the EVIDENCE that GOD exists is the FACT that EXISTENCE EXISTS

[Eliseus]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

nobody cares about your dumb story

No one cares about your face, but I deal with it everyday.

[hatelore]

I wonder how many Atheist convert to Christianity or some other religion while they are dying on there death bed. Hmmm, something to ponder.

[Daldolma]

not even devils advocate, just don't like intellectual inconsistency

you're drawing distinctions that don't matter. whether the us and ussr and nazi germany were ostensibly secular or actually secular is as relevant as whether medieval europe was actually christian or just using a guise of christianity

if someone told you the spanish inquisition wasn't true christianity but was instead power politics operating under a guise of righteousness, you'd slap that shit out of here and rightfully so.

but then don't pussy out when atrocities happen in states that have claimed to discard state religion in order to operate on secular motives

hitchens is praising the secular shift of government that has allowed for freedom of religious (and anti-religious) speech. in the same breath, he's invoking the thousands of years of horrors committed by supposedly religious governments and stating that we should never forgive them for what they did while in power. if we're going to be even-minded, then we should talk about what else came with this supposed secular shift. have we rooted out or at least lessened the atrocities seen in less secular times?

no. atrocities continue on par with the worst of the past and supposedly secular governments have been some of the worst offenders. blaming religion is a cop out.

[Hasbinbad]

Your entire argument is predicated on the idea that the atrocities you mention came because of the secular shift in the same way that the advances hitchens mentions, which I dispute, and I have said why. Everything follows from that, which is false.

You accuse me of intellectual inconsistency. I accuse you of intellectual sloth.

[Hasbinbad]

The secular shift hitchens is talking about is within the scientific community, not within the dictator community.

[Hasbinbad]

Generalizations are a PITA tho right?

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your entire argument is predicated on the idea that the atrocities you mention came because of the secular shift in the same way that the advances hitchens mentions, which I dispute, and I have said why. Everything follows from that, which is false.

on the contrary, my entire argument is that the atrocities hitchens is so eager to ascribe to religion were not in any way diluted or lessened by a secular shift

i'm not saying secularism caused the atrocities of the 20th century. i'm saying a shift away from state religion and toward secular government did nothing to curb them. whether it was done for zeus, jesus, allah, the proletariat, aryan nation, or freedom didn't really impact the scope or magnitude of crimes against humanity

[Hasbinbad]

Oh I see.

Well why didn't you just say that in the first place?

Let me chew on that and get back to you, I'm kind of in a rush. Wanted to acknowledge tho.

[finalgrunt]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

on the contrary, my entire argument is that the atrocities hitchens is so eager to ascribe to religion were not in any way diluted or lessened by a secular shift

i'm not saying secularism caused the atrocities of the 20th century. i'm saying a shift away from state religion and toward secular government did nothing to curb them. whether it was done for zeus, jesus, allah, the proletariat, aryan nation, or freedom didn't really impact the scope or magnitude of crimes against humanity

They all shared the concept of fanaticism. Every time some people came to the conclusion they were better than their neighbors for whatever reason they thought, it didn't end well.

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

on the contrary, my entire argument is that the atrocities hitchens is so eager to ascribe to religion were not in any way diluted or lessened by a secular shift

i'm not saying secularism caused the atrocities of the 20th century. i'm saying a shift away from state religion and toward secular government did nothing to curb them. whether it was done for zeus, jesus, allah, the proletariat, aryan nation, or freedom didn't really impact the scope or magnitude of crimes against humanity

ok so.

In my humble opinion: "people governing themselves without the overriding and overwhelming, pervasive and insidious nature of religion influencing every aspect of their lives" hasn't yet had it's day in court. We're still in the trasition phase. We've had possibly tens of thousands of years under the bondage of superstition, and the modern scientific movement to explain the nature of the universe in real terms is barely 100 years old, at the fullest extent of any rhetoric about what constitutes modern understanding. Religion still in fact holds sway in may places on earth. We haven't had a "shift away from state religion," but rather we are currently shifting. You claim that this shift hasn't diluted tyranny, but my friend, you're trying to dilute the ocean with a lake. It's going to take time.