What is the hardest dungeon in the game?

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by mickmoranis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Simply put even if you took 6 people who raid NTOV to HS that have never once leveled with eachother and said, ok here is a dungeon you have 2 days to get through it and get all the loot.

I think they'd do better in SG then they would in HS

Idiots pulling 3 adds and wiping the group cus of HT's

That shit doesnt happen in SG, I have never seen someone accidientaly wipe a group in SG and I have in virtually every pug in HS

I disagree. I don't think TOV-geared people would die in HS short of legitimately training themselves. Why would a caster with 3500 hp be afraid of 3 mobs that HT for 500 and melee for 140? Yeah, it COULD kill ONE person... but only if the cleric doesn't know what stun command is or the chanter is AFK and you don't have anyone in your group who can root. It's not about whether you know the zone at that point; it's just a matter of playing your character at a decent level seeing as you ARE in a level 50+ zone.

On the other hand, no level of gear will protect a group who doesn't know what an icy servant is from death when they engage one of them and fight it right in their camp cause they don't know safe locations and are worried about adds... let alone if they aggro two, or pull 5 mobs on themselves who break FD cause they're all level 55 casters, etc. And that IS what is going to happen in SG for people who don't already know the zone thoroughly.

You can try to move the goalposts if you want with this "SG is a mini raid zone" whatnot... and no one would deny that it isn't a sane or balanced place compared to basically any other dungeon in the game... but it's a dungeon, and the hardest dungeon, imo, for the reasons given.


If you've really done a number of groups in SG and never had one wipe because of someone doing something wrong, then it was because the "normal" folk you were talking about earlier KNOW SG is ridiculous and stay the hell away from it, not because it is easier than HS.

[mickmoranis]

I just think you are conflating a mobs HP to a mobs difficulty.

By your logic, any mob that is unkillable than a mob that is killable, is technically harder.

Which is just the wrong way to look at everquest. Really, everquest isnt a game about difficulty, its a game about progress and gear.

however, HS is a zone about difficulty, no amount of gear will help you get through locked doors that your corpse is stuck behind, no amount of gear will help you avoid traps that make the entire group reset their crawl.

HS is just a more difficult zone than SG, however the mobs have higher HP and MR in SG... thats the only difference. Again if the mobs were all equal, kerra ise/hs > SG

[branamil]

Originally Posted by mickmoranis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have never seen someone accidientaly wipe a group in SG

That's cause no one does SG because it's too hard. I know you've never honestly grouped in there because aggro through floors and walls and water is notorious.

[mickmoranis]

Originally Posted by branamil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's cause no one does SG because it's too hard. I know you've never honestly grouped in there because aggro through floors and walls and water is notorious.

oh if thats the qualifier then MM is the hardest zone in the game.

[skarlorn]

lol mick how can you still be arguing this

HS is entirely soloable by a chanter, mostly soloable by a shaman(or necro), and all the content can be duo'd by a variety of classes

SG is harder than that.

i'll concede that the environment of HS is harder as you have to have a lot of knowledge to not let the dungeon itself kill you. but there's plenty of tricks to make it quite easy. Like, Die near a carpet. Then you can always get corpse from below... HS CRs aren't hard once you learn the place.

[mickmoranis]

thats not what constitutes difficulty in EQ though, by your logic any mob that is too high level to kill, is more difficult, thats just not hwo you can gague the difficulty of a zone IMO

I think if you look at it like, "would a group of players who are not twinked went into the zone with the intent of achviing loot and XP, they would have a harder time in HS than they would EVER in SG..

EVEN if you tried to just barely go deeper than the first 10% they could wind up with a night of literally just not knowing what to do, or how to get their corpses within 45 minuets.

[skarlorn]

the logic we should all be following is

"How hard is it to defeat the named mobs in the zone and acquire their pixels"

nothing else matters.

speaking as someone who led dozens of groups (untwinked) into HS to "achiiving loot and XP".

Your argument is presenting the problem "HS" and then creating a bunch of assumptions "no gear" "totally ignorant of a 18 year old game" in order to say "HS is the hardest zone in game. It only takes 1 or 2 skilled problem solvers to beat the puzzle of Charasis.

[Triiz]

Originally Posted by mickmoranis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I just think you are conflating a mobs HP to a mobs difficulty.


however, HS is a zone about difficulty, no amount of gear will help you get through locked doors that your corpse is stuck behind, no amount of gear will help you avoid traps that make the entire group reset their crawl.

SG mobs don't just have more hp. They hit harder, they hit faster since most are 70% hasted, they charm group members, they cast other enchanter spells, they CH, one has a dragon AOE. A 500 point one time use HT isn't that intimating compared to mobs that do 500 dmg a round, then immediately repeat that a few seconds later.

No amount of gear helps avoid traps? A magical thing called a lev cloak will, and even without lev if people use some common sense (don't step on rugs) or look at a map with the traps clearly marked.

If 6 NTOV geared people couldn't handle HS they should try to sell their accounts back to whoever they bought them from. You're obviously unable to be convinced otherwise, though.

[mickmoranis]

Originally Posted by skarlorn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the logic we should all be following is

"How hard is it to defeat the named mobs in the zone and acquire their pixels"

nothing else matters.

speaking as someone who led dozens of groups (untwinked) into HS to "achiiving loot and XP".

Your argument is presenting the problem "HS" and then creating a bunch of assumptions "no gear" "totally ignorant of a 18 year old game" in order to say "HS is the hardest zone in game. It only takes 1 or 2 skilled problem solvers to beat the puzzle of Charasis.

you cant gague anything with that standard though, nothing. ONlyl if the mob cons red to you or not.

Look at tranix, hes substantially more difficult than a giant of his same level, or skarlon for that matter.

Is gore harder than some velious dragons? Yes, why? are some VP dragons harder than some velious dragons? Yes, why?

If you are going to try to judge an entire zone, you cant just say "permafrost is the hardest dungeon becuse its harder than runneye"

I mean dude, you have an open mind, you love the WHOLE thing that is everquest, and you cant see this? Thats whats really shocking to me.

The correct answer to the question, what is the hardest zone?

By your standards?

NTOV period no contest.

[Tecmos Deception]

HS does have hard mechanics. But knowledge can counter those. SG has hard mechanics that knowledge cannot counter. You're just confusing the issue if you can't realize what "hard" is supposed to mean in the context of the subject and first post.

It takes 0-1 wipes in HS for a competent group to realize they they probably should have a contingency plan in event of a wipe. Then the thing that you've been carrying on about for pages is nearly a non-issue. And even that first CR isn't that bad unless your group was like, 6 warriors or some shit so that you can't pick locks or invis or summon corpses or kill (albeit more slowly) without gear, etc.

But since SG is difficult to crawl through/farm/etc (you know, hard), even if you know how to move through the zone or do a CR or whatever, it is harder.

As for bringing ntov into this? I hope you're just trolling and not actually afflicted with a mental impairment.