EQNext Discussion

[liveitup1216]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Well, according to their current rhetoric, they are going to "have both".

Huh? Both of what?

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Huh? Both of what?

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can do that still according to the dev panel. You can play a highly specialized support and still be wanted. They're taking away the need to always have a tank/healer/support/dps through playstyle and the advanced AI combat.

If you want to play straight up super support you can. You can still heal, or tank too. Just not in the same way as "all I'm doing is spamming heals" or "all I'm doing is keeping threat and hitting cooldowns on big damage".

Everything I'm saying is replying to the substance of your own quote! Roles, and no roles - the subject of my first reply.

Anyway, way too many of my sig banners in this thread already.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem isn't the roles themselves; its the artificial assigning of the roles, rather than the roles coming organically from the actual play that is occurring.

Last post, but this is a really interesting point. I would say that on the contrary, designing into those roles is good design. If those roles occur anyway, which they do, it makes sense to provide players with tools to carry them out. Not to do so means giving players a bunch of stuff they never use anyway, and you end up with a weirdly unsatisfying, vague gameplay experience.

On this point, roles feed into archetypes (and visa versa). It's not just the mechanics you are dealing with, but the fantasy of embodying a certain archetype. The Ranger class exists because of the fantasy created by Tolkien in LoTR. The Fighter/Warrior is as old as mythology itself and in RPGs is heavily influenced by the Conan stories. Good class design embodies strong archetypes which create strong and satisfying gameplay mechanics, and coincidentally meaningful gameplay roles. It's all interconnected.

Games that don't create or embody compelling archetypes loose a great deal. These are RPGs after all.

[liveitup1216]

No biggie I'm just trying to find a way to explain that its not no roles and roles. It's X content can be done with all damage dealers, but is probably a lot easier with a mix of damage, controllers, tanks, and healers.

That's their design intent, whether or not they pull it off is my deciding factor.

My overall sense is they're trying to revive the RPG element of MMORPG, considering the genre is more like MMOAction and very little RPG.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Last post, but this is a really interesting point. I would say that on the contrary, designing into those roles is good design. If those roles occur anyway, which they do, it makes sense to provide players with tools to carry them out. Not to do so means giving players a bunch of stuff they never use anyway, and you end up with a weirdly unsatisfying, vague gameplay experience.

On this point, roles feed into archetypes (and visa versa). It's not just the mechanics you are dealing with, but the fantasy of embodying a certain archetype. The Ranger class exists because of the fantasy created by Tolkien in LoTR. The Fighter/Warrior is as old as mythology itself and in RPGs is heavily influenced by the Conan stories. Good class design embodies strong archetypes which create strong and satisfying gameplay mechanics, and coincidentally meaningful gameplay roles. It's all interconnected.

Games that don't create or embody compelling archetypes loose a great deal. These are RPGs after all.

My greatest concern is that by removing classes from the game you would also lose a lot of character from the toon, especially when you can respec on the fly into something totally different.

From an RP point of view, respec'ing on the fly makes no sense to me. You lose all identification with who you are in the world if you can just become something different in an instant. Getting to know other players will be very difficult imo.

I guess if the game play is rich enough you will get to know someone for how they play instead of what they play, but I'm skeptical.

[liveitup1216]

I'm looking at is as if you're a warrior and come across someone willing to train you in arcane ways (from an RPG perspective), you would be unable to learn it because you decided to be a warrior?

The change in gear/weapons is an RP conundrum, but abilities wise it fits.

Keep in mind their goal is that these things will take time and effort. You don't just grind and plug points into an ability tree. You have to literally train to learn a single spell, or seek out hidden groves and trainers and tomes that are randomly generated.

Also assuming your RP choices allows. If you're a unlawful you won't become a paladin. Some race/class/faction restrictions may come into play as well. (according to the dev panel)

[Ellouelle]

IDK: my opinion on the removal of roles is that it's about damn time.

The only difference between tanking and melee dps is which side of the mob you stand on. In terms of gameplay, you're basically just a melee dps who gets attacked, and the only thing that this really affects is what stats you choose to focus on when building your character. The last time aggro management was part of tank gameplay in any mmo ever pretty much WAS classic eq. Not the case anymore in any mmo since--shit, in wow, tanks literally do as much as or more dps than actual dps.

healing on the other hand was a unique role and to some degree i understand people who lament its' loss as a dedicated role but it's not as though support isn't a part ofthings anymore. It just doesn't consist of sitting around doing nothing waiting for someone to take damage while you stare at health bars.

[liveitup1216]

People who are lamenting it's loss are the ones who haven't realized it's still in the game.

[Tiggles]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm looking at is as if you're a warrior and come across someone willing to train you in arcane ways (from an RPG perspective), you would be unable to learn it because you decided to be a warrior?

The change in gear/weapons is an RP conundrum, but abilities wise it fits.

Keep in mind their goal is that these things will take time and effort. You don't just grind and plug points into an ability tree. You have to literally train to learn a single spell, or seek out hidden groves and trainers and tomes that are randomly generated.

Also assuming your RP choices allows. If you're a unlawful you won't become a paladin. Some race/class/faction restrictions may come into play as well. (according to the dev panel)

This

[Ellouelle]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People who are lamenting it's loss are the ones who haven't realized it's still in the game.

really all they have to do is make it so that as a plate class defensive gearing scales well. boom, done. if done correctly, defensive gearing may afford you the ability to dodge less hostile attacks and thereby increase dps because you can sit and burn a lot more than someone who has to run around dodging shit.

boom youre a tank.