First Aggro + 15

[Starklen]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is why I continue to scratch my head when IB says "FFA will save teh raids!". They were the ones who started the abnormal camping methods in the first place. I really don't understand why they bitch about camping so much now. They sure didn't have a problem with it when their druids were doing it for them and they could be logged off doing other shit. Must have been nice huh guys.

Nobody seems to remember this who is in their guild for some reason. Now that their entire guild has to do what their druids were doing for months, suddenly it's "cheap". Every time Alawen brings his kleenex to a thread I want to scream at the guy "YOU camped mobs for 6 months 12 hours a day. Please STFU"

A handful of druids rotating in/out tracking mobs is comparable to an entire raid force camping a mob. Keep scratching that head.

[Skope]

If you've had instances of GM intervention with the rules we have now, how in the world do you think these will fair? Thinking it will smooth itself out in the long run is wishful thinking.

I'm all for a system that allows and creates competition. My problem is that this system does nothing to do away with camping, and promotes competition in the wrong way. It opens HUGE doors for controversy and a serious, very ugly raid scene that will unravel due to this FFA format. If it's gotten this ugly with people not even playing their characters for 4 days at a time, just picture 100+ people in a single zone, a dead dragon, 30+ petitions and GMs trying to sort out what the hell just happened. There is absolutely no way this resolution helps and improves on the current scenario. It's a BIG BIG step in the wrong direction!

[Akame]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you've had instances of GM intervention with the rules we have now, how in the world do you think these will fair? Thinking it will smooth itself out in the long run is wishful thinking.

I'm all for a system that allows and creates competition. My problem is that this system does nothing to do away with camping, and promotes competition in the wrong way. It opens HUGE doors for controversy and a serious, very ugly raid scene that will unravel due to this FFA format. If it's gotten this ugly with people not even playing their characters for 4 days at a time, just picture 100+ people in a single zone, a dead dragon, 30+ petitions and GMs trying to sort out what the hell just happened. There is absolutely no way this resolution helps and improves on the current scenario. It's a BIG BIG step in the wrong direction!

You see now the main problem that spawned this would be allowing that kind of behavior to stand at all. I am perfectly ok with KSer's and false reports and the like being a several weeks suspension offense, but that spawns from the fact that I know that I know how to raid in this game without doing either.

[Skope]

The GM's don't want to intervene. The reason we have rules in the first place is to prevent the GM's from coming in to intervene. If we were to play by these rules you might as well issue a permanent GM to every zone that's got a target people will look to lay claim to.

Suicide Kings was a better idea. It needed refining, but at least it promotes competition, tracking, and can actually do away with camping in a manner that avoids mass controversy and promotes a healthy raiding atmosphere.

[Akame]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The GM's don't want to intervene. The reason we have rules in the first place is to prevent the GM's from coming in to intervene. If we were to play by these rules you might as well issue a permanent GM to every zone that's got a target people will look to lay claim to.

Suicide Kings was a better idea. It needed refining, but at least it promotes competition, tracking, and can actually do away with camping in a manner that avoids mass controversy and promotes a healthy raiding atmosphere.

But without GM enforcement there are no punishments that will actually give the population enough of an aversion to not following the rules to actually stick to it. At least picking GM enforcement that is already in the original play nice rule set means we aren't creating any type of punishments that didn't exist in classic EQ.

[Skope]

Originally Posted by Akame [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But without GM enforcement there are no punishments that will actually give the population enough of an aversion to not following the rules to actually stick to it. At least picking GM enforcement that is already in the original play nice rule set means we aren't creating any type of punishments that didn't exist in classic EQ.

What don't you get? the GM's don't want to intervene! they don't want to babysit! And they've said it numerous times before! The reason we even have rules is so they don't have to sift through countless petitions. They're busy with programming, handling bugs and trying to catch cheats. The last thing they would want is to babysit us raiders in a zone. The current 'play nice' rules would do what exactly? They're a deterrent, but when you have to watch fraps, sift through countless of screenshots and still don't have enough proof to pinpoint a responsible party then all the parties involved are essentially screwed.

[G13]

Originally Posted by astarothel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would having an IB or DA tag above my head make you take me any more seriously? No, not really.

Either tag above my head would just result in the other side flinging shit for that. You'd accuse me of being an IB lapdog for preferring druid tracking, and then now you shit on me lumping me in with guilds that don't put forth an effort to call timers or put in time.

I never accused you of anything genius. I wasn't even talking directly to you in my post. Your quote was just another example of the stupidity that is this thread, and other threads just like it. I was actually agreeing with you. These people are bickering over semantics that all lead to the same conclusion. Camping.

I put forth a raid proposal that you came out and said you thought could work (Suicide Kings), and then here you are pissing all over me when I was disproving FFA's claim shortened raid target windows would free up 85% of the time from camping.

I never said SK could work. You still don't get it and you never will. No proposal is ever going to work. Get that through your head. Here, let me make it simple.

FFA = camping cluserfuck. KS clusterfuck. Training clusterfuck

Current Rules = Camping clusterfuck

This first 15 to aggro = completely exploitable. Competing guilds camping the spawn point with bard AOE. Rogean called to every boss fight to determine "who got first aggro". Yea sounds like a fun.

This COULD be an interesting raid scene if the other guilds would actually DO something instead of farming froggy crowns and planar trash for once. It's like nobody has read the rules or wants to devise ways to compete in the current system. You all act like you have to camp or something to get mobs. You don't. You just have to be there when they spawn. You can call timers. You can roll call. No camping is needed. Nobody does it though. They don't even try. They don't check on other guild's positions and try to take advantage of a situation when they make a mistake. They don't roll call. They don't call timers. Apply pressure. Nothing.

None of you jackasses truly understand what Nilbog has been saying. Make up your own raiding system that is manageable. I.E one that doesn't involve Nilbog. FFA would involve Nilbog every time a mob spawned. The current system for the most part leave the GMs out of it apparently. Nobody wants to think outside the box though. You all want to create a raiding system that is hindered by the glaring flaws of the game. That is never going to work. Go ahead and speak of the good ole days. it doesn't change the fact that EQ end game is pathetic and broken beyond repair. As MMO players, we've far outgrown this type of game with such limited content. It's painfully obvious.

It could be fixed, but it would take radical ideas that every guild would have to agree on for the overall health of the server. We could create a system that is competitive, fun, and challenging. Won't happen though. Want to know why? Because people in IB and DA just want to kill mobs and get their loot. They don't care how. How doesn't matter. All that matters is they get their kills. I'm not saying anything positive or negative in relation to that. It is just the simple truth. That's why I said before the only way shit is going to change is if DA and IB create new raid rules. Because it's FACT.

You cry about what IB did for months when druid tracking was always done on live. Why? Because if your guild didn't do it, you'd never know when a target was up. Abnormal camping methods are a tracking druid? Claim camping is inevitable, then say that there is no difference between one person tracking and dropping fifteen campers in a zone. There's about 14 people difference last I checked.

14 people is nothing. You are acting like this is a major feat for 2 groups to log out in WC and get ported or something. Seriously, you people need to stop with this shit. It is not some insane mobilization skill to use a potion of the frost or log out at a spire/ring. End that charade please. You are not some super skilled mobilization guild because you port people from a druid ring in WC.

I don't remember crying about IB doing anything anyways. I stated the facts. Not every server had a rotating druid with batphone either. Sure there were some trackers, but we didn't have mass txt messaging like we do today. It wasn't the norm. It was more like, go check the spawn, if you could even get in the zone. You couldn't just zone into Fear and see if Cazic was up. I don't think you realize it, but back in the day you couldn't actually track Innoruuk from the zone line either. You didn't know that did you. SOE wasn't stupid.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zones.html?zstrat=68

This guy remembers it like I do.

I know that in the past I could not track Inny from zone in. If I remember oorrectly, Inny was only trackable from the tier 2 area

Which is absolutely correct. Don't want people camping Inny? Don't allow him to be tracked from zone in.

I actually think removing tracking in Hate would make it interesting. Sure you could probably stick a rogue there, but put banshees up there all the way so they can't sneak over there. There are a lot of things that could be done to shake things up. Make them interesting, but I doubt it will ever happen. If all these guilds supposedly want "competition" I would imagine they would be completely for these types of ideas. But like I said before, you guys just want your mobs. You just troll up the forums whining about 15 people camping instead of 1 to try and feel better about yourselves. We both know the only thing that mattes is who killed what.

Keep thinking IB is terrible and solely responsible for the raiding situation and that DA's shit doesn't stink. If you exclude every guild except IB and DA, that makes DA 50% of the problem.

I don't think IB is terrible. You're being defensive because you know there is truth in what I say. On the contrary, DA and IB are the only two guilds doing anything on this server worthwhile. The rest of them are useless.

A clue is not required to see that the current state of raiding is absurd.
A guild could have competed with IB when it comes to mobilization if they got their shit together. Some in DA even admitted that they couldn't compete mobilization-wise with IB in another thread. The evolution of raiding DA chose, camping, killed competition more than a single tracking druid ever did or could have.

DA has beaten IB mobilization wise many times. Stop pretending like this isn't true. When IB wiped themselves in Hate, DA was there in force within 5 minutes. IB didn't bow out with dignity either. They cried to the GMs to hand them the zone. The people who wiped them. Vittra, Starklen, Gwence, and a handful of others lied to their officers and then they lied to the GMs to save their sorry asses. In Sol B you got beat by mobilization. In Fear you got beat after you wiped yourselves last week. Then your members proceeded to bug CT to crash the zone. Cyrius had to come in and kill both mobs. DA had claim and their pick of the mob, but nope, IB had to crash the zone.

I wonder why. Wouldn't have anything to do with resetting his loot tables right?

Like I said many times. Any smart guild leader knows that it's better to have 15 in the zone and a guaranteed claim that 1 druid. You can whine about it all you want, but if the lone druid method was better than what we currently have, IB would still be doing it wouldn't they.

Sitting 15+ people in a zone (or more if raid people target windows are shortened) and waiting to see which group's bards dissonance magically aggros a spawning mob first doesn't take any sort of skill, or any sort of finesse. It's not even competition, it's just whichever bard takes it to the face first.

Nothing in this game takes any sort of skill. Get that through your thick head. That's the entire point.

I play to compete. I will join a raiding guild that makes an impact when I feel that reasonable competition is possible. Right now it's a fucking sausagefest at the safespot, and as I stated earlier DA is 50% of the problem -- stop trying to make it seem like this is all IB's fault.

Yea this sounds really heroic. You play to compete or something. There are a lot of people that have been "competing" here a lot longer than you have. IB and DA are not the problem. They are devising strategies and tactics based upon the current raid rules. Scoreboard is all that counts. DA never even wrote these rules or had a hand in creating them. Like it or not, it's a strategic game. Too bad EQ is such a broken game that any scenario, or raid rule will be nothing more than an unspoken rotation at the end of the day.

Originally Posted by Akame [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Dumesh and I have been in and leading raiding guilds that raided 5+ days a week since Kunark. .

Nobody gives a fuck what Akame and Dumesh did 10 years ago. Every mfker here has been in a top end raiding guild. The best of the best. You have people from DROW, FOH, Triton, ect. in both DA and IB. You haven't done jack shit here anyways so your opinion is worthless. Do me a favor. Compete with the current guilds. Lead a raid force and rattle the cage a little bit. Use some strategy and tactics. Clear all the trash and engage Vox within 30 minutes and win with 2 guilds breathing down your neck. Kill the drakes on tier 2 in Hate and engage Innoruuk in 20 minutes. Do a WW break in Fear and then clear, buff, pull, and kill Draco in 30 minutes. Then you can come back here and pretend like you know wtf you are talking about.

[Akame]

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What don't you get? the GM's don't want to intervene! they don't want to babysit! And they've said it numerous times before! The reason we even have rules is so they don't have to sift through countless petitions. They're busy with programming, handling bugs and trying to catch cheats. The last thing they would want is to babysit us raiders in a zone. The current 'play nice' rules would do what exactly? They're a deterrent, but when you have to watch fraps, sift through countless of screenshots and still don't have enough proof to pinpoint a responsible party then all the parties involved are essentially screwed.

All parties are essentially screwed either way then, there is not enough populace interaction on these boards to merit the community blacklisting that was effective in the old world, and without GM's that are willing to enforce rules, then you might as well just keep the current plan and camp your mobs for four days, since near as I can tell there is actual (imagine that) GM enforced repercussions.

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

More senseless crap.

You're funny, you must be a stand up comedian in real life. That or you're completely ignorant of the way the world works. I'm betting the second. You still don't get it do you. Everyone on this board only represents a minority of the population of the server. You can shout here all day about how your opinion matters more than others because of what you've done on the server and No. One. Cares.

The truth is that only a handful of the players who post (who are already only a handful of the players who play) even pay attention to the raiding populace threads and topics. And none of that handful is agreeing with you, and I'm guessing that the others that don't pay attention to the thread, and the larger collective that doesn't even care for our existence would not agree with your assumptions that you know whats best for them solely on the fact that you play more than they do and are in a raiding guild.

So sit down, shut up, and help US, come up with a solid system that is best for everyone. Because if you don't, there will be no focus in this minority and without focus and a goal, nothing is going to get done and you will still be camping 15+ in a zone for four days straight by the time Velious rolls around.

[astarothel]

Originally Posted by G13 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You couldn't just zone into Fear and see if Cazic was up. I don't think you realize it, but back in the day you couldn't actually track Innoruuk from the zone line either. You didn't know that did you. SOE wasn't stupid.

When guilds are clearing trash regularly (which currently happens here, and happened all the time back on live too) you don't exactly need to hug the zl to track do you? Trash respawns? Mulch it down with a group and go back to tracking. Or did you maybe forget that is how it was done? Triggered trash respawn? Don't even need to track to know the target's up.

Keep splooging everywhere, you'll be sure to hit something. Eventually.

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by astarothel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When guilds are clearing trash regularly (which currently happens here, and happened all the time back on live too) you don't exactly need to hug the zl to track do you? Trash respawns? Mulch it down with a group and go back to tracking. Or did you maybe forget that is how it was done? Triggered trash respawn? Don't even need to track to know the target's up.

Keep splooging everywhere, you'll be sure to hit something. Eventually.

I don't know about other guilds but I know that we regularly clear the zone to gear up members and have fun for a few hours between camping sessions. Then we just chill till the next respawn. Kinda how it works already \o/