there is a private list system going on at AC in OOT?

[Donkey Hotay]

Here's more of that forum cognitive dissonance, I see.

Why does the camper, when his camp is complete and he has the camped object, get to choose who gets pixels next. What is the value there beyond "well now the GMs won't get called". Also lol @Loramin for immediately suggesting that you should call the GMs when the campers are doing exactly what the current system explicitly (and to my mind, inexplicably) allows them to do.

Queue the next page of posters saying, well it's got electrolytes! or arguing about how live EQ was great because [I could deny other people pixels which is my sole power in this world and the real reason I only play EQ].

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Donkey Hotay [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's more of that forum cognitive dissonance, I see.

Why does the camper, when his camp is complete and he has the camped object, get to choose who gets pixels next. What is the value there beyond "well now the GMs won't get called". Also lol @Loramin for immediately suggesting that you should call the GMs when the campers are doing exactly what the current system explicitly (and to my mind, inexplicably) allows them to do.

Look, here's the thing: there is no "current system" ... or at least, not in the sense of a purposefuly constructed one. There's simply some volunteer staff members making whatever very minimal rulings they can to keep things fun (again, minimal to keep their lives as volunteers sane), and then there's what happens "on the ground" as a consequence.

But the crucial piece you're missing is that at any instant the staff can change things, because NOTHING in the "camp rules" is set in stone! In fact, technically, nothing in the Play Nice Policies is either ... but the staff generally tries to avoid changing that.

And this is not just a hypothetical: we have a mountain of historical cases where the staff became unhappy with "what was happening on the ground", and changed the rules ... and it's called the Camp Rules page [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] The "rules" or "system" of the server was one thing one day ... then a player petitioned something they thought was wrong ... a GM showed up ... someone (the GM or the player) reported it in the forum ... and the next day the server had a new system/rules.

So if you assume the staff wants anything bad in the game to stay that way indefinitely, you've misunderstood their limits as volunteers for a willfull desire to preserve the status quo. If you then refuse to petition in a clearly wrong situation (remember: the only true/universal rule here is "don't be a dick") ... because your imagination predicts that they inexplicably want things to stay wrong and terrible here ... the only one who loses out is you.

[magnetaress]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Under what I'm suggesting a guild in theory could still monopolize the fbss camp forever (just keep passing it to another guildy when you are done)...they just can't lie about it to circumvent the already established rules.

You aren't entitled to just show up and eventually get loot. Players own their camp. They can pass it how they want. Just hanging out in frenzied room all day doesn't mean you will ever get to the top of the list I'm proposing...you'd still have to socially interact, etc.

No body owns anything online and there will always be disruptive people, i don't think the gms should get involved everytime something dramatic happens only when it's negatively impacting the server environment as a whole. This whole idea of 'owning' and 'entitlement' and 'controlling' to camps is ridiculous.

Like when one group will not share for a month on end, or when 1 player continually, over the course of several days just disrupts a zone. Not when 1 person trains or KS's or memblurs 1 mob. That stuff should happen from time to time. Sometimes camps should switch hands in less than agreeable ways.

No one engaged in die hard camp monopolization on live, because eventually some crew would log in with a wizard and an enchanter, and put an end to it. There was no petition war at that point. Unless it went on and on repeatedly. Verent, 989, and Sony weren't in the business of doloing out heavy punishments, it took me months of trolling ooc and verbally abusing a GM to get silenced for 2 hrs in /ooc chat. They would suspend someone for like 1 night at most, a 1 week punishment was severe. Most times, BOTH sides just got a warning to not be dumb and get the CSR involved if they want any fun at all. Otherwise they would both have to take turns. Then when the opposing parties abused that agreement is when the big guns came out, when players went against the CSR, not each other.

Most players would then default to sharing a camp, even among multiple groups because they didn't want total nuklear escalation. This doesn't happen with list and it doesn't happen with the limited staffing of p99. There's no way to enforce this kind of environment programatically. I think it would be better for CSR staff on this project to only get involved in player disputes after a month or so of seeing how it plays out, then u can really spot who the bad guys are. And give people a chance to get to really know who each other really is. You will see peoples true colors. Then. It'd take a year for the project to transition, but the new community that would rise out of this would be much better than the petty bickering and pathetic bullshit we see here today.

[Donkey Hotay]

I like you Loramin but screw reading 6 paragraphs saying the policies are great because the server is great because nothing is set in stone even though nothing changes.

[magnetaress]

Originally Posted by Donkey Hotay [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I like you Loramin but screw reading 6 paragraphs saying the policies are great because the server is great because nothing is set in stone even though nothing changes.

[Snortles Chortles]

elf dissertation on list
the thread

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Donkey Hotay [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I like you Loramin but screw reading 6 paragraphs saying the policies are great because the server is great because nothing is set in stone even though nothing changes.

Yup, nothing changes. https://wiki.project1999.com/Rulings ... with 25+ historical records of rule changes over the years ... doesn't exist. You're absolutely right [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look, things are not perfect here. Even if we had paid GMs, it still wouldn't be, and we'd have to live with that fact ... but it's especially true because the only people who will enforce these rules are the incredibly rare individuals who <3 P99 so much they choose NOT TO PLAY EVERQUEST, and instead spend hours every day just helping people. There's just not enough of such people, and so sometimes change is slow here.

And yet even so ... whatever its flaws ... this place is awesome AND it keeps getting better over time! If you can't see that, it's simply because you're refusing to look, but the evidence (eg. the Rulings page, the Raid History page, etc.) is there if you want to try.

[Donkey Hotay]

The same people get the loot every. time. This never changes. The policies never address this nor seem intended to.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Donkey Hotay [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The same people get the loot every. time. This never changes. The policies never address this nor seem intended to.

Are you saying "the people with the most time and energy to devote to the game always get the best pixels?" Because if so, congratulations: you understand how EverQuest works (and has worked since 1999) [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] This is a game that rewards time invested, so the people with the most time to invest get the most out of the game, by design.

If you mean something else, well ... you'll need to add some context.

[Donkey Hotay]

The same people game the same systems every time. The same Blue AC campers farming plat are loading up the list on Green for AC. The system implicitly allows it. The guys who were rotating /list were the guys who were going to chain-camp it if /list didn't exist. The systems just give a cover story for what was going to happen either way.