Most Valuable Class - Page 8

Daldolma · #1 02-03-2014, 02:07 AM

Bards are getting way too much love. They can do a lot of things, but they're really unnecessary for a group's optimal performance. An enchanter is the best class in the game for DPS, CC, and tanking (pet). A shaman is the best class in the game for slowing. A cleric is the best class in the game for healing. A monk is the best melee class in the game.

That's everything you need. There's almost never a scenario where you're going to be better off with a bard than one of the above classes. Most of the arguments people are making in favor of bards apply to enchanters, but enchanters are better at it.

The only scenarios where a bard is going to be more useful than one of the above classes is if you need Selo's (basically just for pulling raid mobs) or resist songs (basically just for raid mobs, also).

Destron · #2 02-03-2014, 02:25 AM

My argument is that bards can CC just as well as chanters for 95% of camps on p99.

Bards can charm and bring dps the same way a chanter can. The bard can chain pull more efficiently than a monk at most camps. When the bard leaves the camp to go pull the group does not lose much dps.

Bards bring more to a group than any single class. When that class is played to it's full potential I don't see how you can make an argument for any other class.

Chanter a close 2nd for sure, but I think Bards have to be at the top of the list here due to the number of tools available.

Splorf22 · #3 02-03-2014, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bards can charm and bring dps the same way a chanter can.

When the puller brings two, a bard will charm one for 30s while the group kills the first one.

Meanwhile the enchanter has a permanently charmed hasted dual-wielding pet that fights both mobs.

2x for time, 2x for dual wielding, 1.5x for haste = 6x as much charmed pet damage.

And this is really the rub: if it wasn't for charm being WTF op, Enchanters, Shamans, and Bards would all be about equal in groups, with a slight edge to the bard.

Daldolma · #4 02-03-2014, 02:43 AM

Most of your premises are false. Bards can't CC as well as a good enchanter, particularly at the higher end. But even at the lower end, a good enchanter is a more effective CC'er than an equally good bard.

Bards can't charm nearly as effectively as enchanters can, either. Not even close. Their charm breaks every 3 ticks, and they can't load their pets with huge haste. They have much less control over their charms and that severely limits their charm options. Bard charm is more of a CC tool than anything else.

And your whole argument for bard chain pulling revolves around the fact that bards aren't as useful as their counterparts. You're right, the group loses far less with a bard out pulling than with a monk out pulling. Think about that.

You say bards bring more than anyone else, but that's not really a virtue unless they're the best at the things they bring. An enchanter is better at tanking, DPS, CC, and haste. The things that set a bard apart are Selo's and resist songs, but those aren't terribly useful in a group setting. Hell, a ranger can tank, heal, snare, CC (root), buff, slow (with epic), and DPS. But they suck at all of it.

Fael · #5 02-03-2014, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Most of your premises are false. Bards can't CC as well as a good enchanter, particularly at the higher end. But even at the lower end, a good enchanter is a more effective CC'er than an equally good bard.

Bards can't charm nearly as effectively as enchanters can, either. Not even close.

Of course bards are not as good as enchanters. But was that the question? Certainly I would think enchanters and shamen are the best class for all types of situations. But if its a normal kunark exp group, I'd personally rather have a bard for pulling/tanking/charm,etc and an enchanter in the group for charm dps, mez, mana. I don't think you would need or want a shamen in that sort of situation. Why would you, they can just duo or trio?

Bards may not be the best, but a well played bard stands a great chance to make any given exp group go efficiently. The same can prob be said of enchanters and monks.
Or any really good puller with knowledge of how the zone pathing works, regardless of class.

Dolic

Fael · #6 02-03-2014, 01:20 PM

most importantly, i have a lot more fun playing a bard in a group setting than an enchanter or shamen, regardless of the fact that they are not as powerful.

Dolic

Splorf22 · #7 02-03-2014, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fael [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

most importantly, i have a lot more fun playing a bard in a group setting than an enchanter or shamen, regardless of the fact that they are not as powerful.

Dolic

My bard was super fun to play, except I couldn't chat at all.

Tenlaar, what we are trying to tell you is that 95% of groups will do better if you flip the bard for an enchanter. The idea that enchanter is some sort of a gimmick class is ridiculous. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it is the truth.

bled12345 · #8 02-03-2014, 01:40 PM

So much enchanter love in this thread lol.

thread title "most valuable class"

way back in 1999, I didn't even really know what enchanters did exactly asides from the opening CGI sequence, so had no care if they were in the group or not. All I knew was that their pet looked cool, but was super shitty haha.

So back to thread title "most valuable class"

Playing for hundreds and hundreds of hours (sigh) on p99, on multiple characters, enchanters were always nice to have, not need to have when I was building groups.

So back to the thread title "most valuable class"

How can a class be the MVP in a group, if they are nice to have and not a need to have? :P

Fael · #9 02-03-2014, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My bard was super fun to play, except I couldn't chat at all.

Tenlaar, what we are trying to tell you is that 95% of groups will do better if you flip the bard for an enchanter. The idea that enchanter is some sort of a gimmick class is ridiculous. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it is the truth.

Naga Twelve button mouse bro!

Dolic

Daldolma · #10 02-03-2014, 02:48 AM

I don't mean to dismiss bards. They're very useful and a great class. In the absence of an enchanter, they would be the best class for many different camps.

But if we're talking about a vacuum where you can have whatever class you want and whatever group set-up you want, bards are usually not going to be a part of an optimal group. Enchanters are going to be more valuable in almost all settings.