What is the hardest dungeon in the game?

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by mickmoranis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the difference between HS and every other zone is, once you die, you stand around and go... uh what now? we have no possible way of getting our corpses 'as normal human beings who play a video game'...

This is just being lazy or bad, not "normal." It's not level 10 in crushbone. It's not level 35 in overthere. Just because you can't run directly to your body without invis, maybe needing to dodge a pather or two, and rez in a guaranteed safe spot, doesn't mean it's out of reach for a normal player.

1. Double invis
2. Monks, necros, shadowknights
3. Dying above tunnels
4. Rogues
5. Tricks (stalking probes, corpsed keys)
6. Friends; alts in convenient locations
7. Fighting back in


But enough about CRs. CRs are supposed to be a small part of what a remotely-competent group does. Even if I conceded, arguendo, that CRs in HS are harder... what of the majority of the time when you aren't CRing, but actually fighting?

At 60 in HS you're doing south or east. Fighting level 49-55 mobs that hit for 136-160. There's a necro here or there casting spells. Maybe half the mobs you pull can harmtouch for around 500. Resists are normal. Pulls are regularly 2-3 mobs at a time, biggest maybe 5-6 without legit training yourself. Pathing isn't bad.

At 60 in SG, you get to exploit water clearing aggro (if fighting mobs from the water, anyway), though it isn't always a get-out-of-jail-free card. The typical mobs you're fighting do stuff like: buff themselves with cleric HP buffs, cast 70% haste on all mobs within range, double backstab for 800, hit for 230-280ish, resist slow after tash 3-4 times in a row (or more)... even if they are the same level as stuff in HS. The tougher mobs are like killing a higher-level vox/nagafen. Pathing sucks. Swimming can be a pain. Pulls might be single regularly, but they can be 3+ too (have fun keeping stuff rooted or even sticking mezzes).

Originally Posted by mickmoranis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Remember folks 1000+ hours expereince doent mean the zone is easy, it means you are expereinced in it.

This doesn't work in your favor. If I spent 1000+ hours in SG, would I be soloing icy servants regularly? Breaking the rooms of sirens to kill a named one? Able to gate out, make a corpse, then run back in to my camp quickly enough to loot a lore item off a corpse? No.

[branamil]

If we had access to some stats I would bet SG would be the least killed dungeon. I would bet some spawn points have never been killed by players since it's inception. Inside there castle there are sometimes 7+ mobs within line of sight to eachother, and 2 or more icy servants that proc a 500 pts aoe dispel. It's completely absurd, you would need more players than it takes for some ToV dragons. And for what? Netted kelp leggings?

[mickmoranis]

Originally Posted by branamil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If we had access to some stats I would bet SG would be the least killed dungeon. I would bet some spawn points have never been killed by players since it's inception. Inside there castle there are sometimes 7+ mobs within line of sight to eachother, and 2 or more icy servants that proc a 500 pts aoe dispel. It's completely absurd, you would need more players than it takes for some ToV dragons. And for what? Netted kelp leggings?

if you're basing the definition of a difficult dungeon based on how many people go to it, then you may as well say paw is the most difficult dungeon in the game. People dont go to SG becuse the quality of the pve is shit (to long to fight, not to hard) and the quality of the drops are shit (just this crap: Cloak of the Seacaller, Neriad Shawl, Seahorse Scale Cloak, Wavecrasher) and then put faction on top of it and there is your answer.

People dont go to SG cus its a junk zone, not becuse its super hard or something.

its damn pretty zone, but it aint no special zone thats off limits cus of difficulty.

Originally Posted by skarlorn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People solo HS all the time. Like you can even solo drusella if you are the right class with luck. I used to duo her all the time.

I agree with tecmos, sg is worse. You don't see lone enchanter and necros cutting thru that zone.

Sure hs is hard and unforgiving, but honestly once you understand how to deal with the zone it's not so bad. Actually one of my faves.

The mobs are just not the type that are condusvie to soloing, look if you have an exploit (TOT on ht mobs) and the ability to swap pets, sure HS is a great zone for you, but dude watch a group of 6 go in there, and watch them warp out naked and then not know what to do for days without help from other high level players or a GM

That wont happen 100% the time in SG but it will in HS

[Triiz]

Originally Posted by mickmoranis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

sure HS is a great zone for you, but dude watch a group of 6 go in there, and watch them warp out naked and then not know what to do for days without help from other high level players or a GM

What kind of group of 6 is this? Do they not have a rogue or necro? Seems unlikely. There's a bank a 1 min run away that anyone can use to store CR stuff in. A hard CR and a hard dungeon is two completely different things imo. A hard CR in HS is easily circumvented by inviting a rogue or a necro to the group also known as being prepared.

SG isn't empty because the loot sucks, a 150-200k best in slot drum drops there and a 70k belt drops there, Seahorse hide cloak from your list drops in Kedge. How many other zones can a small group that knows what they're doing walk out with a single item worth 150k (price was closer to 250k and was still empty) if they're lucky?

Every single mob in HS can be solo'd by a 60 enchanter, that is definitely not true of SG

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EDIT
This is the bug post I referred to: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...ighlight=siren

That post from Telin is from June, we are definitely in pre-nerf SG atm. The fact it was nerfed very quickly on live to be more "group friendly" just reinforces that it's the hardest dungeon in the game.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Triiz [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What kind of group of 6 is this? Do they not have a rogue or necro? Seems unlikely. There's a bank a 1 min run away that anyone can use to store CR stuff in. A hard CR and a hard dungeon is two completely different things imo. A hard CR in HS is easily circumvented by inviting a rogue or a necro to the group also known as being prepared.

SG isn't empty because the loot sucks, a 150-200k best in slot drum drops there and a 70k belt drops there, Seahorse hide cloak from your list drops in Kedge. How many other zones can a small group that knows what they're doing walk out with a single item worth 150k (price was closer to 250k and was still empty) if they're lucky?

Every single mob in HS can be solo'd by a 60 enchanter, that is definitely not true of SG



That post from Telin is from June, we are definitely in pre-nerf SG atm. The fact it was nerfed very quickly on live to be more "group friendly" just reinforces that it's the hardest dungeon in the game.

I was thinking all of this too when he said SG had trash for loots. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[skarlorn]

Seb at twenty is upper guk, tecmos!

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by mickmoranis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

its damn pretty zone

We agree on this though, lol.

[mickmoranis]

Look at it like this.

take all the mechanics in SG and all the mechanics in HS, make the mobs hit for the same, make them all HT the same, make them have all the same MR resists.

Which zone would be more difficult? The one that has 8 no rent keys for 99% of the zone? or the one where you can use water and dry land to expoit pathing, faction, and no keys at all?

one of those zones will end catastrophic log off naked failure and the other will result in some nice chap waltzing up to your corpses, draggin them back and then u all having another go at it.

HS > SG by far

Just because SG is broken and designed poorly doesnt mean its a harder zone, its just a broken zone with terrible mob stats that make it a waste of anyones time, not to mention the loot is pretty shit, you aint going to be leaving there with some treasure to sell from a PUG

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by mickmoranis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look at it like this.

take all the mechanics in SG and all the mechanics in HS, make the mobs hit for the same, make them all HT the same, make them have all the same MR resists.

Which zone would be more difficult? The one that has 8 no rent keys for 99% of the zone? or the one where you can use water and dry land to expoit pathing, faction, and no keys at all?

one of those zones will end catastrophic log off naked failure and the other will result in some nice chap waltzing up to your corpses, draggin them back and then u all having another go at it.

HS > SG by far

Just because SG is broken and designed poorly doesnt mean its a harder zone, its just a broken zone with terrible mob stats that make it a waste of anyones time, not to mention the loot is pretty shit, you aint going to be leaving there with some treasure to sell from a PUG

This is nonsense, man. "If we normalize all the dungeons, which one is hardest?" isn't the title of the thread or what the OP talks about. He talks about appropriate level and gear of the group.

If you wanted to do that, Kerra Isle would be the worst. Have you ever seen that fucking zone? Imagine it full of level 50-55 rangers, shamans, clerics, wizards... with all the pathers running around with sow and blinds/roots/snares/dots/heals/slows... all fully shaman buffed? Lol. Only mitigating factor would be outdoors so harmony pulls.

That'd be fun though, considering what different dungeons would play out like if you scaled their levels. Kerra or kurns at 55? Seb at 20? Haha.

[mickmoranis]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is nonsense, man. "If we normalize all the dungeons, which one is hardest?" isn't the title of the thread or what the OP talks about. He talks about appropriate level and gear of the group.

If you wanted to do that, Kerra Isle would be the worst. Have you ever seen that fucking zone? Imagine it full of level 50-55 rangers, shamans, clerics, wizards... with all the pathers running around with sow and blinds/roots/snares/dots/heals/slows... all fully shaman buffed? Lol. Only mitigating factor would be outdoors so harmony pulls.

That'd be fun though, considering what different dungeons would play out like if you scaled their levels. Kerra or kurns at 55? Seb at 20? Haha.

who whoa whoa cool your jets man, lets not turn this into who can nerd rage the quickest, I want to just try to discuss it, i know its easy to heh.

But seriously, I would say, kerra isle, if it were a level 60 dungeon, WOULD be the hardest dungeon in the game.

Simply put even if you took 6 people who raid NTOV to HS that have never once leveled with eachother and said, ok here is a dungeon you have 2 days to get through it and get all the loot.

I think they'd do better in SG then they would in HS, barring the fact that some loot is just not 'gettable' becuse its not group loot in SG... SG is really more of a mini raid zone, not a group zone, hs is a pug group zone, not a mini raid zone.

I think they woudl discover that HS is WAY harder becuse of shit they were not excpecting...

RE-traversing each wing realizing they need keys they dont have, wipe, then realizing they need to retrieve there corpses naked or that the rogue is dead becuse they didnt know some biles see invis and some dont.

Traps, reseting progress in EACH WING

Idiots pulling 3 adds and wiping the group cus of HT's

That shit doesnt happen in SG, I have never seen someone accidientaly wipe a group in SG and I have in virtually every pug in HS