Best Server Community Sin--Wait, Nevermind

[Odeseus]

Phrag, your intentions are well placed, but your logic is faulty. I think mainly because you simply care too much and have too high of standards for yourself. As Pico mention, step back from the game or else you're going to have a major meltdown sooner rather than later.

For one, you seem to be somewhat intelligent. So you must know that anonymity that the internet creates makes it MUCH MUCH MUCH more likely for a normally well-adjusted person to act like a total dick. I tend to view my character as a version of myself, and try to act like I would in RL (aka normal, repsectful, etc.). But you must know that this view is a minority in the world of video games. Many people here (and elsewhere) have no emotional connection to their characters. They buy and sell them, or use them as an outlet for things they wouldn't do in RL (ie, being mean).

Also, you have got to understand that not everyone follows your understanding of what is right. There is not, nor will there ever be, a complete and total consensus about what is right and wrong. Even if it is because some people will always be deranged enough to bend or break the rules of what is accepted and what isn't. And much of what you have a problem with is simply your opinion. And you cannot force your opinions on the rest of the people. You can try, but on the internet it simply won't work. You have to be smart enough to realize this.

Now for your actual post.

1. I've played EQ before--classic--a lot. Druid by the name of Demoree on Innoruuk had most of my time--ended up I think just inside of level 52 before I quit right after PoP was released. I'm new to the server, not the game.

How does this matter at all? Almost everyone here has played EQ in the past in some aspect. I personally played for 10 years. But let's be honest, how does this matter in the least? You know how to play the game.....so what?

but I can still appeal to common sense

Common sense is not common. You should know this by now. Don't rely on it because people will let you down.

I'm sure that everybody here who cares about the server's sustainability already knows all this and has spent enough time thinking about it for it to have already sunk in--but if you claim to care about the server and still treat people badly, maybe it hasn't

You put too much faith in people. The VAST majority of the population doesn't think about the relationship between the sustainability of the server and their actions. We are playing to have fun playing a game that we enjoy. That is about as far as it goes, to be honest. We simply do not make that connection that you want to make. Instead, most players have to goals: 1) have fun 2) get gear. That's as complex as it gets.

If one of them leaves because you were a dick to him, you have 699. If twenty of them leave because you and four friends made the game unenjoyable for them, you have 680. If a few small guilds leave because they're overwhelmed and denied access to content because your guild has a policy of being inconsiderate, you have 600 (I'm not alleging any of this; it's hypothetical). Do you see where I'm going here?

Slippery slope. What is the connection between acting like a dick and people quitting? Honestly, there is no stats or information to back this up. It is all your opinion yet again. The only way to get this stat is to have a survey about former p99 players to find out why they left. And it is my opinion that the difficulty of leveling and/or getting money/gear, and lack of content at 50 if you don't feel like poopsocking would be MUCH MUCH MUCH higher than "people were mean to me."

if the only people left to play it with are pricks who would jack a camp I've held for 12 hours if I die and it takes me 60 seconds to get back to it?

No where in your original telling of the story did you mention about where the chanter was bound. I try to bind near where I'm camping so I can go back to it if I die. Most people will let you go back to a camp, but there are many factors that go into this that you willfully ignore. Such as: desirability of the camp, difficulty of the camp, location of the camp, etc. Each of these changes for each camp. Such as camps in the Paw that I like to frequent. Often I can go back if I have to gate and/or die, simply because not many people are in the zone to notice I'm gone, nor are the camps super desirable. AC is about THE most desirable camp, it is easy to get to (at least in SRo), it is VERY easy (just boring) among other things. You simply can't demand everyone be super nice for these kind of camps, because it won't happen.

What happened between the members of VD and Rilen was wrong. That's the long and short of it. It was legal (legal, at least if the camp meets the definition of a camp under the server rules, and since I haven't seen any staff interpretation on the definition or application to this particular area of the game world, I'm not prepared to take a position on that), but what happened was fundamentally unjust. That means something to me.

It was wrong IN YOUR OPINION. How many times do I have to repeat that? Just because you see something is wrong, doesn't mean that it is. You are not the ultimate arbiter of what is wrong and what is right. Some people that democracy is evil as hell. Most Americans would think just the opposite. Some people like to eat rats, squirrels and bugs. I think that is disgusting but who the hell am I to make some grand judgment?

I have read everything that you have posted, and have responded to the best of my ability. Your move.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

...a bunch of idealistic, utopian stuff...

I apologize... I didn't realize we were all playing "Phragmar's View of What Everquest Should Be Like".

Do not hold my guild or others accountable for your vision of the way things are supposed to be. Who are you to decide what is right and wrong? These things are spelled out objectively in the server ruleset precisely so people aren't held accountable to every Tom, Dick, and Harry's subjective view of right and wrong. The only reason you think something is a douchebag move is because you want to pick and choose which parts of the rule set you want to play by, and which parts you don't, and then paint some evil picture of whoever doesn't pick and choose in the same fashion.

No one's going to leave the server because they were "treated like a dick." They are going to leave the server because they didn't agree with the rule set, or were too oversensitive to handle the rule set being applied in a situation that was not in their favor (i.e. retaining a camp for X number of minutes after you die/wipe.)

Rilen died, for whatever reason, and lost the camp. At the time he was sent to his bind point by whatever killed him, the camp no longer belonged to him. I don't care which way you want to twist it... if you for one second suppose that the camp still belonged to him after he died, then you're saying camps can be reserved for an unspecified amount of time while the player is on CR. Which, if you played Live as you have claimed, you know is totally ridiculous.

Now you come here with your own made-up rules in your head that people should wait X number of minutes for someone to come back to a camp after they failed to keep it and died. Who are you to make up this rule? How am I supposed to know I am being held accountable for it? What is this magical number X number of minutes I must wait before the camp is no longer theirs? And when you see members of my guild not abide by this artificial ruleset, they're the douchebags? They're evil? They're loot-centric?

What about the person making up rules magically protecting someone's claim to a camp while they aren't even in the zone? Because they died. Which are completely different than the established rules set forth by the server admins so that there would be no question about this situation?

I know this is a carebear server, but what you're looking for is a server powered by rainbows and unicorn farts. Sorry the population of P1999 didn't live up to your divine standards. I hope you don't plan to do any raiding any time soon, because you're in for a rude awakening. No, if you wipe on Naggy, the guild breathing down your necks behind you is not going to give you as many attempts as you want until you give up and graciously let them take a turn. This was no different on Live, so it shouldn't be a shocker to you here.

Again, sorry we all disappointed you. I guess that's really all I have to say. And if you need a SoW in EC Tunnel while I'm standing there, I'll still give one to you if you'd like.

[soup]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I apologize... I didn't realize we were all playing "Phragmar's View of What Everquest Should Be Like".

Do not hold my guild or others accountable for your vision of the way things are supposed to be. Who are you to decide what is right and wrong? These things are spelled out objectively in the server ruleset precisely so people aren't held accountable to every Tom, Dick, and Harry's subjective view of right and wrong. The only reason you think something is a douchebag move is because you want to pick and choose which parts of the rule set you want to play by, and which parts you don't, and then paint some evil picture of whoever doesn't pick and choose in the same fashion.

No one's going to leave the server because they were "treated like a dick." They are going to leave the server because they didn't agree with the rule set, or were too oversensitive to handle the rule set being applied in a situation that was not in their favor (i.e. retaining a camp for X number of minutes after you die/wipe.)

Rilen died, for whatever reason, and lost the camp. At the time he was sent to his bind point by whatever killed him, the camp no longer belonged to him. I don't care which way you want to twist it... if you for one second suppose that the camp still belonged to him after he died, then you're saying camps can be reserved for an unspecified amount of time while the player is on CR. Which, if you played Live as you have claimed, you know is totally ridiculous.

Now you come here with your own made-up rules in your head that people should wait X number of minutes for someone to come back to a camp after they failed to keep it and died. Who are you to make up this rule? How am I supposed to know I am being held accountable for it? What is this magical number X number of minutes I must wait before the camp is no longer theirs? And when you see members of my guild not abide by this artificial ruleset, they're the douchebags? They're evil? They're loot-centric?

What about the person making up rules magically protecting someone's claim to a camp while they aren't even in the zone? Because they died. Which are completely different than the established rules set forth by the server admins so that there would be no question about this situation?

I know this is a carebear server, but what you're looking for is a server powered by rainbows and unicorn farts. Sorry the population of P1999 didn't live up to your divine standards. I hope you don't plan to do any raiding any time soon, because you're in for a rude awakening. No, if you wipe on Naggy, the guild breathing down your necks behind you is not going to give you as many attempts as you want until you give up and graciously let them take a turn. This was no different on Live, so it shouldn't be a shocker to you here.

Again, sorry we all disappointed you. I guess that's really all I have to say. And if you need a SoW in EC Tunnel while I'm standing there, I'll still give one to you if you'd like.

You keep citing the rules as what decides what is or isn't a douche bag thing to do. "These are the rules we agree on and outside of that it's fair game." but that's a pretty crappy way to look at things. There is PLENTY that should NOT be a rule but still makes you a douche bag for doing it. I can make a hypothetical scenario in 20 seconds to show this.

Say you're a class that can cast SoW. A naked lowbie runs up to you and asks if he can have a SoW for his corpse run. You tell him you will SoW him for 10 plat, no less. He informs you that he is naked and on CR and has no plat, furthermore he informs you he just spent all his plat on a piece of banded armor. You're sitting there with GEBs and BS jewelry and encumbered because of the 20k you're carrying as well as having a full mana bar and are doing nothing, but you still refuse to SoW him without receiving 10plat in exchange for it. Is this a douche bag thing to do?

Please, anyone who does not think that's a douche bag thing to do, tell me now so I can stick you on ignore. With that said, there absolutely should NOT be any kind of rule AT ALL against that.

[Darian]

Originally Posted by Phragmar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What happened between the members of VD and Rilen was wrong. That's the long and short of it. It was legal (legal, at least if the camp meets the definition of a camp under the server rules, and since I haven't seen any staff interpretation on the definition or application to this particular area of the game world, I'm not prepared to take a position on that), but what happened was fundamentally unjust. That means something to me.

K. I'm parking my necro at Lord camp until I get a pair of yaks. When people ask if Lord camp is open, I will respond that I alone am camping the mob and no one else is allowed to have a shot at it. If there is a group of 3 people behind me wanting a shot, I will tell them to wait their turn. If I die, I expect them to wait until I have finished running back without a port from Kerra Isle where I bound myself-- because after all, they saw me die and they know it's my camp. If they try to take the camp, I will call them loot-greedy douchebags and label the situation fundamentally unjust.

This is a league game. This determines who enters the next round-robin. Am I wrong?

Originally Posted by Soup

Say you're a class that can cast SoW. A naked lowbie runs up to you and asks if he can have a SoW for his corpse run. You tell him you will SoW him for 10 plat, no less. He informs you that he is naked and on CR and has no plat, furthermore he informs you he just spent all his plat on a piece of banded armor. You're sitting there with GEBs and BS jewelry and encumbered because of the 20k you're carrying as well as having a full mana bar and are doing nothing, but you still refuse to SoW him without receiving 10plat in exchange for it. Is this a douche bag thing to do?

Please, anyone who does not think that's a douche bag thing to do, tell me now so I can stick you on ignore. With that said, there absolutely should NOT be any kind of rule AT ALL against that.

So you don't want to punish people who don't believe in forced charity, you just want to publicly shame them. Got it.

[soup]

Originally Posted by Darian [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

K. I'm parking my necro at Lord camp until I get a pair of yaks. When people ask if Lord camp is open, I will respond that I alone am camping the mob and no one else is allowed to have a shot at it. If there is a group of 3 people behind me wanting a shot, I will tell them to wait their turn. If I die, I expect them to wait until I have finished running back without a port from Kerra Isle where I bound myself-- because after all, they saw me die and they know it's my camp. If they try to take the camp, I will call them loot-greedy douchebags and label the situation fundamentally unjust.

This is a league game. This determines who enters the next round-robin. Am I wrong?



So you don't want to punish people who don't believe in forced charity, you just want to publicly shame them. Got it.

Usually when people resort to using excessively exaggerated extremes to defend their position, it's the same thing as saying "I know things look and sound really bad, but I don't want to admit it."


@ your ninja edit
I'm not sure where you read that in what I posted. All I said is that the rules don't dictate what is or isn't a dick thing to do. Anyone who thinks the rules DO dictate what is or isn't a dick thing to do is either an asshole or a simpleton. Often a combination of both.

[Darian]

Originally Posted by soup [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Usually when people resort to using excessively exaggerated extremes to defend their position, it's the same thing as saying "I know things look and sound really bad, but I don't want to admit it."

Excessively exaggerated? The only things I changed from the OP's story were the mob in question and the bind point, the latter of which (as you've just told us) shouldn't matter.

Originally Posted by soup

@ your ninja edit
I'm not sure where you read that in what I posted. All I said is that the rules don't dictate what is or isn't a dick thing to do. Anyone who thinks the rules DO dictate what is or isn't a dick thing to do is either an asshole or a simpleton. Often a combination of both.

I agree with you there. Where we disagree is that I happen to think when a camper dies, comes back, finds camp taken, then argues he should be given unlimited chances and deaths to kill the mob without anyone else having a chance (even if he's in over his head)... well, I think that guy is the bigger dick than the folks who took the camp in his absence. The fact that my position lines up better with server rules doesn't mean the rules dictate my morality.

If it had been me camping and I'd died, I wouldn't begrudge people for taking the camp. I expect the best from my guildmates (there's that community thing you're talking about), but I just don't think they're in the wrong here.

oh and inb4 RnF switch

[Rhodes]

Part of claiming and holding a camp means being able to do so without dying, is this incorrect?

[Rais]

I wouldn't say anything if I lost a camp or kill area if I died and someone else moved in. It's happened at Lord/King/Frenzy/Sage while I played Truegem, and I dragged my body away like a dumbass enchanter and moved on.

I've seen it happen to Kaushi in mistmoore, I've seen it happen to myself, and other guild members. It happens, if you can't keep a camp because you died, it's on you. It sucks.

If my guild members didn't train him, dispell root/snare, or some other dick move. I really can't come down on them. From reading what happened, dude was dead. It's fair game.

I'm pretty sure any guild on this server that raids has dealt with me in fear/hate,know I'm pretty fair. I've helped make raiding zones a lot better between guilds and less of the bullshit that use to go down. So if there is other issues at hand about my guild members, just let me know.I'll take care of it.

[shuklak]

that's unfortuante...

in a game like this, everyones fun and good times will live and die according to the strength of the community. make no mistake about it.

[Nocte]

If the enchanter was high-level, and he died in SRo (and the AC didn't spawn), what killed him? How does a high-level character (a chanter, no less) die in South Ro to anything that spawns in the zone (other than AC)?