new patch ench charm

[Murphy]

Originally Posted by Pezmerga [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think what Glitch said earlier made sense. How many Chanters on live back in the day were using tash AND malo for charmed pets?

Why wouldn't they use both magic debuffs when in the guide they mention remezzing / rooting / stunning? Honestly I don't think they were so stupid as to say "Hey don't bother debuffing MR as much as possible since all these spells work 100% of the time". Now whether or not they made a connection between -MR and charm duration is another story, but I doubt all players in the year 1999 - 2001 were autistic.

[fauxreigner]

I'm a little late to the party here, and I'm admittedly not contributing much to this discussion when I make these points, but here it goes:

1) Anecdotal evidence of how long/short a charm lasted isn't extremely helpful, nor is anecdotal evidence of how long someone's charm lasted in 1999-2002. Unless we compile and analyze some rather huge data sets from some time in 1999-2002 and come up with probability distributions of how long charm lasted, we're not going to accurately describe how things worked in the old days.

It seems like these changes are being made based on anecdotal evidence and argued against based on anecdotal evidence. Although it's all we have, it's not very fruitful.

2) Mostly an iteration on point 1. Since players use different tactics on this server than on live in the 1999-2002 era, we are comparing apples to oranges. Cliche description, I know, but that's exactly what it is. Until we either have the original source or some extensive data to interpolate how long charm should have lasted, there's no rigor in anyone's argument.

If the goal is to balance the game, then the devs can do whatever they want. If the goal is to emulate 1999 exactly, we need to send some statisticians back in a time machine. Otherwise we're just turning knobs until the picture looks clear.

[Brain]

Someone just email McQuaid and ask him if charm should last 30seconds 90% of the time or have a genuine SOLID CHANCE of lasting up to the max duration.

kthxbai

BTW: To all the dev's out there who contributed to this charm nerf...

There's a huge difference between "fixing" an OP'd spell and destroying it's utility completely. And you guys just crossed the line. So thank you, thank you so much - you're making the gaming experience of 1/14 of your player-base a heck of a lot worse.

*golf clap*

[Striiker]

Originally Posted by fauxreigner [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2) Mostly an iteration on point 1. Since players use different tactics on this server than on live in the 1999-2002 era, we are comparing apples to oranges. Cliche description, I know, but that's exactly what it is. Until we either have the original source or some extensive data to interpolate how long charm should have lasted, there's no rigor in anyone's argument.

Well, not true. While the debate is centered around the higher level charm issues, I had issues with charm doing exactly the same thing I did on live in early 2000. Back then, I could charm very effectively in North Karana at around level 16 or so. On this server, it was pointless (if it landed, it dropped very quickly.. 1 or 2 ticks). My characters were as close to identical as possible with perhaps a few very minor gear differences (in that I was better equipped on P1999). I used the identical tactics and it was a complete failure. So, I would not be so quick to dismiss the anecdotal evidence offered.
I know that we can't base the server upon this because people may intentionally or unintentionally skew things into the positive.

[eriamjh]

Originally Posted by Brain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Someone just email McQuaid and ask him if charm should last 30seconds 90% of the time or have a genuine SOLID CHANCE of lasting up to the max duration.

This is the problem that isn't being properly addressed. Resistances just do not scale properly and never have. It may be because of different spell effects having different, wrong hard-coded resistance offsets leading to overall skew, or it could be a number of other things like resists being out of an expected 400 for PCs instead of 255. Regardless of the actual faults in the code, NPCs just CHEAT when it comes to resisting charm duration now. It is just ridiculous and can easily be demonstrated in two simple example:

Druid swarm line dots: All classic swarm line dot spells have a -100 magic resist check offset. This is equivalent to a level 50 enchanter and shaman stacking their best tash+malo on the mob before you try to cast a non-offset, magic-based dot on it. Because of this -100 magic resist offset, swarm line dot spells are virtually never resisted against blue con mobs. This is a well established fact. The rate is literally 1-2% or less unless the monster is only a few levels under you or has naturally high resists. If a -100 magic resist offset mod on these spells effectively reduces their resist chance to nil, then it should substantially improve charm duration so long as it lasts.

Necro heat blood line dots: Heat blood has a -100 fire resist offset which also makes it virtually unresistable. If you don't believe me just try heading down to befallen at level 50 with less than 100 fire resist and you will get dotted by those damn level 10-20 necros much if not most of the time at a THIRTY LEVEL difference. Again, a -100 resist offset virtually eliminates resists on the heat blood dot line spells both PC vs general monsters as well as NPCs vs virtually any player. The few exceptions all have innately high FR or are designed to be fire immune.

Now what is the deal with charm? Charm is not supposed to have a 2 minute average duration at -100 MR just like it isn't supposed to have a 10 minute average duration for stupid enchanters that don't believe in tash. Most non-boss monsters in the emu database I browse don't even HAVE 100 MR to begin with, yet they fair remarkably well at resisting charm duration even when I have 10+ levels over them as they effectively have _negative_ magic resistance.

What needs to be fixed here seems obvious. So long as the moster has both tash and malo on it charm should last more like an average duration of 10 minutes out of its _20 minute max duration_ than the current ~2. Once malo wears off you lose at least 2/3 of that random extra duration, and the other 1/3 once tash fades. Both last less than 10 minutes which is still less than half of charm's duration at 60 anyway.

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by Brain [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Someone just email McQuaid and ask him if charm should last 30seconds 90% of the time or have a genuine SOLID CHANCE of lasting up to the max duration.

kthxbai

BTW: To all the dev's out there who contributed to this charm nerf...

There's a huge difference between "fixing" an OP'd spell and destroying it's utility completely. And you guys just crossed the line. So thank you, thank you so much - you're making the gaming experience of 1/14 of your player-base a heck of a lot worse.

*golf clap*

yeah i have totally stop playing till this get fixed. if not i can say at least i had fun with eq while it last.

all i can say is that it was working as intended ( pre nerf ). charming a mob in sebilis that was like 10 lv below me is the reason the grip was holding that long. at 53 with the spell files no7 i chalenge you to charm a krup and hold that grip for a long time. it just wasnt holding very good. just the way it was supposed to be, now charm is totally useless...

[Lazortag]

Originally Posted by ziahh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

yeah i have totally stop playing till this get fixed. if not i can say at least i had fun with eq while it last.

all i can say is that it was working as intended. charming a mob in sebilis hat was like 10 lv below me is the reason the grip was holding that long. at 53 with the spell files no7 i chalenge you to charm a krup and hold that grip for a long time. it just wasnt holding very good. just the way it was supposed to be, now charm is totally useless...

You're seriously going to quit over this? Really?

[ziahh]

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're seriously going to quit over this? Really?

havent played more then 2-3hours since the nerf, the class is dead, if you like to buff play a shaman lol

my enchanter is dead at 58 atm /cry

[Brain]

Originally Posted by ziahh [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the class is dead, if you like to buff play a shaman lol

Exactly...

Charming was what sparked the original motivation to play the chanter class. I hate sitting around in groups ONLY mezzing/crack/haste and occasionally slowing... Charming made it challenging and exciting to play the class.

Was charming a tad bit too "safe" pre-nerf? Yes - something every honest enchanter will admit to.

Unfortunately, the changes made via the nerf were overkill. Rather than balancing the spell line you simply changed "flipped it" from OP --> Gimp.

Uthgardy-poo already stated charm will "NEVER GO BACK TO THE WAY IT WAS!!!!!!!" - and it doesn't need to. But it does need to be looked at again and fixed. The randomness of breakage is simply unplayable, especially with upper level mobs in high tier dungeons.

(Want a quick fix to make the enchanters happy? Since Charm lasts about 30-45secs avg, just make the mana cost of Charm spells 5 or 10, that way we won't go OOM until the 2nd or 3rd fight)

Originally Posted by Lazortag [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're seriously going to quit over this? Really?

Why is that so hard to believe? Think any monks would quit if the FD skill was changed to a 3 minute recast or 10% success rate?
What about clerics losing res? Or Cheal?

The point is, the ability to charm high level, dangerous mobs for long periods of time RELIABLY was a CLASS DEFINING ABILITY of Enchanters. Bards/Necro's can mez. Shamans/bards can haste. Bards can mana regen. Clerics/pallies/wizards can stun. What's unique about enchanters? Illusions and a badass Charm.

If one of the core abilities of your class becomes obsolete, then yes, refusing to play the class anymore isn't consider "rage quitting."

[Lazortag]

I still find my enchanter fun. If you needed an overpowered charm to enjoy the class then I feel sorry for you.

Also, just a bit of advice: you should focus more on gathering evidence than posting about how you're going to quit because of the changes, because the former actually accomplishes things, and the latter just trivializes your cause.