Unbrella

[Thulack]

Originally Posted by Prismaticshop [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

OP obviously got their jimmies rustled by Brella

GG brella

Just wanted people to know where their actual place was not where they think they belong.

[Splorf22]

Originally Posted by MaksimMazor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sorry I didn't think the non raiders were included among dragon killing discussion

Seems people having fun in zones that don't involve raid targets is somehow offensive to Unbrella, although I'm not sure how.

[Visual]

Much like life, eq was designed to reward the people who sacrifice the most. The fact that people have to give up so much to attain these particular items gave them their intrinsic value.

I think it's a bad call to step in and pervert the authentic feel of the game that they worked so hard to foster, but what do I know.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Visual [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The fact that people have to give up so much to attain these particular items gave them their intrinsic value.

This is a sad statement for everyone that plays video games to read. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Bones]

Originally Posted by doraf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

get free loot out of it.

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[baalzy]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point I am making is that not every lowbie and player on this server will participate in the raid scene. I do not have those numbers, obviously, but philosophically, the point stands. You have people who are chronic altaholics who will never raid, you have the neckbeards, and everything in between. However, we are talking about the endgame. Those who do not meaningfully participate currently, are not likely to participate, and those who are unable to participate all should have varying weights assigned to their voice.

The opposite is also true. Should an issue arrise that only affects casuals as opposed to raiders, their voice should carry more weight as to that issue. Please keep in mind that this is my opinion, and I understand that there is an alternative and popular view. It's essentially legal realism versus legal positivism which boils down to "is every voice equal no matter what, or should some groups, by virtue of their situation, be given more weight?"

To frame the issue: In treaty negotiations on the law of the sea should, say South Sudan, wield as much diplomatic influence as England, Japan, or any other country with a much larger interest in the waterways? Most governments have accepted the realism angle that a group's voice should not be severed from its situation. I'm not saying that we should just ignore the majority of the server in favor of TMO, FE, and IB. I'm simply making the point that situation, stake, and standing are valid considerations when weighing an actor's voice.

How do you propose we weight things? If you want to look at it from just the raid ready tier2 guilds we're still talking over about a 2.2:1 ratio of Tier2 to Tier1 and if you extrapolate Rogeans queries about TMOs population % I think it's pretty reasonable that the numbers I posted earlier are accurate enough.

Thats where it starts to get sticky. Do the tier1s truly "raid" or "play" more than the tier2s or is it really just a matter of the tier1s having more flexibility in their schedules? I'd rate myself as a casual, I have a full time job, a wife, and a second part-time business. I play 2-4 hours a night M-W and probably about 5 hours a day Fri-Sun. That gives me 21-27 hours a week of play time. Thats a part-time job pretty easily.

Here's the rub though, I don't have that much control over when those 21-27 hours are played due to having a life outside this game. I think it's pretty evident to anyone that 21 hours is more than enough time to run to and kill every raid mob and participate in full clears of every plane at least once a week.

However, If I'm to have any chance at experiencing any of the content there needs to be some level of control over when that content is available. Scream and shout about 'classic' all you want (this comment isn't specifically directed at you Xasten), but when you're at a point where a minority of the raid capable population makes it impossible or nearly impossible for a group of people more than twice-their size to experience content there's a huge imbalance there.

When the only concessions coming out of the hardcore crowd is ~20-25% of the mobs outside of their own special elite playground (and only if the total pot is nearly doubled) and any attempts to negotiate something a little more equitable are shouted down as tyrannical, there is a problem.

We're talking about something like 1/3rd of the raid capable players wanting to hold on to ~80% of the content and only in a way that makes it so no one can ever realistically try to plan their play time around it to get a shot.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, you're saying TMO is entitled to more of a voice than the majority of the server when it comes to the raid scene because they prevented much of that majority from participating in it at that insane, extreme level? Tell me more about this sense of entitlement.

I know you're fishing for a yes, but it isn't that simple, so I'm sorry if a longer answer doesn't conveniently paint me as entitled for you.

There is first a definitional issue with WHO gets a voice. We can clearly see this in the raid forum. Notice that no elections were held, and no selection process was used. They simply rounded up the "top guilds" and gave them one vote each. Does this properly represent the server? Should each guild's vote count the same? What of the unguilded? As a thought experiment, if TMO, FE, and IB merged, should their voice carry the exact same weight as a small guild of elite players that has limited their guild size to 24 members? My view is that the new mega zerg clearly warrants more consideration to its perspective. This does not discount the smaller guild, but it does somewhat diminish their influence. The increased influence is due to size, dedication, level of participation, and other factors.

Secondly, you're framing the issue such that all the higher guilds are guilty of some nefarious scheme of exclusion. (Yes, there's a number of outright assholes in TMO, FE, and IB just want to ruin people's days. They deserve to be banned and removed from P99.) I agree with you that casuals are entitled to a reasonable expectation to meaningfully participate in the end game. However, the people you consider excluded simply found that participation was unpalatable as opposed to unavailable. If a party wrongs someone their voice should diminish. If another party simply doesn't "like" what the other party is doing it should have no bearing on the first party's influence.

I have freely acknowledged (in this very thread) that TMO does not speak for the server as if we counted for more than everyone else put together, nor should our voice alone decide the direction it goes in. I am making my point because I want to challenge the idea that all voices are equal by virtue of being present. I do this because I feel that notion is a disservice to the dialogue. Should 5,000 people make level 5 characters and play once a month for 10 minutes should we allow that group to impose their majority viewpoint on the server? I suspect most people will say "of course not!" Having established that the principle of "varied stake" is acceptable, I am simply seeking to apply that principle more specifically.

Originally Posted by Baalzy

How do you propose we weight things?

Honestly, I'm not certain. I think a good first step would be to recognize that varied stake is an acceptable concept. Coupling that with an admission from the raiding guilds that casuals should have a reasonable expectation to meaningfully participate in the end game would be a good start.

[goshozal]

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why does that matter?

Why is raiding the only fucking thing you guys think is important?

Hello there are 12k other people on the server enjoying things other than raiding.

Reasons why raiding is important:

1) It's the core of the endgame, i.e. what you do once you hit 60
2) It's the point of the game with the highest level of competition
3) Raiding generates loot that has the highest value of anything in the game (I mean in terms of rarity, power, etc. In b4 RMT trolls).
4) It's the hardest part of the game, requiring the best coordination of large numbers of players.
5) It takes a substantial investment on the part of the player (leveling a character, learning your shit, gearing yourself, getting in a guild, etc.)

I think a far better question is: why are you, Rogean, so surprised that the raiding guilds care primarily about raiding?

I spent a great deal of time on this server caring about things other than raiding. I leveled a character to 60. I made money. I worked my way through a grueling epic quest (16 pieces, no MQ). I made friends. I spent time helping people get their gear/epics/plat.

So what's wrong with me focusing on raiding? It's the big thing to do in this game that I never got to do on live. I've spent tons of hours and effort getting to the point where I get to participate, and now you're just going to up and change the rules?

Where were you in 2011? 2012? 2013?

I mean, sure, it's your sandbox. You can do what you want. Chances are, I'm already done. I've already lost the will to login after the Sirken ban lift/ nevermind debacle. But you should know that taking this sudden turnaround after years of silence is going to make people confused and angry. It's also very hard to get involved in these kinds of discussions without showing a bias... and, if anything, a bias on your part will be what kills the server.

[Tiggles]

People are clearly forgetting that people in TMO/FE/IB are better people than the rest of the server.

We deserve more because we are superior.

[Ella`Ella]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Seems people having fun in zones that don't involve raid targets is somehow offensive to Unbrella, although I'm not sure how.

I don't believe that you're oblivious to what I was saying, however I do believe that you are willfully ignorant. When one party has nothing at stake and another is being forced into a submissive position, fair negotiation cannot take place. But you're not interested if fairness, your interest clearly lies in something easily summed up by "no guild left behind".