How are Bards in the DPS department?

[falkun]

Originally Posted by pickled_heretic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

fair enough, there is 1 type of mob that will sometimes con green. but falkun was making it sound like the whole zone is green to a lvl 60 which is NOT the way it is. There are plenty of DBs, especially if you are pulling from VS guardians, and 2 bards should NOT be able to lock everything in the zone like they have been.

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If he is trying to mez dark blue mobs without someone malo/tashing each one, of course he is going to get a lot of resists. In the case of KC, you had multiple 55+ (probably all four are 60) bards mezzing mobs that were low dark blue at the most, green at the least. And there were 4 of them, of course they are going to be able to lock down the mobs better.

Not sure where you drew the conclusion that I said the whole zone was green, but Franswa has proven that a large portion of KC is LB to L60, which will obviously be easier to mez than high dark blue due to how much level discrepancy affects resist rates.

Originally Posted by pickled_heretic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Do you think this song was highly resisted during classic in its aoe state or not? If not, why did you post evidence showing the contrary?

What I think or think I remember is irrelevant, what I have found evidence for contradicts what you think. You have failed to provide evidence for what you think, the onus is on you to provide evidence the spell is broken, not me.

Originally Posted by pickled_heretic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

an unresolved bug

Prove your opinion with evidence please. And congratulations on losing 1kPP, you really proved that point as well!

[pickled_heretic]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not sure where you drew the conclusion that I said the whole zone was green, but Franswa has proven that a large portion of KC is LB to L60, which will obviously be easier to mez than high dark blue due to how much level discrepancy affects resist rates.

What I think or think I remember is irrelevant, what I have found evidence for contradicts what you think. You have failed to provide evidence for what you think, the onus is on you to provide evidence the spell is broken, not me.

Prove your opinion with evidence please. And congratulations on losing 1kPP, you really proved that point as well!

you yourself have provided evidence that the song was nerfed to uselessness during this era. what evidence do i need to provide? I already reposted the quote you posted. Should I post it again? here, I'll do just that.

Here's the REAL story of the former AE mez...
In beta it was super overpowered. It could lock down an entire zone. This caused all bard mez songs to have a second resist check added. Essentially, the song could land but not affect the creature. This led to the supremacy of Enchanters in crowd controlling (and monks in pulling, as a bard's only tool for controlling a lull failure was removed).

Bards complained bitterly about this state of affairs, while Verant denied there was any problem. This came to a head in a famous (among bards at least) episode where a dev came to watch a demonstration in the Qeynos newbie yard as a high level bard attempted to mez the level 1 snakes, only to have a near 100% resist rate.

Eventually the second resist check was removed, and this song changed to single target.

You have to have a seriously distorted view of the world to try to accept this quote as evidence without accepting its implications.

[pickled_heretic]

also, i'm more than happy to give the platinum, especially to someone who might need it. even if they are a bard.

[Tuffpuppy]

I do not see how pickled_heretics information is wrong at all. He never said that they could do great dps while meleeing, but rather using charm to out dps the other melee in the group, which they would.

[Francois]

Originally Posted by Francois [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please give my platinum reward to my favorite aspiring bard, Bansho.

Paid in full. That was quick.

[falkun]

Originally Posted by pickled_heretic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you yourself have provided evidence that the song was nerfed to uselessness during this era. what evidence do i need to provide? I already reposted the quote you posted. Should I post it again? here, I'll do just that.
You have to have a seriously distorted view of the world to try to accept this quote as evidence without accepting its implications.

And that post is one example that was provided, originally written after the song was nerfed to single target. It is not an accurate quote from the actual era.

I posted other pieces of evidence from the era when the song was an AE mez that portray that the song did actually work at mezzing and was not "useless". You must construct additional arguments; one post from "memory" does not an argument make when multiple posts from "experiences" have been provided proving the opposite.

[pickled_heretic]

Originally Posted by falkun [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And that post is one example that was provided, originally written after the song was nerfed to single target. It is not an accurate quote from the actual era.

I posted other pieces of evidence from the era when the song was an AE mez that portray that the song did actually work at mezzing and was not "useless". You must construct additional arguments; one post from "memory" does not an argument make when multiple posts from "experiences" have been provided proving the opposite.

iEQCastersrealm via wayback machine:

While there is some question whether this song had a memory blur effect in its original release version, there is no question now. Verant have stated categorically and repeatedly that there is not. Any apparent effect is simply the result of the bard leaping to the top of every mob's hate list in his/her usual fashion. Secondary resists, on the other hand, are a new feature added in late 1999. Verant claims that low greens should make their secondary resist rolls about 35% of the time, and that even cons should make it about 50% of the time. Actual logs suggest that in practice all mobs make the roll at least 50% of the time, and even cons or higher make it rather more often than that. Furthermore, while primary resists are affected by the Bard's charisma and string skills, the secondary resist is not affected by anything but level.

After seeing a post by Gordon (or GZ, I cant remember), They basically said that the song is not very usable after level 25. So, rather then the song having been nerfed, its that the effect is much less after attaining level 25.

Despite insistence to the contrary this song has changed since release. At one time mobs that failed to resist never attacked before they woke up normally. Somewhere in there though they started getting a second save effectively and now mobs fail to resist ie "soandso Nods" yet they attack away as if nothing ever happened. This happens about 25% of the time probably due to the double effect-double resist.

Actual quote from Geoffrey Zatkin:

As most high level enchanters from Beta+ can tell you, there are two saving throws that happen with an “Enthrall” style effect (such as Kelin’s Lucid Lullaby) hits a creature. The first saving throw is against the target’s Magic Resistance. The second saving throw only happens with high level monsters – they get a secondary save based on their level. The reason for this is that the Enthrall effect is very, very powerful – it allows a single player to remove a creature from combat. This means that a party that could handle two “X” level mobs might be able to take three, or even four of them on if there is somebody around with the Enthrall effect.

Because of this (read game balance) higher level monsters have a harder time being enthralled. At lower levels, a single player can take out a single opponent of equal level. By mid levels this is much harder, and by high levels it is virtually impossible. Allowing a single player to remove one or more creatures from combat at high levels is sick level powerful – to the point that we designed an entire classes specialty around doing it.

The second saving throw does not send a message the environment – and that is something that is on our list of issues to address. There are, however, no bugs with the Song.

Basically the song is missing an additional saving throw. Green con mobs above lvl 25 should have a 35% flat chance to save against the song in addition to their normal save, blue cons have a flat 50% chance to resist the song.

[falkun]

Link sources! I'd love to read originals.

[pickled_heretic]

http://www.angelfire.com/bc/brentcop.../jan06003.html

http://web.archive.org/web/200201131...?Id=996&Page=2

[Nizzarr]

The bards in this thread are doing their best impression of this guy:


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