Raid guild loot systems other than DKP?

[Expediency]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you're getting paid currency as compensation for performing a task then you're working a job by definition. Heck, most of the guilds that use currency systems, including yours, have some form of application process too! As such, I require dollars as my compensation, not "DKP" or whatever you call your company scrip.


You show up because you like that zone. No other motivation is necessary. If you don't like the content, why would you want to be coerced into spending your hobby time doing something you dislike?

Danth

I'm convinced that you are trolling. Coerced? This is a social game. I take my character to sky to help someone get what they want, they help me kill a dragon to get what I want. Either we can have a huge and complex system of "who owes who a favor"barter system or else we can institute a currency to help solve that problem. Its very elegant if you ask me, I cant speak for others but I have never seen a better loot system in an MMO than the one we're using. I flat out dont trust loot council guilds and /random has so many obvious pitfalls that unless the randoms are total greed based that is a foolish system.

[Expediency]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Believe it or not, some people like helping others. Some people like to be in a guild that believes in building their entire guild up so the force is strong as a whole and not just the ones who have 15 hours a day where they can sit and soak up all the DKP offered by your type of raid guild.

My time is valuable to me, this just isnt realistic. We have a few players that have very high raid attendance, why should they sit around and wait for the really casual guy to build up? Thats a recipe for your top people leaving for greener pastures.

Just because someone goes to 80% of the raids doesn't indicate how much they contribute on those raids, so the statement that "oh, well if someone is going to 80% of the raids they deserve twice as much as the guy that only goes to 40%!" This is one fault of the DKP sponge system, sponges can go and hump raid mobs every day all week, and then have tons of DKP and not contribute hardly at all to the raids.

I am just saying there are other incentives for people to take part in raids other than getting their own loots. Greed is a driving force and loot is a big incentive for many, but not all.

We keep logs of raids and check them afterwards for activity. If someone is afk for long periods of time they do not get credit for that hour of raiding. This is common in raiding guilds. If you stand around soaking exp, you WILL get called out.

[Rygar]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I understand the theory here and there is some truth to it. However you are glossing over the bad aspects of your DKP system and pointing out only the good.

To keep saying there's no incentive for players to do a raid where no loot for them will drop isn't completely true. There are actually people who have other motivations besides getting loot.

Believe it or not, some people like helping others. Some people like to be in a guild that believes in building their entire guild up so the force is strong as a whole and not just the ones who have 15 hours a day where they can sit and soak up all the DKP offered by your type of raid guild.

Just because someone goes to 80% of the raids doesn't indicate how much they contribute on those raids, so the statement that "oh, well if someone is going to 80% of the raids they deserve twice as much as the guy that only goes to 40%!" This is one fault of the DKP sponge system, sponges can go and hump raid mobs every day all week, and then have tons of DKP and not contribute hardly at all to the raids.

I am just saying there are other incentives for people to take part in raids other than getting their own loots. Greed is a driving force and loot is a big incentive for many, but not all.

AG routinely has non-DKP event raids for epics and hard quest mobs and the like. I believe when Expediency was saying, "why would I show up if /rand was the only way to get loot and I have everything from that zone" was just showing in general what the problems with a /rand system is. You'll have some folks that contribute to help out of course, but you'll have folks that may lose incentive so raid attendance may not be as strong. DKP is a good incentive when there is no loot at stake in a current raid because you can build up points for future raids.

I encourage you not to snip out a statement and point out everything wrong with that statement on its own, look for the context.

[maskedmelon]

To a guild, someone who attends 80% of raids is more valuable than someone who attends 40%, because if everyone only attends 40%, your roster needs to be twice as large to field the same number of people per raid. You are also then retarding the guild's progress by spreading that loot across more individuals, so you effectively require twice as many people to advance at half the rate. Ultimately, this sort of setup discourages camaraderie because players do not feel that their efforts are appreciated and that will cause them to leave eventually.

I don't have 16 hours a day to track mobs. I am not even able to play every day. But I do not discount the value that those who are able to play 16hours a day bring to their guilds. Whatever their reasons, without them there would be no FTEs, no bat phones, no kills, no loot.

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To a guild, someone who attends 80% of raids is more valuable than someone who attends 40%, because if everyone only attends 40%, your roster needs to be twice as large to field the same number of people per raid. You are also then retarding the guild's progress by spreading that loot across more individuals, so you effectively require twice as many people to advance at half the rate. Ultimately, this sort of setup discourages camaraderie because players do not feel that their efforts are appreciated and that will cause them to leave eventually.

I don't have 16 hours a day to track mobs. I am not even able to play every day. But I do not discount the value that those who are able to play 16hours a day bring to their guilds. Whatever their reasons, without them there would be no FTEs, no bat phones, no kills, no loot.

Amount of time played has nothing to do with what the player contributes. Just because they soak up tons of DKP does not prove they are a contributing cog in the raid guild.

I am not saying that it's not beneficial to have very active players who do a large portion of the work on raids. But to pretend that all members that have high attendance are useful, necessary members that only help to create a more positive, cameraderie in a guild seems a bit far fetched and idealistic.

[Expediency]

Originally Posted by Lhancelot [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Amount of time played has nothing to do with what the player contributes. Just because they soak up tons of DKP does not prove they are a contributing cog in the raid guild.

I am not saying that it's not beneficial to have very active players who do a large portion of the work on raids. But to pretend that all members that have high attendance are useful, necessary members that only help to create a more positive, cameraderie in a guild seems a bit far fetched and idealistic.

Its pretty obvious when someone isnt pulling their weight. If you're just standing around in HoT for an hour, we can tell.

Originally Posted by Expediency [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We keep logs of raids and check them afterwards for activity. If someone is afk for long periods of time they do not get credit for that hour of raiding. This is common in raiding guilds. If you stand around soaking exp, you WILL get called out.

[thufir]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't have 16 hours a day to track mobs. I am not even able to play every day. But I do not discount the value that those who are able to play 16hours a day bring to their guilds. Whatever their reasons, without them there would be no FTEs, no bat phones, no kills, no loot.

this is not precisely true

if we were *entirely* without them, everyone would still get loot

only the existence of these people on the server requires that your guild have them yourself

[Expediency]

Originally Posted by maskedmelon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To a guild, someone who attends 80% of raids is more valuable than someone who attends 40%, because if everyone only attends 40%, your roster needs to be twice as large to field the same number of people per raid. You are also then retarding the guild's progress by spreading that loot across more individuals, so you effectively require twice as many people to advance at half the rate. Ultimately, this sort of setup discourages camaraderie because players do not feel that their efforts are appreciated and that will cause them to leave eventually.

This is absolutely true. We have about 10-20 players who play very regularly, log in for most batphones, and have huge DKP totals. These people can be counted on. Its only fair that when the best stuff drops, they have the points to spend on it. Why give it to someone who only shows up once a week? Everyone benefits when the most active players have the best stuff, if fairly earned. If you only play once a week and want some top velious dragon loot, you can absolutely get it, but you are going to have to wait a lot longer than the guy helping kill three mobs a day.

There's also a trickle down effect, our top players have most everything they want except for the top dragon items, so when mid tier dragon items drop (that 95% of the server would love to have) those items are obtainable by the more casual members, or even alts.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Expediency [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We keep logs of raids and check them afterwards for activity. If someone is afk for long periods of time they do not get credit for that hour of raiding.

That other guy was trying to insist that your guild's not effectively a job....meanwhile you're talking about people being monitored to ensure a certain level of production, about them being penalized for not meeting it, about maintaining logs of guildmates' actions, and about people being reliable for putting themselves on-call 24/7. All this from a guild that calls itself "casual?" You folks have a vastly different notion of "casual" than I have!

Danth

[Lhancelot]

Originally Posted by Expediency [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is absolutely true. We have about 10-20 players who play very regularly, log in for most batphones, and have huge DKP totals. These people can be counted on. Its only fair that when the best stuff drops, they have the points to spend on it.

So, is this the "coterie" group of players that one guy posted about, who he claimed that in AG got all the loots while everyone else got scraps?