AC issues are starting to be really problematic.

[pasi]

Big difference, yes.

We're talking about 'useless' versus 'useful' here, I'm asking what the perceived figure is on 600ish AC mobs.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Two slots for Avatar?

Primal Avatar + Avatar, obviously. Everyone and their brother plays shaman on this server anyway. So worst case all of your rogues have Avatar.

Originally Posted by Treats

Primal's should be a requirement to North Temple of Veeshan, if it is not something is wrong.

Just crazy imo. I mean how much do you expect Avatar to increase damage for PCs that are already strength capped? 20%? 30%? 50%?

edit: just to be clear, I don't think PCs are doing too little damage. Sure there is always some rogue clown in VP who does 125-150 dps, but those are the guys that a) had avatar b) hit disc and c) got lucky with backstab. The last two are obviously not sustainable for a 5 minute fight. I guess that without avatar/disc a rogue would average 85ish in VP, maybe even less.

[pasi]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Primal Avatar + Avatar, obviously. Everyone and their brother plays shaman on this server anyway. So worst case all of your rogues have Avatar.

I don't remember them stacking and can't seem to find anything supporting them stacking.

AFAIK: The purpose of primal avatar was to remove the emerald cost. If you got primal weapons, casted avatar/primal avatar don't serve much of a purpose on PCs until you start pushing beyond 150 worn attack - I don't believe that is possible until Luclin (casted avatar doesn't count toward the atk cap, procced avatar does).

[Splorf22]

I just mean each shaman can avatar two melee, reducing the need for primal weapons

[Treats]

Avatar is not a huge increase for one person in a raid setting.

The increase comes from most of the melee in your raid force having it.

Do whatever I guess, I don't play here anymore anyway.

Look at Tigole's parse on the TF in Plane of Growth.

Going from VP to NToV is a fucking joke.

[pasi]

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Avatar is not a huge increase for one person in a raid setting.

The increase comes from most of the melee in your raid force having it.

Do whatever I guess, I don't play here anymore anyway.

Look at Tigole's parse on the TF in Plane of Growth.

Going from VP to NToV is a fucking joke.

I'm just trying to make the point that even if 100 ATK is a 50% increase in damage on higher AC mobs (which is an unreasonably high number that I'm using for the sake of argument), you could just bring 3 non-avatared rogues to make up for 2 avatared rogues.

No doubt on the net effect of multiple primals to overall DPS. This just isn't an era where there are number caps and/or enrage timers.

[Splorf22]

Where did you find the log, Treats? I'd be curious to take a look.

edit: http://www.legacyofsteel.net/Archives/Post/2001-06-16 hehehe

[Fysts]

Don't warriors have a 5 percent mitigation bonus over other plate classes. I am pretty sure this was one of their class bonuses. I remember on live you would strive for around 1300 ac on a warrior then you would go full hps. I also remember on live without defensive monks in velious gear out tanked every class, including warriors. This was because mobs missed more when attacking them, seems it wasn't just how hard mobs hit on live, but the fact they landed more of their swings compared to in kunark era.

[pasi]

The 5% was a damage interval only mitigation added when they bumped defensive down to 45% (2003). The net effect being a buff to non-discipline tanking while keeping discipline tanking the same.

The monk mitigation thing was always pretty overblown. Top of the line geared monks might have taken less overall DPS than top of the line warriors, but the conclusion that this made them better tanks ignores the reasons why warriors have always had a monopoly on tanking. Namely, HP returns and Defensive. It was mostly warriors bitching about monks soloing. Warriors complaining while being the most powerful class in the game - nothing out of the ordinary.

HP is the most important tanking statistic in the era of CHeal.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Excuse me for getting annoyed that you guys seem to think that these values are well known or something and that it's our code that's broken.

Your position is a difficult one, but it's only natural that people are going to wonder if your code is broken when you can go in-game, take off most of your armor, and not get hit for visibly more damage per minute than you do with full AC gear on. Which, incidentally, I did last night against a variety of monsters ranging from high 50's cliff golems to mid dark-blues to light blue trash. Regardless of the cause, something seems very wrong with respect to the end-result of armor function (or rather, lack therof) in game.

I know you can't perfectly replicate classic in this case due to the necessary information simply not existing. That's fine. Most of us players probably don't care overmuch about the workings behind the scenes. We just want to be able to put on armor and feel like it has some noticeable effect. You want your systems to be tuned as ideally as possible, too, so we all have the same goal here.

You said useful feedback would boil down to "Soandso mob should be hitting harder or softer, spiking more or less, etc." That feedback turns into the "fix your AC" comments because in effect the problem is with the great majority of the many hundreds of monsters in the game, from low levels through cap. Simply put, there are precious few areas where armor seems to have a beneficial effect for a level-appropriate tank. I mean, I could go to the bugs forum and start listing almost every last monster in the entire game as hitting for nearly the same damage regardless of target AC....but that wouldn't really be too useful, would it? It's more efficient simply to discuss it under the "AC is whack" subject since it's so widespread.

For the sake of testing, is there a zone or monster--particularly one already in-game (old world/kunark)--where you feel monsters are tuned correctly against high-level tanks, and where going from say 950 to 1100 displayed AC will have a noticeable and significant effect? Knowing such would be immensely useful as a "control" to compare against other zones in testing.

Danth