EQNext Discussion

[liveitup1216]

Originally Posted by Phallax [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes.

I use to thrive on being good at my ROLE! I was a support(shaman) all through EQ and a tank WoW in vanilla. And yet again a shaman in TBC and Wrath. I loved being looked upon as being almost needed at times or being highly versatile with a support class. Every player being so called 'versatile' really takes away from the fun on a PvE stand point. For PvP this 0-trinity system will work beautifully but for PvE trinity is highly needed.

You can do that still according to the dev panel. You can play a highly specialized support and still be wanted. They're taking away the need to always have a tank/healer/support/dps through playstyle and the advanced AI combat.

If you want to play straight up super support you can. You can still heal, or tank too. Just not in the same way as "all I'm doing is spamming heals" or "all I'm doing is keeping threat and hitting cooldowns on big damage".

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can do that still according to the dev panel. You can play a highly specialized support and still be wanted. They're taking away the need to always have a tank/healer/support/dps through playstyle and the advanced AI combat.

If you want to play straight up super support you can. You can still heal, or tank too. Just not in the same way as "all I'm doing is spamming heals" or "all I'm doing is keeping threat and hitting cooldowns on big damage".

Guys, this is all spin. By their own admission nothing has been concretely designed yet. What do you think they are going to say? They are the only ones to ever think of or say or try this stuff through all the many pen & paper systems and CRPG games that have ever existed till now right? The entire world of combat mechanics has been waiting for SOE to finally step in and create the perfect solution. Because you can both remove roles and maintain them in the SOE alternate universe that exists at keynotes and dev panels. In this universe where normal logic and cause and effect apply, for those of us who have actually tried to build what they are confidently hyperbolizing over and watched others try to do to the tune of many years and many many millions of dollars and more than several now defunct games companies, it's surprisingly enough not possible to do and not do something simultaneosly.

They are going to trip over their own rhetoric at some point, and deliver a game that is one thing or the other (and from the look of their arcade/action combat graphics, it's going to be the other). That or it will fail in both regards and be something ineffectually inbetween. The rules of min/maxing and player ingenuity guarantee this outcome. Heck, their obvious reliance upon and borrowing from other games makes it inevitable.

Originally Posted by Trojanman [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I love the art direction. As a visual effects artist and television producer, I think the use of color and mood are very appealing. I think a lot of people that disagree don't know what they actually want, and were ready to say it was crap before ever seeing it. Gamers make poor game designers.

With respect to your experience, I couldn't disagree more. A designer is always a gamer first. If not, he/she has no business designing anything. I've worked with more than a few and some of them have sunk entire projects with their ignorance and total lack of context. I say the same thing about artists, animators, coders, and sound guys in games - they should all be avid game players. Artists particularly run the risk of focussing on artistic minutiae and personal aesthetic to the detriment of the game as a whole. Back in the day it was people who loved games who worked on them, and that love matters in so many ways in all areas of game development. It informs everything from gameplay mechanics to decisions on code structure, colour palettes, character movement, and whether or not to implement a cash store. It's not that way anymore, and it shows IMO.

[LordSterben]

Originally Posted by Trojanman [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I love the art direction. As a visual effects artist and television producer, I think the use of color and mood are very appealing. I think a lot of people that disagree don't know what they actually want, and were ready to say it was crap before ever seeing it. Gamers make poor game designers.

Your opinion will carry more weight once we know what you've produced!




Not trolling...just curious. XD

[Trojanman]

Originally Posted by LordSterben [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Your opinion will carry more weight once we know what you've produced!




Not trolling...just curious. XD

That's fair, but in the interest of /anon... I produce for a very good sports franchise.

[LordSterben]

Originally Posted by Trojanman [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's fair, but in the interest of /anon... I produce for a very good sports franchise.

Understood...but it was worth a shot lol

[liveitup1216]

You've been on p99 too long.

Also, what pen and paper game has holy trinity?

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You've been on p99 too long.

Also, what pen and paper game has holy trinity?

Have you never played D&D? By the way, the "holy trinity" is not a function of any one system. It's a logical outworking of combat and AI (particularly aggro rules). Players fall into those roles naturally no matter the system. You discover this quickly when you try to design something that actively removes them. Then you realize that by removing the possibility of those roles you have removed almost all player co-operation and combat interaction, and have either no game, a very small narrow one, or another type of game entirely.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by liveitup1216 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You've been on p99 too long.

Also, what pen and paper game has holy trinity?

Certainly not the classic PNP games I played in the 80s and 90s.

The trinity is something we learned and then got hooked on from playing EQ and other MMOs. You never needed this type of system in live PNP games because the GM controlling the enemies could act intelligently.

Its weird how we've grown to love a system that was born from problems of online gaming. The entire aggro system is not conducive to authentic RPG gaming, it was something invented to deal with very limited AI.

As long as the AI is of high enough quality (I am skeptical that it can be of this high quality---prove me wrong SOE) than the whole system can go back to more organic PNP style combat systems.

[t0lkien]

Originally Posted by fastboy21 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Certainly not the classic PNP games I played in the 80s and 90s.

Wat? D&D invented the holy trinity - Fighter, Cleric, Thief/Magic User. It was less defined due to the GM moderation, as you said, but it was certainly there. Try building a party without a healer and see how far you get, or someone with high AC (tank), or characters that can help control the fight (CC), or dish out serious damage (DPS).

As I said, these roles are natural outcomes of the structure of combat. There are analogues in many games and real life, not just MMOs.

[fastboy21]

Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wat? D&D invented the holy trinity - Warrior, Priest, Thief/Magic User. It was less defined due to the GM moderation, as you said, but it was certainly there. Try building a party without a healer and see how far you get, or someone with high AC (tank), or characters that can help control the fight (CC), or dish out serious damage (DPS).

As I said, these roles are natural outcomes of the structure of combat. There are analogues in many games and real life, not just MMOs.

I agree with you...I think we are actually saying very similar things just confusing some of the vocabulary.