How about...(raidmobs)

[YendorLootmonkey]

I don't see how 100% variance will eliminate poopsocking between two guilds who have already demonstrated they will do whatever it takes to kill the target first. And if that means poopsocking longer because the spawn window is greater, then that's what it will boil down to until you burn everyone in your guilds out until you can no longer muster a raid force, and then you'll have to merge/mass-recruit again.

As was said above, the only way to fix this is to change the attitudes. VP is not important. The world will not end if someone else gets a raid target. People won't remember what pixels you had.

[Loke]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't see how 100% variance will eliminate poopsocking between two guilds who have already demonstrated they will do whatever it takes to kill the target first. And if that means poopsocking longer because the spawn window is greater, then that's what it will boil down to until you burn everyone in your guilds out until you can no longer muster a raid force, and then you'll have to merge/mass-recruit again.

As was said above, the only way to fix this is to change the attitudes. VP is not important. The world will not end if someone else gets a raid target. People won't remember what pixels you had.

I disagree, you realize that they'd have to spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week on every spawn they wanted to poopsock? I'm as hard core as the next power gamer, but that simply isn't possible. Even with the 15 man rule that would mean 15 people actively online in one spot for.. well, ever. I'm willing to bet 100k that no guild would do that. What would happen is guilds would find a location that they feel allowed them the quickest access to the mobs they want. Maybe people would camp down in trak's lair, but unless they plan on spending every waking second down there for the rest of the time they play here, they're going to leave eventually. I honestly think it would force guilds into mobilization more - while Trak's lair might be the home base for guilds to mobilize from, the poopsocking would have to essentially end.

[Mezzmur]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree, you realize that they'd have to spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week on every spawn they wanted to poopsock? I'm as hard core as the next power gamer, but that simply isn't possible. Even with the 15 man rule that would mean 15 people actively online in one spot for.. well, ever. I'm willing to bet 100k that no guild would do that. What would happen is guilds would find a location that they feel allowed them the quickest access to the mobs they want. Maybe people would camp down in trak's lair, but unless they plan on spending every waking second down there for the rest of the time they play here, they're going to leave eventually. I honestly think it would force guilds into mobilization more - while Trak's lair might be the home base for guilds to mobilize from, the poopsocking would have to essentially end.

One thing people miss is that 95% of TMO and TR do camp on the ledge. You usually have 1-3 people watching the spawn and sometimes people doing reets/juggs.

Most people go afk, wait for batphone or play alts. Of all the kills TMO have been involved in, only 1 was spawn-socking and it was because Trak was down to the last 6 hours of his spawn window. At that point, the probability is so high, everyone was just sitting and waiting.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Loke [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I disagree, you realize that they'd have to spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week on every spawn they wanted to poopsock? I'm as hard core as the next power gamer, but that simply isn't possible. Even with the 15 man rule that would mean 15 people actively online in one spot for.. well, ever. I'm willing to bet 100k that no guild would do that. What would happen is guilds would find a location that they feel allowed them the quickest access to the mobs they want. Maybe people would camp down in trak's lair, but unless they plan on spending every waking second down there for the rest of the time they play here, they're going to leave eventually. I honestly think it would force guilds into mobilization more - while Trak's lair might be the home base for guilds to mobilize from, the poopsocking would have to essentially end.

No, because you will get the same escalation from the "Must deny other guild, must get target ourselves at all costs" mentality that currently exists.

You start with mobilization. One guild is better at it than others, so the other guild says "Welp, we want to beat them to the raid targets, and we know they're all camped at the ledge, so we will poopsock in-game to beat them."

So then the "competition" changes from "who can mobilize faster", which TR wants to compete on (obviously because they have the advantage there), to "who can kill the raid target". Then, TR's advantage is removed and they invariably troll the other guild for not being able to out-mobilize them. But the game is about who kills the target and gets the loot, not a game of "who can race to their computers and log in their fully buffed raid force first upon batphone signal". TR tried to make the competition about that because that is their forte. In reality, it all comes down to who gets the kill.

So the poopsocking starts, and then TR realizes they're at a disadvantage unless they do the same thing. So they start poopsocking, too. But because the prevalent attitude is "VP is the end goal, loot > all, deny the other guild at all costs", then you can't afford to not be there poopsocking along with the other guild. Regardless of the variance.

Because you're not going to sit there and tell me there's some magical % variance that guilds will automatically stop poopsocking the primary target that they want to kill before the other guild at all costs. Because "more time invested yields greater rewards" is still hard-wired into your brains.

So then both guilds are back at poopsocking, trying to get the mob engaged before the other guild as soon as it spawns. You can't afford not to be there if another guild is willing to poopsock at 50%, 75%, or even 100% variance. One accuses the other of creating the poopsocking situation, when in reality it was just a normal response to "do what it takes to get the mob before the other guys do". They aren't going to compete against TR at mobilization. Why should they? They'd rather force TR into a Mexican poopsock standoff and try to burn TR out before they get burnt out.

Then, the first guild that gets burned out has to merge/mass-recruit and the other guild's response is to immediately brand them as zerglings.

Then that other guild realizes they are no longer competitive because they just burnt a subset of their guild out during Poopsock Wars II: The Feces Strikes Back. Then THEY have to merge/mass-recruit.

And then the cycle begins again, burning people out faster than should be normal because the mentalities of both guilds require them both to not stand down and yield raid targets to the other guild. Ever wonder why we're still around 750 players online prime time? Probably because this server can never grow past that critical mass due to the tier 1 guilds creating situations against each other that burn players out. How awesome is that for the health of the server? Great job, munchkins.

[azeth]

Originally Posted by JenJen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I fail to understand why rotation isnt considered appealing? or is VP not rotationable?

There are 2 main reasons why rotations do not work, or aren't seriously considered:

1. At no point will the 2-3 guilds in question share an equal amount of kills ( 2 guilds 50/50, 3 guilds 33/34/33 etc). So, whichever guild is getting the lion's share has far less reason to consider rotating with the lesser competitors. It doesn't matter whether the power balance shifts every now and then, 1 guild will always be the 60+/40-.

2. On P99, right now, the second reason is less meaningful because there truely are only 2 guilds capable of fielding #s to kill Trakanon/eventually VP. However, often rotations fail due to the rotation having not accounted for other guilds who may start taking their shots are "your" or "their" targets.

[Skope]

btw, i like how you still ignore the rest of my posts that have validity in order to drive home a single point you disagree with. You're probably the best on the entire server in this respect. You have an incredible talent in keeping quiet about things you hate within your own guild by not saying a word even if you agree with some of my points. I'm not being snotty when i say this, i mean it quite genuinely

I still <3 you, btw, but I meant what i said. I've dealt with almost all of your officers and lots of your members in the time i've been here and have only come across a couple i can actually have a casual conversation with in tells, and oddly enough you're probably one of them =P

[tekniq]

i'm tellin you guys. GMs should spawn ALL mobs at once so everyone will have a chance to get their players, strategize on importance and mobilize to get the most targets for theday.

[Happyfeet]

Originally Posted by tekniq [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

i'm tellin you guys. GMs should spawn ALL mobs at once so everyone will have a chance to get their players, strategize on importance and mobilize to get the most targets for theday.

That doesn't solve anything, because Trak is still top priority for TMO/TR. All that would do is give other guilds besides those two a single chance at VS before Trak is dead in 2 minutes and TMO/TR are porting to DL and gating to their binds at KC to then steal VS if not instantly killed.
Doesn't solve Trak, and allows a single chance for other guilds to get VS =/= solution to anything.

[Skope]

Loke, you understand that whatever the rules are (and there have been many) the two guilds (and in my eyes you'll always be just 2 guilds) have always had that shitty approach that has only festered and created more problems, regardless of what the raid rules are, right? That's why I'm saying it's dickheads leading the charge, and a quick glance at the names for anyone who's been here long enough only goes to show that. you're not one of them, so quit acting like one. instead, try to explain to both sides that they need to take a softer approach, otherwise things won't change.

You MUST understand that from the GMs perspective they want to see your can handle the shit on your own before they start changing the rules for the better. The way the server's history is, though, it isn't until shit really hits the fan that the GMs even notice and that the community as a whole complains to a point that there must be change. The first thing to consider for them is "will it require more or less work?" and a 7-day variance still doesn't fix the play nice issue, but it will partially cure poopsock (depending on what spawns and when), but it'll also introduce quite a nice reason to SEQ on those guild trackers. In b4 new IP exemptions. in my opinion, a massive variance does nothing to fix the real problem.

Btw, you talking to me about changing the raid rules is the epitome of preaching to the choir. I'm not the one you need to convince here, I've been convinced since last year. where the hell were you?

[Loke]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Loke, you understand that whatever the rules are (and there have been many) the two guilds (and in my eyes you'll always be just 2 guilds) have always had that shitty approach that has only festered and created more problems, regardless of what the raid rules are, right?

History would indicate that you're right in this statement, however, I feel that isn't a justification to not try something new. If something isn't working, why keep doing it? I'm not saying a 100% variance would fix every problem on the server, but does anyone honestly think it could make it any worse?

As far as where I've been - I've been pushing a 100% variance since like spring of 2010 when I was with DA and myself, Tullian (who was with WI at the time) and someone from IB (can't remember who, Ektar maybe?) were all discussing it. I know that you've been trying to push to have the variance removed completely, and while I don't think that will solve any problems (I actually think it would cause more since it would just include more guilds in on the drama) - I'd fully support trying it out for a few weeks. All I'm saying is for people to claim there isn't a problem is asinine and counter productive. We need to stop pointing fingers, we need to stop playing this stupid blame game and just come up with a solution.