Beware the gnome Whukes

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

... except where those scenarios carry a lack of hard evidence beyond server logs (as is almost certain unless a GM happens to wander past at the time), in which case FTE and firepower carries the day.

Got it.

I don't know what's saved server-side versus what is not. Obviously if there were evidence available to support the OP's claim the decision should be merited in his favor. However, Ambrotos' post seems to indicate that no evidence is available that would sufficiently support his claim.

Short of Whukes incriminating himself, yes there's only so much that can be done. Now, say he comes in here with a guilty attitude and a ton of butthurt (like I noted back on page 2) then yeah, a GM might be within his rights to say "you're either guilty as hell, or just very very rude, so I'm awarding the kill to the other guy."

However, that would again limit the ruling to this exact scenario. Short of proper facts being available do we WANT the rule to be "there is no rule?" If there's no evidence available the only standard is FTE. At the very least, that provides a reasonable way to measure an otherwise immeasurable situation and it gives notice to everyone exactly what measures they need to take to protect themselves.

Originally Posted by LiQuid

So it can't be proven that the monk was there for 6 hours and the wizard was there for 30 minutes? Can't GM's see when a character was on or offline?

I would think the server logs are detailed enough to show that, but Ambrotos' posts seem to say otherwise. If it can be proved that the OP was wrong, absolutely he should be compensated. However, it looks like it can't be proven. In that case, the only reasonable response is to measure what CAN be measured. Here, that would be FTE.

Originally Posted by Flamewraith

I'm sorry but 23 seconds is not a lot of time, especially at a strung out camp like Hadden. I know you're just working with what you have, but this is so disappointing. It's so obvious that the wiz is scum.

Originally Posted by Ambrotos [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"5. Outdoor pathing mobs are not campable unless you are sitting at the spawn point and able to engage it instantly. Outdoor mobs on fast respawn such as HG and spectres, if you cannot engage immediately you do not hold the camp. Please try and share with fellow players in these instances. "

Read the rules, most of them are there and easy to read. If AC is running around and you aren't there on it, it's FFA. That's the risk you run camping it in SoRo and not OOT.

This isn't quite as broad as it might appear. Note that this is for outdoor pathing mobs only. Hadden is not a pather, and you have similar, equally, authoritative GM posts that say this:

Originally Posted by Ephi

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=837655&postcount=13

With a spawn timer as long as Tranix, best bet is to give them a few minutes to engage.

There's no "you must wait X minutes" rule, but we'll use our best judgement given the encounter logs and player statements should an issue arise in that area.

Bottom line: don't be a greedy jerk. But also don't squat AFK in a camp hoping to hold it.

End result is that you should be given a reasonable amount of time to engage. That time can extend the longer a mob's spawn window is. For outdoor pathers the standard is "immediately engage" which is probably 15 seconds or so. The standard for all other mobs appears to be "reasonable amount of time" which is probably closer to 2-3 minutes depending upon the mob and the difficulty of the surrounding environment. (See: Discussing Ephi's use of "a few minutes" and what that means.)

[Ambrotos]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know what's saved server-side versus what is not. Obviously if there were evidence available to support the OP's claim the decision should be merited in his favor. However, Ambrotos' post seems to indicate that no evidence is available that would sufficiently support his claim.

Short of Whukes incriminating himself, yes there's only so much that can be done. Now, say he comes in here with a guilty attitude and a ton of butthurt (like I noted back on page 2) then yeah, a GM might be within his rights to say "you're either guilty as hell, or just very very rude, so I'm awarding the kill to the other guy."

However, that would again limit the ruling to this exact scenario. Short of proper facts being available do we WANT the rule to be "there is no rule?" If there's no evidence available the only standard is FTE. At the very least, that provides a reasonable way to measure an otherwise immeasurable situation and it gives notice to everyone exactly what measures they need to take to protect themselves.



I would think the server logs are detailed enough to show that, but Ambrotos' posts seem to say otherwise. If it can be proved that the OP was wrong, absolutely he should be compensated. However, it looks like it can't be proven. In that case, the only reasonable response is to measure what CAN be measured. Here, that would be FTE.

Originally Posted by Uthgaard [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Camping a mob is a privelege, not a right. If someone wants the privelege of having sole claim to a mob, they have to make the sacrifice of whatever else they could be doing with themselves. Claim to a camp is a considerable advantage, it comes with a cost. Choose wisely.

TL;DR
Want it? Be there when it spawns to kill it.

[TarukShmaruk]

Originally Posted by Ambrotos [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TL;DR
Want it? Be there when it spawns to kill it.

Ok. Thanks for clearing this up.

edit: does Hadden even path?

[kylok]

It's looking like the decision has been made, which is fine with me. Since Whukes logged after killing Hadden I've been able to retain the camp. Although it seems that there is no evidence that I could submit to prove that I had the camp. Server logs say he engaged before me, which is true, doesn't sound like a 6 hour video of me sitting at Hadden would do much beyond prove that I sat for 6 hours but missed a 30 second window. I will keep this kind of thing in mind when camping in the future (I also have Fraps now). Good luck to everyone on their current and future camps.

Would also like to thank Ambrotos again for his speedy and attentive responses on this issue.

[LiQuid]

After all is said and done Kata is a dummy for not being vigilant after he 1. KNEW Hadden was about to spawn and 2. saw Whukes back from his restful night of sleep.

I guess the valuable lesson learned here should be never to give anybody the benefit of the doubt that they aren't going to be a turdburglar.

Good luck on the next Hadden pop Kata. Make sure you get there a nice, early 30-45 seconds or so before he pops and hope whoever is there "camping" him is really into his cartoons.

[Danth]

I agree, 20 seconds is not a long time in a multi-hour camp, or even in an ordinary ~20 minute dungeon respawn wait for that matter. It is unreasonable to expect someone to give a computer 100% attention over a multi-hour session, and requiring it (at a cost of otherwise losing the camp) merely promotes unhealthy behavior. EQ is a game designed with lengthy sessions in mind and the rules ought to account for that. However, I don't make the rules. As such, I can merely ask for clarification:

If 20 seconds is too slow, than what's the permissible reaction time?

If the answer is "instant", then effectively every last camp boils down to FTE due to things like network lag and discrepancies between the local log and server log.

This question is not academic; as the GM's already know, come Velious and its likely high population, people WILL be fighting over camps. Clarification now may prevent some problems later.

Danth

[liveitup1216]

Originally Posted by Swish [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

TL;DR?

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

i love your gifs, but this one has made me laugh more than any p99 post ever.

[t0lkien]

... as I said, FTE and firepower. Sounds a lot to me like KSing, but there you.

[kylok]

Quick Fraps question - I have the buffer loop set to 30 seconds but my test video didn't have the 30 seconds from the buffer. Did I do something wrong here?

[liveitup1216]

Forget fraps you just need a stopwatch, if its up longer than 15 seconds feel free to kill it. The world's your oyster.