Why I don't like to group

[Messianic]

Originally Posted by Overcast [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And you getting to 50 first because...


..... [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No hate, just sayin'..

I don't understand =)

[Rasterburn]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm aware of all this. The point was that until 51, quad kiting is nowhere near Necro/mage solo speeds. Even with Clarity and sow, quad kiting before 51 is slower than a necro/mage, particularly slower than a necro.

I disagree, although I will admit that my mid-level quads were mostly in Luclin zones. Although prior to Luclin, there were some quad kiting opportunities for wizards in Great Divide (giants) and I did quad there from time to time. Also possible to quad in Eastern Wastes in the mid levels. It all depended upon how much competition there was for the pulls.

For instance, one of my wizzy alts liked to quad zelniaks and shrooms in Dawnshroud Peaks (Luclin). Very easy pulls and great XP for the 30-40 levels. After level 40, I'd move over to the Tenebrous Mountains on Luclin and quad the sonic wolves there. Lots of mobs and lots of XP per hour. Also nearly no competition, since that zone is rather remote if you can't port to it (and wizards can).

Those zones would get you from 30 to 51... and then it was time to head off to the Cobalt Scar gravy train. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Overcast]

Originally Posted by Messianic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't understand =)

Well, didn't mean first - I meant. What's the big rush to '50', why so much major concern over XP?

It just seems to be like rushing to a brick wall at a dead end. Once Kunark's out, cool, but...

I guess each person likes to play different. But I see lots of complaining about XP and soon it will be even more 'when it Kunark coming out' complaining.

Is what I was saying - nothing personal at all towards anyone, hehe

[gintu01]

I love how 9 pages of bullshit is listed as solo vs group when it's really Mage vs group. Not everyone wants to play a mage, or a druid or necro for that matter. Mages are easy to solo with, and comparing their xp with group xp is just rediculous.

Plus in what zone 30+ can you EVER kill 5 mobs every 6 minutes consistantly...everything is camped to shit.

[Rasterburn]

Overcast... I think it's also a matter of mana efficiency.

Let's say I'm a wizard. I have a limited mana pool. I can expend that mana in a group, nuking a single mob that the group pulled, and then sit on my ass and med during the next pull. Essentially useless to the group.

Or... I can go off on my own and expend that same amount of mana (more or less) on killing four mobs at once, all by myself. And I'll still spend the same time sitting on my butt medding up as I would in the group.

So on the one hand, I get a major XP hit for nuking in a group. And on the other hand, I get about eight times the XP by quad kiting (as opposed to group XP). All for the exact same mana and downtime costs.

See what I mean..? It's just more sensible for a wizzy to quad, if you're trying to level up and get some money. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Overcast]

I was just rambling pre-coffee mostly. lol

But yeah.. I know XP does seem better solo. Regardless of mechanics, it just does.

I thought I recalled - from live, the same issue coming up and some changes being done to group XP to 'promote more grouping'. I might be wrong though, it could have been much later in the game on Live.

But on the Wizard, I played one for a while. I found it was best to just toss a nuke or two in a group, increasing DPS just a bit each mob, keeping 75+ mana, then if things got 'dicey' I could pick a target and pretty much destroy it.

I've been going back and forth between the Shaman and SK. In both cases the groups I was in the - XP was decent enough in a group to warrant not soloing, but it does require a good group and an area with enough mobs to make a group worth it..

Won't debate the XP group vs. solo thing, because for many classes (not all) solo will always be better XP. I'd even dropped groups in PoP and further with the Necro, because often I could solo what the group was killing - if I had room.

[Harmonicdeth]

Originally Posted by Noselacri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, the thing is that if you're no longer hugely amused by the various dungeons, soloing can be a much more pleasant experience. I get the impression that the soloers are mainly people who enjoy classic but haven't been waiting 8 years for it; i.e they're the ones who have been drifting from classic server to classic server on emu, or they're the ones who haven't been missing it so much they could cry but still find it mildly entertaining. They're also often people who still play Live, or have up until recently. In groups, I see mostly people who a) haven't played for 8 years or b) just want to experience the old days for sheer nostalgia. They aren't the ones who long for high-end raiding, or the ones who have been playing the game on and off all along. For that reason, joining a group often means playing with people who aren't hardcore gamers or haven't been for a decade. Seems that the min-maxing experts who know everything and can play their classes to perfection are either out there soloing, or are playing with their RL friends and pay little attention to those around them. Basically, joining a group almost always means playing with at least a couple of bad players.

That's no problem in and of itself. All games have bad players, and it was no different back in the day. However, what's different is the fact that most soloable classes can get similar or sometimes much better exp from soloing, without having to deal with people who consistently cause wipes or play their classes poorly. They rely only on themselves, and if they know what they're doing, it's simply much less of a hassle than grouping in a dungeon. If you don't specifically miss the grouping aspect, and if you aren't overly interested in meeting more internet strangers - after all, we gamers have met thousands upon thousands, and it sort of loses its appeal - well, then grouping isn't all that attractive. Add to that the fact that soloing tends to be a good deal more safe, offers many more options, can be much more profitable than regular exp grouping, and allows you to do whatever you please and go AFK for 15 minutes when you feel like it.

And that's the thing, really. The benefits of soloing are supposed to come at the price of less but safer exp and a lack of interaction. However, the guy who played back in anno 1999 when he was 18 and had a blast joking around with strangers and staying up until 2AM and so on, he's now a grown man with a wife and a crying kid in the next room. He doesn't care as much about bullshitting with other youngsters, and he doesn't need to play in an environment where having to leave the computer for 20 minutes is a problem. And unlike the EQ he remembered, this version actually rewards him much more for refraining to group. Suddenly soloing isn't something to do when there are no groups available, or the only way for classes that aren't highly desirable in groups. It's the best way to level up and by far the most convenient way to play for him. And since many, if not most players, are now more like him than the energetic teenagers they were when they started playing ten or eleven years ago, it's no wonder more and more players prefer the spectre island over Lower Guk.

Other than that, there has been a simple change of mentality in gaming over the years. Back then, Everquest was a modern game and we didn't really question it. Now, after most of us have played WoW or EQ2 or whatever, and after MMORPG gaming as a whole has shifted to an entirely different atmosphere, EQ turns out to be a brutally punishing and unforgiving game. Dying while camping bouncers in Oggok means a loss of exp and a 10 second corpse run. Dying at the bottom of SolB means a loss of exp, a corpse run of potentially hours, and quite likely a further loss of exp as you die once or twice trying to recover. These are things we put up with back in the day, both because grouping was the more effectively way to level and because that's how games were. Now, neither of those two are the case. What seemed like a fact of life back in the day, the hour-long CR or the hours of going from dungeon to dungeon trying to find a group, those aren't really acceptable in today's gaming industry. It's no longer an accepted element of the game, it's a thing that constantly pisses you off. And when the exp then isn't even better, it's sort of hard to justify grouping. You'd have to just love grouping for the sake of grouping, despite the disadvantages that it tends to come with. Virtually all of EQ1's gear is tradeable, anyway.

Until grouping becomes substantially better exp than soloing, we'll see hordes of people playing necros, mages and druids, and we'll see ridiculous amounts of soloing. We can't change the fact that most of the players have grown older and live lives that make soloing more convenient than grouping, but if they want to solo, it should be for that reason; not because it's twice as fast as Guk.

QFT ^^ Truth in many circumstances....

[Aetherial]

Originally Posted by Reiker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Really, once you consider the ENTIRE picture (hybrid penalties are a huge variable and can negatively effect your exp of course, but not all classes have a penalty and mages/necros do) it comes out to be more like 2-3 mobs a minute which is completely doable.

Not going to get too deep into this but in all the years I played EQ, In the best groups I ever remember being in, I do not recall consistently pulling 2-3 MOBS a minute... that's a mob every 20-30 seconds.

On the other hand, even as the best soloer uber necro/mage in the world I can't see doing that pace either.

Sooner or later, the MOBs in the pullable area run out. Also, solo or group sooner or later you will have to med/heal/buff (I guess an unbuffed mage pet or necro pet doing all the killing would eliminate this).

I guess what I am saying is that there is some exageration going on about kill rates on this thread I think.

.... or I just suck; also a possibility.

[Rasterburn]

Originally Posted by Aetherial [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess what I am saying is that there is so exageration going on about kill rates on this thread I think.

.... or I just suck; also a possibility.

Well... my old main was a DE necro and yes, there is a certain amount of exaggeration happening here. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What I said about quad-kiting for wizzies was accurate, though.

Regarding necro pets... they aren't usually "un-buffed." We have our own pet buff spells (AC and haste buff), along with at least three different ways to heal the pet during combat.

[Aetherial]

Originally Posted by Noselacri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, the thing is that if you're no longer hugely amused by the various dungeons, soloing can be a much more pleasant experience. I get the impression that the soloers are mainly people who enjoy classic but haven't been waiting 8 years for it; i.e they're the ones who have been drifting from classic server to classic server on emu, or they're the ones who haven't been missing it so much they could cry but still find it mildly entertaining. They're also often people who still play Live, or have up until recently. In groups, I see mostly people who a) haven't played for 8 years or b) just want to experience the old days for sheer nostalgia. They aren't the ones who long for high-end raiding, or the ones who have been playing the game on and off all along. For that reason, joining a group often means playing with people who aren't hardcore gamers or haven't been for a decade. Seems that the min-maxing experts who know everything and can play their classes to perfection are either out there soloing, or are playing with their RL friends and pay little attention to those around them. Basically, joining a group almost always means playing with at least a couple of bad players.

That's no problem in and of itself. All games have bad players, and it was no different back in the day. However, what's different is the fact that most soloable classes can get similar or sometimes much better exp from soloing, without having to deal with people who consistently cause wipes or play their classes poorly. They rely only on themselves, and if they know what they're doing, it's simply much less of a hassle than grouping in a dungeon. If you don't specifically miss the grouping aspect, and if you aren't overly interested in meeting more internet strangers - after all, we gamers have met thousands upon thousands, and it sort of loses its appeal - well, then grouping isn't all that attractive. Add to that the fact that soloing tends to be a good deal more safe, offers many more options, can be much more profitable than regular exp grouping, and allows you to do whatever you please and go AFK for 15 minutes when you feel like it.

And that's the thing, really. The benefits of soloing are supposed to come at the price of less but safer exp and a lack of interaction. However, the guy who played back in anno 1999 when he was 18 and had a blast joking around with strangers and staying up until 2AM and so on, he's now a grown man with a wife and a crying kid in the next room. He doesn't care as much about bullshitting with other youngsters, and he doesn't need to play in an environment where having to leave the computer for 20 minutes is a problem. And unlike the EQ he remembered, this version actually rewards him much more for refraining to group. Suddenly soloing isn't something to do when there are no groups available, or the only way for classes that aren't highly desirable in groups. It's the best way to level up and by far the most convenient way to play for him. And since many, if not most players, are now more like him than the energetic teenagers they were when they started playing ten or eleven years ago, it's no wonder more and more players prefer the spectre island over Lower Guk.

Other than that, there has been a simple change of mentality in gaming over the years. Back then, Everquest was a modern game and we didn't really question it. Now, after most of us have played WoW or EQ2 or whatever, and after MMORPG gaming as a whole has shifted to an entirely different atmosphere, EQ turns out to be a brutally punishing and unforgiving game. Dying while camping bouncers in Oggok means a loss of exp and a 10 second corpse run. Dying at the bottom of SolB means a loss of exp, a corpse run of potentially hours, and quite likely a further loss of exp as you die once or twice trying to recover. These are things we put up with back in the day, both because grouping was the more effectively way to level and because that's how games were. Now, neither of those two are the case. What seemed like a fact of life back in the day, the hour-long CR or the hours of going from dungeon to dungeon trying to find a group, those aren't really acceptable in today's gaming industry. It's no longer an accepted element of the game, it's a thing that constantly pisses you off. And when the exp then isn't even better, it's sort of hard to justify grouping. You'd have to just love grouping for the sake of grouping, despite the disadvantages that it tends to come with. Virtually all of EQ1's gear is tradeable, anyway.

Until grouping becomes substantially better exp than soloing, we'll see hordes of people playing necros, mages and druids, and we'll see ridiculous amounts of soloing. We can't change the fact that most of the players have grown older and live lives that make soloing more convenient than grouping, but if they want to solo, it should be for that reason; not because it's twice as fast as Guk.

That has got to be one of the top 10 posts I have ever read on any message board on any subject. You are bang on, on every point.

I wasn't a teenager in 1999 (I was 35) but now that I am married with a young child, there are definitely realities of what I can afford to invest in the game and whether or not I have room in my life for an excruciating CR [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It would be great to group once in a while, that is why I chose an enchanter, but it will only be for the brief comraderie and variety of experience... and maybe one day to get to some difficult places I probably can't get to solo.