't -_-

Combat while surely in it's infant stages look absolutely catastrophic as well, I hope that tiger was lvl 60 in a lvl 5 area because it's plain stupid as it is there...

Not a fan at all of the no levels/classes idea either. It's not a bad idea, but doesn't fit EQ imo. If they wanted to go that route, should've done UO next, not EQ next.

And I'm sorry but this business model doesn't cut it for me, as it didn't in Neverwinter - I hated it (17 different currencies and stuff so annoying). It's the same story here, games with good background (EQ/D&D) but totally ruined with this modern F2P+cash shop business model just bringing in stupid concepts for you to dish out money and often too close to P2W elements.

Like I said at the beginning of my post, we're merely in alpha and much of what we dislike from what we saw might change, but from what I saw there I think I'd skip the game entirely. I think the game has potential, but targetting a niche market, not the mass-market - i.e. Minecraft players longing for their game with WoW graphics? Dunno..

Sadly i dont think that is the niche market anymore. WE are the niche market and what you described is what the mass of younger kids want to play and it will just get worse in the future.

[Kimmie]

Lol, man. Should have just listened to posts and not watched the reveal.

This is depressing.

[Gadwen]

I'm more surprised by people actually being disappointed with what they saw. What did you really expect from SOE?

[Nestea]

wtf is with this weird sand drawing

That artist was Omazing. How quick he could draw the scenes of what was happening. Very cool

[liveitup1216]

I don't know, after reading more and more articles from the later panels the game is looking like the most advanced RPG to date to me.

http://eqn.junkiesnation.com/2013/08/02/eq-next-world-of-eqn/

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/08/03/everquest-next-interview/#null

[liveitup1216]

Multiclassing was a huge turn-off for me and its looking pretty damn cool. You can't unlock and get every class/spell. You level your "active" class by playing it and finding things/cues to unlock advanced tiers, so unlocking tier 4 abilities might require a bunch of hidden cues like having a set of tier 3 armor etc.

And finding classes depends on your actions, if you're a dick you won't be able to become a paladin, though you might unlock the shadow knight class if you play your cards right.

They've got me pretty intrigued IF they can actually pull this off and not blow smoke.

[Nestea]

I'm out, free form multiclassing and wearing anything you want = fail.

Oh god, removing customization limitations! The pain that will ensue from freedom of choice! Lol. Kerrans do look weird IMO, though I do think they are better than cats, female model should have softer "cat" face.

[t0lkien]

How anyone can look at the screenshots in that second article and not see the clear WoW influence is beyond me. Meh.

[Nulak]

Whats your point? Ogres are supposed to be blundering, fat, and dumb. Next you're going to tell me that gnomes are too small, and barbarians are too tall?




By cartoony I think people mean that it just looks like WoW-type char models, which were terrible. They literally looked like something you would see on cartoon network, where as EQ was a realistic fantasy world where players actually looked like they were supposed to. Original EQ player character models were amazing, they were the best, despite being less than refined. The thing is here they are trying to use the Everquest name and turn it into something that it never was, never will be. I think EQ's graphics/world are amazing and there simply won't ever be a game as good as EQ.



Face it kids, we lived through the golden age of MMORPG's. There won't ever be another everquest, or another game as good as it. EQ 2 proved that, and last night's reveal of EQnext looks worse than eq2 did.

Sad but true, i don't see any big company able to pull out a true EQ99. Maybe "indie" can do that. See what GGG did with path of exile, i think someone can do the same with an MMORPG, some guys who don't focus millions of subs and shit tons of money.

[Rogean]

need live update big R and tiggles, tell us your feelings

Dunno wtf tiggles is, I haven't seen him. Been meeting SOE devs though.. texted him a bunch of times and nadda. He pussy out or something?

[SamwiseRed]

rogean, what are your thoughts on eqnext. please make a new thread tho so i can read it and its not lost in this one.

[Fountree]

So the long awaited EQN debuts with....

The protagonist being Tony the Tiger doing a diablo barbarian whirlwind and one-shotting everything around him while eating a bowl of Frosted Flakes in his "FRESH CRIB" that he bought on the RMAH, all the while Michael Bay blows up terrain around him for no apparent reason. Meanwhile the heroine that looks like the Vanquisher from Torchlight jumps 40 feet in the air like shes ninja gaiden and is a "Wizard". Gandalf only wishes he could tumble, double jump, and stomp the yard like her.

Maybe I will be wrong but this looks nothing like the everquest playstyle I remember. If they continue on this path I half expect Lord Nagafen to karate kick you in the face and do a backflip somersault teleport into a street fighter hyuuken, all while outbidding you on that tower you are trying to buy on the auction house, which looks strangely like a phallic object.

lololol couldnt have said it better

[Ahldagor]

looks like darkfall without pvp and a wowish tint on everything. sliver of hope destroyed. p99 forver

[Calibix]

+10 for all the hypocrisy and rose-colored glasses.

I find it funny how some of you diehards are bitching about stuff, and there is information out there that clearly states its what you want, but you still complain because its not EQ1.

Its not supposed to be EQ1 reborn, it never was. I get it, you like EQ, so you play here, but don't act like EQ is the only game that will ever be good. Coming back and playing it, its depressing how easy the game is. Yet people will tell you how difficult EQ is. Its difficult if your a retard and pull 20 mobs and die repeatedly and your xp is going backwards. Its easy when you do things as intended and hit the same keys over and over like EVERY OTHER GAME. EQ1 raiding is a complete joke, 0 skill required unless your a cleric in the loop, and lets face it, that isn't fucking quantum physics. Numerous classes with the ability to solo content intended for groups. Yeah really challenging....

That being said, I'm still skeptical about how it will all work in the end, but I'm going to try it. My guild just submitted our list of members so my beta key should be around soon (I haven't signed any NDA yet so fuck it, might as well let you know).

[Bantam 1]

+10 for all the hypocrisy and rose-colored glasses.

I find it funny how some of you diehards are bitching about stuff, and there is information out there that clearly states its what you want, but you still complain because its not EQ1.

Its not supposed to be EQ1 reborn, it never was. I get it, you like EQ, so you play here, but don't act like EQ is the only game that will ever be good. Coming back and playing it, its depressing how easy the game is. Yet people will tell you how difficult EQ is. Its difficult if your a retard and pull 20 mobs and die repeatedly and your xp is going backwards. Its easy when you do things as intended and hit the same keys over and over like EVERY OTHER GAME. EQ1 raiding is a complete joke, 0 skill required unless your a cleric in the loop, and lets face it, that isn't fucking quantum physics. Numerous classes with the ability to solo content intended for groups. Yeah really challenging....

That being said, I'm still skeptical about how it will all work in the end, but I'm going to try it. My guild just submitted our list of members so my beta key should be around soon (I haven't signed any NDA yet so fuck it, might as well let you know).


Yeah it has multiclassing which IMO blows.... not because its different or new, but because unless its done perfectly or near perfect.... it actually reduces choice and uniqueness of group comp.


If you give me 100 classes, but only 5 or 6 combos of abilities are "viable" then you only really have 5 or 6 classes. The rest are noob traps.

[Calibix]

Yeah it has multiclassing which IMO blows.... not because its different or new, but because unless its done perfectly or near perfect.... it actually reduces choice and uniqueness of group comp.


If you give me 100 classes, but only 5 or 6 combos of abilities are "viable" then you only really have 5 or 6 classes. The rest are noob traps.

I can agree with most of that. What your describing is Rift basically. It sounded awesome but in practice there were only so many viable builds for PVE. You could be creative with PVP builds though and still be viable.

But like you say, if its done right, it could be great. All we can do is speculate. For example though, from the info I have seen, its not like everyone is going to be max level of all classes, only really hardcore players are going to accomplish that. The example they used is pally and SK. In order to advance as a paladin you have to get in good with the good guys for them to teach you. That prevents you from getting in good with the bad guys who would teach you SK stuff. You would have to fully train as one or the other, then go back switch your faction, and start over fresh as the other.

Furthermore, its being designed as extremely gear dependent game. When they talked about the teleporting rogue for instance, they described a situation where you would teleport, but then not have enough energy/stamina/mana/whatever to backstab unless you had gear that was designed for that type of playstyle. To me, that gives me motivation to play outside of filling an xp bar. Same as it is here when you decide I'm going to go get jboots, gebs, random item x, etc etc. Of course you can't really do that on P99 since the economy is so fucked, but you get the idea.

[Razdeline]

Horizontal progression is the closest thing to UO I have seen, I will be playing it.

[Razdeline]

I loved my GM swords/mage hallywack combo in UO. I liked having a class dedicated to crafting and making kegs of potions, and deadly poisoning my weapons.

[Thunderclasp]

Holy shit the amount of complaints here is high. We get it, it isn't EQ1. Here's a hint, if it's been 14 years since the release of the last game you liked, there won't be a game in the future you'll like.

I get it, I'm here because I played EQ1 from middle school all through high school. It broke my MMO virginity, and it probably can be said for most of the people here that isn't too far off from you. Most of us were young and impressionable. I've also gone back and played Master of Orion, Legend of Zelda, Diablo 1, etc. They were amazing because at the time they were. Now? Now, just the same as EQ is, they're just ways for us to be nostalgic and relive our youth.

I love EQ1, I've spent more days playing this than I'll probably spend doing any other game, but that doesn't mean its a good game. Grinding is awful, spending 4 hours just to make back XP you lost from 1 death is awful. Zoning, raiding, lack of freedom, attacking, etc etc are all bad. Other games have done them better. EQN will do them better.

We are a niche group of maybe 2000-3000 people. EQN is not going to cater to us, they couldn't care less about us. Like it or not, its a money making game. More cartoony graphics brings in more people (but comparing them to EQ1 graphics is still retarded people, come on now), Michael Bay combat brings in more people. What EQN is trying to do is bring in as much people as possible (revenue), while still trying to keep as close to the roots of the Everquest franchise as possible, while still trying to innovate.

I loved the EQN reveal. Better and more lore, facial moldability was a huge plus. Seeing Lavastorm, and the underbelly of Lavastorm, was incredible. Seeing Feerrott's humid swamp/jungle-esque landscape was awesome. The world seems very well done. Graphics was bleh, but more people than not like those graphics, and they're easier to render for video cards, so it's a necessary evil imo. Combat has been cried a lot about, but that was also most likely a max skilled warrior and wizard fighting noob mobs simply to show how actiony combat could look. The combat in the lava pit was spectacular. And heres the most important fact, that footage was from Beta.

Give the game a chance beyond a 50 minute demo a year before release.

[Nogdar]

I love the "cartoony" complaints, too.

Original EQ = Cartoony. You were just willing enough to suspend disbelief to ignore it. I mean seriously, Ogres looked like Fred freaking Flintstone and Peter Griffin had a love child. Cartoony!

While I'll agree ogres are cartoonish, the world and models overall certainly aren't anywhere near as cartoonish as Tony the Whirlwinding Tiger and stuff - or you haven't been spending enough time in befallen, najena or guk... I think EQ has a touch of diabloish atmosphere in some dungeons that I enjoy, and that you won't find in WoW or EQ Next.

Also to answer a general comment I read a lot, I personally didn't expect EQNext to be EQ1 redone, it's stupid to believe it wouldve been as, as has been said, we are a tiny minority here. It doesn't change that the demos and what they were showing were disappointing to my taste and the game so far doesn't look like something I'll want to play - it's all I said^^

[myriverse]

They are every bit as cartoony as EQNext's Kerran. It's just that your mind isn't as open.

[Nogdar]

maybe you're right but I feel torture instruments and hanged skeletons not to be cartoonish :)

[Roku]

From the panel interview:
"Butler: We don’t expect the need to build 10,000 rifle barrels to become a grandmaster."

Rifle barrels??

I hate you for this WoW ...

Everything else is intriguing enough to wait-n-see.

[raff01]

Dunno wtf tiggles is, I haven't seen him. Been meeting SOE devs though.. texted him a bunch of times and nadda. He pussy out or something?

Tiggles is one of the worst nolifers on P1999

[raff01]

EverQuest was/is epic. Nothing about EQN appears or feels epic (with a proviso below). They have gone for technological "advances" without any of the broad unifying sweeps of the original EQ. Notice how no-one cheered at the concept art or flybys until they were asked to do so? It's because we've all seen it before. It's all tight, small, and intensely detailed while looking careful controlled and contrived - just like every other modern console shooter. The style? How much more like Blizzard/Warhammer can everyone go and keep a straight face about it. Really, it's perplexing. Good grief, even the Dark Forces/Jedi Knight games from 10+ years ago felt more epic than this.

The multi-class thing? This was all tried and failed in paper systems before computer games existed. The only game to get it anywhere near right was Daggerfall/Obsidian franchise, and it was/is a *single player game*. Anyone building a new RPG should at least be aware of what has gone before it so it doesn't try to go down all the already disproven dry gullies that looked good initially but didn't work in the end. Class distinction is lost when you can be anything. The gameplay as a result is blurred and unsatisfying. Limitations are what makes great gameplay, not the lack of them. RPGing 101. And anyway, as has been said, everyone will figure out the optimal build and use it. Remember D3's "billions of builds"? Yeah. I'm wondering how many times this lesson has to be learned.

The animation system is nice. I don't mind the touches of Disney in the character facials. But these things do not make a game. We are here playing a 15 year old square-limbed game because it looks great, right? Gameplay. Gameplay is king. That does not mean a Diablo-esque combat system with lots of noise and action, and single player focus. Destructibility - the only way this can work in an MMO is where everything is instanced (so the world doesn't end up a pile of ash within the first day). Goodbye MMO; hello MO.

The usual journalistic sycophantism aside, even the crowd was underwhelmed. It's a mish-mash of secondhand ideas and "cool tech" thrown together. It's a game built around potential "tent pegs" of hyperbole and marketing, and hyped into absurdity before even this small reveal. What they did show was carefully constructed tech demos, nothing more. Lots of it will change before launch as they try to build the thing and find out why certain ideas don't work (again), and when it ships it will be smaller than even this presentation promises. EQN is a business idea before it's a game.

So the writing's on the wall. If anyone is going to make the game many of us are waiting for, it's going to have to come from the indie/kickstarter crowd, because the established companies are now officially out of ideas and out of touch with their roots.

Addendum: Rallying Call and the idea of a minecraft-esque physical depth to the world, along with emergent AI are solid ideas IMO. They will still revolve around set pieces (you'll dig down to discover another encounter piece precisely the same as you have encountered previously, with some level/power changes etc.) It won't be as "emergent" as they are selling it to be, but the procedural aspects of it that they do pull off could be compelling. You lose as much as you gain with this direction, but it has the potential to create a new type of experience i.e. a different type of game. Not better, different.

Don't you still get it? EverQuest was epic to all of us, cause it was 1999 and it was the 1st game of this kind and we were for most, teens. Its like your 1st great love, its a feeling you always try to come back to but somehow just never can.
Sad truth mate is we all grew old and we just don't see MMO's now the way we used to, all stuck deeply in nostalgia acting like it's still year 2000 and Kunark was just released...
EQ Next is as epic as a MMO can get, you just don't see it. If you were 15 right now and hadn't ever known either EQ, EQ2 or WoW, playing EQN for the 1st time would be forever a fond memory and you'd be looking for it all your life.

[Rapidwave]

was really looking forward to this. still gonna try it, but it's sounding worse and worse with the details being released.

no levels, no trinity, gw2 style outdoor pve (zerg fest).. ugh

[Numbers_]

I always hear rose-colored glasses and you only like it because it was your first MMO and I respectfully disagree.

The reason I like this game is because the punishing, unforgiving nature of it makes it more of a adventure than any game before or since. It's also the reason I loved the Demon Souls and Dark Souls games. No MMO after EQ has really had the same mechanics (for PVE at least) and that really is the sole reason I play here. If another game came out tomorrow with similar gameplay mechanics (harsh death penalty, slow travel, etc) I would be gone.

I hate the old ass graphics and I tend to go to places I didn't visit the first time I played. I'm pretty confident it's not nostalgia for me.

I think there is big, untapped market for a "hardcore" mmo and I can't believe a Indie developer hasn't jumped on this yet. Hell, Dark Souls sold more than 2 million copies. Yeah, it's not going to make WOW money, but what is? Blizzard will probably beat SOE on that front (again) anyway, because they are the kings of casual MMOs and polish.

[Thulack]

Don't you still get it? EverQuest was epic to all of us, cause it was 1999 and it was the 1st game of this kind and we were for most, teens. Its like your 1st great love, its a feeling you always try to come back to but somehow just never can.
Sad truth mate is we all grew old and we just don't see MMO's now the way we used to, all stuck deeply in nostalgia acting like it's still year 2000 and Kunark was just released...
EQ Next is as epic as a MMO can get, you just don't see it. If you were 15 right now and hadn't ever known either EQ, EQ2 or WoW, playing EQN for the 1st time would be forever a fond memory and you'd be looking for it all your life.

Not sure you get it. We all know EQ next is gonna be epic but maybe some of us didn't want epic. Maybe someone of us wanted with more EQ gameplay in mind then what Next looks to bring(they still need to show more in reality). I signed up for beta and will give EQN a chance but i played GW2 for about a week before i gave up removed it from PC. Most of us just have to realize the only enjoyment we will get out of PC games anymore is the 14 year old Elf simulator. I'm fine with that knowledge really if it comes to that. Personally the community is why i play a MMORPG. If i didnt care about the other people playing i'll just play a single player RPG. So really its more the other gamers that will keep me from enjoying the game moreso then the game itself.

[TarukShmaruk]

I was REALLY impressed with the new art style.

After the plastic garbage that was luclin and EQ2, I expected something similar. When I heard 'we wanted to make the ogres look more intelligent and warlike' I cringed - because I love the dopey ogres/troll look.

I will still miss some of the goofy gnome/dwarf/halfing/ogre/troll faces, but I'm still happy

[Treefall]

I was REALLY impressed with the new art style.

After the plastic garbage that was luclin and EQ2, I expected something similar. When I heard 'we wanted to make the ogres look more intelligent and warlike' I cringed - because I love the dopey ogres/troll look.

I will still miss some of the goofy gnome/dwarf/halfing/ogre/troll faces, but I'm still happy

In-case you didn't read it, they said in their panel that the trinity of classes is dead.

There will be no required tank, healer, or CC class - all classes will be responsible for their own lives/action. Everyone can do everything, and you can quickly swap out of combat...and also there are no agro meters.

Basically, it's more and more like Guild Wars 2.

Healers and Tanks got a big middle finger from SOE.

[Ellouelle]

Stopped reading here, because no offense, but it shows you have no idea what you're talking about, and you're aggressive about it to boot.
All that I'm saying is that you have two options:

You can take a stylistic approach that may or may not appeal to everyone, and it will generally be enough that you can suspend your disbelief and be okay with it. (see: world of warcraft)

OR

You can try to be realistic while simultaneously having low graphics, and look like horse shit that appeals to literally no one. (do you really want star wars art direction over wow art direction? really)

Most people here don't seem to get that.

[Nune]

Like anything in life, when someone tries to do something different, or off-the-beaten-path, most people will comparatively hate on it for that reason. It's the fact you're not sure if you'll like something different that seems to be the deterrent here. Seems like half the neckbeards wanted EQ1HD and the other half of the mouthbreathers wanted the same ole trinity archetype with EQ Lore, better graphics. EQN from the get promised none of that from the get go yet here we all are furiously slamming keys

[Razdeline]

Yeah EQ1 purists is laughable, any UO/SWG player would see the class system is the best one out there

[khanable]

Yeah EQ1 purists is laughable, any UO/SWG player would see the class system is the best one out there

not really

UO you have specific builds that you either do or you're gimped.

I imagine the same goes for SWG.

[Rapidwave]

not really

UO you have specific builds that you either do or you're gimped.

I imagine the same goes for SWG.

This.

Just go take a look at SWGEmu right now. There is only 1 "build" for PvP and 1 build for PvE. Every single person plays the same thing (Rifles/CM). It's the same way with Rift, and every game that tries this. It was like that during SWG Pre-CU on live too. Only 3 different builds for PvP, if you weren't one of those, you were vastly inferior.

Has nothing to do with being EQ1 purist or that EQN is trying something different. They are doing nothing different in regards to the class system. GW2 and Neverwinter have already done it. Go run a dungeon in GW2 and tell me how you like it. We can only hope that EQN does it better. None of us have played it so we can only speculate, but the details that are coming out don't sound good at all

[webrunner5]

When you have to damn near go out in the audience and jack people off to get them to clap at your presentation that tells you a lot right there. All I needed to see.

[Razdeline]

I want hallywack mage!

[Gaffin Deeppockets]

Lol yah no one even wanted to clap.

[t0lkien]

That was the first thing I noticed too! He was talking up the screenshots and lighting, and the crowd was totally underwhelmed. Kinda embarrassing TBH. Needed more Balmer.

[Loli Pops]

If they continue on this path I half expect Lord Nagafen to karate kick you in the face and do a backflip somersault teleport into a street fighter hyuuken, all while outbidding you on that tower you are trying to buy on the auction house, which looks strangely like a phallic object.

[Rogean]

Let's consolidate into a single thread for the game, with civil discussion.

I just read this article:

http://www.reddit.com/r/EQNext/comments/1jm875/talked_to_darrin_lead_game_design_at_the_pool/

And I came at this part:

Crafting was compared to SWG, but better

[EchoedTruth]

Let's consolidate into a single thread for the game, with civil discussion.

I just read this article:

http://www.reddit.com/r/EQNext/comments/1jm875/talked_to_darrin_lead_game_design_at_the_pool/

And I came at this part:

Same here, pal

[Anderdale]

im sad to read that everything is bind on equip (or pickup)

wow did not see this... that kills it for me!

I am going to try it out but so far i am more disappointed than not.

[Calibix]

not really

UO you have specific builds that you either do or you're gimped.

I imagine the same goes for SWG.

I played a ton of UO. Please elaborate on what specific builds you did that gimped you because there weren't any (at least when I played). Every melee build was viable, magic was viable, taming was viable. You had to make dedicated characters if you wanted to craft or treasure hunt, but outside of that anything you chose to do would have worked.

Now if your talking taking 50 in fencing and 50 in swordmanship and saying that your gimped, your just a retard for not understanding how the game worked. Why would you ever choose to be half as good at two things instead of the best at one.

Stand by former statements. P99 no lifers will defend EQ (Don't get me wrong, I fucking love EQ, or you wouldn't see me here) until its deathbed as the end all be all, but in reality, its really no different than most modern mmo's outside of a severe death penalty, stale combat, shitty graphics, and nostalgia.

[Calibix]

When you have to damn near go out in the audience and jack people off to get them to clap at your presentation that tells you a lot right there. All I needed to see.

Rose colored glasses bro. Your avatar fools no one.

ITS NOT P99 THEREFORE IT MUST SUCK.

[Calibix]

Oh and all you whiners about multi classing. So it comes down to only certain builds are viable is your complaint. IE making them "classes". God you guys are dumb.

I'm drunk, sorry for the bluntness!

[t0lkien]

Calibix, you might get more traction if you forgo the empty ad hominems and refrain from abusing anyone who doesn't agree with you just because they don't agree with you.

That's a general life principle too, btw.

[Calibix]

Calibix, you might get more traction if you forgo the empty ad hominems and refrain from abusing anyone who doesn't agree with you just because they don't agree with you.

That's a general life principle too, btw.

I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion. They are entitled to it. I'm just pointing out how the biggest haters of EQN are hypocrites. Also, "empty ad hominems" lol. I pointed out flaws in logic over and over...

I have my reservations about EQN. I however will have access to the game shortly and be able to judge for myself. However, a lot of posts in this thread have been this... See one small statement, make huge blanket decision about game. My point is that people need to stop blanket hate on something they know almost nothing about (which is clearly indicated by the misinformation they post) and try the game. If you don't like it fine, that's entirely your prerogative. But don't sit there and say this game is fail because of this, when EQ/P99 really doesn't do anything different.

Stand by former posts. Take the glasses off. EQ is a great game, but its not the only MMORGP that will or has ever been good. It has a shit ton of flaws that the glasses-community never seems to want to bring up, and it resembles a lot of modern MMO's.

[t0lkien]

That's fair enough, in regards to the discussion. Those of us who don't like either the pre-announce rhetoric or what they showed have pointed out our reasons why. It's not just people on p99, the internet is full of disappointment and gamer rage about it. Of course there will be those who do like it, for their own reasons. Again, fair enough.

My own personal experience with Sony as a player and professionally is not good, so I can see what they are doing and where they are (still) coming from, and it's absolutely not for me. It misses all the marks that a successor to EQ should have hit in the first few statements and reveals.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong, though I know I'm not. It's good that others may like it. More power to them. Play what speaks to you. At the very least I hope that something of what the game does creates positive inspiration elsewhere.

For me, all I can say is thank God ..
|
|
V

[t0lkien]

However, if I may, I'd like to concede that the following ideas are actually potentially awesome:


voxel environments
tiered stratae of content (tying into the game's lore); i.e. fantasy/gameplay archaeology in a truly 3D world for the first time
emergent AI (I personally know how cool this could be, but how difficult to pull off as well)
releasing building tools to players (though I'm not at all sold on player content and the whole money thing is horrible)


It's going to take a steady hand to get it right though. That's all I'm going to say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ut4riV8MjJw

[Tasslehofp99]

When you have to damn near go out in the audience and jack people off to get them to clap at your presentation that tells you a lot right there. All I needed to see.

/thread

[Ulwyn]

"New" MMOs are nothing but everything that's already been done smashed together. EQNext will be dead within a year.

[Ellouelle]

That's fair enough, in regards to the discussion. Those of us who don't like either the pre-announce rhetoric or what they showed have pointed out our reasons why.
The problem I have is that I feel like a lot of the complaints are really trivial stuff. The devs have made the implication that they would like to stick to a lot of stuff that contributed to the tight knit community everquest had, and the general immersion everquest had.

While devs haven't confirmed no maps, they have made several statements hinting that they would like to have no maps.

Devs have implied open world bosses and haven't really talked much about instancing content outside of landmark.

Devs have placed pretty notable limitations on multiclassing, including the fact that the means of acquiring other classes and progressing through them has notable prerequisites.

bind on equip is a fair balance between being able to trade loot and not making an exploding economy in my opinion.

travel won't be instantaneous outside of wizard ports that are reputedly expensive.

just because a game doesn't have every single pain in the ass mechanic that coincidentally increased the sense of community in eq doesn't mean that the game is going to be devoid of mechanics that encourage both community and storytelling.

i get that some people don't really like the art, and i feel like using kerrans as a promotional race to advertise on was a poor decision, but to be honest with you im ok with a cartoony look so long as it's conservative, which it is.

big deal dark elves have horns i dont really think that completely ruins dark elves it's a rebooted universe that means some things change. i didnt like them at first but they've been growing on me.

big deal firiona vie isnt a wizard anymore i dont really care lets face it she was a pinup girl most people only gave a shit about because of rule 34 and nothing more. don't lie and tell me otherwise you know that's the case.

[Bantam 1]

Oh and all you whiners about multi classing. So it comes down to only certain builds are viable is your complaint. IE making them "classes". God you guys are dumb.

I'm drunk, sorry for the bluntness!

You don't get it....


Games that offer classes at least you know how many classes you get..... with multiclassing its like surprise 3 are viable..

Also there's a quote from Rift where they said "We won't worry about class balance because people will switch to whatever works...."

Yeah sorry multiclassing beyond final fantasy tactics (lol) has been and probably will be garbage for quite awhile.

[Rhambuk]

not excited in the least. The biggest thing that turns me off is the whole world creation, build a castle then sell it for real money... wtf? I'm not a fan of harvesting/tradeskilling so thats out the window for me.

World is destructible, kind of neat but completely pointless? other than walking around breaking stuff whats this offer? going to be fun trying to get around when all the bridges have been destroyed.

no levels? no defined class? meeh mildly interesting, i like leveling up and like knowing that in 2 levels i get a new abilities. I liked FF11's idea of multiclassing but it allows to many possibilities for a defined roll imo. I remember in FF11 Ninja's were the best tanks becasue of one rune type ability.

blahblahblah. Was a lot of fluff in the video which was the point i guess, be as flashy as possible to draw people in. I wanted to see some legit class mechanics/abilities/grouping/raiding. not content just to see what it would be like.

a lot of time before release, maybe they'll scrap it and start over again :p

[Millburn]

I think it's kind of silly to say that the destructible world has no point when a cornerstone of their entire freaking presentation was about layers and discovery. Look I'm really skeptical about it and that's putting it super lightly, but the idea is sound and I'm willing to withhold judgement to see if they can pull it off.

[Nestea]

Confirmed in a one on one interview with Dave Georgeson found at http://www.gamebreaker.tv/mmorpg/everquest-next-interview-dave-georgeson/ at 5:26 that because of there not being a vertical progression system (there not being levels in the game) there isn't going to be "end game raiding". This sucks IMO, while personally I've found myself not participating in raids more often because of time constraints, this seems like a staple of mmos, but more so a staple of Everquest, they really invented the raiding scene. As memory serves the mmos of 1999 that I knew of (asherons call and UO) didn't offer raiding. I think that will be a big turn off for players as it was for guild wars 2.

[HappyTr33z]

I didn't think the presentation was all too bad. The wow-inspired graphics are bogus but I can deal with that(other than that kerran model.... that was horrible), the action-packed-explosions-and-flips-everywhere combat was pretty bad, but it could still be fun.

The penalties of death, and the relationship between worldbuilding and pvp is what is gonna save it for me. If it ends up being as open as they say, and we can just run around taking cities for ourselves (our guilds rather :P ) I am gonna have a blast.

Starting a bridge demolition team as soon as I start lol.

[Phallax]

I played a ton of UO. Please elaborate on what specific builds you did that gimped you because there weren't any (at least when I played). Every melee build was viable, magic was viable, taming was viable. You had to make dedicated characters if you wanted to craft or treasure hunt, but outside of that anything you chose to do would have worked.

7x GM hally mage was pretty much THE build. Swords, Tacs, Wrestling, Magery, Eval, Resist, Med. Of course it other classes could work but this was the cookie cutter build of the game for the most part.

as for EQN Im torn on the game right now. Im going to need to see more before i decide if i want to hate on it or not

[Rhambuk]

I think it's kind of silly to say that the destructible world has no point when a cornerstone of their entire freaking presentation was about layers and discovery. Look I'm really skeptical about it and that's putting it super lightly, but the idea is sound and I'm willing to withhold judgement to see if they can pull it off.

Layers, destruction, and discovery.

So you come up to a wall in a dungeon and start bashing it, oh a hidden room!?

I'm not trying to be a troll douche but i don't see a legitimate decent implication of destruction-discovery, just more time wasting by destroying walls looking for things that may or may not be there...

now if im in a dungeon and the traditional path is to fight through 50 mobs, can i just break through this wall next to me and get right to the end boss? hard to really say much about it when we haven't seen any implications.

I still feel like its giong to be nothing but a wow that was cool factor...

[Fountree]

No levels, instancing outside of cities, no end-game raiding, RMAH where you can buy prestige and items instead of playing to earn them. What ever happened to one game world where everyone plays at once? Looks pretty fail tbh, might be fun to try but so many other MMOs are doing the pretty much exact same thing. Voxels and destructive environment looks unique, as well as a few other things. I will be trying EQnext out but I doubt this game will be successful.

[Verterdegete]

And no trinity btw...

[JonathanHancock]

Combat looked terrible. WoW style characters with GW2 looking combat add in the huge amounts of dust and crap so you cant actually see whats going on and there you go!

Couldn't have said it better myself. YOUR SKILLS ARE EVEN DEPENDENT ON YOUR EQUIPPED WEAPONS (DIRECTLY COPIED FROM GW2)

This is an incredibly lazy, incredibly shitty skill mechanic. Essentially you'll have experience every possible skill your character will ever acquire by the equivalent of "level 20" as by then you'll likely have acquired every type of weapon.

[JonathanHancock]

Basically like you said above, literally the ONLY INNOVATION IS THE DESCTRUCTABLE TERRAIN, that's it.

Everything else about the game looks seriously generic in today's MMO landscape. What a fucking shame. The game literally looks like WOW and GW2 had a bastard child which they abandoned shortly after its birth.

If they dont have some SERIOUS SURPRISES waiting I don't see this game being a success. Nobody is gonna leave WOW or GW2, after they've been playing them for years (or almost a decade) to start over in a game that's basically the same but with destructible terrain.

Fuck....I don't know what SOE is thinking. Did they learn NOTHING from the massive failure that was SWTOR? (A GAME PRODUCED BY BIOWARE AND LUCASARTS, AND FUNDED BY EA!?!?!)

UN-FUCKING-REAL

(the environments, specifically the lighting, look good though. BUT DID ANYONE NOTICE HOW FUCKING CHOPPY THE GAMEPLAY WAS!?!?)

[SamwiseRed]

Let's consolidate into a single thread for the game, with civil discussion.

I just read this article:

http://www.reddit.com/r/EQNext/comments/1jm875/talked_to_darrin_lead_game_design_at_the_pool/

And I came at this part:

swg crafting, excellent.

[JonathanHancock]

I can't believe anyone would try RMAH so soon after D3 demonstrated how it can oh, so easily turn out.

Well think about THIS:

Despite the epic, monumental fuckin FAILURE that was the D3 RMAH Blizzard made boatlaods of cash off of it; mostly because people are dumb as shit, and will pay out the ass for anything.

Hell, they're STILL making assloads of cash off their RMAH, despite the fact that literally millions of trillions of gold were duped, much of it online during livestreams, just a few months ago.

Fuck.....Just look at the idiots WHO LITERALLY PAY ***$25*** for a SINGLE League of Legends skin.

Basically --- Expect every online game that releases in the next 10 years---> FOREVER to include both microtransactions and an RMAH. Unless one of these services is SERIOUSLY DEFRAUDED (to the tune of millions of people's CC info being stolen) it won't stop.

And even then I wonder if it will, as again people are still using the D3 RMAH and not only is that game absolute garbage, but MILLIONS OF TRILLIONS OF GOLD WERE DUPED IN A MATTER OF HOURS, AND BLIZZARD DID NOTHING ABOUT IT.


TLDR? Item drops in this game are going to either suck balls, or basically be nonexistent, forcing players to use the RMAH. D3 proved that this method is a huge moneymake even in a terrible fucking game that's not even an MMO. Now just imagine an MMO where you have basically a 0.01% chance of getting a an actual item DROP, but at the same time there's an infinite number of them on the RMAH.

I think in the time I spent level my Wizard to 60 in D3 I actually LOOTED one single item that I equipped. ***ONE SINGLE ITEM*** in roughly 50 hours of gameplay. Yea, real fucking fun huh!!?!?

[Calibix]

You don't get it....


Games that offer classes at least you know how many classes you get..... with multiclassing its like surprise 3 are viable..

Also there's a quote from Rift where they said "We won't worry about class balance because people will switch to whatever works...."

Yeah sorry multiclassing beyond final fantasy tactics (lol) has been and probably will be garbage for quite awhile.

Using Rift as an example, if you played a mage there were roughly 6 different viable builds you would you use. 5-6 rogue specs, a ton of cleric specs, same for warrior. So you are flat wrong.

Also, what does class balance have to do with it? EQ is horribly unbalanced but your obviously in the EQ or nothing camp.

[Calibix]

7x GM hally mage was pretty much THE build. Swords, Tacs, Wrestling, Magery, Eval, Resist, Med. Of course it other classes could work but this was the cookie cutter build of the game for the most part.

as for EQN Im torn on the game right now. Im going to need to see more before i decide if i want to hate on it or not

Macer, Fencer, Archer, and Thief(maybe not to kill, but man they could steal your shit and sneak away like crazy) all viable in pvp vs Hally Mage. People just played hally mage the most because you could explosion flamestrike hally hit and do like 80 points of dmg off the get if you got good rolls. Those big numbers.

[JonathanHancock]

I personally thought the whole thing looked amazing and is incredibly ambitious. The fighting system seems set up to work across platforms with controllers, basically what I saw was an MMO that plays like a console game which I'm cool with.

My one concern is how raiding fits into this concept. Since they removed levels but instead use a skill tree system (w/o levels?) you'll still see player specializing I suppose. Also, why no view of the UI?

You're ***SERIOUSLY*** clueless dude. And you're precisely the reason why gaming (specifically PC gaming) has become utter shit.

For example, Diablo 3: The biggest reason it's a garbage game, dumbed down, meant to be played by anyone/everyone is because it was actually designed from the ground-up for console play. This was highly suspenct shortly after release, and we now know it to be true.

And of course let us not forget SKYRIM in which the UI will DRIVE YOU FUCKING NUTS if you play it on PC. Hell when Skyrim released, it was actually NEAR UNPLAYABLE ON PC. The game's physics were tied to its framerate, and locked at 30 FPS for the consoles. Disabling the built-in framerate limiter would cause the simplest of actions, such as opening a door or dropping something on the ground to hit you with massive force killing you instantly.

It becomes quite difficult to make a dynamically playable experience when trying to bring a game from the PC (and thusly keyboard/mouse) to consoles with not only vastly inferior hardware but very limited control as well.

[webrunner5]

All I am saying is this is NOT the game "we", that play on here. have been waiting for 4 years or so now. It might well be a big hit for younger people 12 to 15 years old. And that is good for them. And good for SoE. I am sure a lot of you playing on here were 12 to 15 when EQ1 started. I know my son was that got me hooked on this crap lol. :eek:

It is just a hell of a let down for me. It is pretty much WoW on Steroids. Sure they put a lot of time and work in it, and they have pushed things up to 2013 specs. Great for them. I just am not into Saturday Morning Cartoon Games at my age.

But I am sure a lot of you guys will play it and that is a good thing. Something new. I must admit I even put in for the Beta. :rolleyes: But I really don't think it is for me. :( But in the end I don't think this was the game we were expecting.

[JonathanHancock]

Because the game will suck Whale Shit is why. They are just out to make money, not make a good game. It is geared towards kids. If Sony gave a shit they would not have all the stupid as hell Armour that you can buy now. They want your F'ing money. It is ALL about money.

Oh yeah, you will be able to build a house anywhere you want. And guess the hell what. They will be WILLING to sell you online with your Visa Card a picture to hang on the wall. Oh, you want a birdbath in the yard, a fence, a sofa inside. Need I go on. It will be the same old crap over again. Mark my word. We have all waited for years for a game that is just going to be a glorified WoW.

Unfortunately I fear far, far worse.

I highly suspect it to be like Diablo 3; why else would they implement an RMAH knowing full-well that it was a major player in destroying the Diablo franchise?

I suspect that "good drops" will be incredibly, incredibly rare. We're talking worse than EQ1 Tstaff rarity. This is exactly what Diablo 3 did! "Make the good drops rare, so people will be FORCED to use the RMAH -- and then we'll take a cut of every players sales!!!"


Again, Diablo 3 isn't even a persistent-world game, let alone an MMO, and THEY were able to get away with this. Even after MILLIONS OF TRILLIONS OF GOLD WERE PUBLICLY DUPED ON LIVESTREAMS, with Blizzard doing absolutely nothing about it, people are STILL spending money on the game's RMAH.

[JonathanHancock]

Oh and I guarantee the advertising is gonna be 100% "be a part of EverQuest, the game that started it all!!!" etc etc etc.

Advertising that will be directly aimed at the teenage-hipster-still-think-WOW-is-the-greatest-thing-ever crowd.

When in reality the game will of course be nothing like EQ; but hey, the 15-year-old-hipsters haven't played the original, so what will they know right?

[Kika Maslyaka]

let me get this right: everything is destructible?
so after first 1000 explorers done DESTRUCTING, the next set of players who join a week later will find only a desolated flat landscape evenly covered with dust and mud, without a single landscape feature, since everything was already destructed? :D

[JonathanHancock]

All these developers do is make cheap shitty games designed to make the most profit, so go ahead and buy it. You're just doing exactly what they want, so instead of EQnext folding completely because its a shitty game, they will continue making bad games because people like you buy them!

Read: League of Legend's recently released Spirit Guard Udyr skin!!! This CHAMPION RESKIN CAN BE YOURS, FOR THE LOW-LOW PRICE OF JUST $25!!!!

(this is NOT a joke - the skin really DOES cost $25)

[liveitup1216]

let me get this right: everything is destructible?
so after first 1000 explorers done DESTRUCTING, the next set of players who join a week later will find only a desolated flat landscape evenly covered with dust and mud, without a single landscape feature, since everything was already destructed? :D

General things will regenerate on their own, or can be rebuilt by players. Important/lore types of things will be only destructible to a certain degree to avoid your situation.

[Midgeon]

PRAISE THULE! His Legion Spits On Those In Alternate Dimensions.

[Nuk3Afr1ca]

I think we all know with the things they're attempting to do, this game is either going to be great, or a complete disaster, with probably 70% chance leaning towards disaster.

[Suirad]

Don't knock it till you try it?

Lot of hate here for this game,
personally I will wait till I play till I make a judgement.

Looks interesting to me.
(Started playing Everquest 1 in 1999)

[Kesulos]

for all the hate about the d3 rmah... i love it .. i made over a thousand dollars the first month and then quit lol

[JonathanHancock]

I really hope they do skills better than GW2. The limiting to a max of 8 skills like GW2 is what has me most worried gameplay wise. GW2 allows you to customize here and there, using SOMETIMES INTERESTING skill paths, but I find that generally by level 30 I have effectively all the major skills that I'm gonna acquire for this character.

An example of the more interesting/varied build paths would definitely be the Engineer -- prolly my favorite toon over there. Certain build paths that TOTALLY change the playstyle, and most importantly the FEELING OF PLAYING, that class.

If EQN can nail this, with all of the "40 classes," then the game may have serious hope. I love how the term "WOW killer" has basically fallen out the vernacular, LOL!!!! It's simply no longer said about any MMO!!!

[LordSterben]

I love how the term "WOW killer" has basically fallen out the vernacular, LOL!!!! It's simply no longer said about any MMO!!!

There's no glory in killing something that's already killing itself.

I would love for gamers to boycott the myriad crappy MMOs to make a point but it will never happen. Gamers will keep buying them out of curiosity because "maybe this one will be better." They know everyone wants to be on the ground floor IF it's a success so there will always be huge launch numbers.

[liveitup1216]

I was extremely skeptical, the multiclass announcements and animations made me throw up in my mouth as well. But the more they talk about how those things work that it takes lots of time and your race matters and your personal factions matter and the no quest log or direction feels a lot like EQ1. The things you do having hidden parameters that stick with your character sounds phenomenal.

Lot's of talk about no hand holding, no wiki's, meaningful death mechanics. They already have said those gameplay clips were beefed up over the top non-realistic play to show off the engine etc.

I'm sold on their ideas, I'm leery of how long it will take to or if they even can/will implement it all.

[TarukShmaruk]

Read: League of Legend's recently released Spirit Guard Udyr skin!!! This CHAMPION RESKIN CAN BE YOURS, FOR THE LOW-LOW PRICE OF JUST $25!!!!

(this is NOT a joke - the skin really DOES cost $25)

Uh you realize that it's a theme skin right?

It includes new spell effects and animations, four model evolutions based on the character stance, and new effects when killing things?

[Tiggles]

I was extremely skeptical, the multiclass announcements and animations made me throw up in my mouth as well. But the more they talk about how those things work that it takes lots of time and your race matters and your personal factions matter and the no quest log or direction feels a lot like EQ1. The things you do having hidden parameters that stick with your character sounds phenomenal.

Lot's of talk about no hand holding, no wiki's, meaningful death mechanics. They already have said those gameplay clips were beefed up over the top non-realistic play to show off the engine etc.

I'm sold on their ideas, I'm leery of how long it will take to or if they even can/will implement it all.


They have absolutely nothing done everything I heard them say was buzz speak and/or generalities.

A lot can change for the better or the worse.

I'm cautiously optimistic

[LordSterben]

But it's so much cooler to be recklessly pessimistic.

[liveitup1216]

They have absolutely nothing done everything I heard them say was buzz speak and/or generalities.

A lot can change for the better or the worse.

I'm cautiously optimistic

Yeah, I'm absolutely in love with the game they're talking about. The game they deliver is all I'm worried about.

[khanable]

I played a ton of UO. Please elaborate on what specific builds you did that gimped you because there weren't any (at least when I played). Every melee build was viable, magic was viable, taming was viable. You had to make dedicated characters if you wanted to craft or treasure hunt, but outside of that anything you chose to do would have worked.

You just proved my point. You had a specific set of skills you needed to be a warrior type, a bard type, and magic type, etc. Deviation from those resulted in a gimped character. You either had the template everyone was using for that type of class, or you were gimped or very role specific.

For example, a warrior type used:

-swords/fencing/maces skill (pick one)
-anatomy
-tactics
-magic resist
-healing
-magic
-parry/lumberjack (for 2h swords or something)

with 100str 90dex 35int (making you a mostly shit magic user that couldn't really do much of anything with it other than port yourself around)

iirc, that was the standard warrior type template (it's been like 14 years). Replace any of those with say, taming, and you're gimped.

Taming required it's own set of skills that you needed to max for it to be good. No combination of melee/taming was ever good. Hally (sword) mages were only somewhat decent in the early game, but after that, there were no good warrior-mage type builds.

This is why in UO people had multiple toons out the ass.

Want to dominate PVE type shit and get lots of gold? Bard type. Nothing else came close. There was 1 template that was basically used to excel at PVE shit. Everyone and their mother used the provocation-bard template as the standard PVE farming template.

What made UO great wasn't the way it did its skills - it was the layout of the entire game and the reliance you had on other players. No one would fish up high level treasure maps and then go clear out that dungeon with the same character, because that character would have been gimped.

Now remember, UO was a true sandbox where players actually controlled almost everything in the world. People played specific builds because they were NECESSARY for the world to continue. Carpenters furnished houses. PVE farmers farmed rares to sell in their merchant houses. Fisherman/cartographers farmed rares/maps for the pve people to go hunt treasure. Material collectors would farm materials to sell to the crafts people, who created armor and weapons for the pve farmers. Cooking people bought fish and meats from the fisherman/material collectors to make food (since it wasn't really avail in bulk from merchants). Everything was interconnected.

Modern MMO's we don't really see that - and unless EQN requires everyone to rely on everyone else in a very deep manner (I HIGHLY doubt it but am very hopeful), we're going to see 1-2 builds that going to be the 'best' at PVE stuff because not much else will really matter.

[Kender]

when sony first released star wars galaxies, it came with simply the best crafting system ever seen in any mmo to that point, or since. If EQ Next has as much attention to detail as that had it will be fantastic

Everything that was crafted used resources of varying quality. 2 T21 rifles made by the same person but not in a factory will probably have different stats. 2 rifles made by different people might have vastly different stats depending on the quality of resources that went into the manufacture

it meant that people who wanted to just craft could do so, and often their products were the best quality and in demand. If you put the time in to gather the best of everything (or pay people to go get them / buy of suppliers) then your product benefitted.

[JonathanHancock]

Uh you realize that it's a theme skin right?

It includes new spell effects and animations, four model evolutions based on the character stance, and new effects when killing things?

Torchlight 2, ya know the....whole game....cost $20 on release.

All these microtrans games have ridiculous prices let's be honest here

[Phallax]

You just proved my point. You had a specific set of skills you needed to be a warrior type, a bard type, and magic type, etc. Deviation from those resulted in a gimped character. You either had the template everyone was using for that type of class, or you were gimped or very role specific.

For example, a warrior type used:

-swords/fencing/maces skill (pick one)
-anatomy
-tactics
-magic resist
-healing
-magic
-parry/lumberjack (for 2h swords or something)

with 100str 90dex 35int (making you a mostly shit magic user that couldn't really do much of anything with it other than port yourself around)

iirc, that was the standard warrior type template (it's been like 14 years). Replace any of those with say, taming, and you're gimped.

Taming required it's own set of skills that you needed to max for it to be good. No combination of melee/taming was ever good. Hally (sword) mages were only somewhat decent in the early game, but after that, there were no good warrior-mage type builds.

This is why in UO people had multiple toons out the ass.

Want to dominate PVE type shit and get lots of gold? Bard type. Nothing else came close. There was 1 template that was basically used to excel at PVE shit. Everyone and their mother used the provocation-bard template as the standard PVE farming template.

What made UO great wasn't the way it did its skills - it was the layout of the entire game and the reliance you had on other players. No one would fish up high level treasure maps and then go clear out that dungeon with the same character, because that character would have been gimped.

Now remember, UO was a true sandbox where players actually controlled almost everything in the world. People played specific builds because they were NECESSARY for the world to continue. Carpenters furnished houses. PVE farmers farmed rares to sell in their merchant houses. Fisherman/cartographers farmed rares/maps for the pve people to go hunt treasure. Material collectors would farm materials to sell to the crafts people, who created armor and weapons for the pve farmers. Cooking people bought fish and meats from the fisherman/material collectors to make food (since it wasn't really avail in bulk from merchants). Everything was interconnected.

Modern MMO's we don't really see that - and unless EQN requires everyone to rely on everyone else in a very deep manner (I HIGHLY doubt it but am very hopeful), we're going to see 1-2 builds that going to be the 'best' at PVE stuff because not much else will really matter.

I would actually love to see a modern day EQ/UO mix game.

[khanable]

I would actually love to see a modern day EQ/UO mix game.

You and me both

[SCB]

Well think about THIS:


I snipped a bunch of shit that's just you rambling incoherently. You don't seem to understand how F2P models work, or what "selling power" is/amounts to. D3 didn't invent the RMAH - D2 did. D3 made it legitimate so people got scammed less. The Diablo crowd is a bunch of idiots that buy items, period, because they have some bizarre idea of what the game is "supposed" to be and they skip the entirety of the actual game to get to that point.

Real F2P games don't function in that way. LoL doesn't function in that way. None of your idiotic rambling means anything other that "ME NO LIKEY. ME MAD" and no one gives a shit. Odds are strong this game would not sell power, but rather would sell cosmetic things like other F2P MMOs sell, and possibly monthly dungeon/expansion content as well.

PS: $25 spent by complete strangers on 100%-optional content really seems to have upset you. Sorry you're poor bro.

[liveitup1216]

and unless EQN requires everyone to rely on everyone else in a very deep manner (I HIGHLY doubt it but am very hopeful), we're going to see 1-2 builds that going to be the 'best' at PVE stuff because not much else will really matter.

To me this all hinges on how truly emergent the AI is. They state over and over regarding combat balance etc that if only a handful of builds are dominant, the AI will learn to react and counter it.

Truly adaptive AI would require different flavors of combat dynamics to succeed in the upper tiers. If they pull off this new AI, a group of players all using the same 1-3 builds would be effective at first until the AI changes their tactic and rolls you all for being too similar.

At least this is my hope.

[Kender]

To me this all hinges on how truly emergent the AI is. They state over and over regarding combat balance etc that if only a handful of builds are dominant, the AI will learn to react and counter it.

Truly adaptive AI would require different flavors of combat dynamics to succeed in the upper tiers. If they pull off this new AI, a group of players all using the same 1-3 builds would be effective at first until the AI changes their tactic and rolls you all for being too similar.

At least this is my hope.

that would be awesome. dynamic raiding too. strategy that worked one week for a boss might be doomed to failure the next

[liveitup1216]

During one of the Q&A's a balance question like this was asked and one of the dev's jokingly said you haven't considered the druid NPC snaring and kiting you. We keep assuming mobs will just run around and randomly target people like the mess in GW2. They're going to play closer to us, utilizing gap closers and CC and breaking LoS etc etc.

Also the whining about holy trinity being gone is just flat out wrong. They said over and over that dedicated roles are there still, you'll just also deal damage. He also iterated meaningful damage, not "tank damage". The holy trinity being required is what's being taken out of the equation.

The design goal seems to be play however you want, because no matter what you do this new AI is going to learn and plan and adapt to the things you throw at it.

[fastboy21]

In fairness, you could argue that the trinity wasn't required in original eq either...it was just the accepted best set up for most situations. There are many very workable group set up solutions for good players and equipped toons.

In and of itself, nothing they have said really means anything yet. The devil is totally in the details, and they are so far departed from the standard mmo template that we can't tell what the implications of these changes really are yet.

The unveiling really show cased the art style (like it or hate it) and the use voxels. We also hav a good snse of the direction they are moving in. Everything else they say is completely superficial or non existent yet. We plan to have intelligent AI...great!?

[liveitup1216]

Like I said before, the game they're talking about sounds like it works 100% and will be the standard for years to come. The game they actually release is where I'm holding my breath.

[Missingo]

I agree, this game is either going to suck complete ass (85% chance) or it's going to be a home run. Nothing in between. I am still not liking the Kerran character models, like seriously you could not have made him look a little fierce? Just a little bit?

[Dragonmist]

looks like a fluffy newborns lion toy! sigh wow graphics needs puntin yo!

[Rhuma7]

Like I said before, the game they're talking about sounds like it works 100% and will be the standard for years to come. The game they actually release is where I'm holding my breath.

Every promise made is another loop in the noose.

[liveitup1216]

Even if they only thing they nail down is the AI, the rest would fall into place.

[t0lkien]

SOE is trolling you all. The more you expect and hope, the more you are going to be disappointed.

[Anderdale]

im sad to read that everything is bind on equip (or pickup)

So does this mean that there will be no trading/loot etc?

The no levels and no trinity have me skeptical. No trading loot etc would really suck.

[kaev]

The design goal seems to be play however you want, because no matter what you do this new AI is going to learn and plan and adapt to the things you throw at it.

Well hello there sir! I've got this bridge in Brooklyn I think you might be interested in buying...

Seriously, don't buy the snake oil pitch dude.

[Razdeline]

I want to be a mage running around with a 2hs. Would be awesome and can't wait. Hoping these guys stay the course despite constant bitching of people with unhealthy addictions to trinity system

[Faerie]

Can anyone provide links to them talking about pvp? People keep talking about teams, and Sirken said they wouldn't even release with a pvp server but I have no idea where the info is coming form.

[liveitup1216]

So does this mean that there will be no trading/loot etc?

The no levels and no trinity have me skeptical. No trading loot etc would really suck.

Bind on equip to allow for trading.

There's sort of leveling in that you level the classes via skill pickups/unlocking and tiering based on in game actions etc.

Trinity still there, just not required due to the AI playing more like a tactics game than hate mechanics. AI will adapt to combat on the fly, one example given is druid NPC's could try to snare and kite you etc.

[Razdeline]

Can anyone provide links to them talking about pvp? People keep talking about teams, and Sirken said they wouldn't even release with a pvp server but I have no idea where the info is coming form.

They didn't talk about PVP at all. They are keeping it under wraps. Darrin Mcphereson was talking about the possibility of servers with different rulesets, using a "Hardcore" server as an example.

Also, Georgeson was talking about the types of crazy things that could be done with pvp in this system(in an excited tone).

So I would expect there to be pvp in some fashion when this game releases.

[Arterian]

It's too bad they didn't do the right thing and use the original EQ models as inspiration. Instead, they artists that created these were probably only 5 or 6 years old when EQ came out.

[Ellouelle]

It's too bad they didn't do the right thing and use the original EQ models as inspiration. Instead, they artists that created these were probably only 5 or 6 years old when EQ came out.

you do realize that the original eq models are barely more detailed than the pixel sprite era right

[Faerie]

I never understood the gripes about WoW graphics. WoW graphics had character, and were fun.

[Nips]

HATE how ogres look, ruins it all for me

[Anderdale]

Bind on equip to allow for trading.

There's sort of leveling in that you level the classes via skill pickups/unlocking and tiering based on in game actions etc.

Trinity still there, just not required due to the AI playing more like a tactics game than hate mechanics. AI will adapt to combat on the fly, one example given is druid NPC's could try to snare and kite you etc.

ahh yeah i remember what bind on equip is now. Makes me feel much better.

[fastboy21]

It's too bad they didn't do the right thing and use the original EQ models as inspiration. Instead, they artists that created these were probably only 5 or 6 years old when EQ came out.

The art director for eqn also did much of the art for original eq, so no.

[t0lkien]

I never understood the gripes about WoW graphics. WoW graphics had character, and were fun.

WoW graphics were awesome for their time and their context (and a really smart, elegant technical marriage to the main challenge of MMOs at the time - fillrate bottlenecking). For the EQ world they are fekking horrible.

you do realize that the original eq models are barely more detailed than the pixel sprite era right

The man said "inspiration". EQN's art style bears no resemblance to EQ's at all - which was his point (and is a concern of many of the fans commenting on other forums).

[Kika Maslyaka]

EQN models look like SOE was just bought by Disney
even WoW models look more realistic.

[liveitup1216]

Well hello there sir! I've got this bridge in Brooklyn I think you might be interested in buying...

Seriously, don't buy the snake oil pitch dude.

Still better than anything else in development that we know of. I'll keep an open mind and wait to see where they go with this.

[Rust1d?]

http://m.ign.com/articles/2013/08/05/everquest-next-classes-and-races-revealed

Races and classes revealed

[Smedy]

Some cool ideas with the minecraft like type style shit, but nothings gonna beat the classic eq

[NachtMystium]

Horrible art direction and doesn't surprise me at all. Gameplay looks entertaining to say the least but it will not be EverQuest as we know it.

Sadly, I think the days of MMORPGs being a niche are over. It got too popular. No more neckbeards who RP and like to drop hours and hours into a game filled with matured art style and direction.

P99 is all we have left really, imo. MMORPGs are now cartoonish cash cows like angry birds and world of warcraft. Oh well, c'est la vie.

[Kohedron]

The things I noticed...

-I loved the idea of creatures being a mobile group and can be pushed back or they can expand themselves. And towns can be lost? Sounds interesting IMO.
-I like the graphics, they're like WoW graphics but they're actually good and not as cartoony. Also the environments have a realistic enough look to them.

-I did NOT like the idea of each class having two weapon types.. I just don't see how it's going to be an upgrade from how it was in EQ1. The example he gave of "one weapon might be for wide clearing attacks and others are more focused" annoys me because it implies that the game will be more like Diablo where most fighting will involve just mowing down garbage mobs.
-I did NOT like how "all the content is underground, you just have to find it". I can pretty much guarantee that people will find this content after a month at the most, then suddenly there will be no end game.
-I think he said there are only 8 classes. 8 classes? C'mon.

EDIT:

Also, every single skill that was shown in the demo exists in Diablo 3. I really hope the combat doesn't feel like D3's, that game left a horrible taste in my mouth.

[timhutton]

I find it mildly interesting that 14 years and countless successful games later people are still griping about art styles that are not the same as EverQuest's and complaining that they look "cartoony".

Apparently some people missed that boat altogether it would seem haha.

[Ellouelle]

The man said "inspiration". EQN's art style bears no resemblance to EQ's at all - which was his point (and is a concern of many of the fans commenting on other forums).
What I meant was that EQ1 has about as much artistic direction as dwarf fortress.

[Trojanman]

I love the art direction. As a visual effects artist and television producer, I think the use of color and mood are very appealing. I think a lot of people that disagree don't know what they actually want, and were ready to say it was crap before ever seeing it. Gamers make poor game designers.

[Treefall]

I love the art direction. As a visual effects artist and television producer, I think the use of color and mood are very appealing. I think a lot of people that disagree don't know what they actually want, and were ready to say it was crap before ever seeing it. Gamers make poor game designers.

For me the art style just amplifies my sadness about the game.

Honestly, Sony CREATED the holy trinity...which was PERFECT for the genre and the basis of other games' successes.

They took what was a great design basis and changed it for no reason, and that's what pisses me off to no end.

EQ, WoW, and other games have been stepping more and more away from it - that's the direction modern games are going. I would argue, there needs to be a big shift BACK to it.

WoW had a trinity of sorts in Warrior/Priest/Mage early on. EQ's was War/Cler/Ench.

In modern WoW, EQ and other MMO's, there are tons of tanks, tons of healers, and tons of DPS - CONTROL (and true support) IS COMPLETELY and utterly gone. When I think of boring clones, I think of other games where the tank pulls half of a zone/instance while a healer spams 1 button, and all the dps spam their 1 aoe ability. That's what's killing games, not the fabled trinity.

They further destroyed the trinity by doing away with agro. GW2 did it, and it sucks, WoW pretty much did it (if you haven't played in a while...a tank has to be AFK for literally half an hour to lose agro after hitting a mob twice), and it really sucks.

DPS should have to throttle, and CC/support should be vital. Being a tank should be challenging, and a healers job should be easy when the previous is done well, and hell when it's not.

Raiding, I'm fine with gimmicks, but there should always be the core of agro, control, and moderate(/heavy when called for) dps.

Give me classes that can CC. Give me classes that can haste, slow, buff regen, etc.

Give me the trinity.

Then make the world destructible and influenced by my decisions.

Turning their back on the gold standard of what they created, like just about all modern MMOS, is what's killing these games...WoW clones are copying a game without a trinity or utterly destroying mechanics and making button mashing single-player games you play alongside other people.

[LordSterben]

I love the art direction. As a visual effects artist and television producer, I think the use of color and mood are very appealing. I think a lot of people that disagree don't know what they actually want, and were ready to say it was crap before ever seeing it. Gamers make poor game designers.

Your opinion will carry more weight once we know what you've produced!




Not trolling...just curious. XD

[Trojanman]

Your opinion will carry more weight once we know what you've produced!




Not trolling...just curious. XD

That's fair, but in the interest of /anon... I produce for a very good sports franchise.

[LordSterben]

That's fair, but in the interest of /anon... I produce for a very good sports franchise.

Understood...but it was worth a shot lol

[liveitup1216]

-I did NOT like the idea of each class having two weapon types.. I just don't see how it's going to be an upgrade from how it was in EQ1. The example he gave of "one weapon might be for wide clearing attacks and others are more focused" annoys me because it implies that the game will be more like Diablo where most fighting will involve just mowing down garbage mobs.
-I did NOT like how "all the content is underground, you just have to find it". I can pretty much guarantee that people will find this content after a month at the most, then suddenly there will be no end game.
-I think he said there are only 8 classes. 8 classes? C'mon.

I'll help you since this is all entirely wrong.

-Each class has a selection of weapons, so don't expect a wizard to be using a 2h axe or sword and shield or a warrior with a wand. That's what was meant. A warrior using two 1h swords will have different weapon abilities than a sword and a mace. Weapon SETS. And yes, bigger weapons like a halberd will have more reach than a dagger.

-Nobody said all the content is underground first off. They said top tier stuff could be above aground as well. The game goes above the surface and below. And the majority of it is procedurally generated (random dungeon generator). So if you dig somewhere and find a crpyt, you could dig there a month later and find nothing, or something completely different. There is "permanent" content (dungeons/etc) as well but its a smaller chunk of the content and will most likely be mostly endgame as well.

-8 classes you can choose at character creation, with the rest (including the other 7 you didn't choose) can be trained/discovered/etc in the game world.

Stop spreading misinformation.

[liveitup1216]

Give me classes that can CC. Give me classes that can haste, slow, buff regen, etc.

Give me the trinity.

You will. They stated multiple times roles aren't going away, they're just not required.

Did everyone watch different panels or something than I did?

[Anderdale]

You will. They stated multiple times roles aren't going away, they're just not required.

Did everyone watch different panels or something than I did?

People are probably making the same mistake i made. Reading all the negative stuff and not watching the panels and reveal. I finally have had time to watch the reveal and working on getting through the panels. I have to say I am far more excited now.

Still worried about the no levels part.

[Phallax]

For me the art style just amplifies my sadness about the game.

Honestly, Sony CREATED the holy trinity...which was PERFECT for the genre and the basis of other games' successes.

They took what was a great design basis and changed it for no reason, and that's what pisses me off to no end.

EQ, WoW, and other games have been stepping more and more away from it - that's the direction modern games are going. I would argue, there needs to be a big shift BACK to it.

WoW had a trinity of sorts in Warrior/Priest/Mage early on. EQ's was War/Cler/Ench.

In modern WoW, EQ and other MMO's, there are tons of tanks, tons of healers, and tons of DPS - CONTROL (and true support) IS COMPLETELY and utterly gone. When I think of boring clones, I think of other games where the tank pulls half of a zone/instance while a healer spams 1 button, and all the dps spam their 1 aoe ability. That's what's killing games, not the fabled trinity.

They further destroyed the trinity by doing away with agro. GW2 did it, and it sucks, WoW pretty much did it (if you haven't played in a while...a tank has to be AFK for literally half an hour to lose agro after hitting a mob twice), and it really sucks.

DPS should have to throttle, and CC/support should be vital. Being a tank should be challenging, and a healers job should be easy when the previous is done well, and hell when it's not.

Raiding, I'm fine with gimmicks, but there should always be the core of agro, control, and moderate(/heavy when called for) dps.

Give me classes that can CC. Give me classes that can haste, slow, buff regen, etc.

Give me the trinity.

Then make the world destructible and influenced by my decisions.

Turning their back on the gold standard of what they created, like just about all modern MMOS, is what's killing these games...WoW clones are copying a game without a trinity or utterly destroying mechanics and making button mashing single-player games you play alongside other people.

Yes.

I use to thrive on being good at my ROLE! I was a support(shaman) all through EQ and a tank WoW in vanilla. And yet again a shaman in TBC and Wrath. I loved being looked upon as being almost needed at times or being highly versatile with a support class. Every player being so called 'versatile' really takes away from the fun on a PvE stand point. For PvP this 0-trinity system will work beautifully but for PvE trinity is highly needed.

[Tiggles]

People are probably making the same mistake i made. Reading all the negative stuff and not watching the panels and reveal. I finally have had time to watch the reveal and working on getting through the panels. I have to say I am far more excited now.

Still worried about the no levels part.

I agree Watch it all before making a decision imo

[liveitup1216]

Yes.

I use to thrive on being good at my ROLE! I was a support(shaman) all through EQ and a tank WoW in vanilla. And yet again a shaman in TBC and Wrath. I loved being looked upon as being almost needed at times or being highly versatile with a support class. Every player being so called 'versatile' really takes away from the fun on a PvE stand point. For PvP this 0-trinity system will work beautifully but for PvE trinity is highly needed.

You can do that still according to the dev panel. You can play a highly specialized support and still be wanted. They're taking away the need to always have a tank/healer/support/dps through playstyle and the advanced AI combat.

If you want to play straight up super support you can. You can still heal, or tank too. Just not in the same way as "all I'm doing is spamming heals" or "all I'm doing is keeping threat and hitting cooldowns on big damage".

[t0lkien]

You can do that still according to the dev panel. You can play a highly specialized support and still be wanted. They're taking away the need to always have a tank/healer/support/dps through playstyle and the advanced AI combat.

If you want to play straight up super support you can. You can still heal, or tank too. Just not in the same way as "all I'm doing is spamming heals" or "all I'm doing is keeping threat and hitting cooldowns on big damage".

Guys, this is all spin. By their own admission nothing has been concretely designed yet. What do you think they are going to say? They are the only ones to ever think of or say or try this stuff through all the many pen & paper systems and CRPG games that have ever existed till now right? The entire world of combat mechanics has been waiting for SOE to finally step in and create the perfect solution. Because you can both remove roles and maintain them in the SOE alternate universe that exists at keynotes and dev panels. In this universe where normal logic and cause and effect apply, for those of us who have actually tried to build what they are confidently hyperbolizing over and watched others try to do to the tune of many years and many many millions of dollars and more than several now defunct games companies, it's surprisingly enough not possible to do and not do something simultaneosly.

They are going to trip over their own rhetoric at some point, and deliver a game that is one thing or the other (and from the look of their arcade/action combat graphics, it's going to be the other). That or it will fail in both regards and be something ineffectually inbetween. The rules of min/maxing and player ingenuity guarantee this outcome. Heck, their obvious reliance upon and borrowing from other games makes it inevitable.

I love the art direction. As a visual effects artist and television producer, I think the use of color and mood are very appealing. I think a lot of people that disagree don't know what they actually want, and were ready to say it was crap before ever seeing it. Gamers make poor game designers.

With respect to your experience, I couldn't disagree more. A designer is always a gamer first. If not, he/she has no business designing anything. I've worked with more than a few and some of them have sunk entire projects with their ignorance and total lack of context. I say the same thing about artists, animators, coders, and sound guys in games - they should all be avid game players. Artists particularly run the risk of focussing on artistic minutiae and personal aesthetic to the detriment of the game as a whole. Back in the day it was people who loved games who worked on them, and that love matters in so many ways in all areas of game development. It informs everything from gameplay mechanics to decisions on code structure, colour palettes, character movement, and whether or not to implement a cash store. It's not that way anymore, and it shows IMO.

[liveitup1216]

You've been on p99 too long.

Also, what pen and paper game has holy trinity?

[t0lkien]

You've been on p99 too long.

Also, what pen and paper game has holy trinity?

Have you never played D&D? By the way, the "holy trinity" is not a function of any one system. It's a logical outworking of combat and AI (particularly aggro rules). Players fall into those roles naturally no matter the system. You discover this quickly when you try to design something that actively removes them. Then you realize that by removing the possibility of those roles you have removed almost all player co-operation and combat interaction, and have either no game, a very small narrow one, or another type of game entirely.

[fastboy21]

You've been on p99 too long.

Also, what pen and paper game has holy trinity?

Certainly not the classic PNP games I played in the 80s and 90s.

The trinity is something we learned and then got hooked on from playing EQ and other MMOs. You never needed this type of system in live PNP games because the GM controlling the enemies could act intelligently.

Its weird how we've grown to love a system that was born from problems of online gaming. The entire aggro system is not conducive to authentic RPG gaming, it was something invented to deal with very limited AI.

As long as the AI is of high enough quality (I am skeptical that it can be of this high quality---prove me wrong SOE) than the whole system can go back to more organic PNP style combat systems.

[liveitup1216]

They're not removing the roles so, I still don't see your point.

[t0lkien]

Certainly not the classic PNP games I played in the 80s and 90s.

Wat? D&D invented the holy trinity - Fighter, Cleric, Thief/Magic User. It was less defined due to the GM moderation, as you said, but it was certainly there. Try building a party without a healer and see how far you get, or someone with high AC (tank), or characters that can help control the fight (CC), or dish out serious damage (DPS).

As I said, these roles are natural outcomes of the structure of combat. There are analogues in many games and real life, not just MMOs.

[fastboy21]

They're not removing the roles so, I still don't see your point.

The problem isn't the roles themselves; its the artificial assigning of the roles, rather than the roles coming organically from the actual play that is occurring.

In that sense, the trinity isn't the problem. The problem is the aggro system and low AI level of the enemies (that dictated the need for an artificial trinity in the first place).

[liveitup1216]

I've been in a session for over a year now at level 8 with no healer at all. We do have a paladin and a fighter though, 3.5 btw.

[t0lkien]

They're not removing the roles so, I still don't see your point.

Well, according to their current rhetoric, they are going to "have both". This is just not possible, as I've pointed out, and as they will discover when they try to actually build what they are currently painting in the sky with broad strokes of hyperbole.

[fastboy21]

Wat? D&D invented the holy trinity - Warrior, Priest, Thief/Magic User. It was less defined due to the GM moderation, as you said, but it was certainly there. Try building a party without a healer and see how far you get, or someone with high AC (tank), or characters that can help control the fight (CC), or dish out serious damage (DPS).

As I said, these roles are natural outcomes of the structure of combat. There are analogues in many games and real life, not just MMOs.

I agree with you...I think we are actually saying very similar things just confusing some of the vocabulary.

[liveitup1216]

The problem isn't the roles themselves; its the artificial assigning of the roles, rather than the roles coming organically from the actual play that is occurring.

In that sense, the trinity isn't the problem. The problem is the aggro system and low AI level of the enemies (that dictated the need for an artificial trinity in the first place).

I agree, I was responding to Tolkien saying removing the roles kills the system.

I'll agree the game hinges on whether or not this AI is what it says it is, but thats the only issue I foresee with the game. To say they're just lying or that it flat out won't work is just lazy.

[liveitup1216]

Well, according to their current rhetoric, they are going to "have both".

Huh? Both of what?

[t0lkien]

Huh? Both of what?

You can do that still according to the dev panel. You can play a highly specialized support and still be wanted. They're taking away the need to always have a tank/healer/support/dps through playstyle and the advanced AI combat.

If you want to play straight up super support you can. You can still heal, or tank too. Just not in the same way as "all I'm doing is spamming heals" or "all I'm doing is keeping threat and hitting cooldowns on big damage".

Everything I'm saying is replying to the substance of your own quote! Roles, and no roles - the subject of my first reply.

Anyway, way too many of my sig banners in this thread already.

[t0lkien]

The problem isn't the roles themselves; its the artificial assigning of the roles, rather than the roles coming organically from the actual play that is occurring.

Last post, but this is a really interesting point. I would say that on the contrary, designing into those roles is good design. If those roles occur anyway, which they do, it makes sense to provide players with tools to carry them out. Not to do so means giving players a bunch of stuff they never use anyway, and you end up with a weirdly unsatisfying, vague gameplay experience.

On this point, roles feed into archetypes (and visa versa). It's not just the mechanics you are dealing with, but the fantasy of embodying a certain archetype. The Ranger class exists because of the fantasy created by Tolkien in LoTR. The Fighter/Warrior is as old as mythology itself and in RPGs is heavily influenced by the Conan stories. Good class design embodies strong archetypes which create strong and satisfying gameplay mechanics, and coincidentally meaningful gameplay roles. It's all interconnected.

Games that don't create or embody compelling archetypes loose a great deal. These are RPGs after all.

[liveitup1216]

No biggie I'm just trying to find a way to explain that its not no roles and roles. It's X content can be done with all damage dealers, but is probably a lot easier with a mix of damage, controllers, tanks, and healers.

That's their design intent, whether or not they pull it off is my deciding factor.

My overall sense is they're trying to revive the RPG element of MMORPG, considering the genre is more like MMOAction and very little RPG.

[fastboy21]

Last post, but this is a really interesting point. I would say that on the contrary, designing into those roles is good design. If those roles occur anyway, which they do, it makes sense to provide players with tools to carry them out. Not to do so means giving players a bunch of stuff they never use anyway, and you end up with a weirdly unsatisfying, vague gameplay experience.

On this point, roles feed into archetypes (and visa versa). It's not just the mechanics you are dealing with, but the fantasy of embodying a certain archetype. The Ranger class exists because of the fantasy created by Tolkien in LoTR. The Fighter/Warrior is as old as mythology itself and in RPGs is heavily influenced by the Conan stories. Good class design embodies strong archetypes which create strong and satisfying gameplay mechanics, and coincidentally meaningful gameplay roles. It's all interconnected.

Games that don't create or embody compelling archetypes loose a great deal. These are RPGs after all.

My greatest concern is that by removing classes from the game you would also lose a lot of character from the toon, especially when you can respec on the fly into something totally different.

From an RP point of view, respec'ing on the fly makes no sense to me. You lose all identification with who you are in the world if you can just become something different in an instant. Getting to know other players will be very difficult imo.

I guess if the game play is rich enough you will get to know someone for how they play instead of what they play, but I'm skeptical.

[liveitup1216]

I'm looking at is as if you're a warrior and come across someone willing to train you in arcane ways (from an RPG perspective), you would be unable to learn it because you decided to be a warrior?

The change in gear/weapons is an RP conundrum, but abilities wise it fits.

Keep in mind their goal is that these things will take time and effort. You don't just grind and plug points into an ability tree. You have to literally train to learn a single spell, or seek out hidden groves and trainers and tomes that are randomly generated.

Also assuming your RP choices allows. If you're a unlawful you won't become a paladin. Some race/class/faction restrictions may come into play as well. (according to the dev panel)

[Ellouelle]

IDK: my opinion on the removal of roles is that it's about damn time.

The only difference between tanking and melee dps is which side of the mob you stand on. In terms of gameplay, you're basically just a melee dps who gets attacked, and the only thing that this really affects is what stats you choose to focus on when building your character. The last time aggro management was part of tank gameplay in any mmo ever pretty much WAS classic eq. Not the case anymore in any mmo since--shit, in wow, tanks literally do as much as or more dps than actual dps.

healing on the other hand was a unique role and to some degree i understand people who lament its' loss as a dedicated role but it's not as though support isn't a part ofthings anymore. It just doesn't consist of sitting around doing nothing waiting for someone to take damage while you stare at health bars.

[liveitup1216]

People who are lamenting it's loss are the ones who haven't realized it's still in the game.

[Tiggles]

I'm looking at is as if you're a warrior and come across someone willing to train you in arcane ways (from an RPG perspective), you would be unable to learn it because you decided to be a warrior?

The change in gear/weapons is an RP conundrum, but abilities wise it fits.

Keep in mind their goal is that these things will take time and effort. You don't just grind and plug points into an ability tree. You have to literally train to learn a single spell, or seek out hidden groves and trainers and tomes that are randomly generated.

Also assuming your RP choices allows. If you're a unlawful you won't become a paladin. Some race/class/faction restrictions may come into play as well. (according to the dev panel)

This

[Ellouelle]

People who are lamenting it's loss are the ones who haven't realized it's still in the game.

really all they have to do is make it so that as a plate class defensive gearing scales well. boom, done. if done correctly, defensive gearing may afford you the ability to dodge less hostile attacks and thereby increase dps because you can sit and burn a lot more than someone who has to run around dodging shit.

boom youre a tank.