So how about that Zimmerman trial?

[Kagatob]

http://sadhillnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/trayvon-martin-photo-media-george-zimmerman-photo-bias-sad-hill-news2.jpg

[r00t]

GZ american hero. did what he had to do to defend his life, and thats the american way

needs Free Zimmerman bumper sticker campaign

[Tiggles]

GZ american hero. did what he had to do to defend his life, and thats the american way

needs Free Zimmerman bumper sticker campaign

[Sarius]

His story is CLEARLY bullshit. Read the court transcripts.

[Kagatob]

His story is CLEARLY bullshit. Read the court transcripts.

Yet all of the evidence and every key witness says otherwise. What part of the court transcript are you focusing on? You're apparently ignoring a large part of it, makes me curious to know what jumped out at you.

[Flamewraith]

I believe that Zimmerman was defending himself. I have done research on both sides, and as it squares up it just feels to me like Zimmerman did what he had to do to survive. I think martin was a little shithead, who thought he was some tough shit or something, and George did what he had to do to live. It also seems like Martin's mother is doing everything in her power to make money from the case, and squander Zimmerman's reputation by playing the role of distressed mother of an innocent child.

[JurisDictum]

I don't think Zimmerman should be convicted of 2nd degree murder from what I've seen. There just isn't evidence beyond all reasonable doubt that he set out with evil intentions and then proceeded to shoot him unnecessarily. While I'm inclined not to believe his sketchy story, It's far from beyond all reasonable doubt that
1) Travon started the violence
2) He felt that he had to use deadly force to protect himself from death/severe injury
The state has a very high burden of prof to meet before they take someone's life away. So I say not guilty, just as I did with Casey Anthony.
That being said... He's probably completely full of shit. He assumed Travon was there to burglarize houses, because he was black and there were some black guys that were doing in the recent past. So he decided to go play tough guy, knowing full damn well he'd just shoot anyone that assaulted him. The problem is, he basically provoked that kind of behavior. Following some guy you don't know for blocks, not identifying yourself, then getting their face (after chasing him down...everyone heard him running on that tape).
I don't want this motherfucker to own a gun. I don't feel sorry for him about all the anger thrown his way. And I really people keep this case in mind when they decide to go play cop.

[JurisDictum]

I don't think Zimmerman should be convicted of 2nd degree murder from what I've seen. There just isn't evidence beyond all reasonable doubt that he set out with evil intentions and then proceeded to shoot him unnecessarily. While I'm inclined not to believe his sketchy story, It's far from beyond all reasonable doubt that
1) Travon started the violence
2) He felt that he had to use deadly force to protect himself from death/severe injury
The state has a very high burden of prof to meet before they take someone's life away. So I say not guilty, just as I did with Casey Anthony.
That being said... He's probably completely full of shit. He assumed Travon was there to burglarize houses, because he was black and there were some black guys that were doing in the recent past. So he decided to go play tough guy, knowing full damn well he'd just shoot anyone that assaulted him. The problem is, he basically provoked that kind of behavior. Following some guy you don't know for blocks, not identifying yourself, then getting their face (after chasing him down...everyone heard him running on that tape).
I don't want this motherfucker to own a gun. I don't feel sorry for him about all the anger thrown his way. And I really people keep this case in mind when they decide to go play cop.

[Barkingturtle]

I don't think Zimmerman should be convicted of 2nd degree murder from what I've seen. There just isn't evidence beyond all reasonable doubt that he set out with evil intentions and then proceeded to shoot him unnecessarily.

That's not the standard for second degree murder -- you're confusing it with first degree. For the second degree charge prosecutors just need to prove that he acted dangerously, without care for human life, and killed someone intentionally.

Fat boy is gonna burn - after he gets perforated by a thousand big, black cocks. And good, he should be made an example of and the case should be held as an example when we disband all neighborhood militias and take away the guns of common citizens.

[Barkingturtle]

And while I understand that most of you are white children, and thus terrified of black children -- I assure you if you reach adulthood children will cease being scary no matter their hue.

[Arclyte]

Z man is getting off and the prosecution is helping him do it

Trayboon "NO_LIMIT_*****" Martin and his fat, illiterate retard of a girlfriend get no sympathy from me

[Doors]

Rachel Jeantel basically buried the prosecution. I don't think he intentionally wanted to stalk and murder Martin because he was black, he probably was harassing the kid though and got his ass kicked. By a teenager which honestly is pathetic on Zimmerman's part.

[Rhambuk]

He should be burned at the stake.

if the courts don't do it some TRUE hero will...

[Alawen]

All trials should be decided by popular opinion before testimony is finished. Thy even have trials? They're just a waste of money. Let's just go with our gut feeling and get on with the lynching.

[myriverse]

He should be burned at the stake.

if the courts don't do it some TRUE hero will...
One can certainly hope.

[Sarius]

How about the fact that he didn't know the street name in his own neighborhood that only had 3 streets? Or that the medical examiner says that his wounds were probably caused by one hit, not dozens like he had claimed?

[Raavak]

Why the fuck people care about one black boy dying? Thousands have probably died since and you don't see that all over national television.

[Barkingturtle]

Why the fuck people care about one black boy dying? Thousands have probably died since and you don't see that all over national television.

Uh, I can only speak for me, but I have the capacity to care about a lot of dead blacks.

For instance: that dude Aaron Hernandez killed. Also: Mandela.

[Hasbinbad]

martin was an honor student with a 3.7 GPA

hella gangster

[Daldolma]

case is bullshit and would never have seen the light of a courtroom if not for a massive swell of racist outrage

nobody knows what happened and there's no way to prove it one way or the other. you don't take someone's life away because his story sounds sketchy.

if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a) zimmerman initiated physical confrontation or b) zimmerman did not actually fear for his life, go ahead. but it's been obvious for months that that evidence doesn't exist. it's not illegal to be a pain in the ass over zealous neighborhood watchman. and we'll never know if the kid actually reached for his gun or actually said "you're gonna die tonight", but it's reasonable to believe, and it justifies his fear and actions in self defense

[Hasbinbad]

that he followed martin while on the phone with cops is an obvious fact not up for debate as per zimmerman narrating those facts himself while on the phone with 911 as it happened. he obviously initiated everything.

[Hasbinbad]

so funny how threads like this get you fucking bigots to out yourselves.

if i wasn't so sure that kobatogs was one of you, I would pras him highly.

[Daldolma]

that's not illegal and isn't an initiation of physical confrontation

you don't get to pounce on someone and punch them in the head because they're following you

[Stinkum]

you don't get to pounce on someone and punch them in the head because they're following you

ia but u have to admit its pretty embarassing to be a grown ass man and get your ass whooped by a scrawny lil teenager so bad that u had to bring a gat into it

[Daldolma]

totally embarrassing. zimmerman is obviously an overeager wanna-be cop that got his ass whooped as soon as someone challenged him. he had over 100 pounds on trayvon. and he was so scared that he feared for his life

he's a pussy. but that's not illegal either. there is, at the very least, a reasonable doubt as to whether zimmerman was simply an overeager neighborhood watchman that was physically attacked, overwhelmed, threatened, and afraid for his life when he used a single bullet to defend himself

which makes this whole trial a sham. there's no eliminating that doubt. just wasting taxpayer dollars to eliminate the appearance of a racist justice system

[Barkingturtle]

which makes this whole trial a sham. there's no eliminating that doubt. just wasting taxpayer dollars to eliminate the appearance of a racist justice system

As a grown man, it's reasonable to doubt another grown man should ever feel the need to use a gun to solve a conflict with a boy whom he outweighs by a hundred pounds. Simply invoking "I was scared" should not relieve anyone from all accountability. Thus we have trials, and in this one there will be every attempt made to suss out what Zimmerman's mind-state was at the time of the incident. You may not understand the intricacies, but experts will testify to his behavioral patterns and whether or not what you call "overeagerness" was in fact something more insidious. Then the jury will decide if his invocation of self-defense is reasonable.

I hope that helps you fathom why we has trial.

[Ahldagor]

that he followed martin while on the phone with cops is an obvious fact not up for debate as per zimmerman narrating those facts himself while on the phone with 911 as it happened. he obviously initiated everything.

didn't the 911 operator say to not engage martin and wait for the police?

[Daldolma]

As a grown man, it's reasonable to doubt another grown man should ever feel the need to use a gun to solve a conflict with a boy whom he outweighs by a hundred pounds. Simply invoking "I was scared" should not relieve anyone from all accountability. Thus we have trials, and in this one there will be every attempt made to suss out what Zimmerman's mind-state was at the time of the incident. You may not understand the intricacies, but experts will testify to his behavioral patterns and whether or not what you call "overeagerness" was in fact something more insidious. Then the jury will decide if his invocation of self-defense is reasonable.

I hope that helps you fathom why we has trial.

that all sounds nice but it's ultimately incorrect

saying "i was scared" shouldn't relieve him of accountability, but given a context in which fear is reasonable, it does. case history doesn't even necessitate violence for a case of self defense, which makes this an open-and-shut case given zimmerman's injuries

it is not possible to prove his state of mind beyond a reasonable doubt. it is not possible to prove he wasn't afraid for his life, given available evidence. you can prove his "overeagerness" was borne of the most insidious of behavioral patterns, even that he was an outright bigot looking for trouble. but that's not going to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that zimmerman was the one that initiated physical violence or that he wasn't actually afraid for his life once he began losing the fight.

between his injuries, his account of trayvon reaching for his gun and saying "you're going to die", and his use of a single bullet, he has a compelling case for self defense. something in his account would need to be disproven for it to fail. that evidence doesn't exist

[Hasbinbad]

you don't get to pounce on someone and punch them in the head because they're following you
Follow me at night. See what happens.

[Hasbinbad]

didn't the 911 operator say to not engage martin and wait for the police?
yes

[Hasbinbad]

A great movie would be a white racist waking up black after a poorly aspected run-in with a gypsy fortune machine.

[Kagatob]

didn't the 911 operator say to not engage martin and wait for the police?

Nope. GZ implied to the non-emergency line (not the same as 911) that he was following TM, after a few seconds the dispatcher explained to him that it wouldn't be necessary, after a few more seconds he replied that he had lost sight of TM anyway. You hear footsteps, then you hear a car door open, then GZ allegedly got jumped.

[Littlegyno 9.0]

Follow me at night. See what happens.

hbb will use blob smash. it is super effective.

[Kagatob]

Follow me at night. See what happens.

Then you are as uncivilized as that "child" was. Sorry if some of us recognize this thing known as society and don't resort to physical violence and ask questions later.

[Littlegyno 9.0]

also, george zimmerman is a hero.

http://i.imgur.com/whs8q.jpg

[Hasbinbad]

Then you are as uncivilized as that "child" was. Sorry if some of us recognize this thing known as society and don't resort to physical violence and ask questions later.
Fuck your society. I abide by the NAP, and following me is aggression.

Fuck around and find out.

[Ahldagor]

yes

thought so. zimmerman is an idiot.

[Hasbinbad]

I support anyone defending themselves against racist busybodies trying to follow you.

Whoop that ass.

[Ahldagor]

A great movie would be a white racist waking up black after a poorly aspected run-in with a gypsy fortune machine.

kafka?

[Daldolma]

Follow me at night. See what happens.

almost certainly nothing, but assuming you decided to pin someone to the ground and repeatedly hit them and threaten their life because they were following you, you kind of lose your right to complain if they shoot you

[Ahldagor]

lulz to all this i a man an gonna defend me persons. do it and get sued, beaten, or killed. cops protect people from the liability they have too.

[HIYO]

Follow me at night. See what happens.

I bet it involves many various drive thrus.

[Kagatob]

I bet it involves many various drive thrus.

Zing!

[Raavak]

almost certainly nothing, but assuming you decided to pin someone to the ground and repeatedly hit them and threaten their life because they were following you, you kind of lose your right to complain if they shoot youRight. As a civilian you do not have the right to strike first. Unless its a castle doctrine state and you are in your "castle" you have an obligation to attempt to escape the perceived threat. Martin was a thug, though, and used to using a thugs methods. This time on a guy with a gun.

[Hasbinbad]

you kind of lose your right to complain if they shoot you
posterity

[Hasbinbad]

As a civilian you do not have the right to strike first.
If you're presenting a threat by following me, I have every right to defend myself from that threat.

[Daldolma]

hbb would make a terrible lawyer

[HIYO]

If you're presenting a threat by following me, I have every right to defend myself from that threat.

Why do you hate liberty so much?

[Raavak]

If you're presenting a threat by following me, I have every right to defend myself from that threat.

In what court room? Certainly not an American one.

[Littlegyno 9.0]

If you're presenting a threat by following me, I have every right to defend myself from that threat.

And Zimmerman had every right to follow a black male who is seven times more likely than other people to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.

[Barkingturtle]

between his injuries, his account of trayvon reaching for his gun and saying "you're going to die", and his use of a single bullet, he has a compelling case for self defense. something in his account would need to be disproven for it to fail. that evidence doesn't exist

I guess this is where we differ. I agree that's an adequate defense against a first degree charge, but the crime he's accused of is more nuanced. That he recklessly and willfully created an environment wherein he caused the death of someone else is the crux of the case. It overwhelms the self-defense argument. That's why the state filed that way, I'd guess.

[Samoht]

Follow me at night. See what happens.

i'd probably be gagging after smelling your fear

and by fear, i mean the shit in your pants

[Asap]

I bet it involves many various drive thrus.

OH FUCK LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[Asap]

Follow me at night. See what happens.

I bet it involves many various drive thrus.

welcome to sig

[r00t]

buncha slaves in this thead

when you're getting your head beat into the pavement I hope you hemmorage and die instead

[Barkingturtle]

when you're getting your head beat into the pavement I hope you hemmorage and die instead

A kinder fate than that frumpy prison-bitch George Zimmerman's going to suffer now, don't you think?

Seriously, have some foresight, all you would-be heroes.

[Hasbinbad]

And Zimmerman had every right to follow a black male who is seven times more likely than other people to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery.
actually that could probably be charged as stalking with a hate crime attachment

[Hasbinbad]

hbb would make a terrible lawyer

In what court room? Certainly not an American one.
I'd rather stop you from following me and be brought up on charges than let you cause violence on me in the first place.

Better to ask forgiveness than permission.

[Kruel]

some of you guys are retarded. It isnt a crime to follow someone. It isnt a crime to walk up to anyone in a public area and ask them what they are doing. The crime starts when someone brings things from verbal to physical. We live in a world that fist fights are turning into a thing of the past. People use to settle problems with fights and things would be fine afterwards. Sometimes the two people fighting would even become friends. Now if you fight you are having your parents sued , you have a record, and possible expelled from school. Even more scary is if you try to "fist fight" someone, you can be shot and it is perfectly legal if you were not the aggressor (turned it into a physical fight).

Its obvious that Zimmerman wasnt the first person to start a physical fight.. At least there is nothing to prove that. Zimmermans head was busted open from Martin..

How I look at it:
the kid was playing the tough guy and crosses a dude with a gun.

[Hasbinbad]

How I look at it:
the kid was playing the tough guy and crosses a dude with a gun.
Bigot.

[Hasbinbad]

every law is not just, and many unjust things do not have laws governing them.

[Hasbinbad]

You following a random black person because you suspect they might commit a crime is an aggressive act, whether this or that bullshit court would recognize it as a crime.

[Kruel]

Bigot.

racist

[Daldolma]

I guess this is where we differ. I agree that's an adequate defense against a first degree charge, but the crime he's accused of is more nuanced. That he recklessly and willfully created an environment wherein he caused the death of someone else is the crux of the case. It overwhelms the self-defense argument. That's why the state filed that way, I'd guess.

i think you're overstating the nuance. in order for murder of any degree to stick, the prosecution still needs to prove that zimmerman was not acting in self defense when he pulled that trigger. whether or not he was generally liable for the encounter may be supporting circumstantial to the charge of murder, but not nearly enough to convict. and it doesn't overwhelm the self defense argument.

at the end of the day, there's no way to prove what they need to prove. which is why zimmerman originally wasn't even going to be charged. when you see the prosecutor asking one of his star witnesses whether it's illegal to wear a hoodie, then asking the judge to strike his own witness's statement from the record when he says he believes zimmerman's account... that's generally not a great sign. they're grasping at straws because of the outrage from not trying the case at all

[Asap]

You following a random black person because you suspect they might commit a crime is an aggressive act, whether this or that bullshit court would recognize it as a crime.

Sounds preventative to me

[Kruel]

You following a random black person because you suspect they might commit a crime is an aggressive act, whether this or that bullshit court would recognize it as a crime.

the other day i had two people behind my house looking over my privacy fence. This was od and I was a little unsettled with it. I will say it didnt matter what color they were. They were both on opposite sides of the house I was trying to watch them both.

And yes motherfucker I had my beretta in my hand. With a "come at me bro" look on my face.

[Hasbinbad]

racist
That is another word for what you are, yes.

[Hasbinbad]

Sounds preventative to me
That's because you're a fucking redneck.

[Hasbinbad]

zimmerman had many chances to disengage with the situation, and was in fact directed to do so by police personnel. if self defense isn't crushed by that, this will be a travesty.

[Hasbinbad]

it is very clear that zimmerman sought a confrontation, regardless of who swung on who first.

[Kruel]

That's because you're a fucking redneck.

I have a hard time believing you live on your own. Do you live in your parents basement? When you have a home you are always concious of the people walking around your home. If they look like they are up to no good etc. (walking around with a hoodie in florida in the rain). I would wonder what the kid was up to. I dont think I would walk up the kid or call the copys but my mind would be wondering wtf he is doing.

It doesnt make Zimmerman a racist to walk up to the kid and ask him wtf he is doing. Neighborhood watches are suppost to do just that.. fucking watch there neighborhood. They had just had a number of breakins in that community.

[Asap]

Nobody cares you love all the little children, HBB. Get fucked

[Hasbinbad]

When you have a home you are always concious of the people walking around your home.
show me on the map where george zimmerman lives:
http://i.imgur.com/uLatbOm.jpg

[Daldolma]

again, you'd make a horrible lawyer

there is no "regardless of who swung on who first". that's everything. a verbal confrontation doesn't end with a dead body. it doesn't even end with a crime. you say fuck you and walk away. there's no law against confronting someone and asking what they're doing, because that would be a ridiculous law

you don't lose your right to defend your life when you ask someone what they're doing

[moklianne]

again, you'd make a horrible lawyer

there is no "regardless of who swung on who first". that's everything. a verbal confrontation doesn't end with a dead body. it doesn't even end with a crime. you say fuck you and walk away. there's no law against confronting someone and asking what they're doing, because that would be a ridiculous law

you don't lose your right to defend your life when you ask someone what they're doing

Would he have let Martin walk away if he said fuck you and walked off?

[Barkingturtle]

i think you're overstating the nuance. in order for murder of any degree to stick, the prosecution still needs to prove that zimmerman was not acting in self defense when he pulled that trigger. whether or not he was generally liable for the encounter may be supporting circumstantial to the charge of murder, but not nearly enough to convict. and it doesn't overwhelm the self defense argument.
l

Actually, that's what the jury will decide. You can keep saying there's no way to prove what they need to prove, but you're wrong. I mean shit -- all they really need to prove is that Zimmerman is unlikeable, essentially. Court isn't very fair. :(


the other day i had two people behind my house looking over my privacy fence. This was od and I was a little unsettled with it. I will say it didnt matter what color they were. They were both on opposite sides of the house I was trying to watch them both.

And yes motherfucker I had my beretta in my hand. With a "come at me bro" look on my face.

Why wouldn't you just talk to them?

Sometimes I see my neighbors in their yard and I say, "Hey Tanner! How's it goin' man?"

Other times I see kids shooting fireworks into my yard and I'm like, "Keep that shit out of my yard dudes!"

Why are you so scared? Do you live in a scary place?

[Hasbinbad]

no police record, honor roll, 3.7 GPA, walking on the SAME BLOCK where he lives.. MUST BE TRYING TO STEAL SHIT

[Hasbinbad]

show me on the map where george zimmerman lives:
http://i.imgur.com/uLatbOm.jpg

[Hasbinbad]

oh wait ..

[Daldolma]

Would he have let Martin walk away if he said fuck you and walked off?

who knows? if he didn't, he would be committing a crime. at which point, he is responsible for the altercation and martin is well within his rights to defend himself

but there's no evidence that that happened

[Hasbinbad]

around your home
show me on the map where george zimmerman lives:
http://i.imgur.com/uLatbOm.jpg

[Samoht]

zimmerman had many chances to disengage with the situation, and was in fact directed to do so by police personnel. if self defense isn't crushed by that, this will be a travesty.

zimmerman did disengage. you just have a hard-on for race-justice in this trial.

it is very clear that zimmerman sought a confrontation, regardless of who swung on who first.

sought confrontation by returning to his car! lol.

show me on the map where george zimmerman lives:

straw man? wtf is the point of this.

[Hasbinfat]

So what kinds of guns have you guys been stockpiling for the Great Chimp-Out of 2013, when they acquit Zimmerman? I've just got a .45 ACP but that should be enough considering I'm pretty far away from where my town keeps its black people.

[Daldolma]

Actually, that's what the jury will decide. You can keep saying there's no way to prove what they need to prove, but you're wrong. I mean shit -- all they really need to prove is that Zimmerman is unlikeable, essentially. Court isn't very fair. :(

you're mistaken. the evidence is insufficient. there's no way around it, and the jury's deliberations are secondary to that fact.

the justice system isn't perfect and who knows, maybe the jurors are distracted by questions like "is wearing a hoodie illegal?" I find it unlikely, but i suppose it's possible.

much, much more likely, zimmerman is found not guilty and this case dies after millions of wasted taxpayer dollars

[Hasbinbad]

zimmerman did disengage. you just have a hard-on for race-justice in this trial.
"before confrontation" implied.
sought confrontation by returning to his car! lol.
By following him in the first place. He was RETURNING to his car FROM WHERE?!?!?
straw man? wtf is the point of this.
It is a direct response to an assertation. L2 read.

[Samoht]

no police record, honor roll, 3.7 GPA, walking on the SAME BLOCK where he lives.. MUST BE TRYING TO STEAL SHIT

the lack of a police record does not make him a good citizen. since you're such an expert on trayvon, please tell us how many times he's been suspended from school for each of the following:

1) possession of marijuana or drug paraphernalia
2) theft
3) assaulting a fellow student
4) assaulting an educator or any other member of the M-D school district

[Barkingturtle]

you're mistaken. the evidence is insufficient. there's no way around it,

In my defense I haven't been paying much attention. I mean, I'm suitably prepared to argue this case on the internet but not if we're going to use actual evidence or testimony.

Anyway. None of this would have happened if he just spelled it Jorge. Fuck.

[Samoht]

By following him in the first place. He was RETURNING to his car FROM WHERE?!?!?

still chasing the straw man.

[Hasbinbad]

How exactly?

[Barkingturtle]

the lack of a police record does not make him a good citizen. since you're such an expert on trayvon, please tell us how many times he's been suspended from school for each of the following:

1) possession of marijuana or drug paraphernalia
2) theft
3) assaulting a fellow student
4) assaulting an educator or any other member of the M-D school district

Boys will be boys imo.

[Daldolma]

martin's character is a red herring

criminal or honor roll student, all that matters is what he did when he was confronted by zimmerman

and we have absolutely no evidence one way or the other. so it doesn't even matter what he did. what happened is unknowable. zimmerman's account is reasonable and there's nobody to contradict it

acquitted

[Flamewraith]

Then you are as uncivilized as that "child" was. Sorry if some of us recognize this thing known as society and don't resort to physical violence and ask questions later.

Gonna have to go with Kaga here. It seems like a very rash decision to jump someone because they are following you.... What if they had no malicious intent at all? You just assaulted an innocent.

[Flamewraith]

For those of you who aren't aware, Martin was not the angel that he is depicted as by his mother. He was staying with his father as a punishment because of drug use, and his twitter can account to him having a terrible "gangster" attitude. I do believe Zimmerman may have been a bit over intrusive on his investigation of Martin, but I think in the end Martin was a shithead who jumped a man when he felt threatened.

[Samoht]

How exactly?

the location of zimmerman's house is completely irrelevant to the discussion of where he was parked or where trayvon's aunt's mom's friend from college lived or where trayvon died. zimmerman's role in neighbourhood watch was just that: neighbourhood. not just his own house. zimmerman is not arguing castle law in his defense. zimmerman is not arguing stand your ground. zimmerman is simply arguing self-defense.

trayvon was a terrible person. he defaced school property. got caught with stolen jewelry. suspended previously for tardiness/truancy. the fault that he didn't have a criminal record is on miami-dade county for never arresting him in favour of making themselves look safer. they've fired people for corruption since then.

i'm willing to bet that the night he died, trayvon had intentions of further theft. wtg gz.

you just have a hard-on for race-justice

[Aeolwind]

That's because you're a fucking redneck.

You say that like it is a bad thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF1GiZCcL1o

[Alawen]

I'm not really following this case, but I'm confused. I can carry a gun, follow you, shoot you, and then the burden of proof is on a prosecutor to establish that I wasn't defending myself? Is all of the self defense evidence coming from the killer's testimony? This seems like really bad precedent.

[Barkingturtle]

and we have absolutely no evidence one way or the other. so it doesn't even matter what he did. what happened is unknowable. zimmerman's account is reasonable and there's nobody to contradict it

acquitted

Even as someone who has paid the attention little attention, I can see a case made that the older, supposedly trained Zimmerman should have known how to handle the situation without killing Martin. That's all it takes for 2nd degree murder. This is not CSI. You do not an eye-witness to contradict Zimmerman. You do not need evidence to contradict Zimmerman's account, even. You need to establish that Zimmerman knew he was doing something reckless which could lead to this ultimately tragic outcome, and did not take the steps he knew could prevent that outcome. If that's not how it's being prosecuted then they bad.

Or does the law say it's okay to murder if you first incite violence in your victim? I'm not from Florida I dunno.

[Barkingturtle]

Gotta forgive typos -- I'm day-drunk.

[Samoht]

I can carry a gun, follow you, shoot you, and then the burden of proof is on a prosecutor to establish that I wasn't defending myself?

here's the facts: that's not quite what happened. there was a string of break-ins in the neighbourhood, so they stepped up their neighbourhood watch. zimmerman started packing. he spotted one of the thieves and really wanted to bust him.

here's where it's zimmerman's word: the thief ran away and hid, and then ambushed zimmerman when zimmerman turned to return to his car. the thief started beating him and threatened his life. zimmerman capped him.

live like a thug, die like a thug.

[moklianne]

I'm not really following this case, but I'm confused. I can carry a gun, follow you, shoot you, and then the burden of proof is on a prosecutor to establish that I wasn't defending myself? Is all of the self defense evidence coming from the killer's testimony? This seems like really bad precedent.

Thus the issue with Stand your Ground.

[Verityn]

I think if Zimmerman walks scott free we'll see a lot more of these cases. Basically, in theory a lot of people can murder someone just by getting someone to attack them and then shooting them in the face. There has been a somewhat similar case where someone invited a neighbor over at night and then shot them dead for trespassing. Fortunately, it didn't work. Either way the precedence that this case produces could be very bad.

[Daldolma]

I'm not really following this case, but I'm confused. I can carry a gun, follow you, shoot you, and then the burden of proof is on a prosecutor to establish that I wasn't defending myself? Is all of the self defense evidence coming from the killer's testimony? This seems like really bad precedent.

pretty much. zimmerman is required to provide evidence that he acted in self defense. he doesn't need to convince anyone of his self defense though -- he just needs to create a reasonable doubt as to whether he acted in self defense, based in evidence.

and that shifts the burden of proof to the prosecutor, to prove that there is no reasonable doubt.

in this case, there's no evidence to disprove self defense

[Hasbinfat]

I'm not really following this case, but I'm confused. I can carry a gun, follow you, shoot you, and then the burden of proof is on a prosecutor to establish that I wasn't defending myself? Is all of the self defense evidence coming from the killer's testimony? This seems like really bad precedent.

When you word it like that, it sounds bad, but it's really the only way that is fair.

The prosecutors are charging him with second degree murder, so the burden of proof is on them to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was murder. If you are going to charge someone with something, you better have enough evidence to prove it.

If Zimmerman's team is able to lawyer out of the charges with dumbshit trickery, contrived self-defense scenarios, and other fringe evidence, that just means the prosecution had shit for evidence.

What would you do instead?

[Rhambuk]

the "justice" system is fuckin bullshit....

[Daldolma]

I think if Zimmerman walks scott free we'll see a lot more of these cases. Basically, in theory a lot of people can murder someone just by getting someone to attack them and then shooting them in the face. There has been a somewhat similar case where someone invited a neighbor over at night and then shot them dead for trespassing. Fortunately, it didn't work. Either way the precedence that this case produces could be very bad.

good rule of thumb: don't assault anyone and you don't open yourself up to that possibility

if you allow yourself to be goaded into felony assault, you're already putting yourself in a precarious situation. self defense precedence won't change that

[Raavak]

Or does the law say it's okay to murder if you first incite violence in your victim? I'm not from Florida I dunno.Unfortunately, some of this comes down to what Florida law says. Different states define assault and such differently. Hell, pointing a finger at someone is a physical threat somewhere I believe. The thing is, if Martin did knock Zimmerman to the ground at all, I'm afraid you could claim the right to use deadly force in self-defense about anywhere. And there doesn't seem to be much as far as prosecution witnesses to show that Martin acted in some sort of self defense. And the one "girl" on the phone with Martin who called Zimmerman a "cracker" in front of 5 white jurors isn't going to help.

[Barkingturtle]

good rule of thumb: don't assault anyone and you don't open yourself up to that possibility


Better rule: shoot that motherfucker and then hit yourself with a brick.

[moklianne]

here's the facts: that's not quite what happened. there was a string of break-ins in the neighbourhood, so they stepped up their neighbourhood watch. zimmerman started packing. he spotted one of the thieves and really wanted to bust him.

here's where it's zimmerman's word: the thief ran away and hid, and then ambushed zimmerman when zimmerman turned to return to his car. the thief started beating him and threatened his life. zimmerman capped him.

live like a thug, die like a thug.

Or (and too bad Martin isn't alive to say this), someone was following me, he didn't identify himself as a police officer, so I ran and hid. He looked white to me at first so maybe he had it out for me. This neighborhood is mostly whiteys. If this guy wants to hurt me, I'm going to defend myself. I'm tired of always watching what I say or do around the man.

[Daldolma]

Even as someone who has paid the attention little attention, I can see a case made that the older, supposedly trained Zimmerman should have known how to handle the situation without killing Martin. That's all it takes for 2nd degree murder. This is not CSI. You do not an eye-witness to contradict Zimmerman. You do not need evidence to contradict Zimmerman's account, even. You need to establish that Zimmerman knew he was doing something reckless which could lead to this ultimately tragic outcome, and did not take the steps he knew could prevent that outcome. If that's not how it's being prosecuted then they bad.

Or does the law say it's okay to murder if you first incite violence in your victim? I'm not from Florida I dunno.

you're ascribing a level of responsibility to zimmerman that has no foundation in law. even if he knew that being an obnoxious busybody could lead to violence, he isn't liable for that violence simply for being obnoxious. and even if he could have potentially escaped without killing trayvon, he's not required to try. as soon as he felt his life was in danger, he was justified to use deadly force.

[moklianne]

I think if Zimmerman walks scott free we'll see a lot more of these cases. Basically, in theory a lot of people can murder someone just by getting someone to attack them and then shooting them in the face. There has been a somewhat similar case where someone invited a neighbor over at night and then shot them dead for trespassing. Fortunately, it didn't work. Either way the precedence that this case produces could be very bad.

This happens across the country all the time already though. Any Stand your Ground law state.

[Sarius]

Lol I doubt any of you neck beards are even capable of assault, except for if they forget your extra nacho cheese at T-Bell.

[Samoht]

Or (and too bad Martin isn't alive to say this), someone was following me, he didn't identify himself as a police officer, so I ran and hid. He looked white to me at first so maybe he had it out for me. This neighborhood is mostly whiteys. If this guy wants to hurt me, I'm going to defend myself. I'm tired of always watching what I say or do around the man.

you do realized that you turned your scenario from self-defense to first degree murder when you claim you hid but still attacked, right?

[Hasbinbad]

the "justice" system is fuckin bullshit....

[Daldolma]

Or (and too bad Martin isn't alive to say this), someone was following me, he didn't identify himself as a police officer, so I ran and hid. He looked white to me at first so maybe he had it out for me. This neighborhood is mostly whiteys. If this guy wants to hurt me, I'm going to defend myself. I'm tired of always watching what I say or do around the man.

if trayvon lived to testify to the above, he'd be going straight from the hospital to prison

[Hasbinbad]

You say that like it is a bad thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF1GiZCcL1o
I'm not usually a fan of final solutions, but when I am, I drink Dos Equis and think the world would be a better place if all bigots were suddenly grey spots.

[Barkingturtle]

you're ascribing a level of responsibility to zimmerman that has no foundation in law. even if he knew that being an obnoxious busybody could lead to violence, he isn't liable for that violence simply for being obnoxious.

He's not a mere "obnoxious busybody". He's a lethally armed obnoxious busybody -- a distinction which does carry with it further responsibility.

[Hasbinbad]

He's not a mere "obnoxious busybody". He's a lethally armed obnoxious busybody -- a distinction which does carry with it not enough responsibility.

[Daldolma]

He's not a mere "obnoxious busybody". He's a lethally armed obnoxious busybody -- a distinction which does carry with it further responsibility.

no, from a legal standpoint, it doesn't.

the fact that he was carrying a weapon does not in any way impact his rights before or during the confrontation. he was within his rights to follow martin, armed or not. he was within his rights to ask what he was doing, armed or not. and upon being assaulted, per his statements, he was within his rights to use deadly force once he was being physically harmed and feared for his life

the fact that he had a weapon is mostly irrelevant up until he actually fired it. it doesn't alter anyone's responsibilities or rights

[Frieza_Prexus]

you're ascribing a level of responsibility to zimmerman that has no foundation in law. even if he knew that being an obnoxious busybody could lead to violence, he isn't liable for that violence simply for being obnoxious. and even if he could have potentially escaped without killing trayvon, he's not required to try. as soon as he felt his life was in danger, he was justified to use deadly force.

+1

This trial is not about policy, it's about determining his liability under the law (in theory, at least).

Under Florida law and the current evidence on record with the court, he is in no way the legal instigator of the crime, and even if he was, self-defense is still on the table as a valid legal defense.

Let's assume that even IF Zimmerman walked up and threw the first punch, the moment he expressed a clear desire to withdraw, he regained the right to use self-defense, which in this case, likely included the use of deadly force within the right of self-defense. In most cases, screaming for help on the ground fits that bill.

Fights can be thought of like a boxing match or a jousting tilt. Every single "fight" happens in clashes and stutters. The moment you have a certain level of separation (to be determined by the facts) a "new" fight starts. Yes, you can run up to a guy, punch him, and then say "wait wait I don't want to fight I'm leaving," and if he hits you back, he is also guilty of battery. It's an oversimplification, but the point is the same. Even if Zimmerman was looking for a fight, the law and the record supports an acquittal. Escalation is also a "new" fight. If someone slaps you and you pull a knife, you are the aggressor.

Or (and too bad Martin isn't alive to say this), someone was following me, he didn't identify himself as a police officer, so I ran and hid. He looked white to me at first so maybe he had it out for me. This neighborhood is mostly whiteys. If this guy wants to hurt me, I'm going to defend myself. I'm tired of always watching what I say or do around the man.if trayvon lived to testify to the above, he'd be going straight from the hospital to prison

+2 Daldoma.

It might seem counter-intuitive, to some, that you can't make some kind of stand, but the underlying policy is that you get back at someone by suing them or having them arrested for their crime. Your remedy lies elsewhere. Self-help and force is ONLY allowed to the extent reasonably necessary to prevent harm imminent to you. The record and the law both support Zimmerman's story. The prosecution seems to be failing at meeting its burden.

No one's really trying to pat Sheriff George on the back for what happened, but one must acknowledge the legal realities. No amount of indignation will change what happened. A lot of people are using this case as an opportunity to discuss what they feel are shortcomings within the legal system. That's fine, but when you refuse to acknowledge the reality of a situation, you make your side look less and less credible. If a person is truly interested in making a positive change in our legal system, they should first demonstrate good faith by pulling their fingers out of their ears.

[Rhambuk]

I wonder how many people are going to Follow zimmerman around at night trying to get him scared enough to "threaten" the follower. Then they can just pull out a gun and shoot him.

street justice

[Hasbinbad]

street justice
When the system has failed, one has no other option.

[Rhambuk]

When the system has failed

when did it work?

[Hasbinbad]

when did it work?
The first time it was ever used for someone who was not a white male landowner.

[Hasbinfat]

The system does work, it's just that it is designed to serve white upper middle class Americans and the ultra-rich, at the cost of everyone else. As a member of group #1, I wouldn't have it any other way.

Vote Republican

[Hailto]

Have you ever carried out street justice before HBB?

[Funkutron5000]

no, from a legal standpoint, it doesn't.

the fact that he was carrying a weapon does not in any way impact his rights before or during the confrontation. he was within his rights to follow martin, armed or not. he was within his rights to ask what he was doing, armed or not.

If, at this point Martin felt threatened, wouldn't he have been within his rights to defend himself? When can you begin using "self defense" as a legal defense for violence? Do you have to be physically assaulted first and self defense is fighting back? Or could other actions lead you to feel threatened enough, that without being physically hit, you could strike the other person and have a valid claim at self defense? I'm nowhere near being a lawyer so I'm generally just interested in the answer, and not making a claim on what may/ may not have happened in this case.

[Hailto]

Do you have to be physically assaulted first and self defense is fighting back?

Yes, atleast that is my interpretation of self defense laws.

[Hailto]

Calling all the young lawyers to make informed input on this.

[kotton05]

The thing is if someone is threatening you... The courts will look at if you exhausted all means of getting away/avoiding the situation.. Only then will capping a mother fucker be ok and self defense.

On the other han

The castle law allows you to shoot someone on sight in your home. Sad fact is you better kill the intruder otherwise you'd get sued lolz

[Daldolma]

If, at this point Martin felt threatened, wouldn't he have been within his rights to defend himself? When can you begin using "self defense" as a legal defense for violence? Do you have to be physically assaulted first and self defense is fighting back? Or could other actions lead you to feel threatened enough, that without being physically hit, you could strike the other person and have a valid claim at self defense? I'm nowhere near being a lawyer so I'm generally just interested in the answer, and not making a claim on what may/ may not have happened in this case.

he'd have an uphill battle arguing that zimmerman's pursuit constituted what he appraised as an imminent threat to his safety or well being. but theoretically, yes -- martin could make a case that he was defending himself. depending on the exact facts of what transpired, it would be possible for either or both of the parties to be acting in self defense.

however, whether or not martin was acting in self defense is immaterial. either martin or zimmerman could have reasonably responded to a perceived threat that did not actually exist. the question in this trial is whether or not you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that zimmerman was not acting in self defense. you can't. whether it's a case of insufficient evidence, genuine self defense, or tragic misunderstanding is mostly unknowable.

[Frieza_Prexus]

If, at this point Martin felt threatened, wouldn't he have been within his rights to defend himself? When can you begin using "self defense" as a legal defense for violence? Do you have to be physically assaulted first and self defense is fighting back? Or could other actions lead you to feel threatened enough, that without being physically hit, you could strike the other person and have a valid claim at self defense? I'm nowhere near being a lawyer so I'm generally just interested in the answer, and not making a claim on what may/ may not have happened in this case.

Caps lock for emphasis:

The general rules for Self Defense are as follows:

1: General Rule: It is a defense that the defendant believed that:
a) he was in IMMINENT danger of being illegally physically harmed by another;
b) the force he used was NECESSARY to prevent the threatened harm; and
c) those beliefs were objectively REASONABLE

2: Deadly Force: same as above but the physical harm must be an imminent threat of DEATH or SERIOUS bodily harm, and the deadly force used was REASONABLY necessary to prevent that harm.

There is NO general duty to retreat. Most jurisdictions consider the OPPORTUNITY to retreat as something to CONSIDER in determining whether or not the use of DEADLY force was REASONABLE

In short, the evidence in the RECORD seems to indicate that Martin was the physical aggressor (mere words are NEVER enough to make one an aggressor, there must be an OVERT physical act). If the fact finder finds that Martin was the aggressor, self-defense is UNAVAILABLE.

Note that it is theoretically possible for two people to fight and both assert self defense because there were two different "fights". Ex: I hit you, then you defend. I run away, you hit me, I defend.

The ONLY question here is whether or not Zimmerman's act of shooting Martin (which is what's on trial) fits within the elements for self-defense listed above.

[Sidelle]

Sorry, I feel the need to rant a little...

I'm so tired of people whining about how everyone is racist or a bigot if their opinion happens to be against someone who is black; whether it's criticism about Obama, someone saying this Trayvin kid was a fucking punk, or Paula Deen calling the man who robbed her at gunpoint a ******. l am sick of political correctness in general, isnt anyone else? All it does is divide us all further.

I'm especially tired of the double standards. Did you see that bitch on the stand for the prosecution saying that the words "creepy ass cracker" arent racist? And i love the big ass smirk on her face when she's saying it. And then a clip of Al Sharpton saying she was under attack on the stand. Fuck off, Al, she was merely being cross examined. Deal with it.

I understand there really are racist people and i think that's wrong, but jesus christ, it's like all logic and reason goes out the window for these retarded bleeding heart types and all they can do is play the racism card.

Btw, i say all of this as a proud wagon-burning prairie ******. I'm a 1/2 native american and 1/2 cracker female born on a reservation. I am as minority as they come.

[Hasbinbad]

Have you ever carried out street justice before HBB?
Fuck around and find out.

[Hasbinbad]

Did you see that bitch on the stand for the prosecution saying that the words "creepy ass cracker" arent racist?
They aren't.

[Hasbinbad]

Btw, i say all of this as a proud wagon-burning prairie ******. I'm a 1/2 native american and 1/2 cracker female born on a reservation. I am as minority as they come.
None of which prevents you from being ignorant.

[Hasbinbad]

Racism means absolutely nothing outside of the context of a racial power imbalance.

[Hasbinbad]

And BAM! Just like that: your hair is a bird.

[Sidelle]

None of which prevents you from being ignorant.

Are you trying to make some kind of post quota with your little one line submissions? It' s a little annoying.

And I think I had a good point in my last post so stop beng a dick. :)

[Rhambuk]

Are you trying to make some kind of post quota with your little one line submissions? It' s a little annoying.


rnf posts don't increase post count. thats not to say he isnt keeping a seperate record though

[Autotune]

That little gangster wannabe got what he wanted, he just didn't live from it like his idol half-dollar.

[Hasbinfat]

Fuck around and find out.

None of which prevents you from being ignorant.

None of which prevents you from being ignorant.

Racism means absolutely nothing outside of the context of a racial power imbalance.

And BAM! Just like that: your hair is a bird.

QUINTUPLE POST

http://i.imgur.com/K2cBo46.jpg

[JurisDictum]

Anyone who just takes Zimmerman's word for it about who started it is an idiot. Or maybe just racist. He has every motivation in the world to lie, and knew exactly the kind of story he would need to tell. And guess what...he changed his story many times after caught in lies.
I already said he should be found not guilty based on what we've seen so far. But to get all worked about Travon being a "punk" and how Zimmerman did nothing wrong is pretty pathetic.

[kotton05]

I'm at the Pizza Hut
I'm at the Taco Bell
I'm at the combination Pizza Hut and Taco Bell

[Hasbinbad]

QUINTUPLE POST

http://i.imgur.com/K2cBo46.jpg
LOLOLOLOL IT'S PENTA POST YOU FUCKING DORK

[Hasbinbad]

but amazing graphic nonetheless XD

[Hasbinbad]

i'm a level 25 butcher y'all

[oddibemcd]

Anyone who just takes Zimmerman's word for it about who started it is an idiot. Or maybe just racist. He has every motivation in the world to lie, and knew exactly the kind of story he would need to tell. And guess what...he changed his story many times after caught in lies.
I already said he should be found not guilty based on what we've seen so far. But to get all worked about Travon being a "punk" and how Zimmerman did nothing wrong is pretty pathetic.

Yeah, no.

People claim the fact that he didn't remember the street names to be a lie, but that occurred before the confrontation when he was still talking to 311. He had no reason to lie to the NEN and has stayed consistent. His accounts of the night fit in with other eye-witness testimony. His claim that he wasn't familiar with SYG law was corroborated by his teacher who stated that SYG wasn't referenced in the class Zimmerman took.

Meanwhile, you have that waste of skin Didi who lied about everything under the sun (funeral, age, name, what Martin said on the phone), yet people swallow her testimony hook, line and sinker.

Dispatch requested Zimmerman twice to keep eyes on Martin. The watch was described by the police representative as the eyes and ears of the neighborhood. Martin suffered no injuries besides the bullet wound and injuries on his knuckles consistent with punching.

[Ambrotos]

Street Justice by skype happened today. I still can't believe I live a 5 mins from this circus.

[oddibemcd]

Street Justice by skype happened today. I still can't believe I live a 5 mins from this circus.

Could not believe they were dumb enough to put his skype name up, but this has been a technology-challenged courtroom from the beginning.

The state pulled up a witnesses' twitter page where it was clear that she followed Zimmerman's brother. She stated that the brother followed her and the state didn't have a clue that wasn't the case.

The damn judge keeps telling people not to send out twitters. I have no idea what those are, does she mean titty-twisters?

[Kassel]

Do the courts in the USA really use skype? LOL

[Ambrotos]

Around the 2:50 mark it gets good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOy5RqOTBDE

[Frieza_Prexus]

Do the courts in the USA really use skype? LOL

It's no different than using a cell phone, or any other remote technology. If that state's rules of procedure allow it, there's nothing wrong.

I'm wondering if that judge will be pursuing contempt charges against all the idiots that called in.

[Ambrotos]

It's no different than using a cell phone, or any other remote technology. If that state's rules of procedure allow it, there's nothing wrong.

I'm wondering if that judge will be pursuing contempt charges against all the idiots that called in.

Sounded like she had no idea what skype was in the video. The best part is when the dude starts to laugh.

[Ahldagor]

skype in a courtroom....wow just wow

[oddibemcd]

State should be held in contempt for ending a sentence in a preposition.

[r00t]

Vote Republican

[Kassel]

It's no different than using a cell phone, or any other remote technology. If that state's rules of procedure allow it, there's nothing wrong.


seems a tad different when the public can "photobomb" a murder trail. In Canada we have closed circuit tv and video relays, but typically not used when a witness gives testimony at a murder trial. There is a high level of control over the system. This seems like armature hour, which is a shame for the man on trail and the victims family.

Why not just testify with tweets, the lawyers can tweet questions and you can just tweet back ! =D

[Frieza_Prexus]

seems a tad different when the public can "photobomb" a murder trail. In Canada we have closed circuit tv and video relays, but typically not used when a witness gives testimony at a murder trial. There is a high level of control over the system. This seems like armature hour, which is a shame for the man on trail and the victims family.

Yeah, the court was really stupid by not taking measures to block the interference. But because phones and such are allowed, this is just a natural extension. The issue is the sloppiness not the tech.

Why not just testify with tweets, the lawyers can tweet questions and you can just tweet back ! =D

This is getting outside what I know, but IIRC there's something about remote testimony having to be in real time if you're going to "call in."

[Ahldagor]

This seems like armature hour, which is a shame for the man on trail and the victims family.

my thought's exactly on the skype

[Ahldagor]

amature**

[Barkingturtle]

*moran

[Hasbinbad]

armature
spellcheck can't fix stupid

[Hasbinbad]

amature**
amateur ?

rofl.

[Hasbinbad]

you guys crack me the fuck up

[Hailto]

At least Kassel used a real word.

[Hasbinbad]

dont think he meant this:

http://i.imgur.com/JbMGRHd.jpg

[Hasbinbad]

which is why it is funny, because spellcheck didn't catch the real word.. which is how we know he spelled it wrong, used spellcheck, and picked the wrong word.

[Hasbinbad]

spellcheck wouldn't

[r00t]

wut bout grammercheck

[Hasbinfat]

I think the poor quality of our education system effected the situation

[Kassel]

I am not sure if i am being made fun of or the person who corrected me with the wrong spelling (while agreeing with me, thanks !) is being made fun of. For the sake of transparency i fucked that word up all by myself thank you very much.

[Hailto]

We were making fun of both of you.

[stonez138]

If an unarmed white kid carrying skittles was stalked, shot and killed by a black man for being in the wrong neighborhood the shooter would not only have been arrested on the spot he'd be on deathrow by now.

[r00t]

If an unarmed white kid carrying skittles was stalked, shot and killed by a black man for being in the wrong neighborhood the shooter would not only have been arrested on the spot he'd be on deathrow by now.

Not a valid argument since that would be due more to societal prejudice than the facts of the case making him guilty or not.

[myriverse]

Not a valid argument since that would be due more to societal prejudice than the facts of the case making him guilty or not.
Just WTF do you think is happening in the Zimmerman case?

[Rhambuk]

Just WTF do you think is happening in the Zimmerman case?

Martin wasn't just some black teen with skittles. He was a gangster, a thug, a punk, he probably stole those skittles at gunpoint and obviously was on his way to a black panther rally.

[Reapin]

Martin wasn't just some black teen with skittles. He was a gangster, a thug, a punk, he probably stole those skittles at gunpoint and obviously was on his way to a black panther rally.

Martin had a right to defend himself from a stalker. He was lost and didn't know where he was. Zimmerman failed to follow instructions from law enforcement and caused this to happen. Zimmerman is a wanna be loser cop and one way or another will pay for this murder.

[Rhambuk]

Martin had a right to defend himself from a stalker. He was lost and didn't know where he was. Zimmerman failed to follow instructions from law enforcement and caused this to happen. Zimmerman is a wanna be loser cop and one way or another will pay for this murder.

100% true and I hope so.

After the first line of my post i realized some may not get the sarcasm so i laid it on thick with the black panther rally.

Can't wait to see zimmerman murdered on the 6 O'clock news

[Samoht]

Martin had a right to defend himself from a stalker.

You're using the words defend and stalker quit liberally, and you probably know it.

He was lost and didn't know where he was.

According to whom? First time I've ever heard this.

[Daldolma]

zimmerman is going to walk, appropriately

hope y'all can deal with your misplaced impotent rage

[Gaffin Deeppockets]

He'll walk then get killed later on. Ez

[Daldolma]

highly unlikely

might even get rich off of his story and/or law suits for slander

[stonez138]

Not a valid argument since that would be due more to societal prejudice than the facts of the case making him guilty or not.

It's not an argument just an observation. Go o.d. please and make the world a better place.

[stonez138]

highly unlikely

might even get rich off of his story and/or law suits for slander

He will only get rich if he gives good head in prison.

[Alawen]

He'll walk then get killed later on. Ez

I think you're right. I'm not really on top of the legal theories, but a brief look around the net reveals that consensus from experts to be that the prosecution is blowing it and should have pursued a lesser charge. However, this isn't like Rodney King or Oscar Grant where there were multiple cops involved. Zimmerman isn't a cop, so he doesn't have that network of protection and vengeance, and he was acting alone. If he walks, I think he'd be well-advised to change his name and appearance and move far away.

[r00t]

4th of july sale at the gun shops, I hope you all do your duty to become citizens instead of statistics

[Malice_Mizer]

I find it hilarious that the same bleeding conservatives that claim that racism is over in this country and that we don't need things like the Voting Rights Act are the first to leap into purely racist tirades.

This case has plainly displayed how disgustingly racist this country still is. You get a girl who speaks English as her third language on the stand and every hyper-privileged white professional EQ player becomes the fucking king of England and its language. You guys are pathetic.

[Malice_Mizer]

4th of july sale at the gun shops, I hope you all do your duty to become citizens instead of statistics

Are you just trolling? There isn't even a single Zimmerman-allied commentator who's saying that it was a GOOD thing that Zimmerman killed Trayvon.

You have everyone from Casey Anthony's lawyer to the crooked cops that drug tested Trayvon but not Zimmerman saying that, "You basically stalked and killed an unarmed minor on his way home." Self-defense may be a technicality, but it was a horrible tragedy what ultimately happened.

Scenario: You're walking home one evening, some guy is sneaking around trying to follow you, you run away trying to get away from him and he persists. If this was a white woman killed by a black man, the court of public opinion would have already said, "He started the conflict when he STALKED HER."

[r00t]

No I am completely serious. Hi-point 380 $99, ruger 9mm $180... im gonnna be a kid in a candy shop

[r00t]

also I do think zimmerman killing trayvon was a good thing, before hemoraging to death on the pavement. I'd rather zimmerman protecting my neighborhood than trayvon stirring up trouble in it

[Malice_Mizer]

Zimmerman was stirring up trouble, by definition, when he stalked and killed an unarmed resident of the neighborhood who was trying to walk home from the store.

Are you dense? He did a BAD JOB at his super-hero hobby.

Zimmerman has a much more checkered past than Trayvon, anyway. Zimmerman's former fiance filed a restraining order against him because of domestic violence in 2005. He's assaulted a police officer before, which is why he was in anger management.

"Oh let's throw some picture up of Trayvon scowling next to pictures of George Zimmerman's superficial flesh-wounds. Big scary black man!!"

If anything, by historical example, the world would be a better place without George Zimmerman fouling it up. Trayvon had yet to beat his wife, attack a cop, murder an unarmed minor because he was too much of a pussy to defend himself like an honorable human being, and generally fail at life.

Sounds like you just really don't like black people.

[Reapin]

case is bullshit and would never have seen the light of a courtroom if not for a massive swell of racist outrage

nobody knows what happened and there's no way to prove it one way or the other. you don't take someone's life away because his story sounds sketchy.

if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a) zimmerman initiated physical confrontation or b) zimmerman did not actually fear for his life, go ahead. but it's been obvious for months that that evidence doesn't exist. it's not illegal to be a pain in the ass over zealous neighborhood watchman. and we'll never know if the kid actually reached for his gun or actually said "you're gonna die tonight", but it's reasonable to believe, and it justifies his fear and actions in self defense

So you gave examples of things you cannot prove to throw out any defense of Trayvon Martin then used more unfounded evidence to bolster George Zimmerman's defense.

You are a piece of shit. But that's not news to anyone.

[r00t]

Sounds like you just really don't like black people.

this is why its impossible to argue with you tards

[Malice_Mizer]

case is bullshit and would never have seen the light of a courtroom if not for a massive swell of racist outrage

nobody knows what happened and there's no way to prove it one way or the other. you don't take someone's life away because his story sounds sketchy.

if you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a) zimmerman initiated physical confrontation or b) zimmerman did not actually fear for his life, go ahead. but it's been obvious for months that that evidence doesn't exist. it's not illegal to be a pain in the ass over zealous neighborhood watchman. and we'll never know if the kid actually reached for his gun or actually said "you're gonna die tonight", but it's reasonable to believe, and it justifies his fear and actions in self defense

"You got a problem, homie?"

As soon as you heard that, you had to know that Zimmerman was just pulling crap out of his ass. Come on. He was just evoking every black stereotype he'd known to make Trayvon seem like some scary gangster or some such.

The 9/11 "Help help" call is also very telling. You'll notice that the cries for help immediately stop upon the gun shot. If you were Zimmerman, would you not continue screaming for help if you thought Trayvon was still alive, like George claims? He says he thought he MISSED, and yet it falls totally silent as soon as Zimmerman blasts a hole through Trayvon's heart.

Give me a break.

[Malice_Mizer]

this is why its impossible to argue with you tards

As soon as you give me a single reason why you're spewing, "I'm happy that Zimmerman killed Trayvon because Trayvon was up to no good anyway," and you can explain how that isn't a purely prejudiced statement, I'll recant all accusations.

I'm sick and tired of the conservative meme that, "Trayvon was destined to be a gangster anyway, so Zimmerman was just ridding the world of another bad dude."

If you fall into the defense that, "We can never truly know what happened, and the evidence isn't enough to convict Zimmerman of murder," then the fact that you immediately also jump into full-subscription of Zimmerman's account of that night shows me that you have a tremendous bias in this story. The fact that you support and indeed encourage (to the point of mocking Trayvon and his death) the whole-sale slaughter of a minor shows me that you're pretty rotten.

[r00t]

Good riddance

[r00t]

Doesn't matter if zimmerman picked a fight, to the point of irrelevence. Westboro does that all the time, but if you assault them they'll sue the fuck out of you. Zimmerman stood his ground like a true American hero

[r00t]

Not that I am even conceding that he did

[Malice_Mizer]

Zimmerman stood his ground like a true American hero

Oh, so you are a troll... Impervious to reason, tenaciously spouting the same talking points despite contrary evidence, head-in-sand mentality, willingness to engage in plainly racial bias but enraged by being accused of racism...

Also the same requisites for being a Republican. Odd!

[r00t]

I have my head in the sand yet you're still stuck in the false left-right paradigm.

[r00t]

Although I would much rather have a Republican generally. But I'm a single issue voter.

New firing pin for my 6 shot only $25 wot a deal

[Malice_Mizer]

Have fun in an America where your heroes cowardly shoot people they're afraid of. Fist fighting a minor isn't even pathetic enough for you. You have to shoot the kid in the heart for it to be truly heroic enough for you.

"Oh, that dude across the street is scaring me. Yes, I am in fear for my life. Open season to kill people for whatever reason suits your fancy and claim that you were afraid!"

I'd love to see the Zimmerman standard be applied to a single person of color. For instance, a black woman in FL shot a warning shot against her ex-husband who just got out of prison for domestic abuse and kicked her fucking door down. She shot it into the ceiling, the judge dismissed her plea for "stand your ground," and she was sentenced to TWENTY YEARS for aggravated assault.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/05/2108171/florida-judge-rejected-stand-your-ground-defense-for-black-woman-who-fired-warning-shot-during-domestic-violence/

That's the pathetic thing about laws like this. It's totally up to individual discretion to even enforce it. "Hey, I like you or I identify with you in some way-- you don't deserve to be in prison!" But get a person like Rachel Jeantel on the stand, and suddenly the trial looks like she's being charged with a crime. This country's entire legal justice system is a total sham, and you're content because it's working in your favor. That's the definition of cowardice.

[Hasbinbad]

you're content because it's working in your favor. That's the definition of cowardice.

[Hasbinbad]

Malice_Mizer you seem like an alright person.

[Malice_Mizer]

I have my head in the sand yet you're still stuck in the false left-right paradigm.

I say that because a few pages back, you thumbs-upped a "Vote Republican." You blatantly advertised your political affiliation. Don't assume anything about mine.

Hi.

[TarukShmaruk]

His story is CLEARLY bullshit. Read the court transcripts.

Except the lead detective in the case, the prosecution's witness, said himself that he didn't think Zimmerman was being deceptive?

[Hasbinbad]

oh yeah, believe a cop, roflmao.

[Hasbinbad]

THEY NEVER LIE

[Malice_Mizer]

Except the lead detective in the case, the prosecution's witness, said himself that he didn't think Zimmerman was being deceptive?

"In his report, Serino, who interviewed Zimmerman in the days following the shooting, wrote that in following Martin, Zimmerman's actions were "inconsistent with those of a person who has stated he was in fear of another subject." He wrote that Zimmerman had at least two opportunities to speak to the teen and "defuse the situation." He also noted that Zimmerman "failed to identify himself" as a concerned citizen or neighborhood watch member on two occasions that night.

According to the report, Serino recommended that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter on March 13."

Serino also said that he believed Zimmerman was greatly exaggerating his injuries, and that they didn't appear to indicate a "life-or-death" scenario, especially since Trayvon didn't have a deadly weapon.

An ex-detective isn't a lie-detector test. Sometimes they get it. A lot of the times they miss liars and make mistakes. His personal opinion does not matter. The only reason it wasn't objected to and sustained was because Serino answered too quickly for the prosecution to effectively object. Otherwise, we wouldn't even have that piece of pseudo-evidence.

Remember when the judge ordered the jury to strike Serino saying, "I don't believe he was lying," from consideration? The freaking judge said that it was an inappropriate statement. Good lord, people~

[r00t]

Really not gonna argue with you when you continue your entire merit of my support of Zimmerman being entirely based on his skin colour.

I say that because a few pages back, you thumbs-upped a "Vote Republican." You blatantly advertised your political affiliation. Don't assume anything about mine.

Hi.

I've explained my stance in supporting their party platform. You're stuck with 2 choices, and one party's platform is to disarm you and turn you into a slave as your head is beat open bouncing off a sidewalk.

[Reapin]

Really not gonna argue with you when you continue your entire merit of my support of Zimmerman being entirely based on his skin colour.



I've explained my stance in supporting their party platform. You're stuck with 2 choices, and one party's platform is to disarm you and turn you into a slave as your head is beat open bouncing off a sidewalk.

Wake up!

You are already a slave.

[Karafa]

HBB, outside of quoting someone who is miles ahead of you in intelligence, what do you besides sit your fat ass at home and talk about how "terrible" our country is? I bet you're riddled in sweat just thinking about getting a Jack In the Box taco.

[TarukShmaruk]

Have fun in an America where your heroes cowardly shoot people they're afraid of. Fist fighting a minor isn't even pathetic enough for you. You have to shoot the kid in the heart for it to be truly heroic enough for you.

"Oh, that dude across the street is scaring me. Yes, I am in fear for my life. Open season to kill people for whatever reason suits your fancy and claim that you were afraid!"

I'd love to see the Zimmerman standard be applied to a single person of color. For instance, a black woman in FL shot a warning shot against her ex-husband who just got out of prison for domestic abuse and kicked her fucking door down. She shot it into the ceiling, the judge dismissed her plea for "stand your ground," and she was sentenced to TWENTY YEARS for aggravated assault.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2013/06/05/2108171/florida-judge-rejected-stand-your-ground-defense-for-black-woman-who-fired-warning-shot-during-domestic-violence/

That's the pathetic thing about laws like this. It's totally up to individual discretion to even enforce it. "Hey, I like you or I identify with you in some way-- you don't deserve to be in prison!" But get a person like Rachel Jeantel on the stand, and suddenly the trial looks like she's being charged with a crime. This country's entire legal justice system is a total sham, and you're content because it's working in your favor. That's the definition of cowardice.

1.) I don't expect anything said here to sway your opinion even the slightest because you are firmly entrenched in your beliefs. That said...

2.) The Marissa Alexander incident was picked up by the liberal blog/website/news orgs and plastered everywhere as an example of racism and the SYG law. Unfortunately, much of what REALLY happened was lost in translation and you really have to do some google digging to find out what actually took place.

Here's an article with a different version of the events:
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-05-16/story/marissa-alexanders-husband-says-it-was-her-violent-nature-led-shooting

And another:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/annanorth/the-9-events-that-led-to-marissa-alexanders-reve

Of course you can question this, but I'd question your intelligence if you took the thinkprogress/huffpost versions at face value. Remember - Zimmerman was originally a white guy and in his 911 call said Trayvon was black without being asked.

3.) Self defense laws are pretty clear in most states, and to have a concealed weapon permit you are educated on what these laws are. You must be able to articulate that you were in fear of your life or great bodily harm.

In the Zimmerman case, the injuries on Zimmerman (and lack of injuries on Trayvon) and eyewitness testimony (another prosecution witness saying he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman 'MMA ground and pound style') give credence to this claim.

What so many anti-Zimmerman sheep seem to think is that it was entirely *impossible* for Trayvon to be a stupid teenage punk (all evidence points that he was) who assaulted Zimmerman because he was being followed (not against the law, not grounds for assault) and paid the price for the viciousness of his assault.

He probably wouldn't have been shot if he just punched Zimmerman once, but that's not how teens fight these days. (and if he had been shot over a single punch Zimmerman would have no case and would have gone to jail)

4.) People die all the time. Black on black crime is at an outrageous rate yet nobody wants to address that. Black kids are getting shot all the time in urban areas. Where's your outrage there? Where are the lynch mobs calling for riots?

5.) If you really want to kill someone, you don't need to play some self-defense game, you can just kill someone randomly and have a much higher chance of getting away with it. This whole "OMG people are going to go around shooting eachother all the time using the self defense ploy!!!" is a red herring and frankly has been proven to be untrue and a complete non-issue.

Also, see #4.

Lastly - please just think. Use your head. I know you've been brainwashed by your peers/media/JonStewart/whatever for years, but coming here spewing a bunch of /r/politics garbage from reddit isn't very becoming.

[TarukShmaruk]

"In his report, Serino, who interviewed Zimmerman in the days following the shooting, wrote that in following Martin, Zimmerman's actions were "inconsistent with those of a person who has stated he was in fear of another subject." He wrote that Zimmerman had at least two opportunities to speak to the teen and "defuse the situation." He also noted that Zimmerman "failed to identify himself" as a concerned citizen or neighborhood watch member on two occasions that night.

According to the report, Serino recommended that Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter on March 13."

Serino also said that he believed Zimmerman was greatly exaggerating his injuries, and that they didn't appear to indicate a "life-or-death" scenario, especially since Trayvon didn't have a deadly weapon.

An ex-detective isn't a lie-detector test. Sometimes they get it. A lot of the times they miss liars and make mistakes. His personal opinion does not matter. The only reason it wasn't objected to and sustained was because Serino answered too quickly for the prosecution to effectively object. Otherwise, we wouldn't even have that piece of pseudo-evidence.

Remember when the judge ordered the jury to strike Serino saying, "I don't believe he was lying," from consideration? The freaking judge said that it was an inappropriate statement. Good lord, people~

/rolleyes

Cross-examination destroyed this testimony, as they've done with all of the prosecution testimonies, and have ended up benefitting Zimmermans case more than hurting it.

When asked, Serino said he thought the inconsistencies were insignificant, and the motion to strike Serino's statement regarding Zimmerman's truthfulness was made 17 hours later.

Stop cherry-picking. Zimmerman is going to walk and rightly so. We haven't even seen the multitude of witnesses the defense is going to call yet.

[Malice_Mizer]

This is the hilarious thing about this trial. You claim that you're somehow unbiased and that every "anti-Zimmerman sheep" is. Your entire post is riddled with betrayals to your own political and legal attitudes.

I personally don't even have a stake in this trial outcome. I personally don't think the evidence is there to convict on murder 2, but I think manslaughter is more than accounted for. I think it comes down to, "Nobody truly knows what happened, and there is contrary and inconsistent evidence on both sides of the case." For everything you've cited, I could just as easily cite some inconsistency with Zimmerman's account. The problem is that you're taking Zimmerman's word as full and unconditional truth for some reason or another. I'm not going to take a guess at why you're so helplessly willing to adopt Zimmerman's self-defense claim as absolute and that any other theory is so full of holes. You're obviously cherry-picking evidence to support the conclusion you came to when this all first happened. That's fine, but please don't claim that everybody else is indulging in bias but you're not. That's sad and delusional.

One of the biggest problems I have with this whole case is that pro-Zimmerman defense has turned from, "He's innocent because you can't prove otherwise!" into, "Trayvon was an evil hood rat that was destined to be killed one way or another because he was rotten and deserved it." You've hijacked the defense of an individual's self-protection and turned it into something wicked. That's the problem I have with this case. Every other Zimmerman acolyte is just as willing to hurl racist epithets and bigoted stereotypes as they are to say, "You haven't proved anything beyond a reasonable doubt." That's where your case is-- but you all take it somewhere disgusting.

But go on with your "Don't trust the liberal media" hype and other band-wagon, "Don't be a sheep!" talking points as you yourself are fed pre-digested opinions and societal conceptions. Just know that you're a bleeding hypocrite.

[Daldolma]

1.) I don't expect anything said here to sway your opinion even the slightest because you are firmly entrenched in your beliefs. That said...

2.) The Marissa Alexander incident was picked up by the liberal blog/website/news orgs and plastered everywhere as an example of racism and the SYG law. Unfortunately, much of what REALLY happened was lost in translation and you really have to do some google digging to find out what actually took place.

Here's an article with a different version of the events:
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-05-16/story/marissa-alexanders-husband-says-it-was-her-violent-nature-led-shooting

And another:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/annanorth/the-9-events-that-led-to-marissa-alexanders-reve

Of course you can question this, but I'd question your intelligence if you took the thinkprogress/huffpost versions at face value. Remember - Zimmerman was originally a white guy and in his 911 call said Trayvon was black without being asked.

3.) Self defense laws are pretty clear in most states, and to have a concealed weapon permit you are educated on what these laws are. You must be able to articulate that you were in fear of your life or great bodily harm.

In the Zimmerman case, the injuries on Zimmerman (and lack of injuries on Trayvon) and eyewitness testimony (another prosecution witness saying he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman 'MMA ground and pound style') give credence to this claim.

What so many anti-Zimmerman sheep seem to think is that it was entirely *impossible* for Trayvon to be a stupid teenage punk (all evidence points that he was) who assaulted Zimmerman because he was being followed (not against the law, not grounds for assault) and paid the price for the viciousness of his assault.

He probably wouldn't have been shot if he just punched Zimmerman once, but that's not how teens fight these days. (and if he had been shot over a single punch Zimmerman would have no case and would have gone to jail)

4.) People die all the time. Black on black crime is at an outrageous rate yet nobody wants to address that. Black kids are getting shot all the time in urban areas. Where's your outrage there? Where are the lynch mobs calling for riots?

5.) If you really want to kill someone, you don't need to play some self-defense game, you can just kill someone randomly and have a much higher chance of getting away with it. This whole "OMG people are going to go around shooting eachother all the time using the self defense ploy!!!" is a red herring and frankly has been proven to be untrue and a complete non-issue.

Also, see #4.

Lastly - please just think. Use your head. I know you've been brainwashed by your peers/media/JonStewart/whatever for years, but coming here spewing a bunch of /r/politics garbage from reddit isn't very becoming.

+1

[Samoht]

what's with all the people with the hard-on for trayvon

little thief got caught casing houses, went thug, got shot

one less thief in the world

pras gm

[Malice_Mizer]

what's with all the people with the hard-on for trayvon

little thief got caught casing houses, went thug, got shot

one less thief in the world

pras gm

Case-in-point. The Zimmerman defense is accused of racism because so many of its supporters are irreparably bigoted.

Let'a all trust the wife-beating, cop-punching, anger-management-bound loser who's in financial ruin, right? Sounds like a well-reasoned and insightful opinion you have there. Keep it up! ;)

[Daldolma]

This is the hilarious thing about this trial. You claim that you're somehow unbiased and that every "anti-Zimmerman sheep" is. Your entire post is riddled with betrayals to your own political and legal attitudes.

I personally don't even have a stake in this trial outcome. I personally don't think the evidence is there to convict on murder 2, but I think manslaughter is more than accounted for. I think it comes down to, "Nobody truly knows what happened, and there is contrary and inconsistent evidence on both sides of the case." For everything you've cited, I could just as easily cite some inconsistency with Zimmerman's account. The problem is that you're taking Zimmerman's word as full and unconditional truth for some reason or another. I'm not going to take a guess at why you're so helplessly willing to adopt Zimmerman's self-defense claim as absolute and that any other theory is so full of holes. You're obviously cherry-picking evidence to support the conclusion you came to when this all first happened. That's fine, but please don't claim that everybody else is indulging in bias but you're not. That's sad and delusional.

One of the biggest problems I have with this whole case is that pro-Zimmerman defense has turned from, "He's innocent because you can't prove otherwise!" into, "Trayvon was an evil hood rat that was destined to be killed one way or another because he was rotten and deserved it." You've hijacked the defense of an individual's self-protection and turned it into something wicked. That's the problem I have with this case. Every other Zimmerman acolyte is just as willing to hurl racist epithets and bigoted stereotypes as they are to say, "You haven't proved anything beyond a reasonable doubt." That's where your case is-- but you all take it somewhere disgusting.

But go on with your "Don't trust the liberal media" hype and other band-wagon, "Don't be a sheep!" talking points as you yourself are fed pre-digested opinions and societal conceptions. Just know that you're a bleeding hypocrite.

so what you're saying is you just went on a 3-page long rampage about the racist, broken american justice system being on full display in the zimmerman case... and you agree that he's not guilty of murder 2. ok cool

pras court in advance for correctly finding gz not guilty on the charge of murder 2

ps you're wrong about manslaughter as well which is why it wasn't pursued but happy to know you agree that zimmerman should be found not guilty as that's really the pertinent issue here

[TarukShmaruk]

This is the hilarious thing about this trial. You claim that you're somehow unbiased and that every "anti-Zimmerman sheep" is. Your entire post is riddled with betrayals to your own political and legal attitudes.

It's just backlash against the lynch mob. When I first heard about the incident (reported as a racist white guy) my thoughts were "fuck him hope he goes to prison"

Btw Zimmerman is a registered democrat :) Although I bet you he voted Romney last year.


I personally don't even have a stake in this trial outcome. I personally don't think the evidence is there to convict on murder 2, but I think manslaughter is more than accounted for. I think it comes down to, "Nobody truly knows what happened, and there is contrary and inconsistent evidence on both sides of the case." For everything you've cited, I could just as easily cite some inconsistency with Zimmerman's account. The problem is that you're taking Zimmerman's word as full and unconditional truth for some reason or another. I'm not going to take a guess at why you're so helplessly willing to adopt Zimmerman's self-defense claim as absolute and that any other theory is so full of holes. You're obviously cherry-picking evidence to support the conclusion you came to when this all first happened. That's fine, but please don't claim that everybody else is indulging in bias but you're not. That's sad and delusional.

The hard evidence, simply put, supports Zimmerman. That's if you're looking at the situation objectively and not placing your own 'gut feelings'.

But, what's more important than that, is that every ding the prosecution makes is worth 1/4th of every point the defense makes - remember, beyond a reasonable doubt is the name of the game.

With the injuries on Zimmerman - severe or not - and none on Trayvon, they perfectly corroborate his version of events. Remember, Zimmerman is claiming that Trayvon saw his gun and *that* is when Zimmerman got scared enough to draw and fire.

One of the biggest problems I have with this whole case is that pro-Zimmerman defense has turned from, "He's innocent because you can't prove otherwise!" into, "Trayvon was an evil hood rat that was destined to be killed one way or another because he was rotten and deserved it." You've hijacked the defense of an individual's self-protection and turned it into something wicked. That's the problem I have with this case. Every other Zimmerman acolyte is just as willing to hurl racist epithets and bigoted stereotypes as they are to say, "You haven't proved anything beyond a reasonable doubt." That's where your case is-- but you all take it somewhere disgusting.

There's a reason for this, and that's because we've been inundated with depictions of Zimmerman as this evil, racist, wannabe hero vigilante and Trayvon as this poor innocent kid.

Furthermore, people want to shout racism at the top of their lungs anytime someone simply acknowledges reality - everyone wants to pretend that a 17 y/o who's been in trouble at school, had suspicious jewelry that didn't belong to him in his locker, 'swung at a bus driver (according to one of his friends on twitter), and acted like a thug is just a harmless teenager because they think it's some badge of anti-racism purity to ignore the facts.


But go on with your "Don't trust the liberal media" hype and other band-wagon, "Don't be a sheep!" talking points as you yourself are fed pre-digested opinions and societal conceptions. Just know that you're a bleeding hypocrite.

?

NBC (liberal) doctored the 911 calls to make Zimmerman seem racist.

Liberal media outlets plastered the jumpsuit image of Zimmerman and the years-old image of innocent child Trayvon.

CNN just plastered his fucking SSN and other personal information on TV - oops.

I think my points are well founded.

[Malice_Mizer]

so what you're saying is you just went on a 3-page long rampage about the racist, broken american justice system being on full display in the zimmerman case... and you agree that he's not guilty of murder 2. ok cool

pras court in advance for correctly finding gz not guilty on the charge of murder 2

ps you're wrong about manslaughter as well which is why it wasn't pursued but happy to know you agree that zimmerman should be found not guilty as that's really the pertinent issue here

You have a serious misunderstanding of the way this whole thing works.

I didn't say that he wasn't guilty of murder 2. I didn't say that he shouldn't be found not guilty. That's the whole point. He may very well be. The problem is that the prosecution has the burden of proof, so if they can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he had malicious intent which seems to be their most difficult hurdle at the moment, then the jury MAY NOT find him guilty of murder 2. You see, there's a jury of peers that consider the merits of the case and where to allocate their consideration. They could find him guilty of murder 2 regardless. They could defer to a lesser charge of manslaughter, which is looking more and more likely.

[TarukShmaruk]

Case-in-point. The Zimmerman defense is accused of racism because so many of its supporters are irreparably bigoted.

Let'a all trust the wife-beating, cop-punching, anger-management-bound loser who's in financial ruin, right? Sounds like a well-reasoned and insightful opinion you have there. Keep it up! ;)

There are lots of really racist posts on certain articles coming from people that support Zimmerman, this is true, and it's shitty. Of course that doesn't mean that everyone who thinks Zimmerman is innocent and acted in self defense hates black people.

On the flip side, there sure are a fuckton of black people saying "imma kill a cracker" and "justice for trayvon imma riot!!!!" and it's equally racist.

[Hasbinbad]

miles ahead of you in intelligence
I'm curious as to what led you to this conclusion.

[Hasbinbad]

it's equally racist.
lol. no.

[Malice_Mizer]

There are lots of really racist posts on certain articles coming from people that support Zimmerman, this is true, and it's shitty. Of course that doesn't mean that everyone who thinks Zimmerman is innocent and acted in self defense hates black people.

On the flip side, there sure are a fuckton of black people saying "imma kill a cracker" and "justice for trayvon imma riot!!!!" and it's equally racist.

How is that equally racist? You have a black minor killed by a white guy, and the supporters of the white guy are resorting to destroying the character of the black kid by resorting to horrific stereotypes and bigoted assumptions. What's more, they utilize any "bad" thing that Trayvon ever did against him as though he deserved to die for it. Trust me, I got into fights by the time I was 17, I did a lot of drugs, had 2 run-ins with the law, and I come from a privileged white background. Nobody would have used that against me if I were in Trayvon's position, killed by a black dude. No way in hell. It's a tremendous double-standard.

This entire trial and investigation stinks, and the defense has tried to use everything in the book to prey on racialized fears of white people leading up the trial. If you see that Trayvon's dead body was drug-tested but Zimmerman wasn't, as a black person, how would you react to that?

[TarukShmaruk]

lol. no.

Oh you're right, a bunch of black people out there wanting to 'kill whitey' and 'riot' and 'imma kill me a cracker' is nowhere near as racist as someone posting 'porch monkeys' on a drudgereport linked article's comments section.

Gotcha.

Nobody would have used that against me if I were in Trayvon's position, killed by a black dude. No way in hell. It's a tremendous double-standard.

Oh really? Well, you're right, because if a 29 year old black guy killed you after you attacked him while he was protecting his neighborhood this would have never gone to trial and he'd be considered a hero.

But please tell us more about ~white privilege~ - maybe if you educate us you can earn your second white guilt merit badge!

[Frieza_Prexus]

how would you react to that?

I'd probably go off half-cocked about it on the internet.

Personally, I'm waiting to see what happens when the defense gets its chance to request a directed verdict. You just know there's going to be fireworks. Especially if the jury comes back with guilty and the judge intercedes with renewed judgement as a matter or law.

[Malice_Mizer]

It's not. Any intelligent commentator on racism will tell you that "racism" is specifically the mixture of race and power. Jim Crow America, for instance, was when the United States held a racial supremacist philosophy and used its power to enforce it. That's racism. All of this other crap you're referencing are prejudiced attitudes. Not racism. There is, in fact, a difference.

Don't even get started on the white privilege. If you're literally mocking the concept that a country that was founded on an explicit white supremacist philosophy that it held dearly until 50 years ago is suddenly no longer racist at all and is a purely color-blind society, go ahead in your own self-interested delusion.

But I can tell you that you'd be singing a different tune if you weren't white. Again, you're only scoffing because you benefit directly from it and don't want to consider the horrific nature of our history and its living vestiges. But I guess a total absence of empathy would render you totally unable to entertain the existence of other people in the world, this is true.

"White guilt merit badge"... That should get you a soft spot in Hannity's Heaven somewhere down the line for that one. I'm sure George Wallace is applauding you from beyond the grave. Must feel interesting to constantly be on the wrong side of history.

[Hasbinbad]

Oh you're right, a bunch of black people out there wanting to 'kill whitey' and 'riot' and 'imma kill me a cracker' is nowhere near as racist as someone posting 'porch monkeys' on a drudgereport linked article's comments section.

Gotcha.
Racism only exists within a context of racial power imbalance. Bottom->up "racism" is not really racism, it is a reaction to being treated like an animal.

[Hasbinbad]

Also, kill whitey.

[Samoht]

Case-in-point. The Zimmerman defense is accused of racism because so many of its supporters are irreparably bigoted.

bigoted? what about my comment was bigoted? trayvon was a known thief. he was caught with a back pack full of women's jewelry. you're just some kind of reverse racist -- omg he's black someone is trying to hold him down.

[Malice_Mizer]

Racism only exists within a context of racial power imbalance. Bottom->up "racism" is not really racism, it is a reaction to being treated like an animal.

[Hasbinbad]

Things racists say:
you're just some kind of reverse racist

[Samoht]

You have a black minor killed by a white guy, and the supporters of the white guy are resorting to destroying the character of the black kid by resorting to horrific stereotypes and bigoted assumptions.

lol! that's the best part! we don't have to destroy trayvon's character, he did a well enough job destroying it himself! he was there that night to steal stuff. that's why he was dressed like he was the many times he stole in that neighbourhood before.

the only difference was he was caught that night. good riddance.

[Samoht]

Things racists say:

i'm not a racist. i think white people are perfectly capable of stealing. do i have a cow when one of them is caught in the act? narp.

that's the difference between level headed americans like me and people who get tricked by sensationalized media like you.

moran.

[Hasbinbad]

good riddance.
Soon.

[Hasbinbad]

Things racists say:
i'm not a racist.

[Samoht]

^ things morans say

[Hasbinbad]

^ things morans say
Syk burn, dudebro.

[Samoht]

is it me, or are your posts getting dumber

[Malice_Mizer]

bigoted? what about my comment was bigoted? trayvon was a known thief. he was caught with a back pack full of women's jewelry. you're just some kind of reverse racist -- omg he's black someone is trying to hold him down.

http://i1366.photobucket.com/albums/r774/anfistophanes/WhaaaatInTheFuck_zps5a216f97.jpg

[Samoht]

black people don't deserve any kind of automatic credit just because they're black. that makes you racists, not me.

[Hasbinbad]

is it me, or are your posts getting dumber
I'm a mixed bag. Talk to Hailto for further info.

[Hasbinbad]

black people don't deserve any kind of automatic credit just because they're black.
Nobody ever said that.

But even if we did:
that makes you racists, not me.
No it wouldn't.

[Daldolma]

You have a serious misunderstanding of the way this whole thing works.

I didn't say that he wasn't guilty of murder 2. I didn't say that he shouldn't be found not guilty. That's the whole point. He may very well be. The problem is that the prosecution has the burden of proof, so if they can't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he had malicious intent which seems to be their most difficult hurdle at the moment, then the jury MAY NOT find him guilty of murder 2. You see, there's a jury of peers that consider the merits of the case and where to allocate their consideration. They could find him guilty of murder 2 regardless. They could defer to a lesser charge of manslaughter, which is looking more and more likely.

i actually understand exactly how this works -- it's you that seems confused. malicious intent is a hurdle the prosecution isn't even going to reach because they're never getting past self defense. that is the same reason manslaughter won't and can't stick. you can't just fly past self defense and split the difference with manslaughter. either you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that zimmerman was not acting in self defense or you have no case

you've said you personally don't believe there is sufficient evidence for murder 2. there isn't. the same applies to manslaughter and for the same reason. so you can basically hope for a miscarriage of justice in order to put this guy in jail without evidentiary basis

[Samoht]

No it wouldn't.

yes, yes it would

giving preference to once race over another is definition of racism

[Hasbinbad]

jury can do whatever the fuck they want. instructions are actually suggestions. a jury does not have to convict if they feel a person has broken an unjust law, and can convict if they are convinced outside the letter of the law.

[Hasbinbad]

yes, yes it would

giving preference to once race over another is a racist definition of racism
ftfy

[Hasbinbad]

jury can do whatever the fuck they want. instructions are actually suggestions. a jury does not have to convict if they feel a person has broken an unjust law, and can convict if they are convinced outside the letter of the law.
ofc any ruling is subject to appeal, but juries can do a lot more than they are told they can do.

[Frieza_Prexus]

jury can do whatever the fuck they want. instructions are actually suggestions. a jury does not have to convict if they feel a person has broken an unjust law, and can convict if they are convinced outside the letter of the law.

They can do whatever they want, but they cannot force certain results no matter how badly they want them.

It's far from certain, but if the defense scores a few more big plays, be they procedural or evidentiary, it's very possible the judge could toss the case despite a guilty jury verdict.