Most Valuable Class

[Lazie]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't mean to dismiss bards. They're very useful and a great class. In the absence of an enchanter, they would be the best class for many different camps.

But if we're talking about a vacuum where you can have whatever class you want and whatever group set-up you want, bards are usually not going to be a part of an optimal group. Enchanters are going to be more valuable in almost all settings.

Depends who is playing the bard and who is playing the enchanter. It is always the player behind the keyboard.

[cs616]

I agree it is hard to argue for a bard over a chanter, but bards are definitely way more than Selos / resists. In fact, in most exp groups bards will rarely use either of those songs. Most groups bards are either going to be pulling, CC, buffing, or some combination of those three. In terms of buffing, you're going to be using haste, atk, regen (mana & HP), and dmg shield songs way more than resists or selos in a group setting (different on raids).

I'd personally think a good bard is more valuable than a good enchanter simply because the difference between a decent enchanter and a great enchanter isn't as big as the difference between a decent bard and a good bard. Group settings just aren't where enchanters really shine imo, they're more impressive solo or in small groups (duos/trios). Trios are about the smallest group where bards really start to show their effectiveness and they really shine in full groups that are melee dps heavy.

For practical use though, really enchanter is probably the answer. Good bards are just too few and far between. I can honestly only think of 1 or 2 bards on the server aside from myself I know are good in groups - I'm sure there are others that I haven't grouped with, but either way they're no where near as abundant as mediocre enchanters who will bring way more to a group than a mediocre bard. Also, the bard epic is so game changing that it really needs to be factored in too. I think it is almost impossible to argue that a pre-epic bard can bring more to a group than an enchanter.

[Tenlaar]

You keep saying enchanters can tank, but that's only true for a group with zero melee DPS in it. And that's just no good. A bard can be tank, puller, and CC in a group with 3-4 melee DPS, which is going to kill way faster than any caster only group.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by Tenlaar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You keep saying enchanters can tank, but that's only true for a group with zero melee DPS in it. And that's just no good. A bard can be tank, puller, and CC in a group with 3-4 melee DPS, which is going to kill way faster than any caster only group.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=73876

Sadly postimage deleted my screenshots, but the short version is that we aggroed the guy that roams above the dropdown to hs west. This was before the assist aggro changes turned HS into a zone for pussies, so we got about 15. And we killed them all.

Enc/Enc/Clr is basically equivalent to a full group of melee, and I say this as someone with a monk and warrior.

[Destron]

I said that bards can CC just as well as chanters for 95% of camps. And I'll stand by that, it sounds like you haven't grouped with a good bard.

Yeah bard charm breaks, so does chanter, the thing is you can time it pretty well and know when it's going to break. So, for a bard playing at maximum ability the charm is very controllable.

People are not reading the original question very well.

[Tenlaar]

Yeah, and five enchanters and a cleric is awesome too. But the OP was obviously asking about normal grouping situations. Not pre-planned groups, not gimick groups, not "let's do everything to take advantage of a semi-broken mechanic" groups. Just plain old groups.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Tenlaar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, and five enchanters and a cleric is awesome too. But the OP was obviously asking about normal grouping situations. Not pre-planned groups, not gimick groups, not "let's do everything to take advantage of a semi-broken mechanic" groups. Just plain old groups.

What makes a group "normal" or not?

For the most part, a bard is going to need a tank, a healer, and at least one DPS class to be a part of an effective group. That means you're dedicating four group slots to making a bard a meaningful part of your group. If you can't find a tank, or a healer, or a DPS, your group is going to underperform badly, bard or no bard.

Enchanters eliminate that requirement. With an enchanter, your group doesn't need a tank. The charm can tank. It doesn't need DPS. The charm is elite DPS. It barely needs a healer. You can fill and go.

And if we're talking about an optimal group, you really just want to stack enchanters. Put a bunch of enchanters with a cleric, and you're basically raid-ready.

[Rec]

mvp or in this case mvc is about your impact. You can take the best EQ player in the world let him play a warrior and he will never have the impact that he could have had if he played an enchanter.

[Confit]

I've had all sorts of experiences with people that turned a good group into a great group.

My best friend on P99, a Druid named Kaeleth, is literally the best puller I've ever had in a group. He made my job as an Enchanter super easy. He always had a steady stream of snared mobs coming into camp and would CC for me when I had to do things like re-buff or re-charm. I think Druids are very underrated in a group situation but they have a lot to bring to the table especially by someone who plays the class well.

And of course, me being totally biased, a great Enchanter can set the pace very well for a group. You don't need the perfect group set up when there's a well played Enchanter on your side. I always had a lot of fun in a trio of myself as an Ench and my two friends playing Druid and Monk. Keeping everything rooted and slowed turned the Monk into a great tank and the Druid into a great healer. Add in the DPS of a charmed pet and we would plow through mobs.

[koros]

Enchanter/Bard/Druid/Ranger/Necro

In the hands of a capable player can keep mobs nonstop in camp and being killed. Add to that tanking(ranger), ccing (all), charming (enc/bard/druid), or healing (druid/nec). If you're slowing anything ever, you're xping wrong.