Thread about why You Hate Luclin

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by kaluppo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have to diasgree. Druids especially need teleport spells just to be a desirable class to play. Proof of this was how Sony tried to "fix" the Druid class with their 75% complete heal spell after they were completely broken because they made porting easy access to everyone. There are way too many clerics and shamans around for a Druid to be viable just because of superior healing. Wizards wouldn't be broken as much for end game raiding desirability but it would discourage a lot of people from wanting to level one to 55+.

And if making PP via class skills was to become a crime then where does it end? Clerics should not get a resurrection spell or epics because they can make lots of PP rezzing for donations? Chanters should not get Clarity because they can make lots of PP by selling crack for donations?

I think they did it right by giving a couple of classes port spells to compliment the boats as a means of travel between continents. Now if you want to say boat travel should be faster or boats should charge a small fee to be used then I could see an argument for that.

And that is INHERITED problem with class design and balance. Druid NEEDED ports so it can be useful in a group? Useless in combat but cash raking out of combat? That's just plain stupid. Druid were useless as healer because Brad made Cleric UNGODLY healers. Thankfully he saw his errors and that's why in EQ2 all 3 priests were balanced to be equally good healers but via doing different things.

And yes Cleric, Chanter, Druid casting spells for plat is poor class balance and bad game design. Yes classes should have buffs. But they should not be caste-able outside of group, and specially on low lev players because that's cheating. You NOT suppose to be running around with +400hp buff at lev 5.
I liked how buffs worked in EQ2 - as an aura. A caster has 5 buff slots, and you chose very careful which buffs you want going. Anyone who join the group - gets the buff benefit. No casting 20+ buffs on a lev 1 noob for PL, no selling them for plat.

Cleric epic is a horrendous game design. Item that doesn't go obsolete after 20 expansions is Terribad game design.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Preventing ports* by level, particularly NPC ports, is not the same as preventing travel by level (although inherently there must be places low level people aren't able to get to). If someone who started in Qeynos wants to play with their friend who is starting Dwarf, then they are going to have to run and meet up - an adventure! This also creates a further layer of community interaction, because low level players are going to need help running through certain areas.

I'm also perfectly fine with the idea of a race that is disconnected from the others, like for example if Vah Shir had to stay on Luclin until level 30 (could be easily explained by their bodies not being able to adapt to Norrath environment until maturity). Everyone knows going in if they pick the race, that's just the gameplay experience they are going to get. If a game ever had a Merfolk race, that would probably be a good way to do it - must stay underwater until you become mature enough to transform your tail into legs. EQ already had something very close to this with Iksar anyway - they were supposed to be extremely difficult to play in the Old World zones, pretty much needing to stay in Kunark unless you'd have enough friends to constantly vendor/bank for you elsewhere.

Ok I agree on Iksar example - note how it was very hard for them to go outside of Kunark, but it wasn't restricted artificially. Vah Shir NOT being able to leave Luclin at all due to hard level req would have been bad game design.
Your example with Merfolk is interesting one, but maybe too pushing. There was a game that tried something like that. I believe in Horizons you could play dragon, but you had to actually MATURE with time, rather than gaining levels, and it took forever, and game mostly failed. And that was even before WoW success.

Basically between going ALL LORE RPG and ALL EASY MODE gaming, I want to see a game that is something in between. Where RPG side is pushed to the max, but without becoming an artificial burden of gameplay.

[Raev]

Originally Posted by kaluppo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have to diasgree. Druids especially need teleport spells just to be a desirable class to play. Proof of this was how Sony tried to "fix" the Druid class with their 75% complete heal spell after they were completely broken because they made porting easy access to everyone.

I agree with you, but I think you are coming from the problem from the wrong viewpoint: taxi should not be the best ability of any class. TAKP actually has a very nice balance between the healers:

• Clerics: best and most efficient heal, biggest HP buffs, weak debuffs, no mana regen
• Shamans: worst and least efficient heals, worst HP buffs, best debuffs & mana regen
• Druids: in between on all fronts

I could definitely get behind a fee for using the Wizard spires. Every 20-30 minutes a Wizard appears at the portal and for the next 5 minutes you can give him 20 platinum to be translocated to the spire of your choice.

Anyway, the problem with EQ was that by the time they fixed the imbalances in one expansion they had created new ones in the next one, and thus they never really figured it out.

Also, once Nilbog & co are done replicating classic EQ I think it might be interesting to try perfecting it. I think late velious balance is actually pretty good, but it could definitely use a few tweaks.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your example with Merfolk is interesting one, but maybe too pushing. There was a game that tried something like that. I believe in Horizons you could play dragon, but you had to actually MATURE with time, rather than gaining levels, and it took forever, and game mostly failed. And that was even before WoW success.

I don't think it's punishing that Merfolk would need to stay underwater until a certain level. That would just be part of playing the game, if you pick the race. If you don't like the idea of playing underwater and being separated from other races until you level up significantly, then you just don't pick that race. This could have been the case with Vah Shir too; it's not bad design because it's restricted to something the player chooses. Race selection can be more than just physical appearance in a game; to me that should be the main point of what you choose actually - getting a different kind of gameplay experience (not just different in starting stats, or attributes like regeneration).

Horizons was originally planned as a very ambitious game with tons of great ideas, and would have moved the MMORPG genre in a very beneficial direction. Unfortunately it got ruined by money-hungry people who just wanted to make a quick profit for their own benefit. It was actually going to have a Merfolk race, with restrictions like I was talking about, but that race and the underwater zones got scrapped altogether. I don't know how the Dragons eventually got implemented in the very sad release version, but that's definitely a tricky thing to do.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think it's punishing that Merfolk would need to stay underwater until a certain level. That would just be part of playing the game, if you pick the race. If you don't like the idea of playing underwater and being separated from other races until you level up significantly, then you just don't pick that race. This could have been the case with Vah Shir too; it's not bad design because it's restricted to something the player chooses. Race selection can be more than just physical appearance in a game; to me that should be the main point of what you choose actually - getting a different kind of gameplay experience (not just different in starting stats, or attributes like regeneration).

Horizons was originally planned as a very ambitious game with tons of great ideas, and would have moved the MMORPG genre in a very beneficial direction. Unfortunately it got ruined by money-hungry people who just wanted to make a quick profit for their own benefit. It was actually going to have a Merfolk race, with restrictions like I was talking about, but that race and the underwater zones got scrapped altogether. I don't know how the Dragons eventually got implemented in the very sad release version, but that's definitely a tricky thing to do.

I see where you coming from, but this asymmetric race balance is very hard to achieve. Horizons also had planned Vampire race that could not ever go out during day light. With this perspective each race should have a significant perk, but if you have some races that normal and some with strong downside - they simply not going to be played by majority of players. I mean there are rogue-like game out-there that have this niche choices and some people play those and enjoy their RP, but in the big MMO market it won't work out.
EQ also tried some of this things but they mostly failed:
-Ogre Having Front Stun immunity is ridiculously OP for SKs and Shamans in end game.
-Iksar on other hands cannot wear plate armor in exchange of rather tiny AC bonus

When WoW first started Taurens had +3% hp over total max hp possible. This automatically made them best tank possible in the game. That was bad game design and they removed it.

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by Kika Maslyaka [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I see where you coming from, but this asymmetric race balance is very hard to achieve. Horizons also had planned Vampire race that could not ever go out during day light. With this perspective each race should have a significant perk, but if you have some races that normal and some with strong downside - they simply not going to be played by majority of players. I mean there are rogue-like game out-there that have this niche choices and some people play those and enjoy their RP, but in the big MMO market it won't work out.

When WoW first started Taurens had +3% hp over total max hp possible. This automatically made them best tank possible in the game. That was bad game design and they removed it.

I think those races like Vampire would be played plenty. People want a different experience. Even if certain races aren't popular that's perfectly fine, not everything needs to be popular.

Your example of Taurens in WoW shows how bad their overall design is. If 3% max HP is automatically making someone the best tank in a game, then there has not been enough consideration given to armor class or avoidance or other factors. You could easily slap some kind of downside on a race with a 3% max HP bonus - such as "vulnerable to fire" - and then they would become worse tanks in certain areas.

[Faxi]

I loved Luclin.

I loved most of the new player models. I played with mix of old and new.
AA's made the classes FAR more interesting and viable.
Raids and group content actually had MECHANICS and wasnt boring as fuck tank and spank snoozefests.
VT key was the guild-sized Epic quest that was difficult but awesome.
Gear itemization was finally not dumb as fuck.
Focus effects were great.
Beastlord class was great addition.
The Nexus spires eased the travel time waster just enough to make getting to groups less painful. And no, druids and wizards didnt suddenly go poor or bored. even in PoP, my druid was still making crazy plat doing ports.

The poopsockers and neckbeards will whine about the good ol' days but actually the game was never more popular or better.

[torriadore]

-My own preference of old models versus new models.
-The expansive world feeling really started to feel compressed when the spires etc took over.
-Ssra was great, VT was dull but still a decent time killer by some means, rest not so much.
-I also felt the graphics overall took a much uglier turn other than new enemy models. A lot of ugly and uninteresting outdoor zones in luclin.
-overall feeling of incompleteness.