Unbrella

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Metallikus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think Rogaen began the process by showing your ass that your guild makes up less than 3% --- AKA THE MOTHERFUCKING MINORITY!

To be fair, Metallikus, they're in the process of trying to rules-lawyer what "minority" means in this situation by requesting to erroneously use the number of actively raiding players as the denominator in that percentage.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by MaksimMazor [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm sorry I didn't think the non raiders were included among dragon killing discussion

Are they not allowed to kill TMO's dragons some day?

And you accuse the casuals of entitlement? LOL

[Daldolma]

y'all are so fucked.

big rog ain't blind, he's in year 3 of kunark with the raid scene completely shut down and he's still got server pop of 900 at 4PM PST on a thursday.

your leverage doesn't exist. tmo means far less to this server than y'all seem to think you do

[TWDL_Prexus]

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why does that matter?

Why is raiding the only fucking thing you guys think is important?

Hello there are 12k other people on the server enjoying things other than raiding.

Jesus Christ, Rogean is the man. Seriously, thank you for everything you do and put up with in EqEmu and P1999.

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So you're saying that some players, despite not being a part of the raid scene now, should at no time in the future be part of that raid scene and thus shouldn't have a voice in shaping the future raid scene of this server? Sounds a bit elitist to me.

Every single player from Alarti to the level 3 newb down in Crushbone has a stake in this server. Their voices should be nothing less than equal. Or are you wanting to squelch your future epic MQ customers? Who gave you the right to decide your "voice" is worth "more"?

The point I am making is that not every lowbie and player on this server will participate in the raid scene. I do not have those numbers, obviously, but philosophically, the point stands. You have people who are chronic altaholics who will never raid, you have the neckbeards, and everything in between. However, we are talking about the endgame. Those who do not meaningfully participate currently, are not likely to participate, and those who are unable to participate all should have varying weights assigned to their voice.

The opposite is also true. Should an issue arrise that only affects casuals as opposed to raiders, their voice should carry more weight as to that issue. Please keep in mind that this is my opinion, and I understand that there is an alternative and popular view. It's essentially legal realism versus legal positivism which boils down to "is every voice equal no matter what, or should some groups, by virtue of their situation, be given more weight?"

To frame the issue: In treaty negotiations on the law of the sea should, say South Sudan, wield as much diplomatic influence as England, Japan, or any other country with a much larger interest in the waterways? Most governments have accepted the realism angle that a group's voice should not be severed from its situation. I'm not saying that we should just ignore the majority of the server in favor of TMO, FE, and IB. I'm simply making the point that situation, stake, and standing are valid considerations when weighing an actor's voice.

[Thulack]

Originally Posted by Rogean [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why does that matter?

Why is raiding the only fucking thing you guys think is important?

Hello there are 12k other people on the server enjoying things other than raiding.

Thank you sir [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Pan]

We'd all do well to remember that we're guests here. We're entitled to nothing.

[Prismaticshop]

OP obviously got their jimmies rustled by Brella

GG brella

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by Frieza_Prexus [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point I am making is that not every lowbie and player on this server will participate in the raid scene. I do not have those numbers, obviously, but philosophically, the point stands. You have people who are chronic altaholics who will never raid, you have the neckbeards, and everything in between. However, we are talking about the endgame. Those who do not meaningfully participate currently, are not likely to participate, and those who are unable to participate all should have varying weights assigned to their voice.

The opposite is also true. Should an issue arrise that only affects casuals as opposed to raiders, their voice should carry more weight as to that issue. Please keep in mind that this is my opinion, and I understand that there is an alternative and popular view. It's essentially legal realism versus legal positivism which boils down to "is every voice equal no matter what, or should some groups, by virtue of their situation, be given more weight?"

To frame the issue: In treaty negotiations on the law of the sea should, say South Sudan, wield as much diplomatic influence as England, Japan, or any other country with a much larger interest in the waterways? Most governments have accepted the realism angle that a group's voice should not be severed from its situation. I'm not saying that we should just ignore the majority of the server in favor of TMO, FE, and IB. I'm simply making the point that situation, stake, and standing are valid considerations when weighing an actor's voice.

So, you're saying TMO is entitled to more of a voice than the majority of the server when it comes to the raid scene because they prevented much of that majority from participating in it at that insane, extreme level? Tell me more about this sense of entitlement.

[Pan]

The only clear bargaining chip that any of us have here is withdrawing our consent - i.e. not logging in.

It's clear from the numbers that the lack of / loss of high-end guilds will not affect the server population in any meaningful way...and that's part of the equation that many of those in the negotiations are blind to.

Should all of the top tier / population-heavy guilds unanimously withdraw their consent and refuse to log on, guess what might happen? The population would be remarkably similar (not accounting for those who might join up / come back for/to a healthier raid scene) and dragons would still die regularly.

I don't think you negotiators understand that. I/you/we don't have a lot of chips at this table - if any.

All he's asked is for you all to get together and figure out how to distribute the resources in, by his definition, a more sane way. Yet you still talk of "giving mobs away" like you own them.

What's wrong with you that you cannot understand the construct under which you are operating?