the EVIDENCE that GOD exists is the FACT that EXISTENCE EXISTS

[Eliseus]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ok so.

In my humble opinion: "people governing themselves without the overriding and overwhelming, pervasive and insidious nature of religion influencing every aspect of their lives" hasn't yet had it's day in court. We're still in the trasition phase. We've had possibly tens of thousands of years under the bondage of superstition, and the modern scientific movement to explain the nature of the universe in real terms is barely 100 years old, at the fullest extent of any rhetoric about what constitutes modern understanding. Religion still in fact holds sway in may places on earth. We haven't had a "shift away from state religion," but rather we are currently shifting. You claim that this shift hasn't diluted tyranny, but my friend, you're trying to dilute the ocean with a lake. It's going to take time.

I think this "transition" phase doesn't currently exist right now. Maybe it will one day, but considering majority of the U.S. population still feels that we need religion, we won't be seeing it for a while. Now, has this religious hold changed dramatically since the the colonization? Sure, but it's definitely still there, and is the majority (not even close to not the majority I might add) Sorry, just had to point out that there won't be any day soon that this "court" date you speak of will happen.

Also considering the constitution, it will most like NEVER make its day in court unless things in the U.S. are drastically changed, by that time, it will probably be the end of the World, so don't get your hopes up.

[Hasbinbad]

Modern science based skepticism has only been announced on the roster.

Like the man says, a number of years ago I'd be having this conversation at the risk of my life.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ok so.

In my humble opinion: "people governing themselves without the overriding and overwhelming, pervasive and insidious nature of religion influencing every aspect of their lives" hasn't yet had it's day in court. We're still in the trasition phase. We've had possibly tens of thousands of years under the bondage of superstition, and the modern scientific movement to explain the nature of the universe in real terms is barely 100 years old, at the fullest extent of any rhetoric about what constitutes modern understanding. Religion still in fact holds sway in may places on earth. We haven't had a "shift away from state religion," but rather we are currently shifting. You claim that this shift hasn't diluted tyranny, but my friend, you're trying to dilute the ocean with a lake. It's going to take time.

fair. my conception is different, but that's fair.

to me, religion is a replaceable red herring. most of the atrocities ascribed to religion were in fact driven by far more secular and cynical motivations. religion used to be a catch-all. it was nationalism, it was class warfare, it was racism, it was xenophobia, it was greed. in nazi germany, instead of killing for god, they killed for racial purity. 200, 500, 1500 years earlier, the same type of killings would've been primed in religious terms. stalin murdered anyone who opposed him. instead of religion, he did it in the name of the proletariat and the revolution. today, instead of screaming christ, we scream freedom or national security.

governments and people kill and oppress now for the same reasons they always have. religion is an easy rallying cry, but it's not a necessary one. if it's not religion, it's political ideology or racial purity or economic equity or nationalism

[Hasbinbad]

You don't know that. You absolutely do not know that, because the yoke is still on and we have not had a chance to try yet.

[Hasbinbad]

all of the current political ideologies are still informed by religious lobbyists.. you can't escape that.

[Hasbinbad]

and i am, by the way, absolutely not saying i trust people more than god.. if you haven't noticed, i am just as anti statist as i am anti religion.

[Daldolma]

i don't see how you can argue for both

if religion has been so insidiously and subversively pervasive as to manipulate every instance of modern government, secular or not, then how can you possibly condemn statism without first declawing religion? statism has barely had a chance; it has been doomed to failure from the start by the influence of religion

i don't believe that btw. every form of government we've conceived has failed and transgressed basic human rights. blaming religion is weak. people have been killing other people for money, women, land, power, etc in every society since time immemorial. it's human nature. you're blaming religion and government for reflecting humanity. we're a species that took a fledgling understanding of biology and turned it into eugenics and racial hygiene. we didn't need theism for that.

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

every form of government we've conceived has failed

You said it.

You have to understand that I see religion as a superstitious form of government.

[Hasbinbad]

But they have also specifically criminalized and morally outlawed behaviors and that needs to be addressed imho, to be called out for the charlatanism that it is, and also children are still being coerced into these cults, and that needs to not be ok.

[Eliseus]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But they have also specifically criminalized and morally outlawed behaviors and that needs to be addressed imho, to be called out for the charlatanism that it is, and also children are still being coerced into these cults, and that needs to not be ok.

Fuck off. If a parent wants their children to be raised into these so called "cults" then that should and will always be ok. I take it you aren't a parent. My child will and should do what I feel is morally right for him/her to do till he is old enough to choose do it his own. Considering that scientific evidence proves also that the brain full develops I think it was from ages 21-25, no, my children who will be confused from right vs wrong for most of their life will not be choosing to do whatever they so please.

So again, fuck you and your stupid opinion.