i went to a church

[Vormotus]

MRW As a Clinical Psychologist people bring IQ into the table :

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[Irulan]

I started off talking about sin. Dunno if sin correlates to intelligence. I'll buy it. I find highly rational people tend to be more focused and driven achievers, not a lot of time for Avedia.

[Vormotus]

Originally Posted by Irulan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dunno if sin correlates to intelligence..

That is an interesting take on the issue, but I believe it could be further elaborated.

Personally I believe there must be a clear division between the Will to Act Out on a Pulsation and Self Control for example.

We all are either tormented or flooded with classical pulsations , that more or less, for the sake of the argument end up being "sins".

So if we take a concept of intelligence as a set of internal tools to solve problems in your environment the capacity to find proper forms to handle them becomes "intelligence", regardless of you acting out eventually or not.

Though I personally have to stop there, as I think I am digressing.

Personally I believe there are no sins, only things you are not allowed to be seen doing as it shows you are willing to take advantage of whatever ruleset your community spouses and break it for your gratification.

In an inherently nihilistic universe, sins are mental constructs with no inherent values, sames as virtues, and yet again I digress.

In a post modern society sins are even harder to define, same with intelligence, as whatever norms applies will slowly be eroded to be replaced by new forms of thought meant to dissolved the communal and fragment us further into shapeless and formless concepts.

And here I still digress too.

I believe the issue is one of expectations versus reality to be honest.

Intelligence as a hard measure of problem solving is to be honest an outdated concept, further muddied by the sofisms of post modern culture and thought, where people diluted whatever normativity existed with indigo children, emotional intelligence (arghh) and even old quakery disguised as revolutionary achievements like Happiness Universities and Diplomas.

The field is simply too convoluted to be seen critically, much less on the internet, where everyone maintains their own field of resonance and simply goes through it with the mindset to further reinforce it rather than add to it or reform it.

And again, I must excuse myself, for I still digress ...

If this Generation Killed God or any Theism left, I believe we killed Sin too and are shackled up with the next best thing: Neo-Legalism, with the Constitution as a Holy Book and Lawyers as the new Priesthood, and whatever shades of gray exists between states and local laws, which are your run of the mill holy texts and apocrypha.

So to make it short, in my humble opinion, instead of looking for correlations between sin and intelligence, look for something else[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just a note: these are my inane ramblings, not well thought out as I work on other things , so take them with a grain of salt haha

Much love to you from the Isthmus! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Wonkie]

god is believed to be dead and he must let the world think that he is dead until he can find a way to control the raging spirit that dwells within him

[Vormotus]

Originally Posted by Wonkie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

god is believed to be dead and he must let the world think that he is dead until he can find a way to control the raging spirit that dwells within him

For some reason your post made me remember one of the most awesome euro tabletop rpgs ever made:


KULT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kult_(role-playing_game)

It is sooooo damn goood.

One of those RPGs with weird rulesets that made no sense but such awesome backstory of grimdarkness that it literally makes angels weep.

I highly reccomend it.

Disappearance of the Demiurge
One of the more central elements of the game is that the Demiurge has disappeared since just before the 20th century, and since then Astaroth, the Archons and the Death Angels have been struggling for power. Many entities have vanished since, and the Illusion has been weakened. The game leaves a lot to the imagination of interpretive game masters regarding reasons for the Demiurge's disappearance as well as the earlier mentioned divinity of mankind.

[skarlorn]

Vormotus has absolutely dominated this page of the thread with all the style ild expect from a fellow M&B enthusiast

[Patriam1066]

Yeah I’m gonna pick up that game

[Irulan]

I feel you to some degree Vormotus in regards to your comment on legalism. It's honestly not that new I think.

I think sin is something that "hurts" us. In a spiritual sense. I've thought a fair bit about it, considering myself as a sinful abomination in God's eyes.

However there's a lot of room for translation and interpretation of sin, and God, and God's plan. It's not a binary construct. Sin is analog. Analogue. It's meant to be that way. When we are sinning we are doing harm in the eyes of God. We are beloved of him, so obviously what harms us, or his creation that we are a part of is sin. Sometimes that's not so obvious. So we need a story, or history, or experience, given us by God to help figure out what is harmful.

Now, less intelligent people tend to innately seem to lack an ability to better ones self. The get rejected so they drink. Or spend all their money. Or lust after what their friend has that they don't. These people don't want to serve God or his creation. They are unaware of it. They don't know how to use their experience in creating virtue. A better world. Or at least trying to live better lives in the sense that they are respectful and grateful for life. The very ability to feel gratitude and receive grace IMO from God is in a way a blessing. We can't achieve this through sin. We must do what we are here to do. Otherwise we are going against God and sinning. In doing so, even if we are still conscious we experience a kind of death. We lack the grace to appreciate God's creation and a bright heavenly future extending beyond us.

Virtue on the other hand is the opposite of sin. It is the perfection of life. Care for that life, and that which that life is a part of and belongs to. That's why it's virtuous to help the elderly by cooking meals for them. Or to see that your buddy makes it home to his kids if there's a particularly dangerous mission to volunteer for.

Now intelligent people see this big picture thinking innately and regardless of the rules, or what it says in some silly translation of a translated book, and they do what is right because they see all this. They are successful at this. Intelligence is useless without care, but it's impossible to care without seeing the value in it.

Some people are just basic and all about instant gratification. They lack the enlightenment. They are unsuccessful and more like stones. They are the environment. In a way this is sinful because God tells us to be alive. The God force whatever you want to call it. That we should care and expend effort outside of our basic instinct to fuck and eat and kill. That doesn't really separate these people and make them Godless. They're still here, and it's the job of the virtuous to help raise these people up out of sin.

Anyway. There's my take on it. Sinners aren't anything special. What's special is virtue and those angels blessed with God's enlightenment. They move us to step out of sin and into God's universe. One he graciously shares with us through the gift of free will. The choice to follow our basic impulses and sin. Or the choice to seek something bigger than ourselves and our own personal gratification. Once we take the first step it becomes clear the gifted are very often virtuous in that they help to elevate all of us along with them.

[Vormotus]

Originally Posted by Irulan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Some people are just basic and all about instant gratification. They lack the enlightenment. They are unsuccessful and more like stones. They are the environment.

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Yes, I totally love this ...

You are welcome to our group if you ever travel abroad. Magnificent visualization!


Back on topic, yes, I understand where you are coming from.

But , and there is always one, I am now stuck on the why you believe yourself to be an abomination, a sinful one at that in the eyes of the Divine?

What leads you, after explaining your concept of sin so uniquely , to lather yourself in it by describing your very existence like that?

I feel I cannot progress further in this point if I failed to understand your self-description ... [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[skarlorn]

Ty for quoting that I did not read the post but Irulan wrote a beautiful sentence

Feeling blessed to have u among us brother Vormotus