Best Server Community Sin--Wait, Nevermind

[Pico]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If it doesn't mean anything to you, or you think I'm taking it too personally, or you'd rather make snide jokes, flame, add insulting tags or responses to me or the other side, or any other excuse you have to not actually consider the principle of what I'm saying, then I'm willing to venture at this point that you're exactly the person who needs to take a step back and actually think about it, regardless of which side you think was in the right. The way we feel about the people we play games with (whether we think they're jerks or they're just obstacles in the way of our advancement) matters, and if you think a video game isn't an appropriate forum for issues of justice versus law or human nature, you're already behind.

This is the most white-knightiest thing I've ever read on any internet forum ever. I really think (for your own mental health) you need to take an emotional step or two back from this game, or you're going to have a complete nervous breakdown before you hit level 20.

[Rhodes]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What happened between the members of VD and Rilen was wrong.

[Acillatem]

So if 15 DA sit in Sol B and poopsock the fuk outta Naggy for 72 hours....and he pops...and they wipe...according to some people in this thread it is a pretty douchebag move for anyone else to take their guild in and take a stab at him..

Cuz after all....DA was there for 3 fuking days...camping a mob....and then died..

Ya - I think it's safe to say 99% of the time - the norm is "sux you died, it's our turn now".

And yer a bunch of hypocrites if you argue otherwise.

[Bubbles]

Originally Posted by Pico [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is the most white-knightiest thing I've ever read on any internet forum ever. I really think (for your own mental health) you need to take an emotional step or two back from this game, or you're going to have a complete nervous breakdown before you hit level 20.

^^
If this thread was to be locked, it would be a shame that this would not be the final post, cuz it sums up everything perfectly well.

[shuklak]

Originally Posted by Acillatem [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So if 15 DA sit in Sol B and poopsock the fuk outta Naggy for 72 hours....and he pops...and they wipe...according to some people in this thread it is a pretty douchebag move for anyone else to take their guild in and take a stab at him..

Cuz after all....DA was there for 3 fuking days...camping a mob....and then died..

Ya - I think it's safe to say 99% of the time - the norm is "sux you died, it's our turn now".

And yer a bunch of hypocrites if you argue otherwise.

I'm too new to understand the terminology (DA, poopsock?) but I was a guildleader of a successful raiding guild before. And my take would be of course if someone brought their guild to kill a raid mob and wiped that I would let them try again. Assuming they have a shot, and everyone knows who has a legitimate shot.

It costs me nothing to ask them how many more shots are they going to take. If they don't kill it I can try tomorrow in most cases. But if I go in there and steal it, now I've got a lot of people with headaches and an e-reputation because I didn't want to find something else to do.

[soup]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just find it interesting that it's only a douchebag move when someone takes over a camp if someone dies. Why isn't it an equally douchebag move to expect someone to relinquish a camp to you after you failed to maintain it? To me, that is equally loot-centric.

The only difference, of course, is what side of the situation you're on, now, isn't it?

While you're busy slapping down links to strawman arguments, go look up slippery slope. How long is someone expected to wait for someone to get back to a camp after dying before it becomes unclaimed? 5 mins? 30 mins? 3 hours? Now you're just making up arbitrary rules because the ones in place don't benefit you in a particular situation and anyone who disagrees is clearly a loot-centric douchebag? Convenient.

And utterly ridiculous and contrived.

Bahahaha. You know that slippery slope is also a fallacy, right? Basically what you just did was get called out on a logical fallacy, so you use another logical fallacy to defend yourself, WHILE CITING WHAT THAT FALLACY IS. I mean, I've seen enough of your posts to think you probably aren't a complete moron or anything, but that wasn't a very well thought out response to my post, lol.

[soup]

Originally Posted by Acillatem [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So if 15 DA sit in Sol B and poopsock the fuk outta Naggy for 72 hours....and he pops...and they wipe...according to some people in this thread it is a pretty douchebag move for anyone else to take their guild in and take a stab at him..

Cuz after all....DA was there for 3 fuking days...camping a mob....and then died..

Ya - I think it's safe to say 99% of the time - the norm is "sux you died, it's our turn now".

And yer a bunch of hypocrites if you argue otherwise.

If you can't see the major glaring differences between the two scenarios then I seriously worry about your mental capacities.

I've always thought of Vesica Dei as being good people and wanted to write of this incident as being misrepresented or bad apples or whatever, but seeing plenty of Vesica members defending it with faulty logic is kind of disheartening.

[soup]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT: TLDR; if this post is too long for you, don't bother reading it and don't bother responding.

This is going to be my last post on this thread, barring a direct question or attack, since I think it has gone as far as it can (or should), and even if my original intention wasn't to go in an RnF direction, some of the replies have definitely gone farther that way than I would have anticipated without more experience with the forum community (which I have learned today is not at all to be confused with the actual in-game community, probably fortunately).

First of all, to clear up a few things:
1. I've played EQ before--classic--a lot. Druid by the name of Demoree on Innoruuk had most of my time--ended up I think just inside of level 52 before I quit right after PoP was released. I'm new to the server, not the game.
2. I realize (or believe, if you prefer) people are naturally evil. Read Hobbes, got the t-shirt, etc. I contend, however, that that innate human tendency toward selfishness can be overcome.

Jomama, I told you when you took the camp that your behavior disgusted me, and it still does. I said all I wish to say to you then.

maegi, Humerox, soup, thanks for your responses; you have given me the best possible reassurance that reason and decency is not lost on everyone, and your presence in the community has been the strongest motivation I've had to stick around since the incident happened.

Most importantly, I want to spell out something clearly, since I've been pretty subtle about it before, and that's why I had the mistaken hope that the server population would understand why they should be kind to each other. Yes, I'm new here; I don't expect to have the weight of someone who has been playing on this server since it came up, but I can still appeal to common sense, and this is the crux of why the incident got to me. I also don't want to sound too patronizing if I can help it; I'm sure that everybody here who cares about the server's sustainability already knows all this and has spent enough time thinking about it for it to have already sunk in--but if you claim to care about the server and still treat people badly, maybe it hasn't:

This server has 738 clients connected right now--9:54 PM Eastern time (US) on a Wednesday night. I don't think I would be out of line to say that at least five or ten of them are bots that the devs haven't caught up to yet, and that's assuming staff is doing a stand-up job of controlling that, but maybe it's being optimistic. If you're playing EQ on P1999, you have, let's say for sake of argument, 700 people available to play with you. That's people to group with, guild with, raid with, talk to, compete with, and otherwise populate the server so you're not playing EQ by yourself. I'd like to think we can all agree that playing EQ solo all the time is a horrifying prospect and boring as hell. Even if you solo to level or farm or whatever, having other people around is what makes the game what it is. So 700. That's all. And they're not all your level. Some of them are your class, some of them are classes you don't want in your group/raid/guild/whatever, some of them are noobs who you're afraid would get you killed, and yes, alas, some of them are total asshats who you want to ignore as best you can.

If one of them leaves because you were a dick to him, you have 699. If twenty of them leave because you and four friends made the game unenjoyable for them, you have 680. If a few small guilds leave because they're overwhelmed and denied access to content because your guild has a policy of being inconsiderate, you have 600 (I'm not alleging any of this; it's hypothetical). Do you see where I'm going here? If your policy is to serve yourself at the expense of courtesy or consideration to the other gamers on the server, they will leave, and eventually the only thing left will be people who are also self-serving and loot-centric. At that point the server is dead. EQ is a wonderful game and a fantastic experience even despite the presence of douchebags on any given server, but every person's tolerance for bullshit has a limit. Why would I want to play a game, even a great game like EQ, if the only people left to play it with are pricks who would jack a camp I've held for 12 hours if I die and it takes me 60 seconds to get back to it?

That's why I expected the community as a whole to be special: because I thought that everyone understood the consequences of being cruel to other people on a server with a small population, and the fact that there aren't many other people on the server to go around. You can't afford to run them off.

Bubbles: Rilen would have still given me clarity, because he's cool like that. Thought you should know.

Also, for karsten and Rhodes and their ilk: Haters gonna hate. Maybe this thread came off a little more rantish than I originally intended, but I know a troll when I see one.

What happened between the members of VD and Rilen was wrong. That's the long and short of it. It was legal (legal, at least if the camp meets the definition of a camp under the server rules, and since I haven't seen any staff interpretation on the definition or application to this particular area of the game world, I'm not prepared to take a position on that), but what happened was fundamentally unjust. That means something to me.

If it doesn't mean anything to you, or you think I'm taking it too personally, or you'd rather make snide jokes, flame, add insulting tags or responses to me or the other side, or any other excuse you have to not actually consider the principle of what I'm saying, then I'm willing to venture at this point that you're exactly the person who needs to take a step back and actually think about it, regardless of which side you think was in the right. The way we feel about the people we play games with (whether we think they're jerks or they're just obstacles in the way of our advancement) matters, and if you think a video game isn't an appropriate forum for issues of justice versus law or human nature, you're already behind.

Peace and safety.

Don't get discouraged. It's easier for people to make a lasting negative impression than a lasting good one. I can go buff 20 noobs and leave a lasting good impression with a couple of them, or go KS one person and leave a horribly sour taste in their mouth for a long time. Despite anything else I've said, I do believe the good people here vastly outnumber the more questionable ones.

If you're out leveling and need a SoW or crappy 9 pt DS, feel free to message me on my druid Yarghh and I'll hook you up =P (my other chars don't have much of use, lol)

[Odeseus]

Phrag, your intentions are well placed, but your logic is faulty. I think mainly because you simply care too much and have too high of standards for yourself. As Pico mention, step back from the game or else you're going to have a major meltdown sooner rather than later.

For one, you seem to be somewhat intelligent. So you must know that anonymity that the internet creates makes it MUCH MUCH MUCH more likely for a normally well-adjusted person to act like a total dick. I tend to view my character as a version of myself, and try to act like I would in RL (aka normal, repsectful, etc.). But you must know that this view is a minority in the world of video games. Many people here (and elsewhere) have no emotional connection to their characters. They buy and sell them, or use them as an outlet for things they wouldn't do in RL (ie, being mean).

Also, you have got to understand that not everyone follows your understanding of what is right. There is not, nor will there ever be, a complete and total consensus about what is right and wrong. Even if it is because some people will always be deranged enough to bend or break the rules of what is accepted and what isn't. And much of what you have a problem with is simply your opinion. And you cannot force your opinions on the rest of the people. You can try, but on the internet it simply won't work. You have to be smart enough to realize this.

Now for your actual post.

1. I've played EQ before--classic--a lot. Druid by the name of Demoree on Innoruuk had most of my time--ended up I think just inside of level 52 before I quit right after PoP was released. I'm new to the server, not the game.

How does this matter at all? Almost everyone here has played EQ in the past in some aspect. I personally played for 10 years. But let's be honest, how does this matter in the least? You know how to play the game.....so what?

but I can still appeal to common sense

Common sense is not common. You should know this by now. Don't rely on it because people will let you down.

I'm sure that everybody here who cares about the server's sustainability already knows all this and has spent enough time thinking about it for it to have already sunk in--but if you claim to care about the server and still treat people badly, maybe it hasn't

You put too much faith in people. The VAST majority of the population doesn't think about the relationship between the sustainability of the server and their actions. We are playing to have fun playing a game that we enjoy. That is about as far as it goes, to be honest. We simply do not make that connection that you want to make. Instead, most players have to goals: 1) have fun 2) get gear. That's as complex as it gets.

If one of them leaves because you were a dick to him, you have 699. If twenty of them leave because you and four friends made the game unenjoyable for them, you have 680. If a few small guilds leave because they're overwhelmed and denied access to content because your guild has a policy of being inconsiderate, you have 600 (I'm not alleging any of this; it's hypothetical). Do you see where I'm going here?

Slippery slope. What is the connection between acting like a dick and people quitting? Honestly, there is no stats or information to back this up. It is all your opinion yet again. The only way to get this stat is to have a survey about former p99 players to find out why they left. And it is my opinion that the difficulty of leveling and/or getting money/gear, and lack of content at 50 if you don't feel like poopsocking would be MUCH MUCH MUCH higher than "people were mean to me."

if the only people left to play it with are pricks who would jack a camp I've held for 12 hours if I die and it takes me 60 seconds to get back to it?

No where in your original telling of the story did you mention about where the chanter was bound. I try to bind near where I'm camping so I can go back to it if I die. Most people will let you go back to a camp, but there are many factors that go into this that you willfully ignore. Such as: desirability of the camp, difficulty of the camp, location of the camp, etc. Each of these changes for each camp. Such as camps in the Paw that I like to frequent. Often I can go back if I have to gate and/or die, simply because not many people are in the zone to notice I'm gone, nor are the camps super desirable. AC is about THE most desirable camp, it is easy to get to (at least in SRo), it is VERY easy (just boring) among other things. You simply can't demand everyone be super nice for these kind of camps, because it won't happen.

What happened between the members of VD and Rilen was wrong. That's the long and short of it. It was legal (legal, at least if the camp meets the definition of a camp under the server rules, and since I haven't seen any staff interpretation on the definition or application to this particular area of the game world, I'm not prepared to take a position on that), but what happened was fundamentally unjust. That means something to me.

It was wrong IN YOUR OPINION. How many times do I have to repeat that? Just because you see something is wrong, doesn't mean that it is. You are not the ultimate arbiter of what is wrong and what is right. Some people that democracy is evil as hell. Most Americans would think just the opposite. Some people like to eat rats, squirrels and bugs. I think that is disgusting but who the hell am I to make some grand judgment?

I have read everything that you have posted, and have responded to the best of my ability. Your move.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...a bunch of idealistic, utopian stuff...

I apologize... I didn't realize we were all playing "Phragmar's View of What Everquest Should Be Like".

Do not hold my guild or others accountable for your vision of the way things are supposed to be. Who are you to decide what is right and wrong? These things are spelled out objectively in the server ruleset precisely so people aren't held accountable to every Tom, Dick, and Harry's subjective view of right and wrong. The only reason you think something is a douchebag move is because you want to pick and choose which parts of the rule set you want to play by, and which parts you don't, and then paint some evil picture of whoever doesn't pick and choose in the same fashion.

No one's going to leave the server because they were "treated like a dick." They are going to leave the server because they didn't agree with the rule set, or were too oversensitive to handle the rule set being applied in a situation that was not in their favor (i.e. retaining a camp for X number of minutes after you die/wipe.)

Rilen died, for whatever reason, and lost the camp. At the time he was sent to his bind point by whatever killed him, the camp no longer belonged to him. I don't care which way you want to twist it... if you for one second suppose that the camp still belonged to him after he died, then you're saying camps can be reserved for an unspecified amount of time while the player is on CR. Which, if you played Live as you have claimed, you know is totally ridiculous.

Now you come here with your own made-up rules in your head that people should wait X number of minutes for someone to come back to a camp after they failed to keep it and died. Who are you to make up this rule? How am I supposed to know I am being held accountable for it? What is this magical number X number of minutes I must wait before the camp is no longer theirs? And when you see members of my guild not abide by this artificial ruleset, they're the douchebags? They're evil? They're loot-centric?

What about the person making up rules magically protecting someone's claim to a camp while they aren't even in the zone? Because they died. Which are completely different than the established rules set forth by the server admins so that there would be no question about this situation?

I know this is a carebear server, but what you're looking for is a server powered by rainbows and unicorn farts. Sorry the population of P1999 didn't live up to your divine standards. I hope you don't plan to do any raiding any time soon, because you're in for a rude awakening. No, if you wipe on Naggy, the guild breathing down your necks behind you is not going to give you as many attempts as you want until you give up and graciously let them take a turn. This was no different on Live, so it shouldn't be a shocker to you here.

Again, sorry we all disappointed you. I guess that's really all I have to say. And if you need a SoW in EC Tunnel while I'm standing there, I'll still give one to you if you'd like.