Is Shaman the BEST all-around class in the game?

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The -MR part classic players might not have known.

But as for all the rest ... again, it's idiotic to think live Enchanterss didn't try casting the spells on their list, or didn't try wearing Charisma gear (when Verant themselves told them to).

What makes you think I was talking about players 20 years ago? Only one person here is crying that charm lasts too long. I suggested that person not debuff the pet so charm breaks more frequently. Maybe I should put these protips in my forum signature.

[shovelquest]

We split the pond in MM up into 4 camps on live.

The logic about nerfing charm to emulate classic would be like saying we need to change all the spawn times in the game to be three times as long to emulate crowded zones.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But as for all the rest ... again, it's idiotic to think live Enchanterss didn't try casting the spells on their list, or didn't try wearing Charisma gear (when Verant themselves told them to).

They nerfed kiting, not charming on live: why?

Because nobody who played a enchanter knew how to charm/mez on live. It was a class never in any game ever before.

Mez? Wtf is mez? Nobody understood it. there were no timers, gaming was not even close to as hard core as it is now. Nobody ever played a game where you would "mez enemies while you kill the others" before.

My friend called me on the phone to tell me about this thing he saw, "this guy yelled TRAIN and then like a million gnolls came!"

This game was so new players didn't even know what a train was lol

Nobody would "time" mez and do data sheets on it for christ sake we were fighting with quested weapons from pre kunark for gods sake.

We were exploring. Adventuring. Being amazed at the first 3D open world fantasy game in history.

Aint nobody got time to min/max in a game when you would loose weeks worth of work from one death because EXP was so hard to get.

I cried. CRIED. when I lost my +7 charisma torch my necromancer used into his 20's!

Find one forum post about someone talking about charming from back then, you wont. Because nobody was on that level yet.

My static groups enchanter would chain AOE stun on bad pulls in lower guk!

It was like 5 years into p99 that charming became OP on these servers - because of TECMOS youtube tutorials.

Expecting keyboard turning, mostly kids, snail level APM gamers to manage charm (with no pet windows of any type) and mez, when they still had like 1 cloth item equipped at 50 is what's 'idiotic'.

If you were on the level of being in a guild where someone was able to use charm successfully, then you were like top 1% of everquest players. Im sorry but that's just a fact. And those people did not share info.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by shovelquest [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

They nerfed kiting, not charming on live: why?

Because nobody who played a enchanter knew how to charm/mez on live. It was a class never in any game ever before.

I love the logic here: Verant didn't nerf Enchanters, so our emulator made decades later can't possibly have the wrong numbers for charm resists/channeling/etc. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It couldn't possibly be that Enchanters just weren't as powerful on live now could it ...

Originally Posted by shovelquest [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If anyone ever charmed anything Im sure someone would be like WTF are you doing! (hmm that reminds me I seem to remember even on p99 clerics getting bothered that I'd be charming in MM, before everyone and their mother had a level 60 enchanter on p99)

So like, yeah, charming even here wasn't nearly as popular as it is now for years.

Again, that couldn't possibly be because charm actually was riskier on live, now could it?

[shovelquest]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I love the logic here: Verant didn't nerf Enchanters, so our emulator made decades later can't possibly have the wrong numbers for charm resists/channeling/etc. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, that isn't my logic.

My logic is that charming was so non-existent that it did not get hit with the nerf bat.

We were too busy kiting mobs thinking Druids were the most OP class.

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, that couldn't possibly be because charm actually was riskier on live, now could it?

Of course I am saying it was riskier, but not because it had shorter durations.

It was riskier because if I died I lost a months worth of work. And pbobuly my corpse.

[Duik]

Originally Posted by shovelquest [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mez? Wtf is mez? Nobody understood it. there were no timers, gaming was not even close to as hard core as it is now. Nobody ever played a game where you would "mez enemies while you kill the others" before.

Our live chanter in our static IRL friends group fully understood the mez mechanic. War mnk rog clr enc wiz.
On a multi pull in LGuk (for example) Chanter would call the next target. War would taunt a few times before engaging. War only at first then after agro build monk and rog would join.
We werent in a large guild and didnt frequent the class boards, although the rog went to safehouse? near the end.
Wiz was finisher and evac. Stuns roots and snares as needed. Cleric was boxed by the monk player so didnt really cast much apart from IVU and buffage. No paci or stuns etc, would defo fail a boxing test here lmao.
Enc never charmed. He had cha prioritized but lack of mobs made our slow but safe exp method good enuf.
We would be chumps here and now though.

People knew things but chewing through mobs faster would have just been more of a waste (there wasnt any). Groups everywhere from BR, gargoyles to ass/sup pulling only a couple static mobs with the odd pather depending on where you were.
I dont know if our chanter would have charmed or not. He did chat with some Southern Armada guild peeps so maybe learnt something about it from them.
I think we thort comfortable XP was better than min/max.
I was pretty clueless. I had a flux staff and didnt use it to reset GCD. What the hell was that!
What a newb.

[shovelquest]

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enc never charmed. He had cha prioritized but lack of mobs made our slow but safe exp method good enuf.
We would be chumps here and now though..

This too, like there was no reason to go through mobs fast enough to make charm even necessary because of the crowding.

If anyone ever charmed anything Im sure someone would be like WTF are you doing! (hmm that reminds me I seem to remember even on p99 clerics getting bothered that I'd be charming in MM, before everyone and their mother had a level 60 enchanter on p99)

So like, yeah, charming even here wasn't nearly as popular as it is now for years.

In a time period where asking someone to help you get your corpse meant risking giving them all your items, I just dont see people going into dungeons and charming for so many reasons other than charm not being classic in its current form.

I'm confident that way less people were charming strictly because we just didn't know how to play that well.

I played on Rallos Zek, and you could charm players. I definitely charmed them with my level 12 enchanter.

Also fearing was so funny, that was the best. Fearing someone that was talking trash. Watching them just dart off in a random direction was the best. Especially if they were sitting because they just pop up and run [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But charming a mob, I have no memory of anyone doing that.

I think we thort comfortable XP was better than min/max.

At the time, I thought we were min/maxing [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[loramin]

I feel like any response I give would just be going in circles, so I'll just say this: no Enchanter on this server need worry about my quest for more classic P99 Enchanters/charm.

For one thing, Nilbog has about a 0% chance of listening to me. I've been "whining" about wanting this to be more classic for years, and it has never changed a thing.

Heck, even when we have direct evidence that something needs fixing (eg. the channeling rate; go check the bug thread if you don't believe me), Nilbog hasn't addressed it ... although he hasn't addressed a lot of things lately, so I wouldn't read too much into that.

But even if he did suddenly decide tomorrow "Enchanters/charm should be more classic here" ... it's not going to wreck things. If Enchanters here solo 90% and group 10%, nothing Nilbog will ever do is going to change that back to live (where the ratio was much closer to 10%/90%). Maybe we'll get 15%/85% or 20%/80%.

At best, it will make the most OP class on the server a little bit more challenging to play ... and quite frankly "the powers that be nerfing the most powerful class" is, well, classic as fuck [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Duik]

I recall selling some neg MR shoulders from blackburrow to someone after OOC asking why would anyone want neg MR to wear +5 str is good i spose but... Maybe they used it for pets. I didnt ask and they didnt say. They bought a few pairs too.

[shovelquest]

I went to the earliest casters realm archive I could in the wayback, 2001, it had a complete spell list for enchanter with comments, I checked durations, and noticed all of them were 8 minuets, except dictate.

Then I got totally carried away and highlighted and bolded the best parts. Fun read if anything. But... it does have some interesting numbers...

I think you can definitely get a consensus for some max duration differences, also some discussion about level caps, and an amazing update I hope we can get at the bottom.

It also has a lot of mentions about how much of an impact high CHA has, with high 150's being what the most confident players seem to average, so at 255 you may get frequent max durations but it's hard to say from any of these comments because it's safe to say they were all pretty much trashcans.

Here's the enchanter section of CR from 2000

Max Durations:

I'm not sure where our numbers come from, since we just had a change in some of them, surely there is a thread/wiki about it? Idk, well here's some info from the first few months of 2001!

Charm
Casters Realm: Max Duration: 8 minutes
p99: Duration 4.6 minutes L12 to 20.5 minutes L65

Beguile:
Casters Realm: Max Duration: 8 minutes
p99: Duration 8.2 minutes L24 to 20.5 minutes L65

Cajoling Whispers
Casters Realm: Max Duration: 8 minutes
P99: Duration 12.7 minutes L39 to 20.5 minutes L65

Comments

I highlighted anything that stood out related to durations in bold. The first one mentions the level cap, and corroborates the 8 minuet duration by calling it pretty hot and tempting. It does imply that number hits enough for it to feel phat. 90's kids know what that means.

ALLURE LIMITS, By Matil trynstum (3/7/2001)

Allure cannot be cast on mobs over 51st level. Boltran's can be cast on higher level mobs, but is still random duration. You might get a phat pet for 8 minute. You might get a phat pet for 4 seconds. You are guarenteed 48 seconds. I think for a level 60 spell the duration should be longer, but you stop using allure at lvl 53, period.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] lol @ PVP charm.

CHARM FOR PVP, By Roderin (3/16/2001)

I had heard that charming other pc's in PvP was nerfed, but back when it wasn't my place for Duels was in WK, where the entire fight would consist of Tash, Charm, run your new pet out to the river and set him to guard.

At least we know it lasts long enough to drown a player [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Next we get the first few minuets comment.

HARMING AN NPC'S SUMMONED PET, By Nybble of eci (1/28/2001)

I have found a GREAT way to use charm safely. I was in Befallen with a group, and we were overrun by some mobs. I cast Charm on a neophyte's pet and had it kill the neophyte. When charm broke a few minutes later, the pet simply killed itself. I guess it tried to go back to being the neophyte's pet, and since he was dead, it poofed.
I'm sorry if this is common knowledge, but I have never heard this mentioned before as a strategy. It makes charm nearly 100% safe, if you can find an NPC-summoned pet.

Someone casually using charm to great effect on the orc hill. The joy those newbies must have felt this day...

ENCHANTERS RULE!, By Congdon (1/28/2001)

By far I've had the most fun out of all my classes with enchanters. At 16 I was sitting at the orc hill charming orc's, and making them just run around killing other orcs; while all the newbies that didnt catch on would shout "Omg! Orcs are fighting amongst each other".

I think this one describes what I believe was called Charm Kiting which is mentioned in this 2002 CR enchanter strategy guide.

It also implies that charm doesn't last that long, but lasts long enough to get a spec to 5%

NO BRAINER 35 TO 47 IF YOU DONT' GET BORED..., By Telish (1/28/2001)

1) Go to oasis, get sowed, put air elemental up 2) Pull 4 specs, as they approach the shoreline charm one, make sure it's not in the water when you cast it... 3) Specs will cast wimpy DD lifetap on you, your pet will get pissed and attack the other 3 specs... 4) Watch your pet's health, when he's at 1/5 health or a bit less, cast invis, run yer ass off making sure your 4 specs (three full health one almost dead) are in a tight group... 5) Pick a full health spec and charm it, he'll get pissed at the 2 other full heatlh specs when they cast wimpy DDs on you, and so they fight.. 6) Your 1/5 health spec will still be coming after you. Root him, nuke him, leave his corpse for later... 7) Check your new pets health, he should be dying up pretty nice by now.. Invis to break charm.. 8) Rinse Repeat Also: Always dispense clarity to the zone, specially if you need sows etc, it may get annoying but you'll never be slow or low hit points... Also: You will go crazy doing this, especially during hell levels.. Get yer lazy self out of oasis and go do lower guk or something.. This is a piss poor strategy to levelling in my opinion -- tho very fast. Enchanters are meant for groups... A good enchanter, specially at high levels, is almost always the difference between life and death in the high level dungeons.. Oh yeah, and always use charm, not the upgrades... Doesn't last as long, but it lasts long enuff for what you are doing.. You wont be able to get the other upgrades off by the time your spec is in range and the spell hits.. This you can kite the spec and charm without it ever so much as scratching you... If you call getting doubled for 96 a scratch... Telish Khaotic 50 ench VZ

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] More PVP charm!

THE BEST ENCHANTER SPELL, By Bababooey (1/28/2001)

The best enchanter spell or any spell is the charm spells.But the reall good thing is a PvP or PvP teams server u can charm other people.Just wanted to let u guys know that is u dont like a Pc charm and chuck his ass of a cliff. thats my 2c

Another few minuets duration.

CHARM VS. ANIMATIONS, By Synge drakesphyre (1/28/2001)

I'm currently a lvl 13 Enchanter and was quite excited to finally have charm at my disposal. When 12 I headed into Lava Storm and tried my animation vs blue con mobs. The Animation died fairly quickly and I wound up taking a lot of damage and so was down resting for extended periods of time. (yes, I used debuffs on mobs and buffs on my pet) I switched to Charm and grabbed Fire Drakes and even white con Rock Dervs and did very well. I hunted near Najena so I could zone when required. Lava Storm was fine but with all of the Fire Elementals jumping me, I left and hit South Ro. In S Ro I charm desert Madmen and they kick ass. I am VERY happy when I get a casting madman as he seems to be able to drop the mobs the best. Here's my usual strategy.. 1) Select target for charm and open up with Tashan (ALWAYS use Tashan) then charm 2) Send pet against a nearby mob (it iws best to select two mobs when preparing to charm so you don't waste time running around looking for something to kill). If the mob is white/yellow vs your blue madman, debuff it. 3) If the pet is low on health after the battle, have it guard somewhere, wander off a little, invis and then kill it.. Two sets of XP for the price of one! (sending the pet against a spider for the poison is even better since after the spider dies you are fighting a mob with a poison DoT on it already) I have found that when charm breaks, recasting charm fails a lot faster so I'd advise tashan then re-charm (if you can). I had a RED Dry Bones pet in S Ro last for 3 mins (charmed him by accident during a fight) and yellow Dry Bones and Ghoul pets last for several battles. Always stay near the zone into Oasis for when charm breaks at a bad time.

Is this next guy saying people were DPS racing for exp from mobs? That's amazing if that was the culture on whatever server this was.

It also mentions at least one of these charms lasting "a good 2 minuets".

CHARMING IS FUN!!!!, By Calinis dreammaker (1/28/2001)

Here is a little something I found out one time. I was in HHP fighting orcs by myself without a group. I noticed I was getting only 1 of 10 kills. This sucked. So, I sat back and watched everyone fight for a couple minutes and found out that the Orc Fanatics hit for 44dmg max. I thought fast and acted. I charmed a Fanatic and he stayed charmed for a good two mins. Now I was getting 8 of 10 kills. I had him attack everything that moved(NPC). HAHA, when I was finished with him, I just took him to the ol' Captain and had him attack. Needless to say I ran to zone came back and all the people there weren't upset with me. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Calinis Dreammaker Povar BTW, when your pet comes to attack after the charm, quickly cast mesmerize. It works wonders!

This is just a good story.

BEGUILE IS A GOOD WAY TO STOP KS, By Qinya (1/28/2001)

A friend of mine was try to get a dink from Dvinn but people were ks her, so she starteed charming him. This allowed her to do three things: first the wizard and the mage would alway waste a lot of mana try to nuke him. Second she was able to move dvinn to the enterance of crushbone where she could escape if she got in trouble. Third she would cas a dot on Dvinn and the recharm him. This allowed her to do the most damage. By using charm she did not get ks after that and she finally got her dink. The best party was she taught the people trying to ks her a lesson about the true power of enchanters.

This one is crazy, wtf?

CHARM / BEGUILE, By Nallatikie nomanna - xegony (1/28/2001)

Certainly you can use any spell for a parlor trick. The charm serious has serious uses in the field. I dont even bother with pets most of the time anymore, because when the group pulls a few, i ae mez the lot of them, i charm the lowst and have it assist my tank. I then watch the whole train for attack movement. If the train starts to attack again, i remez. I have the whole group attack a single target at a time and have my pet assist until it is either dead or the train is. As an answer to the person who wrote that the charm series is buggy. The reason your pet did not attack its intended target is because they will not commit blatent suicide. If you charm a green or a low blue and tell it to attack a red, it will not do so. It will act as you described. Good Luck to all of you out there, ours is a difficult job, especially when no one lets us perform it (they dont understand ae mez and /assist on the main tank) Nallatikie Nomanna

This one points out that the pets taunt and get agro. Which they do on live, but not on p99. It also does say charisma is a big effect on charm (this is not the first time that's mentioned, why did p99 change that?).

AGGRO NOT BAD
Posted: Sunday, January 28, 2001
I have 2 regular enchanters that I group with regularly and this spell is not quite a super-mega taunt. When the spell breaks any good fighter who has a high taunt can get the monster off in 1-3 rounds of melee combat. 2 rounds being the usual amount of time, 1 and 3 more rare and happening an equal number of times. Also, Charisma makes all the differnce to enchanters, you won't need all the extra mana from INT as your spells will hold a lot longer.

OK this one is funny @loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] He says with 156 Cha charm lasts "all day long" which got me like this.

But then notice, what he describes "all day long" [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] About the length of a fight before breaking it and killing it.

ERY PLEASED WITH THIS SPELL
Posted: Sunday, January 28, 2001
With a mere 156 charisma, I've found this spell just lasts all day long. This weekend I used beguile a lot, leveled up to 39, and used this one a whole lot more. In dozens of charms, I had one instant break and one or two resists; every other time it lasted the length of the fight, and I was able to break it at my leisure with invis. In certain instances this is better than mez for group crowd control. One good tactic is to mez the group, charm one your group isn't hitting, then have your pet attack a mezed mob. Immediately switch the pet's target to your group's target. Now your pet and the first one you sicced it on are dealing damage, and are just as out of the fight as if you had mezed them. Beautiful. Also charmed wizards can be a beautiful thing; I have a screenshot of a spiritish ancille getting level 39 for me ). Overall it's a very efficient way of getting your share of the damage in, and leaves you with plenty mana to celerity those tanks between fights when they ask for it every 8 min or so! ouch! Tabien 39 enchanter Quellious

one or two battles with 130 cha

TRY IT ON SONIC BATS IN SOLB
Posted: Sunday, January 28, 2001
I have found that this spell is a great help when fighting the bats on solb - when the puller pulls 2-3 bats - use this spell and have it assist the puller and mez the other one- be warned that you need to have a charisma over 130 to hold em for a good length of time for at least one or two battles - have fun.

I also notice a lot of talk about level caps:

WHAT LEVEL IS TOO HIGH?, By Motley (1/28/2001)

Being a level 37 enc, going into a duel with a 39 SK, I figured beguile was my best shot at winning the match. To my suprise, I got the message 'Too high level to charm' or some such. I guess the cap isn't 39, or at least it isn't including 39.

The level caps make me very concerned, was that a thing in classic? When was that added? This is 2001, so perhaps there was a charm nerf/update/patch at some point that shortened durations? Maybe added level caps?

Were level caps always a thing? They are super annoying on live in the velious expansion. It's not much of an issue in Kunark though.

I feel like more than a few are mentioning that the cap is not as high as CR says it is, implying maybe there were no caps (CR does list level caps on the spell pages).

WHAT LEVEL IS TOO HIGH?, By Motley (1/28/2001)

Being a level 37 enc, going into a duel with a 39 SK, I figured beguile was my best shot at winning the match. To my suprise, I got the message 'Too high level to charm' or some such. I guess the cap isn't 39, or at least it isn't including 39.

This one is for Begile, which says the limit is 35.

THIS SPELL CAN CHARM CRITTERS IN EXCESS OF 35TH, By Rayn d'mente of bristlebain (1/28/2001)

Fighting specs has become my cottage way of breaking out of level 35. Occasionally something bad happens and multiple specs charge me. Many times I have been able to charm Yellow con specs with this spell, which, of course, means that the spec is 36th or above. I suspect the problem that was encountered by the person trying to charm the merchant was because those sort of NPCs have insane magic resist. -Rayn d'Mente "Are you going to believe me or your own eyes?"

DOES THIS GET 35'S?, By Tabien (1/28/2001)

The max level is listed as 35, but when trying to charm a merchant (something I've wanted to do since the first one I tried to talk to without hitting "enter"...unfortunately there was an "a" in the phrase!) the other day. I know for certain he is level 35, and he resisted four straight times... and he conned blue. I've never been resisted by a blue more than once, so I wonder if merchants have far higher MR than others? Or is 35 just out of the level range for Beguile? The message was the normal "Your target has resisted the Beguile spell" one; nothing in there about being too high for the spell. Tabien 37 enchanter Quellious

CHARM, By Canar the 22 enchanter (1/28/2001)

The reason is says the mob is too high to charm is because charm will not work on any mobs lvl 24 or higher. The lizzy might have been only 1 level lower then you so you couldnt charm it

SOMETIMES YOU CANNOT USE CHARM, By Leonheart (1/28/2001)

Well I am level 25 and fighting in CT, when I try to charm blue Liz (sent, defender). It give message of something like "the mob is too high level to be charmed". So it might suggest we can only use Beguile??

VERY BUGGY?, By Harach (1/28/2001)

A lot of times I charm (or beguile) a monster or whatever, and then tell him to attack another - He'll run back and forth, not doing anything. Once the monster I told to attack dies from something else, it will come back to its senses and come back to me. Charm may be bugged in dungeons and similar places. I mean, if I mess around with it in the Qeynos newbie area, it works fine. Most other places it messes up, though.

It's still OP!! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I SECOND THE CB IDEA., By Quist majere (1/28/2001)

I was charming orcs once I got the spell. It was so funny watching the Lord Take on the entire throne room, and he won. Free exp. I was to try Dvinn when i hit 24 just to repay him and the orcs for the number of times he killed me.

The tale of the Aviaks Adventure [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

NOT ULTRA MEGA TAUNT, By Zaltik squeaky (1/28/2001)

along the lines of the previous post: I charmed an aviak guard in lake rathe after we pulled too much. He smacked up the other two guards, and once the were dead he began to walk towards the coastline. Long story short, he swam out into the middle of the sea and we never saw him again. No Ultra Mega-Taunt for me!

LEVEL CAP AT LEAST 46
Posted: Monday, October 29, 2001
I charmed an even con Tatterback ape in BW yesterday at level 46, so cap is wrong, should be at least 46.

Oh and this, we must find out if this is true!

This spell may not be used on players on PVP servers, but will work in duels.

Well, from all of this, Id say that 3-4 mins would be the average low/high and 5-8 would be max Cha and 1-2 mins would be the low cha.

That would certanly change the way people used charm.. a bit..

Anyway...

#MakeDuelingPlayersCharmmable

[loramin]

Originally Posted by shovelquest [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wall of text

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think this proves at least one thing I've been saying: the idea that Enchanters were too afraid to try using their spell list on live was complete and utter BS [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As for the rest, I'd love to see charm durations match classic evidence (although I'd imagine Nilbog would want more evidence, as just a few data points can be suspect ... classic reporters weren't the most realiable). And I'd love to see the "pets can't attack reds" stuff (that Jimjam recently discovered also).

Really, I'd welcome anything that helps make P99 pass my "Street Fighter 2 test" [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]