Class XP Penalties

[Scrubosaur]

Hybrid penalty was probably one of the best concepts around when EQ started. The fact that in order to be effective end game you needed a TANK - aka warrior, a HEALER - aka cleric, and DPS - aka rogue, it helped steer people in the right direction when creating a character at EQs beginning. I love the idea that if you wanted to play a character that has a mix of skills then you had to pay the exp penalty price. I am sure it all relates back to DnD dual classes, where your exp is split between each class (or something like that). Of course by the time Velious came out there was probably already a good chunk war/clr/rog playing the game to warrant easing up on the hybrid penalty.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Originally Posted by Scrubosaur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hybrid penalty was probably one of the best concepts around when EQ started. The fact that in order to be effective end game you needed a TANK - aka warrior, a HEALER - aka cleric, and DPS - aka rogue, it helped steer people in the right direction when creating a character at EQs beginning. I love the idea that if you wanted to play a character that has a mix of skills then you had to pay the exp penalty price. I am sure it all relates back to DnD dual classes, where your exp is split between each class (or something like that). Of course by the time Velious came out there was probably already a good chunk war/clr/rog playing the game to warrant easing up on the hybrid penalty.

You know, I never even thought to relate it back to D&D. That is eye opening to say the least.

I do still feel the server is established far beyond any need for hybrid penalty even with the great points you made towards steering towards the core classes in the beginning.

Thanks for that information though, never even thought of it that way and now I do =)

[fadetree]

Originally Posted by Rattle Squirrell [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You know, I never even thought to relate it back to D&D. That is eye opening to say the least.

I do still feel the server is established far beyond any need for hybrid penalty even with the great points you made towards steering towards the core classes in the beginning.

Thanks for that information though, never even thought of it that way and now I do =)

Yep, its definitely related to D&D. The mechanism itself isn't really a bad idea, but it didn't get translated right. In D&D, you really did have a huge advantage as a hybrid. In EQ, not so much. I actually think some amount of penalty is the right way to go for EQ hybrids, but 40% is ridiculous. 5% would be a better match with the actual in game advantages.

And in all cases, it shouldn't be applied to the group, but to the players exp after distribution. The idea that we form long term groups and are desperate to stay even with our groupmates just didn't work out to be true. This is the real invitation killer, if the exp reduction was perceived to be just applied to us, we wouldn't be so shunned. Even though, its been pointed out many times that the group exp is not hurt nearly as much as people think, but yeah anyways.

[sox7d]

Sidenote: it's rather bullshit in DnD as it is. My 5 druid/5 fighter is severely underleveled compared to the uninhibited 7-different-prestige-class-dips-from-every-supplement power gamers in my group.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by sox7d [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Sidenote: it's rather bullshit in DnD as it is. My 5 druid/5 fighter is severely underleveled compared to the uninhibited 7-different-prestige-class-dips-from-every-supplement power gamers in my group.

Everquest was (loosely) based on Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, ie. v1.0 of the rules. You're referring to v3.0/3.5, where multi-classing works very differently.

The main difference is that a 6th level fighter/wizard in AD&D had most of the advantages of both a 6th level fighter and a 6th level wizard, whereas in 3rd edition that same fighter/wizard would have the powers of a 3rd level fighter and a 3rd level wizard. As you note, it's much better to just be a 6th level wizard in that edition. In AD&D though multi-classing (which didn't allow for druid/fighters BTW) was incredibly powerful, so they needed an experience handicap to balance it.

The Mystic Theurge prestige class in 3.5 is kind of close to a AD&D wizard/cleric, if that helps.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Originally Posted by fadetree [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yep, its definitely related to D&D. The mechanism itself isn't really a bad idea, but it didn't get translated right. In D&D, you really did have a huge advantage as a hybrid. In EQ, not so much. I actually think some amount of penalty is the right way to go for EQ hybrids, but 40% is ridiculous. 5% would be a better match with the actual in game advantages.

And in all cases, it shouldn't be applied to the group, but to the players exp after distribution. The idea that we form long term groups and are desperate to stay even with our groupmates just didn't work out to be true. This is the real invitation killer, if the exp reduction was perceived to be just applied to us, we wouldn't be so shunned. Even though, its been pointed out many times that the group exp is not hurt nearly as much as people think, but yeah anyways.

jeez, that was exactly what I was explaining to my girlfriend about the hybrids. The penalty almost seems like it seriously outweighs even the fun factor.

[sox7d]

Originally Posted by Rattle Squirrell [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

jeez, that was exactly what I was explaining to my girlfriend about the hybrids. The penalty almost seems like it seriously outweighs even the fun factor.

This game isn't about fun. No one finds pressing "Q" and looking at numbers inherently fun. The fun is in the constant stream of accomplishment.


Leveling a ranger with an experience penalty is just that much more of an accomplishment. That's why I'm not complaining.

60 ranger in EQ > 60 anything in EQ > 60 in vanilla WoW > 60 in WoW currently

It's all arbitrary.

[kaev]

Originally Posted by fadetree [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yep, its definitely related to D&D. The mechanism itself isn't really a bad idea, but it didn't get translated right. In D&D, you really did have a huge advantage as a hybrid. In EQ, not so much. I actually think some amount of penalty is the right way to go for EQ hybrids, but 40% is ridiculous. 5% would be a better match with the actual in game advantages.

And in all cases, it shouldn't be applied to the group, but to the players exp after distribution. The idea that we form long term groups and are desperate to stay even with our groupmates just didn't work out to be true. This is the real invitation killer, if the exp reduction was perceived to be just applied to us, we wouldn't be so shunned. Even though, its been pointed out many times that the group exp is not hurt nearly as much as people think, but yeah anyways.

The problem is the XP penalty is just stupid, it doesn't matter even slightly once you've hit 60 (50 originally.) All it does is delay your trip to max level, once you're there it is nothing. If your class/race is superior to a class/race competing for the same role, the delay doesn't matter at all in the end, if your class/race is not superior to competing class(es) then WTF is the penalty for? It is simply stupid shitty design, there is no other way to describe it.

Likewise, btw, the lack of a decent intrinsic warrior agro mechanism (lolTaunt), which was the root of so much Warrior angst later in the timeline. They fixed Rogue agro before Kunark, (wonder if can still find the newsgroup threads on how awful it was to be a Rogue before Evade went in.) But Warriors were left hanging with nothing but Raid MT as a clear class role for quite a few expansions.

Contrary to the endlessly repeated claims of certain spamposters here, the strengths of EQ were in spite of the stupid shit, not because of it. But go ahead and cling to your beliefs, I'm sure they're quite comforting on those long lonely nights.

[Daywolf]

Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem is the XP penalty is just stupid, it doesn't matter even slightly once you've hit 60 (50 originally.) All it does is delay your trip to max level, once you're there it is nothing. If your class/race is superior to a class/race competing for the same role, the delay doesn't matter at all in the end, if your class/race is not superior to competing class(es) then WTF is the penalty for? It is simply stupid shitty design, there is no other way to describe it.

Yeah but the result is that there are far less players taking a hybrid to cap, or even rolling them coincidentally. Agreed it doesn't matter once at cap, but it matters enough to decimate hybrid populations to even reach cap. I don't think a big component to that is simply the class xp hit, but being that it impacts group xp which does the damage. Knowing this, the classes become decimated as they are, few roll them.

And the only way to really offset this problem, is not to "learn to play" (as someone spewed out irrationally) but to completely twink the hybrid so they can play in higher level groups (5+ levels). But even then, pugs are not usually doing gear checks, and even considered a bit stupid to do so. Then if that 5+ group is also twinked, then the hybrid twink still falls short. A dilemma, is it worth twinking a hybrid that much? How many hybrid characters were simply PL'ed up rather than spending huge amounts of plats on gear? Presents problems, and the results are well documented.

[Rattle Squirrell]

Agreed