Class defining epic

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

another way of doing it would be to think about which classes (on live) were able to stop equipping their epics first and which weren't even carried around in bags.

there were some that were out by late kunark and early velious. others that lasted all the way to plane of time or beyond.

my two most "class defining" were the bard and the wizard. both are game changers in terms of play style. both looked hella cool. bard would equip his until plane of time, wizard would carry his until plane of time; outliving the usefulness of many other epics.

i'm partial though; I played bard and wizard on live.

Good bards dumped theirs in PoWater! That Hydrotha Mask was the shit.

And Cleric epic is best. After a Cazic Thule run I rezzed probably 30 people. The amount of time it takes a cleric to med for 30 rezzes is over an hour and a half. The amount of time the cleric epic saves is huge.

[wycca]

Wiz epic is sorta lackluster. If you're looking at items as hard to get as an epic, you also have to consider every other option.

The wiz epic replicates the effect (plus a minor boost) of the spell manaskin for 0 mana and 0 reagents. That's not nothing, but it's also not a ton.

You can't really look at the clicky as a boost to mana regen (ie assuming you combine it with a mana stone or manna robe). It's more dps and less work clicking to just pickup a Rend robe, a Hoshkar staff, or a Velk robe.

As a free rune on AE fights - it does have some minor use. It's worthless for the most part in Kunark because most raid mobs die before it eats through your manaskin+manaskin combo. In velious, it has some more use. A well adjusted wizard can likely mana-dump on an AE mob fast enough to not take significant damage from any AE's before ducking behind a wall. It's sole major use is re-runing during breaks hiding behind a wall. That isn't horrid, but hey, diamond wands rot also, so it's not quite as good as it could be.

As far as stats, the wiz epic disappoints. It's good for pure mana fights, but not game-changing. If the mob has a MR, PR, or FR/CR AE, then you're going to instead be using a phinny staff or a staff of gabstik. In fact, the wiz epic is the only epic, where the items you turnin, add up to better stats than the final epic.

TL[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]R - The wiz epic is nice, but it's hardly game changing. A mana-free rune is useful, but is not class defining or game changing. There's a reason it's ~#3 on my Kunark wish list behind 2 other clickies.


Also, just wanted to put out that Rangers are probably the most lucky melee class in terms of epic. They get the major advantages of the rogue epic in the offhand, in the mainhand they get another great weapon with a slow/agro proc. Additionally, they get the effect of the monk epic in a friggin PoSky cloak. It's a great raid epic for them and a phenominal solo epic.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not saying you are. Just other people aren't agreeing with my bias towards rogue epic, which is the best epic, and therefore thread is wrong and silly.

I agree, rogue epic is the most defining epic, it's not even a contest.

Except a few other minor things (like picklock or CRs), rogues only do one thing and have a single purpose. Damage. Their epic have the most impact because it directly increases the damage they do, which, coincidentally, is pretty much the only thing they're doing.

Other classes have workarounds and other skills/spells, meaning their epic won't create a strong impact like it does for rogues.

Which leads to me disagreeing with most people in this thread gushing about the bard epic, when in reality, while it's nice... It's definitely not *that* amazing.

The most common argument is the singing mod. It's true that it's the only item in the game that modifies singing. But does it really matter? In the grand scheme of things, not really, no.

So what does increased singing modifier gives to a bard. Well, it gives you slightly better resists and DS from psalms, a better single-target snare/AC/AGI debuff with the level 51 song and a bit more mana per cast with the level 32 song. Haste and slow values on songs are never modified, whether from the voice modifier on the epic or by any instruments. Is it good? Yep, no doubt. Game-changing? Not even close.

The epic proc is surely very nice. 55% haste is better than what you can provide with songs, albeit still under what a chanter will give to melee in a raid setting. So unless you're in a melee-heavy group without a chanter, the proc basically becomes a +30STR/ATK for the melee group. Is it nice? Yes, of course. Does it give you whiter teeth and a bigger penis? Nope.

The epic also gives bard the luxury to not switch instruments during combat, or to play certain songs that require an instrument. You also give slightly better stats from songs that have stats associated to them due to the all-around 18 mod given by the epic, while you melee. Is it desirable? Of course. Is it worth selling your wife and child for it? I don't think so.

Now, when i read things like:

Originally Posted by -Catherin- [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bard epic is really the only epic I can think of that fundamentally changes how the actual class operates and is played. Depends what your definition of class defining is but to me that covers it.

I just shake my head. A bard with, or without epic operates and is played the exact same way. You still mez and charm for CC, you still buff the melee in combat and help casters regen mana. You still give resists to your group in a raid.

Sure, you get some nice bonuses and an awesome proc (if there's no enchanter around), but that's it. Being able to give +40 MR or 10 more points on a damage shield isn't game-changing in any way whatsoever. At the very best, you will be able to pump more mana in the longer velious fights in the caster group, which might be noticeable to them after puretone fades.

The raving comments in this thread about the bard epic leads me to think that people are affected by the sunken cost fallacy, which makes you believe something is better because you have invested a lot in it. I had my epic during PoP, i raided and grouped with it. It is certainly nice and if someone magically offered me a bard epic MQ for free, i'd absolutely take it.

But "fundamentally changes the way the class operates as a whole". Not even close.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And Cleric epic is best. After a Cazic Thule run I rezzed probably 30 people. The amount of time it takes a cleric to med for 30 rezzes is over an hour and a half. The amount of time the cleric epic saves is huge.

that's not how raid recovery works, though. without the epic, you would focus on rezzing other clerics first and then necros, mages, and enchanters to contribute to your rezzers so that it wouldn't be one single cleric rezzing the entire raid force. the epic truly only helps on the first few clicks, after that the difference is going to be marginal.

Originally Posted by Erydan Ouragan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A bard with, or without epic operates and is played the exact same way.

We'll agree to disagree.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Bard - no other epic is as class changing or offers as much diversity as the bard epic moving bards from mana batteries to front line fighters

That is just ridiculous.

A bard should always do what's best for the group/raid. If you're in the melee group, you buff the melee. If you're in the tank group providing DS, you should provide the best DS available (which means switching your epic for a brass instrument when applying Mcvaxius). If you're in the caster group, you pump mana.

In a normal group setting, in special cases like a melee-heavy group without a chanter around, then yes, you want to melee to keep the epic proc buff at all times.

But if the caster group is struggling for mana while you're meleeing on the account that you have your epic, then you're playing badly.

[Erydan Ouragan]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We'll agree to disagree.

Well then, by all means, tell me what is so different in the way an epic vs a non-epic bard is played.

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Erydan Ouragan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

tell me what is so different in the way an epic vs a non-epic bard is played.

well first of all, bard is a melee hybrid. if a bard is forced to use instrument for mods 100% of the time, he would be doing negligible damage with his autos from an empty hand. with epic, he only does slightly more than negligible damage, but at least there's a weapon in that hand now. if that's not a different way to play, i don't know what is.

[fastboy21]

If you are max'ing there is no other item in the entire game until late PoP that adds voice mod. For a class that is basically not gear dependent it is an extremely important item to have. If you are a guild bard (raiding) then the ones with epic are the more usefull; it doesn't matter how good you are, if you don't have epic you'll always play second fiddle (see what I did there?) to the ones that do for tank grps, etc.

It doesn't change how you play in the sense that you are memming different songs or twisting any differently.

It does make a big difference in having an instrument mod on all the time AND being able to melee. But its still just twisting and hitting auto attack; that's not what he meant by game changing though imo.

[Daldaen]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

that's not how raid recovery works, though. without the epic, you would focus on rezzing other clerics first and then necros, mages, and enchanters to contribute to your rezzers so that it wouldn't be one single cleric rezzing the entire raid force. the epic truly only helps on the first few clicks, after that the difference is going to be marginal.



We'll agree to disagree.

Nope nope nope.

I understand you could cleric Rez some clerics then some mana batteries. But EVERY wipe, if you have a raid force of 50 players, Rezzing all of them costs 50*700*0.9=31500 Mana. Without buffs that's 1575 Med ticks. Over 2.5 hours of medding. That can be split by multiple clerics on the raid, and that can be accelerated with enchanters, bards and Necromancers. But that is still a huge amount of unnecessary downtime. Cleric epics give you more attempts per night and more clears completed instead of being called halfway through because they get people up faster with no mana burned.

Bard epic is good. It's addition to singing equates to 56 extra resist for an entire group. That's like adding a Tranix Crown, Earring of Essence, and 2 Jacinth Rings worth of resists to everyone in the group. Just because of that bard epic.

So it will save you mana in-fights from healing and increase DPS because people live longer.

Also some people mentioned it earlier - No bard mana songs are modifiable. The cantata modifies the HP given, the mana however cannot be increased. If it's bugged on this server and is getting modified, I will endeavor to Nerf this with all my power, because that is not classic.

But in the long run, a cleric epic will save more time and end up getting you more loot.

If only one class epic were allowed to resist. From a raider and grouper standpoint, cleric epic would be winner hands down.

[nuuki]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. Bard - no other epic is as class changing or offers as much diversity as the bard epic moving bards from mana batteries to front line fighters
2. Cleric - streamlines one of the class defining features and makes it manaless
3. Rogue - high backstabs, check, haste, check, AP buff, check
4. Ranger - like a rogue, without backstabs
5. Magician - revolutionary pet, but pets are only a percentage of what mages do considering nukes, rods, and coth
6. Warrior - one of the best taunt procs in game OR one of the best 2h DPS weapons in game. neat gimmick.
7. Paladin - taunt proc isn't class defining, but it's good. have stuns from other sources.
8. Monk - magic fists that you can click for haste when no other haste is available. that's cool.
9. Druid - a dot click for soloing with a snare component
10. Shaman - a dot click for soloing with no snare
11. Enchanter - they have the opposite problem of the cleric. haste is nice, but VoG has better stats and WR is faster. the spell also has stacking problems, but you will still cast it a lot on raids
12. Wizard - the mana regen and shield are nice, but are both kind of insignificant in combat
13. ShadowKnight - probably most useful for its 2h bash, but then only really benefits races without slam
14. Necromancer - it's a free snare/dot, but they already get snare/dots and it does not stack with root

Thank you sir this is awesome