Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yep, this sounds right. The pet nerf wasn't that big, just max hit of 8 damage? When including damage shield that number should still hold.

Anyway, this can all be calculated. The mage pet is higher level, higher max damage, duel wield, and backstab compared to the Shaman pet. Just plug in those numbers to see the difference. Safe to say, it's a very big gap.

I'll load some parses tomorrow when i have time but i just got off my 60 mage in crypt/emp and average dps per mob bounced from the low end of 75dps to the high end of 157dps. Not all that different than what i told DSm was possible. I'm not sure why this is controversial.

Mages are good at what they do ... getting shit killed and fast.

So much for most underpowered class eh?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'll load some parses tomorrow when i have time but i just got off my 60 mage in crypt/emp and average dps per mob bounced from the low end of 75dps to the high end of 157dps. Not all that different than what i told DSm was possible. I'm not sure why this is controversial.

Mages are good at what they do ... getting shit killed and fast.

So much for most underpowered class eh?

Thanks for letting me know the area. The parses will let me know your strategy and how often you can hit the high end before medding. Sadly that isn't great DPS for a level 60 caster in Seb.

In Seb I can root rot 3 mobs solo. I could easily root rot 4 mobs in a group. That means I am doing 136 DPS with DoTs. Looking at my Cliff Golems video my pet is doing about 11 DPS hasted, and JBB clicks would be another 5 DPS. In Seb JBB would get resisted less than Cliff Golems, so that could be higher. In total that means I can do 152 DPS sustained pretty consistently in an easier area like Seb. Shamans aren't even a DPS class.

Remember, I never said underpowered = bad. It just means Mages don't bring a lot to the table (which they sadly don't outside of CoTH). I wouldn't bring a Mage if that's all they can do. Shamans can output your DPS if necessary, have a decently tanky pet with Torpor, and they have a lot more utility to boot. Just bring Tolapumj Robes for Enchanter Pets since they are better than muzzles and you are good to go.

This is talking about level 60 grouping. Before Torpor/Epic Shamans are putting out lower DPS, and Mages are better.

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Not everyone has the Robe, it can't just be assumed.

If you are the type of person who thinks adding even 1 DPS is going to make a difference (like yourself), you are going to have a robe. They are dirt cheap and Enchanters can farm plat well. An Enchanter without a robe doesn't care about losing some DPS. Even on Green then are less than 2k.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Thanks for letting me know the area. The parses will let me know your strategy and how often you can hit the high end before medding. Sadly that isn't great DPS for a level 60 caster in Seb.

In Seb I can root rot 3 mobs solo. I could easily root rot 4 mobs in a group. That means I am doing 136 DPS with DoTs. Looking at my Cliff Golems video my pet is doing about 11 DPS hasted, and JBB clicks would be another 5 DPS. In Seb JBB would get resisted less than Cliff Golems, so that could be higher. In total that means I can do 152 DPS sustained pretty consistently in an easier area like Seb. Shamans aren't even a DPS class.

Remember, I never said underpowered = bad. It just means Mages don't bring a lot to the table (which they sadly don't outside of CoTH). I wouldn't bring a Mage if that's all they can do. Shamans can output your DPS if necessary, have a decently tanky pet with Torpor, and they have a lot more utility to boot. Just bring Tolapumj Robes for Enchanter Pets since they are better than muzzles and you are good to go.

This is talking about level 60 grouping. Before Torpor/Epic Shamans are putting out lower DPS, and Mages are better.


If you are the type of person who thinks adding even 1 DPS is going to make a difference (like yourself), you are going to have a robe. They are dirt cheap and Enchanters can farm plat well. An Enchanter without a robe doesn't care about losing some DPS. Even on Green then are less than 2k.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here. Nobody is rotting 4 mobs at a time with an enchanter group. Therefore mage single mob dps is superior. You’ll never have 4 mobs rotted long enough for shaman dps to matter in a group where you’re plowing through mobs. This is a silly statement to make in this context. You’re just highlighting what shamans can do solo with enough mobs rooted which is cool, but totally pointless in this setting and you’ll be stuck doing shit dps.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here. Nobody is rotting 4 mobs at a time with an enchanter group. Therefore mage single mob dps is superior. You’ll never have 4 mobs rotted long enough for shaman dps to matter in a group where you’re plowing through mobs. This is a silly statement to make in this context. You’re just highlighting what shamans can do solo with enough mobs rooted which is cool, but totally pointless in this setting and you’ll be stuck doing shit dps.

You easily can. Have a few mobs in camp being DoTed, have Ench pets killing others. You just aren't very imaginative hehe. If DPS is your only concern, you can easily have 4 rooted in camp while Ench pets are hitting x amount of other mobs. If you are pulling that much it's easy to have all those mobs.

[Danth]

Multi-target damage is a different beast than single-target damage and peak damage is likewise distinct from average damage dealt. Shamans can achieve pretty good peak damage values, both multi- or single-target, but it takes them a long time to ramp it up and during that ramp-up period they're doing less so it pulls down the average. If stuff is dying relatively fast, as it will in a multi-charm group, many targets will already have a large portion of their health gone by the time the shaman can get going. Such conditions play to the strength of characters who have minimal ramp-up times.

I think we should largely ignore area-based damage in a multi-enchanter group. Such a hypothetical group is virtually always going to favor heavy usage of either lull splitting or mesmerize and will attack targets one-by-one for the most part. Sure they *could* fight multiples at a time...but in practice they're not going to. On the other hand....maybe we should dive into the theory-craft after all. Why not? We're already discussing this potential 3- or 4-enchanter group that effectively doesn't exist in practice as it is. If we're talking fairy-tales anyway I suppose we can go full on if we want to.

I still say this group adding a 4th, if they aren't adding another enchanter, would look between magician and shaman and pick a necromancer instead.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

I'm just showing the facts of the math. Even with 2 mobs root rotted while the Enchanters are killing with Charm pets a Shaman will hit the Mage's minimum DPS. The reality is you just like the feel of the faster single target DPS of a Mage. That doesn't make it objectively better, which is what we are discussing.

You don't need to lull split in Seb generally if your group has good resists. Just bring them in and Root/Slow. At 200 MR/FR/CR spells never land on me in Seb. DoT the extras while waiting for the Charmed pets to chew down another mob. It's easy in Seb if you are clearing most areas including Crypt/Emp.

[Danth]

Well, you're not arguing math with me exactly because you're not showing me anything I don't already know. Rather I'm arguing would vs. could. I don't know any three-enchanter groups but the two-enchanter groups I know don't operate that way, not even when they add a DOT-based character. They could, but they don't. Since this entire discussion amounts to theory-craft it's probably the wrong tack to try to limit myself to real-game situations. Really I ought to stand aside and let the dreamers dream.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, you're not arguing math with me exactly because you're not showing me anything I don't already know. Rather I'm arguing would vs. could. I don't know any three-enchanter groups but the two-enchanter groups I know don't operate that way, not even when they add a DOT-based character. They could, but they don't. Since this entire discussion amounts to theory-craft it's probably the wrong tack to try to limit myself to real-game situations. Really I ought to stand aside and let the dreamers dream.

Danth

Just because you prefer to play one way, doesn't mean that is the best way[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] And for people who are clamoring that "DPS is better than everything", I am showing them that they can get the same DPS just fine. Don't blame me for simply looking at the facts lol. I know how Seb mobs work, you could do what I suggested just fine and get the Same DPS. It's really not theory craft. Preference is irrelevant. Remember that 2 Charmed pets can only attack up to 2 mobs at a time. So you can have 4-6 mobs in camp and DoT up the mobs that aren't being killed.

DPS is the key argument for bringing a Mage, and they can't even hit higher numbers than a Shaman. Their lack of utility means they are just sub-par compared to a Shaman in Seb. That isn't to say you can't play with a Mage. If you want to that's great! Most people aren't Min/Maxing their groups to begin with, regardless of what other people try to claim hehe. Remember this is level 60 we are talking about.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's really not theory craft..

Something remains theory right up until people actually start doing it on a regular basis.
Today, they don't. Sometimes good ideas and new strategies originate from such theorizing. Gameplay and popular tactics do change over time.

I'm with you on the damage isn't everything argument which is why at the very least I'd rather have three enchanters and a cleric (or necro, someone with a rez) over four enchanters. The damage > all crowd tend to ignore deaths and other setbacks as "doesn't count" and write it off. I do not think all that highly of magicians, but they will do higher average damage than a shaman in this type of group the way such groups actually operate, today. I don't think the extra damage amounts to a hill of beans though, not when multiple charm pets are already ripping through everything, but me caring about what matters seems to be the outlier in this rather fanciful discussion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Something remains theory right up until people actually start doing it on a regular basis.
Today, they don't. Sometimes good ideas and new strategies originate from such theorizing. Gameplay and popular tactics do change over time.

I'm with you on the damage isn't everything argument which is why at the very least I'd rather have three enchanters and a cleric (or necro, someone with a rez) over four enchanters. The damage > all crowd tend to ignore deaths and other setbacks as "doesn't count" and write it off. I do not think all that highly of magicians, but they will do higher average damage than a shaman in this type of group the way such groups actually operate, today. I don't think the extra damage amounts to a hill of beans though, not when multiple charm pets are already ripping through everything, but me caring about what matters seems to be the outlier in this rather fanciful discussion.

I agree with most of this. I am simply saying just because "groups operate in x manner" doesn't mean it is the only optimal way to play. The argument isn't "Mage is better because of preference", people are arguing "Mages objectively do a ton of damage, therefore bring them instead of another class."

But at least for the Seb example, the numbers aren't adding up to make Mages special at all. At best they can DPS at the same level as a Shaman, but I am willing to bet the 157 DPS Troxx was talking about involved nuking, which isn't sustainable. The med times are going to hurt your overall DPS/kills per hour. But we will need to see the actual logs to confirm this. Having Torpor/Epic means a Shaman can sustain the DPS longer, without needing a break.