ATTN: All Raiding Guilds

[Culkasi]

I understand what you are saying Chest, I just don't see how it can happen. As long as there is just one guild willing to spend resources doing it, the rest can either do the same, or go away. There has been no coth-tracking on Sev for a long time, you guys showed up last weekend, started coth-ttracking, refused to talk about it, and we could either open our own two chains (welcome back Kunark) or call it a day. Its just the way this server works, more investment = more pixels, and pixels are more important than our sanity.
If its not server rules, any agreement on this server, rotation/non-mage/Noble/insertsomethingelshere only lasts until someone is willing to take a step closer to the edge of sanity for pixels. It becomes an escalating arms race.

I am all for stopping all this nonsense, but as you and I both know, any agremeent we make will only last until someone inevitably makes a pixel-grab, unless it is somehow enforced.
We have too many mouths to feed with too little food, so people becoming willing to things that none of us should have too, to try and feed. The only way to stop that, is to regulate our ways out of it from the top, because self regulation doesn't work.

[Kileras]

The reason guilds like mine are able to find room to breathe is because of how much of a time commitment it is for your massive forces to go for the best content in the game. Now when it comes to repops being frequent I understand how this benefits basically everyone on the server who is going to try and up their activity in raiding, but smaller variance is something that i think we all "want" but in practice only hurts the majority of the smaller tier guilds.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you guys weren't so busy with the body sink that is tracking/parking for NtoV and other targets... would you just end up bored and coming down the food chain to out-game/out-sock the lower tier content that has been moderately accessible to anyone that wants to try and step up to compete?

anything that happens that lightens the load on the large guilds from a logistics point of view, does nothing to stop the mentality that you want to get every single thing you can get. So, by lightening that burden of the sock it just invites you to lock down even more content ( barring a quake ).

Us more casual folks are the ones that find the socking and tracking barrier of entry so daunting, i want it gone more than anyone. Problem is this server is so incredibly top heavy and competitive that if that burden was lifted universally i only see it resulting in the largest most dedicated guilds locking down even more content.

This goes back to the original issue as well, are we meting to discuss how wack all this training is and what the punishments should be? or are we meeting to actually deal with the incredibly difficult raiding environment/culture as a whole? For some reason, i don't think the latter is on the table.

tl;dr, reducing time commitment/resource commitment will just make competitive guilds fill their man hours with locking down more mobs, Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Pint]

If windows are shorter and repops are more frequent then we're not going to have time to go contest you in kunark bc we will have too much overlap to contend with on the fronts that we are interested in. It would mean your chances at ntov would decline but your chances at ntov are already effectively 0% so I'm not sure where else youre aiming to go. The only reason aftermath currently kills anything in kunark is bc the windows are stretching out and we're less consumed with the targets we want. Ultimately you are wrong on this one and the reality is exactly opposite of your interpretation (in my opinion).

[Kileras]

Originally Posted by Pint [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If windows are shorter and repops are more frequent then we're not going to have time to go contest you in kunark bc we will have too much overlap to contend with on the fronts that we are interested in. It would mean your chances at ntov would decline but your chances at ntov are already effectively 0% so I'm not sure where else youre aiming to go. The only reason aftermath currently kills anything in kunark is bc the windows are stretching out and we're less consumed with the targets we want. Ultimately you are wrong on this one and the reality is exactly opposite of your interpretation (in my opinion).

I agree with you completely if there are frequent quakes, as in my first comment. But smaller windows without more frequent quakes is what i was talking about.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Kileras [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree with you completely if there are frequent quakes, as in my first comment. But smaller windows without more frequent quakes is what i was talking about.

It's still very unlikely and would take at least 1-2 months of no reset to have this unfold... Even then, I don't see much if any effort being put into Sev for example when Hoshkar begins dropping green scales, regardless of the spread of Windows.

[Breaken]

Reducing variance puts windows of *all* mobs closer together. (Kunark and Velious)

Assume for a moment that midday Sunday we had a respawn, and all mobs were up. They will all die within.. 4? hours? Now if the variance of the server was 8 hours, week after week, these mobs will spawn overlapping. It would take much longer for the spawns to spread like they are right now. As it currently stands, mobs are so spread out that guilds can compete on more mobs, granted it requires a tremendous amount of work due to basically having a new mob in window at all times.

Couple reduced variance with more sim repops, and windows will stay close together even longer, maybe indefinitely. This allows the smaller guilds to have uncontested raids because I can guarantee you won't see Awakened, and probably the same for Aftermath, going for any mob deemed "lesser" when CT, KT, Doze, and Vulak are in window at the same time.

[arsenalpow]

It turns ToV into a roped off area essentially. Even on a repop if pulling to the entrance is a thing it becomes almost impossible for a second guild to setup. That was apparent during the last repop when we got steamrolled by a bad ForsakenGard pull.

Lesser variance would be swell, but I think 16 hours gives a fair shake to the euro population. That amount of variance gets pops all throughout the day. Limiting variance to a small amount ensures that mobs will never really leave their initial windows.

Something that would be a simple fix is earthquake currently fully reset velious timers but not any other timers. That's bad.

[Daldaen]

ToV has 3-4 safe spots basically.

Entrance, LTK, Eashen Stairs and 1-2 little hallways/corners in HoT.

If guilds aren't allowed to pull to entrance, which I do understand the motivation behind, there aren't many safe spots left. Now... You can suggest people just clear up, but as long as FTE remains the mode of determining rights to a mob that's bound to encourage training, leapfrogging and QQ.

The zone simply was not designed for multiple guilds competing for the same mob. It's a dungeon that has linear paths where guilds must herpderp on top of one another.

Removing the non-classic Flurry Drakes that roam between Triplets and Doubles would add 2 more safe spots which would alleviate some of the issues, but not all of them.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

ToV has 3-4 safe spots basically.

Entrance, LTK, Eashen Stairs and 1-2 little hallways/corners in HoT.

If guilds aren't allowed to pull to entrance, which I do understand the motivation behind, there aren't many safe spots left. Now... You can suggest people just clear up, but as long as FTE remains the mode of determining rights to a mob that's bound to encourage training, leapfrogging and QQ.

The zone simply was not designed for multiple guilds competing for the same mob. It's a dungeon that has linear paths where guilds must herpderp on top of one another.

Removing the non-classic Flurry Drakes that roam between Triplets and Doubles would add 2 more safe spots which would alleviate some of the issues, but not all of them.

Eashen stairs are only kinda safe. If a force is at the stairs, pulling anything from North will likely eat that raid force, it's just like pulling through someone at the entrance hallway.

Everything you're saying is why we need to re-think the raid scene somehow. You're right, ToV wasn't meant to be shared because there are a minimal number of spots, so let's figure something out. We are in this super unique scenario where there's literally 10 guilds that could kill stuff in ToV, and probably 5 or 6 that could merc Vulak or Vyemm. That's never been something any EQ server has had to deal with, the next expansion would open and the pressure would be released. We don't have that here. Footraces for a shot are a tiny improvement over a coth race but it's still a tiny bandaid on a gaping wound.

[bktroost]

If winning weren't important you could just rotate single attempts on mobs each week. Do you know how many failed attempts the casual guilds would have on the dragons they actually CAN kill? There would be plenty of ffa competition each week.

Also, very few casual guilds want to spend their entire weekend killing every Dragon in ToV, especially if we are killing up to the mobs. Too much time investment. So if you went down the rotation road you wouldn't be divvying up the zone into equal shares. Hard core would stay Hard core and not all guilds would be created equal...which is 100% fine by everyone involved.