Bow damage formula?

[Snaggles]

I’ve always understood STR to be essentially archery attack despite DEX raising attack power with the BFG equipped in the main hand (a visual glitch as it’s been explained). That said, capping STR is easy with the right gear and a Focus where DEX is typically a bit behind.

I try to get DEX capped when I think I’ll Disc just to increase crit chances if nothing else.

In general, with moderate gear (or even solid) you can’t end up with a ton of STR, DEX, hps and MR so a cut has to happen. The obvious choice for me outside WIS is DEX.

I’d be curious for anyone wanting to parse the two stats, or a combination of them. If you plan to index finger your way to 60 it seems a worthwhile understanding. I still think maximizing damage per shot and getting a shaker for more procs and damage bonus is more reliable though. That and maybe crafting a macro to summon 4-6 stacks of arrows with /pause built in so you can shake a martini while the Tolan bracer is glowing. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[TytosOfEight]

Are you all testing this with max str? Because str increases atk, so even if bow damage relied on dex it would still increase with + atk. You need to max str and then test the difference between something like 100 dex vs. 200 dex, adjusting for crits.

[Jimjam]

HAHA! I love when people don't know how to play Rangers! Why do you think their symbol is a BOW AND QUIVER?!?!?! I have a VERY low level Ranger, he's got a higher skill in Archery than in 1HS (main weap). I have a 18 in Fletching, and I have about 100 arrows with me at all times. People seem to like to SoW low level chars running from things they accidently hit, so I have a lot of chances to kite. That's a solo Ranger's main advantage: he can be faster than the MOb trying to kill him. What you are obviously doing wrong is have only ONE stack of arrows as well as NOT kiting. Also, the main reason you need a bow and arrow is that you AREN'T a melee class. You AREN'T. You use your bow as your protection in combat. The MOb shouldn't come running at you, it should be coming at a warrior.

All you have to do is root, snare, Flame Lick, shoot. Shoot. Shoot. Shoot... I currently do 11 damage with my bow despite a skill of 8 in Archery and a bow with 50/10.

[Jimjam]

I believe I may have found evidence for some interesting bow damage on live (though post classic).

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/...10235874183573

It starts off noting what we remember from live (bow dmg + arrow dmg = max damage) then conceeds extra damage is possible at higher skill (level? gear?). They note that there doesn't seem to be a damage bonus / min damage is 1.

What caught my attention was this quote:

"Wondering how bow damage progresses beyond 175 skill? Saw an ogre shoot for 120 other day and was not a crit. Thats alot better than bow dmg + arrow damage which would be a max of about 50 with 40dmg bow and 10dmg arrow."

In 2002, why may an ogre non crit be 120? In 2002 how would this be possible? Fellstrike? Or some kind of damage bonus glitch from a 2 hander (which seems in conflict with the comment that at 175 skill the min damage is still 1)?

[Goregasmic]

Well so far, from the data bcbrown posted we know modal damage is not stat dependent and max hit seem to be governed by strength. Maybe the data is too noisy due to low samples but dex doesn't even seem to have a significant impact on crit rate which is the only thing it was supposed to do outside of procs. Doesn't seem to have an impact on hit rate either (that's probably archery skill). I've kinda been hoping dex does more than just proc rate since proc rate is pretty useful for rangers but so far it seems like it does little to nothing else.

The min damage on p99 seems to be weapon bonus since he scored an 11 lowest using 1handers.

For the comment about the ogre 120 damage I think a lot more context is needed to say anything.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

HAHA! I love when people don't know how to play Rangers! Why do you think their symbol is a BOW AND QUIVER?!?!?! I have a VERY low level Ranger, he's got a higher skill in Archery than in 1HS (main weap). I have a 18 in Fletching, and I have about 100 arrows with me at all times. People seem to like to SoW low level chars running from things they accidently hit, so I have a lot of chances to kite. That's a solo Ranger's main advantage: he can be faster than the MOb trying to kill him. What you are obviously doing wrong is have only ONE stack of arrows as well as NOT kiting. Also, the main reason you need a bow and arrow is that you AREN'T a melee class. You AREN'T. You use your bow as your protection in combat. The MOb shouldn't come running at you, it should be coming at a warrior.

All you have to do is root, snare, Flame Lick, shoot. Shoot. Shoot. Shoot... I currently do 11 damage with my bow despite a skill of 8 in Archery and a bow with 50/10.

This broke my brain until I realized you were quoting some rando dummy on ZAM, lol.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This broke my brain until I realized you were quoting some rando dummy on ZAM, lol.

I really enjoyed the 8 skill archer laying down the law on how to play a ranger [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[bcbrown]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In general, with moderate gear (or even solid) you can’t end up with a ton of STR, DEX, hps and MR so a cut has to happen. The obvious choice for me outside WIS is DEX.

Yeah, I think that's probably right. Perhaps dex over MR until level 50 or so. And one huge benefit of dex is faster swarmcaller procs. But I think I've reached the point where I'm ready to transition out of str/dex gear and into hp/resist gear. Now that my dps weapons don't proc I have less use for dex, and my str is significantly above the point where FoS caps it on raids. But it's still nice to be able to self-buff to 240 str while soloing. I'll be getting some Skyshrine armor in the couple months so that'll be a nice boost as well.

I hit 58 the other night off frost giant elites in GD. I was surprised at them being decent xp, a little slow but steady. I was able to kill 2 or 3 between breaks, and if I had a fungi it would have been a lot smoother. But alternating between melee and bow-rotting gives time for Chloro and the ikky bp to heal me up. And since I started at Allied with the Kromrif it was tons of fun not being kos to the green giants while pulling the elites.

Originally Posted by TytosOfEight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you all testing this with max str? Because str increases atk, so even if bow damage relied on dex it would still increase with + atk. You need to max str and then test the difference between something like 100 dex vs. 200 dex, adjusting for crits.

Not with max strength. I ran four trials: The first two kept dex constant and varied str at 239 and 162: max hit changed. The second two kept str constant and varied dex at 89 and 153: max hit didn't change. So if max hit didn't change with an extra 64 dex I'm pretty confident saying that dex doesn't affect max hit.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In 2002, why may an ogre non crit be 120? In 2002 how would this be possible? Fellstrike? Or some kind of damage bonus glitch from a 2 hander (which seems in conflict with the comment that at 175 skill the min damage is still 1)?

One explanation would be that the OP was bowing without any weapon in mainhand (so no bonus), or that their statement about min-hitting for 1 damage was from experiences prior to hitting the level where damage bonus starts.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I really enjoyed the 8 skill archer laying down the law on how to play a ranger [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fantastic quote! The combination of inexperience and overconfidence can be pretty funny... but you know I bet that guy was having the time of his life scooting around Qeynos Hills with a 10/50 bow, kiting grizzlies or whatever. I'm honestly starting to think it might be a lot of fun to try an SSF human ranger. Short Sword of Morin, Electrum-Bladed Wakizashi, Wakizashi of the Frozen Skies, Ivy-Etched Armor, there's some fun ranger quests.

[Baugi]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It starts off noting what we remember from live (bow dmg + arrow dmg = max damage) then conceeds extra damage is possible at higher skill (level? gear?). They note that there doesn't seem to be a damage bonus / min damage is 1.

What caught my attention was this quote:

"Wondering how bow damage progresses beyond 175 skill? Saw an ogre shoot for 120 other day and was not a crit. Thats alot better than bow dmg + arrow damage which would be a max of about 50 with 40dmg bow and 10dmg arrow."

In 2002, why may an ogre non crit be 120? In 2002 how would this be possible? Fellstrike? Or some kind of damage bonus glitch from a 2 hander (which seems in conflict with the comment that at 175 skill the min damage is still 1)?

Sub-50 players were mostly below the damage mod floor of 1x, which is why archery max damage mostly looked like just bow dmg + arrow damage. 120 is consistent with Luclin era warrior bows (e.g. War Bow of Rallos Zek - 43dmg) and the upper end of the damage mod range at 60 (capped at 2.85x). Live had no damage bonus for archery outside of trueshot, but I've never seen any indication that it otherwise deviated from the melee formula. TAKP did a much more thorough job with researching and replicating the original formulas - https://github.com/EQMacEmu

[Duik]

A condescending cockbag says what?